Monday, April 12, 1813.

The House went again into a Committee of the whole House on the Affairs of the East India Company, Mr. Lushington in the chair.

Colonel THOMAS MUNRO was called in. The substance of his Examination is as follows:

Mr. Impey.]—Are you now in the military service of the East India Company?—I am;—At Madras,—and have been above 32 years.—I have resided in different parts of the peninsula, on the coast of Coromandel and Malabar, and in Mysore in the interior.—I was employed by the government of Madras in settling the districts ceded by the Nizam to the Company.—I had full opportunity of understanding both the character and habits of the natives.—There were no Europeans in that part of the country, except such as belonged to the Company's or King's civil or military service, and a few suttlers belonging to the army.

Are you not of opinion, that the Hindoo nation are much attached to their own modes of living and thinking?—They are.—I do not think that they are positively unchangeable, but they are as unchangeable as any thing can possibly be.—When I went into the ceded districts, they were in a state of complete anarchy.—I resided there 7 years;—during which time they were reduced into very good order.—I think it is necessary to use great caution in the selection of persons to manage, not only those districts but all districts, under the Company's government.—For districts newly reclaimed, greater caution certainly is necessary.—I think the consequence of permitting English traders of all descriptions, to range and to reside in those districts would be very dangerous to the peace of the country.—Persons newly arrived from Europe would produce greater mischief in the country than those who had been some time there, and had be- come acquainted with the habits of the natives; this is so much the case, that it is always usual when European troops, newly arrived from Europe, are sent up the country, to send a detachment of native troops along with them, to prevent their getting into disputes with the inhabitants; those disputes happen, not only with newly arrived European troops and the natives, but among all newly arrived Europeans, whether King's or Company's officers, or civil servants; a single ensign, newly arrived from Europe, going up the country to join his regiment, produces more alarm than would be occasioned by a whole regiment of veterans.—If newly arrived Europeans were permitted to enter the interior of the country, they would be likely to commit acts of violence against the religious and civil prejudices of the natives; often from ignorance, and sometimes from a contempt of such prejudices.—I think such conduct on the part of the newly arrived Europeans might occasion disturbances that would eventually be dangerous to the government of the country; but although they might at the time occasion some partial riots, I have no idea that they would occasion insurrection; they would produce that sort of discontent which might remain at rest till an enemy entered the country, when the minds of the inhabitants by such conduct would be prepared to favour the view of any invader.—Such conduct of the newly arrived Europeans would certainly have the effect of lessening the high character which Europeans now have in India.—I think the high respect entertained for the English character in India, the principal pillar of our government there; that when the respect for the European character is gone, our government cannot exist,—In case of oppression of the natives by Europeans at so great a distance as those ceded districts, I think that very few of them ever would obtain redress, because not one in twenty would ever take the trouble of going so far, or could bear the expence. In the event of a free trade, I do not think that there would be any considerable increase of the demand for European commodities among the natives of India; I do not think that this want of demand depends exactly upon the high price. The high price in India ought to have the same effect as it has in Europe; it does not in Europe prevent the general consumption of Indian commodities, it only makes people take less of them, but every person, I believe, purchases in some degree according to his circumstances; this is not the case in India, there are very few people there that purchase any European commodities; it does not depend upon a man's wealth or poverty, the wealthy man purchases no more than his poor neighbour; there is no gradation in the consumption of European commodities, depending upon the wealth of the individuals; at our principal settlements, where we have been longest established, the natives have adopted none of our habits, and scarcely use any of our commodities; the very domestics of Europeans use none of them; there are a few natives at Madras and some other places, who sometimes purchase European commodities, and fit up apartments in an European style, to receive their guests, but it is done merely, I believe, in compliment to their European friends, and what is purchased in this way by the father, is very often thrown away by the son; the consumption does not extend, but seems to remain stationary: I think there are other causes of a more permanent nature than the high price, which preclude the extension of the consumption of European articles in India; among those causes I reckon the influence of the climate, the religious and civil habits of the natives, and more than any thing else I am afraid, the excellence of their own manufactures. In this country, people who know little of India, will naturally suppose, that as the furniture of the house and the table require so much expence, a great demand will likewise be made among the natives of India for the same purposes; but a Hindoo has no table, he eats alone upon the bare ground; the whole of what may be called his table service, consists of a brass basin and an earthen plate; his house has no furniture; it is generally a low building, quadrangular, rather a shed than a house, open to the centre, with mud walls and mud floor, which is generally kept bare, and sprinkled every day with water, for coolness; his whole furniture usually consists of a mat or a small carpet, to rest upon. If he had furniture, he has no place to keep it in, it would be necessary to build a house to hold his furniture He likes this kind of house, he finds it accommodated to the climate, it is dark and cool, and he prefers it to our large buildings: again, the food of the Indian is simple, and is entirely found in his own country; his clothing is all the manufacture of his own country we cannot supply him, because while he can get it not only better but cheaper at home, it is impossible that we can enter into competition in the market.

Have you means of stating with accuracy the price of labour in the ceded districts of which you were superintendent?—I had the means, but I can only now speak from memory; during my residence there, a great number of statistical tables were drawn up by many of the most intelligent natives, containing the price of labour and subsistence; but those tables not having brought with me to Europe, I can only recollect the general result; I think that the average price of labour, in agriculture, is about 5s. a month; 5s. I think is a high average; some of the calculations made it as low as 4s. none above 6s.

Is the price of labour you have stated, more than adequate to the subsistence of the labourers, and of their families?—Not more than adequate to the subsistence of a labourer and his family: tables were also drawn up at the same time, giving a general average of the annual price of the subsistence of every class of individuals for a whole year; I can only remember now the three principal branches; in the first class, containing about one fourth of the population of a country containing 2 millions of inhabitants, they made the average per head 40s.; the second class was 27s.; this second class contained about half the population, or something about one million; a third class, containing the remainder of the population, the poorest class of people, was 18s. per head: this comprehended the whole expenditure of each individual, for clothing, food, and every other article. I do not think from all I have been able to observe personally, or to learn from reading, that there is any probability of any essential change being produced in the state of society in Hindostan unless at a very distant period; the natives seem now, in their state of society, and in all their customs, to be in much the same state as they were when we first heard of them in history. I do not think that there is any great probability of extending the consumption of the woollen manufactures of England in India, because the natives have already coarse woollens of their own, which answer all the purposes for which they require them better than those of England do; there is hardly a native of India who has not already a large piece of woollen, as it comes from the loom, which he uses something as I a highlander does his plaid, he wraps it round him to defend him from the weather, and he sleeps upon it, and it is so much cheaper than any thing which can be made in this country, that until we can very greatly reduce the price of our woollen, we shall never be able to find a market in India for it; the thermometer in the greater part of India, in the interior, is for many months in the year generally as low as from 40 to 60 in the morning, and the cold is as much felt as it is in this country, except during hard frost; the natives require warm clothing, but they have all their own coarse woollens, and many of the richer sort, who do not use those woollens, employ, in their room, quilted silk and cotton, which is both warm and light.—The common woollen which the natives generally use is a piece, as it comes from the loom, of about six or seven feet long, by four or five broad; such apiece generally costs 1s. 6d or 2s. the coarser kind; the finer kind, much of the same texture as our camlet in this country, is made of a greater length and breadth, about ten feet long, by six or seven broad; such a piece sells for 12 or 15s. but it depends a good deal, I believe, upon the markets; in some parts of the country it is dearer, in others it is cheaper: I speak with respect to Mysore.—Tippoo Sultan had a considerable quantity of European articles that he had collected from different quarters, of which, I believe, a large quantity had been sent to him from France; but he made very little use of them; they were found upon the taking of Seringapatam, most of them, in a lumber room, and I believe, many of them not unpacked. I think the market for European commodities in India certainly equal to the demand, in every part that I have seen: and much more than equal, to any probable increase which is likely to take place. The natives in India are ingenious manufacturers, and would be likely to imitate any European manufactures, for which they had any particular use, and in a very short time to carry it to such extent as to answer their own supply. They are very quick in learning all manual operations, and all arts which they think will be useful to them.

Have you the means of knowing the manner in which the Company provide the investment of piece-goods in India?—I believe the investments are provided through the agency of an European com- mercial resident, by means of advances given to the weavers, receiving in return the cloth at stated periods.—The weaver works indifferently for the Company and for private merchants, there is no distincttion whatever; he works according to the priority of advance; if he receives it first from the private merchant, he is first obliged to supply him.

Has it not come within your knowledge, that where the commercial residents have used improper authority over the weavers, that has been effectually checked by orders of the Company's government in India?—I have had myself an opportunity of seeing an instance of the kind; in taking possession of the Barramahl, the country ceded by Tippoo Sultan, in 1792, to the Company, the persons employed in the Company's investment forced the weaver to receive some advances, and to work for the Company to the exclusion of the private merchant; but as soon as the circumstance was represented to government, a stop was put to it; and I believe such a practice has never been renewed.—The Company's servants never interfere with the free price, prices are all open in every part of India.—India is full of merchants of every class, from, the pedlar up to the highest merchant; they pervade every part of the country.; there is no article for which there is the most trifling demand, whether European or Indian, that is not soon carried to the spot where the demand is, by the travelling merchants; they have correspondents in every quarter upon the coast, and in the interior, and wherever they hear of a demand, they take care to supply it immediately.—The commercial character of the Company is very high all over India; but the natives of India make no distinction between the Company and the British government, they consider the purchases made by the Company for the investments in the same light as any other purchases made for the public service, whether of supplies for the army, of tents, or grain for forts; they scarcely regard them as a commercial body; the natives of India have always been accustomed to see their own governments acting as traders, purchasing articles for the public service at a low price by requisition, and selling them again at an advanced price beyond the market rate; they now see the purchases made by the Company at a fair market price, and they are astonished at the moderation of government, so different, from what they have been accustomed to see under their own native princes: I think that the commercial character of the Company has rather contributed to raise than to depress the character of the nation with the natives of India.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Can you form a judgment what would be the consequence to the British empire in India, and the British interests in Europe, if the commercial transactions of India were separated from those hands who may exercise the sovereign power?—This is a complicated question, but I should rather think that by such a separation the power of the Company of carrying into effect their government would be very much weakened.

Can you form an opinion what may be the proportion of the Hindoos to the Mahomedan population?—I can only speak of the south of India, but of that part I can speak with some certainty, as there was a very accurate census taken of that part of Mysore which was ceded by the Nizam to the Company; the whole population amounted to nearly two millions; the proportion of Mahomedans to all the rest of the population was about 1 to 19½ I think the great mass of the population of India under the British sway is certainly both submissive and contented, both apparently and in reality; but there are many chiefs and men of rank, who held situations under the old government, who cannot be expected to remain contented under any European government by which they are themselves excluded from all high situations.—I have no doubt but the Mahommedans, if they were able, would put down the British government to-morrow, and that the Hindoos, if they were able, would put down both.—I do not conceive that the discontented part of the Mahomedans would be sufficiently powerful to effect any thing against the Company's government while the Hindoo population is satisfied.

Are there not at the different presidencies British artisans and manufacturers of almost every description of trade that is exercised in this country, such as coach-makers, carpenters, cabinet-makers upholsterers, workers in the different metals, workers in all kinds of tanned leather, tailors, and shoemakers?—I believe that all the different artisans and manufacturers enumerated in the question, are to be found at Madras, and that they will in time supply the European establishment in India with all those articles which are now sent from Europe; and that in proportion to the number of those artisans established there, the export trade of this country will be diminished.—I believe the European shoemakers have instructed many of the natives to make shoes after the European; fashion, and that the cheapness of the Indian labourer induces the European to employ him; but many of the Indian shoemakers themselves make shoes of the country leather, without any connection with Europeans; they sell them at various prices, it depends entirely upon the quality of the leather; I have seen them, I think, from 1s. a pair to 8s., made of country tanned leather.—I conceive the woollen cloths made by the natives of India, to be better adapted to the climate of that country than what we make here; they are better for suffering all the rough treatment which they receive from the natives, being thrown upon the ground, and they are likewise, I think, more water-proof.

Are the Hindoo women kept in a state of seclusion?—The Hindoo women, with the exception of one or two very small tribes, which perhaps do not form one fiftieth part of the papulation, have as much liberty, and I imagine more, than the women in Europe; I believe there are no men who have been in India, that may not see the women of all ranks, young and old, bathing every day, not only in retired places, but at large garrisons of Europeans, and without being at all alarmed at the appearance of Europeans.

Is their state that of slaves to their husbands?—Their state is not that of slaves to their husbands, they have as much influence in their families as, I imagine, the women have in this country; I often found them, when in charge of the ceded districts, very troublesome tenants as farmers; I have frequently known women of respectable families, who kept their husbands, and sons grown up, at home, and came to the cutcherry to debate about their rents.

If the European regiments were to be reduced, and the infantry of the Company's army were to consist of natives alone, what would be the effect upon the character and the efficiency of the Company's army in general, and on the European officers of native corps and sepoys in particular?—If such a separation were to take place, I am of opinion that it would tend materially to destroy the efficiency of the Company's army; it has been a part of our military policy in India to raise the European character by all possible means, to employ Europeans only in leading the assaults of all places taken by storm, and to employ them in the field in all enterprises where courage is required; by a separation of the European part of the establishment from the native, the European part of the establishment will be exclusively employed in all those services in which military renown or distinction is to be acquired: in the sepoy service, the officers cannot be employed, except in all the lower drudgery and fatigue of war; they will in consequence sink in their reputation, and will become in time little better than a kind of country militia; they will become somewhat like what the sepoys of the French government formerly were, who, being separated from the European branch of the service, were commanded by officers of an inferior description; the officers, by being excluded from all great occasions of signalizing themselves, would sink in character, and would be held in no estimation by the officers of the European part of the establishment; the sepoys whom they commanded would likewise lose their respectability, and the whole native branch of the establishment would then become no better than a native army is when commanded by Europeans under a native prince; the European officers of the sepoy establishment, excluded from all distinction, both in India and in their own country, would become discontented, and they would most probably in time, sooner or later, by means of a civil war, effect the separation of India from this country.

Is there not a considerable growth of cotton wool in different parts of India?— There is in most parts of India.— I have no doubt but that the growth might be greatly increased; there is no particular advantage to the farmer in the cultivation of cotton, he derives no more profit from it than he does from grain.—There is a great variety of kinds of cotton wool grown in India, some long staple, and some shorter, some cotton that is biennial, other that is annual.—I have no doubt but that the quality might be considerably improved by proper encouragement.—I think that the supply might be carried to any extent.

Have they not in different parts of India the seed of the cotton grown in the island of Bourbon, and may not the same be cultivated to produce cotton wool of equal quality in India?—I have only seen some small experiments made in India upon the Bourbon cotton, and I am doubtful if it can be brought to answer upon a great scale in India, in the climates to which I have been accustomed, because the Bourbon cotton does not grow without artificial watering; the Indian cotton grows without any watering, it is left entirely to the rain and dew of heaven: but it is probable that the difference of price in the Bourbon cotton might compensate for the expence of watering; there are probably districts in India where there is moisture enough to supply the want of artificial watering.

Do you think that an open trade, under the present restrictions in regard to residence, to the principal settlements of India, would be followed by any consequences likely to disturb the government and tranquillity of that country?—An open trade under the present restrictions, and supported likewise by an act of the legislature from this country, and such a trade confined to the principal establishments, could not, I apprehend, be productive of any consequences detrimental to the peace of the country; it might occasionally produce disputes at those principal settlements, but the European authorities already established there would be quite sufficient to controul them.

Do you conceive that the number of Europeans now in India would be greatly augmented by the establishment of an open trade?—I imagine that at the first opening of the trade, the number of Europeans would be very considerably augmented; but I imagine that, by degrees, that number would limit itself to the demand of the trade; that no person could remain in India, unless Europeans employed either in trade themselves or as agents for commercial houses; they could not possibly subsist by manufacturing, on account of the superior skill of the natives; and if the trade was not greatly increased beyond its present extent, I conceive that the European settlers in that country could not, for any length of time, be greatly increased.

Do you think it possible that any considerable portion of Europeans can maintain themselves in India, so as to colonize that country?—The Europeans at present, by law, cannot become proprietors of land in India; they cannot be manufacturers, on account of the superior skill and economy of the natives; they are therefor excluded from almost every other means of subsisting themselves, except by trade; and I therefore conceive that their numbers never could augment so greatly as to make them what might be called a colony.

Then the Committee is to understand, that in your opinion, if the colonization of India were desirable, it is not practicable?—I do not think that the colonization of India, under the existing regulations, by which an European in India cannot become a proprietor of the native soil, is practicable; and supposing it to be desirable, and that that law was repealed, I hardly imagine that even then they could colonize to any extent; they would be borne down by the superior population of the natives, more industrious and more economical than themselves.—I acquired a very complete knowledge of the character, both of the Mahomedan and Hindoo population; and from all I have been able to observe, I have very little hope of any material increase being produced, except at some very distant period, upon the export of our own manufactures, even if the price is reduced; because I do not apprehend that there is likely to be such a reduction as can bring our manufactures into competition with those that the natives require and can produce in their own country: it has been. sometimes said, that the natives have a prejudice against the manufactures of Europe; the Hindoos have no prejudices against the use of any thing that they can convert to an useful purpose, whether European or native manufacture, it is pure as it conies from the hand of the workman to all Hindoos; but they have one prejudice which I believe also is a very common one in this country, against the paying a higher price for a worse commodity, and until we can undersell them in such articles as they now require for their own use, we have no hope of extending the use of our own manufactures in India; it is entirely a question of price; whenever we can undersell the Hindoos in any article which they require, it will find its way into the interior of the country without much help from the British merchants; it will find its way to the interior in spite of all regulations to prevent it.—I have no doubt but that the possession of the means of purchase would tend greatly to facilitate the consumption of European articles in India; but I imagine that the first use which the Hindoos would make of the improvement of their own circumstances, would be to purchase a larger quantity of their own manufactures, which are so much better adapted to their climate, and so much superior in beauty to ours—I apprehend that a free trade, so far as it encouraged the manufactures and raw produce of the country, would tend to increase the prosperity of the inhabitants; and I have no doubt but in one article in particular, that of cotton, an increasing demand would be very beneficial to the country. I imagine that in seasons of scarcity very large supplies of rice might be obtained from India.—I imagine that an open trade, restricted, to the principal settlements, under such regulations as might be established, would be productive of an increase to the prosperity of the country, but that that would be very slow and very gradual: with regard to civilization, I do not exactly understand what is meant by the civilization of the Hindoos; in the higher branches of science, in the knowledge of the theory and practice of good government, and in an education, which, by banishing prejudice and superstition, opens the mind to receive instruction of every kind, from every quarter, they are much inferior to Europeans: but if a good system of agriculture, unrivalled manufacturing skill, a capacity to produce whatever can contribute to convenience or luxury; schools established in every village, for teaching, reading, writing and arithmetic; the general practice of hospitality and charity amongst each other; and above all, a treatment of the female sex, full of confidence, respect and delicacy, are among the signs which denote a civilized people, then the Hindoos are not inferior to the nations of Europe; and if civilization is to become an article of trade between the two countries, I am convinced that this country will gain by the import cargo.

When you speak of such regulations as might be suggested for carrying on a free trade, so defined by you, without any danger to our possessions in India, what sort of regulations have you in contemplation?—The detail of those regulations would perhaps be more extensive than I could immediately mention; but among them I should continue those that now exist in India, supported by similar regulations established in this country, which should leave no hope of any person being enabled to reside in India, without the licence of government, or of his being enabled to remain there after he should by his conduct have made it necessary to remove him; it might be necessary to oblige masters of vessels going out to India, to account for all their passengers and crew, and to bring back all who were not permitted by licence to remain in the country; there might be some other regulations, which I cannot at present suggest; but I have no doubt that, by restraining the trade to the three principal establishments, there would be no difficulty in preserving the peace of the country and the security of the government. If every person in the United Kingdom were allowed to go to India, and to what part of the coast he pleased, I am of opinion that very great danger would arise to the security of our possessions in that country; there would be constant disturbances at all the little sea-ports upon the coast; those disturbances might not immediately affect the stability of the government, but they would greatly tend, at a future period of war, or of the invasion of an enemy, to facilitate the overthrow of our power, by rendering the minds of the natives disaffected to the British government.

The Chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again. [Withdrew.]

The Speaker acquainted the House, that he had received from general the marquis of Wellington the following Letter in return to the Thanks of this House, of the 3d of December last.

"Sir, Frenada, March 22, 1813.

"I have the honour of receiving your letters of the 4th December and 4th February last, in which you inclosed the resolutions of the House of Commons conveying the approbation of the House of the conduct of the general officers, officers, and troops, under my command, Portuguese as well as his Majesty's subjects, during the late campaign in the peninsula, and particularly in the battle of Salamanca, which I have had the satisfaction of communicating to those concerned.

"I beg that you will do me the favour to make my acknowledgments to the House for the favour with which they have again viewed my conduct in my endeavours to serve his Majesty and his allies, and for the honour which they have conferred upon me by their approbation.

"I beg likewise that you will accept my most grateful thanks for the handsome terms in which you have conveyed to me the sense of the House.

"I have the honour to be, with the greatest respect, your much obliged and most obedient humble servant,

"WELLINGTON."

"The right hon. Charles Abbot,

Speaker of the House of Commons, &c."