before the admission of witnesses to the bar, wished to call the attention of the Committee to the stage at which they had arrived, of the proceeding before them. He apprehended that there was but one wish on all sides; namely, that the enquiry should be conducted in such a manner as to give the fairest opportunity to all parties to establish their respective claims, and yet in such a way as to give as little interruption as possible to the general business of the country in parliament. It had happened in the course of the proceedings on that subject, as it had happened in the course of the former proceedings of a similar description, that they had been found much to interrupt the general business of parliament, while, at the same time, they had themselves been very much interrupted by the general business. When, on former occasions, a similar embarrassment had been experienced, parliament had had recourse to an effective mode of relief. In the investigations into the Slave Trade, in the year 1791, after the proceedings had been commenced in a Committee of the whole House, and after the evidence to a certain extent had been heard at the bar, the whole course of the affair was found to be so embarrassing that the Committee were compelled to report to the House that it would be expedient to refer the inquiry to a Committee above stairs, open to all members, and sitting at hours which a Committee of the whole House would not appropriate to the investigation. It must be evident to all who heard him that, in the present instance, both the investigation itself and the general business of parliament had been much interrupted and embarrassed by the inquiry at the bar; that inquiry had proceeded for about a fortnight, and yet the condition of it was, that (as he was informed) not half the witnesses on the part of the East India Company had been hitherto examined. When the examination of these witnesses had closed, there would necessarily be a large body of evidence brought forward by the parties adverse to the claims of the Company; and there were also a variety of points connected with the general shipping interest, on which it was indispensible to elicit information in the shape of evidence. Under all these circumstances, it appeared to him that to follow the precedent to which he had alluded, would be to afford the fairest opportunity of giving satisfaction to all parties. It would afford the fairest opportunity of obtaining full information as to the various bearings of that great and important question, and of avoiding the precipitation of the decision upon it, before that full information had been so obtained; and on the other hand it would prevent either unnecessary delay in the examination, or interference with the general business of the country. There would be another advantage attendant on referring the investigation to a committee out of the House. Such a committee might sit, notwithstanding any adjournment of the House itself. He certainly did not entertain any sanguine hope that a Select Committee would be induced to sit throughout the approaching holidays; but perhaps such a committee might be satisfied not to allow their holidays to be co-extensive with those of the House. But even if he were wholly disappointed in this expectation, still the great point for which all parties must be desirous, would be gained by the creation of such a committee; namely, that the inquiry would assuredly go on every day on which parliament sat from eleven o'clock in the morning to the usual hour at which the House assembled. Let the Committee consider what must be the result, if the inquiry before them were to be suspended, as it necessarily must be, on the occurrence of general business of great moment. The discussion of the Catholic Bill, for instance, would soon come on, and then the East India investigation could no longer be permitted to be a preliminary proceeding; but the whole and undivided attention of the House must be devoted to the important question that would be before them.—He trusted, therefore, that the Committee would so dispose of the business as to render the attainment of these two great objects compatible. He allowed that he had understood, in the course of private conversation with some hon. gentlemen, that doubts were entertained whether the public did not derive great benefit from the manner in which the inquiry had hitherto been conducted, in consequence of the impression made in the Committee, and the attention which the proceeding before a committee of the whole House had excited. If these doubts had any solid foundation, he would say no more on the subject; but really as far as his own observation had extended, he did not perceive any of the benefits which had been described. He did not perceive that the attendance had been such as had been stated to him. In saying this, he did not mean to cast any reproach on the absentees. It was within his perfect knowledge, that in all former enquiries of that nature, many honourable members preferred reading the evidence taken verbatim, by the short-hand writer, to hearing it at the bar; and it did not seem to him, that in the present instance, there had been any greater disposition manifested to obtain information on the subject by a personal attendance. On the contrary, much interruption had been occasioned in several instances by the arrival at a late hour of the Committee of honourable members who came to be present at the transaction of the general business, but who impeded the proceedings by putting questions to the witnesses which had been satisfactorily answered at an earlier period of the evening. He was aware that a similar inconvenience would attend a committee above stairs; but it would not exist to so great an extent, and this paramount advantage would be gained; namely, that the inquiry would be carried on in the most convenient mode, as well as in the mode that would be most compatible with the other duties of parliament. It was in vain, in his opinion, to hope that the investigation could be allowed to occupy four or five hours of every successive day, unless the precedent set in the case of the slave trade were adopted, by the appointment of a committee above stairs open to all members, and in which all who attended should have voices'. He hoped the Committee would concur with him in the expediency of the measure which he had suggested, and he should therefore move, that the Chairman should report the following Resolution, "that in order to facilitate the progress of the said Committee, in the matters referred to them, a Select Committee be appointed for the purpose of taking the examination of such witnesses as shall be ordered by the House to attend the said Committee of the whole House, and to report the minutes of such examination, from time to time, to the House."

on the part of the East India Company, expressed his hope that the Committee would not acquiesce in the suggestion of the noble lord. By the mode which had hitherto been pursued truth had been elicited, and a consequent impression of a very powerful nature had been made on parliament, and on the country. When such had been the progress of the investigation, he trusted that no new mode would be adopted, by which the business should be carried on in a corner, or the interests of the Company put upon a shelf. He conceived that in a case of such unexampled magnitude and importance, it would not look well so to treat the East India Company. He professed on the part of the Company, that they had not many more witnesses to examine; and he entreated that they might be allowed to conclude the examination in the way in which it had been commenced. He had just come from a court of directors; and he assured the Committee that he spoke not his own sentiments alone, but those of that body. The noble lord had adverted to the investigation of the slave trade. The cases were not analogous. Let the Committee recollect the great length of the examinations respecting the slave trade. Even the examination into the Orders in Council (an examination carried on at the bar) had been of much greater length than the examination into which the Company would presume to enter. When he considered the various advantages derived from the existing mode of enquiry, the op- portunity it afforded of cross-examining the witnesses, &c. he deprecated any departure from it. An attempt was making to set aside an establishment which had existed for above 200 years; and he trusted they would be afforded every means of fairly meeting the hostility by which they were assailed. He could see no reason whatever for changing the mode of proceeding, and he was persuaded that if it would be any inducement to the Committee not to consent to the proposition made by the noble lord, the Company would even curtail the evidence which it had been their intention to bring forward at the bar.

was at a loss to know how the impression which the hon. gentleman talked of having been made on the country could have 'occurred, the country having as yet no report of the evidence taken before the Committee. In his consideration of the subject, the hon. gentleman also had left out the other parties to the question, who had as good a right as the Company to wish to make an impression on the country. The hon. gentleman talked of the business being carried on in a corner; now, the other parties would have the most reason to complain of the proposition of his noble friend, and to say "you heard the Company's witnesses for a fortnight at the bar of the House, and now you are about to hear our's in a corner." But the fact was, there was no corner at all. What parliament wanted was, to embody all the evidence that could be procured in as, accessible a form as possible; and this could be done better in a committee above stairs. As to the attendance, only those had attended the Committee of the whole House who were nearly interested in the question, and those could attend as well in the Committee above stairs. He hoped that the proposition made by his noble friend would be agreed to.

knew of no design to procrastinate. He was deeply impressed with the necessity of terminating the business early; but he thought the suggestion extraordinary. It went to this length, if admitted at all, that there was no superior advantage in an examination at the bar. If so, instead of making' a special report, better say, there shall be no more such examinations. He could not figure to himself a question of more importance to every man in the country than this, which it was stated might expose to hazard the safety of our whole Indian empire. The noble lord did not propose such a step as this on the Walcheren enquiry: he attended that, in his place, and afterwards made out the best case he could for himself. Surely he might have met the examination on the Orders of Council up stairs. He must assert, that he never remembered any enquiry attended by a larger number of members than the present. As to the other parties who were to be heard, it might be-a hardship to them; or it was possible they might like better to go up stairs; or, without bringing any evidence whatever, they might rely on the support of government. The Company were entitled to be heard out. They had shewn their disposition to expedite the enquiry, by waving the claim of being heard by counsel both as to opening and summing up. Was that a proof of procrastination? It was impossible to ask shorter, or more pertinent questions than had been put by their counsel at, the bar. This most important question had rapidly increased in its importance. Some went now so far as to recommend the abolition of the Company, and the throwing open of the India trade. As fur printed reports they were produced yearly, but Were too voluminous to be read by many. He knew that great weight had been produced by the enquiry at the bar. When gentlemen saw so many respectable persons examined, uniform in their testimony, it made a natural and strong impression on their minds. Some of these were not particularly pleased with the directors, yet their evidence was the same. No business was, or could be of more importance. Would the House cut it off in the midst of its progress? In a case of the excise or customs, how many would pore over a report about cockets and dockets? But put a commissioner at the bar, and see the different result. He felt that the Company were hardly dealt with. They had enemies springing up all around them. They ought to give their answer to their accusers in the face of day. Many things said, were true enough; such as that a government had more energy under a sovereign, than in a complex form; that monopoly was not so good as freedom of trade; and that the fewer restrictions on commerce the better for it. But the question now was a matter of opinion about a great meditated change, and the best way to settle it was to have the opinions of the best judges. Unless they were fairly listened to, the noble lord might carry any measure against the Company. The proposition was most unjust. If necessary to sit during the holidays, he would consent to it: but if he had attended in his place pretty-regularly, and had taken more interest in the question than some others, from his view of its importance, and from its having much occupied him in earlier years, he did not see why he was to be sent up stairs during the holidays because it suited the noble lord. He put it to the noble lord's justice, whether, when he considered the outcry raised, and the sanction given to it by high authority, he could mean to cutoff the enquiry thus? The House had itself already determined the mode of procedare. There was still less reason for the measure, because he was told that the Company's counsel had brought the examination to such a point, that it would not occupy more than five or six days. He implored the noble lord not to give the public reason to think that some effect had been produced by the evidence which had induced him to put an end to it.

was of opinion that the East India Company appeared in the character of defendants, that they had to maintain a possession, which it was proposed to take from them, and that therefore they had a right to the most favourable and patient hearing. He did not mean to offer the least inclination of opi. nion on the question itself, but the wishes of the Company ought to be attended to. Their evidence, he understood, would not last more than five or six days longer; and whatever might be said about pleasure and relaxation during the holidays, he must be permitted to remind the House that they had a duty, which it was their first business to attend to.

did not look upon the Company as defendants. They were at the end of their lease and they came to petition for the liberty of retaining, for twenty years more, a sovereignty over sixty millions of people, and the possession of all the trade of Asia. He saw no advantage resulting from continuing to examine, at the bar, that could not be attained up stairs. The case of the slave trade proved the propriety of a similar proceeding with that now proposed. The other House had adopted the mode of a Select Committee sitting in the morning, as the more preferable one.

objected to the motion: he said, that if the Company were not allowed to proceed in the mode which had been already adopted they would be very hardly dealt by; they thought they were entitled to have their cause heard before the whole House, and surely the noble lord could have no desire to prevent them from Substantiating their proofs in such a manner as in their opinion would lend most materially to prove to the public the existence of the rights for which they contended.

assured the Committee, that he did not wish to preclude the Company from any mode of proving what they thought necessary to the maintenance of their case; but he thought the Company had no right to set themselves up as arbiters of the proceedings of parliament, of which parliament was the sole judge. He was convinced that delay must be prejudicial to all parties; and he would therefore, act on his own judgment, because he saw great detriment to the public business, if this important question was not dispatched as soon as possible. If it was suffered to go on as it had begun, and was not sent to a committee above stairs, it must, in the course of things, be continually interrupted after the recess by a press of public business, that could not be resisted; and, therefore, he thought the Company ought to wish for a Select Committee more than any other person whatever.

opposed the motion, maintaining the unfairness of smothering the remainder of the petitioners' case, by sending it up stairs.

replied, that nothing was further from his wish than to do injustice to any of the parties.

denied very strenuously that he had asserted that the House was to be controuled in its proceedings by the dictates of the East India Company. The noble lord, in truth, was the author of all the inconvenience that had yet, and would hereafter result; for if the examinational the bar was objectionable, he ought to have opposed it in limine.

said, he had no notion the Company would have called witnesses to the extent to which they had done; but now, perceiving that the examination would have the effect of retarding public business, he felt it to be his duty to persist in his motion.

said, he had regularly attended the sittings of the Committee, with a mind perfectly open to conviction upon all points but one: he was certain from the commencement that the right of sovereignty ought not to be taken from the East India Company, after the benefits that had resulted from the exercise of their authority. He begged leave however to guard himself against any construction of hostility to the interests of the Company from his acceding to the proposition of the noble lord. He begged leave to state distinctly that having the honour to repre sent one of those great towns whose interests in a certain sense were opposite to those of the Company (not so opposite he trusted, however, as not to turn out reconcileable in the end) he had felt it his bounden duty to attend to the course of the examinations, rather than to rest satisfied with a subsequent perusal of the evidence printed, as those not so intimately interested might do, and this he had done with a view to the forming a sound opinion upon the whole of the question. He thought it fair to state that having collected the opinions of many persons standing in the same situation with himself, and others more closely interested, he could say that they were no parties to the present proposal—they had no wish either way, but were prepared to submit to the decision of parliament. His opinion was founded on the belief that if the House were to go on at the same pace as hitherto with the examinations, they might have them protracted from the pressure of other business, to a period when it would become necessary to adjourn the decision of the question to another session.

said, he had originally stated, that if the usual number of hours were given to this, that had been allowed to subjects of the like nature, the whole of the evidence on the part of the Company would be concluded before the holidays. However, that had not been the case. Except during one evening, the Committee, had never sat above three hours: notwithstanding, as it was situated at the present moment, the whole of the evidence might be gone through in four days more; there were two to come before the recess, on which there was no business of consequence to occupy the attention of the House. If, therefore, these two evenings before the holidays were dedicated chiefly to this examination, not more than two days after the recess would be required to complete the whole; and surely two days might be spared from the public business on a matter of such magnitude and importance.

said, that after the evidence was concluded, there would be a necessity of submitting certain Resolutions to the House, as a foundation for the Bill which must be brought in: these resolutions would be debated at great length, and the same would afterwards be the case with the Bill: he must therefore persist in his motion.

A division then took place; for the motion 95: against it 37.—The noble lord then said, that as the Committee had come to the decision they had done, that decision would be reported to the House, and the House would agree or disagree with their Report as they thought' proper. In the mean time, it would be the business of the Committee to proceed with the examination of witnesses, and to make as much progress therein as was in their power.

moved, that the Resolution which upon the 9th of March last was reported from the Select Committee appointed to try and determine the merits of the election for Tregony, might be read; and the same was read, as follows: "Resolved, That it appears to this Committee, that Thomas Croggon, currier, of Truro, did endeavour to procure the return of two persons to serve in parliament for the borough of Tregony, contrary to the provisions of an Act passed in the 49th of his present Majesty, ch. 118."He then moved,"That Thomas Croggon, currier, of Truro, did openly and corruptly endeavour to procure the return of two persons to serve in parliament for the borough of Tregony, by means contrary to the right and freedom of election, and contrary to the laws and constitution of this realm." If this Resolution was agreed to, his lordship said he should move, that the Attorney General be directed to, prosecute Croggon for the said offence:

The first Resolution was unanimously agreed to; but on putting the second,

suggested, that it would be the better way to have him brought to the bar, in the first instance, to offer what defence he might judge proper, and that the House might afterwards deal with him at they should think fit. He doubted much whether the evidence before the Committee would be sufficient to obtain a conviction in a court of law.

observed, that it was always customary for the House to give so far credit to the Report of its Committee as not to allow the person reported against to come to their bar, to make a defence, as if to a fresh charge. It was the custom, either to commit the person to Newgate, or to the custody of the Serjeant at Arms at once, if, they intended to take the matter into their own hands.

proposed, that Thomas Croggon should be committed to Newgate.

had no doubt but that the offence committed was a misdemeanour, and that the evidence would be fully sufficient to have him convicted of it in a court of law. His own letter offering to procure the return for a gum of money, was evidence of a misdemeanour as complete as the ease of Hines to the duke of Grafton, or the tin-man to Mr Addington. He thought that it would be better to leave it to the Attorney-General to prosecute.

After some further conversation, on the suggestion of Mr. Bankes, it was resolved, "That the said Thomas Croggon be for his said offence taken into the custody of the Serjeant at Arms."

in pursuance of his notice, moved, "That there be laid before this House, copy of the course of Instructions and Lectures in Divinity, dogmatical and moral, delivered at the royal college at Maynooth in the year 1812,"

was sure the professors of that college were not only willing, but anxious to lay such a copy before the House.

contended that a compliance with the motion would only cause the table of the House to be encumbered with an unwieldy volume and lists of theological lectures. He had no objection that the private curiosity of the right hon. gentleman should be gratified, although he thought that he might have had an opportunity to do this while be had filled the office of one of his Majesty's secretaries of state, but be supposed that then the right hon. gentleman was too much, engaged in digesting the Nightly Watch Bill. He objected to the motion, because it would make the House travel out of its Usual course.

thought that the right hon. baronet, who had often occasion to defend the tenets of the Roman Catholics, would have been happy to have had an opportunity of acceding to a motion by which their tenets might be promulgated and examined.

remarked, that the right hon. mover might have as well added, that copies should be required of all the sermons preached by Roman Catholic priests. If, however, only one member wished for the papers, it was sufficient reason why the motion should be agreed to.

observed, that as the college was maintained by the state, and was for the education of youth in a religion which was not that of the state, the House had surely a right to know the nature of the doctrines taught in that college. The hon. gentleman who had been pleased to observe that it would be as well to move for all sermons preaphed by Roman Catholic priests, forgot that there was not any analogy between the doctrines taught in an institution supported by government, and the detached sermons of individual preachers.

trusted that what was wanted would not be so voluminous as some persons seemed to imagine,

said, that if the House were told, that because the college of Maynooth was supported by government, therefore they had a right to know what the professors of the college taught and preached, it might as well be said that because government paid for the support of the church of England, it had a right to know all that its ministers taught and preached. He took the motion as it was given, and supposed that it was meant the whole lectures delivered in the college: really it was more ludicrous than irritating, to have a motion made for the production of a mass so useless and so unwieldy. He wished the right hon. mover would alter his motion, sp as to put the college to less trouble, and the House to less expence.

opposed the motion, in the shape in which it then was.

observed, that the motion was also unjust, because it required professors to furnish the House with matter which it might be their intention to give to the world in the shape of a book.

was inclined to alter the nature of his motion, and to specify particularly the lectures upon divinity, dogmatical and moral.

supported the motion in its original shape.

thought that the object in view would be best accomplished by the motion as originally worded; and that the nature of the motion was such that it would meet with the approbation of all the friends of the Roman Catholics. He objected to calling for particular lectures; the learned body would give the documents to the House in the most acceptable shape.

proposed, as an amendment, that the motion should be for the heads of the course of lectures.

could not agree to this amendment, because the House did not want the heads of the lectures, but their substance.

After some further debate, the original motion was carried,

said, that if the vote had come before the House at an earlier bour of the evening, he should have opposed it. This vote was directly in contravention of the agreement respecting the Irish civil list, of which the inviolability had been so strongly urged, but which had constantly been departed from. The sum of 30,000l. the saving from the civil list, had been handed over to the privy purse, while this expence was defrayed by parliament. The inviolability of this act should not be urged therefore against a reduction of the pension list.

said, that in the King's letter on which the Act in question was founded, the sum in question Was proposed in accordance to usage ever since the Act in question had been passed.

objected to the grant, which after some discussion between general Mathew, Mr. Fitzgerald, and Mr. Peel, was agreed to.

On the Resolution for the grant of 10,500l. for proclamations in Ireland being read,

rose to express his sentiments on this subject, in the course of the discussion of which on a former night he had been alluded to. When he came into office in the spring of 1806, he found the estimates prepared by his predecessor, and he did not think himself to blame under those circumstances in adopting them; but supposing himself to have been misled in the instance in question, he did not think it right that any one who had adopted a measure while in office should be prevented from profiting by ulterior information. If he had been ill-advised on the occasion in question, he should nevertheless now come forward to oppose this grant, which had a pernicious influence on the Irish press. From the Press, one of the papers encouraged by a share of this annual vote, the infamous fabrication against the Catholics, which had excited such indignation, had issued.

objected to the vote, on account of the influence exercised by the money thus granted over the Irish press. In one instance, when the editor of the Clonmel Herald had voted in favour of him (general Mathew) and his col league, Mr. Prittie, in the election of 1812,. the proclamations were withdrawn from that paper, and the goods of the proprietor sold to satisfy the demands of the government, though the most respectable security in the county was offered for its payment. To the Dublin Correspondent 400l. per annum was paid, and the Kilkenny paper having inserted some articles in favour of the people, the government desired the proprietor to send in his quarterly account, which effectually prevented the insertion of all such articles.

denied the fact concerning the Clonmel Herald. When he came into office he found that paper among others a year and a half in arrear for the advertisement duty, and had ordered the commissioner to secure the immediate payment. He never knew the editor was a voter for Tipperary. (Here general Mathew said across the House "during the general election.") If any man dared to deny what he had stated as the fact, even the walls of parliament should not protect him. As to what had been said by the right hon. baronet, the fact of the vote having been proposed during his administration, was he should have thought a bar to his objecting to it in the present case.

noticed what had fallen from the last speaker in strong terms. He would not repeat the words of the right hon. gentleman. The right hon. gentleman had spoken within, he (general Ma thew) would speak without the walls of parliament,

was satisfied the hon general did not mean seriously to impute a deliberate untruth to his right hon. friend. He hoped therefore he would have no objection to state what had fallen from him to have proceeded from misconception, and he trusted the business would go no further.

if he felt that in the warmth of debate he had been betrayed into any improper expression, would not be ashamed to retract; on the contrary, he should think such retractation most honourable. Having been charged with acts of gross corruption, he had repelled the accusation by such a statement as he had thought would have been satisfactory to the hon. general himself. Contrary to all parliamentary usage, a doubt had been thrown on this his vindication, and he had then said that if it was imputed to him that he denied what he had done, or done what he disavowed, not even the walls of parliament would restrain his feelings. He left it to the House to say whether or not he was justified, but till the expression which had called forth that which had fallen from him was retracted, he could not retract what he had advanced.

said, it had appeared to his right hon. friend that a doubt was thrown upon what he had offered by the hon. general. This, as the hon. general could have no wish to impute an untruth to the right hon. gentleman, he thought he could have no difficulty in disavowing it.

offered a few conciliatory observations.

said, what he had stated he had stated on the authority of a letter which he had in his pocket; the writer of the letter was ready to come forward to prove what he therein advanced. He had accused the government of exercising undue, improper, and corrupt influence. Whether the right hon. gentleman had a right to take it up, it was not for him to say. He had preferred the charge against the government, and he would stand by it.

said, after such words had been used, it was the duty of the House to interfere. The course to be pursued in such cases was distinctly marked out. It was for the House to require of the parties a promise to proceed no further. He therefore felt it his duty to call on the right hon. gentleman and the hon. general to pledge themselves that they would carry this business no further.

repeated, that he should be willing to retract any indiscreet ex- pression which might have escaped from him. The expression, however, which had given rise to this conversation, was not retracted, and till that was disavowed there was no alternative; till then not even the high displeasure of that assembly should induce him to retract what he had said.

said the rules of that House were to be held paramount to every personal feeling. What arose there must end there. He was therefore convinced that neither of the parties would, because neither ought to refuse to give that pledge which the House had a right to require. He then called upon Mr. Fitzgerald.

was ready to set any ex-ample that the House might be entitled to expect from him. He had never said any step would be originated on his part which was inconsistent with the forms of the House.

hoped the hon. general would feel it incumbent oh him to retract the expression he had used, as he could have no wish to impute an untruth to his right hon. friend.

expressed himself willing to conform to the wishes of the House, if the word 'dare,' as used by the right hon. gentleman, was stated not to have been used in an offensive sense.

said the word 'dare' had only been used hypothetically—if any one imputed a falsehood to the right hon. gentleman. The hon. general not meaning to do this, must feel the expression could not apply to him in an offensive sense.

repeated, he had only meant the charge generally against the government.

as the hon. general bad not meant to impute an untruth to him, had no hesitation in saying, not only that he hoped the whole business would be obliterated from recollection both in and out of the House, but that he should exceedingly lament if ever the subject was again revived.

said he had only thought the language of the right hon; gentleman rather extraordinary, coming as it did from one with whom he had been in habits of private friendship.

The conversation here dropped; and the remaining Resolutions of the Report were agreed to without discussion.