presented a Petition from the treasurer, secretaries, directors, and members of a certain voluntary society, known by the name of the Missionary Society, instituted in 1795, whose sole object is to spread among heathen and other unenlightened nations, the knowledge of the Christian religion, setting forth,

"That the inhabitants of the populous regions in India, which form an important portion of the British empire, being involved in the most deplorable state of moral darkness, and under the influence of the most abominable and degrading superstitions, have a pre-eminent claim on the compassionate feelings and benevolent services of British Christians; and that this sympathetic disposition has been powerfully felt throughout the kingdom, and plans have been formed, and adequate instruments and funds provided, for the purpose of extending the knowledge of the Christian religion in India; and that the charters which have been granted to the East India Company have provided, that every person desirous of proceeding to and residing in that country, should previously obtain a license for that purpose from the directors of that Company; and that, although this regulation may have been proper and necessary for commercial and political purposes, yet the petitioners humbly conceive that it was not intended to impede the progress of Christianity, or place under the controul of the directors a subject so intimately connected with the moral and intellectual condition of man and his final destiny; and that this power, so vested in the Company, has unhappily been the occasion of obstructing, in a great degree, the execution of those benevolent plans which had for their object the propagation of the Christian religion in India; and that the opinions which have been expressed, both as to the impracticability of attaining this object, and the danger of civil commotion in attempting it, are regarded by the petitioners as founded either in prejudice or misapprehension, and are demonstrated to be erroneous by the evidence of facts; and that the Missionary Society, through the kindness of the executive government, which they have on all occasions expe- rienced and most gratefully acknowledge, have for several years past had missionary stations in the colonies of the Cape of Good Hope, Demerara, Trinidad, Tobago, and also on the continent of India, and they are willing to appeal to the governors presiding over them as to the character and proceedings of their missionaries, and as to the conduct of those who attend on their instructions; and that the missionaries sent out by the petitioners, desirous only of protection, and not seeking to be invested with civil authority, will not have the power, any more than the inclination, to promote Christianity by means of coercion, it would, moreover, be inconsistent with their principles, as also with their success, which requires a peaceful and not a disturbed state of society, and that, in the propagation of Christianity in India, their missionaries are instructed not to excite the prejudices of the natives by declamations against their superstitions, but to rely for their success upon the divine blessing attending a candid statement of the evidences which sustain the Christian religion, of the sacred doctrines, promises, and precepts of which it principally consists, and on their exemplary and blameless lives, attended by deeds of kindness and good-will to the natives; and that the petitioners are not merely willing, but very desirous, that the government both at home and in India should be fully acquainted both with their principles and their measures, by which it will appear that the missionaries receive full instruction on the great Christian principles which form good and peaceable subjects, and useful members of civil society; and that the petitioners, being most firmly attached to the constitution of this country, and ardently desirous of its true prosperity, dignity, and perpetuity, and being convinced that the stability and glory of Christian nations depend on the practice of Christian duties, are conscious that, in endeavouring to diffuse the principles of Christianity to the utmost extent of the British dominions and influence, they are acting on the purest principles of patriotism, and rendering the most important services to their country; and that, in conformity with these views, the petitioners receive the highest satisfaction from the Resolution of the House, passed in the year 1793, viz. "That it is the peculiar and bounden duty of the British legislature to promote, by all just and prudent means, the interests and happi- ness of the inhabitants of the British dominions in India; and that, for these ends, such measures ought to be adopted as may gradually tend to their advancement in useful knowledge, and to their religious and moral improvement;" and therefore they humbly hope, and earnestly intreat the House, that, in the charter intended to be granted to the East India Company, such provisions may be made as may secure the admission of Christian ministers and missionaries into India, and their protection there, so long as they shall act agreeably to the laws and to the duties of good and peaceable subjects."

In moving that the Petition do lie on the table, Mr. Whitbread begged to be understood as giving no opinion upon the subject.

observed, that, before the House proceeded any further, he thought it right to inform them, that the Serjeant was not in possession of any apartments suited to any thing more than a temporary custody. The House would, therefore, see whether a person of infirm health (such as the prisoner was represented to be) would not be likely to meet better accommodation in his Majesty's gaol of Newgate.

then moved, "that Thomas Croggon be committed to his Majesty's gaol of Newgate."

objected to the mode of proceeding adopted by the noble lord, which he thought to be an unnecessary interference with the province of the committee appointed to try the merits of the Tregony election. It had been stated with great force and effect, that the House should not travel out of the report of the committees appointed on such occasions.

said, that they were not trying a question of guilt or innocence. The only point for them to consider was, that an offence against the privileges of the House had been committed by the prisoner, and not against the act, which would be punished by a legal proceeding. If the prisoner was in an infirm state of health, that circumstance should be proved at the bar by a medical person.

said, that Croggon had been deranged; that he was now attended by four keepers; and that his life was in danger. He therefore resisted his commitment to Newgate.

The question was then put, and carried.

esq. was called in and examined as follows:

—You are solicitor, I believe, to the Excise?—I am. I have been connected with the Excise 27 years.

Considering the extent of the trade and the present considerable rate of duties, has the smuggling of teas or of East India goods, upon the whole, taken place, to any considerable extent, within the last year, under the present system of conducting the East India and China trade?—I apprehend not to any very considerable extent; it has not come to our knowledge at least.

Do you consider it as great, in proportion to the quantities brought into legal consumption?—I should apprehend not; certainly the quantity of tea smuggled of late years, has by no means been so much as it formerly was.

Can you name any port which, in your judgment, would be as safe for the revenue as that of London, for the importation of East India and Chinese commodities?—I apprehend none.

Is not the amount of Excise duties payable on East India and Chinese articles to the public by the East India Company, collected, according to the present system, at a comparatively small expence, and with little trouble or risk to government in such collection?—I think it is, at much less expence certainly, than it would be in any other mode.

Is not, in fact, the expence and the risk perfectly trifling, compared with the magnitude of the object?—I think it is.

Can you say about the annual amount of the Excise duties paid by the East India Company to government?—I really do not recollect that; the duty on tea is stated to be about four millions a year, but all that will appear by the returns.

Do you attribute the great degree of safety which you have described, as to so large a sum, to the public and open mode of sale adopted by the East India Company?—I do; and their being of sufficient capital to put up the article at what they call an "upset price;" individual merchants must sometimes, I apprehend, be so pressed, that it may be advantageous to them even to sell their commodity at a loss, for whatever it will fetch; the East India Company's practice is never to sell the article that they put up, unless the bidding shall exceed that upset price, consequently the crown always gets the ad valorem duty upon the proper value of the article; if, for instance, a private merchant should find it convenient to sell his tea at 50 per cent loss, it is obvious that one half of the revenues would be lost, because the East India Company would never sell it but at a gain; I wish to suggest, that this answer applies only to the present mode in which the duty is laid at ad valorem; but if the duty should be imposed as a rative duty, then, from the circumstance of such alteration of the duty, my answer will not apply.

Looking to the publicity of their sales, the number of purchasers, foreign and British, together with the emulation of purchase, is it your opinion that the bona fide sale price is ascertained at those sales?—I apprehend there can be no doubt of it.

Do officers of the customs and excise attend at those sales, or in what manner does government ascertain their real and bona fide amount?—I can speak of the excise; the same act of parliament regulates both revenues; the officers attend the sales, and take an account of the priced; on which the East India Company, at a certain time, settles the account and pays the excise 90 per cent. upon the sale prices; this applies only to tea.

Give your opinion, supposing the ad valorem duty to remain, and the public mode of sale exchanged for private sale at the out-ports, whether such a change would not extremely endanger the safety of the revenue?—I am of opinion it would: the real value certainly could not be ascertained then with the same precision that it is now; there would not, I apprehend, be the same competition of bidders from all parts of the continent and elsewhere, who do attend the Company's sales, which great number of bidders, added to the upset price, insure, I apprehend, the goods not selling below the real value and in consequence producing to government the full amount of its duty; should that mode of sale be varied by allowing individuals to sell at the out-ports, so far as respects the ad valorem duty, I am satisfied the full amount would not be obtained, because the goods might, upon many occasions, be sold at an inferior value; and also would be sold to fewer competitors for the purchase; the present Company's sale we know to be a bonâ fide transaction; but if it were to be intrusted to individuals, there would be no such security; an individual putting up his private property to sale might put in a fictitious purchaser, just as people do at auctions; and he might buy in the goods at one tenth part of their value; and by such a juggle, nine tenths of the duties would be lost; I do not know that the ad valorem duty is upon piece-goods; it is a customs duty; but this would apply to every article subject to an ad valorem duty.

Supposing a free trade to India and the whole of the islands in the Eastern seas, and that the smuggling of tea, was the object of the adventurer, in what way, in your opinion, would he proceed to get it into England, Scotland, or Ireland?—Ashe gets in all other smuggled goods; certainly there is nothing particular in tea; he would of course, I apprehend, import it from thence to some place of deposit in a neighbouring country, either Guernsey, Jersey or more likely the neighbouring coast of France or Holland, whilst the present restriction remains on Guernsey and Jersey by the establishment of custom-houses, which took place a few years ago; he might also procure it through American ships, or other foreign ships coming upon the coast, very likely for purposes of general merchandize, bringing this as a bye adventure, which would be delivered out into boats, and smuggled directly on shore.

Supposing under the circumstances of a free trade, that smuggling should increase, would not a great proportion of it probably consist in the re-landing of such articles as are now prohibited by law in order to protect the British manufacturers, but are allowed to be re-exported, supposing a licence to export from every out-port?—Considering that there would be a greater number of ports from whence that exportation might take place than there is at present, it being at present but from one port, of course upon the principle that the import smuggling might be increased, the re-landing smuggling might be increased by increasing the number of ports, because there would be a greater number of objects to require the officers' attention.

Is it your opinion, that that description of fraud would be increased under such circumstances?—Undoubtedly, the same principle applies equally to both.

Supposing the same amount of East India and Chinese articles as is now imported by the Company in large ships, were to be imported by a great number of adventurers in ships as small as 350 tons burthen, what, in your opinion, would be the difference with regard to the safety of the revenue from such alteration of circumstances?—Any increase in the number of ships must of course be followed by a correspondent increase of danger of smuggling, because one ship or few ships are more easily superintended than the many; this is all independent of any provision that might be made hereafter for the increase of the number of officers.

Do you then think that under such circumstances, without a very great addition to the number of officers, even common safety to the revenue could be procured?—Certainly not, without a pretty considerable increase in, the number of officers, and the number of revenue cruisers too.

Do you apprehend that such an open trade from India, without manifests, would be one of extreme peril to the revenue?—Excessive peril; that I apprehend must be the fundamental principle upon which the trade could be permitted at all.

Is it customary to have a duplicate of manifests sent from any other part of the world?—Yes, from all places in India for British ships, a sworn manifest would I conceive then, become more necessary than it is at present; the Company must bring home all their goods to the port of London, because that is their domicil; and whatever smuggling may have been practised out of the Company's ships, I apprehend it has been practised by captains and officers of the ships; and not, in general, by the Company themselves: but that, perhaps, would be materially varied in the hands of individuals, because the individual merchants might themselves become the smugglers; and that with more convenience than a great company, which is not so fit an instrument for smuggling, their business being carried on through certain formalities, such as written orders, resolutions, &c. which must be delivered to their subordinate officers, so that a great number of persons must become acquainted with all their proceedings; whereas an individual can manage it by intrusting it to a very few only, perhaps only to the captain; another reason is, that a great company has not so cogent a motive to smuggle as an individual, because the affairs of a great company are conducted by a few; the profits, however, resulting from illicit trade, would not be confined to those few, but would be distributed among all the partners of that concern.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Are not you aware, that from the shoals on the Welsh coast, and the rocks and shoals upon the English, it is impossible for a ship of 350 tons burthen coming up the Bristol channel to approach either shore, till within a few miles of King Road, without imminent danger?—I do not know; I should think a ship of 350 tons burthen might navigate that channel, and smuggle as much as she chose; because it is not necessary for the ship itself to come into port or to come very near the coast, she puts out her goods into boats.

In the event of the trade to India being opened from the out-ports, the trade in tea being excluded, do you conceive that very great risk will not attach to vessels proceeding from India with tea on board, with an intention to land it in the manner you have described, taking the chance of meeting the vessel that is to convey the article of tea intended to be smuggled to a foreign depot, it being supposed that the having tea on board will subject the vessel and cargo to confiscation?—There will undoubtedly be considerable risk, as there is in all smuggling transactions, but I apprehend the risk will not be so great as to deter many persons from running it.

If a person were disposed to smuggle, would it not be more advantageous to him, and therefore is he not more likely to enter into that transaction with a view to his own safety and advantage, in a neutral vessel than in a British ship?—I should think not, because it is hardly to be supposed that a vessel would be entirely freighted from that great distance with contraband goods, part of her cargo only will consist of the contraband article.

Would not the circumstance of the other part of the cargo being liable to confiscation be a matter which would therefore deter any person from engaging in such an adventure?—If I may judge from great experience, it would not.

In the event of a month's public notice in various newspapers for a sale taking place at Liverpool, in the article of tea, do you suppose it possible that that tea could, by any understanding among buyers, be disposed of fifty per cent. below its value, or to any considerable amount below its value?—I certainly think it might be disposed of below its value; and especially below the value which the article fetches under the present regulations, because the Company's sales take place at specific seasons of the year; and all the buyers upon the continent are as well acquainted with these times and seasons as the Company themselves, and send over their orders accordingly; whereas, in the other case, I suppose it would be intended to leave the time and place of sale at the option of the proprietor of the merchandize, and if so, I see no reason to doubt that it might be so contrived as to sell at a very considerable price below the real value; but that the thing would not fetch so much money as it does under the present regulation I think there can be no doubt.

Have you considered all the various modes of collecting duties, even when taken ad valorem?—It is impossible to say that I have done that, because I came here without any sort of preparation; I came to offer my genuine sentiments, thinking it better, without any preparation.

Then you have not considered any mode of levying ad valorem duty, unless by ascertaining the value of the commodity by public sale?—I have never turned my attention to it, but principles have certainly occurred to my experience that will possibly enable me to answer that question: we are not without examples of that in the revenue, and I remember two remarkable instances; formerly the duty upon paper, instead of being a rative duty upon the pound as it is now, was an ad valorem duty; we never could agree upon what was the value of the thing, and by way of making the matter less difficult, it was said it should be according to the value at the next market town (the paper mills being generally out of towns), and when we came to that, we had the greatest possible contrariety of evidence, the officers and the witnesses produced by the defendant were frequently as wide as east from west. We had another remarkable instance in the case of callicoes about the year 1785, I think; Mr. Pitt was prevailed upon at last to repeal the duty entirely; it was a duty upon callicoes to be ad valorem, and the officers and the traders never could agree upon the value of the pieces. As we have failed in these two instances, I should despair of finding any criterion more efficacious, upon the present occasion, than those have been upon the past.

Do you not think there is considerable difference between a manufactured and an imported article?—Certainly not, in that respect, because it is a matter of opinion; in the cases that underwent my examination upon those ad valorem duties, I had no more doubt of the value of the thing, than I had of my own existence; and I am satisfied it was impossible the trader's account of the matter could be correct, but yet they did produce such a body of evidence upon all occasions, as bore us down in the crown's evidence, in nine cases out of ten.

Are you particularly acquainted with the river Humber?—No.

You are not therefore aware that there are very few landing places in the river Humber, even at high water?—I know nothing on the subject; but I never yet saw a river where a smuggler would not find opportunities of landing, in places where other persons would not land; perhaps the river Thames is as impracticable as any which can be found.

You are unacquainted with the shore, whether it is muddy or not?—I allude to muddy shores; the Thames furnishes a very strong instance of that sort.

Is not smuggling easier and more practicable from small vessels of 350 tons, than from large ships of from 800 to 900 tons, or China ships from 1,400: to 1,600 tons?—Certainly the smuggling from smaller ships is more easy than from larger ones, because the smaller ships can come into water where the larger ones can never approach.

Could any probable estimate be formed of the increased expences attending the collecting the revenue on the proposed changes in the Indian trade, in proportion to the expence of collecting the revenue in the same trade in its present mode of collection?—An estimate might undoubtedly be made; but the accuracy of that estimate perhaps might be very questionable.

There could be no doubt that it would be very considerably increased?—I apprehend it would he very considerably increased.

Supposing no alteration to be made in the present system, do you conceive that a considerable smuggling of tea would take place in a time of peace?—Not very materially; I see no reason why there should.

Do you consider that the circumstance of admitting private ships to the port of London, and to some of the out-ports, tea being prohibited, as before described, under the severest penalties of the law, that that opening of the trade would produce a smuggling of tea in a very considerable degree?—I do; because I do not apprehend, speaking from past experience, that any penalties, however severe, are fully competent to the suppression of smuggling, where they have an opportunity of getting possession of the article at all; and the individuals, as I before stated, have a much greater motive for smuggling, and a greater facility of accomplishing it than great companies have; because the want of instrumentality is in the one case very great, and with respect to individuals, is always at hand; a merchant need do nothing perhaps but confide himself to the captain alone of his vessel, and therefore he may be under a temptation, which the Company is not.

In either case, the duties remaining the same, or being reduced as they are now by law to be reduced, do you think that the circumstance of admitting private British ships, under the restrictions before stated, to some of the out-ports, would add very considerably to the means afforded to the smugglers under the present system?—I do; because individual merchants, as well as their captains and officers, would be tempted to engage is the smuggling, to which the Company have no temptation, of their own property.

How are individual merchants, natives, or foreigners, prevented under the present system?—No tea can be brought any where upon the coast on board any but an East India ship.

Are you aware that any ship but a British ship, of any burthen, may bring tea to any European or American port?—Other than a British port, undoubtedly; but the difference is this; I conceive, that ships will not in general come upon the neighbouring coast laded entirely with tea; but they must be ships coming into the neighbourhood of England, having on board other merchandize, and this only a part of the cargo; therefore I hare not equal apprehensions of smuggling from foreigners that I have from British ships, returning home with lawful merchandize, smuggling such parts of their cargo as they can contrive to get out.

Why is it to be supposed British ships will come with these assorted, cargoes, and not foreign ships?—A foreign ship, not bound to this country, will not be so likely to have tea on board as a ship that is returning home, unless it is entirely laden with that contraband cargo, which will pot in general, I apprehend, be the case.

Do you recollect, that with respect to a foreign ship, a cargo of tea will not be illegal until the moment it is attempted to be smuggled?—I am aware of that; but it is an entire cargo, brought for an illicit purpose; that I am not so apprehensive of entire cargoes being brought by foreign vessels for the purpose of smuggling, as I am that ships belonging to England and returning home, will bring an assorted cargo and smuggle out a part of it; indeed, we find that to be the case at present, with respect to the smuggling of tea, for it is effected in this way; the ship is upon her return home with an import cargo; but a superabundant quantity of merchandize is taken on board for the illicit purpose of smuggling; the Company's officers, I believe, generally do this, not the Company themselves.

If a safe and convenient port, situate at the entrance of the British channel, which might have such legal quays and wharfs and storehouses, as are approved of by the boards of excise and customs, could be found, would not you consider the revenue more secure, than by proceeding with the ship up channel, liable to all such deten- tions as occur both in peace and war, by anchoring in the Downs, Margate-roads, and other situations, previous to her arrival at her port of delivery?—Cæteris paribus, I think it would; but I should not think a port, even at the extremity of the coast so safe (Falmouth we will suppose) for the revenue, should the trade be laid open, as I should conceive the port of London to be, should the trade remain with the Company, or any other great company who have no temptation, nor the means of smuggling out the cargo, always laying out of consideration the smuggling which may be effected by the ships officers of their own private adventures.

Do you consider the difference between a respectable merchant's house and the Company, as making the difference?—In the revenue I know very little of the respectability of merchants; we treat all merchants alike; I, certainly, according to my experience of merchants, should not think it safe to expose them to this temptation.

What ground have you for thinking that a merchant of the first respectability cannot so well resist the temptation as the persons who have the direction of the Company?—For that very principle upon which the tenor of my evidence is grounded; the affairs of a great company must always be conducted by a few persons; but the proprietors at large would participate in any profits resulting from the illicit trade, whereas individuals would put the whole of that profit into their own individual pockets; I consider that as the leading principle which pervades the whole of my testimony; and, in addition to that, as I before stated, a great company has not the means; they are less effectual instruments for smuggling than individuals are, because the illicit trade must be conducted through an inconvenient system of organization, founded on written resolutions, written orders, &c. which must go through a great length of formality, and into the hands of a great number of persons, by which the scheme might become known, and expose the projectors to considerable hazard of discovery in the execution. These are the fundamental principles of the whole of my evidence.

What would you state as the difference between that part of the cargo which does not belong to the Company, and that which would belong to a merchant in a private ship?—No other difference than this, that the person who does it is certainly liable to visitation from his employers; that is one reason that may operate perhaps, in some degree, as a check; whether it does or not, is impossible for me to say; I am afraid not so effectually as it ought; but with respect to anything else, I see no material difference between the goods of that private individual, and the goods of an individual merchant.

Does not that constitute a great part of the smuggling now existing?—I believe it does; but my apprehension is, that in any other mode, not the private adventure but the cargo itself would become the subject of smuggling, Which in the Company's ships I apprehend is not the case, for the reasons that I have before assigned: I beg to be understood, that I by no means apprehend that there ever has been a time when there has been no smuggling out of East India ships, or that the time ever can occur when there will be no smuggling out of East India ships; I consider it impossible to prevent it entirely; but if we preserve the cargo entire, the private adventures are not of so much consequence.

If a person were disposed to smuggle an entire cargo, could not such person, desirous of engaging in this adventure, employ a neutral rather than a British ship, with more safety and advantage to himself?—That depends upon circumstances; because he might possibly not have the same confidence in a neutral that he had in a British ship; the neutral might deceive him, and even run away with his cargo; but certainly if a man had confidence in a neutral, it would be more convenient to him to employ that neutral than a British ship, because some of the forfeitures that would attach upon a British ship would not attach upon a neutral, unless detected in the very act of smuggling, or of having smuggled; in which case she would be liable to seizure, notwithstanding her being a neutral.

Are you of opinion that any mode of collecting the revenue arising from the India and China trade can be devised, so simple in its execution, at so little expence, so little exposed to frauds, and so free from the objection of increasing cost, from the necessity of increasing water-guard and officers, as the mode in which that important business is now performed at the India-house in London?—I am very decidedly of opinion, that there cannot.

Are you aware that from the out-ports now, and in vessels of very small size, the exportation of goods liable to a very heavy duty, for home consumption, or upon which a very large drawback has been received, is now allowed?—I am aware of it; and in my opinion it exposes the revenue to so much risk, that nothing but the great accommodation afforded to the merchandize of the country could justify the measure.

Bart. was called in, and examined, in substance, as follows:

I have been 28 years in the Company's service.—I went to India in 1770, in the civil department; as a writer on the Bombay establishment.—Between 1770 and 1775, I made an excursion from Bombay, for the purpose of obtaining information, up the gulph of Persia; We touched at Muscat, Gombroon and Bushire, and from thence proceeded to Bussora, where the Company have an establishment; after that I visited Surat and Cambay.—I was, after that, appointed resident to the nabob of Cambay, a Mahomedan power in the gulph of Cambay, and resided there, I think, nearly ten years.—There were no other Europeans attached to the residency; I had occasional visitors, and during my residency, there was an English army came there to the assistance of Ragobah.—During my residence at Cambay I had been appointed Persian interpreter to the settlement of Surat, and in that capacity I occasionally resided there; I was likewise appointed to the council of Surat by the court of directors, but I did not take my seat in that capacity.—On being recalled from the residency of Cambay, I was appointed Persian interpreter to the government, and private secretary to the governor of Bombay.—Subsequently to that period, I was sent on a mission to the Siddee. government of Jizzera Jessore, likewise called Dunda Rajpore.—I think it was in 1785 that the government-general, then under Mr. Hastings, applied to the government at Bombay for its acquiescence in my being sent minister plenipotentiary to the court of Poonah.—Subsequent to the treaty of Salbey with the Mahratta states, Madajee Seindiah had been, by one of the stipulations of that treaty, made the mediator of all intercourse between the English government and the Mahratta states: to conciliate his approbation of my mission, I was ordered to proceed from the western side of India, to wait upon Madajee Seindiah: I accordingly proceeded from Bom- bay to Surat; from Surat I proceeded across the peninsula, and joined Madajee Scindiah, then in camp at Matura, between Delhi and Agra; and after having had audiences of him and the king, who was likewise in camp there at that time, Mr. James Anderson, who was resident with Scindiah, procured his approbation to my appointment, and I proceeded to Calcutta.—On my arrival at Calcutta, sir John M'Pherson was in the chair, Mr. Hastings having proceeded to Europe; and having received his instructions and directions, I proceeded from Calcutta to Bombay by sea, and from thence to Poonah.—I went there in 1786, and remained till 1797.

—During so long a residence in so many different parts of India, had you not many opportunities of ob-serving and studying the characters of the natives of India?—I certainly had.

Are you of opinion that they are a people peculiarly unchangeable in their manners, habits and opinions?—I think both Hindoos and Mahomedans are peculiarly attached to their own manners, habits and opinions.

What would be the consequence if Englishmen, unacquainted with the manners and languages of the natives, were permitted in any great numbers to go into, or reside in, the interior of the country of India?—I think from the great difference of the manners and customs of the natives of this country and the natives of that, there would be a probability of great confusion resulting from an indiscriminate intercourse with the people of India.—I do not see any possibility of the happiness and peace of the inhabitants of India being improved by such an indiscriminate intercourse; on the contrary, I think it is very likely that great disturbances might ensue, and consequently unhappiness result.—The parts of the country that I allude to are those under the native governments, and I presume there would be no adequate means of punishing, but by resorting to the power of the native governments, or to personal resistance.—I think that the manners of the people of India not only partake of the difference of character incidental to all individuals of all countries, but that they are greatly diversified by the classification of the natives of the country into different sects.—In the classifications of the natives, particularly Hindoos, to whom I allude, there are casts, whose hereditary practice it is to devote themselves to the lowest occupations of servitude; there is the commercial class; there are military tribes; there is a priestly tribe: all these are characterized by very striking and peculiar traits of manners; as for instance, those whose habits of life are servile, are extremely submissive; the commercial is industrious, thrifty, and likewise, I may say, extremely obsequious in his intercourse with mankind; the military tribes are generally high-minded and irritable the brahmin has feelings of his sacerdotal character, and is particularly sensible with respect to any violation of that character.—I think it is very likely, from the difference of the manners of our countrymen from those of the natives of India, that they may unwarily and un-designedly be involved in violations of those observances which the people of India of those different classes may expect.—The touching of a brahmin by an European would involve the necessity of ablution; the passing near the place where they are cooking their victuals, and the shade of an European falling upon their culinary operations and their cookery, would certainly be looked upon as a pollution of the food.

What would be the consequence of that pollution?—Most likely throwing it away, and considerable anger on the part of the person who might be so inconvenienced.—I have known gentlemen who have been in the habit of residing in our own settlements, where the submissiveness of the natives in general prepares them to expect the same amongst the foreign powers, have found a very different reception on going amongst the natives under their own government; I have likewise known two instances, one of which was fatal; the first, of a gentleman at Poonah, who had recently arrived in the country, and having got the command of a regular corps in the Peishwa's service, was, on some rash conduct, on his part, towards the minister, who then commanded the army, on leaving the Durbar tent, shot on his way home; the other instance was of a woman, a Mrs. Hall, married I believe to an Englishman of that name; but she was certainly a French-woman, who had the nominal command of a corps in the Peishwa's service, and on occasion of some haughty treatment of some native, was imprisoned in a Hill-Fort, where she would probably have been put to death, had I not interfered in her behalf,

State what the differences are in the manners of the natives of Hindostan at the presidencies and in the interior of India?—The difference certainly is very great.—There is a difference in their general deportment; there is a more general submissiveness to Europeans; and I suppose they feel, that from the protection of our courts, they may go to a certain degree of submission, without particular bad consequences ultimately resulting; but that not being the case under the native governments, irritability once provoked may be attended with more dangerous consequences, than from the anger of a person who receives ill treatment under our own governments.—I certainly think that Europeans, before they become acquainted with the native character, are more in the habit of treating them with disrespect than afterwards.—I think that in a country where the mass of the population may probably be sixty millions; where the British force, including the native army, may amount to probably 150,000; where the European part of that force may not probably exceed 25,000; our power must mainly depend upon opinion; and in as far as the conciliation of that opinion must be requisite to our safety, I should think that putting it to a risk by adding to the dangers, an indiscriminate intercourse should certainly be avoided.—I think it not at all improbable, that in the event of an indiscriminate influx of Englishmen, which may probably be under some impressions not friendly to the constituted English authorities now in India, both in their conduct and in their language, they may evince symptoms that would be rather derogatory to the dignity of the government there established. I think it but too likely that the natives of that country, and the native powers of that country, seeing our own countrymen manifest a conduct of disrespect to the constituted authorities there existing, might be disposed to prosecute any evil dispositions that might be pre-existing among them; at the same time, I think it not Unlikely that indisposition of the natives to our countrymen and to our government, may be engendered by the observance of such language and such conduct in the indiscriminate influx of Europeans.—I look upon the alliances that have been recently formed with the native powers, to have arisen out of the principle of coercion and ascendancy; and in as far as there may be in all governments a desire of regaining independence, I think it not improbable, that if power and opportunity served, they might be incited to take advantage of the indisposition previously engendered.

From your observation of the natives of Hindostan, do you think they have generally any want or any desire for the articles or manufactures of this country?—This question, I humbly conceive, divides itself into two parts; the first, with respect to the disposition of the native governments to encourage the introduction; and the second, with respect to the individual natives, as to their disposition to receive them. With respect to the first part of the question, if it is the pleasure of the Committee, I will read to them an extract of a letter which I had the honour to address to the governor general (lord Cornwallis) in 1788, particularly on the subject of the disposition of the government of the Peishwah to encourage an additional commercial intercourse: in the former part of the letter there is a general statement of the then existing state of our commerce with the Mahratta government, with tables annexed:—what I shall have the honour of submitting to the Committee, is the conclusion from the whole statement:—"In concluding this address, I shall endeavour, by a slight sketch of the genius of this government, as far as it relates to the subject, to meet the ultimate object of your lordship in council, of enabling you to form a judgment, how far the state of our commercial intercourse with it, as above described, is capable of improvement, to the advantage of both."—[It may be necessary to inform the Committee I did this in consequence of his lordship's particular desire to increase our commerce with the Mahratta country, and to add to the imports of our commodities. I was then minister plenipotentiary to the government of Poonah.]—"The Peishwah's administration is in every act, more or less, influenced by that parsimony which so invariably and so strongly marks the bramin character, while, narrow in its genius, and grasping in its policy, it frequently mistakes the mode of gratifying its ruling passion; averse from, and probably ignorant of, the systematic and equitable principles on which alone commerce: can be rendered flourishing, by encouraging the industry in the security and happiness of the subject, its chief attention seems directed to conquest and depredation, giving employment at once to the desultory military spirit of the Mahrattas, and supplying the state and chief individual bramins with wealth and power."

"Commerce, but more especially foreign, less understood, would be more slow and precarious in its operation: the arrangements necessary for its effectual protection, are incompatible with that spirit of expedience and venality by which every thing is influenced at Poona; they would in some measure trench upon the arrogant principles of aristocracy, by a general diffusion of wealth; and interfere with the system of farms, which is universally adopted from the smallest branches of the customs, to the disposal of provinces; whence the subject, instead of experiencing the uniform and vigorous protection of a wise government, is cruelly sacrificed to the rapacity and oppression of the highest bidder.

"The state of the numerous ports of the Mahratta empire on the coast of Malabar and Guzerat, but more especially the former, evinces a spirit hostile to commerce; and I have not a doubt, were its fleet equal to the end, but that it would be instantly converted to the same predatory purpose at sea, as its armies are by land; as it now is against all those whom it can master. This, perhaps, is fortunate for us, as presenting a bar to the admission and rival-ship of our European neighbours; though certainly the customs of a single year in a well frequented port, not to mention the numberless advantages of population, &c. would greatly exceed the profits of plunder, after deducting the expence, which must be great, in keeping up a number of piratical vessels.

"The rich and commercial kingdom of Guzerat (every town of which is or was inhabited by rich Banians, a tribe as attached to commerce as any other tribe of Hindoos to its hereditary pursuits) flourished infinitely more by its traffic, even during the violent convulsions of the Mogul government previous to the establishment of the Mahratta power, than it ever has since that event; though time and tranquillity have given ample leisure for doing away the effect of conquest and the transfer of dominion.

"The Moguls, magnificent and ostentatious, required every article of luxury; towns and villages grew out of this spirit: the bramins and Mahrattas, less refined and more parsimonious, are averse from and ignorant of those costly modes of ex- pence; hence those towns and cities, deprived of the cause of their existence, are mouldering fast into ruin, and their wealthier inhabitants have sunk under, or fled from, the rapacity of their new masters.

"In this cause might probably be traced the seeds of the present drooping commercial state of all those provinces of Hindostan that have been subjected to the Mahratta power; under which the provincial monied men, not to mention the substantial landholders, have been subjected to oppressions and exactions: personal property has become insecure; industry has failed; an aristocratical wealth, arising from the soil and the labours of the peasantry, has succeeded, which is confined to the conquerors, and Poonah has become an insatiable sink, into which vast treasures have been poured, scarce ever again to circulate.

"This was not the case under the Moguls; the riches carried annually to Delhi, did not stagnate there; the internal commerce of the empire, and the spirit of the people, gave full employment to the foreign influx of wealth: the productions of each province, and the performances of every art, were in high demand; and the pay of the vast armies of the empire kept pace in magnificence with every other article of expence: hence arose numberless channels, through which the wealth of the empire was again circulated to its extreme branches.

"The mere accumulation of riches by the inhabitants of an empire, is vicious and sordid; but much more so, when it becomes the sole object of the rulers; a wise legislature studies to make them the stimulatives of genius, of science, of agriculture, and of commerce; to convert them to the consumption of the produce of industry, and so to, arrange them, as that the coffers of the state may be replenished from the redundance of those of the subject; but, my lord, this system is not known at Poonah.

"The fixed and grand source of this state's revenue, is agriculture; the best, perhaps, oh which a nation can depend: that it has such a revenue, is the necessary consequence of possessing art immense tract of productive domain: that it is not more productive, but on the contrary, that it labours under every disadvantage, proceeds from a faulty constitution: the second is, its tribute, fixed by various denominations on the greatest part of Hin- dostan: the third, the predatory collections of its armies: the fourth, its domestic sequestrations; and the last, its collections on the commerce of the empire; which I am inclined to think are comparatively trifling and insignificant.

"Poonah is still a large village, to which people of all denominations and all professions are now beginning to resort from the other ruined parts of Hindostan, particularly from the decayed Mogul cities. Its reputation for security, since the two abortive expeditions from Bombay, has greatly tended to promote its increase and population; as the wealthier Bramins have, in consequence, begun to employ some part of their hidden riches in building; which single circumstance necessarily gives employment to a great number, and a great variety of artificers, as the wants attendant on large buildings are endless.

"The circumstances which are above enumerated, of the great wealth of the Bramins, and the great increase of Poona in buildings and inhabitants, must, I should imagine, cause a greater demand for the articles, which can be furnished only from Bombay, than heretofore; but from what I can observe of the present genius of this government, I confess that I am inclined much to doubt the practicability of improving or extending our commerce, by any extraordinary means adopted for that purpose; and as I believe that the common course of causes arising from the state of the society has already operated its utmost effects, and will continue so to do; so do I think, that an endeavour to improve or extend them, would rather tend to awaken jealousy and suspicion of our intentions, than to answer the liberal end proposed by your lordship in council."

So far as to the genius of the Mahratta government: the next part of the question was, as to the inclination of the natives to receive European commodities. I think there certainly does not appear either to exist a want or an inclination, except amongst rich individuals, at the presidencies of our own government: the want of inclination seems to be the permanent cause in the manners of the people; the deficiency of the means seems to be a growing evil, from the decrease of the influx of specie from Europe, which, as far as my information goes, is now confined to the slender supplies from the gulphs of Persia and Arabia; and were there any prospect of forcing our manufactures, I humbly presume that, in as far as our native fellow subjects in India are in that relation entitled to the fostering care of government, it could not be wise or magnanimous to encroach upon the slender means which they possess for their, own scanty maintenance, and the payment of our revenue.

I conceive that the general population of Hindostan, by that meaning the cultivators of the land, have not the means, it they had the desire, of purchasing any English manufactures.—I do not know any of our manufactures for which they have a particular taste, except for our firearms; that indeed is not general; the princes who wish to embody regular corps, are desirous of getting our fire-arms and our ammunition: there may be, perhaps, spectacles and a little hard-ware; I believe that nearly comprises any articles which I have seen a disposition in them to purchase.—There is a tribe of people at Bombay, that are peculiar to the western side of India, the Parsees; those people give somewhat into the manners of the Europeans; they have no repugnance to wine, like the rest of the natives of India; and they, as I understand, give into the pleasures of the table, and frequently entertain European gentlemen.—It may he necessary for the Committee to keep in mind, that it is now 15 years since I left India; there may, perhaps, have been a considerable alteration even in the manners of the Parsees, since I left India.

At that time, was there a demand, among the richer natives, for the finer and more elegant manufactures of Britain; elegant guns, pistols, watches, and articles of that description?—They certainly were always very acceptable to them, as presents; but I never understood that they were particularly extensive in their purchases of those kinds of articles: I have frequently presented them myself, and they have been always very gratefully received.

Do you think that, in the event of a free trade, there is any probability of a materially increased sale of the manufactures of this country among the natives of India?—It may be necessary to observe to the Committee, that I have never myself been practically engaged in commerce; my general view of it has been in my diplomatic situations; and as far as it has been necessary for me to contemplate it in that point of view, I never saw that there was any great room for an increase of demand for the manufactures of this country, in any part of Hindostan with which I have been acquainted.

Do you think that, under the present system, the opulent natives of India have full means of procuring any European articles that they may wish for?—The three presidencies of India I look upon as emporiums for the whole country of Hindostan; and I believe that the natives of the whole of the continent of Hindostan may have easy communication with those presidencies, through the agents that are residing at them.

Did it appear to you, while you were in India, that the supply of European commodities carried to the markets, was fully equal to the demand on the part of the natives?—I never heard of a deficiency; nor was I, during my residence and during my journies in different parts of Hindostan, ever applied to for increasing the quantities that had been imported.

Are not the people of India a trading and manufacturing people, that are fully adequate to supply their own mercantile wants?—I conceive them to possess manufactures fully equal to the supply of all their mercantile wants.—They are certainly extremely ingenious, docile and industrious, and quick in learning such European arts as they find useful to them.

In your opinion, was the Company's government, when you were in India, adequate to the purposes of enforcing good order, and thereby promoting the happiness of the natives under our government in India?—I presume that the present prosperous state of the British empire in India, affords the best answer to that question: further I beg leave humbly to submit, that I think the permanent goodness and efficiency of any vicarial government, must primarily depend upon the wisdom and virtue of the power whence it emanates; and secondarily on the undeviating strictness of its responsibility to that power; and as from the nature of the Company's organization, I should suppose its servants and delegates further removed from the partialities of the ruling power, and more exposed to the strictest scrutiny of its supremacy; while on the other band the same organization removes all apprehension of that concentration of partialities or attachment which might tend to internal domestic danger, I humbly presume no delegation of government could afford a fairer prospect of effi- ciency over our Indian empire, than that of the East India Company, whose servants, if duly cherished, will not cease to emulate the great examples that have been set them in a Clive or a Hastings. I think that the acknowledged and conspicuous merits of the Company's civil and military servants, in constructing and upholding the mighty structure of our Indian empire, entitle them to the confidence of their King and country.—In as far as the exercise of the commercial power of the Company has hitherto been blended with that of their political, I humbly conceive that any interruption in the structure of that power, might tend to weaken the general edifice in the opinion of the natives; used, as they have been, to view it as a great whole, inasmuch as it might have a tendency to undermine the commercial intercourse between the two countries, it might certainly injure the interests pf this nation.

(Examined by the Committee)

When you were in India, had you many native servants in your establishment, private and public, that were commonly dressed in liveries or dresses of European cloth, made up according to the fashion of the country?—During ray diplomatic situation at Poonah, two companies of sepoys were attached to it; they were dressed in European cloths. I was afterwards in the administration of the government of Bombay; all the attendants forming the retinue of the governor, were dressed in English woollens; I do not recollect that in my personal numerous establishment, my servants were dressed in European woollens.—I believe the common attendants upon the offices, in the character of messengers, who are called peons or sepoys, were generally dressed in English woollens.

Do you know whether those persons were not much pleased with such dresses?—In as far as it was a badge of authority it certainly was pleasing to them; might I judge of its being pleasing to them as a matter of habit or dress, I should think there was no particular predilection for it.

Would those persons, in your opinion, have preferred comelies, the common manufacture of the country?—I presume that each individual of those men that I have just been describing, would, were he sent upon a message in which he was obliged to be out during the night, take his comely in addition to his woollen dress.

Be pleased to state whether English broad-cloth is not commonly used in the housings of elephants, camels and horses, of the richer natives of the country?—Undoubtedly it is; and in addition, it is used for their shoes; among the richer brahmins it is likewise used for a kind of surtout, with a cape that comes over their heads.

Are you of opinion that the commercial pursuits of the Company tend to raise the character of the British nation in India?—I do not conceive that the commercial dealings of the Company have any particular tendency to increase the respect of the native princes in India. In as far as it connects them more generally with the commercial classes in India, I presume it may have a tendency to increase its influence over those classifications of society. I am rather inclined to think, that in the event of any diminution of the powers and privileges now exercised by the East India Company, coupled with an influx of a new class of Europeans from this country, the general result upon the minds of the Indian princes might be detrimental to the interests of the Company. I think in my former answer, the general result is that a diminution of the influence of the Company, by the abolition of its trade, might be detrimental to its governmental character; it remains for the Company, in its financial character, to determine, whether that diminution of character would be compensated by saving or avoiding the supposed incurred commercial loss.

Have you observed any considerable use made by the natives of India, of the metals of this country, such as copper, iron, steel, &c.?—The natives of India certainly make great use of copper, iron, and steel; they have abundance of iron in their own country; steel they likewise have, but in what proportion, or what quantity, I cannot pretend to say; copper is in universal use amongst them. There are very great iron works in the north of India, in the neighbourhood of Gwallior; it is now fifteen years since I was in that part of the world, and I do not exactly recollect the very spot where the mines are, but they were in the course of my journey to the north of India, and were visited, and have been in some measure described by a gentleman of my suite.—The natives of India use copper and brass vessels for various domestic purposes.—I believe that a certain proportion of Vessels of one or the other of those metals is almost a necessary part of their domestic utensils, but I cannot speak to the proportion between the use of them and earthen vessels: I beg incidentally to mention that, in their great entertainments, the Hindoos do not use either earthen or metal vessels; their plates off of which they eat, are composed of leaves sewn together. My residence while in India was chiefly in foreign situations, and during that residence, I certainly had no opportunities of observing any particular additional importation, or use of European articles; in as far as the European population at Bombay increased, there certainly must have been an additional call for European articles; I likewise believe that the Parsees of Bombay have increased in their demand for European articles.

Had not the Company formerly a considerable trade with Sind in the articles of woollens and metals?—They certainly had, and a commercial residency existed in the country of Sind.—I do not know accurately how they lost the trade, but I understood the withdrawal of the factory to have been from the unsettled state of the country.

Does not India produce remarkably fine grapes, and in great abundance?—Grapes I believe have been latterly introduced upon the island of Bombay; there were grapes grown at Poonah, but not in great quantities; greater quantities, I understand to have been grown at Aurungabad; I am not acquainted with the culture or growth of grapes in any other places.—Doubtless grapes might be produced to any extent.—I presume that the soil and climate of India might be used to the cultivation of cotton to any extent. Happily for this country, and for that part of it which is charged with the administration of India, I do not think that hither to there have been any general marks of antipathy to the English nation, or its government in India, at least none have come within my knowledge; with respect to the influence of coercive treaties, and the alliances of ascendancy, they have, generally speaking, been formed since I left India, consequently I cannot be so well qualified to speak to the influence of those treaties as gentlemen who have had an opportunity of local observation.

Are you of opinion, that, considering the delicate texture and tenure of the British empire in India, which is acknowledged not to depend upon its numerical, but on its moral force, that is opinion, repeated indiscretions of British subjects or Europeans might shake the tranquillity, and not remotely the security, of the British empire in India?—I certainly think, that the indiscretions of our countrymen in India, coupled with the report of various proceedings in this country, of meetings, tending to diminish their commerce, to encroach upon their religion, and generally evincing a disposition subversive of their present state of society, may have a tendency to shake and undermine the amicable sentiments of the natives of that country.

Is or is not the population of India at present generally submissive, and apparently contented under the British government?—Previously to my leaving India, as far as my situations enabled me to judge, there was a degree of confidence in the native powers towards the Company's government, that was highly creditable to that government, and to our country in general.

Do you imagine that the Mahomedans, out of whose hands the power has been taken by the British nation, which power they formerly used for the purpose of pillaging and oppressing the Hindoos, are equally contented, though apparently submissive with the Hindoo part of the population?—I think that the mass of the Mahometan population being so widely diffused and scattered, can hardly be supposed to form one general opinion or sensation; but I think that the chieftains and principal members of the Mahometan part of the society, must certainly feel their present humiliating situation extremely irksome.

As long as the Hindoo population is contented with the British government, do you imagine that any discontents, or practice from those discontented Mahometans, could shake the British empire?—India is a country of vicissitude and revolution; I think it not at all improbable that some great genius, some extraordinary spirit, might arise, that could combine the present floating spirit of discontent in the Mahometans into one mass; in which case I think, notwithstanding the general amicable disposition of the Hindoos, that spirit might be dangerous and difficult to subdue.—Admitting the hostile spirit to be produced by any indiscretions or violations of the manners on the part of our countrymen, I presume that only power and opportunity would be wanting to effect the suggestions of any indisposition which might have been created.

April 27.

esq. was called in. The following is the substance of his examination:

I have served the East India Company in all the different departments of the government. I resided in India for about 23 years, at the presidency of Madras.—I served in the military department, as an officer of infantry, of artillery, and of cavalry; in the civil department, as a revenue, judicial, commercial, political and diplomatic servant.—I was appointed by the government of Madras, during the period of the late military commotions there, to execute the functions of chief secretary to the government, and continued in that situation, till the termination of those dissensions.—At that time, I was senior member, and officiating president of the board of revenue; to which station I had attained through the several gradations of junior, second, and senior member, in a course of ten years service at that board. About the year 1790, I quitted the military for the civil service of the Company.—I filled the office of Persian translator to the government for the period from 1794 till about the end of 1810; I also filled the office, at one time, of Gentoo translator.—I am, in some degree, conversant with the Arabic, Persian, and Hindûstannee, the Sanscrit, and Telinga or Gentoo languages.

From the acquaintance which you have acquired with the characters, manners, institutions, and prejudices of the natives of India, do you apprehend that the unlimited admission of British subjects to an intercourse with the native people, would be favourable either to the security of the natives, or to the stability of the British government, under which they live?—If an unrestrained resort of European adventurers to India were permitted, and an unlimited licence of intercourse with the inhabitants of India granted, I apprehend the measure, besides being pregnant with delusive and seductive schemes of advantage to the adventurers themselves, would also be productive of consequences detrimental to the interests of the British empire in India, to those of the East India Company, and to the tranquillity and happiness of the Indian population.

In what manner do you conceive that the abuses, of which you have spoken, would arise, under the circumstances sup- posed?—They would arise from the extreme dissimilarity in the national character of the people of the respective countries, their different customs, manners, religions, sentiments, laws, and languages.

Have you observed in Europeans, either from their ignorance of the native usages and prejudices, or from an opinion of their own personal and national superiority, a disposition to insult or domineer over the natives?—A disposition of that nature has been generally observed: in the course of my experience, I have officially known many references to the government, in consequence of the dissensions occasioned by the imprudent, injudicious interference of Europeans with the native population.

Supposing that the restrictions at present enforced on the admission of Europeans into the interior of India, without being abolished, were materially relaxed, is it your judgment that such a change of system would involve a proportionate hazard of the evil consequences described in your former answer?—In whatsoever degree they were relaxed, it would involve the hazards to which I have just now alluded.

You are doubtless aware that British subjects for offences committed against the natives are amenable only to the supreme court of judicature, and triable only by a jury composed of British subjects, do you conceive that it would be practicable or expedient to invest the Zillah courts, with a criminal cognizance over British subjects in general?—British subjects are liable only to the supreme court of judicature at the presidency for criminal cases; but they are liable to the jurisdiction of the Zillah courts in civil cases, when the property litigated is less than 500 rupees; but I conceive it would be both impracticable and inexpedient to subject them to the trial by a native jury in the Zillah or provincial courts.

Would it in your opinion be practicable to institute a trial by jury in the Zillah or provincial courts, this condition being supposed, that such jury should consist exclusively of British subjects?—It would be impracticable in the Zillah courts, there being few or no British subjects resident in the situations where those courts are established.

Could British subjects in general be made criminally amenable to the courts in question as now constituted, without offence to the national feelings and prejudices of Englishmen?—In my opinion they could not.

Would the frequent exercise of coercion over British subjects on the part of native, officials, or corps of sepoys, tend to lower the estimation in which the natives hold the British character?—It would.

Supposing that an open trade were established between this country and India, but that British traders were interdicted from touching at any point of the coasts of India, except at the presidencies or at garrison towns, or in situations where the British government has established some sort of port police, do you conceive that such interdiction would prove effectual to prevent vessels from touching on other parts of the coast?—There are various creeks and places along each coast of the peninsula, besides the ports and places at which government have custom and police establishments, at which vessels navigated by European traders might successively touch for the purposes of illicit trade, and elude the appointed custom and police establishments; I mean on the Malabar and Coromandel coasts.—British mariners might successfully run from those trading vessels, and penetrate into the interior of the country, producing various mischiefs, or that those trading vessels might smuggle goods, by means of touching at those creeks and mouths of rivers to which I have alluded.

From your experience are you able to state, whether the natives of India furnish a considerable demand for the commodities of Europe?—The demand for the commodities of Europe is very small amongst the natives of India.—I am not aware that it has encreased; I apprehend it has rather diminished of late years.—I am not aware that it has encreased amongst any class of the native population; and I am of opinion, that it is unlikely ever to encrease beyond the degree in which we have found it by experience.—I imagine that the experience of the East India Company for a period of about two centuries, and the experience of other nations trading to Asia, has afforded ample proof of the improbability of increasing the demand beyond its present standard.

You have stated that the native demand for European commodities has recently rather declined than otherwise, can you state the causes of such declension?—The Indian population, from their dispositions, habits, and manners, are disinclined to the use of European commodities; they are also so expensive, that the natives in general have not the means of purchasing them; the markets in India have for some time past been overstocked with those commodities; the efforts of government have, on various occasions, within my own experience, been ineffectual to procure vend for those commodities; I have known applications, on the part of government, to the native courts and princes of the country, offering clothing for their military establishments on very reasonable terms, at prime cost, I believe; and I have known those proposals to be unsuccessful; there are periodical sales of those commodities, on very low terms; those sales are ineffectual to produce a disposal of many of those articles; the tastes and dispositions of the people of India are, at the present moment, the same as we know them to be described by the historians who accompanied the expedition of Alexander the Great, upwards of two thousand years ago, they are the same at the present moment, as described by the native annalists of India, for a period long anterior even to that date, and it appears to me unlikely that they can by any expedient be changed; the market being overstocked, the demand of the natives has necessarily decreased.

Do you mean that the native demand for imports from this country has declined in consequence of the Indian markets being already overstocked with European commodities?—I mean that the demand for European articles in India, has declined; I am not aware of any demand by natives for articles from this country; I have heard of occasional applications, on the part of the native merchants, to the captains of Indiamen, for some particular articles, but there is no general direct demand on the part of the natives of India, for articles from this country.

Is the demand which the natives of India furnish for European commodities, found to encrease in proportion to their means of purchasing those commodities?—It does not.

You have stated that many of the natives have not, in fact, the means of purchasing European commodities, is not that remark applicable to the great majority of them?—It is; the more opulent of them have the means, and if they had the means without end, they would apply those means to other purposes, than the purchase of European commodities: in the purchase of horses, of bullocks for their ploughs, and for the native cars; in the purchase of articles of eastern jewellery; in encreasing the number of their ladies; in the celebration of their marriage ceremonies, and of the anniversary ceremonies of the obsequies of their ancestors, and such purposes; seldom in the purchase of articles of European luxury.

In the settlement of Madras, are the superior natives found to imbibe a taste for European fashions?—Only the dubashes, or principal native servants of European gentlemen.

Do the dubashes adopt European fashions from a wish to please their employers or masters?—Entirely from that impulse.

Can you state whether the average price of agricultural and manufacturing labour in Coromandel, is not incomparably less than the average price of labour in this country?—It is greatly less.

Can you state the average price there?—It varies in agriculture, from the extremes of 6s. to 12s. a month; amongst the different classes of artizans, in various proportions from 12s. to 20s. per month on an average, as I believe.

You have stated the price of labour to be greatly less in India than in this country, do you mean to imply, that the comforts enjoyed by the labouring classes are likewise in the same proportion?—By no means; their comforts are, perhaps, superior to the comforts of the labouring classes in this country; they are proportionate to their wishes and their wants.

From the cheapness of labour in India, would you infer that the labouring classes are in a state of wretchedness?—Certainly not.

In your judgment, is the simplicity of the modes of life prevalent amongst the natives of India occasioned by circumstances in the nature of the climate?—It is occasioned by physical and peculiar circumstances in the climate, and the temperament of the people.

Do you apprehend that the countries of Europe can ever, under any circumstances, be on a great scale manufacturing countries, for the bulk of the native Indian population?—I imagine not.

To what causes would you ascribe it, that the commodities of India can advantageously enter the markets of Europe, and this against rival commodities brought from a much less distance?—To the extreme cheapness of labour in the manufacture of Indian commodities.

On the supposition that an open trade were established between this country and India, do you conceive that such trade would labour under any other difficulties in the interior of the country, than those resulting from the limited native demand for European commodities?—I apprehend that it might be occasionally subjected to the perils of passing through the countries of polygars, zemindars, and independent chiefs, who, besides plundering those articles, would also levy unauthorised rahdarry duties on the transit of those commodities through those tracts of country; even the articles of the trade of the East India Company are sometimes not exempted from such depredations, and from the unauthorised exaction of those duties.

esq. was called in. The following is the substance of his examination:

I was in the civil service of the East-India Company, from 1779 to the close of 1802, under the presidency of Madras. I was commissary to the army from 1786 until 1793; and a member of the board of revenue from 1793 till the period of my departure from India.

Had you, in your official character, much occasion to correspond with native collectors and other officers?—Not with native officers directly; but through the collectors, and I had very constant communications with all classes of natives personally.

From this degree of personal communication described by you, could you ascertain that their manners and opinions were of a fixed and unchangeable nature?—Judging from all I had read, in respect of the religion, manners, and usages of the Hindoos, and, comparing what I had read with what I saw when in India, I should think their manners and usages as unchangeable as it is possible to suppose the manners and usages of any people can be; I think they considered their prejudices and habits almost interwoven with their existence.

Did their religious prejudices seem to be of a deep and rooted nature?—I have stated, that they considered their religious prejudices as interwoven with their existence.—I believe their civil and religious habits are inseparable.

Have the natives had reason to complain of the conduct of the Company's servants, either as to intentional or unintentional violation of those rules of respect for their civil or religious prejudices?—I have no knowledge of a general want of attention to their religious and civil prejudices; I believe it may be generally said, the greatest attention has been paid to them by the Company's servants, civil and military; there can, of course, be no rule without exceptions.

Are they not capable of involuntary offence from persons unacquainted with their usages and customs?—Many instances, I believe, have occurred of that.—In many instances I have known this; but I cannot particularize the instances; I might go as far back as 1670, when a resident at a particular factory got a present of a bull-dog from a captain of a ship, and went out hunting with it, and the bulldog unluckily fastened upon a cow that belonged to a pagoda.

Have you observed new comers to be more liable to offend the natives, than those who had previously made themselves acquainted with the language and customs of the natives?—Certainly, they are much more liable to it; they may do it frequently without being sensible that they are committing an offence; they may go near to a man when he is dressing his victuals, which is an offence that would render it necessary to throw away his dinner; they may do things without being at all aware they were committing offences.—If he passed within that circle which they draw round the place where they are cooking their food, they would throw it away, if they were correct Hindoos.—I suppose there may be not less than fifty different sects of Hindoos, that have all their peculiar usages, which I am not acquainted with particularly; for I believe it would require a life to study them; where there are such a vast number of sects, it is impossible to describe all the particular modes by which a Hindoo might be annoyed by an European, who was ignorant of those customs.

Are such means by which they might be even unintentionally annoyed, numerous and various?—I should conceive them to be so.

Have you observed among new comers, a disposition to tyrannize over the natives, from any conscious superiority of the European character?—I believe it has very frequently occurred, that persons on their first arrival, are not so considerate of the natives as they should be.

Supposing, that in consequence of an open trade from every port in the united kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's charter, a material influx of Europeans were to take place into India, what are your ideas as to the effect it might have, either upon the general happiness of the natives, or the welfare and stability of our Indian empire?—It is very difficult to say what would be the effect of it; it would very much depend upon the regulations made in this country, to prevent the evil that might arise from it; and from the execution of such regulations in India.

Supposing the influx to be material, and the access thus general, do you apprehend that such regulations, as you have hitherto observed or contemplated, could be effectual for such restraint?—The regulations that existed when I was in India were, I believe, when a ship imported at any port on the coast where there was a master attendant and a custom house, for the master attendant to send to the ship for a list of passengers, and a list of the crew, describing their countries and pursuits, before obtaining which, no boat or any thing else was suffered to land from the ship; if any of the persons on board that ship wished to proceed into the interior of the country, it was necessary to apply for a passport; if on his arrival at the station to which the passport was granted, he wished to proceed further, a new passport must be taken out; all Europeans travelling without passport were liable to be stopped by the officers of government dispersed over the country, and by the inhabitants of the villages who were rewarded for bringing in straggling Europeans of any description.

Are there not many ports on either side of the peninsula, that are not under the immediate authority of the Company?—On the Coromandel coast, from Cape Comorin to Calcutta, every part is under the immediate influence of the Madras government, I believe, with the exception of a small spot, where there is an independent polygar, of the name of Tondiman, the English influence prevails all round his country.—The whole run of the Malabar coast up to Goa, is, I believe, also under the English government, and subject of course to the regulations of the English government.—To Goa, they are, I believe, subject to the Company; and beyond that, I believe there is a small tract which is independent of the Company.

Do you apprehend a free trade capable of being carried on profitably and effectually on either coast of India, unless the merchant or adventurer should have leave to follow his own merchandize, and superintend the sale of it?—I am not aware where a merchant would have occasion to follow goods, carried from this country, into the interior of India; merchants who traded to India when I was there, found it most advantageous, I suppose, to carry their cargoes where the best market was to be found, namely, the presidencies of Madras, Bombay, or Bengal; and there they would find a sale either by retail or by cargo; but I do not believe that cargoes to any extent could be disposed of, so as to obtain a return cargo, but at a very great loss.

Supposing the adventurers should think it most expedient for themselves to accompany their merchandize into the interior, do you think it would be politically safe to allow them so to do?—If by the question I am to understand an unrestrained resort into all parts of India, I should consider it as likely to produce very bad effects on the peace and happiness and comfort of the natives, and on the English interests in India; if restraints were imposed, it might not have so prejudicial an effect.

Supposing so universal a free trade to India as that which has been stated, allowing to every person, from every port of the United Kingdom, to go with his merchandize to India, whether confined to the three presidencies, and such ports as have garrisons or custom-houses, or whether allowed to every port within the limits of the Company's charter, is it not your opinion, that the number of adventurers thus introduced to India must, in the nature of things, be very considerable?—I have already stated, that I do not believe any great number could, for the purposes of trade, go into the interior of the country; and while the laws, which preclude Europeans from holding or renting lands, without the permission of the governments of India, exist, I cannot perceive a probability of any very great number of Europeans taking up their residence in the interior; if a great number were likely to take up their residence there, it would certainly require the utmost vigilance of the government, and the strictest execution, of its regulations, to prevent evil consequences arising from it.—I should think it very probable, that tradesmen and artificers travelling through the country, would endeavour to seek employ with some of those native powers with whom we have connection, or who are not immediately connected with us, if very great encouragement was held out to them; but under a vigilant execution of the regulations, I have already observed, I do not apprehend that many persons of that description could obtain a residence in the country.

EXPENCES and EARNINGS of the Family of a MADRAS LABOURER, consisting of himself, his Wife, and 5 Children, the eldest 8 year of age, the youngest an Infant.

Do you concur in opinion, that the usual earnings of the great mass of the natives in such parts of India with which you are best acquainted, are from six to twelve shillings per month, or thereabouts?—I have a statement of expences of a labouring man and his family at Madras, which I had occasion to call for, for my own information: it was obtained for a purpose, hat it was not likely to be undervalued; this is a statement of expences of the family of a labourer, consisting of himself, his wife and five children, the eldest eight years old, and the youngest an infant; they amounted in the aggregate to 11l. 6s. per annum, in which was included, for clothing for the entire family, 17s. and a fraction, for the whole year.

[The witness delivered in the Paper, which was read as follows:]

April 28 1813.

Be pleased to proceed in your answer to the question proposed yesterday?—The earnings of this family, allowing for casualties and non-employment, amounted to 33 pagodas per annum; the prices of provision at Madras are of course higher than

TABLE of the NECESSARIES of LIFE, generally in use among the HINDOOS;

A. 1 Pallem=1 oz. 25dr.

B. 40 Pallem 1 Viss = 3 lbs. 2 oz.

C. 8 Viss 1 Maund = 25 lbs.

D. 20 Maunds 1 Candy = 500lbs.

E. 1 Garce = 9,256 lbs.

F. 400 Mercals = 1 Garce.

G. 8 Measures = 1 Mercal.

H. 1 Pagoda = 8 Shillings.

I. 45Fanams = 1 Pagoda.

J. 80 Cash = 1 Fanam.

N. B. The Cash is a copper coin 37½ to a penny, coined and sent from England to India.

In the interior, the price of labour and of living must of course he much lower than at Madras; I had an opportunity of knowing the price of labour in the interior, in consequence of my situation at the board of revenue, and know that it is much lower. I have also a statement of the ex-pences and earnings of a middling family, composed of six men, a boy of five years of age, and twelve women, in all nineteen persons; the person to whom I allude was

in the interior of the country, and greatly higher than in Bengal; and I beg leave to hand in the prices of the provisions included in the statement already referred to, at the period when it was given to me, in 1802.

[The witness delivered in a Paper, which was read, as follows:]

in the situation of a dubash, who keeps a backerry, a carriage used in that country, with two bullocks; the whole expences of this family amounted per annum to 200l. and a fraction sterling; of which the expence for clothing the whole family, for the year, amounted to about 32l. sterling.

[The witness delivered in the Paper, which was read, as follows:]

EXPENCES of a MADRAS middling HINDOO FAMILY, of Six Men, a Boy of 5 years of age, and 12 Women;—in all 10 Persons.

The dubash is considered as a superior sort of person?—A person of the middling rank, and in a higher sphere, from his keeping a hackerry, and being employed as an interpreter. The dubashes are employed as agents, as interpreters, as merchants under Europeans, and in a variety of shapes.

Are they frequently employed as stewards, in taking care of the pecuniary concerns of the Europeans?—Yes, always; and are themselves very often merchants. Generally speaking, they are persons of medium property; many of them, I believe, live more upon salaries and emoluments derived from their mas- ters, than having any property of their own; though there are also many of them possessed of considerable property.

If aggression towards the natives should increase in proportion to the number of new adventurers, and the difficulties of appealing to the supreme court remain as great as they are at present, might it not, in your opinion, drive the natives to despair or ultimate revenge, or disaffection towards the British government?—Of course, in proportion as occurrences of this nature took place, of oppressions from Europeans to the natives, so it would naturally indispose the natives to the British government; but unless it can be supposed that you are speaking of an extreme case, it is difficult to believe that it would have any immediate effect in producing rebellion; in proportion, however, as the religious habits and usages and customs of the natives are infringed by Europeans, so of course would they be ready to join any power that might give them a hope of being relieved from oppression. I do not consider, speaking generally, that the native British subjects of India can have any motives for union, so as to at all affect the permanency of the British government in India, so long as the perfect toleration of their religion, their usages, their prejudices, the government of their own families, and security for their persons and property, are allowed to them. I believe the stability of the British government in India to depend, principally, upon the justice and impartiality with which the laws are administered, and on complete protection, as I have already explained, being afforded to the natives.—Their ideas of the British character must be entirely founded upon the conduct of the British government, generally speaking, to the inhabitants at large; individual injuries do not, I conceive, make so deep an impression upon them.

If Europeans were made amenable to the native courts, would not that, in your opinion, lessen the ideas of the natives with respect to European superiority, and that deference for the European character which the natives now appear to feel towards them?—The deference to the European character among the natives of India must be founded, not only on their physical strength and greater superiority of understanding, generally speaking, but upon the justice which they experience from them: and, if all Europeans who seek to reside in the interior of India with the licence of the Company's government and who go there for their own advantage and of their own freewill, were to be made amenable in all cases, except life and death, to the country courts, I mean the courts of appeal and of circuit, where European judges preside, which courts are authorized by the legislature of this country, I am of opinion that it would be considered by the natives that the English acted with justice and impartiality. I think that it is one of the greatest evils that they can suffer, to be under the necessity of seeking justice, as I have already stated, at so great a distance. In the explanation I gave yesterday upon the subject of the courts, I believe I omitted to state, that all persons employed by the Company or by Europeans in India were, by a construction of law, not supposed amenable to the country courts; and when I was in Bengal in the year 1802, numerous persons who had committed murder, being sepoys in the employ of the Company and others, were confined, because the government under a reference made upon that subject, did not feel that they had the power to order their execution; and that therefore the evils which I have explained would be greatly extended unless some subsequent act, since 1802, has remedied the evil. A reference had been made to England upon this subject, which had not been answered at the time I left India. Another inconvenience, arising out of the undefined powers of the supreme courts, and those of the country courts, existed when I was in Bengal; the courts of sudder and foujdarry adawlut at the presidency, the former being the chief court of civil, and the latter of criminal jurisdiction, were not allowed or supposed to have any concurrent jurisdiction in Calcutta; I mean, that if the sentence of the court was to be executed by a person, having come to Calcutta, in regard to whom an appeal was made, and a decree had issued, it was alleged there was no authority vested in the sudder courts to take up such person; and I was given to understand, that any attempt at such an arrest, if resisted and death ensued, would be considered as murder, and therefore, the only legal mode of proceeding in such a case, was to institute some other suit in the supreme court, thereby adding to the heavy expenses which had accumulated in the progress of the trial in a zillâh court, in the court of appeal or circuit, and in the sudder court. Having stated these circumstances on my return from India, lord Cornwallis mentioned them to the chairman of the court of directors, and measures were I believe adopted, or were about to be adopted, for remedying the evils; I mention them now, lest that should not have been effectually done.

Would not the admission of rival traders into India, against the known consent of the Company, materially shake their weight and consequence in the eyes and in the opinion of the natives?—I should think an unrestrained admission of Europeans, under any plea, into the interior of India, very destructive to the English interests in India, and therefore destructive to the Company who have the government of India.

Supposing such admission to be against the known consent of the Company, would it not lower their weight and consequence in the opinion of the natives?—It would make the natives feel that persons had a right to go into the interior, without either the sanction or consent of the government, and naturally give rise to an idea that the government had no controul over them; and therefore would, no doubt, very much lessen the respect due to the authorities of the governments in India.

Would a belief or opinion on the part of the natives of colonization by British settlers, be to them an acceptable or an alarming idea?—I should, in my own opinion, consider it pregnant with the most baneful consequences; it would utterly destroy the confidence of the people of India in the faith and justice of the British government, who have, in the regulations that have been promulgated throughout India, solemnly declared, that in all the changes made by those regulations, they have only in view to secure to the natives of India entire freedom of religion, habits and usages, and entire controul in their own families, according to the laws of the Shaster and Koran; which regulations have been so far affirmed, that they have been legalized by acts of the legislature of this country; via. 21st of the King, chap. 70; 37th chap. 142; and an Act in 1800. Supposing a persuasion to take place on the part of the natives, that British colonization were about to take place, what consequences do you apprehend from such a belief?—The consequence of indisposing them to the British government, and of their taking the first opportunity of relieving themselves from what they would consider their oppressors.

Do you apprehend that there is room to hope for any materially increased consumption of European articles by the natives?—I do not apprehend, from what appears to be the usages and habits of the natives, and from the articles they in general use, that any great increase of consumption amongst the natives of British manufactured articles can be expected; it is reasonable to suppose that as population increases consumption must increase, in a certain degree, of such articles as they may have been in the habit of using; but it is very difficult for any man to say whether there may not be some articles that may not hereafter be required by the natives, though, in my own opinion, I think there never can be any great extent of demand. The wants of the people of India are very few; the table of necessaries which I have given in, shews what articles are used for their general consumption; and unless some of the articles of Europe should enter into the general consumption of India, I do not think that we can expect any great extension of the consumption, of European articles among them; but there has been a great increase of consumption of European articles for the Europeans in India and the descendants of Europeans in India, and that will increase in proportion to the increase of those descriptions of population.

Can you name any new article which, in the course of your long experience, has been introduced into native consumption?—I am not aware of any new article; I believe they have used a few empty bottles for the purpose of keeping ghee and oil and such things, in addition to a few woollen articles; they used very few carriages while I was at Madras, there were not above three or four natives who had carriages; they use sometimes a few glasses; the metals of course were used, iron and copper; but I never was engaged in trade there, and therefore can only speak generally to those points.

Have the natives throughout India, as far as your knowledge extends, uniformly had the means of full and ample supply of such European articles as they might require under the present system of the Company's trade?—As far as I know, they have had an ample supply of all the articles imported by the Company and by individual traders: the only proof that I can offer that these supplies have been ample, is, that on the 30th of April 1793, it appears that there were in the Company's warehouses in India imported goods from Europe to the amount, I believe, of about 159,000l. unsold, and that on the 30th of April 1809, there were upwards of one million sterling imported European goods in the Company's ware-houses unsold; I believe the Company had in the intermediate period between 1793 and 1809, very much increased their exports from this country; this shows, therefore, that consumption did not follow the increased export.

When it has happened that natives have possessed or acquired considerable property, have they directed its expenditure materially towards the purchase of European articles, or in native, or other indulgencies of a different nature?—In the part of India where I resided, the natives generally employed their superfluous wealth in the expences of the marriages of their children, in the ceremonies performed on their father's death; and besides these, the richer classes of them employ large sums in repairing pagodas; digging tanks, where no water is otherwise to be had, for the travellers and the cattle; wells for the comfort of travellers; choultries, or refectories for their convenience, where no shelter could be otherwise had; and for charitable purposes, which every native of any fortune or distinction feels it his duty, as it is prescribed by his religion, to bestow.—I have frequently been at marriages and ceremonials, and on such occasions have had an opportunity of observing some glasses and small lustres, as matter of ornament; but the European articles used on such occasions for the convenience of the Europeans, who were invited to attend, are generally borrowed from the Europeans, their masters, or others.

Can you say whether the natives increase either in the practice or the capability of manufacturing what are called European articles?—I do not recollect any article in particular of European manufacture that they make, except carriages, which are produced by the native artificers, employed under the superintendence of Europeans, who make very good carriages; the natives themselves make plate, and have done so time immemorial, and very curious workmen they are, as will be seen by the Tritchinopoly chains exhibited in this country.

Do you think that such articles as are generally consumed by Europeans in India, will not by-and-bye be imitated and made by the natives, instructed by European artists?—A great portion of the articles that are carried from England to India for the consumption of Europeans, are articles of consumption for eating and drinking; broad-cloth cannot be made in India, as it now stands, unless the wool is carried out there for the purpose of making it, the wool of that country being, unless very far to the northward, too much of a hairy quality to make good broad-cloth.

Does any other article occur to you which they would not be able to make?—Iron they can make in any quantity that is desired, for they have the best materials for so doing; steel they make very good; copper is to be found there, but not in great quantities, at least where the mines have been tried they have not been found very productive; there may be many articles which, if I had possession of an invoice of those articles that are used by Europeans in India, I might be able to point out: hats they could not manufacture unless instructed by Europeans; if instructed, by Europeans, there is plenty of hare-skins and rabbit-skins to be found in the country, from which they might make hats; for most of the articles which are for the consumption of Europeans, in the way of carriages, the materials are to be found in India. But it is not in my power to state all the articles which the natives are or are not competent to manufacture: the articles that are in general consumption in India for Europeans or other persons, are so universally known by those that are concerned in the trade, that it will be easy for persons in possession of that information, to judge what may or may not be manufactured by natives under European superintendence.—I think their capacity is equal to the making of any thing that materials can be found for.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Are you of opinion that separating the commercial transactions of British India from those hands in whom the civil government may be lodged, would be consistent with the interests of the British empire in India, and of course in Europe?—The magnitude and importance of that question would require a consideration which I have not been able to give it, so as to answer it with satisfaction to myself; but if my opinion is asked, whether an entire separation of the Company's mercantile and political character would be a means of adding to our security in India, or adding to the advantages that are to be derived by this country from India, I should say, that I do not think the separation of the mercantile and political character of the Company is compatible with the successful government, or I might say, the maintenance of the English government in India: when I say the commercial character of the Company, I am not aware of the evils that arise from their commercial character, under the regulations and laws that now exist in India; but I am of opinion that a regulated trade that shall have that species of freedom, that a man shall be able to sail his ship at his own times and convenience, would be, in addition to the trade of the Company, a great advantage to India. I should suppose that the regulations which were established for that purpose, under the government of the marquis Wellesley, proved that the trade was extended, and that individual advantage kept pace with that of the Company. I think it will always be desirable that every ship that carries bullion, of whatever nation she may be, should have an opportunity of purchasing the produce of the country, because India possessing no mines, or at least producing very little either of gold or silver, must depend upon foreign commerce to feed the circulation; and it the specie of that country is to be exported to Europe, without such imports to feed it, the consequences must be fatal to the circulating medium of India. When I was at Madras, that subject was very often under the consideration of the government and its officers, and I remember it was my individual opinion, that a remission of duties to a certain extent on all exports should be allowed to the extent of bullion bonâ fide imported on such ships; and that arose from a pressure which the public service and individuals experienced from a very great want of specie, without the possibility of extending, to any considerable degree, a paper currency.

Can you form any opinion of the probable proportion Mussulmen bear to the Hindoos in point of number, in that part of the country with which you have been acquainted?—That question it is impossible to answer without a census being taken; where I have had an opportunity of seeing it taken, in the Mysore country, where I should have expected more Mussulmen than in the Carnatic, I think the proportion was thirty-eight Hindoos to one Mussulman; but that varies precisely in proportion to the power and number of the Mussulmen governments that existed in different parts of India.

Do you consider those Mussulmen who have been put down from offices of power and emolument, equally contented with the British sovereignty as the Hindoos?—Certainly not, it is impossible to suppose that men who enjoyed unlimited power, office and emolument, can be equally satisfied with the Hindoos, who more generally derive greater advantages from office and emolument under the English government, though both enjoy as complete protection as it is possible for men to enjoy where laws have not been long established, but which time and experience will, no doubt, improve into greater perfection.

Could discontents to any extent amongst the Mussulmen produce danger to the British sovereignty, as long as the Hindoos are satisfied with the British government?—I have already explained that I do not think there is any bond of union that could be established among them, to induce such an event as is referred to in the question, unless under the circumstances which I have before stated.

If the Mussulmen could induce the Hindoos to concur with them, would the British power be safe?—If the Mussulmen could induce the Hindoo population to rise in rebellion against the English government, it is impossible to suppose that it would not be a very difficult thing for the few Europeans that now hold the power in India long to exist; the extension of the British power in India, though it could not have been gained without the aid of a great European force, was yet attained principally by the aid of our native subjects. During the war of Hyder in the year 1780, I knew of instances of attachment in the native troops which it is impossible for me not to mention; Hyder entered the country with an army of 100,000 men; the army which we had in the field under sir Eyre Coote, amounted to not more than 8,000 muskets, of which not 1,000 were Europeans; all the garrisons in the country of our own were occupied by a few European officers with native troops; Hyder offered very high terms to induce them to secede from their duty; they were frequently from 4 to 14 months in arrears of pay; they were in some instances reduced to the necessity of disposing of their children to obtain the means of their own subsistence, and also with a view to secure the lives of their children by sending them to those who had the means of feeding them; at this period there were emissaries sent among them for the purpose of inducing them to swerve from their duty; it was at this period they fought the battle of Porto Novo in 1781, which without their aid could never have been fought; such attachment to the government whose salt they eat, which is their common expression, shews, that if they are protected in their religion, their privileges, and their family rights, and that so long as they are so protected, we have nothing to apprehend from any combinations to overset our government. I believe they have no attachment to any form of political power.

April 29th.

The right hon. JOHN SULLIVAN in the chair.

esq. a Member of the House, was examined in substance as follows:

How long have you been in the civil service of the East India Company?—About 22 years: I was 21 years actually resident in India, at the Bengal presidency, in the revenue department.

Are you of opinion that the natives are a people peculiarly tenacious of their habits and prejudices?—They certainly are, very particularly so.

In the event of a free trade between this country and India, and many Englishmen being permitted to penetrate into the interior, is it your opinion that such permission would be attended with any, and what ill effects, to the peace and happiness of the natives?—I should conceive it to be dangerous; that it would be the cause of much oppression and persecution to the natives; and that it would be prejudicial to the British name, and consequently to the British interests.

Though Europeans are not allowed to purchase land, are they not allowed in Bengal to hold land by leases to the extent of about 50 begahs?—They are; and the same person is allowed to hold several detached spots of 50 begahs each.

Can you state what is about the average rate of those begahs—what is the extent of land they contain?—I understand there are three begahs to an acre.

Have the goodness to state whether those leases are not granted by zemindars?—They are; the lease is obtained first by the settler, and he sends it to the collector, who sends it to the board of revenue, for the sanction of government, for his holding his lands.

In consequence of this permission, have not Europeans the means of building habitations and manufactories, and holding them, up in the country as permanent property?—It is for the express purpose of enabling them to do that, that they are allowed, I believe.

Are there not actually many Europeans settled up the country in Bengal, upon property of this description, such as indigo manufacturers and others?—A considerable number; I before stated two or three, but I would wish to say, that we were in the habit of sending up every board-day at least one application for holding land to that extent.

Have you actually known such licensed Europeans so far misconduct themselves, as to make it necessary for the government to send them out of the country?—I have had to conduct enquiries sometimes into the conduct of those gentlemen, and I think it occurred to me in two instances, within the short space of two months, to recommend, that two gentlemen should be sent out of the district in which they had been allowed to reside. Those came accidentally under my official knowledge: I had nothing to do with the general superintendence of the conduct of those gentlemen, nor with the police of the country; but when any question arose, whether an European held lands directly or indirectly, such questions were referred to the board of revenue for report; and in the two instances I have alluded to, the evidence of their oppression of the ryots was so very strong, that though I do not know it actually came within the scope of our duty to recommend their removal, yet we did as much, which was, to suggest to the government, whether they were fit persons to be allowed to reside in the districts.

In the event of a free trade, if many persons, even with licences, were permitted to go into the interior of the country, do you not think the evil which has already arisen from the misconduct of licensed persons in Bengal, would be probably very much increased?—Certainly, I do; I am very apprehensive of a number of Europeans settling in the interior; I have heard a great deal of oppressions committed by them, and I feel rather strongly on that subject against the measure; a number of Europeans in the country would considerably tend to in- crease the evil, because I think those oppressions were generally occasioned by the quarrels of those Europeans amongst themselves, and indeed they generally came to light from the quarrels of the Europeans; the natives were not much in the habit, at least to my knowledge, of bringing complaints against Europeans; they were afraid; I only speak from my knowledge as a member of the board of revenue.

Are you then of opinion, that they are likely to sustain considerable injury rather than complain against Englishmen?—In the cases that I have known, as I have said before, the complaints were generally made known in consequence of some quarrel between Europeans: I therefore suppose that the natives were not in the habit of complaining: upon light occasions, certainly not: but a magistrate can speak much better to that than I can; I have never been a magistrate.

Are you of opinion, that if oppressions of the nature above stated, took place in many instances, they might create such a discontent among the native population, as would be dangerous to the stability of our government in India?—If in many instances they took place, I should think that danger might ensue; but it would be a considerable number of instances before there was any actual danger to our empire.

Supposing an unlimited influx of British subjects were allowed into the three presidencies, but under an absolute restriction from penetrating into the interior, is it your opinion that such restriction would prove effectual to prevent persons getting into the interior?—If I were to answer that theoretically, I should say, that I should suppose government could easily prevent it. But judging from what I have constantly seen, I do think it would be very difficult indeed to prevent it. The prohibitions against Europeans entering into the interior are at present very strong, but somehow or other they do Contrive to get into the interior, and actually do settle there. In short, I conceive that it much more depends upon the individual character of the magistrate than upon any general laws which government can lay clown. An active magistrate will certainly prevent Europeans from entering into the interior, and also will keep then from doing any gross acts of injustice while they are there; but in our service as in other parts of the world, there are persons sometimes appointed to offices who are not competent to them; and in such cases, the Europeans often do commit great mischief.

In your opinion, would a free trade with India produce any materially increased demand among the natives for European commodities?—I should rather think not; as far as I can judge of the natives their wants are very few, and those very easily satisfied, and where that is the case, with regard to the natural wants, I think they very seldom have many artificial wants.

Have the mass of the population in the Bengal provinces, either the desire or the means of purchasing British commodities?—I do not know what their desire may be; they certainly have not the means; and I should not suppose they have much the desire, because they are content, as I have before said, with gratifying those few natural wants that they have.

Do you think that the more opulent natives in the Bengal provinces have any great wish or taste for such articles, meaning European articles?—I think very little; as far as, I have seen, they have a few articles of glass ware, lustres, and those things; but I recollect, in the case of one very opulent man that they were very trumpery kind of articles, and I should doubt very much their having been bought actually at a shop; I should rather think that they were bought at the auction of an English gentleman.

Do the native domestics of Europeans adopt, in any degree, European habits?—None that I recollect.

Does the supply of European articles in India, according to the present system of trade, appear to you to be fully equal to the demand of the natives?—Certainly, I should suppose so, I have generally seen the bazars full of those articles which the natives ever use.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Can you form an opinion what the effect of separating the commercial transactions of British India from those hands, whoever they may be, in which the future government of the country may be lodged, would be, whether consistent with the interests of the British empire in India and in Europe?—That is a very general question; I conceive that it would be presumption in me to answer that by a plain yes or no, when so many intelligent persons differ upon the question; of course, every one who has heard the Indian ques- tion discussed, must have formed some opinion upon it; and all I can say upon that is, that I am against the separation.

Do you think that, practically, merely a power in the government of India to remove individuals who may go there under a parliamentary enactment, would be sufficient without a positive direction in the act of parliament, that any transgression or evasion of an order from government by any European, should ipso facto be followed by being sent out of the country, subject to the remission of that penalty by the government of India?—I think, that any thing which would tend to take away the odium to which government is subjected from the exercise of that very necessary power would be highly desirable.

Are there not tradesmen at Calcutta of all descriptions, such as coach-makers, cabinet-makers, upholsterers, workers in metals, persons employed in casting or making glass bottles, tanning leather, making accoutrements, harness, and all articles for which tanned leather is wanted, shoemakers and taylors?—I believe, generally, there are all those that have been described.

Has not the consequence of this been to have already lessened exceedingly the importation of those articles that formerly obtained vend at Calcutta?—In most instances, I conceive, if not in all.

JOHN STRACEY, esq. was called in, and examined as follows:

How long, and in what capacities, have you served the East India Company?—Between 14 and 15 years, in different departments; some time in the judicial department, and the rest as under secretary to government. On the Bengal establishment.—I was in the district of Tirhoot, in the province of Behar; and at Momensing, in the district of Dacca; and at Cawnpoor, in the ceded provinces.

From your experience, can you state, whether, under the system of the Company, the great mass of the natives of India live in a state of comfort and contentment?—I certainly think they do, in every respect.

With reference to the climate in which they live, are they comfortably lodged, fed, and clothed?—Speaking of them as a people in general, and according to their habits and customs, I consider the natives to be as well, as happy, and as contented as any set of people in the world.

Were the trade to India laid open, and British subjects permitted freely, or at least in greatly increased numbers, to pervade the interior of the country, would such an event, in your apprehension, tend to disturb the comfort and contentedness which you have described, or the reverse?—From the different instances I have known, I am certainly of opinion, that great disturbances would be excited amongst the natives by the Europeans, who would, in all probability, be guilty of the greatest excesses.

Is that opinion founded upon any specific experience?—Several different instances have occurred, both with Europeans out of the Company's service, and those in the Company's service, and also in the King's service—While in Tirhoot, I think there were two gentlemen, at different times, tried in Calcutta for maltreating the natives; one of them endeavouring to extort confession, on the idea of having been plundered; another on the charge of disfiguring some women; both of whom, I believe, were tried and convicted in the supreme court of the offences charged against them.—The disfiguring I believe was, taking off the end of their nose.

Did it happen in procuring from the nose the ornaments they usually wear there?—No, cutting off the tip of the nose; this gentleman was connected with a native female, who, through jealousy, mutilated the women as I have described, to which he was conceived to be an accessary, and was tried for that offence, and was convicted, I believe in Calcutta: I recollect an instance while I was sub-secretary, wherein a number of Lascars, denominated I believe Batta Lascars in Calcutta, the people whose profession it is to navigate vessels in the river, and to load and unload ships; many of those were employed in a ship in the river, the captain of which being short of hands, suddenly set sail and carried them away for Europe; the government, upon receiving information of this, took up a ship for the express purpose, and dispatched it with warm clothing to the Cape of Good Hope, to bring these people back, with the captain also, but whether it was successful or not, I do not know. There were several instances of misconduct also of Europeans, while I was magistrate of the district of Cawnpore. Some of the European soldiers were guilty of breaking into a house of an European trader, which house was defended by some native watchmen, in which one of the soldiers was killed, and the natives wounded; some of the former I apprehended and sent to Calcutta for trial, but they were immediately acquitted, in consequence of the proprietor of the house not thinking proper to prosecute in Calcutta, the distance being so great.

Were British subjects, in greatly increased numbers, to visit, or to pervade, the interior of the country, is it your opinion that such injuries as those which you have described, or other parallel atrocities, might be materially multiplied?—I certainly consider that great excesses would result; Europeans look upon the natives with a certain degree of contempt; they are often totally ignorant of their manners and habits; and some through ignorance, and some through intention, would be guilty of very great excesses.

You have stated, that in one of the instances referred to, the prosecution was dropped on the part of the oppressed party, by reason of the distance of the supreme court of judicature; is it your opinion that a frequent resort, on the part of the natives of the interior, to the supreme courts of judicature, would be morally practicable?—I believe not; in all cases, however, in which a native complains against an European for any act of felony, or violent oppression, by the present regulations, the expences of the natives, both plaintiff and witnesses, are always paid by the government, in order to enable them to proceed to Calcutta and return.

On the supposition that the offences in question became extremely frequent, would it be possible, coequally to extend that indulgence, through which the suffering parties are enabled to resort to justice at Calcutta?—That must depend, I should suppose, entirely upon the number of cases that would occur, and, consequently, upon the number of Europeans that might be allowed to reside in the interior of the country; if these occurrences were very frequent, the expence to government would be extreme; but I should suppose they would always allow it, as it is their present practice.

In spite of this indulgence, might not the natives in the interior suffer immense inconvenience from the necessity of making a long journey, before they could find the justice required?—Their being taken away from their houses and families and occupations, is a very great grievance; and in many instances they go into a cli- mate and country, of which they are totally ignorant.

Do you mean to imply, that the distance of the seat of justice would be a most serious inconvenience, even were that justice free?—The distance is the greatest inconvenience; for in many instances, I believe it may be extended as far as ten or twelve hundred miles.

Would it be possible, without offence to the national prejudices of Englishmen, to invest the courts of the British magistrates with criminal jurisdiction over British subjects in general?—I think, supposing the magistrate to have the power that he has at present of apprehending, that instead of sending them to Calcutta in all cases short of felony and murder, a remedy-might be found for giving the natives redress, by giving the courts of appeal or courts of circuit the power of deciding.

Are you of opinion that the trial by jury could be introduced into those courts?—Most undoubtedly not; I do not think it possible.

In your judgment, would the frequent exercise of a coercive and despotic authority over the persons of British subjects, on the part of the British government, or its public functionaries, in any manner affect the estimation in which the natives generally hold the British character and name?—That is a matter so completely of opinion, that I really do not know exactly how to answer that question; as an opinion of my own, I think it would; but it is merely a matter of opinion.—My opinion is founded upon so very few cases of Europeans, that I can only judge from them; the natives certainly would think an European degraded, by being frequently-brought into the court; for the higher sort of natives think themselves extremely degraded by being so brought into a court of justice; and they would attach that degree of degradation to the Europeans, I apprehend, that they do to themselves.

Have you ever known any instances of unlicensed European adventurers wandering through the interior of the country?—While at Cawnpore, I think I recollect one instance of a British subject having absconded from one of the Company's ships on the coast of Malabar across the peninsula, coming into the district of Cawnpore, when the police officer immediately apprehended him and sent him to me; and I, with the authority of government, sent him to Calcutta. There were some other instances; one of a French- man, who came up to Cawnpore as a trader; he was also apprehended, and by the orders of government sent to Calcutta; a third was an officer, who had been in the service of Scindiah, and wounded at the battle of Assaye; he was, I believe, a half cast, but being in European dress he was apprehended by the police; I sent him to lord Lake, then with the army; I am not perfectly sure whether he was detained by lord Lake, or sent to Calcutta.

You have stated, that you saw at Cawnpore an adventurer who had crossed from the Malabar coast; can you state, roughly, what distance that person must have travelled?—I should think about thirteen or fourteen hundred miles.—He must have come through the country possessed by Holkar and by Scindiah, and a part of the territories of the ranah of Gohud.

In your judgment may the natives of India be described as both an agricultural and a manufacturing people?—Most undoubtedly.

In both characters do they not work far more cheaply than the natives of this country, or of Europe in general?—There is no comparison; every thing is much cheaper, the articles of clothing, and other articles, and their labour is much cheaper; that varied of course in different parts in which I was situated; I think in the Dacca province it did not amount to more than 3s. 6d. or 3s. 9d. per month; in Behar to about 5s,; and at Cawnpore to about 7s. 6d.

The gains of the labouring classes in general being thus limited, have they the means of purchasing European commodities?—I certainly should think not; I do not see how it is possible.

You have stated the gains of the labouring classes in India as incomparably smaller than those of the labouring classes in Europe; do you mean to imply that the comforts of the former are less in the same proportion?—The native of India, I conceive, is as happy and contented in his situation as any of the lower orders of people are in this country.

Are not the simplicity and frugality of the native habits agreeable to the nature of the climate under which they live?—Yes.

Is it your judgment then, that the cheapness of living and of labour in India proceeds from accidental and precarious causes, or is rooted in, the climate, soil, produce, and inveterate usages of the country?—I think it is from the permanent cause of climate and of soil.

In your judgment, is it probable, that under any circumstances, the mass of the natives of India will draw a great portion of the commodities which they ordinarily use from this country?—I do not know that they use any thing in their ordinary use from Europe, except it is some few woollens or broad-cloths, which they may have accidentally got at a very cheap rate.

Are they likely to use European commodities under any change of system which can be adopted?—I should think not.

Do you consider the Indian markets are at present fully stocked with European commodities?—I had very little opportunity of observing that; but from the frequent and continual sales of European articles in Calcutta by auction, the native^* had every opportunity of procuring the articles they wished, if they had the means of purchasing them.

Were those articles, in fact, to be had at very cheap rates?—Sometimes I believe they were, and generally, I understood, not exceeding the European price.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Can you form any opinion of the proportion the Mussulmen bear to the Hindoos, in point of number?—In the district of Momensing I made a calculation, as well as I now recollect, of the inhabitants of the district, who amounted to between 16 and 1700,000; the proportion, as well as I could form an opinion from those who attended the public courts, bore about five to three in favour of the Hindoo.

In the upper provinces how does the proportion stand, in your idea?—At Cawnpore I made a calculation of the inhabitants, in consequence of an order of government to endeavour to ascertain the consumption of salt, but the precise number of the inhabitants, or the proportion of Hindoo inhabitants, I do not at this moment recollect; I think the Hindoos are more numerous there, in proportion to the Mahomedans, than they are in the eastern parts of Bengal.

Do you consider those Mussulmen who have been put down from the offices of power and emolument equally contented with the British sovereignty as the Hindoos are?—Most undoubtedly not, for men who have been in the habit of having arbitrary power and authority do not like to relinquish it.

Do you apprehend that disturbance to any extent among the Mussulmen might produce danger to the British sovereignty as long as the Hindoos are contented-and satisfied with the British government?—That depends entirely upon the leader or the individual who might start up; in the tipper provinces, a man of ability, whether he was a Hindoo or a Mahomedan, would in those provinces be followed, I conceive, by a great number of both sects.

May 3rd.

THOMAS SYDENHAM, esq. was called in, and examined in substance as follows:

You have been in the military service of the East India Company?—Yes, I have for 12 years; principally at the presidency of Madras.—I was also secretary of legation at the court of Hydrabad, acting resident at the court of Poonah, and afterwards resident at the court of Hydrabad for 5 years.—I was acquainted with the Persian and Hindostannee languages.

From the circumstance of being acquainted with the languages of the country and from your residence in India, were you enabled to make accurate observations upon the characters, manners and habits of the Hindoos?—From my knowledge of the Persian and Hindostannee languages, and from the habits of transacting business with the natives of India, I have of course been enabled to form some judgment of the manners and customs of all the natives of India; but more of the Mussulmen than of the Hindoos.

Do you think that the Mussulmen are a people that are jealous of any violation of, or insult to, their opinions or institutions?—Certainly; I do not know any description of men who are more jealous of any violation or insult offered to their habits and prejudices than the Mussulmen, from that character of bigotry and fanaticism, for which they have been distinguished, I believe in every period.

Are you of opinion also, that the Hindoos are a people tenacious of their own modes of acting and thinking, and jealous of any violation of them?—I should suppose more tenacious than perhaps any description of human beings.

In the event of a free trade being established between this country and India, were many Englishmen unacquainted with the language, manners, and prejudices of the natives to penetrate into the interior of the country, do you think it would have any, and what, effect upon the peace and happiness of the natives of that country?—If any great number of Europeans, unacquainted with the language and habits of the natives of India, were permitted to roam unrestrained through the interior of the country, I should conceive that the most mischievous consequences would ensue, both to the tranquillity and happiness of the natives themselves, and ultimately to the stability of our government in that country.

Are you then of opinion, that one of the effects of such an influx might be to create discontents among the natives against the British government?—I believe that the principal reason why the natives of India are so well satisfied with the government under which they now live, is the degree of tranquillity and happiness which they enjoy under that government; and if that tranquillity and happiness were violated by the circumstances to which I have alluded in my answer to the previous question, I should certainly suppose that the natural consequence of that would be, to produce a considerable portion of discontent towards the government.

Having resided long in the territories of the Nizam, do you think any ill consequence would follow from such persons, as have been alluded to in the former questions, penetrating into those territories?—I think that mischievous consequences would arise, but of a nature different from those to which I have already alluded; the probable consequence of the introduction of any large number of Europeans into the dominions of the Nizam, would be to indispose the chieftains, and probably the Nizam himself, to the continuance of that alliance, which I conceive to be the basis of our political prosperity in India; the mode in which this would take place would probably be, that such Europeans would be taken into the service, not of the Nizam himself, but of the great jaghiredars, chieftains, and vassals of the Nizam; it would be always easy for the resident to prevent the Nizam from employing any number of Europeans, however small, in his service; but it would be extremely difficult to ascertain what Europeans might make their way clandestinely into the states of the different jaghiredars, who exercise almost an independent authority and jurisdiction over the estates or jaghires which belong to them; and over whom, as the Nizam scarcely exercises any superior control or authority, it would be of course proportionably difficult for the resident to use any influence, either in preventing them from receiving those Europeans into their service, or prevailing upon them to dismiss them, after they should have so entered.

Having been so long a time resident at Hydrabad, are you of opinion that the treaties with the Nizam would not prevent the entertainment of Europeans by the chieftains and jaghiredars whom you have mentioned?—The power which the resident can exercise, under the stipulation of those treaties, is to call upon the Nizam to dismiss from his service any Europeans against whom the British government may have any objection; and as long as the Nizam is disposed to execute all the stipulations of that treaty, of course there would be no difficulty in procuring the dismissal of any Europeans against whom the resident might object; but the case with respect to the jaghiredars is different in many instances; the Nizam can exercise but a very small degree of authority over those jaghiredars, and the resident has no other power over those jaghiredars, than that which can be exercised through the paramount sovereign of the state; this exists to such a degree, that in one instance, it was necessary for the resident to threaten a jaghiredar with the presence of a considerable force belonging to the Company, before he could prevail upon him to give up some deserters from one of his Majesty's regiments; of course, this expedient was not resorted to, until the Nizam confessed to the resident that it was not in his power to oblige the jaghiredar to give up those deserters, and therefore authorised the resident to employ the means which he had at his disposal, in compelling the jaghiredar of the Nizam to submit to the authority of his own sovereign; in all such cases, it would be extremely difficult, in some cases impossible, for the resident to procure the dismissal of such Europeans, except by the actual employment of a military force; whenever that expedient was adopted, of course, there could be no difficulty in obliging any of the jaghiredars either to give up Europeans, or to submit to the authority of the Nizam in any point.

Do you think that those inferior chieftains and jaghiredars might entertain Europeans in their service without its coming to the knowledge of the resident at Hydrabad?—Very probably; I should conceive it is impossible for the resident, however vigilant he may be, to become acquainted with all the circumstances that take place on the estates of jaghiredars and chieftains, who I have already described exercising independent authority over those possessions; the first intelligence which will probably reach the resident of any Europeans being in the service of any particular jaghiredar, would be the improvement of the military force belonging to that jaghiredar; but they may have remained for some time, and may have exercised a very dangerous influence, before the resident should have received any intelligence of their having been there.

From the knowledge which you have of the tastes and habits of the natives of Hindostan, are you of opinion that in the event of a free trade being established between this country and that, there will be any materially increased demand in Hindostan, among the natives, for European produce or manufactures?—I beg to confine my observations to that part of the peninsula which is generally called the Deccan, that portion of territory which lies between the rivers Godavery and the Nerbuddah: the chief part of the population of that country is Hindoo, especially those provinces which are under the Mahrattah government; there is a considerable population of Mussulmen in the provinces under the dominion of the Nizam; there is scarcely any remarkable place throughout the whole of that tract, that I have not visited during the period of my residence, either at Poonah or at Hydrabad; with respect to that part of the population which is Hindoo, I should not conceive that any change in the system of trade between this country and India, would be likely to produce any increase in the demand for articles of European produce or manufacture; with regard to the Mussulmen part of the population, that portion of it who are agriculturists, have adopted nearly all the habits and customs of the Hindoos; and, with regard to them, the same observation may apply which has already been made respecting the Hindoos at Hydrabad, and some of the great towns in the Deccan; there are many Mussulmen inhabitants, either attached to the court or employed in the military service of the Nizam, who are men of considerable private fortunes, and of habits of expence; it is probable in this class of the Mussulmen inhabitants, there may be some considerable en-crease of demand for the productions of Europe, if by any change in the system of carrying on the trade the prices of those commodities were considerably lowered; but the encrease would be inconsiderable, and scarcely sufficient, I should conceive, to merit the attention of the government of this country; for ten years previously to the conclusion of the last commercial treaty with the Nizam, the average of the imports of European goods did not exceed 24,000l. a year; and as late as the year 1809, I could not ascertain that the imports had gone much beyond that sum.

In those parts of Hindostan with which you have been acquainted, have the general mass of the population the means of purchasing European commodities if they were so inclined?—It has appeared to me, that the general mass of the population in every part of India with which I am acquainted, have not the means, even if they had the wish, of purchasing any considerable proportion of European goods; the surplus beyond the supply of their immediate necessities being always consumed in their festivals, marriages, and other religious ceremonies.

Having stated that there are many Mussulmen noblemen of considerable private fortunes at Hydrabad, who might purchase European commodities if they were so inclined; state to the Committee in what manner they are accustomed to spend their superfluous wealth?—All the noblemen at the court of Hydrabad are employed in the military service of their sovereign; they have been bred up either as soldiers or as courtiers, and they expend their fortunes either in keeping up as large a retinue of servants and dependents as their fortune will allow, or consume their wealth in the profligacy and corruption of the court at which they reside; many of the noblemen have expended some part of their fortune in fitting up their houses rather in the English mode; but after the novelty had ceased, they generally returned to their former habits, and seemed to repent of the sums which had been expended in the imitation of our habits.

Is not the Nizam himself considered as one of the most wealthy princes in India?

—I believe the Nizam to be the wealthiest individual now in India.

Does the Nizam expend any considerable amount of his wealth in the purchase of European produce or manufactures?—I did not observe that the Nizam expended any portion of his private wealth in the purchase of any articles of European manufacture, except for such woollens as were necessary to caparison his elephants, camels, and horses; the presents which have been made to the Nizam at several periods being quite sufficient to supply him with such articles of taste or luxury as he might wish to have.

During the time you were at Hydrabad, did you yourself make considerable presents of European articles to the Nizam?—I had on one occasion an opportunity of making European presents to the Nizam, to a considerable amount; the circumstances which gave rise to those presents being made, were, that a fourth of the second share of the Seringapatam prize-money was to be paid to the Nizam, and the government wished that the share should be paid in articles of European manufacture rather than in specie; on this occasion, I procured from Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay, such articles as I thought would be most to the taste of his highness; amongst other articles there were a considerable quantity of the finest woollens, two or three services of English china, a complete service of English plate, a service of cut glass, and in short, every article that was likely to captivate the taste of an eastern prince; after having made these presents, I had occasion to inquire to what uses they had been applied, and I found that they had been locked up in what is called toshikhana, or royal magazine belonging to the Nizam: on visiting those magazines, I found that they were filled with every article of European manufacture, in the greatest abundance; I passed through several rooms filled from the floor near to the ceiling, with bales of woollen, with cases of plate, glass ware, china ware, clocks, watches, and every other article of European manufacture, both of France and of England; those articles had been given either to the reigning Nizam, his father, or his grandfather, by the different governments in India, and different residents, both French and English, at his court, as far back as the time of Dupleix and Bussy; and some of the articles had even come direct from Louis the 15th and 16th of France; all those articles had been locked up in the royal magazines, had never been used after they had been first seen; and it is probable that they will there continue for an indefinite period. Of the presents which I had occasion to make to his highness, the only article of which he made any use, was a silver tea-pot; and I believe every other part of the considerable presents which I had made to him, were shut up in the magazine, with all the other articles that had been there for so long a period; from this circumstance, I conclude, that it is not likely that the present Nizam, at least, will expend any portion of his enormous wealth in the purchase of any articles of European produce or manufacture.

While you were at Hydrabad a commercial treaty was concluded between the East India Company and the Nizam for the purpose of facilitating commercial intercourse between the countries?—A commercial treaty was concluded between the Nizam and the Company, during the period that I was at Hydrabad as secretary of legation; the principal object of that treaty was, to encourage and facilitate the trade between the Company's provinces and the territories of the Nizam; previously to the conclusion of that treaty, a great number of exorbitant vexatious duties had been imposed upon the trade between the two countries; those duties were collected partly on the frontier, partly on the road between the frontier and the capital, and partly at the capital itself; the objection to those duties was, first, that they were very exorbitant, amounting, in some instances, to nearly 45 per cent.; that they were uncertain in the amount, as many of them were collected by the jaghiredars of the provinces through which the goods passed, and that the goods themselves were subject to great delays, and the merchants to considerable impositions on the part of the officers belonging to those jaghiredars; by the commercial treaty between the Nizam and the Company, the whole of the frontier and road duties were abolished, and one duty of five per cent. ad valorem was to be collected in future at the capital itself.

Did the commercial treaty that you have just stated, by the reduction of duties and the removal of the vexatious impediments of trade you have mentioned, increase in any considerable degree in the territories of the Nizam, the demand for European commodities?—The trade between the Nizam and those of the Company in articles of European produce and manufacture was so trifling, as scarcely to be affected by the advantages of the commercial treaty; the principal trade which was carried on between those territories was the supply of cotton from the province of Berar, to that part of the Company's territories known by the name of the Northern Circars; some cotton is also sent to the markets at Vellore and Arnee, and other places in that neighbourhood; the merchants who carry the cotton from the Nizam's territories into the Company's territories, return with cargoes of salt and salt fish, with some of the manufactured cloths of the Northern Circars, and with that kind of muslin manufactured in the neighbourhood of Arnee, called, I believe, the Arnee muslins; it was principally for the purpose of giving facility to this trade between the inhabitants of the respective territories, that the treaty was concluded with the Nizam by the Company.

Is it your opinion, that, according to the present system of trade, the mutual wants of the inhabitants of the Nizam's territories, and those of the East India Company, are adequately and fully supplied?—Certainly; when I left India, it appeared to me that all the wants of the inhabitants of the Nizam's territories were fully and adequately supplied; but those wants were chiefly confined to the importation of salt and salt fish, in exchange for the cotton, which was sent to the manufacturing provinces under the Company's dominion.

Are the cities and large towns in the dominions of the Nizam well supplied with, European articles, if there should be any demand for them among the natives?—Not only the principal cities and towns, but many of the larger description of villages, throughout the cultivated parts of the Deccan, appeared to me to be abundantly supplied with all such articles of European manufacture as the natives are generally in want of; and they are supplied by a race of men, who purchase those commodities at Bombay, and retail them over the whole of the Deccan.

State what those articles are which are usually consumed by the natives?—Those articles consist principally of woollens, English chintzes, knives, scissars, razors, spectacles, looking glasses, small prints, and articles of that description, what are called hardware.

Were there any increased demand among the natives for those articles; could that demand be readily supplied, under the present system, either from the India Company's warehouses, or from other sources?—As the increase, supposing any increase to take place, would probably be small, I should suppose there would be no difficulty whatsoever in supplying those articles to the extent for which any demand might be made for them; and even if the increase should be more considerable than I conceive it likely to become, I should think, there could be no difficulty in supplying them, either from the Company's warehouses, or from the private trade carried on by the captains and officers of the Company's ships. I believe that most of those articles are procured at Bombay and Madras from the public sales at those presidencies, after the ships have left them; the principal part of the investments of the captains of India-men are purchased up by the European inhabitants at the presidencies, and the surplus is generally sold at public auction, and bought by small dealers, and carried into the interior of the country.

Do you know whether the articles, which you have just spoken of as being sold by auction at the presidencies, are visually sold at those auctions at high or at low prices?—Chiefly at very low prices; indeed, on most occasions, I believe, considerably tinder the prime cost of the articles.

Are you of opinion that, in the event of a free trade, there would be any considerable vent for the woollens of this country in the interior parts of India?—In that part of India with which I am most acquainted, namely the Deccan, I do not conceive that any reasonable reduction of price would increase the demand for woollens; the inhabitants of that part of India are obliged to use warm clothing for two or three months in the year. At Hydrabad, and in the provinces to the north of that capital, the thermometer, during three months in the year, is often as low as 45, 40, and 35 of Fahreneit; but the inhabitants are enabled to protect themselves against this degree of cold by the common manufactures of those provinces, the lower classes by a woollen, which is called the comely; and the higher classes by shawls and quilted silks, known, I believe, in this country by the name of susee: a few of the noblemen and military men at the court of Hydrabad, clothe themselves in broad cloth; but it appeared to me more as a fashion or a luxury, than as any habitual common use of the woollens, in preference to the other kinds of warm clothing of which they are in possession.

Can you state to the Committee, the comparative prices of the comely and any coarse woollen manufactures we could introduce into the country, as a substitute for them?—I really am not able to state from recollection the comparative prices between the comely and the coarsest kind of woollens; I should conceive that the comely is much cheaper and more durable than any kind of woollen that we could introduce into India: the comely is considered to be so comfortable and durable a species of clothing, that most of the King's regiments in India prefer them to the woollen cloaks which their colonels formerly sent out for the use of their regiments; and as this has been done partly because the comely has been found as comfortable, and partly because it is much cheaper than the woollen cloaks sent out by the colonels to their regiments in India, I conclude that it would be impossible to send any kind of woollens, even of the coarsest texture, to India, which should answer the purpose of warm clothing, either so well as the comely, or at so cheap a rate.

State to the Committee the size of the comely, its length or breadth?—I am not able to state precisely the dimensions of the comely, but it appeared to me to answer the purposes of a cloak in walking, and of a blanket at night: I should suppose they might be made about two yards and a half long, though I cannot speak with precision.

Does it appear to you that the more opulent people in India prefer their own woollen manufactures, such as shawls, to ours?—In general, I think, that they admire our manufactures, and are very happy to receive them as presents; but for most purposes, I think they generally prefer their own woollens, and especially their own stuffed silks, which are softer, lighter, and warmer than our woollens.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Do you know of any danger that has arisen to the government and tranquillity of India, from the admission of Americans to the principal settlements in India?—As I have lived very little at any of the Company's presidencies, I am really not much acquainted with what has occurred beyond circumstances of public notoriety; but I have never heard of any danger to the Company's government from the occasional residence of the Americans at those presidencies.

Do you apprehend that any danger could arise to the government and tranquillity of India from granting the same privileges to British subjects, that have been granted to Americans, and subjects of other states in amity with this country?—I am not acquainted with the privileges which have been granted to the Americans; but I do not conceive that any danger is to be apprehended from the residence of Europeans, under proper restraint and controul, at any of the Company's presidencies.

Do you know that there has been any intercourse, on the part of the Americans, with the British settlements, further than touching at them in their ships; do you know of their having resided on shore at the principal settlements, or in the interior?—I have never known of any Americans having resided either at the presidencies, or in any other part of India, for any time beyond that which was necessary for the purposes of concluding the business of the voyage on which they came to India.

As you have stated, that Europeans may remain among the jaghiredars without the knowledge of the Nizam, do you conceive such a number could be concealed from him as would occasion any serious danger, either to his authority, or to the interests and security of the Company?—In answering this question, I would beg leave to state the following circumstance: at the period when the French force in the service of the Nizam was dissolved by the last treaty of alliance between his highness and the Company, considerable pains were taken to remove from the Nizam's dominions all the French and other foreign officers who had been serving in those corps; a part of that force was placed under the immediate command of English officers, and employed in the last campaign in the Mysore, seven years after the surrender of Seringapatam. It was reported to me, that some of these corps continued to be exercised in the French manœuvres, and with French words of command; as this naturally excited my attention to the state of the whole corps, I thought proper to recommend to the Nizam, that the corps should be disciplined according to the English system, and receive their words of command in English, in order that they might be enabled to move with the Company's corps forming the subsidiary force. When I had obtained the permission of the Nizam to carry this measure into effect, I sent an English officer to one of the corps to make the alteration which I had suggested; but the sepoys refused to receive the English system of discipline, or to be commanded in the English langaage: the officer attempted to enforce obedience to his orders, and a mutiny took place: this led to the reform of the whole corps; and in the progress of that reform, I detected, and had to send out of the country from 20 to 30 European foreigners and half casts, whose existence in the Nizam's dominions I had before been a perfect stranger to. After that reform I adopted such measures as appeared to me most likely to prevent the recurrence of such a circumstance; and I believe, that with regard to the Nizam's service, it would be very difficult, indeed impossible, for any Europeans to be employed in that service without the knowledge and the sanction of the resident; but the case is different with regard to the jaghiredars; and although I do not conceive, that while the resident exercises a becoming degree of vigilance, and is supported with sufficient authority from the Nizam, that it would be possible for any Europeans in the service of those jaghiredars, to excite disturbances, or to indispose the minds of the jaghiredars sufficiently to become openly hostile and dangerous, still they certainly might lessen the attachment of those jaghiredars to the Nizam, and might indispose their minds towards the alliance with the Company, to such a degree as would at all events be, I cannot say very dangerous, but extremely inconvenient; and in the event of any invasion from an enemy, might be the means of inducing those persons to join the standard of any prince in open hostility against the Nizam and the Company. I think it would be difficult for any large number of Europeans to be concealed for any time in the estates of the jaghiredars, without the knowledge of the resident; but I certainly conceive that a few might be concealed, and for some time exercise a very dangerous influence without the knowledge of the resident. In the event of the Nizam himself being disposed to shake off his connection with the Company, I should then conceive that the residence of a very few Europeans, men of talent, and of desperate habits of life, in the Nizam's dominions, would be productive of the most mischevious consequences.

Do you not conceive that in the districts in which you have resided, the natives would prefer British manufactures, equally suited to their own use, if cheaper, than those articles they themselves manufacture?—I believe that if goods of British manufacture could be carried into India cheaper than those which are produced in India, many natives would prefer them; but I really am not prepared to say whether the great bulk of the inhabitants would not prefer their own manufactures to those of any foreign country, even supposing the others could be procured at a cheaper rate and equally suited to their consumption: it must be considered that a great number of the inhabitants are employed in those manufactures, and gain their livelihood by those manufactures; and this consideration alone would induce most people to give the preference to their own manufactures, even if they could procure other articles equally suited to their consumption, at rather a cheaper rate.

Do you think these patriotic motives would operate upon the great mass of the district, to which you allude?—I think those motives would naturally operate in a great degree, as long as the price of the foreign goods was not considerably less than their own manufactures; if the price should fall considerably, I confess, in that case, it is probable that the natives would prefer a thing much cheaper, provided it was equally good.

Is the Committee to understand it to be your opinion, that the natives are at present furnished with woollens manufactured in India, suitable to their use, at a cheaper rate than they can be supplied from Europe with the same articles?—Certainly, I conceive that to be the case, though I am not prepared to state the exact difference in price.

What is the number of the principal jaghiredars under the Nizam's government?—It would be rather difficult to answer that question, because, in fact, every military man, who has more than from fifty to a hundred horse in the service of the Nizam, is a jaghiredar.

The number upon the whole, is considerable?—It is; The jaghiredars are of two descriptions; the Hindoo jaghiredars or zemindars, such as the rajah of Sholapore, who possessed those estates from the commencement almost of the first kings of; the Deccan, and over whom the Nizam exercises a very uncertain and undefined authority; the other description of jaghiredars, are the military officers in the service of the Nizam, and of those I sup pose, that there cannot be less than from forty to fifty principal.

The whole country is under the management, in a subordinate way, of those jaghiredars, of one description or another?—Almost the whole of the country; with the exception only of church lands, what may be called the crown lands, and small parts of the territory which are held by the old Hindoo zemindars. [The Witness withdrew.]

May 4th.

THOMAS SYDENHAM, esq. was again called in, and further examined by the Committee as follows:

You stated in your evidence yesterday, that a commercial treaty had been concluded with the Nizam, while you were resident at Hydrabad; were any measures taken by the government of India to avail itself of the encouragement and facility afforded to trade by that treaty, either by sending goods for sale to the market of Hydrabad, or by permitting private European traders to establish themselves at that capital,—and if so, what was the effect of those measures?—After the conclusion of the commercial treaty between the Nizam and the Company, the government of India was disposed to establish a warehouse at Hydrabad; but on enquiry it was found that such a measure would not be productive of any advantage to the public, and in consequence of the opinion of the resident, that plan was laid aside. At the same time, government caused it to be known to some of the houses of agency both at Calcutta and Madras, that they might send up their agents to Hydrabad, for the purpose of supplying the market at Hydrabad and its neighbouring provinces with, certain articles of European and Chinese produce and manufactures. In consequence, of this notification, the house of Messrs. Colt, Baker, and Company, did send up an agent of the name of Richardson to Hydrabad for the purpose of establishing a house of business at that capital, and of selling articles of European and Chinese produce and manufactures: I was at Hydrabad when this agent arrived at that capital, but being shortly after compelled to return to England, I was not present to watch the progress of that establishment: On my return, however, to Hydrabad, in about three years after that period, I found that the concern had completely failed; that Messrs. Colt and Baker, the principals, had withdrawn their agent: the bu- siness, however, was afterwards carried on by another person of the name of Robinson, who in the course of a few months, found it impossible to sell off, to any advantage, the goods which he had procured from Madras and Calcutta, and was compelled to send part of them back to Madras, and to sell the remainder by public auction at very reduced prices; the loss sustained by Mr. Robinson in this transaction was so considerable, that I believe he would have been ruined, if it had not been in my power to procure him a situation under the Nizam's government; as I was anxious to afford every facility and encouragement within my power to Mr. Robinson, and as he stated to me, that he probably would succeed, if a district in the Nizam's dominions were made over to him for the purpose of superintending in person the manufacture of cloths, and other articles, I obtained from his highness the Nizam, a grant for three years, of the very district which Mr. Robinson pointed out to me as the one most likely to answer his purpose; however, at the end of six or eight months, Mr. Robinson, notwithstanding every encouragement and support was afforded to him by the Nizam's government, was anxious to restore the district to the Nizam's authority, and abandoned his speculation altogether. The second instance which I shall mention, is the establishment of a shop for the sale of European goods in the city of Hydrabad: the house of Hope and Company had for some time opened a shop in the cantonment of the Company's subsidiary force; and as some of the natives from the city of Hydrabad resorted to that shop, for the purchase of various European articles, it occurred to Mr. Hope, and to his agent in the cantonment, that it might be advantageous to open a shop within the walls of the city of Hydrabad, so as to enable the inhabitants of that city to have free access whenever they chose to that shop, instead of being obliged, as they had formerly been, to obtain the permission of the Nizam's government to visit the cantonment; as it was my wish to afford every facility in my power to the view of those private traders, I requested and obtained from the minister of the Nizam's government, permission for Mr. Hope's agent to open a shop in the city of Hydrabad; the minister gave him a house, and convenient magazines for the reception of his goods; we gave him a guard to protect the premises, and afforded him every possible degree of encouragement and support; however, in a very short time, Mr. Hope's agent found it impossible to dispose of such a quantity of European goods as would make the concern at all an advantageous one; and the agent himself, in a short time, could sell nothing but wines and spirituous liquors. As the principal object for which the shop was established had completely failed, and as I conceived it would be disreputable to permit an European to keep merely a brandy shop in the city of Hydrabad, where, of course, many disturbances take place from the quarrels of persons in a state of intoxication, I withdrew the licence which I had given to Mr. Hope's agent, and he returned to his former shop within the precincts of the British cantonment. These are the results of the only establishments which were attempted at Hydrabad, for the purpose of increasing the sale of European goods.

How are the troops in the service of the Nizam clothed, armed, and equipped, and from what sources are the supplies procured?—All the cavalry of the Nizam clothe themselves according to their own taste and fancy; the regular infantry in his highness's service is now clothed in red British cloth, in order to reader their appearance as similar as possible to the Company's troops stationed within his dominions; they are armed from the Company's stores; and they are equipped with accoutrements made either at Masulipatam or at Madras; since the introduction of the red clothing amongst the regular infantry of the Nizam, the principal jaghiredars have also clothed their troops in the same manner, and this indeed is one of the principal demands for our woollens within the dominions of his highness the Nizam.

What number may the regular infantry be in the Nizam's service, so clothed?—From 12 to 15,000, besides 7 or 8,000 in the service of the jaghiredars.

What, in your opinion, is the general moral character of the Hindoos?—It is really very difficult to give the character of so very large a portion of the human race, who, although they possess many qualities in common, are of course distinguished by strong shades of difference in different parts of India; those shades of difference arising from the climate under which they live; the government to which they are subject; the casts which prevail more in some parts of India than in others; their habits and occupations, and other circumstances, which in all countries produce a difference in the moral character of men; for instance, the character of the Mahrattas, most of whom have been nurtured and brought up in the exercise of arms, and the practice of war, and in those habits of depredation which is the basis of their political character, must of course be very different from the character of the Hindoos in the more peaceable provinces of the south; again, the character of the northern Hindoos, who inhabit the country between the Nerbudda and the Attock, who are almost all of a military tribe; the cast of Rajpoots and Rajwars, who are governed by petty princes, and divided into small independent states, in continual conflict with each other, have a character very different from the Hindoos of the southern provinces, and even from the tribes of the Mahratta nation: to define the moral character of so extensive a nation, within the compass of any answer which it may be in my power to give to the Committee, will be of course extremely difficult; but I think the general character of the Hindoo is submissive, docile, sober, inoffensive, as long as his religious prejudices and habits are not violated; capable of great attachment and loyalty, as long as they are well treated by their governors and masters; quick in apprehension, intelligent, active, generally honest, and performing the duties of charity, benevolence, and filial affection, with as much sincerity and regularity as any nation with which I am acquainted.

Are the Hindoo women kept in a state of slavery, degradation or seclusion?—I have never observed that the Hindoo women are kept in a state of slavery, degradation or seclusion; I believe that they are permitted to go abroad whenever they chuse upon their domestic concerns, and frequently for the mere purposes of exercise and amusement; they are to be seen in every town and village of the country; they manage the internal concerns of their families; and it has always struck me, that they are treated with great confidence by their relations, and with respect by strangers. While I was resident at Poonah, I had frequently occasion to transact business with the ministers of the Mahratta court, in the private apartments of their dwellings; on most of those occasions I have seen their women, and they have sometimes been present at the transaction of ordinary business between the minister and myself. The only degradation amongst the Hindoo women with which I am acquainted, is the state of the widow after the death of her husband; the widow has the hair of her head shaved, and is obliged to do all the menial offices of the family. I have known many Hindoo women, however, in this state, when her children had not been of age, conducting the business of the family, having the management of the estate belonging to the family, employing agents and attornies at the Mahratta court, and in short, doing every thing in the direction and management of the family which women in similar circumstances in Europe do.

Would it be advantageous that all courts-martial for the trial of natives, should be composed partly of European and partly of native commissioned officers?—I certainly think, that many advantages would arise from this plan being adopted: first, because I have always observed that the natives are much better satisfied with any decision proceeding from an European tribunal, than from a tribunal composed entirely of their own countrymen: in many cases, according to the present system, the proceedings of native courts-martial, are almost entirely directed and regulated by an European officer; if a regimental court-martial, by an European adjutant of the regiment; if a general court-martial, by an European officer employed as judge advocate. During the period that I was adjutant of a native corps, I found it often necessary to exercise my influence in preventing the native members of the court-martial from coming to unjust decisions; they are mostly very illiterate, and perfectly unacquainted with the laws of evidence, and their decision is generally founded upon their knowledge of the character of the prisoner rather than upon the evidence regarding the crimes before them. In some cases, where the evidence is by no means sufficient to convict the prisoner, I have asked, what could tempt them to find the man guilty, and sentence him to corporal punishment? and I have been answered, It is true, the prisoner is not guilty of the crimes now laid to his charge, but he is a man of bad character, a notorious offender, and a slight punishment would, perhaps, prevent him from committing such crimes as are now laid to his charge: secondly, I think the adoption of this plan would be advantageous in accustoming the European officers of native corps, to sit upon regi- mental courts-martial; an advantage from which they are debarred by the present regulations of the service; it would make the junior officers of the corps better acquainted with the language, characters, and habits of the men under their command, and would prepare them to sit upon general courts-martial, to which they are now very often summoned without the slightest knowledge or experience of that important branch of their duty.

Do you conceive that the Mussulmen are equally contented with the British sovereignty as the Hindoos are?—I should conceive not.

Would discontents to any extent among the Mussulmen produce danger to the British sovereignty, as long as the Hindoos are satisfied with the British government?—I should conceive that considerable danger would arise from any discontent among a very considerable body of the Mussulmen inhabitants of India; at the same time, I do not conceive that the danger would proceed so far as the extinction of our power in India, as long as we possess the attachment of the Hindoos.

Might not such an union be fatal to the British power?—Certainly; if to considerable discontent among one portion of the inhabitants, an equal discontent amongst the other portion be added, so that the whole population of India were discontented, I should conceive that such an union would be fatal to the British interest in India.

Do you apprehend that the late melancholy catastrophe at Vellore affords room to apprehend, that the discontented Mussulmen chiefs might avail themselves of the indiscretion of any persons high in office, on the part of the British government, showing disrespect to their usages, that it might produce similar events as those which took place at Vellore, and which might have more extensive consequences?—If it were possible for me to conceive that what is termed the indiscretion of the European authorities in India, could be carried to so desperate a length as to violate the religion, prejudices, and habits of the Hindoos, I should certainly conceive that the Mussulmen chiefs in India would not have much difficulty in exciting disturbances and insurrections, of which the consequences would be much more extensive than those which occurred some years ago at Vellore.

Are you acquainted with the state of the trades and manufactures that are now carried on under British artificers through the means of native labourers, in the different presidencies you are acquainted with?—I am so far acquainted with this subject as to know, that various branches of manufacture and handicraft have been considerably improved at the different presidencies, especially at Calcutta, during the last 15 years: the European artisans at the three presidencies build carriages, make furniture, plate, and all articles in leather, so good, and so much cheaper than similar articles from Eng-gland, that they supply many of the Europeans and native inhabitants of those presidencies and at the out stations, with articles which were formerly procured from Europe. The iron and steel work has not been carried to that perfection as to supply the place of those articles imported from Europe: the coach builde there, is still, I believe, obliged to have a those articles from England.

Have not the knowledge and practice of those handicrafts in India, considerable diminished the former import of the are articles from Europe?—I am not able speak so much from my own observation, as from what I have heard from the contains of the Company's ships, and farm them I have heard, that the import to India of such articles, has diminished on-siderably within the last few years; and this diminution is generally ascribed to the degree of perfection with which similar articles are now manufactured in India.

Having given an opinion of me ingenuity of the natives, how easily they learn any thing that they are shown, and of their sobriety, and their activity, do you or not think it probable, that those handicraft arts which they have been instruced in by British artificers, will, before a long time passes, be exercised by natives themselves; instead of being employed as journeymen, that they will set up in trade of themselves?—I think it reasonable to sup pose, that in the course of time, those who are now employed as journeymen will soon become masters.

JOHN WOOLMORE, esq. was called in, and examined as follows:

—Were you ever engaged in the coasting or country trade of India?—I was, from the beginning of 1782 to the latter end of 1787.

Were you ever employed in the marine service of the East India Company?—Yes; through every gradation of service from a boy to the command.

Since your retirement from that service, have you been concerned in East-India shipping?—Yes; I have been principal owner of seven East-Indiamen.

State in what line of trade you were employed in India?—I had a third of both the ship and cargo, in navigating from Bengal to the coast of Coromandel, during the war in 1781, 1782, and 1783; after that, in a trade from Bengal to the Malabar coast, to Bombay, from Bengal to the Malay coast, west of Sumatra to Batavia round by Borneo to China, from China back to Bengal, from Bengal through the straits of Malacca, to those parts of the Malay coast and China, ultimately back again to Bengal. I have been to the western part of the Archipego, as far as to the east end of Java, and ten crossed to the south part of Borneo, and from the south part of Borneo along the west coast, crossing again to the Malay peninsula, and then to China.

Were you some time in the Company's aried marine?—Never in the Bombay marine; in the Company's general service from Europe to India, and back; but not the Bombay marine; during the time I he spoken of, I was the commander of a private ship in India, belonging to myself and other gentlemen.

Is at what they call a country ship?—Yes.

During the time that you had the command of that country ship, together with those opportunities which you had while you commanded one of the regular ships in the Company's service, you visited and explored every part of India? — The greatest part of my visiting them was in the country service; voyages to India were more direct.

Did this afford you very extensive opportunities of judging of the general trade of India?—I conceive it did; of the trade o all those ports to which I navigated, certainly.

Did it afford you considerable opportunities of judging of the general tempered habits of the natives?—I think it did, as far as a seafaring man who trades upon hat coast is capable of judging.

During the time that you were thus employed in the marine service of the Company, or captain on your own account, was not your interest to explore almost every port, and embrace every opportunity of pushing European articles into India?— My object, as an owner of a country ship, and as captain of her, was entirely upon a system of trade for my own private benefit, and that of those with whom I was concerned; and as far as my abilities and industry were capable, I certainly took every possible means within my power of ascertaining every kind of article by which I could profit at the ports to which I navigated; and those which I did not navigate, that I could be well informed of by individuals in a similar trade to myself.

State to the Committee what articles of British manufacture you found it possible to vend for the purposes of native consumption?—I must observe to the Committee a circumstance attaching to myself, that I have no documents, and therefore it is completely from my recollection I speak; for all the documents I had of great consequence to myself, were completely lost by a change of house, which I did not know for a considerable time, and could never recover them: the principal articles in the East India coasting trade to the Eastern Islands, consisted of a small quantity of iron, a small quantity of steel, I may say a general small assortment of cutlery; I think I bad a little gold thread for the Malays to work into their cloths, and some few pieces of fancy cloths, merely for experiment; those I think coloured on both sides, blue and white, and blue and red, or both.

During that time, were the natives such as you are now referring to, fully and amply supplied with such European commodities as they might have occasion for?—They appeared to me not generally to want European commodities; iron, I did not sell the whole which I had, which was a very small quantity; the finer cutlery I gave away to the superior women, such as scissars and knives and things of that kind, not being generally saleable; the common Lascar knives and some brass wire, were at that time the only articles that were generally saleable upon the west coast of Borneo, or the coast of Malay, during the four years I navigated there; some of the iron I know I carried to China; with respect to the steel, I perfectly recollect the rajah of Succadana, on the western coast of Borneo, telling me, that the steel of Banjarmasseen was considerably better than that which came from Europe, and which I had purchased at Bengal; the general carpenter's utensils which are used on the coast of Malay, are principally of Chinese manufacture.

Did it appear to you that there was a capability of encreasing the export of British manufactures to those ports, beyond what it was in the power of the ordinary country ships to supply?—Certainly I think not, I do not at this moment, with all the information that I conceive I possess myself, as well as that which I have collected from cotemporaries that have been in that country, who were in the service with me, know any amount of cargo that I could take from this country going to the eastern islands, exclusive of money, that I could really produce any thing for on that coast.

If now you were about to freight a vessel to India, except money, you would not adventure any European commodities to those ports?—If I was going myself to that coast now, from this country, there is not 3,000l. worth of articles that I could take there, in my idea, to produce any return whatever, exclusive of money.

As far as your experience has gone, was every endeavour made to export every article of European manufacture to those ports?—My navigation was from India, every article of European produce that I could possibly conceive could produce me a profit upon those coasts, I certainly did take from that coast; I took many things upon trial, because I had an inclination so to do; and I had a third of the ship and cargo, the other two thirds were held by two gentlemen, whose constant observation to me was, to try by every means in my power to see what articles of trade could yield profit, whether from India or from Europe.

Did you make repeated voyages to those ports?—I was four years in that trade; I made four voyages from 1783 to 1787; I sailed from Bengal one year in April, I returned again in January; the next year I sailed about the same time again, and returned in December; the voyages were all similar as to their close; I was more or less employed according to the sale of my cargo on that coast.

Of what might your latter cargoes have consisted?—The last cargo consisted of saltpetre, a very large quantity of opium, say 800 chests, I think two lacks of rupees in specie, a small quantity of iron, a small quantity of steel, some brimstone for making powder, and 2,000l. worth (out of a cargo of 60, 70, or 80,000l.) of assorted piece goods, India manufactures entirely.—That was the leading feature of the cargo, except some trifling cutlery.

After your first voyage of experiment to those seas, did you find the vend for British manufactures progressively increase, or otherwise?—It rather decreased than otherwise in the articles I am speaking of, iron and steel and cutlery, because it did not produce any material profit.

Do you know whether other gentlemen made similar experiments in those seas?—Mr. Brewer, who is secretary of the Bengal government, was a great cotemporary of mine at the latter part of my time, in the trade of the Eastern Islands; I do not know what his cargoes were; but I believe very similar to my own; indeed all cargoes to the Eastern Islands are very similar; the great article is opium.

Did it appear to you that any increasing market was open in those seas for British manufactures, or that the adventures which took place, furnished them with more than enough for their purposes?—As far as respects myself, the adventures furnished them with more than was taken from me, I do not conceive that there was any opening for the general export of British manufactures, as far as cloths go; I never saw a Malay make use of a woollen; the few pieces of cloth that I took there, I gave away; they were not saleable; there were no purchasers for any profit, and I presented several to the superior natives with whom I traded; one I remember sending as a present to a Malay rajah, who ordered me off the coast because I did not come and trade with him.

Which of the voyages was it that you introduced these pieces of woollen cloth by way of experiment?—It was the last voyage that I took the woollen cloths.

Do you know whether this introduction induced any further demand for those articles?—I never heard of any, while I was in India.

Did you hear of any during your subsequent situation as commander of a Company's ship, or owner of ships?—I touched on the Malay coast in an Indian ship, through the Straits of Banca, and part of the island of Banca; and there I gave some few pieces of keyseymere that I had to two or three Malay girls I happened accidentally to meet with, whom I had known on another part of the coast before, but I did not sell any; I advanced money for tin, to a Malay trader that was collecting it.

Have you reason to think that those pieces of woollen, which you had thus introduced, and given gratuitously for that purpose, had induced any taste or demand for the thing?—I never heard of any since; I had not any idea at the time that it would, never having seen them worn; I merely gave them as presents to individuals.

You purchased block-tin at Banca?—I advanced money for tin, to a Malay trader that was collecting it, at the rate of 12 dollars per pecul, taking the tin to China, selling it, and being paid for my trouble.

Does not Banca abound with good tin?—I should think so; great plenty has been found there; most of the tin I have collected on the different coasts of Malay, has originally come from Banca.

Supposing yourself a regular merchant in India, and wanting an article of tin, would you send to Banca for it, or obtain it from this country?—Certainly, I should send to Banca.

Do you regard the tin of Banca, as being as good as that produced by the mines of this country?—I am not aware what the Chinese think of our tin, as compared with the Banca tin. I carried out, I believe, the first tin from Cornwall in an East India ship to China; at that time they preferred the Banca tin; at that time, 1788, it was more malleable than the Cornwall tin; it is certainly infinitely cheaper.

Looking to the original cost of the article, and to the respective charges of merchandize, is there a material difference in the price?—I do not exactly know the price of British tin at this moment; but I knew the price of the tin at Banca at that time very well, and I can calculate it at a moment; the Banca tin was from 40 to 51l. a ton; 51l. I considered a high price; I have bought tin with money at twelve dollars a pecul, at Rhio; I have exchanged goods for it at the ports of Rhio, and at the port of Borneo, at Salengur in the straits of Malacca, at Trengenna, and on the west coast of Malay: I received tin at those places, after selling my goods generally at from 14, never exceeding 16 dollars a pecul; I have sold my opium and my piece-goods and have taken in exchange a return of tin, pepper, and gold dust, at different prices, valuing tin at 15 and 16 dollars a pecul; I have purchased tin specifically with money at 12 dollars a pecul.

At those different places?—No, not at all those places; only at Rhio; at the island of Bintang, the pecul is 133 English pounds and a third, reckoning about 13 peculs to a ton.

About what would English tin have cost you at that time in India?—I think the price was, when I went to India next after that, from 70l. to 75l. a ton; hut never having bought any myself, I speak only from a recollection of the invoice.

What would each be per ton?—I make the Banca 68l. per ton, and the English from 70l. to 75l., that is taking the Banca at the price at which I exchanged my goods.

What would it be at the money price?—From 52l. to 53l. per ton.

If the Company had not been desirous of exporting British tin, or had no influence or contract so to do, could they not have obtained the article much cheaper at Banca?—I should suppose they could.

Taking money both ways by that difference you have stated?—Yes; I must observe, though, that the trade in tin at that time with the English was all a smuggling trade, all the tin that Banca produced was engaged by the rajah to the Dutch government, therefore, it was only what he cheated the Dutch of in his deliveries that we were enabled to get, and that through a people called Liots; men who have been on a pilgrimage to Mecca, and who carried on the trade with us, we not dealing directly with the principal; these people carried on the trade there with both parties; they were an intermediate party; the quantity consequently depended upon the exertions of the Dutch officers, in taking care to prevent smuggling.

Supposing the British government to become as favoured as the Dutch, have you any doubt of their being enabled to obtain as considerable a quantity of tin as they would require?—I have no doubt that they would obtain a very great quantity, but whether it would consist of so much as they required for their China trade, I cannot say; I could give you an idea of the quantity of tin smuggled in the way I have spoken of which British ships carried to China.

Is it a place that abounds with tin?—I really cannot tell the quantity that Banca produces; I have no means of exactly knowing.

The Company at present do not carry Banca tin to China?—They do not, I believe.

During the time that you were a commander of one of the Company's ships, taking the adventures of yourself and your officers as well as the general export, at that time, was it perfectly sufficient for the wants of India in respect of East India articles?—I was a commander specifically for China, of a ship from this country.

Did you in any other capacity go from this country to India?—As an officer I went several times to India.

Did it appear to you whether or not there was a full and ample supply of European articles, to the extent of what was required?—I do not think at that period there was.

What period do you refer to?—I refer to the years 1766, 1768, 1770, 1778, 1779, and 1780.

According to your knowledge and experience, has there been since that period a sufficient supply?—The only means that I have of knowing, since I quitted the India service, is by being the private agent of the commanders who had been in my employ; they had for the last five or six years decreased their usual investments, from 8,000l. to 2,000l., that would lead me to suppose that India was plentifully supplied.

These gentlemen have the advantage of exporting their adventures freight free, have they not?—Yes, they have.

Were you understood rightly in Supposing that the principal British manufactures that you took to the Eastern Islands in your more recent voyages consisted of coarse cutlery?—The only European articles of British manufactures was iron (if it was British iron,) steel and a very small quantity of fine cutlery; certainly the greater quantity was coarse cutlery, consisting mostly of Lascar knives, and a very small quantity of wire.

Did you find those equal to the demand?—Perfectly, at the ports that I was at.

Looking to the great difference in the price of labour between India and this country, do you think it likely we could manufacture those articles which the natives wear or otherwise consume, cheaper than they do themselves?—I really do not know; the people in the Eastern Islands prefer the cloths manufactured by themselves; I speak of the Malaya, they wear their own cloths in preference; they do wear our coarse cloths that are made in India, but in no great quantity; I can only speak as to the relative proportion of my own cargo; in a cargo of 70 or 80,000l. consisting of opium, money and piece-goods, the piece-goods were only to the amount of 2,000l.

And they were of India manufacture?—Entirely; consisting of coarse cloths of various kinds; one part I know were handkerchiefs that the Malays wear round their heads, coarse white cloths that the women wear as badjees, to support their necks; but their principal clothing is their own manufacture in their different islands; and it is of a very strong texture.

Such articles as they do wear, do you apprehend that we could manufacture them, and send them out as cheap as they obtain them from their own, or from Indian manufacture?—They could obtain them I believe as cheap, but they could not obtain them so good, as far as abstract price goes; but their preference is to their own cloths over our Indian cloths^* it is only the cheapness of our Indian cloths that induces them to take them at all; how far there is a difference in the price of the Indian cloths and our cloths, I cannot tell.

Supposing some degree of illicit trade to have been carried on by officers of the Company's ships, what effect do you apprehend that paying them stipends instead of allowing them to trade, would have upon the revenue?—That is a question I have never looked at: but as far as the idea strikes me at this moment, if a man is inclined to smuggle, I do not conceive an alteration in the mode of remunerating him would prevent it. I am looking to remuneration being in proportion to his advantages now; the only practical fact that I can bring to my recollection as to the operation it would have upon men's minds, is this: I think the Company were in the habit of paying their commanders and officers of their packets, instead of permitting them to trade; and I have some faint idea in my mind, that a captain of one of their packets was dismissed for trading against that regulation; it was not smuggling homeward, it was trading outward.

He traded against their regulation?—Yes, that they paid for not trading; a circumstance happened to myself the last voyage to the coast of Malay. My officers were paid very liberally, in lieu of having any trade whatever; I was extremely teased, and I did allow them some small adventures in articles that I called chandler's-shop articles, that I did not exactly trade in myself; yet they exceeded my allowance so greatly, that they were completely unsaleable. I had myself, never one iota of cargo distinct from the concern in which I was.

Notwithstanding you allowed your officers stipends, upon condition they should not trade, you found it impossible to prevent it?—Certainly I found it impossible to prevent their getting the things on board; but I completely prevented their getting them on shore, without my knowledge; nor could they be sold, nor were they sold on the coast of Malay, there not being a vent for the quantity they had; they were afterwards exchanged by myself at China to the chief officers of an Europe ship, for European articles to carry to Bengal; for, as I dismissed the men, I did not choose to punish them beyond it.

The officers in the Company's maritime service are universally more or less traders, are they not?—They are, I consider. Every youth I have brought up in the Company's service from a boy, I have endeavoured to instil into him that his object in the India service is principally trade; and I have never sent a youth under my patronage to sea in his first voyage, that I have not supplied him with from forty to fifty pounds of trifling European articles, and given him instructions how to conduct himself with them, and to change them at the intermediate port, so as to give him ideas of trade.

Do yon attribute any great proportion of the export trade to India to the zeal and interest with which commanders and officers have thus prosecuted their private adventures?—I think that the officers and commanders of East Indiamen carry out as many goods as they possibly conceive there is a market for.

Have you any personal interest whatever, whether the trade to India is open or not?—I do not think there is an individual in this country who has less interest in the opening of the trade than I have, as far as I can judge of my own feelings.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Have you any interest in the trade continuing as it is at present?—I have no interest in the Company beyond the stock that I possess in it as a private individual; I believe there is not an individual existing who has less interest in the trade one way or another; I am not a ship-owner or a merchant; I do not intend to be while the shipping is carried on as it is; if it were otherwise, I might be; but I cannot make common interest of my money, and there fore I live upon what I have got.

Having mentioned that your purchases of tin to the eastward were confined to such quantities as the rajah would cheat the Dutch government of in their contracts, it is presumed the Committee is to infer that the Dutch government made a monopoly of the tin belonging to the rajahs under their influence?—As much as ever they could.

Have you heard that this monopoly is continued by the English government?—No, I have not heard any thing upon the subject, good, bad, or indifferent.

Have you ever been at Palambang?—I have been at the mouth of Palambang river, but never up at Palambang itself.

Do you know whether the rajah of that place had a contract with; the Dutch government for the supply of tin?—I have understood he had, and a part of the tin I got at Rhio I have great reason to believe came from Palambang.

Have you heard that the rajah of Palambang wished to decline continuing this contract for tin with the English government?—Since we had possession of Bata-via I have not read one iota about it; it has not been the subject of conversation with me.

Is it not usual for commanders and officers of the Company's ships to sell their goods by the invoice in India?—When I was in the service, there were two modes of selling investments; the one was by invoice, the other by retail, and a third sometimes by public auction.

In framing the invoices upon which the investments are disposed of, is it usual to deduct the drawbacks, or to make allowance for discounts?—I have heard of salt water invoices (for that is the term) being made; I declare before this Committee, that I never in my life did such a thing.

Are not such practices usual?—I have heard of such things, but I have always understood and thought that they would carry with them their own punishment: because the persons who are in the habit of purchasing our investments in India are perfectly well acquainted with the general prices of such articles in this country: I have been shown in this country, when I was commander of an Indiaman, manufactures deteriorated here with the same appearance at a cheaper price, but I never took such a thing, because I never considered it my interest to do so.

Is it not usual for the commanders and officers to make purchases of goods for their investments here, at a credit of one year and sometimes two?—Yes, I believe it is; as to the individuals with whose concerns I have had the management, I have never known them to exceed eighteen months credit.

Does not that mode of purchase make a most, material difference in the price of the articles?—There are invariably different prices: when I purchase lead for money, or any article for money, there is a specific price upon it; if I purchase it at six months credit, there is a specific price; this was the case when I was in the habit of trade; a twelvemonth's credit was at a different price; I remember, for instance, lead that I purchased was 18d. per cwt. more from the credit of, I think, nine months or six months than the ready money price; the credit price always bore a greater proportion of interest than the real interest of the money.

No deduction is made from the invoice in such cases whether the goods are purchased at a credit of from 12to 18 months, is there?—I can only answer that question by what I have done myself, not knowing how others transact their business; when I sold by the invoice to a merchant, I put every thing before him as it stood, and he gave me 100 per cent. or 20, or 30, or 40; in one instance the charges were higher than the merchants thought they should have been; and they deducted so much, in consequence; they were higher perhaps from my inattention, or the exaction of the individuals with whom I dealt.

Have you ever made any deduction, or is it usual to make any, from the invoice, on the score of such increased price, in consequence of the long credit?—I can only answer the question as I have done personally, I really do not know what others have done; when I sold by invoice, I have bona fide put before the persons who purchased it, who were Williams and Taylor at Bengal, when I was there, exactly the invoices as they were sent to me.

Is it usual to make any deduction on the score of interest from the increased price, in consequence of the goods being purchased at a credit, instead of being paid for in ready money?—I can only answer that personally, not knowing what other persons have done; in the early stages, my mode of purchasing the goods, was to give the merchant half credit and half money; the latter part of my transactions as a captain, I had money for every purpose, and every individual thing was purchased by money, consequently, so far the investments that I sold at China do not apply to the question, because they were not sold by invoice; my investments as an officer, to which it applies personally, I declare most sacredly, the whole case appeared in my books: the bills of parcels from the individuals were put before them, with every iota of discount and charge of merchandize, and every expence that took place; I never conceived it possible that I could gain any thing by any other mode; because I considered from the early part of my life, that the most direct and honourable and lucrative mode was to be explicit upon all occasions.

Then is the Committee to understand, that the advance of 100 per cent. which you have mentioned upon your invoice, or whatever it might be, was calculated upon the rates charged by the persons who sold you the goods here?—I really do not recollect at this moment, whether it was 100 per cent. that I received, or 120, there being some deduction for the charge of merchandize; I have mentioned my agreement; for my investment was with the gentlemen at 120 per cent. or 100 per cent. I laid my invoice book before them, and whether it was upon the gross amount, or whether it was upon the abstract, taking the charges and discounts from it, or not, I cannot possibly at this moment say.

Do you know what discount is usually allowed for paying in ready money, or what is the difference in price between the ready money rate, and goods purchased at a credit of 12 or 18 months?—I really do not know; but at the time that I was a merchant, I found, as I mentioned before, eighteen-pence per cwt. difference in the purchase of lead, that I calculated to bear a proportion of 7½ per cent. to five; that if I took credit, I paid 7½ per cent. instead of five for that credit; that I paid, upon the average, 2½ per cent. depending upon the time of credit, and as the credit time increases, so the credit price, I conceive, would increase also: I have heard of discounts to the amount of 10 per cent. being allowed by ship-builders to ship-owners, but I never met with such a thing in my life; never in any instance did I get it; the individuals never felt themselves warranted in the prices that they have charged me, in allowing me to do it; I have certainly tried it, saying I have heard of such things, but I never had it allowed.

Do you, in speaking of salt-water invoices, allude to those invoices which have not the discount and drawback deducted from them, or to invoices made out at false prices?—The true character, I think, of a salt-water invoice is, that in which a greater price is charged for the goods than was actually paid for their goods.

Without its appearing upon the invoice?—Of course; I conceive it to be the copy of an invoice with additional prices put to it, made at sea.

Do you not know that it is the practice for the Company so to make out their invoices of exports, by adding a 10 per cent. to their invoices which does not appear?—I never heard of such a thing in all ray life, nor I never heard it surmised; it is the first instance in which I ever heard of such a thing.

Have you ever had occasion to settle with the honourable Company, either through their government abroad, or their directors at home, for short deliveries of goods?—I have certainly in both cases, but in a very small degree; indeed I never looked to the invoice, the officers in the department, to which the goods applied, gave me an account of them, with a charge of 30 per cent. (I think that is our agreement as carriers) upon that price, whatever price they charged me; I had so little idea of there being any addition beyond the real price they paid for them, that I never looked to it; I know, in China, that their bale goods have generally passed from the ships, and from myself, when the supracargoes have not been at Canton, to the Chinese merchants, without any inspection or look whatever: I have delivered cargoes personally in China of my own, without either weight or measure, merely as I had received them, upon the faith of having done so; the pieces of lead, of course, are numbered, but their bale goods I have delivered myself to the merchants respectively, according to their order, without any examination whatever, except as to appearance, whether they were damp or wet.

What is the alteration that took place in the management of the Company's shipping, which determined you to give up all connection with it?—The cheapness of the freight, and the mode in which they are principally supported; namely, I consider them owned chiefly by the patronage.

What do you mean by owned chiefly by the patronage?—The competition has brought freights so very low, that in respect to the individuals who have been brought up in the service, who are looking to commands, their friends are generally obliged to get a certain number of owners to enable themselves to be employed; as for instance, myself, if I had a youth that I wished to get the command of an India-man for, instead of giving him 5 or 6,000l. and allowing him to run about, I sacrifice that money in tendering a cheap ship to the Company, specifically for the patronage of that command.

Are you speaking of the extra ships now, or of ships generally?—Of the ships in the general regular service.

Is the Committee to understand that, in point of fact, the rate of freight paid by the Company has been cheaper than could be afforded by the ship owner, with a reasonable and proper view to his own profit?—Certainly; I consider the abstract point of freight of the Company, both in their extra ships and in their regular ships, under the circumstances in which they are sailed, as cheaper than any private individual can get freight, under similar circumstances.

Are you speaking here generally, as to the freight of a ship going to India, or the freight of a ship going under the particular circumstances attaching to all ships sailed under the Company?—If I comprehend the question, I mean to say, that I could not send a ship to sea under the same circumstances as the Company do, by myself, so cheaply as the Company get their freight.

What are those circumstances?—Goodness of ship, goodness of outfit, being properly commanded, officered, and manned.

Any thing as to the nature of the voyage or the delay, sailing at proper times, and so on?—I look exactly to the same circumstances applying in both cases; but if the questions have a reference to my examination four years ago, the circumstances are not exactly in point at this moment, as they were then; the Company at that time did not appear to me to give a facility to the movements of extra ships which they have done since.

Explain the difference of the circumstances to which you are now alluding between the present period and that?—The Company at that time seemed to divert the ships that they had in the extra employ, out of the implied condition under which I thought I built them; that is, instead of being sent direct, they were sent circuitously upon services that did not appear to me exactly consistent with the implied ideas that I had set out with them, that is, they were diverted on several occasions from that immediate carrying service, directly backwards and forwards, which, I think, they certainly have since remedies; but, at that time, I did not think any British ship owner, except under similar circumstances to myself, could have supplied ships cheaper than I supplied them; I was not looking to profit as a ship owner, I was looking not to the exceeding five per cent. for my money, I was looking to great pleasure in active industry, it affording as much delight to me to manage ships, and to have to do with them, as any fox-hunter can have in the chase; so far I think it impossible for an individual to have given the Company cheaper ships for extra ships, than I had given under those circumstances; I cannot give them now from circumstances being different; I cannot afford so much below the 5 per cent.; I cannot find a mode of making any interest whatever for my money, and I cannot exist without it.

Supposing the trade to India to have been opened to all merchants with a licence to trade upon their own account, between this country and our settlements in India, what would have been the terms in the rate of freight at which, as an individual merchant, you could have fitted out a ship, and the rate of freight at which you have supplied ships to the East India Company?—I do not see how it was possible for me, as a ship owner, to have fitted out any ships, strictly speaking, cheaper, under similar circumstances, than I did.

Is not their outfit superfluous; might not private merchants go with ships less expensive?—As a private merchant I might have carried those ships out in a certain degree cheaper than I could through the regulations of the Company: I do not think the rate of freight would have been cheaper than that at which I Supplied the ships, because I supplied them under an implied idea, that that system would have been carried into execution: when I am speaking of the expence attached to those ships arising out of the system, there were some which I did not expect would have been, and which I had been, and the persons with whom I was connected in bringing forward those ships, had been given to understand should not be so applied; I conceived that when an extra ship, such as those, was going directly to India, making the voyage in ten or twelve months, it was not necessary for that ship to go into a dock, to be pulled to pieces to be examined for defects which never could exist, if she was a good ship at first, and which I call unnecessary: but it did not apply in my case, because I tendered those ships under the implied idea that they would be superior West Indiamen, that they would not have been pulled to pieces, having in my head exactly the plan that they would have gone out, and made a certain number of voyages in a specific time, that they would have come home at that time; that they would not have been pulled to pieces, though I would have looked at them: in the room of which they were put into dock, their masts were taken out, and they were stripped, and an expence incurred of 2 or 3,000l. for what I did conceive no material benefit, under such circumstances that would not have applied to have reduced the freight, because I tendered the ship under that implied idea.

The rate of freight at which you supplied the Company with the extra shipping in which you were concerned, was not greater than it would have been, if as an individual merchant, you had been fitting out a ship good enough to go to India and back again?—The body of the ship, the principal part of the ship, would have been exactly the same, the masts and rigging would have been the same, the anchors and cables would have been as good; for I hold it not economical to save in those respects; I do not think she would have been a bit worse, it would only have been altered in respect of docking and repairing when I considered necessary.

Inform the Committee about what quantity of tin means were found to smuggle from Banca, while it lay under the Dutch coercion?—I should think the last year, that I had an opportunity of forming any judgment, nearly 500 tons.

Can you give any probable opinion of what might be the quantity which might be got from Banca, the Dutch coercion being removed?—Looking at what the Dutch ships brought to China, with what the country ships in the trade in which I was, and the Chinese junks, which collected it from the same source, I should think that there went to China altogether about 12, 13, or 1,400 tons of tin from the different sources; and I should think the greater quantity came from Palambang and Banca: there are places in which small quantities of tin on the Malay coast are got, which do not come from Banca, called Perhaing.

What quantity do you conceive might be now obtained from Banca?—I can form an opinion only from what the Chinese junks collected, what we collected, and what the Dutch government collected; which may be from 1,000 to 1,200 tons, or more.

Are you acquainted with the fact, whether copper may not be got from Japan cheaper than it can be imported from England?—I really do not know; I know nothing of the Japan trade; I have seen Japan copper, but I do not know any thing about its price.

Are you acquainted with the state of the manufactures by British artificers, through native labourers, at the different presidencies?—Generally, I am not; I know some little of them.

From your knowledge of the Chinese seas, do you or do you not think that cargoes of tea may be got through Chinese junks, if any considerable number of vessels from Great Britain go into those seas?—I think any quantity of teas might be got in any part of the Eastern Islands, provided the individual merchants from this country sent orders to agents that are in China; or through any agent that he may send orders to, he may get teas in Chinese junks down to any part of the Malay coast. Smuggled?—No, taken in as a regular cargo by the Chinese junks.

Might not establishments proper for preparing such cargoes be made in safe places in those seas, if the parties were so disposed?—I do not know what places are referred to, tea may be had through country ships from China.

If numerous vessels of 350 tons be admitted into those seas, and if disappointments should occur to the commanders of those vessels, do you or do you not think it possible that amongst the number of vessels that go there, some might endeavour to execute such an enterprize, as making establishments in some parts of those seas for the purpose of procuring tea, there being no controul of revenue establishment in those seas?—I hardly think they could form any such establishments there without the knowledge of the government in India or of the supracargoes in China.

What controul can be had over ships going to places where there is no controul?—I conceive our navy has the complete controul of those seas while we have Batavia, and that it is impossible for any esta- blishment to be formed in any of those islands without the knowledge of the different governments of India and China; but it is not necessary for the purpose of procuring tea that there should be any establishment, they may get it from country ships, or through Chinese junks, but previous orders must be conveyed to China for that purpose; it is not a trade generally carried on by the Chinese junks to those places.

May 5th.

THOMAS SYDENHAM, esq. was again called in, and further examined by the Committee to the following purport:

May it or not be naturally expected from the ingenuity of the natives of India, and their application to every thing by which they may make a profit, that they will arrive at such a knowledge and perfection in those handicrafts which are there practised, as to make all those articles on their own account, and by underselling the British artificers, whose mode of living is so much more expensive, and who having come to India to make their fortunes, will not sell those articles at so small a profit, drive them out of the country?—I think it would be at least a considerable period before the natives can set up manufactures or handicraft that will rival or become superior to those established and carried on by Europeans; but it is certainly probable, that in the course of time, the natives will arrive at such perfection in many of those trades, as not to render it worth the while of European workmen to remain in India; certainly not as a source of wealth to be carried back to England, but probably as sufficient to induce them to remain altogether in India, for the purpose of carrying on their trade in India; rather than in England.

Having informed the Committee that the workmen of the country are so apt, and so ingenious, and that there are some natives that have capital, will not those natives who look after profit, set up those trades which have been learnt by the other artificers, and probably execute that purpose in a short time, and materially diminish and ultimately put an end to the import of most of the articles from England, of which the materials are found there?—I believe that it will be a considerable period before any native workmen can be made equal to the European workmen; in many cases, it is found cheaper to employ an European workman, although his wages are considerably greater, than those of a native, partly on account of his possessing his trade better, and partly because the robustness of their frame enables them to go through a great deal more work than can be expected from any native; I also think, that in cases where an European and a native have sufficient capital to employ in any of those trades, that the European, from his superior science, ingenuity, and industry, will generally get the better of the native; there are some trades, particularly those in steel and in iron, which I believe, in consequence of the climate, can never in India reach that degree of perfection which they have reached in this country; such I know to be the opinion of the officers of artillery employed in the ordnance department; and the same as to the coach-makers at Madras and Calcutta.

You make that distinction, that those handicraft trades that require great strength of muscle, such as working in forges, may not be carried to that perfection in India by native workmen, but all others that do not require that robust frame, and that require only ingenuity, application and sobriety, which it is understood you have attributed to the natives superior to the British, may it not be expected, in consequence of that, that the importation of such articles may materially decrease?—Although I am willing to allow, that the natives of India are superior to the Europeans in sobriety, I do not recollect to have stated that they were superior in industry and ingenuity; it must also be recollected, that although the natives of India are ingenious in imitating any thing that is placed before them, they are generally incapable of making those improvements in the several branches of handicraft trade that appears to be always in a progressive state of improvement in England; some improvements may originate in India from the European trades people; and such as have taken place in the mother country, will be immediately followed by European artisans in India, of course, those improvements will gradually and slowly find their way among the natives; but as they will commence among the Europeans in India, this cause appears to me sufficient to secure to the European artisans in India, uniform superiority over the natives employed in similar trades.

Must not those natives who are employed under those British artisans learn all those improvements, whatever they may be, that are exercised by those British artisans, those now in use, and those that may hereafter be brought from Europe?—As long as the natives continue to be employed by the Europeans, they will certainly adopt the improvements that may be made in any of the trades; but the question which has been put to me, rather refers to natives setting up establishments of this kind with their own capital, and not employed as journeymen by European masters.

The question refers to those natives who have learned the improvements at present in use in India, and who will naturally learn whatever other improvements are introduced. Will not natives who have capital employ other natives who have learnt all those improvements, and will they not be able to make all those articles so much cheaper as to undersell the English?—I believe that in almost all cases, the native workmen would prefer being employed by European masters than by natives, partly because they will be more regularly paid, and partly because they would have the means of learning their trade sooner and better than under native masters.

Are you sufficiently acquainted with the materials produced in Hindostan, to know whether nearly all those produced in Europe may not be produced there, except British wool?—I have already stated, that I do not think any of the manufactures in steel and iron, with the exception of swords made in a particular part of India, can be brought to that degree of perfection which now exists in England; and I am not acquainted with many other articles of manufacture in which any rivalry could take place, except in such articles as carriages, and in the tannery line, that are consumed principally by the European inhabitants in India.

You have mentioned, that in the houses of the higher Mussulmen, many articles of European manufacture were to be seen; do you know whether those articles were wholly purchased by them, or whether they were presents on the part of the British?—I believe that the greater part of the articles of European manufacture to be seen in the houses of the higher classes of the Mussulmen at Hydrabad were purchased, and not presents.

The comelies being so cheap, and having been represented to be in many respects more useful, is it probable that British red cloth can come into general use among the mass of the natives?—I believe, as far as I am acquainted with the subject, that it would be difficult, if not impossible to introduce into India any species of woollens, either red cloth, or cloth of any other colour, which would be cheaper, and more useful than the comely.

Have not Europeans, in point of fact, penetrated clandestinely into the interior of India?—I believe that many individual Europeans have succeeded in penetrating clandestinely into different parts of the interior of India.

Is it not your opinion, that going one or two together they might penetrate, when, if they attempted to go in bodies there would be a moral certainty of their being stopped?—One European endeavouring to penetrate into the interior of the country, is liable to detection; and, of course, it would be almost impossible for any body of Europeans to travel through the country without immediate detection.

Is it not probable, that in case a desperate, or turbulent, or intriguing European might have a strong interest to get into the interior, he might succeed, notwithstanding any restrictions that might be devised in those parts of the country which are under British influence?—I certainly conceive, that any one European, whatever be his character, who is acquainted with the language of the country, and with the roads over which he is to travel, by disguising himself and travelling in the night, could at all times pass through the country, without incurring any considerable risk of detection, even through the Company's possessions.

Supposing the foreign settlements, that is, the settlements belonging to the Dutch, Danes, and French, were restored to those several nations, are they not at present surrounded by the British territories, and, of course, is it not nearly impossible for them to penetrate into the country, if the British police do their duty?—Those settlements are certainly surrounded by provinces under the British government; and although it Would be difficult for any foreigner, and particularly if he was unacquainted with the language of the country, to penetrate through the Company's provinces, I still think, a single European, acquainted with the language, and being able to avail himself of the disguises under which he may pass through the country, may escape detection.

Do you imagine or not, that Englishmen, considering Hindostan as their em- pire, and who may go there under parliamentary enactment, may not be more liable to commit irregularities and violences against the natives than any other foreigners, who will find so much difficulty in going into the interior, and being permitted to remain there?—I have always observed, that Englishmen are more apt than those of any other nation to commit violences in foreign countries; and this I believe to be the case in India, as in every other country foreign to England; it is also probable, that the foreigners, living, as it were, under sufferance in India, would be less liable to insult the natives than an Englishman, considering India as part of the British empire.

Do you consider that, practically speaking, if British subjects go to India under a parliamentary enactment, it may not be necessary, considering the odium that attends the magistrates, and even the supreme government of India, sending British subjects or Europeans out of the country, also to make a parliamentary enactment in order to strengthen the hands of government there, that any irregularities or violences committed by them against the natives should be, ipso facto, followed by a removal from the country, subject to that being remitted by the governor-general?—I think that, in every case, it would be absolutely necessary to invest the local government of India with the power of removing from India any British subjects who may be guilty of violence and improper conduct.

Has not the supreme government in India that power at this moment?—I believe it has.

You mentioned in the course of your examination yesterday, two instances, and the only two within your knowledge, of merchants, or rather shopkeepers, proceeding to Hydrabad in pursuance of a plan and object which the government in India seemed to have in view, for the extension of the sale of European manufactures; do you know whether the merchants who reside in India, chiefly at the presidencies, commonly resort to the interior for the purposes of their trade, when not sanctioned or encouraged by any particular object on the part of government?—I believe that it is the general custom of all houses of agency, and other traders, at the different presidencies in India, to employ native agents in conducting their commercial transactions in the interior of the country, the method usually pursued being to have a confidential native agent belonging to the house, who is generally entrusted with the selection of other native and subordinate agents in carrying on all their commercial transactions in the interior of the country.

Is it not found by experience, that this branch of the trade of India is generally carried on better and cheaper by native agency?—I believe that the mode above described has been universally found to be at once cheaper and more efficient than the employment of European agents for similar purposes.

Under these circumstances, do you conceive that any new traders repairing to India, under the proposed opening of the trade, could have any particular motives for going in any numbers into the interior, seeing that the interest of such traders and merchants almost constantly confine them to the presidencies and principal seaports?—I should conceive that all new traders going to India, who understood their own interests, and were willing to be instructed by the experience of those already established in trade in India, would prefer the employment of native agents in the interior, to European, and that therefore it would not be very probable that the establishment of any number of houses of business at the presidencies and the principal sea-ports, would lead to the employment of European agents in the interior of the country.

You are understood to have stated in a former part of your examination, that the Americans who repair to India for the purposes of trade, have not settled to your knowledge, either at the presidencies in India, or have penetrated into the interior, but have appeared merely as port traders; this being the ordinary course of carrying on the trade on the part of the Americans, may it not be expected from the intelligence of British merchants, that they would observe a similar course of proceeding?—In answering the question which has been alluded to, I stated to the Committee, that I knew nothing respecting the American merchants and traders from my own personal observation; but from never having seen any Americans settled at the presidencies, or having met them in the interior of the country, I believe they are known in India merely as port traders; and I should conceive, that as there would be no necessity for British merchants to deviate from a system which has hitherto been found adequate to all the purposes of commercial intercourse with the interior of India, they would probably follow the example of the Americans, and not employ European agents in the interior of the country.

Have the goodness to state to the Committee, from your knowledge of India generally, and particularly of the, climate, whether you think Europeans could travel into the interior of the country, without exceedingly great inconvenience and risk, unless they had a suitable conveyance, and accommodation for the purpose, such as a horse, palanquin, tent, &c.?—I think Europeans of the lower classes might travel through the interior of the country without much inconvenience, although they were not supplied with any of the accommodations above mentioned; but in some parts of the country, they would of course be exposed to considerable personal risk; on the other hand, persons in a higher sphere of life, such as for instance, the gentlemen whom I have generally seen employed in houses of agency, could not travel through the interior of the country without the means of conveyance, and tents to secure them against the effects of the climate.

Would not an European attempting to penetrate clandestinely into the country on foot, incur great risks to his health as well as to his person, from the nature of that climate, and the total want of accommodation upon the road?—I think it probable, that in a climate such as that of India, any European travelling through the country without adequate means of accommodation might expose his health, besides his person; but this would be more particularly the case in certain seasons of the year, and through certain parts of the country.

If such European carried money or goods with him to pay his expences on the road, would he not be liable to be robbed and even murdered by the Pindarries and other numerous plunderers in the Mahratta and Nizam's country?—In some parts of the Deccan, particularly in those provinces that are infested by the Pindarries, Naichs, Bheels and other freebooters, any European travelling with money and goods, without being escorted by a guard, would run considerable risk of being plundered of his goods, and perhaps of being murdered; but the danger would not be so great in those parts of the country that are cultivated, and where the governor exercises supreme authority.

Did you hear, during your residence in India, of various attempts made by European deserters to penetrate into the interior, and of their being generally, if not always intercepted?—While I was resident, at Hydrabad, there were not many cases of desertion occurred; but, almost in every instance, the deserters effected their escape to some distance from the capital, and established themselves in the service of some one or other of the jaghiredars in the Deccan; it however generally happened, that I obtained a knowledge of their route and place of concealment, and by an application through the Nizam to the jaghiredars, succeeded in recovering the deserters; in one or two instances it was not in my power to detect them, and in one case it became necessary to threaten a jaghiredar by the employment of a military force, before I could obtain his release.

The cases alluded to in the preceding answer, it is presumed, have reference to desertions from the force at Hydrabad; do you know of any similar attempts having been made by European deserters to petrate into the interior from either of the presidencies or military stations on the coast?—I really cannot recal to my recollection any cases of a similar description of which I could state the particulars to the Committee, excepting the case of a French officer who broke his parole and escaped from Pondicherry, and had established himself either in the Nizam's or the Mahratta country, before the government could prevail upon the prince to deliver him up to the resident at the court; I am not quite clear whether at Hydrabad or Poonah: another case occurred at Poonah, where two or three French officers had made their way to the city of Poonah, and remained concealed there for some time before the resident became acquainted with the fact of their being there; and it was not till after a vexatious negociation of two or three weeks, that the Peishwah or his minister could be prevailed upon to deliver them up; it has also occurred to my predecessor at Hydrabad and to myself, to find Europeans in different parts of the Deccan who had deserted many years before, and who either were detected or delivered themselves up, in the hope of their crime being pardoned.

Were those Europeans delivered up to the British government in pursuance of the treaty now in force, which prohibits file employment of Europeans in the ser vices of the Nizam and the Peishwah, without the permission of the British government?—The French officer, alluded to in the first case, was delivered up before the conclusion of the treaty containing that stipulation; the French officers at Poonah were delivered up in consequence of the resident's insisting on the Peishwah's fulfilment of that particular stipulation in his last treaty; in the other instances, it was not necessary to appeal to the Nizam's government, as the deserters alluded to were either detected by parties of the Company's troops, or voluntarily delivered themselves up.

Did you hear, during your residence in India, of the escapes of French prisoners from Bombay, and of their having attempted unsuccessfully to penetrate into the Mahratta country?—The only case of that description of which I heard, was one that took place during the peace of Amiens; and though I have no distinct recollection of the circumstances, I believe that some French officers or soldiers did attempt to penetrate from the sea coast into the interior of the Mahratta country, and were intercepted, as far as my recollection serves me, on the frontier between the Concan and the Ballawit Mahratta territory.

Are you acquainted with an attempt made during the course of this war by the French, to land adventurers on the coast of the Concan from a small vessel called the Passe par Tout, and of those adventurers having been given up on the strong remonstrances of the late resident at Poonah, and surrendered to the British government agreeably to treaty?—I confess I do not recollect the circumstances which are alluded to in the question that is put.

Could any Europeans, in the present state and circumstances of the Deccan, perform any active duties in the service of a jaghiredar, without a knowledge of a vigilant resident at the court of the Nizam?—I think that it would be very possible for one or more Europeans to be employed by a jaghiredar, in the training and disciplining of his troops for some time, without the intelligence of such a circumstance reaching a resident, however vigilant, particularly if the government of the Nizam were disposed to encourage their concealment.

Considering that the Europeans left from M. Raymond's corps in the Nizam's service, as referred to in a former part of your examination, may have formed con- nections more or less intimate during their residence in that country, do not you consider their case to be very different from an attempt now made on the part of strangers to penetrate into the interior in search of employment?—I certainly consider the cases to be very different; I only mention the fact alluded to in the question, to show the possibility of Europeans living in the Nizam's dominions, and being employed in his service, without the knowledge of the resident at his highness's court.

Did those Europeans alluded to do any particular mischief to the public interest, in the service in which they were employed, previous to detection by you?—I cannot say that they did any particular mischief of such a nature as to attract my attention; but they naturally persevered in retaining the forms and usages of the French service, in employing the French words of command, and probably in keeping up amongst the natives under their command, their attachment to that nation, by the officers of which they had been raised and commanded; this was proved by the resolute determination, on the part of the men, to resist the introduction of the English system of exercise and words of command; and if, before the reform which afterwards took place, it had been possible to have excited any considerable disturbance in the country, or that the country had been invaded by any other prince, or that hopes had been held out of any co-operation from the French power, I conceive that in either of those cases, considerable mischief might have resulted from the continuance in the Nizam's service of the foreigners whom I have mentioned; there were many persons amongst those officers, some of good character, and others perfectly inoffensive; but I had them all removed, both from the Nizam's service and the territories, upon a general principle.—Previously to the treaty of offensive and defensive alliance between the Nizam and the Company in the year 1798, these corps were almost entirely officered by French and other foreign officers; I believe there were one or two Englishmen amongst those officers.

Did those officers find their way into the Nizam's service previously to the treaty by which his highness is restricted from the employment of European officers, and also previously to the present regulations in force in India, which prevent Europeans from travelling through the country without a regular passport?—I believe that the greater number of those officers had been with the corps alluded to, during the period that M. Raymond and M. Feron commanded; and I do not recollect more than two or three instances where the officers had joined, since the destruction of Raymond's corps, and those instances, if I recollect right, were half-cast men from Pondicherry.

Through what channels do you suppose those foreigners found their way to India, and into the service of the Nizam?—I believe that most of them came from Pondicherry, direct to Hydrabad, on being sent for by M. Raymond, or going to Hydra-bad in search of employment; some of them came from the employment of Scindiah, Holkar, and other Mahratta chieftains.

Had it come to your knowledge whether any serious disturbances ever occurred in the interior of the country, from the introduction of those foreign Europeans into the service of the Nizam?—I never heard of any serious disturbances having occurred within the territories of the Nizam, from the introduction or employment of the officers in question; the fact was, that M. Raymond is a man of considerable talents, who held a very high command, was supported in his authority by the Nizam's government, had large estates conferred upon him for the support of the troops under his command, and both over the military force and the districts belonging to him, exercised an absolute and almost independent power.

If the settlements and factories in India, heretofore held by the French, Dutch, and Danes, should again be restored to those powers, would the same facilities for introducing foreign Europeans from those settlements into the interior of India, again present themselves?—If the settlements belonging to the French, Dutch, and Danes, were restored to those powers, I do not conceive that the same facilities would take place in the introduction of foreigners from those settlements into the interior of the country, partly because the authority of the Company's government over their own possessions has been considerably increased, and because in consequence of the late treaties of alliance between the Company and the native states, the residents at the courts of the native princes are enabled to exercise much more vigilant and efficient controul than they were formerly enabled to do.

If British subjects were to find their way into the country, do you think that there is any greater reason to apprehend disorderly conduct from them than from any other Europeans or Americans?—I do not believe that the Americans have found their way into the interior of the country; with respect to other foreigners, they have generally penetrated into the interior of the country for the purpose of being employed in the service of some one or other of the native princes of India, and as they are there under a strict military discipline, no disturbance is likely to take place; but the case would be different, if foreign or British adventurers were to range over the country without any particular object, or being employed in any regular corps in the service of any of the native princes.

Did the British officers of the subsidiary forces at Hydrabad or Jaulna, conduct themselves to your knowledge, in an unruly or unbecoming manner towards the natives of those countries?—I do not recollect any instances of the British officers belonging to the subsidiary force, either at Hydrabad or Jaulna, conducting themselves in a violent or unruly manner towards the natives of the country; of course, some slight disputes and quarrels have taken place during the course of my residence at Hydrabad, which are of too trifling a nature to intrude upon the notice of the Committee.

When excesses of the description alluded to do occur, are they not commonly the acts of hot-headed or violent young men?—Almost always; I have scarcely known any officer who has resided a few years in India, and become even slightly acquainted with the language and habits of the natives, who has shown any disposition to conduct himself in a violent or unbecoming manner towards the natives.

Do you think that a sober calculating merchant, is as likely to commit excesses of this description as a person who has not the same motives of private interest and calmer habits to restrain him?—I do not conceive that a sober calculating merchant engaged in business, whose interest it must evidently be to conciliate the natives, would be likely to violate or infringe their religious habits and prejudices; but it must be considered that the officers in the army, although perhaps more inclined to excesses than merchants, are frequently restrained from them by the discipline in which they are kept, and by the fear of penalties and punishments to which they would be subject for the slightest misconduct.

In your extensive intercourse with the natives of India, has it come to your knowledge that such natives make a wide distinction in their own minds, between the mercantile part of the European community in India, and the young and wilder servants of the King and Company who occasionally get among them; and that such natives can as correctly as any people on earth, discern the particular motives or principles of conduct by which those two distinct classes of Europeans are actuated in their general demeanour?—I think that, in general, the natives of India, especially the Mussulmen, have naturally a higher respect for military men than for persons employed in trade, not from a comparison between the individual characters of officers and traders, but because in India, every gentleman is supposed to be a soldier; at the same time, I believe that there are no description of persons who are more acute in distinguishing the motives and conduct of individuals, than the generality of the natives of India.

Are you of opinion that the conduct of the higher classes of Europeans in India, including the mercantile part, is, generally speaking, marked by a peculiar degree of forbearance, consideration, and respect to the manners and habits of the natives; and do you, or do you not think that any casual act of violence by a wild young man, would detract from their general good opinion of the British, which this conduct has established, or affect in their estimation, any but the persons committing the violence, or shake their confidence in the higher and more soberly disposed part of our countrymen?—From my experience, I believe, that the higher classes of Europeans in India, and indeed, all classes who have resided some time in that country, are distinguished by great mild-ness, forbearance, and liberality towards the natives of India; I do not believe that one or two casual instances of excess, on the part of the young men, would shake the confidence which is placed, by the generality of the inhabitants, in the character and disposition of the higher classes of European inhabitants: at the same time a repetition of such instances, if not properly checked and punished, might gradually lessen the respect, esteem, and attachment, which the natives bear towards the body of Europeans residing in India, In a former part of your examination you were understood to have stated, that some of the richer and higher classes of Mussulmen at Hydrabad did use European commodities, both in their dress and the furniture of their houses; have you reason to suppose that other Mussulmen would not follow the example of those their superiors, if they had the means of doing so?—Some of the higher and wealthier Mussulmen at the court of Hydrabad, do certainly use some articles of European manufacture in their dress and in the furniture of their houses, but this has occurred principally amongst the ministers of the Nizam, who from their frequent intercourse with the resident, are perhaps disposed, chiefly from motives of compliment, to fit up their houses more in the European stile than other persons who have not the same motives; but during the period of my residence at Hydrabad, I did not perceive that the fashion of fitting up houses in the European stile at all increased, and I do not conceive that it would extend even in the capital, amongst those Mussulmen who are not in continual communication with the resident at the court; I conceive, that one of the principal causes why a few of the subordinate ministers, at Hydrabad, followed some of our customs was, in consequence of the example given to them by Meer Ali, a Persian by birth, a man very much above the common prejudices of his countrymen, who had adopted quite an European mode of thinking, and despised the habits and customs of the Mussulmen in India.

Can you recollect what the European articles were that were so used by those higher Mussulmen?—They consisted chiefly of services of glass ware, china lustres, chintz coverings for sofas, chintz curtains, and a few articles of plate, according to European fashion.

Are not iron, copper, steel and other metals, consumed by natives of all casts in India, in a great variety of articles of common use and necessity?—They are.

Would not those articles be used in greater quantities, if greater wealth was more generally diffused among the natives of that country?—It appeared to me that the natives of India were not in want of any of those articles; they had no difficulty in supplying themselves with whatever they might require for domestic or other purposes, and therefore, I do not see how the increase of their wealth would lead to the employment of more articles of a similar description, conceiving that those articles are not so much articles of luxury, on which wealth is generally expended, as articles of common and immediate use.

Would not a considerable improvement in the circumstances and wealth of the inhabitants of India, occasion more and better buildings, for example, to be erected, and a greater degree of internal commerce and manufacture, into which those articles must necessarily enter?—I conceive that the improvement of the circumstances of the inhabitants of India, would probably lead to the building of larger and more commodious houses than they occupy at present, not of a different fashion, but larger and more extensive, according to their own mode of building; and the same cause would, no doubt, lead to more activity of internal commerce than extends at present; I do not state this as applied merely to India, but as a natural result of the same cause in all parts of the world.

Did you, during your residence in India, ever dress your own personal servants in woollen dresses?—While I was resident at Hydrabad, my servants, during the cold weather, were dressed in a livery of scarlet cloth, and in the hot weather in cotton cloth or muslin.

Do the natives of India work in steel, or at all events, but very indifferently?—All their manufactures in steel which I have seen appeared to me to be very imperfect, excepting the swords, which are made in the Deccan, and in the north part of India, and which, I believe, in temper and other property, are equal to the best swords made in any part of the world.—The only articles of steel in use in India besides swords, which occur to me at present, are knives and scissars, which are generally imported from England, being very superior to those manufactured in India.

Is not the tochin conna of the Nizam, mentioned by you in a former part of your examination, considered and exhibited as one of the curiosities of his highness's palace?—Those magazines which, for want of another expression, I called the tochin conna, are certainly never exhibited to strangers; it was only by a particular request that I was permitted by the Nizam to see them; the room which is more particularly the tochin conna, or jewel office, as containing such jewels and valuable property in use by the prince, is cer- tainly never exhibited by the Nizam, probably from the fear of exciting the cupidity of those who go to see it.

May not strangers visiting the palace from curiosity, and of known respectability, on an application being preferred to the Nizam, or the British resident, be allowed to see this tochin conna?—I do not recollect any instance having occurred; I never thought of making an application of that nature; and although the Nizam might be disposed to grant a particular request on the part of the resident, I rather believe that his highness would consider that an intrusive and unpleasant request.

Exclusive of the European articles in this tochin conna, has not the Nizam also similarly in store, great quantities of the finer manufactures of other foreign countries, such as shawls, silks, kincobs, jewellery, &c.?—I do not think that the present Nizam retains in his storehouses more commodities of the descriptions alluded to in the question than are necessary for the general consumption of himself and his large family; I know that it is frequently his highness's custom to dispose of such jewels and presents, shawls, kincobs, and other articles of that description as are presented from time to time by the resident or principal natives of that court; this may however be owing to the personal character of the present Nizam, whose ruling passion is avarice.

Had not Tippoo a great collection of these articles as well European as Asiatic, at Seringapatam?—Tippoo had certainly a large collection of articles of Indian manufacture and produce, as well as European, in the different storerooms belonging to the palace.

Are not these tochin connas considered as containing a part of the wealth of the palace?—They certainly contain part of the wealth of the palace; but I believe the jewels not in common use, those of greater variety and price, bullion and specie, are generally kept concealed within the precincts of the harams, or in some safe part of the palace, which is known merely to the prince, and one or two confidential servants.

Are not those European articles, though hoarded in a tochin conna, considered sources of considerable gratification to the persons receiving them?—I believe that when such presents are made to a native prince, especially such as are curious from their mechanism or fashion, that they afford considerable gratification to the per- son to whom they are presented; the degree of value placed upon them, of course, will be regulated by the disposition of the prince; in the case of the Nizam, it did not appear to me that the accumulation of European articles in his tochin conna afforded him any gratification whatsoever, either as a source of wealth or amusement.

Did not the Nizam make presents to his favourites at court from among the stores of the tochin conna?—I have already stated, that the Nizam is of a most parsimonious disposition; he sometimes made a few trifling presents to his favourites and confidential servants; but in general, his presents were confined to those which are usually conferred on persons of distinction in receiving the investiture of lands, being called to new offices, and other occasions, where even the amount and nature of the present is regulated by long established usage.

Are not the Mussulman prone, from natural disposition, to every species of luxury and personal gratification?—The Mussulmen in general are certainly prone to every species of luxury and personal gratification.

Are you of opinion, that the opening of the trade with India must necessarily be attended with an unlicensed and unrestricted intercourse of Europeans in that country?—I conceive, that a freedom of trade, calculated to produce every advantage that can be derived from a free trade, could take place between this country and India without incurring the necessity of permitting Europeans to traverse the interior of India, or allowing them to remain at the presidencies, unrestricted by the government.

In what manner do you think the interest of the private European merchants and agents already established at the different presidencies in India would be affected by the proposed opening of the trade with this country, and the admission of an increased number of European traders at those settlements?—I should conceive, that the establishment, at the different presidencies, of a number of new houses of business, and of persons employed in trade, would be attended with injurious consequences to the houses that are now there established; as the houses that are now at the different presidencies absorb the whole of that business, which would be divided amongst a greater number, if other houses were to be established at those presidencies.

Would not the native merchants and agents, and the natives generally, be likely to be principally benefited by the opening of the trade?—I should conceive, that whatever advantage is to be derived at the different presidencies by traders, from the opening of the trade, would be derived by the native agents, rather than by the European houses of business, already established at those presidencies.

Do not you think that improvements might be made in the various articles of European manufacture sent to India, so as to render them better adapted to the taste of the natives, than those now sent out, which are more particularly intended for the use of Europeans?—I certainly think some improvements might take place, both in the fabric and selection of articles for the Indian market, which would render them more suitable to the taste and uses of the natives of India than those which are now generally exported to that country.

Would there not, in your opinion, be probably a greater sale among the natives than at present of European manufacture, if they could be supplied considerably cheaper, so as to come within the means of the poorer class of the natives of India, even though they might be inferior in quality to those sent out for the use of Europeans?—I conceive, that any considerable reduction in the price of European goods sent out to India, would naturally produce a greater degree of consumption of those articles; but I think that this increase would not be very considerable, and that it would be limited until the bulk of the community in India had adopted habits and customs more similar to the Europeans than they now possess.

What, in your opinion, is the present state and circumstances of the natives of India; is it prosperous, or otherwise?—In answering this question, it is necessary for me to make a distinction between the inhabitants living under the Company's government, and those natives living under the Mahratta and Nizam's governments, with whose situation I am more particularly acquainted. With regard to the Company's government, I believe that the following observation is strictly true, that the worst form of the Company's government is considerably better than the best form of any Asiatic government which has been established in India. The situation of the inhabitants under the Company's government, always appeared to me to be extremely prosperous, when compared with that of natives in similar situations, under any of the native governments; and I am disposed to believe, that even when compared with the situation of similar classes in any part of Europe, their situation may still be considered prosperous; I would even venture to extend this comparison to England itself, as far as my observation reaches.

Do you consider the bulk of the people in India to be poor, or otherwise?—I certainly do not consider the great mass of the inhabitants of India, particularly those under the Company's government, as being in a state of poverty; because the price of their labour being fully sufficient to purchase for themselves and their families, is sufficient to support them.

Is not the low price of labour a proof of the poverty of the country?—I do not conceive the low price of labour can be any proof of the poverty of the country; I take the relation between the price of labour and the price of food to be the standard by which their poverty is to be measured.

To what part of India do you particularly allude, when you speak of the great prosperity of the bulk of the subjects of the Company's government?—I allude, generally, to those parts of the Company's dominions which I have visited, extending from Calcutta along the northern circars to the Carnatic, the Carnatic itself, and the countries ceded by the Nizam to the Company.

Do you conceive that the territories you now allude to, are better cultivated, or the inhabitants in a state of greater wealth, generally speaking, than the province of Berar?—Generally speaking, I should consider that part of the country to which I allude, to be in a higher state of cultivation than the province of Berar, though there are certainly some parts of the province of Berar, which are so favoured by climate, and by the soil, as to be as highly cultivated as perhaps any part of the world, producing rice, wheat, barley, cotton, opium, sugar and silk.

Do you think that the inhabitants of Mysore are not to the full as well off in point of circumstances, and the country generally as well cultivated, as any of the districts subject to the Madras government?—From all that I have heard of the state of Mysore, I believe that that part of India is as well cultivated as any part under the immediate dominion of the Company.

When you have stated that you do not consider the Hindoos poor, because they have the means of purchasing the necessaries of life, do you or not consider them poor as to their power of purchasing British commodities and manufactures?—I believe that it seldom falls to the lot of the generality of the inhabitants of any country to be able to afford any surplus for the purchase of foreign goods, especially such as minister more to their luxury and enjoyments than to their comfort and convenience; in this respect the inhabitants of India are so far poor, that they commonly have not, after providing for their families, any money to expend in goods of European produce and manufacture.

From any remarks on Bombay, when you were there, do you think that the manners and customs of Bombay are at all similar to those in the interior of the country?—The population of Bombay is perhaps formed of a more extensive commixture of different nations than any part of India, consisting of Hindoos, Parsees, Mussulmen, Chinese, Arabs, Armenians, Persians, and almost every class of natives of the peninsula of India, who are engaged in trade.

Is there any similarity, or can any argument be drawn from the practices and usages of Bombay, to what obtain in the interior of India?—I should certainly conceive that the population of Bombay, formed as it is of so many different nations, and placed in its insular situation, cannot be assumed as a criterion of judging of any part of the population of Hindostan.

Was not the prosperity of the inhabitants of the Barramahl considerably increased, after these districts were ceded to the Company, and placed under the management of colonel Read?—I believe that it would be difficult to find in history a more decided proof of the good effects of a just and moderate government than that which was exhibited in the Barramahl, while it was under the superintendence of colonel Read: I believe that in the course of five years, the revenues of these districts were more than doubled, while the rents were diminished almost in an equal proportion.

Was not the prosperity of the inhabitants of the countries ceded by the Nizam to the Company, and placed under the management of colonel Thomas Munro, also considerably increased?—I should be disposed to apply nearly the same observation to those countries that were ceded by the Nizam to the Company, and placed under the superintendence of colonel Munro, as I have already made respecting the Barramahl; when colonel Munro received the possession of these districts, the country was in a state of anarchy and confusion, the revenue by no means productive, the inhabitants oppressed by every species of tyranny and extortion, and the country infested by bands of freebooters and robbers, which no exertion on the part of the officers of the native government could put down; in the course of four or five years, the revenues were nearly doubled, and have since continued to improve; peace and order has been completely established throughout every part of those districts, and instead of an oppressive government, they are subject to the operation of just and mild laws.

ROBERT MORRIS, esq. was called in, and examined as follows:

— Have you frequently made voyages to India and China, on board the regular ships of the East India Company?—I have; I was six voyages as surgeon, and four as purser, of the regular ships. The last was between 8 and 9 years ago. I have visited almost all parts of India; particularly the three presidencies, Bengal, Madras, and Bombay: principally Bengal, and Madras and China.

In assorting your investment, can you state what proportion you usually provided of such articles as you conceived to be for the consumption of the natives of India?—A very small proportion; I should suppose not one tenth.

Of what description were those articles which you provided under the conception that they would be used by the natives?—Principally glass ware, and a small quantity of hard ware; a little furniture for their houses, but very little of that, for such natives as are connected with the Europeans in general.

Can you state from what causes the narrowness of the native demand for European manufactures arises?—The natives in general do not use European articles to any extent.

Can you state whether, during your experience in this private trade, there was a growing demand on the part of the natives for European manufactures?—I have not experienced any growing demand, or very trifling, since I have known the service, which is 30 years.

In your judgment, have the marine officers of the Company used every exertion to promote, as far as in them lay, the consumption of European manufactures, by the natives of India?—I conceive they have, as it was their interest to do so.

Since your retirement from the marine service of the Company, have you had any experience in the private export trade to India?—I have been almost constantly engaged in the private exports since that time.

In what manner?—In sending out goods as an agent to houses in India, receiving orders from India to send out goods there; and I have sent out very considerable investments on my own account as a merchant.

Did those investments consist in any great degree of articles for the native consumption of India?—They were generally the same as those carried out by the commanders and officers of the ships.

During your whole commercial experience in the departments you have described, have you found the encouragement for the export of British manufactures to India increase?—I have not.

Is it known to you, that between six and seven years ago the Company granted increased facilities for the exportation of British manufactures to India?—I believe they granted an additional quantity of tonnage at that time.—Since that time many of the restrictions or difficulties which we laboured under have been removed; we have now greater facility than we had at that time.—I have found no difficulties of any consequence of late in the exportation of European manufactures to India.

Has the exportation of European manufactures increased since the acquisition of those facilities?—I do not think it has, in any considerable degree.

Has the state of the market in India for European manufactures improved, to your knowledge?—To my knowledge, the state of the markets in India for European commodities is very bad indeed.

Do you mean that answer to extend up to the present time?—Up to the last accounts from Bengal, and for several years past.

Were there any reasonable hope of profitably extending the export trade in manufactures from this country to India, would you, and other traders in that department, increase the quantity of capital which you employ in the prosecution of it?—I conceive they would; I would myself.

In your opinion, is there, upon the whole, as great a quantity of British capital now employed in the exportation of European manufactures to India, as can possibly be employed in that way with a prospect of profit?—I conceive, at present, there is a great deal too much capital employed in that way.

If the facilities of export were still further increased, is it your opinion that the trade would answer?—I do not think it would answer.

On the supposition that the British trader were freely allowed to freight his own ship with European manufactures, is it your opinion that such a trader would find a sale for his cargo among the natives of India?—I conceive, at present, there are more goods in India than can be disposed of.

On the supposition that a free trade were established in India, and that private ships were to be freighted with cargoes of cutlery, hardware, and other articles, which the natives are known to use in a limited degree, is it your opinion that such export trade would prove profitable to the persons employed in it?—I conceive, if they were sent out in any large quantities it would he almost a total loss.

Is it your opinion that any saving which the private trader might effect, either by the cheapness of freight, or by the convenience of sailing at his own time, or in any other manner, by the alleged efficiency of free adventure, would compensate for the loss which he might be expected to sustain on his sales in India?—I should conceive, if the trade were thrown open to every individual, as much as he pleased, the quantity of goods sent out would be so great they could not find a sale.

In the event of an open trade, do you conceive that any expectations which the British manufacturers may entertain of an increased market for their produce in India would be realized, or the reverse?—I think it would be the reverse, most undoubtedly.

Would the private trader, exporting goods to India in his own vessel, trade on the whole as cheaply as the private trader employing, under the present system, a given amount of the privileged tonnage allowed by the Company?—I do not conceive he would save more in going in a private vessel than under the present system; I allude to the captains and officers who save their freight; I conceive, that the difference of insurance and other expences upon a private vessel, would counterbalance any advantage they might receive.

Supposing a merchant wishing to send goods to India should not freight a whole ship with those goods, but should wait till the ship was fully freighted by other traders joining with him, would he in that case gain any advantage by sailing at his own time?—I conceive he would be under the same uncertainty as under the present system of the Company; he must wait till his ship was loaded, unless he could load the ship entirely himself; he would not send her with a half cargo.

On the whole is it your opinion, that in the event of a free trade, the export trade to India could be conducted with greater cheapness than at present?—I conceive very little, particularly during war.

On the supposition that the export trade could, under the circumstances described, be conducted with somewhat greater cheapness, is it your opinion that there would be a correspondent extension of the sale of European commodities in the native markets of India?—I do not conceive there would be any extension, further than what there is at present.

Can you state, whether the practice of making what are called salt water invoices is usual among the officers of the Company's marine service?—I should conceive not among any honest men, if I understand what is meant by it, a false invoice; I have never known any man of respectability attempt such a thing.

Explain what you understand by the term, a salt water invoice?—I conceive a false charge, an increased charge laid upon the goods, which I think no honest man would attempt.

In point of fact, is it usual with the Company's officers to make out false invoices?—Not with any men of respectability; nor do I conceive it would have any avail, because every merchant of any standing in India, knows the price of goods as well as we do in London.

Would it be agreeable or contrary to the interest of those officers to adopt such fraudulent practices?—In some cases it might be to their advantage; in many it would not; because many goods are bought at so much a piece when they land there, or by the weight, for instance, dead weight; iron, lead, or such articles, are bought at so much a cwt. or so much a maund, without reference to the original charge.

Do the officers of the ships of the Company usually purchase the articles which constitute their investments at long credits?—Many of them do; others do not; those who have money pay for them.

When the investment is laid in at a long credit, is that fact known to the buyers in India?—I believe the invoices are generally made out nearly at one rate, supposing twelve months credit; those who have money receive a discount for their money.

Are you acquainted with the commerce of the Eastern or Malay Archipelago?—. No, I am not particularly.

Have not you visited those islands?—I have been at some of them; I have gone through the Straits of Malacca to China; but I have not been among the Eastern Islands.

Have you visited any of the islands off the eastern coast of Africa?—Madagascar and Johanna, in particular.

Have you resided in any of those islands?—No, I never resided; I have been there on a voyage out to India, stopping for provisions.

Have you spent weeks there at any time?—Yes, one or two weeks; I think I was once 14 days at Madagascar.

Are you able to state, whether any of those islands are likely to furnish a demand for European manufactures?—None of them, in any degree.

Are the people in a state of barbarism or civilization?—Almost in a state of nudity, with only a piece of cloth about them; both in Madagascar and Johanna they use a small quantity of cutlery and fire-arms; and probably a little coarse broad-cloth.

Is not the government of Johanna the most civilized of the governments established in any of those islands?—It is.

Is the island of Johanna likely to furnish a demand for European articles?—I should conceive it is not.

May 6th.

ROBERT MORRIS, esq. was again called in, and further examined by the Committee:

Are the Eastern Islands amply supplied with such British manufactures as they require, and at as cheap rates as could be expected under the circumstances of an open trade?—I conceive they are at present.

Would or would not a single cargo of 350 or 400 tons of British manufactures, be as much or more than sufficient for all their demands?—I do not conceive they would consume a single cargo of from 300 to 400 tons; it would not find purchasers, except at Java.

If every subject of the United Kingdom had access to the whole of the Eastern Archipelago, could the successful export of British manufactures be increased to those ports?—I do not conceive it would to any material degree.

If the trade were thus thrown open to the Eastern seas, do you entertain any doubt that every commander of a ship would be able to supply himself with tea, if such were the object of his speculation, without going to Canton?—I think a very large quantity of tea might be purchased in that way, which would be brought down by the Chinese junks, and by the country ships returning to Bombay.

Do you think that every commander, if such were his desire, might have the means of supplying himself with any quantity of tea in that way?—That is so indefinite a question, a number of ships going out; I think three or four ships; several ships might be loaded in that way.

What sized ships?—From 3 to 400 tons or more; I should think 5 or 6 ships of 400 tons each, or almost any number, could procure the article; it is the constant practice of the ships returning to Bombay, or to any part of India, to bring their returns in tea, if they can find a vent for it.

Are there any means in those seas of controul by manifests or clearances, or any other functions of revenue officers?—It would be extremely difficult to prevent a traffic of that kind in those seas; there are no establishments of any kind in those islands, nor any where there; except at the Company's settlements there is no check whatever.

Have the goodness to say, whether it is usual to deduct the discounts and drawbacks from the invoices, when the goods are sold at a per centage upon the invoice?—When two merchants purchase goods, the one for credit, and the other for ready money, if they both go to the same market, I conceive the one who has money may take the advantage of receiving the discount or interest for his money that he pays; the other man who does not pay money exhibits his invoices at the same rate, and they both sell alike, he does not deduct his discount; but the drawback on glass and other articles is now generally given up to the merchant abroad.

WILLIAM DAVIES, esq. was called in, and examined.

You were formerly a purser on board one of the Company's ships; were you not?—Yes, I was.

How many voyages did you act as purser, and during those whither did you go?—Four voyages, to China and India, having touched at South America, Africa, Sumatra, and Java.

Is not the purser, generally, a considerable trader upon his own account, or in conjunction with his commander; and in the latter case has he not generally the management of the investment?—I was a partner with the captain of the ship, and had the chief management of the investment.

Have you, since that period, during the last ten years, been acting as a merchant trading to the East Indies?—Not for the last ten years, speaking from the present day; for the last three years I have employed my capital as a ship owner; ten years prior to those three I employed a large capital as an East India merchant.

You were in partnership with a house in Madras, were you not?—I have a partner in London of the name of Card, who was a partner in a house of consideraable note in Madras, the house of Hope and Company, for sixteen years; a man exceedingly well acquainted with the details of trade at Madras.

You had a mercantile establishment at Madras as well as in London, had you not?—It was not precisely that, but we did consign our goods to Madras under peculiar advantages, our house being in London.

Was not your house regarded as one of the principal houses trading to Madras, as an export house?—I think it was; I am of opinion that no merchant of the city of London consigned so large a quantity of European goods to Madras, as the house that I was at the head of.

Did you during that period endeavour with great enterprise and no want of capital, to extend the export of British articles to the East Indies, in as great a degree as they were capable of extension?—I was very desirous of encreasing the trade, with the hope of obtaining a larger profit; we did not want capital; we bad a surplus capital; nor did we extend our credit to any thing like the extent we might have done, if it had been an object to us to have enlarged our trade.

Was there any want of activity or enterprize to encrease the export, if it had been possible?—I think not; I do not think it requires much talent to export goods to India, where there is an ample supply of capital.

State the general success of the last few years of that sort of speculation?—The trade to India, prior to the year 1793, was a profitable trade; from the year 1793 to 1806, it bore a fair profit; since that period, I am of opinion that no merchant in London could have gained by any investment exported to any part of India.

To what do you impute that circumstance?—There were certain facilities given by the act of parliament of 1793 to the private traders; but there were certain clogs; in the year 1806, there were greater facilities given, and that, I presume, was one cause, with, perhaps, trade to other parts of the world being more stagnant than it had been before that period, so as to induce merchants to ship more largely than they had done before; and the Indian market having before had an ample supply, the profits upon that surplus export were very small indeed; I know my house was not a gainer, and I know that I had equal advantages to what any other house in London could have had.—Since the year 1806, I think that the exports hare been greater than the demand, consistently with a fair expectation of profit.—I am of opinion that the export trade to the private merchant has been since the year 1806, a losing concern; generally speaking, it is possible that some particular articles may have produced a profit; bat speaking of investments generally, I am quite sure that the export trade since the year 1806, up to the present time, taking the average, must have been a losing concern to every merchant in London, who had to pay freight, insurance and agency.

Generally speaking, from about the period of 1806, has the market in India for articles of British manufactures been in a state of glut or otherwise?—It has been in a state of glut.

Supposing the trade to be laid open, would it more frequently happen that the whole cargo should belong to a single trader, or that a variety of traders should be concerned in it?—It would take a large capital for an individual merchant, or a house, to freight a ship to India of 5 or 600 tons, which is the smallest class, and I presume it is a risk; I am sure, at the present day, it must be a risk that no prudent merchant would embark in.

Do you think, that under the circumstances of an open trade, the more general trading would be by a variety of owners or traders on one ship?—If the trade were thrown open, I think that there would be an increased difficulty, applying the words in an enlarged sense, to what exists at present in obtaining freight; I have been offered freight as low as 4l. per ton; but knowing what I do of the Indian market, it was not sufficient to induce me to send an investment upon those terms, nor do I think that any individual merchant could now freight a ship on as low terms as the East India Company at this present day obtain their freight; I am the proprietor of a small ship that was built at an out-port at Chester; I bought her with her stores, at the very reasonable sum of 13,200l., by paying ready money; I have since fitted out that ship, and she" has gone one voyage in the Company's service, at a higher freightage than they now give by nearly 6l. per ton, the result of that was to me a losing concern, because the Committee should understand, the individual merchant, to a certain degree, becomes an insurer of the safety of the Company's cargo; when this ship of mine returned, the Company charged me nearly 6,000l. for damage done their goods; now, if this ship had remained as a West India ship, the very leak that did me this injury, would have been rather serviceable to her as a West India ship, because it would have checked the dry rot.

Do you mean that the Company are so circumspect with respect to the goodness of their ships, in order to preserve the safety of their cargoes, that they exact a degree of quality and repair that leaves the ship owner but a very moderate profit?—I have reason to believe that I fit my ships as cheap as any merchant in London can do; there is no reason why it should not be so.

Is the Committee to understand that your adventure in this ship, notwithstanding all these circumstances of care and economy, was to yourself rather an unprofitable concern?—It has proved an unprofitable concern.

You are understood to have said, that you apprehend a prudent merchant would rarely be found a single freighter of a whole ship?—I think not, at this present time.

In case of an open trade, would not the ships that should proceed to India be generally freighted by a variety of persons?—I presume so.

Supposing a vessel to be freighted by a variety of persons, must they not, in the nature of things, frequently be very dependent upon each other's convenience, subject to the delay occasioned by each other, and upon the whole, quite as likely to be delayed, as in any instance, according to your experience, you have known to take place with regard to the Company's extra ships, under the Act of 1793?—I am of opinion that they would.

Have you had any opportunity of understanding the nature of the trade to Bombay?—As a merchant, I have made consignments to Bombay; I believe about 1805 or 1806, and they did not turn out profitable.

Do you happen to know the usual cargoes which commanders of vessels take out to Bombay, what proportion may consist of merchandize, and, if any, what proportion of bullion?—I believe the greater proportion is in bullion, that they may be at a certainty of purchasing a cotton cargo, to take from thence to China.

If then at Bombay there were an unsupplied demand for British manufactures, would it not answer the end of the commanders to take out such, in preference to bullion?—I think it would, because I know that many of them are obliged to borrow money in this country to obtain bullion with; and I, at this period, have two gentlemen in the capacity of agents at Bombay, who are superintending the building of a ship; the building of that ship will require a capital of certainly not less than 60,000l., and it would have been extremely convenient to me to have sent 20 or 30,000l. worth of goods to that country, rather than to have had bills drawn upon me.

Assuming there to be a great Parsee population at Bombay, and that they assimilate more to European manners than any other description of natives, has not the Bombay market been supplied with European articles almost to a degree of glut, for several years past?—My having made consignments there, to a house of great respectability, who I have no doubt exerted themselves as much as any agents could for their constituents, and the returns having to me been unprofitable, is fair ground for my presuming that the market has been overstocked.

Can you inform the Committee, whether the natives of India are in a progressive and apparently increasing disposition, to manufacture among themselves such articles as have been usually exported from this country, of British manufactures?—I know that the natives of India possess sufficient talent, if properly directed, to manufacture many of the things that the Europeans require in that country, or that the higher class of the natives of the country may be inclined to purchase, such as carriages; leather of all sorts for the army; boots and shoes, I think nearly as good as Hoby's; watches, I believe they do not make the inside of the watch, but I know they put them together there; and cabinet ware also; and I know no reason why, if properly directed, the talents of the Hindoo or the Mahometan, may not become as useful in the making of all the requisites there, as any mechanic in this country; I need not add, that the price of labour must operate powerfully.

According to your experience and observation, has this disposition and faculty been increasing or otherwise?—It has been increasing since I first knew India, considerably.

Assuming, that under an open trade, access to every description of British subjects would be given to India, including artificers of various descriptions, and looking to the immense disproportion in the price of labour between that country and this, are you of opinion, that this disposition to manufacture what are called European or British articles, may increase to such a degree as materially and seriously to supersede the necessity of importation into India of such articles?—I have of late perceived, on the part of traders of the city of London, what I consider too great an inclination to become merchants; and I do believe, that there are many of them, and many of the mechanics, who, if they had the power of establishing an agent in India, would consign some goods to him, and send out some raw materials for him to manage there, and in consequence of the low price of labour in India, they might get them wrought up so as to undersell any thing exported from this country.

Under the circumstances of an open trade and unlimited access to some or all of the ports in India, do you apprehend that such a course of things would take place?—That must be matter of opinion; but I am decidedly of opinion that it would tend to that effect.

Have you had any opportunity of being acquainted with the nature of the trade to the Eastern Archipelago, or any of the islands in the eastern seas?—I have been at Sumatra, I have been at Java and Batavia.

Has it been an endeavour on the part of your house to increase the export of British manufactures to any of those Eastern Islands?—There has been at all times a desire on the part of our house to increase our trade, because we have had, during a great part of the time, a surplus capital. We wrote to our correspondents in India to ask whether there was a chance of doing any good business in the Eastern Islands, and we were informed by them they had tried the experiment; that there was a great glut of goods at Madras; that they had sent the goods to Banda and Amboyna, and had found the sales not productive of profit.

As far as your knowledge has extended, as to the success of such attempts to export British manufactures to the Eastern Islands, have they or not succeeded?—They have not.

Is it your opinion that the Eastern Islands are amply supplied with such British manufactures as they require, and at as cheap a rate as could be reasonably expected under the circumstances of an open trade?—I am of opinion so; and my reasons for having formed that opinion are these: lately I had a ship, which it would have been my interest, as an owner, to have sent to Batavia, but the captain of the ship remonstrated, that he would be a loser by going there, as the demand for European goods was so small.

If every subject of the United Kingdom had access to the whole of the Eastern Archipelago, could the successful export of British manufactures be increased to those ports?—I think not; the Company have granted licences to a class of ships within the last two years, between twenty and thirty, to go to the eastward of the Cape of Good Hope; some of those have gone to the Isle of France, and from thence to Batavia, looking more to the homeward-bound cargo for profit, as I am led to believe.

Are you of opinion, that the cargoes of two vessels of 350 tons burthen, or thereabouts, consisting of British manufactures, would be more than enough for their annual supply?—I am decidedly of opinion, that two vessels laden with British manufactures would be more than ample for the supply of all the Eastern Islands: my reason for thus thinking is, that I was at Batavia some years ago; the ship that I was in arrived there first; she ran away from the fleet, in the hope of getting to a good market, knowing that if the three ships which left England together should arrive at the same period, they must hurt each other; the ship that I was in arrived there first; she did sell part of the goods that she had, but could not find a market for the whole; the other two came in about three weeks afterwards, and I believe they did not, between them, sell to the extent of a thousand pounds in amount.

If the trade were thus thrown open to the eastern seas, do you entertain the least doubt of every commander of a ship being able to supply himself with tea, if such were the object of his speculation, without going to Canton?—I am decidedly of opinion that he would have the power of obtaining an ample supply of tea, because the Chinese junks might bring it down to either Java or Sumatra, and I think, for lucre, the Malays would give all possible aid.

The Committee is to understand as your opinion, that though hopeless, as to the increase of the export of British manufactures to the eastern seas, you have no doubt of the means of an unlimited purchase of teas therein, without going to Canton, should the party be so disposed?—When I was at Batavia, tea might have been purchased in almost any quantity; the Chinese junks bring it from Canton to Batavia; and I have no doubt whatever, if you were to hold out to them an ample inducement, you may have it in any quantity you please.

Have you happened to make any distinct experiment as to the export of woollens, to see with what advantage you could export them to India?—Yes, I have. I had occasion to send out certain supplies for the army in India, among the rest I sent out the facings for their clothing; I have sent out at different periods prior to 1806, a large quantity of woollens, but I found that the Company at all times could undersell me.

To what do you impute their thus un- derselling you?—I presume a determination on their part to get rid of a certain quantity of goods, because I do not believe that they purchased upon better terms than I did.

Do you mean from an anxiety to dispose of a certain quantity of British produce or manufactures?.—What the motive of the Company may have been, whether a patriotic motive, or whether in pursuit of gain, I shall not take upon myself to presume; but the fact was, that they did undersell me, and I am of opinion, that they must have lost by the sale of those cloths, because I am decidedly of opinion, that my purchases were as favourable in this country, as theirs could have been.

Were you induced to repeat the experiment, or did you abandon the hope of ri-valship with the Company?—No; I think it would have been idle on the part of an individual merchant, to attempt to cope with the sovereigns of the country.

You mean that, with that sort of patriotism on the part of the Company, those attempts to give every possible chance to the export of British manufactures, you could not encounter without being a commercial loser?—My object in exporting to India, was at all times in pursuit of gain; I had no other object; for a merchant, when speaking as a trader, to boast of his amor patriœ, is idle; I found that I could not cope with the Company.

Referring to your known high character and station in society, have you the least personal interest, one way or the other, in this question, between opening the trade to the out-ports, or keeping it as it is?—You put the question seriously to me as a gentleman; I will tell you, it was impossible for government to have drawn a plan more beneficial to my individual interest, than the propositions that have been laid before the House of Commons, and I will tell you why; I am the chief proprietor of two 1200 ton ships, if the advantages connected with the patronage of 800 ton ships are done away, it makes them much more valuable as to the patronage; I have a small ship now engaged in the Company's employ, which I am very desirous of disposing of, and I think others carrying the trade on, may give me an opportunity of selling her on more favourable terms.

Then, as far as you haves personal interest, it would be to support the resolutions proposed to the House of Commons?—It would.

(Examined by the Committee.)

What description of goods were your consignments to Bombay composed of principally?—They consisted of a variety of goods, wines, brandies, and other articles; it is a detail of trade which my partner manages more than myself; I believe hats, shoes, pickles, confectionary, and cabinet ware, have formed a part; but I know there was a quantity of wines and brandies.

Have not you heard of such articles being frequently sold in India, on their arrival, at a very great advance?—Many years ago they did so; but of late years I have not heard of any selling at a great advance.

What kind of goods would you take to China, as a remittance for the purchase of your returning investment?—In the present state of the China market, I should be more disposed to take specie than any goods; but if I did take goods, they should consist of lead, furs, smalts, and glass ware.

Are there no other British manufactures you would be disposed to take to China?—Excepting glass ware, I do not recollect any thing that I think would be productive of profit.

Is not the trade to China in Woollens considered a losing one, on the part of the Company?—I have heard it so rumoured, but I have had no means of ascertaining the fact.

To what extent do you suppose a commander of an Indiaman would take woollens to China, if he were permitted so to do?—That is so much matter of opinion, that I can scarcely say it would depend upon the man; some of them are prudent traders, others are more speculative.

Would not you yourself prefer taking woollens to any other article, particularly camlets?—Having made one experiment in opposition to the Company, I should not feel disposed to try a second.

Would not, in your opinion, the export of woollens and tin by the commanders, and officers of the honourable Company's ships, be considerably increased if the Company were to withdraw the restriction upon the exportation of them to China?—Perhaps, from necessity, they may be induced so to do, because, I believe, all of them have not sufficient command of capital to purchase a sufficient quantity of specie in this country, to buy their return cargo.

Are you sufficiently acquainted with the produce of the islands in those seas, to know whether any quantity of tin might not be procured from Banca, at a considerably lower rate than it could be imported from Great Britain?—Yes; I believe large quant ties of tin may be obtained at Banca, and carried to China, so as to undersell that sent from Great Britain.

Supposing a merchant to go to India for the purpose of a return cargo from thence, would he not be satisfied to receive prime cost on the exports from this country to India, if the returns yielded him an adequate profit upon the whole voyage? I presume that the original object of the merchant would be, to obtain a fair return of profit; and whether it was derived from the outward bound investment, or the homeward bound cargo, would be a matter of perfect indifference, so that ultimately, on the return of the ship, a fair profit was produced.

Has the manner in which the Company have supplied tonnage to the manufacturers for exports from this country been such, as, in your judgment, to give sufficient encouragement, to our manufacturers to export their goods to India?—I am of opinion that sufficient accommodation was given to the public under the Act of 1793; there may have been some little trouble as to the forms of office, but I know enough of the India House, generally speaking, to say, that the heads of the offices are a set of very respectable men, I think quite equal to any of the public offices of government, and I have never perceived any difficulties wantonly thrown in the way. In the shipping office difficulties may arise with the clerk, shoemakers, and cabinetmakers, or men not acquainted with the forms of office, coming in and making a demand at the same time, has occasioned obstructions to a man acquainted with the routine of his business, and who would not give any trouble if he could get access to the clerk to whom, he should go; but, with making fair allowances, I think ample accommodation has been given, and the best proof I can adduce is, that the Act says, the Company shall grant 3000 tons per annum; now, upon the average of eighteen years, the quantity used by the public amounts precisely to 1,211 tons a year.

Are you of opinion that a greater average amount of export would have taken place, if greater facilities had been given to the manufacturers?—I see that in 1807, 1808 and 1809, there was an increased demand, but in 1810 and 1811, there was a very considerable falling off; now I can suppose that to have arisen from men shipping who did not know the real state of the market, and who, about the period of 1809, and 1810, had discovered the fallacy of their expectations in making large shipments to India: however, there was in addition to this grant, of which the public did not avail themselves, an allowance granted in the year 1806, and I think that considerable losses have arisen. It is my opinion that the traders possessing capital, knowledge and experience, have withdrawn from it, and that shipments have been made by men who had not capital, some of whom have become bankrupts; the consequence is, that the loss arising from their speculations has fallen upon the industrious manufacturers or tradesmen, a thing which it appears to me extremely desirable to guard against; because if a man without capital says he will oppose me in trade, supposing I possess 10,000l., and each of us has losses to the amount of 10,000l. I and my family are deprived of those comforts we possessed, but the speculator is precisely where he was, all he has to do is to become a bankrupt, and he starts afresh; I have been informed and believe, that there are underwriters, who attend Lloyd's, that have been twice bankrupt.

Is it within your knowledge, that the manufacturers of British articles have themselves been the shippers, or have desired to be the shippers, or whether the articles which have gone, have generally gone from merchants and other adventurers to India?—It was the object with those who did ship such goods to conceal the matter of fact from the merchants, because it would interfere with the sale of the merchants' consignment, which they had purchased from them; but I have been informed, that some of the manufacturers have exported on their own account; I have heard that sir Robert Peel did to a large extent: I believe that some of the minor manufacturers in London have exported goods on their own account, but as it was an object to them to conceal that from me and other merchants who had given them orders, I have not known it from them.

Do you conceive this to be an experiment made once or twice, or that they continued in this practice from year to year?—Of late I understand they have discovered it an unprofitable attempt, and have desisted.

You now speak of the manufacturers themselves?—I rather speak of the traders than the manufacturers; I am not so well formed as to what the manufacturers did, except in the instance of sir Robert Peel, as I am of the traders who call themselves manufacturers in London, manufacturers of hats and manufacturers of shoes, for instance.

Practically, in point of fact, if a man had to choose at this moment, whether he would send out his goods in one of the Liverpool or Bristol ships, or in one of the Company's extra ships, would the rate of freight and insurance to which he would be subject, in the first place, in the private ship, and in the second, on the Company's ship, vary, and to what degree?—That is a matter of calculation: I believe the Company charge to the public 8l. per ton; I believe they are not gainers by the freight that they let to the public; I have been informed, and I believe accurately informed, that their loss upon ships that they have freighted from individuals, and relet to the public, between the year 1795 and the year 1810, has amounted to 444,293l.; I think no Liverpool, Hull or Bristol merchant, could export goods to India cheaper, taking insurance and every thing into consideration, than he may at this time through the Company.

In what way do you suppose the ship owners to be ultimately indemnified for those tenders, at rates apparently losing?—They are not indemnified; they are losers.

How come those tenders to go on?—Because the ship owner having got his ship into that line of service, has of late found a difficulty in getting any other employ for it; and there may be other inducements of a nobler nature, such as serving young men who have been patronized by the ship's husband; the captain of my ship happens to be a Welchman, and on that account, as a countryman of mine, I have made up my mind to make a considerable sacrifice for his benefit.

You understand it to be worth while for an owner who wishes to serve a captain, to lose a certain sum of money to place that captain in the command of a Company's ship?—No; I do not understand it to be worth while to do so; but an owner having placed a young man once in the command of a ship, he, in consequence of attaining that situation, having married an amiable woman, and got a family, the owner afterwards may feel disposed to sacrifice a sum of money for the benefit of that family, and keeping the young man in a situation that he has filled with credit to himself and service to his country; such were my feelings when I made an offer of this ship on a second voyage to the East India Company; myself and partner are proprietors of twelve sixteenths of that ship, as we are of what other ships we have, except one, and in that we have eleven. I have a great respect for some of the captains that have served us, and I should be extremely sorry to see a man lowered from the situation that I had been the means of placing him in, and leading his family to expect he for years would continue in. When I first bought this ship it was in the hope of gain; the freights were better then, and I did hope they would increase, instead of which they have fallen off.

Do you think it possible, as a merchant, this system can go on long?—I am of opinion that the system of the Company obtaining freights on the very low terms they do at present, cannot last so long, because, I presume, no man would keep his ship in that employ longer than until he could find a more profitable one for her.

Do not the Company take up their ships by public contract at the lowest bidding?—The executive body of the Company act in the most correct and honourable way; the fault is not with them; it is the competition, it is the want of employment in other services; a merchant says, it is better that I should gain 20,000l. by my ship, though that will not remunerate me, than that I should not gain any thing for twelve months, or that I should embark her in a service where I shall only gain 15,000l.

In general when a ship is engaged to the Company, is she not engaged for six voyages, extending probably fifteen years, so that having once made an engagement they cannot alter it?—I have built two ships for the Company; my contract, prior to the keel of those two ships being laid, was for an engagement of six voyages, but the ship I have been last speaking of was engaged for one voyage only; but in general the contract is for six voyages, and the only terms on which I could be tempted to come into any engagement with the Company again as a ship owner.

May 7th.

WILLIAM STANLEY CLARKE, esq. was called in, and examined:

—Are you in the sea service, or have you been in the sea service of the East India Company?—I have, more than 25 years.

Have you been commander of a regular ship of the Company's service?—I have; six voyages, during about 15 years.

In consequence of having been so long in the Company's service, are you acquainted with the Indian trade?—Generally so, of that part of it which commanders and officers of our ships are accustomed to participate in.

You have regularly made use of your privilege as an officer in carrying out investments to India?—Invariably.

What has been the assortment of goods of which those investments have consisted?—A general assortment, consisting of staples and in short, of every description of merchandize suited to the Indian markets.

Principally English produce and manufacture?—Yes, principally so.

What British produce and manufacture are suited to the Indian market?—The staple articles are iron, lead, and copper; the miscellaneous, wine, beer, hams, cheese, &c. and in short, a great variety of articles suited to European consumption.

What articles of British manufacture?—Almost every kind of British manufacture; such as sadlery, glass ware, and also furniture, in a small degree.

Any woollens?—Woollens are prohibited to the commanders and officers of the Company's ships.

Do you think any private trader can carry out British produce and manufactures to India with the same advantage as the superior officers in the Company's service?—I conceive, certainly not. They are granted a certain privilege by the regulations of the East India Company, by virtue of which, they carry out their investments free of all freight.—They insure at the same rate that the Company's ships are generally insured; certainly I believe at a lower rate than ships of a smaller description, and of less force, would be subject to.

Can you state to the Committee, whether the investments carried out from this country by the Company's officers, have of late been profitable to them, or otherwise?—The profitable result of the invest- ments carried out from this country, is very dependent upon the state of the markets, and the markets of late years have generally been so fully stocked, as I believe to yield a very moderate advantage. I have in my possession a letter from a captain of one of the ships that went out in the last season to Madras, in which he describes his great apprehensions of suffering a very serious loss from his outward investment, in consequence of the great glut in the market of all European articles.—I do not mean to say that the markets were always overstocked in my time, but I think generally, they have been so much so as to yield but a small return under the description of profit.

During the time you were employed in the Indian service, did you observe that any new articles of British manufacture, or produce, found a market in India, or were demanded there? — I really am unable to name any new article: I certainly myself tried an experiment in carrying out some Manchester goods to the amount of about 1,000l. on two of my voyages, and it assisted the disposal of the rest of my investment, by making the assortment more general, but I believe merely to that limited extent that I could have hoped for a market, and that chiefly for the consumption of Europeans.

In your opinion, if a free trade were opened between this country and India, would there be any increased demand, either among the natives of India, or among Europeans, for British commodities?—I apprehend not among the natives.

Do you apprehend there would among the Europeans?—I think that would much depend upon the possibly increased number of European residents, and the consequent increased number of consumers.

From your experience, do you think that the capital that is now employed by the Company, and by private merchants in the Indian trade, is fully adequate to embrace it according to the present demands?—According to the present demands, I should say certainly.

Are you well acquainted with the islands in the Indian Archipelago?—I have been through several of what are called the Eastern Straits, and I have also visited the island of Amboyna, and Bally town, in the Straits of Alias; the native name is Loboagee.

Do you apply the term the Eastern Islands, to the whole of the Archipelago, or only part of it?—I believe the Straits of Macassar are considered by navigators the western limits of the Eastern Archipelago.

State to the Committee, whether the inhabitants of those islands are of a mild or of a ferocious disposition generally?—The natives of the islands of Celebes and Borneo are said to be ferocious; I speak not from personal knowledge of them; those with whom I had intercourse in the Straits of Alias were a courteous and civil people, but still when there a single ship, we used great caution in our intercourse with them, to guard against any disposition to treachery.

Has it not been found by experience, that they generally have a disposition to treachery?—I believe generally where they have any interest to become so, or their resentment is excited.

Are they not what may be considered a barbarous, rather than a civilized people?—I certainly so consider them.

What is the clothing of the natives?—Of the simplest description possible; they wear a garment round their middle, and a turban or light cap upon their heads, which I believe form the principal, if not entire, part of their clothing.—They are of cotton cloths of their own manufacture.

What articles of European produce or manufacture, in your opinion, can be disposed of amongst them?—I am really unaware of any articles of European manufacture, unless it were a supply of ammunition and fire-arms, which are a prohibited article; when I was in the Straits of Alias, for poultry, and such minor description of provisions, we found they would accept in exchange to a certain extent of knives, and such articles of coarse cutlery; for bullocks and provisions of a more expensive kind, we paid in dollars; commercial dealings we had none.

Is there any the least chance of disposing of woollen goods of this country to any amount, among those islands?—I think not.

Do you think the ports of those islands have been already fully explored, in a commercial point of view?—I apprehend the country traders have been most active and enterprising in endeavouring to explore them in every possible way, with a view to any advantage they might have derived from them.

Supposing a private trader of this country were to send out a ship of 400 tons to those islands loaded with British produce, how long do you think it would take such a trader to dispose of his cargo?—In my opinion, he would not be able to dispose of it at all; and it would be highly essential that his ship should be extremely well armed, as are the country ships which go on that description of voyage.

Are not the Eastern Islands governed by petty rajahs, who are extremely jealous of, and hostile to each other?—I have understood so.

So jealous, that the trading with one of them would be likely to excite the hostility of others?—I think it would be likely to become an object of contention between them.

Do you then think that the Eastern Islands could be to any British merchant an object of fair trade, with a view to commercial profit, upon any rational principle?—With a view to the sale of British produce, I should say, certainly not.

Supposing a British merchant to send his ships to those seas, do you think he could get teas in those seas, supposing the China trade still to be confined to the East India Company, and supposing an illicit commerce to be a part of his object?—There would be certainly no difficulty in obtaining teas, if it became an object to obtain them among those islands.

Is not the high duty on tea, and the high price in consequence, the strongest possible inducement to smuggling in that article?—No doubt it must operate as a great temptation.

State to the Committee, how in your opinion a trader, having such illicit objects in view, would obtain teas in the Eastern Islands?—I apprehend, if such was their object, they might obtain them with greater facility from Manilla, or some of the ports towards the Straits of Malacca, or even in Java.

Taking Manilla first, through what vessels do you imagine they would obtain such illicit cargoes of tea, at Manilla?—They might do so, by means of the Chinese junks, or probably by the aid of Portuguese or Spanish ships from Macao.

How do you imagine they would obtain such cargoes of tea either at Java or towards the Straits of Malacca?—There is a constant intercourse between China, Cochin Coina and Java, as well as the Eastern Islands, by means of the Chinese junks; and country ships returning from China, pass through the Straits of Malacca, and could certainly land any quantity of teas at the intermediate ports.

Are there not Chinese colonies upon the northern coast of Java, with which, by means of their junks, the Chinese have constant communication?—I understand there are.

Would there be any difficulty in obtaining tea to any amount that is likely to be required, either from the Hong merchants, or what are called the outside men, in China?—I believe tea might be obtained in any quantity.

Do you know the fact, that the East India Company have the choice of the best teas?—I have understood them to have the selection of all the teas that come to Canton.

Supposing an illicit commerce in tea to be carried on to any amount, is it your opinion, that the teas so introduced into this country would be of a very inferior quality?—I should think they would be very inferior to the Company's teas, much might depend, however, upon the judgment and capability of selection, of the parties who purchased them.

Do you know any thing of the island of Banca and its produce?—The produce of Banca is principally tin.

Do you know whether the island of Banca produces tin in any considerable quantities?—I understand it to do so.

Have you the means of information whether that tin is easily obtained from the mines in the island of Banca?—I apprehend it to be so, but I never visited Banca myself.

Have you heard whether that tin is smelted easily or with difficulty?—I have heard easily; but I speak from general information.

Have you heard that the Chinese have in a very great degree been supplied with tin through the Dutch, from the island of Banca?—Yes, in former times.

Do you know whether the Eastern Islands produce iron?—I am told they do, some of them.

Do you know whether the iron instruments and arms used by the natives of those islands, are manufactured by themselves from their own iron?—I believe chiefly by themselves; I have also understood that they formerly obtained an occasional supply from the Dutch, of ornamented fire-arms; indeed I saw some of that description in the Straits of Alias, when I was there.

State what return cargo a merchant trading to the Eastern Islands could find there for Europe?—I am not aware of any thing; unless a quantity of mother of pearl shells, a small supply of tortoise shell, and perhaps some spicery; on the islands called the Fejee Islands, there has been found a small quantity of sandal wood, which the American traders have brought to China of late years, but very inferior in quality to what is sent from India.

Lieutenant-Colonel Sir JOHN MALCOLM was called in, and examined by the Committee:

Do you wish to correct any part of your evidence?—In page 109 of my examination, a question was asked me, "Might not an increase in the knowledge of useful arts in the natives, conveyed by British subjects resident in India, tend to strengthen the British government in India?" my answer, was, "I conceive that such knowledge might tend, in a considerable degree, to increase their own comforts and their enjoyment of life; but I cannot see how it would tend in any shape to strengthen the political security of the English government in India, which appears to me to rest peculiarly upon their present condition;" I wish to add, that I mean by stating that the political security of the English government in India, appears to rest peculiarly upon the present condition of the native subjects, to refer to their actual divisions into casts, with particular duties and occupations, and to that reverence and respect which they entertain for Europeans, not only on account of their knowledge of the superior branches of science, but also of their better knowledge of many of the mechanical and more useful arts in life; and therefore, though I conceive that the communication of such knowledge to the natives would add to their comforts, and their enjoyments of life, and would encrease their strength as a community, I do not think that the communication of any knowledge, which tended gradually to do away the subsisting distinctions among our native subjects, or to diminish that respect which they entertain for Europeans, could be said to add to the political strength of the English government. I am far, however, from stating an opinion that the contemplation of its even lessening that strength, which is to be viewed as a distant, and many may conceive, a speculative danger, should operate as a motive with the English government to check the progress of im- provement in such useful arts among its native subjects; but it appears to me one, among many other causes, that should keep the English government very awake to the growing difficulty of governing the Indian empire.

Are not you of opinion, that to increase the comforts and enjoyments of life of the native population of India, would tend to strengthen their attachment to the British government, and consequently to strengthen and insure the stability of that government in India?—From all I have ever been able to observe of nations, I do not think we can calculate upon gratitude for benefits of the nature described, as an operating motive that would at all balance against the danger of that strength which such a community as that of our Indian subjects might derive from the general diffusion of knowledge and the eventual abolition of its casts, a consciousness of which would naturally incline them to throw off the yoke of a foreign power; and such they always must consider the British in India; I wish to be understood as alluding in this answer to a danger that is very remote, but yet, in my opinion, worthy of attention.

Are not the natives of India, in your opinion, susceptible of gratitude in the highest degree; have you not known instances of generosity and liberality on the part of the natives of India which would have done honour to any men in any age?—I think the natives of India, individually considered, are susceptible of gratitude, and I have known many instances of liberality and generosity among them; but I do not conceive that we can, as I stated before, calculate upon such motives as likely to influence the community, which we shall always find it difficult to rule in proportion as it obtains union and possesses the power of throwing off that subjection in which it is now placed to the British government.

What is your opinion of the general character of the natives of India for honour, fidelity, and veracity?—I have, in my former evidence, stated, that the various communities of our subjects in India differ as much, perhaps, as the various nations in Europe. It is only possible, therefore, to give a general answer to this question. I have observed, not only throughout India, but in all the different governments in Asia, which I have travelled over, that, speaking generally, the veracity of the subjects has depended very much upon the government under which they were placed: where that was tyrannical, the oppressed subjects have had recourse to falsehood, as the means of defending themselves against oppression; and I have known in Mahometan governments, a thousand cases in which the falsehood was persevered in by heads of villages and other men, (though torture even was inflicted) with a view of saving their own daughters, and those of the persons in the village, from violation, or their property from plunder. In such situations and conditions of life, falsehood almost became a virtue; and men, amid such scenes, acquired a habit of concealing the truth in all points connected with their own property, or that of the persons immediately under them. When a government that regards justice succeeds to such tyranny as I have described, it requires many years before its subjects can believe that it does not mean to exercise its power in the same manner to which they have been accustomed, and changes in the habits of a nation must be gradual. It is also to be observed, that the officers of the English government, though many of them speak the language of the natives what is called tolerably well, have seldom that very minute knowledge of the idiom of the different dialects of India that can enable them fully to understand the story of a low or an ignorant native: and it is, in my opinion, to the habits arising out of former oppression, and to the want of a full knowledge of the language in those with whom they communicate, that we must refer most of those general and indiscriminate accusations against our Indian subjects, for falsehood as a national vice. I have hardly ever known where a person did understand the language, or where a calm communication was made to a native of India through a well informed and trust-worthy medium, that the result did not prove that what had first been stated as falsehood had either proceeded from fear, or from misapprehension; I by no means wish to state, that our Indian subjects are more free from this vice than other nations that occupy a nearly equal condition in society, but I am positive, that they are not more addicted to it. With respect to the honour of our native subjects, it is (as that feeling is understood in this country) chiefly cherished by the military tribes of India; among them I have known innumerable instances of its being carried to a pitch that would be considered in England, more fit for the page of a romance than a history: with regard to their fidelity, I think, as far as my knowledge extends, there are, generally speaking, no race of men more to be trusted; I can mention large classes of menials, such as the Gen-too palanquin-boys at Madras, who amount to 20, or 30,000, and a great proportion of whom are employed by the English government, or the individuals serving it, who, as a body, are remarkable for their honesty and fidelity; during a period of nearly 30 years, I cannot call to mind one instance being proved of theft, in any one of this class of men, whose average wages is from three rupees a month, to eight rupees, or from 7s. 6d. to 1l. I remember hearing of one instance of extraordinary fidelity; where an officer died at the distance of near 300 miles from the settlement of Fort St. George, with a sum of between 2 and 3,000l. in his palanquin: these honest men, alarmed at even suspicion attaching to them, salted him, brought him 300 miles to Madras, and lodged him in the town major's office with all the money sealed in bags. Among the natives in our military, I can speak the feelings, I believe of all officers well acquainted with them, that it never enters into our contemplation that we are to be deceived or defrauded by a seapoy; and as far as I can judge from the character of that class of men, what the rest must be (wherever they have equal confidence in the Europeans who communicate with them as the seapoys have in their officers) I should state that there are few large communities in the world, whose dispositions are better, or (speaking to the virtues described in the question) more praise-worthy: it may also be stated as a general proof of their possessing those qualities, the attachment which almost all European masters who reside in India feel for their native servants: this feeling, amongst those who understand the language, and who are of good temper and character, is almost without an exception: I may be allowed to add a circumstance that took place in my own family when ordered to Persia in 1800, I had, from the public situation I held, a numerous retinue of native servants, consisting of between 20 and 30; among these were men from the furthest boundary of Hindostan to cape Comorin, and of almost all casts and religions: I told them I was going to Persia, and I am certain, from their total ignorance of geo- graphy, that they had no more idea of the quarter to which they were about to proceed, than if I had told them I was going to America; but there was not the slightest objection made by any individual to follow me to that country, and I am sure that they showed this attachment to me from nothing more than that common good usage, which never has, in any instance that I recollect, failed of attaching them.

You spoke of the attachment of the native troops to their officers, do you think that attachment is as strong now, particularly in the Madras army, as it was some years ago, or have any events lately occurred that have shaken that attachment?—I fear many events have occurred in the Madras army, which have very seriously shaken that attachment, some of these have arisen from remote causes, and others, out of recent circumstances, upon which I conceive it is not necessary for me to dwell.

Do you conceive that the good feelings and sincere attachment to the native officers of that army are essential to the continuance of our military power in India?—I conceive that our native army in India may be said to form, at once, the safety and the danger of that empire; and I conceive that the native officers are the great and important link by which we must expect to hold that army in good order and subordination to our government: I therefore do conceive, that the good feelings and attachment of the native officers are quite essential to the continuance and security of our power in India.

Do you deem it of importance to the security of our Indian empire, to study every means that can strengthen and confirm the attachment of the native officers?—I do; and I consider, after the fullest deliberation that I have been able to give that subject, that if we do not succeed in effecting that object, it is quite impossible we should be able to maintain our empire in India.

Is it your opinion that the attachment of this class depends entirely upon the measures adopted by government for their encouragement, or do you think it liable to be seriously affected by any defects in the constitution of any part of our European military establishment attached to those corps?—I do not think that any measures of government, however wise and however calculated, in an abstract point of view, to effect the object, could do so, unless they were combined with such as remedied any existing defects, and prevented the occurrence of any hereafter, in the European part of the establishment, because it is, after all, upon the conduct of the European officers that we must chiefly rest, and they will always be considered by the natives as their immediate superiors, from whom their feeling will naturally take its colour; and any defects in one part of the system must consequently prove baneful to the other.

Do you think it would be advisable to change that part of the military system by which native officers sit on courts martial for the trial of offences in the native army, and to appoint European officers to that duty?—Though I have never, during the course of my service, had proof of any substantial act of injustice resulting from native officers sitting on a court-martial, I have often heard it alleged, that they were too ready to give way to the wishes of the superintending European officer, from feelings of submission and respect to that officer; but it is to be observed, that officer is almost always the adjutant of the corps, and generally one of the most experienced in it; but supposing that more substantial justice should be obtained, in some instances, by European officers sitting as members of courts martial upon natives, I should still state that I think it would be very improper to make any such alteration in the system: my reasons for this opinion refer as much, if not more, to political than military considerations.

Have you had an opportunity of observing how the interpreters in the courts of justice in India, at the different presidencies, are qualified for the situations which they fill?—I never was in any court of supreme justice in India, except that at Bombay, where my able and eloquent friend sir James Mackintosh presided; and I certainly did not think the native interpreter employed at that court very adequate to his duty; indeed the only instance to which my memory can at present refer, was noticed by sir James Mackintosh himself, and a gentleman who had knowledge of the language, and happened to be in court, was sworn in by desire of the judge to examine the evidence: I may add, generally, that I believe there are not fifty European gentlemen in India fully qualified, from their minute knowledge of the idiom of the vulgar dialects of the natives in India, to give a completely correct translation of the evidence of a native cross-questioned in one of our courts of justice. This, however, is merely given as my opinion.

Might not, in your opinion, a competent interpreter be obtained in the course of a few years, if sufficient encouragement were given to Europeans to qualify themselves for that important situation?—The defect of native interpretation arises from their want of correct knowledge of the idiom of the English language; that of Europeans from their want of correct knowledge of the different and local idioms of the native languages. It must be almost the study of an European's life, to render himself fully competent for such an office; and I conceive, nothing but the prospect of a large salary could induce any European, of respectable talents, to devote his whole time to the accomplishment of that object. Would not, in your opinion, the important object of security to the lives and property of the natives of India justify almost any pecuniary consideration that might be necessary, on the score of salary, to obtain competent interpreters?—I am far from stating that I think the misinterpretation has, on any occasion, gone so far in any of his Majesty's courts of justice, as to affect either the lives or property of our subjects; because I do believe, from what I witnessed in the court of Bombay, that there is a patient investigation, and a minute enquiry into all the particulars of the case, that must be calculated (in almost all instances) to discover any such errors as may be made; but I do certainly think it is an object of great importance to have gentlemen possessed of the first knowledge of the languages, to fill that situation.

What salary, in your opinion, would be necessary as an inducement to an European gentleman so qualified, to undertake the important office of interpreter?—I really cannot state any sum, but I think it should be such as to make it worth while for a man of liberal education to devote his life to render himself qualified for the office.

Could not you form a guess from your general knowledge of the salaries and allowances paid to the officers of his Majesty's courts in India, what sum would be considered a sufficient encouragement to a gentleman, so qualified, to undertake that office?—I think the salary of a person employed as such interpreter should be inferior to none but that of the judges themselves who preside in the court.

Do you think it possible that substantial justice can be dispensed without faithful interpretation of evidence?—I think that where a judge is fully aware that the interpretation is not minutely correct, the evil may be avoided by his careful and patient investigation of every question that is put to the evidence, and by his calling in, as the judge to whom I have alluded used to do, further aid whenever there was the slightest cause for suspicion of incorrect interpretation.

Are the judges in the courts in India supposed to have a competent knowledge of the language of the country; is it possible they can have such competent knowledge?—Generally speaking, I do not believe they have; but there are always, I imagine, officers of the court who have, and I conceive it perfectly possible that in most cases, a judge, who has given his whole attention to the subject, may be able to discover when there is any confusion in the interpretation: I am not able to give any clearer answer upon this point.

Is it within your knowledge, that the able and eloquent judge you have just alluded to possesses that competent knowledge of the languages of India?—Sir James Mackintosh does not understand the languages of India.

Have the goodness to state in what manner he was enabled to point out the defect in the interpretation of the evidence of a witness brought before him, to which you have alluded?—On the occasion to which I alluded, a Parsee inhabitant of Bombay was interpreting in the court at Bombay; he was interpreting an evidence that was describing what he had said himself, and in describing that, made use of the first person singular of an Hindostanee noun, stating, "I said so and so:"—In his evidence he proceeded to give an account of an English officer coming in, and the interpreter then explained the witness to have remarked, that the English officer said "we will do so and so;" on seeing the word 'we' noticed by some of the gentlemen of the law, and written down as if containing a proof that there were more than one concerned, I mentioned to sir James Mackintosh that the interpretation was incorrect, not from a want of knowledge in the interpreter of his own language, but from want of knowledge of the idiom of the English: that the native witness speaking of an English gentleman, used the plural term from respect, and on the witness being re-examined it was dis- covered to be the case. This is the only instance that I can call to my recollection.

Are you aware, that so much impressed was sir James Mackintosh with the necessity of having competent interpreters, that he applied to government to annex a sufficient salary to that office, to induce an, European gentleman of respectability to undertake it; which salary, however, was so limited, that the gentleman who had undertaken it, Mr. Erskine, and who was considered as having a more competent knowledge of the various languages of India, than perhaps any other resident at Bombay, threw up the appointment, after having held it about two years?—I am not particularly acquainted with the circumstance, but have no doubt of the fact.

Are there not many of the military officers who have a very competent knowledge of the Indian languages?—The great majority of the officers have a knowledge of the languages competent to the fulfilment of their military duties; but there are but few who have that exact and complete knowledge of the language, which I should pronounce as requisite before a person was competent to act as interpreter in a court of justice.

Are you not of opinion, that if an adequate salary were to be held out to some of those officers, they would be induced to qualify themselves fully for the office of interpreter, and to undertake that appointment on being permitted by government to resign their military situations (if that should be deemed necessary), which probably would not be the case?—The existence of one office of that kind, with a large salary, and which was to carry away military men from the duties of their profession, could, I conceive, have but a slight operation (if any at all) in the encouragement of a large body of officers, among whom it never could be regarded as an object of ambition; but no doubt many individuals might be found, to whom it would, from its salary, be a desirable office.

What is the pay and allowance of a subaltern on the Bombay establishment?—I really cannot answer, without reference to papers.

Does it amount to 300 rupees a month?— Certainly not.

Are there subalterns of eight or ten years standing, in the service?—There are some, I apprehend, of much longer standing.

You have stated, that you had a num- ber of servants of different casts in your employ, during your residence in India; did you not occasionally clothe those servants in European dresses?—During the last fourteen years of my service in India, which includes all the period that I was able to afford to give servants any clothing at all, I was employed in political situations, and my servants were generally clothed in woollens (as a matter of state) at the Company's expence.

Do you think those persons would have preferred their dresses, had they been made of the common comlie of the country?—I really cannot state how far their pride and vanity might have been gratified by wearing a red jacket instead of one of common cloth; but I can recollect no instance of their complaining, either of the one or the other, and they were seldom permitted to put on the clothing allowed to them, except on occasions where their services were required as state servants. With respect to comlies, I conceive they all had them, as a man has a cloak in this country, to use when it rained, or as a covering when they slept; but I never knew comlies made up as articles of dress.

Are these comlies used at all by the higher classes of the natives?—They make in some parts of the peninsula of India very fine comlies, that are used by the higher classes; the common black comlie is not used by natives who can afford to purchase the finer kind, or shawls.

Would not a native of consequence in India be ashamed to appear abroad in a common black comlie?—I do not think a native of consequence would wear the common black comlie as part of his dress; he might take up one to defend him from a shower of rain.

He would not wear it as a common article of dress?—No.

Would he have the same objection to appear abroad in English broad-cloth, which he would have to appear abroad in a common black comlie, as an article of dress?—He would consider a piece of English broad-cloth, if he had it, as a luxury, and an ornamental part of dress, and would have no objection whatever, I conceive, to wearing it.

Are you acquainted with the number of the native population called Portuguese, or native Christians, in India?—I am not particularly acquainted with their number; if it is meant to include also what are termed half-casts, or the children of Englishmen by native women, it is a very considerable population, but limited chiefly to the principal settlements of India, and there even, if spoken of comparatively with the natives, it forms but a small part.

Are not the habits and dress of those people, generally speaking, European, and do they not always dress in European woollens, when they can afford to purchase them?—The dress of the better class differs very little from that of the European himself.

Do you know, or have you ever heard, what was the state of the native armies of the rajahs of Travancore and Cochin, when those princes were perfectly independent of the British government?—I never was at Cochin or Travancore, and cannot answer with any minute or correct knowledge to this question.

Have you heard that, at the period alluded to, the infantry of those princes was dressed in woollen cloth jackets, and their principal Hindoo officers in complete European uniforms, including hats, shoes and boots?—I cannot call to my memory having heard the fact with respect to the particulars of their dress; but I have heard there was a regular infantry, clothed and disciplined, belonging to the prince of Travancore.

Clothed in European woollens?—Clothed in European woollens, as I have heard.

Are you personally acquainted with the late Coorga Rajah, and do you know how that Hindoo prince used to dress himself when in general Abercromby's camp?—I was not acquainted with the late Coorga Rajah, and cannot, therefore, state how he dressed himself, but always heard that he was particularly attached to the English nation; that he was fond of our habits and manners, and he was, in this instance, deemed an exception to the general rule of persons in his condition of life.

Do you know how the nabob of Surat, and his minister the Bukshy, used to dress his troops and principal attendants when that prince was also in a state of independence, or have you ever heard?—I never was at Surat, and do not know, nor have I ever heard.

Can you state how Raymond's force in the Nizam's service was dressed, previously to the dissolution of that corps in 1798?—The greatest part of that corps was, to the best of my recollection, dressed nearly in the same manner as any corps in the English service.

Do you know, or have you heard, whether a considerable part of the infantry in the services of the various Mahratta princes, were not also dressed in woollen uniforms, previous to the late Mahratta war?—I know they were, because I have seen several of the brigades in the army of Dowlut Rao Scindiah.

Can you state of what number those infantry consisted, or nearly so; did it consist of many thousands?—Certainly; those I have seen were probably in number seven or eight thousand men, and they were not above a fourth of the whole corps; but I cannot speak to any others being dressed in the manner described, from not having seen them.

Did any of the Mahratta chiefs, at the time you were in that part of the country, use British woollen cloth as mantles, or in any other shape or form, as winter dresses?—I do not recollect seeing them often dressed in woollens; they used generally to use it for their saddle cloths and floor cloths for their tents, but I do not believe that they had any objection to it, and no doubt many of the principal men in the Mahratta army might occasionally use it; but it was certainly not a general dress.

It was only used by the richer chiefs?—Only by the richer, quilted cottons and silks were a much more usual warm dress among the Mahratta chiefs and soldiers.

Do not the natives of eminence in India, both Hindoo and Mussulmen, use considerable quantities of broad-cloths in the housings of their elephants, camels, and horses?—They use it in the trammels and housings of their state elephants and state camels, not in those that are employed for burthen.

Have you ever been at Poonah on any great festival day, when the natives appeared abroad in great state?—I have been at Poonah several times, and I was on one occasion there on the Dessera feast, which is the festival at which the army at that city go out to plunder a field of grain, as a type of their national policy.

Is there not on those occasions a considerable display of woollen broad-cloth, particularly scarlet, used in the manner above described, by the natives?—I took no such particular notice at the period I have mentioned as would enable me to answer the question minutely; but I have no doubt they make a display of every showy article they possess on that occasion, and such they would consider scarlet cloth.

Be pleased to state how the Seiks, and the other northern nations of India, com- monly dress, or whether they use woollens, particularly among the richer orders?—There is very little difference in the dress of the Seik chiefs from those of the other Hindoo nations in India, and I do not think that woollens were (when I saw them) a very common article of dress, certainly not more so than amongst other classes of the natives of India.

Are not great quantities of iron, steel, copper, lead, and tin, now in common use among the natives of India of all casts?—Certainly, all these metals are in use amongst them; I have no means of stating in what quantity.

Is not the cut glass ware of England very much admired by the richer natives of India, and are not their houses occasionally furnished with chandeliers, lamps, mirrors, and other articles of European manufacture?—The richer natives of India, perhaps, admire our mirrors and cut glass more than any other article we possess; and I have observed at the principal cities, such as Hydrabad, Poonah, &c. that a few of the princes and the richest officers of the court, used to purchase enough of those articles to make what they term an innah khanah, or room of mirrors. The walls of this room are covered with mirrors, and it is hung round with chandeliers; but cut glass and mirrors certainly are not articles generally possessed, even by the richest, and are always considered as articles of great shew and luxury.

Were not those articles, when they were procured, considered as objects of luxurious gratification?—Certainly, they appeared to be desired only as objects of gratification and curiosity.

Are not watches, prints, pictures, carpeting, elegant fowling-pieces, pistols, and other articles of highly finished execution and workmanship, also deemed objects of luxurious gratification by the richer natives of India?—The richer natives of India generally desire a watch or watches; as to pictures, they have so little taste that they often prefer the daubs of China to the finest works of the artists of this country; but perhaps China pictures are also recommended by their comparatively low price; the carpets made in India, and those imported from Persia, are I believe generally preferred to the European manufacture; fowling pieces and pistols are desired by the principal chiefs; but with the exception of one or two princes, I have hardly ever known these articles purchas- ed, though all the military chiefs in India are desirous of obtaining them in presents.

Have not you, particularly during your residence at Bombay, seen several of the richer natives dressed in Irish linen, or Scotch and Manchester cambrics?—I am almost ashamed to confess, that I am so very bad a judge of such articles, that I could not distinguish very well between the manufactures of India and those of the cloths described in the question; but I have no doubt many of them did dress in them, if they were cheaper, and the fabric equal to those of their own cloths.

Do you recollect whether they used the printed cottons of this country frequently in furniture, and the lower classes in articles of dress and in turbans?—I have frequently seen the printed cottons of this country in articles of furniture at the houses of the superior Parsee merchants, which were fitted up like those of Europeans, and many of the lower classes (particularly those called Portuguese) were very fond when they could obtain it, of wearing a fine printed cotton jacket, but I do not think this was, as far as I have observed, a general wear; the Masulipatam printed chintzes, were I believe much cheaper, and were an article of very great consumption both at Bombay, the Persian Gulph, and other countries in that quarter of India.

Are you quite sure that they were cheaper than the printed chintzes of England?—I am almost positively certain of the fact; I carried great numbers of both European chintzes and Masulipatam with me in all my different missions to Persia, to give in presents to different people who rendered service to the mission, and also with the view of giving them patterns of the different manufactures of England and India; and I can recollect, that the common reward of any small service was a piece of Masulipatam chintz, while I am sure that I never gave a piece of English chintz to any man who had not a title, or who was not a person of some consideration: the Masulipatam chintz is an article of very general wear all over Persia, and there is a considerable trade carried on between that port and the gulph. I did not observe, when on the last mission to Persia, that there was a demand for European chintz as an article of trade, or that it had become a common wear, though every means had been taken by me ten years before to give the Persians a taste for it; and as it seemed to me much handsomer and of better quality than the Indian manufacture, I can only refer its not being in equal use to its bearing a higher price.

Be pleased to state, whether the richer natives at the different presidencies of India do not commonly drive European carriages?—Some of the richer natives at our principal settlements drive carriages made in the English style; some of which are from England, and others, particularly at Bengal, made at the settlement.

Do you recollect, when you were last at Bombay, a carriage driven by Pestangee, a Parsee?—I do; it was a very fine one.

Just before you left Bombay, did not Pestangee buy another carriage that had been built for one of the sheriffs of London, or adorned in that fashion?—I believe he did; Pestangee had a great number of carriages, in which he used to ride himself, and sometimes to accommodate his friends when they were in want; and I am grateful enough to acknowledge being one that has often received this accommodation from him.

Had not another rich merchant of the name of Dady Mooda, at this time, also a very elegant carriage?—He had; I have had the use of his carriage also, when in distress for a conveyance.

Had not Ornagee, another Parsee, a very rich carriage?—I have no doubt he had, probably more than one.

Were not the smaller carriages called gigs, in very common use among the natives of India?—They were very common, but very few of those were of European manufacture, the others were a coarser imitation of the European gigs.

During your residence at Bombay, had you an opportunity of visiting the island of Salsette?—I often visited the island of Salsette.

Be pleased to state your opinion of the condition of that island, and the inhabitants, generally?—The improvement of the island of Salsette has certainly been very gradual and slow; and it has perhaps been in some degree neglected; the most substantial improvement that I have known within my recollection, was that of forming a causeway which connected it with the island of Bombay; there is also a good road for sixteen miles, to Tanna; another road was, I understood, in progress when I left India, to a different part of the island; but the inhabitants, generally speaking, did not appear to me in a state of that prosperity which might have been expected from the vicinity of the island of Salsette to such a rich commercial settlement as Bombay; I am not, however, sufficiently master of this subject, to state either the causes that promoted the improvement it has received, or those that have retarded its attaining to a higher state of cultivation and prosperity.

Was it, not considered to be in a considerably worse state than what was generally understood to be the condition of the island under the Portuguese government?—I really have not that minute information which would enable me to answer that question in a manner satisfactory to the Committee: I cannot state a vague report upon such a subject.

During your residence at Bombay, did you ever visit the Mahratta district of Basseen?—I never did visit it: I have seen it from the opposite shore.

Did you not hear, during your residence I at Bombay, of the general state and condition of that district?—I have always heard it was in a very highly improved state of cultivation.

Are you aware of any reason, whether from soil, or climate, or geographical position, why Salsette should be in so inferior a state to that of the Mahratta district of Basseen?—Never having visited Basseen, I cannot draw a comparison; some parts of Salsette are very hilly and woody, and would, no doubt, require a considerable degree of labour to bring them into a state of high cultivation.

Is not Salsette generally, as far as you have observed, a very fertile soil?—I have seen some very fertile parts of it; but I am not sufficiently acquainted with the general nature of the soil to give a distinct answer to the question.

Have you heard that the causeway between the islands of Bombay and Salsette, alluded to by you, has had a prejudicial effect upon the harbour of Bombay, by interrupting the back tide, and lessening the depth of water in some places?—I have heard apprehensions stated, that such would be the effect; I have no information that enables me to say, whether it has had such effect, or not.

Are you acquainted with the manufacture of shawls in Cashmire, and the causes of their superior excellence?—I have, in the course of my investigation into the general history of India, translated what was considered as a very authentic memoir of Cashmire; and in that there is a chapter upon the mode in which the shawls are obtained, and what the natives of India deem the causes of their excellence; it is stated in that memoir, that the raw material is a wool, or I should rather say a down that lies protected by the coarse hair of a goat which is bred in the adjoining mountains of Thibet; this raw material, after being taken from the animal, is said to be made up in a small pack, which is put upon the back of the goat, and the animal is driven with his load into Cashmire, where it is manufactured. The inhabitants of that country are in the habit of attributing some part of the singular softness of the shawls to the virtues of one of the rivers in Cashmire, in which the wool is dipped; but this is evidently an idle story, of the same character as that which informs us that the only good porter is made from Thames water. It appears, however, certain, from all the information I have been able to obtain on the subject, that neither the former kings of Delhi (who are stated to have made several attempts to introduce the breed of this Cashmire goat into the upper provinces of India), nor the kings of Persia, have ever been able to succeed; a goat which I have seen, and which I am told somewhat resembles that of Cashmire, is found in the country of Kerman in Persia; and from its wool or down a shawl is manufactured, which, though very handsome, and sometimes comparatively fine, has never been equal to the Cashmire shawl; and it is a received opinion among the inhabitants of India and Persia, that that manufacture can never be rivalled in any other part of the world.

From your knowledge of British and Cashmire shawls, do you suppose there is any probability of the British rivalling the Cashmire shawls in the Indian market?—From all I have ever heard or seen upon the subject, I should suppose there was no probability whatever, as I never saw an English shawl that at all approached to the excellence of that manufacture, and as far as I was able to judge, the Persian shawl made from the wool of Kerman came nearer the Cashmire shawl than the English; and it may be judged how far inferior the Persian shawl is considered by the inhabitants of that country itself, when the king of Persia has found it necessary, with a view of encouraging the manufactures of his own country, to issue, within the last ten years, an edict prohibiting the use of Cashmire shawls to any persons in his dominions, except those of a certain rank, and who shall have the royal licence for wearing them.

What would be the penalty upon an individual who was caught in an endeavour to avoid that prohibition?—He would either be bastinadoed, have his eyes put out, or his head cut off; it is impossible for me to say which of those three punishments would be inflicted.

What do you think would be the consequence of permitting British merchants to proceed to India under any licence except that of the East India Company?—I consider, that one of the greatest difficulties in the administration of our Indian government, arises out of the existing distinctions between the different classes of Europeans which its present constitution obliges us to have in that country. I allude to the distinctions which exist in the European part of the army in India, and those between the political government and the supreme courts of justice. These distinctions, however necessary, have been found liable to a collision which requires all the care and caution of the political government, and all the temper and talents of those who preside over the other departments, to prevent having a very injurious operation on the whole frame of our power; for when they come in collision, they exhibit a want of union, and a jarring in our system that is interpreted by our native subjects into weakness, and consequently makes a dangerous impression on their minds. From this view of the subject, I should consider, that permitting any body of men to reside in India, who were not nominally, as well as virtually, subject to the exclusive authority of the Indian government, would be adding another class to the divisions we already have of Europeans in that country, and one which I conceive, from its unconnected form, and, if I may use the term, undisciplined character, that would come in more frequent collision with the ruling government, than any of the classes I before noticed.

Is there not a great difficulty at present in governing the Europeans in India as well as governing the natives?—There is, I conceive, an equal, if not a greater, difficulty in well governing the Europeans in India than the natives.

In the event of the difficulty of governing the Europeans in India increasing, would, in your opinion, the difficulty of governing the natives increase also?—No doubt; those causes are so intimately blended, that it is impossible to separate their effects.

Can you form an opinion what effects the separation of commercial concerns from those hands in which the sovereign power may be vested would have on the interests of the British empire in India?—I can only generally state in answer to that question, that, in whatever hands the sovereignty of India is placed, I conceive it will always be essential that such should have a direct, efficient, and competent controul over every branch and department of the state; and that every means which shall increase its controul and authority over those by whom the commerce with India is carried on, must be beneficial to the welfare of the state. I do not consider myself as competent to judge on the lesser parts of this question; or to decide in what exact proportion, or in what manner the commerce between the two countries should be carried on.

Are you of opinion, that considering the odium at present attending the removal, by the magistrates at the out-stations, of British subjects residing there by licence from the Company, the regulations at present existing upon that subject would not be materially improved and more easily put in force, if any violation or evasion of the existing regulations by British subjects who may go there under parliamentary enactment, were ipso facto followed by their being sent out of India, subject to the remission of that punishment by the supreme government?—I am of opinion, from what I have observed, that the power vested in the local governments of India of sending a British subject to Europe, and that given to a magistrate sending him away from a district, is much seldomer exercised than it should be. It is quite impossible that any person educated in England, and whose breast is filled with the principles of British freedom, can dismiss those from his mind, so far as to exercise, without feelings of great compunction, very absolute power, however necessary such may be on the grounds of general policy. I have had occasion to remark in numerous instances, the extreme reluctance with which this essential power was exercised; and I do conceive that a regulation, which made it the positive duty of any magistrate (leaving nothing to his discretion) to send out of his district any European settled in it, upon the commission of a transgression against the regulations, and which placed the power of remitting such banishment from the district in the government only, would be very salutary, both as it prevented any odium attaching to the magistrate, and as it compelled him to attend, on all occasions, to the law and not to his own personal feelings.

Can any judgment of the habits, characters, and inclinations of the natives in the interior of India, be formed from the disposition, character, and inclinations of the population of Bombay?—Besides the settled population of Bombay, travellers and merchants from every Asiatic country, resort to that port; and no doubt, a person disposed to acquire such information, may obtain it, as far as it can be obtained from a communication with the individual natives of those countries.

Do not you imagine, from the habits, pursuits, and mariners of life of this population of Bombay, which consists of so many various descriptions of merchants, almost all in pursuit of gain, must be most materially different from the character of the natives in the interior, not so employed?—I have stated before, that there is a great difference between the character and habits in society of the natives of our principal settlements (of which Bombay is one) and those of the interior; and I conceive, that a person who has only resided at Bombay, cannot have a minute knowledge and information respecting the habits and manners of the natives in the interior provinces of India. Are the articles in metal in use amongst the natives almost universally manufactured by the natives from the native materials?—A very great proportion of the metals manufactured by the natives themselves for domestic purposes are obtained either in India or from the Turkish dominions; I allude particularly to iron and steel, which are found in many parts of India: the latter in great quantities in the Mysore country; and copper, which is brought in considerable quantities down the gulph of Persia from the mines of Diarbekir; and tin is, I believe, imported from the island of Banca in the Eastern seas.

Is that iron and that tin, so imported into India, to be had at a much lower price than the same articles brought from Europe?—I cannot answer this question from minute information; but I must suppose, that as great quantities of those metals are imported from Europe, the importation from the Persian gulph and other places would cease, if it was not from its being cheaper, or of a superior quality.

Is the building of carriages in the European style as yet established at Bombay?—They as yet build very badly at Bombay; they build very well at Madras; but as I have, in my former evidence, stated, the manufacture of carriages at Bengal is, as far as I am a judge, equal to those made in England.

May 10th.

MARTIN LINDSAY, esq. was called in, and examined:

—You commanded a ship in the Company's service, did you not?—I did.

How many voyages may you have made to India, either as commander or officer?—Five altogether; twice to Bengal, and three times to China.

Have you had occasion to be at any other ports belonging to the Company, either the ports of India or in the eastern seas?—At Madras, in the way to China, and likewise in the way to Bengal; and one of the voyages I went what is called the eastern passage to China.

Had you occasion, during that voyage, to touch at any of the Eastern Islands?—Yes, I had; I went through one of the passages into the China seas.

Which of the islands did you visit in that passage?—In going through the straits of Alias, at the island of Lombock.

What were the principal articles you used to take to India?—A variety of articles; some of what are called the staple articles, and a variety of other articles, such as were commonly used by Europeans.

What articles did you take with a view-to the native consumption?—Some glass ware.

Of what description?—Window glass, and some articles of table glass, tumblers and decanters, and shades; glass of various descriptions. The last voyage I made was in 1796, a voyage to China.

Are you able to say how far the more recent voyages have been successful as to their export articles?—Judging from the business which I have had to do for some captains and officers, since I myself left the sea, I am led to think they have not been very successful.

Have the more recent voyages, with, which you have been acquainted, been successful as to their export articles?—Judging from the accounts that I have had, I should say their profits were extremely moderate. What they carried out did not meet with a ready sale, and therefore they were obliged to sell it at a very moderate profit.

Do you happen to know whether, for several years past, there has been a very full market, and rather a glutted market of European articles than otherwise?—I have reason to believe there has.

From your acquaintance with India and the natives, can you form an opinion whether, in case of an open trade, there would be any probability of a greater export than has hitherto taken place of British manufactures or European articles for the consumption of the natives of India?—I have no doubt there would be a considerable exportation; but I do not think it would meet with a successful market.

State your reasons for that opinion?—From the articles that have been lately taken out by commanders and officers not meeting with a good market.

Is it your opinion, that the present system of commerce to India, has even more than fully supplied all the wants of that part of the world?—I should think it has fully supplied them, allowing any fair profit to the exporter.

You of course remember the exports to India being of a more successful description than they have been for some years past?—They were formerly, during the first period of my going to India.

From about what period has the export trade to India in British manufactures or European articles ceased, generally speaking, to be a successful speculation?—I think it has been a less successful one since the facility which has been given to the general merchant to send out in the Company's ships.

Do you mean that the facility so afforded, occasioned an export of European articles beyond the demand for them?—Fully equal, or rather more, keeping in view as a merchant, having a fair profit.

Among those with whom you have been acquainted or concerned, have any of them made losing voyages of it, as to the exporting part?—Yes, they have.

Looking to your acquaintance with the commanders and officers, has that been a frequent or a rare occurrence, that they should have lost by their export adventure?—It has not been frequent.

For some years past, are you to be understood to say, that where they have got any profit at all, it has been a less profit than you consider as a fair and sufficient profit to induce such an adventure?—I think that they would not begin a concern of that nature, though they are from their situation in life obliged to carry it on, having entered upon that line of life.

In those cases they look materially to the homeward investments, do they not?—Considerably; particularly China ships.

The captains and officers of the Company's ships are educated for that express purpose, are they not?—They are obliged to be a certain number of voyages in various situations, in order to enable them to get the command of a ship.

How many voyages must they go before they can be commanders?—Four voyages before they are eligible to the command of a regular ship.

Before being chief officer of them?—Three voyages.

Supposing, from so material a change of system as an open trade, the Indian trade should be conducted by other persons from the outports, would the commanders and officers of the Company have the means of easily resorting to other professions, or do you think they would be thrown out of employment?—No doubt they would suffer very materially from the competition that must come in against them.

You have stated, that you think the export trade to India has ceased to be advantageous since the increased facilities which were given by the Company; be pleased to state how those increased facilities have operated, so as to produce that effect?—By enabling them to send out a quantity of goods of various descriptions.

Did you attempt to make any sales in your passage, at either of the islands in the eastern seas?—In the last voyage I made to China, knowing I should go the eastern passage, sailing late from this country, I took out three or four articles which I supposed were most likely to meet with a sale in the eastern islands.

Name those articles?—Cutlery of different descriptions, and pulicat handkerchiefs made at Manchester; the red and blue check handkerchiefs, in imitation of the Madras pulicat handkerchiefs.

Any other British manufactures?—Some remnants of cloth; I do not recollect any others particularly.

Was the quantity considerable?—No, it was a few hundred pounds worth only.

Did you dispose of those easily and successfully?—No, I did not.

State the result of that adventure?—The cutlery I disposed of a small quantity for supplies or ships provisions; the handkerchiefs I disposed of a very small quantity; I was obliged to bring the greatest part of them back again, not being able to dispose of them at all, not even in the way of barter for provisions.

Did you try the Indian articles of the same kind there?—I had not any; it was in my way from Europe, and it was the first place I touched at from Europe.

You did not dispose of all the cutlery?—No, I did not.

What did you do with it?—I brought some home, some little was disposed of in China, and some little at St. Helena.

Do you remember the amount in value of cutlery?—About 120l. or 130l. and about 2 or 300l. worth of handkerchiefs in imitation of the Indian.

Did you endeavour to get money for those articles?—Money they had very little of, therefore I had no chance whatever; I endeavoured to dispose of them in the way of barter, buying cattle and vegetables and fruits for the use of the ship; I saw very little money.

What articles could they have furnished you, supposing they had been disposed to have bought your European articles, with what articles could they have paid you besides provisions for your ship?—Upon that particular island, they had very little, but on some of the adjoining islands I could have got rattans and betle-nut to have carried on to China.

The articles of barter, if you had bartered them, were such as would have suited the China trade?—Yes, the rattans and betle-nut would have suited the China market; but the island of Lombock is a very small one.

They would not have done to have brought to England?—Not at all.

Supposing you could have bartered in those seas to a greater amount, it would not have consisted of such articles as you could have brought by way of return cargo to England?—No, it would not from that island. Upon some of the eastern islands there are articles, such as mother-of-pearl shells and tortoise shell, that might have been brought to Europe as an article of trade, but in a very limited degree.

Would such articles be very limited in their degree, and very uncertain as to their success?—Very limited in their degree.

Supposing that every subject in every part of the United Kingdom had access with his vessels to those seas, and that the obtaining of tea were his object, do you apprehend that he would find the means, by proper arrangements, of getting as much tea as he might require, for the purposes of his speculation in those seas, without going to Canton?—I should imagine by a previous arrangement having been made, that the tea might be brought to various islands in the eastern seas, either by China junks, or by American ships, or by country ships.

What do you mean by country ships?—Ships that have gone from other ports in India to China, and probably if there was an arrangement made, they might bring teas to those islands, and take a return of rattans and betle-nut.

Looking to your own experience and the knowledge you have had as an agent, do you think it probable that any successful export of British manufactures could take place, at all material as to its extent, to the islands of the eastern seas?—Of British manufactures, I should think not.

Do you entertain the least doubt of its being utterly improbable that it should?—I have not.

Have you the least doubt of every commander being able, by proper arrangement, to obtain as much tea as he might wish to have in those seas?—I should suppose, by a proper arrangement, he might get it.

Without going to Canton?—Yes, with previous arrangement.

Must not every ship homeward bound from India be of necessity loaded with an assorted cargo of measurable or light goods, together with a certain dead weight for the purposes of ballast?—Almost all the ships that have yet gone, from their construction, require some dead weight to ballast them.

Would that dead weight generally consist of rice, sugar, or saltpetre?—Sugar I should imagine was the most likely article; rice I should imagine must be a very hazardous speculation; and saltpetre, I believe, is not permitted; of course sugar becomes the only article; if saltpetre was allowed, no doubt they would take it.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Do you know, from Information which satisfies you, how far most of the different trades for the supply of European articles of furniture, such as coach-makers, cabinet makers, upholsterers, workers in metals, taylors, shoemakers, and workers in glass, are established there?—I have understood there are in Calcutta, particularly, artificers of almost every description, manufacturers of furniture of different descriptions, very good shoes and boots, and almost every article in leather, and certainly of tailors there are abundance, also manufacturers of various articles in iron and steel, gold and silver; they make a great deal of the iron work necessary for shipping.

At present is there any establishment of revenue officers in the eastern islands, or any method for securing the revenue by manifests and clearances, and preventing any illicit trade in tea?—I do not know of any.

To make such establishments, would it not require in those islands very great exertion and great expence, and would it not be exposed to great risk?—I should imagine, if it is intended to prevent smuggling, it would require great numbers of vessels of various descriptions to prevent smuggling there, and illicit intercourse between ships.

Would it not be necessary, in order to ensure the probability of prevention of smuggling, by those vessels bringing home manifests and clearances, that there should be a revenue establishment upon the islands?—I should imagine both would be necessary to prevent an illicit trade.

What, in your opinion, would be the effect upon the China market for teas in the event of that trade being opened?—I should imagine that the teas in China would be increased in price from the great number of ships, and the greater demand for them, from the increased competition.

Are not you also of opinion, from the peculiar character of the Chinese, that the quality of teas would be adulterated?—I think that is very probable, as a number of what are called out-door merchants in China, would have a great deal of the trade to execute.

Do not the English East India Company get the choice of the teas now brought to Canton from the upper provinces?—I believe they do.

Is not the refuse sold to the Americans?—The best part being bought by the Company, the rest most be sold to the Americans, or any other ships that may be there to take it off.

Is there not a description of teas called the old teas, of the former season, brought down in considerable quantities, and which are always rejected by the Company?—I imagine whatever tea is bad, whether of that season or the season before, will be rejected by the Company's officer; they have a person there to examine and to taste the teas.

Has not the price of all articles of supply to the ships in Canton increased within the last ten years, nearly double?—I should think not double; it has increased from a greater number of ships of different nations having been at Canton, particularly the English.

In the course of your experience or knowledge, have any new articles of British manufacture been introduced with success to the consumption of the natives of India?—No, I do not recollect any.

Are you aware of the great increase of export to India of cotton goods, both printed and plain, within the last ten years?—I think there has been an increase of printed cotton goods within these last ten years; I understand a great deal of the printed cotton is for the Portuguese and others; not so much for the natives as for the Portuguese in various parts of India.

Have you not heard of the Hindoos using them as turbans?—I have understood that they have used some printed cottons for turbans.

In your capacity of agent, exporting the printed cottons you speak of, have you ever exported any to the other parts of India, except Bombay? — As far as I recollect the investments of the captains I have been intrusted for, they have taken some to every part of India.

Have you reason to think that they have exported to such advantage as to encourage an increase An the export of them?—The quantity was in a very small degree, and I believe the advantage arising from them was pretty nearly equal to the other articles, not particularly profitable, nor otherwise.

Are not the people commonly called Portuguese, alluded to in your former answer, natives of India?—They are so far natives, that they are born there, though not the aborigines.

Do you know the number of that population, or have you ever heard it?—It is considerable, I believe, though I would not venture to specify any number.

Do you consider the cotton goods mentioned in your former answer, to be a new article of trade in India, compared with the use or the demand for those goods for- merly in that part of the world?—I believe it is not altogether new, but the quantity exported of late has increased probably in some part of India; they have got them where they had not them some years ago; from the increased quantity sent out, they must have spread abroad.

Do you understand the quantity to have increased considerably?—Not very considerably, probably it has been more than double.

THOMAS GARLAND MURRAY, esq. was called in, and examined:

—Are you not commander of a ship in the East India Company's service?—I am; I have been in the marine service of the Company between six and seven and twenty years.—I have made either ten or eleven voyages to India and China.

Have you been in the habit of availing yourself of the privilege which the Company grant to their marine officers, of exporting goods on their own account, freight free?—As much so as other persons in my situation, I believe.

What proportion of the investment which you laid in consisted of such articles as were, in your understanding, adapted to the consumption of the natives of India?—It depended entirely upon the latest information I had of such articles being wanted, or what I conceived they would be likely to want, from the situation of the market during the time when I was there last.

In general, you have found that their demand for European articles has been extensive?—Very trifling indeed, when compared to the demand of the settlers there.

Of what description of European produce and manufactures were those articles which you conceive to be adapted to the consumption of the natives?—Of the manufactures of this country, and the continent, (such as Germany and Holland;) the produce of Birmingham and Sheffield, of this country, being chiefly cutlery and small quantities of hardware; toys, spectacles, and beads, of Germany and Holland; and the general produce of Europe, such as quicksilver, saffron, and cochineal, as coming from Europe, being brought from the peninsula.

Would not you include cutlery and hardware in the list of the articles mentioned?—I meant that, when I mentioned Birmingham and Sheffield, particularly, and not the whole produce of Birmingham and Sheffield.

During your experience in the marine service of the Company, have you found the native demand for European manufactures to increase in any material degree?—As far as it has affected myself, on the contrary; it is a thing I have never been able to account for to myself, nor has any reason been given by those people of whom I have inquired, that since the fall of Seringapatam, our investments at Madras have never met so ready nor so profitable a sale.

From your general acquaintance with the export trade, as carried on by the marine officers of the Company, is there, in your judgment, a growing demand on the part of the natives of India for British or European manufactures?—Speaking from my own immediate experience, and from what I have suffered, I think not.

Do you conceive that the marine officers of the Company have used every exertion to promote, as far as in them lay, the consumption of British manufactures in India?—I conceive that there are not a more enterprising body of men than those who are permitted to participate of the privileges of the Company on board the Indiamen.

In your judgment, is it not a great advantage to the class of persons mentioned in your last answer, to export free from the charges of freight and commission?—I imagine, that inasmuch as they are encouraged to speculate now, from being free of freight, their speculations would be greatly reduced if they were obliged to pay freight.

Do you mean to imply, that the immunity from the charges of freight and commission has encouraged the officers in the marine service of the Company to export manufactures to a greater extent than they would have otherwise exported?—I think, that inasmuch as the freight affects the advantages attending whatever may be carried out, insomuch it would reduce the encouragement to speculation.

Is it your opinion that any private trader could export goods to India in such a manner as to sustain a competition with the marine officers of the Company?—I think quite impossible, from experience.

Is it your judgment, that any such increase is likely to take place in the native demand for British produce or manufactures, as may not be fully met by the exist- ing system?—I think it is in the power of those immediately employed in the marine service, to take out a great deal more than they do at the present moment, if they found there would be a likelihood of great profit arising from it.

Describe shortly in what manner the marine officers of the Company are trained to the service in which they are engaged?—By the regulations which existed when I entered the service, I was obliged to perform one or two voyages in the situation of a midshipman or a junior officer; one a fourth, one a third, and one a second or a chief officer, before I was qualified for the command.

Do you consider that species of training as necessary to the due discharge of the functions with which the commanders in the marine service of the Company are invested?—I think it absolutely necessary, to take charge of so valuable a property, that a man should have great and long experience, together with the advance of age that that period of service I mentioned would bring him to, before he should be invested with the command of an Indiaman.

If a free trade were established between every port in the United Kingdom and every port in the British dominions in India, what effect would be produced on the marine officers in the service of the East India Company?—I do not feel a conviction that it would amount to their total ruin, but it would be attended with very great hardships.

Were the sugars of Bengal allowed a fair competition with West India sugars in the markets of this country, do not you conceive that it would sustain that competition with great hopes of success?—There cannot be a question, but, inasmuch as the sugar from India is brought to this country, it will, in that degree, have a great effect upon the produce of the West India colonies.

Could not the sugar of Bengal be brought to the markets of this country as cheaply as West India sugar, provided the duties on both be equalized?—At the present moment, I believe, the produce of sugar in India is very much confined, but that it is capable of producing as much as the whole continent of Europe would require I cannot doubt, and if it can be brought here as cheaply in point of freight, and the duties are equalized, I have no doubt that it would have a very serious effect upon West India produce.

Supposing sugar were brought from India as dead weight, might it not, in that case, profitably enter the markets of this country, supposing it to be placed on an equal footing, in point of duties, with the sugars of the West Indies?—It would affect it unquestionably, inasmuch as it would increase the quantity of sugar in the market.

Would it not come as cheaply as West Indian sugar, coming as dead weight?—It would depend entirely upon the freight of the ship, what she was freighted at; if it was necessary to bring sugar as dead weight to ballast the ship, it would most seriously affect the produce of the West Indies, inasmuch as it would greatly increase the quantity of sugar in the market.

In a China voyage outwards, by what straits do you enter the Archipelago?—That depends entirely upon seasons and other circumstances; the general passage in the regular season, and the fleet in force (a strong fleet well protected) is through either the Straits of Sunda or the Straits of Malacca.

What is the way homewards, do you come through the same straits?—Generally, when a fleet is in force, and in the regular season, through the Straits of Sunda, that is the most direct passage.

You have mentioned that they go and return by these routes when the fleet is in force, what difference does that circumstance make as to the course adopted?—In going through the Straits of Sunda, for instance, you pass immediately in sight of an enemy's possession; and in going through the Straits of Malacca, it has frequently happened during this war, that the enemy's cruisers have been off Acheen head.

Have you ever landed on any of the islands of the eastern Archipelago?—If you admit Sumatra to be considered as one of those islands, I was six weeks at Bencoolen, and brought home a cargo from thence, since I was a commander. I was before that about fourteen days upon the island of Sumbawa.

That is to the eastward of Java?—Yes; going to China, it forms one of the most eastern straits, the Straits of Sapy.

Had you an opportunity of observing the native inhabitants of those islands?—At Bencoolen, I formed some idea of what their inclinations and habits were; at the Straits of Sapy, I was under too great a dread to have much communication with them.

What were the circumstances which rendered it so fearful a business to have communication with the natives of Sumbawa?—I know no reason, but a knowledge of their native treachery, and which appeared to be natural to them.

From any knowledge or authentic information which you have acquired, can you say whether that is generally the character of the native population of the eastern islands?—I believe universally.

Do you conceive that any considerable number of cargoes of British or other European produce would find a market among the natives of the eastern islands?—As far as my own knowledge goes, and what I have heard from the description of people called eastern traders, I apprehend not; not even one cargo.

Are not the wants of the natives very much limited by the nature of the climate under which they live?—I conceive their wants to be very few, from the very few articles that the regular eastern traders from Calcutta carry among those islands, speaking only from information, for I have no experience, also judging from what I experienced myself while at Bencoolen.

During your residence at Bencoolen, did you find that the native inhabitants in the neighbourhood of the British settlement there, copied in any material degree European habits and manners?—None whatever came under my observation from actual natives.

From the treacherous and ferocious character of the natives of those islands in general, would it not be necessary that vessels, attempting to trade with them, should be strongly armed?—The eastern toad-erg are armed, I believe, in a very peculiar way, to prevent surprise from numbers, as well as treachery from the merchants with whom they deal; and I have been told, that immediately on any native or natives coming on beard, their side-arms and all other weapons of defence are taken from them; they are also supplied with strong boarding nettings; and I believe, I do not know whether it is so now, but it was certainly at some period necessary that their cabins should be barricadoed, so that they might defend themselves, if they were driven to that place, from the number of natives coming on board, either by surprise or by permission.

Supposing a free trade established between the ports of the United Kingdom and the eastern seas, do you conceive that the export on a large scale of British ma- nufactures to those seas, would prove a profitable speculation?—As far as my own experience goes, I think not.

Do the Malays wear cotton in any degree?—They wear chiefly cotton, but they have a manufacture of their own of silk and cotton, they wear no other apparel that ever I observed.

On a supposition that a free trade were established between the ports of the united Kingdom and the eastern seas in general, except with the reservation of the China trade to the Company, is it your judgment that the vessels of private British traders could procure illicit shipments of tea on the coast of the Eastern Islands?—I have not a doubt that there would be great facility in their procuring tea, and I would beg leave to state why; the great reason, I believe, that there are not more ships and more people embarked in the China trade, either from the coast of Malabar or Calcutta, is the difficulty of return, and that their ships frequently come back half laden; I daresay, therefore, they would be very glad to take on board a cargo of tea, and carry it any where that may be pointed out, if it were only as a remittance from China.

Must it not be the wish of the Chinese government, that teas of all descriptions should be exported from the port of Canton?—I have always understood that a Chinaman, to get rid of his teas, would trade with any one, and give him almost unlimited credit.

Supposing an arrangement made, by which teas imported from China into some of the Eastern islands, could be there taken in by private British vessels, can you state whether it would be easy to procure such teas from China by means of Chinese junks or other native vessels?—I cannot take upon myself to answer that question; I have already said that there is a very extensive intercourse from China, through junks, with the island of Java, and I believe with those junks and Malay boats, with islands in the west; and the China junks go also to the other islands in the Archipelago.

Supposing an open trade established, such as has been before described, would it not be easy for the captains of vessels to procure, by a previous arrangement, any quantity of tea, without going to the port of Canton?—I should conceive so, for the reasons I have already given, independent of the Chinese junks.

Supposing an arrangement made, by which European vessels would take in teas on the coast of the Eastern Islands, could not temporary depots, for that purpose, be very easily established on those coasts?—The only objection to that would be the treachery of the Malays, and the likelihood of being cut off by them; there is no other objection, I conceive.

Would the treachery of the natives be en insurmountable obstacle to the sort of clandestine trade of which you have before spoken?—Certainly not; if it was an object worthy of attention, the factory or establishment to be formed, could be strong enough to resist the Malays.

Are there not several inconsiderable islands of which the inhabitants are much more peaceable than those of Celebes or Borneo?—There are some islands or some places on the islands, where there is more confidence put in the Malays than there can be in others; they are not so suspiciously treated in some of the islands as they are in others.

Would it be practicable for the British government to establish any such fiscal guards on the coasts of those islands, as should prevent the illicit practices of which you have before spoken?—They must be very extensive, and very numerous; and, in the time of war, I should conceive it would be very much subjected, to the depredations of the enemy's cruisers.

Supposing a regulation made, that ships taking in cargoes any where in the Indian seas, should, on their passage homeward, touch at some intermediate port, and have their cargoes officially broken up and inspected, could such a regulation be carried into effect without immense inconvenience to commerce?—I think it would be excessively prejudicial, and very destructive to a China cargo; for it is invariably found, that a chest of tea, as it is at present constructed, would hardly bear moving after it is stowed.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Are you of opinion, that any quantity of teas could be taken on board in China by a country ship, without the knowledge of the supracargoes, under proper regulations to prevent their being shipped?—Speaking from the knowledge I have of the Chinese, I conceive them to be more inclined to smuggling than any other set of men; but how far it can be done without the knowledge of the supracargoes, I am quite unequal to answering.

Are you of opinion, that teas could be landed from country ships at any port, either upon the coast of Coromandel or Malabar, and re-shipped on private ships bound to this country, without its coming to the knowledge of the government of India?—I presume, that in the event of peace, the situations on the coast of Coromandel, belonging to both the Dutch, French, and Danes, would be returned to them; and in that case, I think it possible that there might be trans-shipments made in those roads without their coming to the knowledge of the English government; yet the possibility of information being given to the English government must be very great.

Do you suppose that any large quantity of tea could be taken on board and conveyed to this country, without the knowledge of the captain?—It depends entirely upon what description of man the captain may be, and how far people may be intrusted who are inclined to take it on board; that there are a great many things taken on board ships, in large quantities, which the captain knows nothing of, I am perfectly convinced.

If the trade of India were confined as at present, and the subjects and states at amity with his Majesty permitted to trade there, might not the merchants of those foreign states find profitable cargoes of sugar in India for the supply of Europe?—I think that, at all times, sugar enough might be made in India to supply all demand for any foreign markets.

JAMES HORSBURGH, esq. was called in, and examined;

—You are hydrographer to the East India Company?—I am.

Were you a free mariner in India under a licence from the Company?—Yes, I was, for about 20 years in India.

From your observation, when you were in India, do you think the markets there were over or understocked with European commodities?—I believe frequently overstocked.

Can you state any new articles of European produce or manufactures that came into demand among the natives of India during the time you were there?—I cannot.

Supposing a free trade were opened between the ports of this country, and the ports within the Company's charter, do you, from your knowledge from India, think there would be any increase of demand for European produce among the natives there?—I really cannot tell.

What is your opinion; have you any reason to think there will be?—I think there must be a great sacrifice from this country, in the first instance.

Are you acquainted with the eastern seas and islands?—I am.

Do you believe that those seas and islands, and the ports of them, have been thoroughly explored by the merchants who now carry on the trade between India and the Chinese seas?—Yes, they have.

State who are the persons by whom that trade is carried on, the trade which is called the country trade; is it not carried on by persons called free merchants and mariners, and who reside in India?—Yes, it is.

Has it come within your knowledge, that those free merchants and mariners have explored every port in those seas, for the purpose of commerce?—Yes, it has.

Can you state what articles of British produce or manufactures are consumed in those islands?—Very little, I believe.—A few articles of cutlery, probably a little iron and fire arms, and gunpowder, are the principal articles.

What is the assortment of cargoes sent from India to those islands?—Opium is the great staple article; some iron, saltpetre, and sulphur sometimes, and piece-goods, cotton stuffs of various colours.

In your opinion, could even a single ship be freighted from Europe for those islands, with any reasonable prospect of commercial profit?—I think a single ship could not sell her cargo among those islands, without going to Batavia, or to Prince of Wales's island.

What is the dress of the natives?—Very little, if any thing at all; without it is the rajahs and chiefs; they wear pelisses of different kinds; but the lower class of people wear very little dress; a small wrapper of cotton about them, and a bit of silk handkerchief for a turban.

Is their dress supplied from their own manufacture chiefly?—In great part.

Do you conceive it is possible to dispose of English woollens to any amount among them?—No; I think not.

Can you state to the Committee what is the character of those natives, with respect to the ferocity or mildness of their dispositions?—They are very cruel and treacherous, and would take any man's life for the sake of a dollar or two, at any time when there was an opportunity.

Are the rajahs, who are the chieftains of those islands, very jealous and suspicious of Europeans?—Yes, of Europeans trading with them.

Have many instances come to your knowledge of ships that have been cut off and destroyed among those islands?—A great number; I have got a list of nearly thirty in my pocket of the ships I have known cut off at different times.

Do you know that captains also have been assassinated by the natives of those islands?—A great number.

Are there any return cargoes that could be got among those islands for Europe?—I conceive little or nothing that would answer in the European market.

Supposing ships to go from this country with a view to profit by illicit traffic, is it your opinion, that if they were permitted to go into the eastern seas, they could procure teas there for the purpose of smuggling?—I think not for some time.

Did you think that if they had a view to that purpose, they might in some time enter into such arrangements that they could procure teas?—Yes, I think so.

Do not many large junks come among the eastern islands, from the port of Amoy, in the southern part of China?—They go from Canton and from Amoy, to different ports of the eastern islands.

The English have no intercourse or connection with the port of Amoy, have they?—Not at present.

Do not many junks go from China to Borneo?—To Borneo, and to Sooloo, to Mindano; I believe also to Timor; particularly to Batavia, and to Rhio and Lin-gin, and to Prince of Wales's Island.

Could not those junks, in your opinion, bring any quantities of tea to the eastern islands?—They carry a good deal of tea to Batavia at present, and to some ports of the eastern islands.

Could they not procure them and carry them in any quantities that might be demanded?—Certainly.

Are you of opinion that, by previous arrangement, depots of tea might be established through those junks among the eastern islands, for the purpose of smuggling?—I think so.

Do you think such smuggling of tea might be carried on by means of Portuguese or Spanish vessels, by previous arrangements?—I think they could.

Supposing the private merchants of this country were permitted to go to Manilla, do you think there is any more convenient port for procuring teas from China, and smuggling them into this country, than the port of Manilla?—I think not.

Is not Manilla so situated that a regular communication may be kept up between that and China, at almost any period of the year?—At all times.

If the Chinese trade were thrown open to the private merchants of this country, is it not your opinion that the Company's supracargoes would be put to the utmost difficulties by the irregularities and promiscuous influx of seamen, that would then go to the port of Canton?—I think so, unless there was some other method to regulate their conduct.

Do you know that the island of Banca produces tin of a very fine quality, and in very great quantities?—I understand it does not produce so much now as it did formerly.

Do you mean that so much is not exported from it, or that there is any defect in the produce of the country?—There is not so much procured, I understand.

Have you understood that tin is extremely easily procured in that country, and very easily smelted?—Yes; I understand so, it is near the surface of the ground what they procure, in small pits; it is of a very soft quality, easily smelted.

Have you understood, that during the time that the Dutch power prevailed in that part of India, the Chinese were in a very considerable degree supplied with tin by the Dutch from the island of Banca?—Yes; I believe they were.

Do they not manufacture their cresses, which are offensive weapons, and other iron utensils and arms, from their own iron?—They temper their own cresses themselves, and manufacture them; whether all from their own iron, I cannot say.

Sir GEORGE THOMAS STAUNTON, baronet, was called in, and examined as follows:

—You are a supracargo in the East India Company's service:—Yes, I am. I have been fifteen years in the service of the East India Company.

You accompanied lord Macartney's embassy to Pekin?—I did.

You are also acquainted with the language of the Chinese?—I have made the Chinese language my study.

From being acquainted with the language of the Chinese, and from the time you have been in that country, have you had peculiar opportunities of becoming acquainted with the character, the opinions, and the habits of the Chinese?—I should conceive a knowledge of the language would possibly give me some advantage over other Europeans in those respects.

Have you also, from the situation you held in the Company's service, obtained a competent knowledge of the Chinese trade?—I consider my situation as giving me an opportunity of having a general knowledge of the commerce of China.

From your knowledge of China, can you state to the Committee, whether they are not peculiarly jealous and suspicious of strangers of all descriptions?—I should consider that the Chinese are peculiarly jealous and suspicious of strangers.

Can you state to the Committee any principle of government or subordination entertained generally by the Chinese nation, that renders them peculiarly adverse to casual and unconnected trading adventurers?—The principle of responsibility that is exacted in China from every person in office, and the controul which is required to be exercised by them, would certainly lead them to be peculiarly adverse to any trade that was not under an efficient controul.

Do you conceive that that principle has been one great cause, why in former times the Chinese have been adverse to commerce with foreigners?—I should conceive that has been the principal, or one of the principal causes of their unfavourable opinion of strangers, and their unwillingness to enter into commercial connections with them.

Can you state to the Committee) from your knowledge of the history of the trade of China, what have been the impediments thrown in the way of foreign trade in that country, in former times, in consequence of that principle?—The trade has been confined to one port of the Chinese empire, and is limited to a certain number of native Chinese, called Hong merchants; the Europeans are allowed to reside at that port only while their ships remain there, and various other restrictions were imposed to prevent any ill consequences arising from the trade with foreigners.

Was not the residence of foreigners confined to a small district in the suburbs of Canton?—It was.

Were not all foreign ships disarmed upon their arrival, and their arras restored at their departure?—There was an order to that effect, and I have understood it has been put in force on some occasions. Was not all intercourse between fo- reigners and the Chinese strictly prohibited, with the exception of those Hong merchants, and a few other persons appointed for the purposes of that intercourse?—It was so.

State to the Committee, whether in point of fact, those severe laws are not at this time modified in practice?—There has been in practice a considerable relaxation of those laws in favour of strangers.

Do you conceive that one of the principal causes, or the principal cause of the relaxation of those laws, has been the mode of carrying on the China trade by the Company?—I should certainly consider, that the system according to which the trade is at present carried on, is one of the principal causes of that improvement. There may be, no doubt, some collateral causes, which have contributed to the same effect.

Do you not know that the jealousies of the Chinese have been so far subdued, that they have even made advances at Canton to a direct and confidential intercourse with the servants of the Company?—There have been such advances in one instance, within my recollection.

Are you of opinion, that notwithstanding the lessening of the jealousy of the Chinese above stated, very slight causes may probably bring our trade with China into great danger?—Our trade with China is certainly still upon a precarious footing, and is liable to be disturbed by provocations which might be considered of a slight nature.

Do you know that the English have been lately excluded from the port of Chusan?—I have understood that the English were formerly admitted to the port of Chusan, which they are not at present.

Do you know whether it was from any considerable provocation on the part of the English, that they were excluded from the last mentioned port?—I am not acquainted with the causes of the exclusion of the English from the port of Chusan, but I have not understood that there was any adequate provocation.

From your knowledge of the Chinese, do you think they consider their commerce with the East India Company as of any considerable consequence to the prosperity of their empire?—The Chinese government have always declared, that they do not consider it of any consequence to the prosperity of the Chinese empire.

In your opinion, have not the measures and conduct of the Company's servants at Canton even gained them the respect and confidence of the Chinese?—The Chinese certainly testify much greater respect and esteem for them than for other foreigners, or for any foreigners when the trade was first opened with that country.

Do not you think that the unimpeachable good faith of the Company has greatly contributed to that effect?—I should consider that it certainly has.

Has not the beneficial effect of the Company's good character in China extended not only to their own officers and other adventurers from British India, but also to foreigners, and particularly to the Americans?—I think it has, in some respects.

From your knowledge of the Chinese, do you think that the character of the Americans stands equally high with that of the Company, among the Chinese, for honour and probity?—I should think by no means so.

Are you of opinion that the power of the Company contributes, as well as their probity, to the high character they hold among the Chinese?—It certainly contributes to the respect and to the consideration they receive from the Chinese.

From your knowledge of the Chinese trade, do you think it is capable of great improvement and extension upon the present system?—I should conceive it is capable of a gradual extension, and that beyond any limits which can be at present assigned.

Supposing the present system were to be broken, and the traders of this country, honest and dishonest, experienced and inexperienced, were allowed a participation in the China trade, what, in your opinion, would be the probable consequence?—I should think it extremely probable that disputes would arise, and that additional restrictions would be laid upon the trade; that it might, in consequence of such disputes, be suspended, and perhaps altogether abandoned, in consequence of the treatment that might be experienced from the Chinese, and the new regulations that might be imposed for the controul of the trade.

Do you think it probable, that in the event last mentioned, the trade being thrown open, such impediments would be thrown by the Chinese in the way of it, as would tend greatly to diminish, if not entirely to destroy it?—I conceive that the trade would be rendered much less advantageous than it is at present; but whether it would become necessary altogether to abandon it, would depend upon circumstances which it is not possible to foresee.

Supposing the Company's power to be destroyed, what would be the state of British subjects in China, without the protection they now receive from it?—I should conceive they would be liable to considerable embarrassments and vexations in the conduct of their trade, and in a much greater degree than they are at present.

Supposing that a king's consul were established at Canton, is it your opinion that he could exercise the same authority that the Company now does in the protection of British subjects?—I should conceive not; as the power and influence of the Company's servants is chiefly derived from their having the direction and management of the trade.

Is it your opinion upon the whole, that it is of the utmost importance, if not of absolute necessity, to the preservation and improvement of our trade with China, that the present system should be continued?—I should think it is certainly highly important to the preservation and improvement of the trade, that the present system should be continued.

Is it from political causes only, or from commercial causes also, that you think it would be inexpedient to throw the China trade open?—I should conceive there are likewise some commercial causes that would prevent the trade being carried on so advantageously on any other system as the present.

In your opinion, have the Americans, and other foreign traders who have been to China, been able to enter into competition, in any degree, with the East India Company in the Chinese market?—They do in some articles of trade to a certain extent.

Are those, with respect to the commerce in general, superior or inferior articles?—They have entered into competition in respect to some species of teas, and also in some of the inferior articles.

When you speak of their having entered into competition with the Company, in some species of teas, are those superior or inferior species of teas?—I can hardly distinguish them by the term superior or inferior; they are peculiar species of teas. What are they?—Some kinds of green teas chiefly.

Do you consider the uniform price of teas as one of the consequences of the present system?—I should certainly impute it in a great measure, or entirely, to the present system.

State to the Committee in what manner you suppose that effect to be produced by the present system?—I conceive, that as the Company bid singly in the market of China for the produce of that country, they must necessarily obtain it cheaper, and at more uniform prices, than if a great number of individuals entered into competition with each other.

In point of fact, the monopoly of teas in China is in the Hong merchants, is it not?—I consider it so.

According to the present system, do you consider that the East India Company, notwithstanding the monopoly of tea in the Hong merchants, is enabled in a very great degree, to regulate the price of it?—They have generally the refusal of all teas, and other principal articles brought to market for foreign consumption; and in respect to those articles in the purchase of which they have not to meet with any competition, they are certainly enabled, in a great measure, to regulate the price.

Are you of opinion that a free market with China would have the effect of raising the price of tea in that country?—I should conceive it would necessarily do so.

Do you think that the Americans, or other foreign traders who have traded to China, have traded with equal or greater advantage than the East India Company?—I am not able to speak to the advantages which individuals have derived from their trade, but I should conceive that the credit and reputation of the Company in China does give them, generally speaking, considerable advantage in carrying on their trade in that country.

Are you of opinion, that the advantages which have been derived to this country from the sale of British manufactures and produce in China, has been entirely owing to the present system?—I should conceive that the present extent to which British manufactures are sold in China, is in a great measure, or entirely, owing to the exertions of the East India Company.

Can you state what or whereabouts is the amount of that sale at present?—I believe at least a million sterling in value.

In what articles?—Chiefly woollens and metals.

Can you state to the Committee what difficulties the Company have had to contend with, in producing the present sale of those commodities in China?—The Chinese generally entertain considerable prejudices against any new article, and it is therefore often necessary to dispose of it for a considerable time at a loss; but after a time those prejudices wear off, and the merits and value of the articles are known, and the sale extended.

Do you mean to state, that in point of fact, the sale of British woollens to a large amount in China, has been produced by the Company having sold them, in the first instance, at a loss?—I conceive that that is one of the causes of the present extent of the sale of British produce; in addition to which the Company enter into contracts to dispose of those articles in return for teas purchased of the China merchants.

Do you know in point of fact, that in the commencement of that trade with China, the Company disposed of our woollens in that country at a loss?—It appears by the accounts of the East India Company, that the woollens have been sold at a loss, and I have no doubt that has been the case.

Do you know whether a taste for the woollen manufactures of this country is now established to a considerable degree in China, by the means the Company have taken for that purpose?—The taste for British woollens has certainly been introduced to a considerable extent in China.

Can you state to the committee the nature of the contracts made between the Company and the Hong merchants, by means of which the sale of our manufactures has been, in a considerable degree, forced into that country?—As the Chinese merchants derive their profits chiefly from the sale of teas, they are willing, for the sake of those profits, to contract to receive the woollens, with little or no profit to themselves upon them; those contracts are accordingly very essential to the sale of our British manufactures in that country.

You mean, that from the advantage they gain in selling their tea to the East India Company, they have been willing to contract with the East India Company for taking off our manufactures, even without a profit to themselves?—I conceive that is the principle, or understanding, upon Which the contracts are made.

Do you know whether, in consequence of such measures having been pursued by the Company, their trade with China, in our woollen manufactures, is now profitable to them as well as to the nation?—To the best of my recollection, it has become decidedly profitable to the Company in some articles of the woollens.

Has the reception of British woollens in China been procured in a considerable degree by the Company's attention to their quality?—The attention of the Company to the quality of their woollens, and also to the prevention of any irregularity or deception in the packages in which they are contained, has contributed in a very important degree to their circulation and reception throughout the empire of China.

Is not the Company's mark, in all parts of China, admitted as full proof both of the quality and the quantity of the goods that are sold under it?—I have always understood so.

Do the Americans, and other foreigners, who trade to China, carry out manufactures, or bullion, to exchange for the commodities they get there?—They carry out bullion to a considerable extent, and some articles of native produce; but few, if any, manufactures, as far as I am acquainted.

Can you form any idea of the average annual importation of tea to this country?—The cargoes are provided in China, upon the assumption that the demand is from 24 to 25 millions of pounds.

Considering that tea is become almost a necessary of life among the lower as well as the higher ranks in this country, do not you think that very great distress in this country would be the consequence of a great reduction, either of the quantity of the tea imported, or of any great deterioration in its quality?—I should conceive it certainly would be attended with distress and inconvenience to the country, under the present circumstances of the universality of the demand.

Do you think, that if the trade between this country and China were thrown open, it might be a probable consequence of it; that either the quantity of tea would be ill proportioned to the demand, or that the quality of it would be deteriorated?—I conceive the measures now taken by the East India Company for regulating the supply in proportion to the demand, in respect to the aggregate amount, and also in respect of the different species of tea of which that aggregate consists, could not be taken by individuals; and therefore that it is very probable that teas of an inferior quality would be imported, and that the supply would also fluctuate in a manner that would be very inconvenient and prejudicial to the interests of the consumer.

Are you of opinion, that any material derangement of, or inroad upon, the tea trade, might be attended with great danger, as well to the revenues of this country as to those of the Company?—I am not able to speak to how far smuggling might be practicable by individuals, but I conceive it would be certainly much more practicable than under the present system, and therefore probably attended with the effect stated in the question.

Can you state, from your own knowledge, whether there is any peculiar nicety required in adjusting the supply of tea to the demand, and in selecting the various kinds of tea?—I should conceive, as I have already stated, that it is very important to the consumer that the supply should be regular and uniform; there is also a very considerable nicety requisite in the selection of teas, which is attended to under the present system, and which probably could not under any other.

Is not tea an article that requires the nicest examination to prevent its adulteration?—It does so, more than any article with which I am acquainted.

Can you state what becomes of any damaged tea that may be in the Company's possession, even supposing it might be saleable?—I have understood that, in many instances, damaged teas are sent down in barges to the mouth of the Thames, and there thrown into the sea in the presence of the officers of the revenue who attend to see the tea so destroyed.

Do you mean to state that it is the practice of the Company to destroy all damaged teas, even though they might, if they pleased, sell them at an inferior price?—So I have understood.

Do you know what becomes of tea of a bad quality, if it should turn out that the Company are in any instances imposed upon by the merchants in China, or have by accident purchased such teas?—Teas of a bad and objectionable quality, have, in many instances, been returned on the hands of the owners and original merchants, of whom they were purchased, and the prices paid for those teas deducted from their accounts.

Do you mean that without any dispute the Chinese merchants are accustomed to allow the price of such teas of inferior quality, in account with the Company?—The Chinese merchants, have, generally speaking, such confidence in the honour and good faith of the Company, that they are in the habit of submitting to such charges with little or no opposition.

Do you think that such a practice could possibly be pursued by any private merchants dealing in the same article?—I should conceive not; I know of no instance in which it has been practised.

Are there not certain kinds of tea, the growth and manufacture of which are encouraged by the Company, though not in a very great degree profitable, that are imported in general with other teas, the growth and manufacture of which individuals would not probably encourage?—There are certain species of lea, the growth and cultivation of which the Company encourage to a much greater degree by higher prices than individuals would be likely to do, this is on account of the advantage of a portion of those teas being included in the supply for general consumption. These teas are probably mixed with other teas by the teamen in England.

From your knowledge of the tea trade do you think it of great general importance to that trade that the growth and manufacture of such species of tea should be encouraged?—I cannot speak from my own knowledge; but I conceive, from the information of others, that it must be a considerable advantage to the tea trade in general.

Are you of opinion, that upon the present system, the quality, the quantity, and the appreciation of the annual supply of tea to this country is carried to the highest pitch of perfection?—I am not aware of any change from the present system by which it could be improved.

Are not you of opinion, that upon this subject, the Company are guided by more liberal motives than in the nature of things it can be expected any individual traders can be?—I should think that, as the Company look forward prospectively to the future success and extension of the trade, they must act frequently upon different and more enlarged principles than individuals who have only their present interest in view in the sale of their respective cargoes.

If a free trade were opened with China, do yon think it would be possible for the East India Company to make any calculation for suiting their tonnage for the supply of the article, or the supply to the demand in this country?—Every competition, in proportion to the extent of that competition, would necessarily disturb the arrangements and calculations of the Company.

Supposing the same event of a free trade, are you of opinion that it would be possible to prevent inferior and damaged teas, by direct or indirect channels, from finding their way into the British market?—I am not aware of any regulations that could prevent such tea being introduced into the British market.

Is it your opinion, that such inferior or damaged teas, if introduced in any considerable quantity into the British market, might prove very pernicious to the health of the people who used them?—I am not aware of any tea at present procurable in the Canton market that is peculiarly prejudicial to the health—but if inferior and objectionable teas were introduced, it would be certainly likely to diminish the taste for that article, and therefore to decrease the consumption.

If private ships fitted out from British ports were allowed to navigate directly to and from the eastern islands, are you of opinion that they would by indirect means find methods of securing to themselves a participation in the tea trade?—I have no doubt that means would be found of procuring teas in the eastern islands, and that therefore it is probable they might be introduced from thence into this country.

Are not the eastern seas and islands full of Chinese vessels and colonies?—There are Chinese vessels and colonies, I understand, in almost every part of the Eastern Archipelago.

Have you any doubt that by means of these colonies and vessels, private ships from hence, who are allowed to enter the eastern seas, would be enabled to obtain teas from China?—I have no doubt that they would.

Have you any doubt that teas so procured, though of inferior quality, would in a great degree supersede the use of the Company's teas?—As they would be purchased under an evasion of the Chinese export duties, and particularly if they were sold under an evasion of the English import duties, they would come to the consumer upon much cheaper terms than those of the Company, and would therefore necessarily interfere with the sale of the Company's teas, though of an inferior and less acceptable quality.

Are not you of opinion that the high duties upon tea in this country hold out the strongest temptations to smuggling in every way?—I should conceive that they must.

Are you of opinion, that if a free trade were opened between this country and India, to the exclusion of China and the Chinese seas, means would be found by the private trader to smuggle tea from India?—Certainly not to the same extent as if the trade to the eastern islands were opened; but I am unable to say whether smuggling would be actually impracticable in that case.

If British vessels were permitted to go to Manilla, are you of opinion, that that situation would be peculiarly convenient for the smuggling of tea from China to this country?—It would have a peculiar convenience from its proximity to the port of Canton, and from its being frequented by Chinese vessels.

Do you know whether there would not be another peculiar facility from vessels being enabled to pass to and from Canton and Manilla at all seasons of the year?—They are certainly enabled to pass and repass at all seasons of the year, with some difference in point of time.

State to the Committee, supposing a trade opened with India, and that the smuggling of tea took place, by cargoes being taken up in India by the private traders, in what way do you imagine those cargoes would be conveyed from China to India?—Teas are at present purchased by the country ships trading between China and India without any sort of difficulty.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Do you know what is the Chinese duty upon tea?—I am not acquainted with the exact amount of the duty; but the imperial duty on tea is not considerable.

Where about is the duty upon the export of tea supplied by the Hong merchants?—I have never seen any certain and authentic document on this subject, and therefore cannot give an opinion.

Is it known to you whether the Chinese private traders find means to evade those duties?—The Chinese junks do not clear out generally for foreign ports; and therefore they are not liable by the laws of China to the same duties as foreign vessels. Chinese vessels are not allowed by the laws of the country to proceed, with very few exceptions, to any foreign countries.

An evasion of the Chinese duties is possible?—Yes; because they do not clear out to a foreign port.

Do you know whether the island of Banca supplies much tin to the Chinese market?—It is a considerable source of the supply of tin to the Chinese market.

Do you know the relative price of the tin supplied from Banca, and that imported from England?—I do not recollect.

May 11th.

DANIEL BEALE, esq. was called in and examined.

—You resided some time at Canton?—I did: from the latter end of 1787 to the middle of 1797. I was Prussian consul at Canton, and in that situation carried on a very extensive business as merchant and agent. I was agent for many of the mercantile houses in Bombay and Bengal.

Did that afford you full and ample opportunity of understanding the general nature of the Chinese trade, as between the Chinese and Europeans?—No doubt I had ample opportunity of knowing every thing respecting it.

Describe to the Committee the general mode of carrying on the trade, as between the Chinese and the East India Company?—The trade between the Chinese and the East India Company is carried on by a set of merchants called Hong merchants, who are licensed by the Chinese government; they are also called security merchants, from the circumstance of their being security for the Company's ships as they arrive in rotation; the senior Hong merchant generally securing the first ship arriving, the second the next, and so on in rotation till the whole number are secured; the number of Hong merchants being about nine, when I was in China as nearly as I recollect.

What do you mean by securing the ships?—Responsible to the Chinese government for the duties, as well as for the good conduct of the commander and officers belonging to the respective ships; they are responsible for the duties on imports and exports.

Does the Chinese government require that for every ship that is allowed to take harbour in the river, their security shall be given?—It is impossible that any trade can take place with any ships arriving in the port of Canton, till she is secured; the reason why the Company's ships are se- cured in rotation is, that the Company's trade is sufficiently extensive to give employ to all the Hong merchants; that is, all the Hong merchants have more or less to do with the Company's ships arriving.

You mean all the nine Hong merchants? Yes, the security merchants.

Have those Hong merchants any particular privilege given to them from the Chinese government, with respect to trade?—The exclusive right of importing or exporting; no other Chinese can import or export, except through them.

Does that apply to the trade with Europeans, or generally?—With the Europeans.

Are there other Chinese merchants resident at Canton that deal with the Europeans?—There are other merchants that trade with the Europeans; but we consider them what we call outside merchants, and that there is no security to any individuals trading with them, whereas in trading with the Hong merchants, there is the security of the Hong, and their known character in that situation.

Do those outside merchants deal under the privilege and license of the Hong merchants?—I do not consider that to be exactly the case; I conceive, if I purchase a quantity of teas from the outside merchant, that outside merchant is under the necessity of applying to the Hong merchant for permission to ship the teas off in his name.

Then the outside merchant would require the Hong merchant's sanction for making the shipment?—Yes; it is only the needy Hong merchants who will permit them to ship off in their names; the advantage is, that they receive the duties immediately from them.

Are there any particular rules, laws or regulations, enacted by the Chinese with respect to the European ships when they are there, as to their means of defence, such as their arms being deposited, or any rules of precaution on the part of the Chinese government?—I have understood formerly the guns of the ships used to be landed; but that has not taken place during my residence, nor during the memory of any living person, I believe.

Does the Chinese government discover in its regulations any particular degree of jealousy, with respect to the Europeans who trade there?—No doubt, by confining them to particular limits; in that respect, a jealousy may be said to be observed.

Is it your opinion that the regulations, whatever they might have been, are now materially relaxed towards Europeans?—I conceive the Europeans are confined to the same individual limits now, that they were accustomed to be.

Have you had an opportunity of perceiving whether the Company seem to stand high, or otherwise, in the confidence of the Chinese government?—There is no doubt the Company's representatives stand very high in the estimation of the Canton merchants, and I should suppose in the opinion of the government also, from the regularity with which they conduct their trade, and the particular good conduct of the gentlemen in their service.

Have you had an opportunity of observing whether the Company stand very high in the opinion of the Chinese, with regard to commercial integrity? — No doubt I have had that opportunity, and I know the Company's bales frequently circulate without being opened, merely from the regularity with which the business is transacted, and it is known from the description of the supracargo that they actually contain the articles specified; the Company's mark is established, and gives currency to every thing they deal in, and a preference to it.

Do you mean that those bales will pass into the interior parts of China, under the sanction of the Company's mark, to a considerable distance from Canton?—I consider that I can better explain what I mean by the relation of an anecdote, if it is not taking up too much of the time of the Committee: I recollect that the late captain M'Intosh commanded the Hindostan, and was appointed by the Company to attend upon the embassy; he expected that the ship he commanded would have an opportunity of visiting various ports in China, and in consequence laid in a very large investment of different articles that he conceived would be adapted to the Chinese market, under an expectation of being able to sell them at a greater price than such articles sold at the port of Canton; he was disappointed in this, for he returned to Canton without being able to sell at the different ports that he went to, any individual article of his investment. Among other articles he had a quantity of cloth, and cloth being generally confined to the Company's trade, he could not appear himself to sell it; he applied to me to take it into my custody and to dispose of it for him; the cloth, as I was informed by captain M'Intosh, had been put up by the Company's packers in this country, and I was extremely anxious to obtain for him the best price; to my great surprise, on offering it to several of the merchants, I could not obtain the prime cost. I was anxious to obtain from them the reason, and at last, with reluctance, was told by one that he had no doubt the cloth was of the same quality as the Company's, and such as I bad represented it to be in all respects, but that it wanted one essential point, and that was the Company's mark; had he himself been to use the cloth, he said he should have taken it upon my word, but as it was to pass from hand to hand, without the Company's mark, no person would believe him that it was of the quality he described it to be.

Does that mark indicate both quality and measure; what sanction does the mark convey, what sort of warranty?—It warrants it to be of the fineness the Company's cloth generally is, and that the bale contains so many pieces, and each piece so many yards.

Do you know whether any other European traders, of any description, have ever arrived at inspiring that degree of confidence that their mark alone should pass current, as a true indication of quality and contents of package?—I would say, generally, that the supracargoes of other foreign companies established there are,-in general, men of respectability and good character, and, of course, enjoy a certain degree of confidence with the Chinese; but I do not, of my own knowledge, know of any particular articles that have the same confidence; I know that a chest of opium, with the Company's mark, will pass in the same way as a bale of cloth.

Do you know any other instance of an equal degree of confidence?—Generally speaking, I should say not, certainly; but at the same time I wish not to be understood to cast any reflections upon any other companies by any means.

Are you of opinion that the Chinese trade is carried on as between the Chinese and this country, better through the medium of the Company, than it could through any other possible medium?—I am decidedly of opinion, that it is impossible to carry on the intercourse between this country and China to a greater advantage than it is now carried on through the medium of the Company; and I give; as my reason, the systematic regularity with which the Company's concerns are conducted; the regular dispatch of their ships from this country insures their arrival at the proper seasons in China; the aid the Company derive from their resident supracargoes; gentlemen who have grown up from youth to manhood in their service, and who, from their being in the habit of holding frequent consultations in the season of business with the Hong merchants, obtain every information that is necessary to regulate their imports.

Is it of essential importance in the conduct of a business of that kind, that the import should be thus regulated?—No doubt, on account of the seasons; there is a particular season of business, and that past, the imports, in many cases, would remain till the following season unsold.

You have stated your belief that the Chinese trade could not be carried on to more advantage for this country than it is through the medium of the East India Company; according to the best of your experience do you believe, that it could possibly be carried on so well through any other given medium?—I do not think it could possibly be carried on so well through any other given medium, because I regard the principal staple from this country, as woollens; and that the trade between this country, as carried on by the Company, is at present a forced trade; that is, that no individuals fitting out a ship in the port of London, could load her with woollens, or any articles of that description saleable at Canton, and sell them there at an advanced price.

Favour the Committee with some account of the progress of the woollen trade by the Company; you recollect it when it was much smaller than it is now?—I recollect it in the year 1792, when it was much smaller than it is now.

Can you state the proportions?—I cannot from my own knowledge; I have understood that the trade has been increased from a little more than 100,000l. in the year 1792, to, at the present period, an export nearly of a million, and I attribute that to several circumstances; independently of my situation there, I traded to Canton from 1777 to 1787; I have already stated, that I attribute it very much to the regularity and systematic manner in which it is carried on; the period from 1792 to the present period has been particularly fortunate, because in that period there has been excluded from the port of Canton, the French, the Dutch, the Danes and Swedes, all of whom imported woollens and European manufactures, more or less.

You have stated, that to some extent the export trade of this country, through the medium of the Company, was a forced; trade; what do you mean by that?—I mean by a forced trade, as I have already stated, that no person fitting out a ship from hence, and loading her with woollens, would be able to sell at a profit.

In what way has the Company induced the Chinese to buy those woollens?—Their trade is divided into shares, to the best of my recollection, and those Hong merchants have the opportunity of supplying most teas that take most cloth; I do not mean by that to say, that it is a barter of so many bales of cloth for so many chests of tea.

Do you mean to say, that the supra-cargoes regulate their prices of tea, in some measure, according to the quantity of cloth the Hong merchants will buy?—. The Company's import of woollens is divided into shares, and the Hong merchant that takes the greater number of shares of the cloth, has the greater number of shares in the export trade.

Is that regular rule observed, in order to encourage the Hong merchant to take a quantity of cloth?—There is a considerable discretionary power in the breasts of the committee of supracargoes, and I do not suppose they act on any general rule, they are governed by discretion in their purchases and sales.

Has that discretion, in its operation, held out a material encouragement to the Hong merchants to buy the woollens of this country?—No doubt, I conceive it has; those who take the greatest quantity of woollens will have most teas taken from them.

Does not the Hong merchant understand that it is expected, as a sort of condition, that he will take the woollens of this country, if the teas are bought of him to any material extent?—I believe, if the Company's documents were referred to, it would be found that the trade is, in a great degree, regulated from season to season, and that they contract for a quantity of woollens and. a quantity of camlets, and the advantage of the resident supracargoes is great; from those consultations it enables them to regulate their trade by a correspondence with the committee of correspondence in this country, and the representations of the supracargoes is, I conceive, paid attention to by the committee of correspondence in this country; I speak of the effect.

The effect of this has been the encouragement of the Hong merchants to purchase the woollens of this country?—No doubt; and the policy of the Company has been, I presume, such as to have a large stock, so as to prevent any individual importing woollens and selling them at an advance.

According to the best of your judgment, as a merchant, did the Company sell those woollens, looking a little to the earlier part of the history of it, to a loss or to a profit?—In the earlier part, I do not conceive the Company were regulated by the same policy exactly, as I now perceive they are; I judge of the effect when their imports were small; no doubt they would have greater advantage, in proportion, from a smaller quantity than they have from the sale of a larger; their object has been, I conceive, very plainly, to force the sale of woollens as I have described.

Do you mean by forcing it, that they subjected themselves to any degree of loss, rather than not press the article?—I mean most distinctly, by forcing it, to say this; it has always been an object to have a quantity there, that they should never know the want of the articles.

The Hong merchants themselves are persons of sufficient capital to enable them to keep the woollens by them for a considerable time?—Some of them are, and some are not; the wealthy Hong merchants have kept woollens for several years, while the more needy have been glad to dispose of them at a very inferior price indeed.

Have you any means of knowing whether the Hong merchants have disposed of their woollens above prime cost, or at a loss, or how?—I have known that they have sold them considerably under prime cost.

Will the Hong merchants run that risk, in order to have an opportunity of selling their teas to such a customer as the Company?—No doubt they know they must each take a certain quantity of woollens, in order to enable them to sell a quantity of teas to the Company.

If the Company were to cease to press the purchase of British woollens in this way, could individual traders in this country, do you apprehend, if the trade were opened, effect such a sale of them?—I conceive, if the trade were opened, the export of woollens from this country to China would immediately diminish; because no merchant would take a quan- tity of woollens upon the chance or selling them again, and at a loss, if he had the option of receiving money instead of woollens; and individuals, exporting from this country, if they found any difficulty in the sale of their woollens at Canton, upon another speculation to that country would avoid taking woollens, and would take dollars.

Do you think that the diminution of the sale of woollens from this country to China, under the circumstances of an open trade, would be material?—I have no doubt it would be very material, for the reasons I have described.

Has the effect of the connection between the Hong merchants and the Company been to establish an uniform price of tea, or nearly so?—The operation of the Company's resident supracargoes has been to keep down the prices of the teas delivered to the Company; I am speaking now from memory merely; and I think, in the period of 35 years that I have known China, the advance of the price on teas has been very small.

State to the Committee to what you impute this non-advance of price?—I impute it to the operation of the Company's supracargoes resorting to their former contracts from year to year, and watching with great jealousy any advance on the part of the Chinese: the next reason is, that the Company are the purchasers of at least four-fifths of the tea exported from Canton.

Do you mean, that the Company, from the magnitude of their purchase, and the authority of their station, have been able thus to keep down the price of tea?—I mean to say this most distinctly, that the purchase of the Company's teas being made by one committee, on one hand, if I may so term it, has tended to keep down the price of teas, and will continue to keep it down while it so remains; but if the Company's trade were thrown open, and instead of one committee being the purchaser of four-fifths of the tea exported from Canton, there were, as there would be at least eighty purchasers, because I conceive there would be eighty ships, where there are now only twenty; in that case, the prices of tea would immediately materially advance, for this plain reason, a supracargo of one ship would be induced to give a higher price in order to have a particular chop of teas (chop signifying a mark); another would be induced to give a higher price, in order to secure an immediate dispatch of his ship; another probably, from the particular circumstances under which he was trading, would be under the necessity of giving a higher price, from requiring credit; and when once high prices were established, it would be very difficult to bring them back, as the Chinese would always quote the last high price he had obtained from one supracargo, to the next person coming to purchase of him.—By the word chop, I mean the Chinese mark indicating a particular growth of teas, containing a quantity of tea of one uniform quality in a number of chests all of one chop or mark.

What other leading article of British manufacture is successfully exported from this country to Canton?—Lead, tin, camlets, which are considered among woollens; the Company do not trade in smaller articles; they leave them to their commanders and officers, who have a certain portion of the tonnage on board each ship, and carry out such articles as are suited, in their opinion, to the Chinese market.

Are the commanders and officers at liberty to carry out lead and tin?—Yes; but not woollens.

Do you think, if the trade were opened, the quantity would be materially decreased?—I do.

Do you think that which was exported under the circumstances of an open trade would fetch as good prices as that now exported by the East India Company?—I have already stated, that were the trade thrown open, the quantity of woollens exported would very sensibly diminish, because I am very sensible that the trade the Company now carry on, is a forced trade; I conceive that any private merchant carrying out a quantity of woollens and losing by them, would not be induced to repeat that speculation; that is, if he took out this year a hundred bales, and lost ten per cent. by them, he would be induced next year to take out fifty only.

Do the Hong merchants act so far in connection as to make it, in fact, a monopoly of trade among themselves?—No, by no means, every man is governed by his own individual interest.

Each Hong merchant trades as much as he can for himself?—No doubt.

But no other person, without their sanction or permission?—Certainly not; they cannot import our manufactures, nor can they purchase but under the sanction of his chop or licence.

Supposing a large number of persons at the market, do you think that would lead to any deterioration of quality?—Most undoubtedly; the deterioration of quality would be very considerable, from the want of judgment in the persons purchasing; at present, the Company have the advantage, not only of their own resident supracargoes, but they are also assisted by a tea-inspector, a gentleman conversant in the tea trade in this country; and no teas are received from the Hong merchants and shipped on board the Company's ships on the Company's account but what undergo a very rigid inspection from this gentleman.

Do you mean that the Chinese are that sort of people, that when dealing with Englishmen not so conversant with the business, they would take advantage of their want of judgment, and materially lower the quality of the leas?—I have a perfect recollection when the Company first sent out an inspector to Canton, for the purpose of inspecting the teas; the advantage they derived from that inspector was, that he immediately classed the teas, and he distinguished those chops that were of a particular quality, and those that were of an inferior; those that were of an inferior he rejected altogether, on account of their false package, and they were subsequently purchased at an abatement of about one third of the price; I do conceive this had the effect of making the Chinese more circumspect in the package of their teas; and that the delivery of teas to the Company always takes place of a superior quality.

Do you recollect what description of purchasers those teas met with?—They were sent to this country, under the denomination of superior hysonskins.

Do you think the high prices you suppose the open trade would induce, might also induce material admixture or deterioration of the article, in order to bring down the price nearer to the level of the present prices?—I have no sort of doubt that an open trade to China would tend to deteriorate the quality of teas; for they would no longer undergo the rigid inspection they new do from the Company.

Do you think they would deteriorate them to bring them down so as to meet the convenience of all the purchasers at low prices?—I think this, that there would not be so much attention paid to the package of the teas, and the teas would be deteriorated in quality in consequence of their not undergoing the same inspection as they now do.

Do you think they would be tempted under such circumstances, in order to meet purchasers at a low price, to mix any other drug or vegetable with tea?—They certainly would mix the teas, and would falsely pack them.

Do you apprehend substitution would follow this open trade?—I have already stated, that a consequence of an open trade would be a deterioration in the quality of the teas; the Company now have the refusal of all the best teas that come to the market; all the best teas arriving at Canton, are now tendered to the Company.

Since your acquaintance with Canton, can you say, whether either by the Company themselves, or their commanders or officers, every degree of enterprise has been used to increase the exports of this country in British manufactures?—I have no doubt of it; for in every Company's ship going from this country, I believe there is to the extent of about ninety tons allotted to the commanders and officers of the ship, which they fill up in any manner they please, except with woollens.

In the course of years, and in those assorted cargoes, has every rational attempt been made to increase the export of British manufactures to China?—I am satisfied every experiment has been made, and is continually making by the commanders and officers of the Company's ships; who are men of considerable enterprise; and if any articles were saleable in Canton, they would carry them out.

Do you apprehend, that opening the trade to China would materially increase the Chinese consumption of British manufactures?—In no degree whatever, in my humble opinion; I do not think the Chinese are to be induced to wear buckles, or to use knives and forks; I mean by that sort of answer to state that their habits are fixed.

Do you mean, that from the fixed habits of their life and their general character, you would entertain no hope of increasing the export of British manufactures, under the circumstances of an open trade?—I conceive, that the privilege afforded of 90 tons in each ship, filled up by the commanders and officers, gives every opportunity of experiment that can be made from this country to China.

Have those experiments been made, in point of fact, more or less during the number of years you have resided at Canton?—Every year there is some new article attempted to be carried out, which turns out favourable, or otherwise.

Can you state what articles of British manufacture were consumed by the natives of the Eastern Islands?—I should not suppose that the natives of the Eastern Islands consume any articles of British manufacture.

Do they use coarse cutlery?—Coarse cutlery, Malay knives as they are called; but those articles are generally carried out to Bengal; and the trade to the Eastern Islands is carried on from Bengal; I once had a ship myself engaged in it, she carried nothing but opium and dollars.

Did you adventure upon articles of British manufacture to the Eastern Islands?—Most certainly not; nothing but opium and dollars.

Can you state any other article of British manufacture but coarse cutlery, the Eastern Islands take?—I really cannot; and I shall suppose coarse cutlery is in very small quantities, hardly worth sending; piece-goods for the turbans, and for the comberbands of the manufacture of Bengal, are also exported; but the ship I sent, carried nothing but opium and dollars.

According to your general knowledge and experience as merchant and agent, do you believe that, in case of an open trade, there would be room for any increased export of British manufactures to the Eastern Islands?—I should think not.

Supposing the trade thus opened, and that every subject of the United Kingdom had access to the eastern seas, is it your opinion that, with proper and previous arrangements, and supposing tea to be the object of the adventurer, he could get supplied in those seas without going to Canton?—By proper arrangements, he might have any quantity of teas.

In what way would they obtain this supply?—Many country ships return from the port of Canton without any cargo whatever; and those ships might take any quantity of tea; a previous arrangement would induce them.

The question refers to parties who might be prohibited from going absolutely to Canton; supposing those seas to be open to all the subjects of the United Kingdom, such being the object of the adventurer, could not he get supplied with teas?—The Portuguese from Macao might export teas in any quantity.

Through this medium, English country private ships might be supplied from the Eastern Islands?—Yes, doubtless; a considerable export might also take place in Chinese junks to Batavia; there are at present five junks sail annually from the port of Amoy to Batavia; and I am told the emigration upon these junks amounts to 3,000 Chinese every year; there are above 40,000 Chinese established in Batavia and its dependencies; and these Chinese junks supply them with tea and other articles; but if tea were once made an article desirable to be purchased at Batavia, I am satisfied it might be made an article of supply nearly as cheap, on account of the duties and charges of shipping off.

Speaking as a British merchant, and looking to an open trade in those seas, and adding the British duty of ninety five per cent. to those duties which you think would be avoided in China, do you think that this universal access to the eastern seas would induce smuggling as an enter-prize or adventure upon the part of those who should have access to them?—I have no doubt teas might be procured with the greatest facility in the manner I have described; but were I engaged in a smuggling transaction of this kind, I should not go that way to work, I should not employ those means, I should employ an American.

Do any means or medium occur to you, through which a British adventurer might then extensively smuggle teas?—I do conceive, that unless some regulation takes place to prevent the export of teas in country ships from Canton, tea may be from thence exported and deposited in various places in the course of their voyage from China to the ports, to which they belong.

Do you mean that they would be deposited, for the purpose of being met with by such adventurers as you have described?—If an arrangement of that kind took place, no doubt teas might be had in that way in any quantities, exported in the country ships sailing from Canton to Bombay; they would pass Malacca, Penang, the Port of Tringany, and might deposit tea there, and in innumerable other ports.

Is Manilla a place or station peculiarly favourable for a speculation of that kind?—No doubt, there are Portuguese ships and Spanish ships that trade from Manilla to Macao, and Macao to Manilla, and in those ships teas might be exported to any amount.

What sort of teas are those which are sold to the Americans?—The Company have the offer of all the best teas that come to Canton; of course, those the Americans purchase, with a very few exceptions, are those the Company have rejected.—Generally speaking, the American cargoes are infinitely inferior to the Company's cargoes; I will not Undertake to say every individual chest has been previously rejected, that would be too much to assert.—I have no doubt a comparison being made between a cargo of teas purchased by the East India Company, and a cargo of teas purchased by the Americans, the Company's teas would be of a much superior quality; but with respect to the American being able to undersell the Company, that would depend upon the terms on which he had done his business at Canton; for instance, if the American had dealt on credit, and wholly on credit, he must be content to pay a larger price for an inferior quality of tea.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Is the Committee to understand, that you suppose, that in the event of an open trade, a very considerable deterioration in the quality of tea would be likely to take place?—I think that would be one of the consequences of an open trade.—It arises from an opinion that I have, that it would take a considerable time for any set of men to enter into that commerce, and to be competent judges of the articles they were to purchase.

Do not you suppose it likely, that in the event of a free trade to China, persons well acquainted with the different qualities of tea would proceed from this country, for the purpose of engaging in that commerce?—I have no doubt they would; but my great reason goes in this way, that the Company's teas are now purchased by the Company's supracargoes, who are the purchasers of four-fifths of the whole quantity of teas that they sell; their purchases are regulated under the inspection of supracargoes, and an inspector, who are competent judges; but if the trade was thrown open, and there were eighty ships, and eighty supracargoes to purchase the same quantity, and, of course, each having an individual interest only, not a general interest, as the Company now have, the teas will necessarily become deteriorated, because there is not the same strength of judgment to bring into the general inspection.

Are not you of opinion, that a free competition in the purchase of tea, as in all other articles, will produce to the public the best commodities at the lowest possible price?—My great reasoning has been to shew, that the Company have kept down the prices of teas; that for the last 35 years the prices of tea have advanced in a very small degree; but I have no doubt, if the trade were thrown open, any set of men going to purchase superior teas must pay a larger price; there would not be a general standing price as there is now; and in consequence of the price being advanced for a particular set of teas, that would have the effect of advancing the price generally upon all teas, and when once a larger price was fixed, it would never get down again. Another inconvenience would result from an open trade: the Company's ships are now upwards of 1,200 tons burthen, with a view to this particular trade; were the trade to be thrown open to individuals, and ships of smaller burden introduced, ships of 350 tons, there would be a disadvantage of at least 50,000l. per annum in port charges, the port charges upon a large ship not bearing any proportion to those upon a small one.

At the different times you were in China, were there many foreign vessels belonging to Americans or other states?—Yes, I can enumerate them if it is wished; the Swedes, in general, had two ships; the Danes one or two; the Dutch five; and the French one: I am speaking now of from 1787 to 1792—The Americans had very few ships in China, to the best of my recollection, till 1793; and I consider the great encrease of the American trade to have taken place from that period; the war tended very much to the encrease of the American trade in China.

What, size of vessels were generally employed?—From 250 to 300 tons; the American trade was not entirely confined to the export of tea from China, but they exported large quantities of nankeens and silks, upon which they derived very great advantage by the sale to the French West India islands and Spanish America; I have known an American ship take from China 300,000 pieces of nankeen in one season.

Do you happen to know whether there were many disputes or differences arising between the Chinese government and any of those persons?—I am not at alt aware of any; I wish also to state, that though I do not desire to be considered as an advocate of it, yet I do conceive, that the trade between America and China hat tended to facilitate the trade of the English in China, by the quantity of dollars they have imported to China; for in consequence of the import of dollars to China, by the Americans, Portuguese, and Spaniards, the Company, I believe, no longer export bullion from this country to China, but on the contrary have imported a large quantity of bullion from China to this country; and, I believe, such, generally, is the advantageous trade carried on by Great Britain and its dependencies to China, that the trade, as between Chinese and British subjects, has become very nearly a barter; indeed, if it was possible to procure an exact return of all the imports and all the exports from Canton, I have no doubt it would be found this country had made the Chinese tributary to us.

Is the Committee to understand it to be your opinion, that a considerable loss has arisen to the Company from the exportation of woollens to China?—I did not intend to have so stated it; but I mean to say, that the export of woollens by the Company is so considerable, that no individual can export from this country to China with any advantage, or without a loss, the market to China being continually stocked by the Company.

Are not the country ships secured by the Hong merchants, in the same manner as the Company's ships and others are?—The country ships are secured by the Hong merchants, who purchase their cargoes.

Is not that security tantamount, in every respect, to the security of the Company's ships?—The Hong merchant, who secures the ship, is merely responsible to the government for the duties on import and export of that ship, and the good conduct of the commander and ship's company.

Are not the country ships, which go to China, placed tinder the orders and regulations of the Company's supracargoes there? — The country ships arriving in China, immediately after their arrival receive certain instructions from the Company's supracargoes, to which they are to attend.

Can you, from your recollection, state the tenor of those regulations?—The general tenor is admonitory as to their good conduct, to prevent their getting into any disputes or disturbances with the Chinese; with respect to the disposal of the cargo, the Company's supracargoes have no controul.

Are you aware of the covenants entered into by the owners of country ships with the government of India, by which they are bound to attend to all orders and regulations of the supracargoes at Canton?—I believe such covenants exist.

Have you heard that a penalty of double the value of the ship and cargo is attached to the breach of those covenants?—I do not know the exact extent of the penalty; but it may be to the amount mentioned in the question.

In the event of a regulation being made by the supracargoes at Canton, that no country ship should receive on board teas, do you not think that such regulation would be effectual to prevent the export of teas from Canton by country ships?—No doubt it may be rendered; but that will depend upon the disposition of the parties to comply with the covenants.

Is it usual to ship any considerable quantity of tea upon the country ships for India, or only a small quantity for the use of the different settlements in India?—I have in my recollection a quantity of teas belonging to an American being shipped on board a country ship bound to Bombay; and, I believe, from Bombay they were afterwards exported to America.

Has this been a usual trade, or is it only a solitary instance to which you allude?—No doubt it is a solitary instance to which. I allude; but still it is evidence of the practicability of the exportation of teas from China; and it shews also, that Company's supracargoes take no cognizance of the shipment of teas on board country ships; for there is no particular register kept of the exports from China to the settlements in India; there is no doubt, regulations might be made to fit the case of exports of tea in country ships.

You are no doubt aware, that there is at present no regulation to prevent the export of teas from China in country ships?—There is not at present, to my knowledge, any regulation to prevent the export of any quantity of tea in a country ship.

Do not you think, that in the event of such a regulation being made, with a penalty attached to the breach of it, such as before stated, of the forfeiture of double the value of ships and cargo, it would be eff∊ctual to prevent teas being carried to India for such purposes?—I think it would.

Is there not a regular account kept of all goods exported from Canton in the linguists office?—The linguists no doubt take an account of all goods exported, and on board of what ships; but I believe it would be extremely difficult to have recourse to such documents, if they exist, after the goods are shipped off.

Are not you of opinion that the Company's supracargoes in China, from their great influence with the government there, would be enabled to frame such regulations as would effectually prevent any goods being shipped on board the country vessels, without being reported to them?—If the question goes merely as to the influence of the Company's supracargoes being able to prevent the Chinese from, exporting on particular ships, I should say not; because they may always smuggle on board ships any thing they please; the prohibition must arise from the penalty inflicted upon the ship exporting.

Are you not of opinion, that if the Company's supracargoes were to require an account of all goods regularly shipped off from China, it would be delivered in by the linguists to the supracargoes?—The linguists, upon the requisition of the supracargoes, would give an account of every article shipped on board a particular ship, no doubt,

Are you aware of a very considerable rise having taken place, of late years, in the prices of goods exported to India from China, such as sugar, tutenague, and raw silk?—I have no doubt there may have been a considerable advance upon the articles mentioned.

In case of disappointed views from legal commerce by any of the numerous vessels of 350 tons, from British out-ports, trading to the Eastern Archipelago, would the means of procuring teas, brought from other parts of China by Chinese junks at less charges than are paid at Canton, be easy, if disappointed commanders of those vessels could be tempted to embark in an illicit commerce?—It is not at alt likely that any considerable quantities of teas would be exported and deposited in any particular place, unless there was a previous arrangement.

Supposing this previous arrangement to have taken place, would the means of procuring teas from other parts of China than Canton at less charges than those paid at Canton be easy, if disappointed commanders of those vessels could be tempted to embark in an illegal trade?—I do not think that would be easy; there must be a previous arrangement, and that previous arrangement would require great time; and there must be a great capital embarked; the question is so speculative, that I should prefer not answering it.

Is not tin brought to Canton by the Chinese traders, and other persons, from the island of Banca?—Considerable quantities of tin are imported annually by the Eastern traders from the Straits of Banca.

Do you know pretty nearly, the relative prime cost and charges on which tin is brought from Great Britain, and what is brought from Banca?—No; I cannot speak to that; but it is much cheaper from Banca, generally speaking, and the quality is far preferable, being much more malleable and soft.

Supposing the trade was opened, and a greater resort of private ships from England to take place, do you or do you not think that matter of itself would be likely to give umbrage to the Chinese government?—From my experience, I should rather think the Chinese government would prefer the trade to China being carried on in the present mode rather than in any other, from the extreme regularity with which the business is at present conducted, from the high respectability, from the honour and probity with which their transactions are conducted by the present supracargoes.

Do the Chinese government regard the supracargoes as having any magisterial authority over Europeans, so as to resort to them in case of dispute, and consider them responsible?—The medium of communication between the Europeans and the Chinese government, is, generally speaking, the Hong merchants, and no doubt the chief supracargo is applied to in all cases of disturbance.

You have stated, that some difficulties in trading would arise, if an imperial ship was to arrive at Canton?—I think, until the debt was liquidated there would be a difficulty, and that difficulty would arise from the representation made by the creditors of that Company.

Do you recollect a ship called the Etrusco having arrived in those seas?—Yes.

Under what flag was she?—The flag of the duke of Tuscany, to the best of my recollection; there was a distinction which the Chinese perfectly understood between that ship and imperial ships; they never attempted to confound her with them.

Did she always bear that flag?—Always at the port of Canton.

In any other part of the world?—I can only speak from hearsay as to that; I believe the ship that arrived at Canton, was not the original ship that sailed from Europe under Tuscan colours.

Have you understood that there have been ever any complaints made against the commanders, officers, or crews of the country ships at Canton, or has not their conduct been at all times peaceable and orderly?—Generally speaking, yes; but the great dispute between the English and Chinese upon the occasion of the gunner, which is in every body's recollection who knows any thing of China, originated in a salute fired from a country ship.

Having alluded to that unfortunate circumstance, was it not understood that the Chinese having lost his life upon the occasion of firing that salute, was entirely accidental?—Entirely accidental, from the wadding of a gun.

Mr. JOSEPH RANKING was called in, and examined:

—Have you not dealt extensively in cotton piece-goods from India?—I have, for more than 20 years.

Can you state what is the ad valorem duty on piece-goods sold at the East India house?—The duty on the class called callicoes, is 3l. 6s. 8d. per cent. upon importation; and if they are used for home consumption, there is a further duty of 68l. 6s. 8d. per cent.; there is another class called muslins, on which the duty on importation is 10 per cent.; and if they are used for home consumption, of 27l. 6s. 8d. per cent.; there is a third class, coloured goods, which are prohibited being used in this country, upon which there is a duty upon importation of 3l. 6s. 8d. per cent.; they are only for exportation; this session of parliament there has been a new duty of 20 per cent. on the consolidated duties, which will make the duties on callicoes, on importation, amount to 3l. 16s. 8d. per cent. and if used for home consumption, 78l. 6s. 8d. per cent.; upon the muslins for home consumption, 31l. 6s. 8d., and the prohibited goods will be chargeable with 3l. 16s. 8d.; I am not quite certain what the consolidated duties on muslins are on importation; I rather think it will make them about 12l. per cent.

In what manner is the amount of the ad valorem duties on goods of this description ascertained at the India house?—It is chargeable on the amount the goods sell for at the Company's sales.

The value of goods to pay duty is ascertained by the actual sale?—Yes, by the actual sale at the Company's sale room.

When ad valorem duties are imposed on goods sold elsewhere than at sales of the Company, in what manner is the duty ascertained?—The merchant values his goods, and if the King's officer is satisfied with that valuation, he pays the duty accordingly; but if the King's officer thinks the goods are undervalued, he has an option of taking the goods himself, and paying the amount at which the merchant values his goods.

Is that the single or the chief security against the fraudulent valuation of the article by the importer?—I believe there is no other.

Do you conceive that it would be easy to set an accurate average value on piece-goods from India, in any other mode than by the actual sale of the article?—I should think it would be nearly impracticable; there is such a variety of classification, that I do not think persons would be found with sufficient judgment to know the value of different articles.

Do the piece-goods apparently of the same quality, in point of fact, differ very greatly in value?—Not apparently of the same quality; there are goods of the same denomination that differ very much in value; for instance, the goods imported by the East India Company are very superior, in general, to those imported by private traders; the qualities are very much debased by the private traders in general, they are goods of the same denominations, and called by the same names; it requires judges to know the difference.

Can you at all state what difference of price you have known upon piece-goods of the same denomination, in the same sale?—Goods of the same denomination are of various qualities; I have known goods of the same denomination and the same quality, differ as much as from 5 to 10 per cent. in the course of the sale; it very often happens in the course of a sale, orders come from abroad, and people want to purchase a greater quantity, and there is more competition; it drives up the prices very much.

Can you state from your experience, whether such variations as you have described are of frequent occurrence?—The variations are not very great, but they frequently occur to the extent of 5 per cent.; but I have known them go so far 15 per cent. where there has been a great deal of competition; it is not a frequent case by any means; it occasionally occurs.

The slighter differences of which you speak, are very frequent?—Yes, they have occurred, and do in most sales.

Supposing that the trade in piece-goods for exportation were laid open to the out-ports of the United Kingdom, do you conceive, that the collection of ad valorem duties upon the article could be conveniently effected?—I think that would be almost impracticable, and that the London merchants would be labouring under a great disadvantage; they would be obliged to pay a duty upon the price at the East India Company's sale, where people assemble in time of peace from most parts of Europe and Africa, and things are driven up to their full value; if they were permitted to be valued at the out-ports, where persons could not detect fraud, the merchants there would have a much greater advantage.

Is it your opinion, that under the circumstances in question, the revenue might be defrauded to any considerable amount?—I think it extremely probable that that would occur; I do not think persons could be found competent to know the real value of those goods.

Can you state what would be the general effect on the trade from India in piece-goods, of having private traders admitted to that trade?—As a dealer in. piece-goods, I conceive, we should find, our confidence very much shaken; we. should not be able to judge of the quantity that might be brought to sale at the East India Company's periodical sales; the goods are all under one roof, we know the quantity in the market, and can act with confidence; but we could never tell, if private traders were acting in the out-ports, what quantity might be brought into the market, and we could not act with the same safety and confidence.

On the suppositions before made, do. you conceive it probable that any number of piece-goods taken out of warehouses at the out-ports for the purpose of exportation, will be illicitly introduced in the home consumption?—I am of opinion that it would increase the facilities for smuggling very much; the commissioners of the customs, some time ago, prohibited the white calicoes which are permitted to be consumed at home on high duties, being shipped at the out-ports and sent by land carriage: I suppose in consequence of their conceiving it would give a facility to smuggling.

On the supposition that India piece goods, in any great numbers, could be fraudulently introduced into the home consumption, what effect, in your apprehension, would be produced on the cotton fabrics of this country?—I think it would lessen the consumption of our own cotton fabrics, if those cottons were fraudulently introduced.

Can you state the comparative excellence of the coarser piece-goods from India, and similar cotton goods manufactured in this country?—I am of opinion that the East India goods, where a great weight of material is required, are cheaper and better than those manufactured in this country, but that the middle classes are very much interfered with, or are surpassed even by the British manufactures of the middle qualities.

Do the British goods of those descriptions wear as well as the Indian goods?—I suppose they do; I have not much experience of that, but I conceive they do.

You have stated, that on the supposition of the trade in piece-goods being extended to the out-ports, a considerable quantity of such goods might be smuggled back into this country for home consumption; do you think that such illicit practices could be carried on profitably by the smugglers, in spite of the risks and charges with which all attempts to evade the revenue laws are known to be attended?—I should think it might to a certain extent; the duties are very high, the duties are prohibitory on those calicoes; if the duty was twenty per cent. or forty per cent. less, it would still be very high, and I think many of those classes of goods would be consumed in this country.

Do you know what is the difference between the prices per yard of British white calicoes from the manufacturer, and Indian white calicoes of nearly the same dimensions and quality?—Comparing the goods sold at the Company's Bengal sale in March, with the prices of nearly similar goods of British manufacture, I should think, on an average, the India goods were from 20 to 25 per cent. dearer than the British goods are at present; in many instances the difference is greater than even 50 per cent.; I could collect particular instances, but have spoken of an average price when I say from 20 to 25 per cent.

You have before spoken of the compa- rative merit of Indian and British piece-goods of the coarser and middling qualities; can you state what is the comparative merit of such goods from the two countries, of the finest qualities?—The very finest qualities of East India goods are decidedly superior, and cannot be imitated with success in this country; the goods of the manufacture of Dacca I particularly allude to.

You have before stated, that the admission of the out-ports to a participation in. the piece-goods trade would be inconvenient to the fair British consumers in the metropolis?—Rather to the dealers, because those goods are principally exported that we buy at the Company's sales; or to the importers, if we are to have the same liberty to import piece-goods which they have at the out-ports, which we should of course have; and we should be under a great disadvantage in having to pay full duties, while they pay what they chuse, in fact, according to my opinion of the effect.

Can you form any opinion what effect would be produced upon the foreign consumption of piece-goods, under the circumstances before described?—The foreigners who resort to the Company's sale, would suffer the same inconvenience we should who are, buyers of those goods; they would have their confidence shaken, they would not know how to act; by the present system, we know what the East India Company and private trade mean to bring forward at their sales, and we have them under one roof, and know how to regulate our purchases by the quantity and market, which we should not be so well informed of, if the goods were distributed among five or six out-ports; we could not act with the same confidence.

At what interval of time before the sales, do the Company give notice what goods they intend to put up?—As soon as the Company receive the manifest from the ship, within a week from the arrival of the ship the Company publish an account of her cargo; and we then distribute that among our correspondents in various parts of the world, and receive orders from them before the sales.

Do the Company state precisely of what species the goods are which they intend to put up at their sales?—Yes, it is very accurately stated, as far as relates to the goods belonging to the Company; those goods belonging to individuals are stated in bulk; so many bales of calicoes; we do not know the sorts, and it would be difficult to describe them, because they are of a debased species of goods in general.

Are not the goods intended to be put up, both those belonging to the Company and to private traders, previously exhibited for inspection?—Yes, for a considerable period, perhaps for two months.

Has not the foreign consumption of piece-goods been promoted by the effect of that regular course of proceeding, in regard to the sales of the Company, which you have described?—I should conceive it has been very much promoted by it.

Are the foreign merchants in the habit of sending declarations of the goods which are to be sold to their correspondents abroad?—Yes, they are.

Would this course of proceeding, with respect to foreigners, be consistent with an arrangement which should admit the out-ports to a participation in the piece-goods' trade?—As a dealer in piece-goods, I anticipate great inconvenience from that system being adopted; it would be impossible for a foreigner to come here, and travel to Hull, and Glasgow, and Liverpool, and various other ports; I do not know to what ports this liberty may be extended, but it would distract his attention, and prevent his acting with the confidence with which he can now act.

You assume, that the goods are to be sold at the out-ports by private contract?—Even if they were to be sold by public sale, the quantity might not be sufficient to draw people 400 miles; and they would not act with that confidence they can now act.

Are you of opinion, that the circumstances you have described would materially derange the sales of piece-goods by the Company?—I think they would.

From your knowledge have not foreigners, receiving from their correspondents here declarations of the goods about to be put up at the sales of the Company, occasionally visited this country for the purpose of making their purchases in person?—In time of peace, I have seen more foreigners in the Company's sale room from the different parts of Europe, than there are persons in this committee room at present; from Germany, Switzerland, Russia, Holland, and France.

Can you say whether that circumstance has promoted the consumption of the manufactures of this country among foreigners?—I think it has very much: for those foreigners, when they come to England, have purchased large quantities of British manufactures.

Do you speak from your experience?—From my own dealings with them.

(Examined by the Committee.)

You are acquainted with the British manufactured goods?—Yes, I am.

Do you find that the prices fluctuate very much in the market?—Considerably.

To what do you attribute that?—To the state of the demand.

You never attributed it to a greater importation of East India goods, did you?—No, never.

Are not they used for the same purposes, those imported from the East, and those manufactured in this country?—Yes, there are similar goods manufactured in this country, but the East India goods for the consumption of this country are liable to enormous duties; the calicoes, for instance, are liable, besides the 3l. 6s. 8d. to a duty of 68l. 6s. 8d. if they are taken out of the East India warehouses for home consumption.

You are aware that the piece-goods are not intended to be consumed in the country?—Certainly not.

That you consider as the reason why the protecting duty was established?—I look upon it as a protecting duty to encourage our own manufactures.

Then there would be no danger, provided the out-ports were open to East India goods, from the circumstance of East India piece-goods being sold in the country?—They would be subject to the same duties; and I do not imagine any of them, or to any extent, could be consumed from this country, from the duty being so high.

You were understood to say, that the revenue was in danger of suffering from the duties not being so clearly ascertained in the country as in London, do you know any defect that would arise from the same system of an ad valorem duty being established there, as is here?—I think the danger would be this, that the ad valorem duty would be levied by the merchant himself; I do not think a merchant would be able to be detected if he was disposed to commit fraud; for he might value articles at 10s. a piece that would sell at the East India Company's sales at 15s.; owing to competition, every thing fetches its utmost value, and every imposition might be practised; I think, even at a public sale, things might be collusive; that the mer- chants might put up their goods, and buy them in themselves, and pay a smaller duty than they would in London, where people attend from all parts of the earth.

Are you not aware, that competition would prevail at the out-ports as well as in London?—I am of opinion, there would not be a competition.

Does that arise from the out-ports having but few traders in them?—I should imagine the traders would be attracted to that place where they conceived the greatest assortment, which would be London.

Do not you know, that the goods imported from the east, vary very much in quality?—Very much.

Do not you know, that some of the East India goods, are full as low in quality as any manufacture in this country?—Quite as low; some of the goods imported by the private traders are very much debased in quality; they call them by the same denominations, but they are totally inferior to the Company's goods, which are made up to a certain standard, and a certain length and breadth; we can buy those goods with very little examination from their uniform quality, upon the Company's description of them, the Company's mark, the characters they give them; they are very ably classed; the same denomination of goods are divided into letters, and we can write to our correspondents abroad, and state a particular article, letter A. B. C. or D. and the person can, with full confidence, order, if we tell him the mark, and say what class or letter he will have; that has not been done in the private trade.

You mean by debasement, a species of goods of an inferior quality, adapted for the consumption of the lower class of people?—I mean, that they are very inferior goods, and sold at an inferior price; goods of the lowest price.

There is no other debasement, there is no dishonesty practised?—No; but we cannot depend upon the quality of those goods at all; we buy them with our eyes open; we go and examine them previously; but I would not write to Hull or Liverpool, and say buy 500 bales, or one bale of such a class, I must go down to examine them.

Will not goods that are likely to be sold at the country ports be as open to inspection as they are when sold in London?—I suppose they will be, or they will not find any buyers if they will not allow them to look at the goods.

If the system was so much altered, as that foreigners were content to have their goods by order, have not the sellers of the goods a character to maintain, and would they not be careful in executing those orders so as to give satisfaction?—I have no doubt every respectable merchant would act to the best of his judgment, and would give very faithful advice to his correspondents; but there would be a great difficulty in describing those goods; when the Company print a price-current, the goods are classed and put in letters, they are described from all the different facts, perhaps there will be twenty sorts of battaes; we know by practice what they are, and we can correspond with people abroad, and give them those accounts which would be quite impracticable with private trade.

Do not you know that goods, assuming the same name in the east, differ very much in quality?—Very much.

If they differ very much in quality, there must be some manufacturers that make a debased article?—There are the individual private traders; I could elucidate what I am stating, by saying, at the Company's sales we give for the battaes manufactured at some manufactories, 12s. perhaps, to the East India Company, when we purchase battaes in the private trade, at from 7s. to 7s. 6d., so that I mean to shew we could not fairly describe those goods.

Are not you of opinion, that the goods imported from the east are sometimes sold in large quantities, more than the usual quantity some years?—Yes; they fluctuate very much.

Suppose three times the usual quantity were offered at their sales, would not the prices be very much depressed?—Certainly; I look upon it, the price is regulated by the quantity of goods brought to market, and the state of the demand.

Would not that depression very much affect the home manufactures?—Those goods, I believe I explained, were all exported when the home manufactures are depressed; they are depressed; they keep pace pretty much with each other; the home manufactured goods have advanced, I believe I speak within compass, when I say 20 per cent. within the last few months; and there has been a very trifling rise in the Company's goods, even after the sale.

You attribute that to the East India goods being for exportation, and the goods made here being for home consumption?—Yes.

Are you not of opinion, that under all the advantages stated by you, of ordering goods to be purchased at the Company's sales, and the disadvantages which would attend ordering similar goods to be purchased at the out-ports, the port of London would always have the preference?—I believe I stated that I thought so, because there was a greater choice in the port of London; greater assortments of the Company's goods will also be sold in the port of London; they are of a very respectable quality, and command attention of the buyers.

Are you of opinion, therefore, that any material injury can arise to the interests, either of the Company or the port of London, from opening the trade to the out-ports?—As a dealer in piece-goods, I am of opinion, material confusion would be occasioned by it, and goods of bad qualities may sell at nominal low prices at the out-ports, and may have an influence upon the prices of goods sold at the Company's sales; if those goods were all exposed to sale in London, they would find their level; people would examine them and pay according to the quality; there could be no misrepresentations then.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT, the Company's Accountant General, was examined.

He proved the amount of the pecuniary engagements which the Company have to discharge annually in England, and their means of discharging them.

State what may now be the amount of the pecuniary engagements on account of the Indian territory, which the Company have to discharge annually in England?—The Company will probably have to pay for interest on the Indian debt, 1,500,000l. a year; and I judge they will have to pay that sum, because the rate of exchange is so advantageous, that though the persons who will be entitled to receive the bills in the first instance may not be inclined to remit, still there will be persons who will purchase those bills, perhaps at a premium, for remittances. The Company will have to remit for the pay of military retired officers in England 200,000l. a year; they will have to pay for passage of military to India, political freight and demurrage 150,000l. per annum; the Company will have to pay for political charges general a sum equal to 230,000l.; they will helve to pay to the pay office general on account of recruiting about 300,000l. a year; they will have to pay for interest on the Carnatic debts when they shall be all liquidated, 136,000l. a year; they will have to pay for interest and for the sinking fund on the loan of two millions and a half, an annual sum to the amount of 242,820l.; these several sums will amount to 2,758,820l.

State what may be the annual amount of the exports made by the Company in goods and stores, for which the returns must be made to England?—The Company have hitherto exported to the extent of one million nine hundred thousand and odd hundred pounds.

Upon what average do you take this?—I think upon the average of the three last years.

Does that statement include the exports both to India and to China?—Certainly; but I presume that in future, if the private traders should much interfere with the Company, a very considerable reduction must take place in the Company's exports; and therefore I assume, that they will only export to the amount of one million and a half, annually.

What is the annual amount of the bills drawn by the governments in India on the Company at home in favour of the commanders and officers of the Company's ships?—That question I cannot exactly answer; because I think in future the commanders and officers will not require the draft they have formerly done; if they have money to return in the shape of bills, they will purchase the bills that will be in the market of India; but the case will be otherwise in China; the commanders and officers there probably may take the full allowance, which is 5,000l. per ship, amounting to 80,000l. per year.

Do you conceive that a due and punctual discharge of the pecuniary engagements you have described, is essential to the welfare of the Company?—Unquestionably so.

For the discharge of all these obligations, amounting to upwards of 4,000,000l., in what manner will the funds be most securely and conveniently remitted from India to the Company in England?—I conceive by goods, on the Company's account.

Describe what are chiefly the goods through which the Company derive the funds before mentioned, as being remitted home for the discharge of the pecuniary obligations incumbent upon them?—The Company receive by means of the tea trade, in the prime cost of the goods, and the profit upon the goods, 2,536,000l. a year; in like manner the Company, by their investment of piece goods, realising the prime cost and the profit, after deducting the customs, charges, and freight, receive 967,000l.; and by raw silk, in like manner, they would realise about 4.77,000l.

Upon what average are those taken?—Upon the actual amount of the last year's sales, they are rather larger than the sales of former years.

Have you enumerated all the articles?—There are other articles sold at the Company's sales, but they are very trifling.

What is the total of the produce in England of articles sold at the Company's gales?—About four millions.

Does the produce of the articles sold at the Company's sales amount to the sum of their pecuniary engagements, as stated by you?—They fall short nearly 300,000l.

You stated yesterday, that the produce of the articles sold at the sales of the Company fell short of their pecuniary engagements by a sum amounting nearly to 300,000l.; explain the cause of this apparent difference?—The cause I conceive to arise from the very large drafts that will be made upon the Company to pay interest upon the Indian debt, being as stated a million and a half a year; this sum is in a great degree new; the annual amount perhaps previous to this period has not exceeded 500,000l. for interest, and it is not to be expected that the commercial profits of the Company, or any thing arising out of the trade, can find a sum to pay an annual sum of a million. In answering the question I did not advert to a circumstance that I ought; in showing the amount that was to be realized from the sales of the articles stated, and comparing that with the amount that the Company would be called upon to pay, I did not advert at all to the extra quantity of goods that ought to be invested in India, in consequence of those payments being transferred from India to England, and in consequence of that circumstance there appeared to be that deficiency; but I conceive if we could find vend for the goods that would be additionally purchased by those funds so taken there would be no deficiency, but that is still matter of doubt; if the private traders under new regulations should interfere very much with the Company's regular trade, there must be a deficiency, I conceive, or the Company must revert to this circumstance, which will certainly be highly detrimental to the nation; they must be obliged to reduce their exports of the raw materials of the country, and the woollens of the country, in some degree; they cannot afford to benefit the country to the extent they have if they cannot find a return for the goods they send out.

JAMES DRUMMOND, esq. a member of the House, was examined:

—You were a supracargo in the East India Company's service at Canton?—I was for 20 years.

Did your situation give you an opportunity of being well acquainted with the China trade?—I think it certainly did.

Did it also give you an opportunity of being well acquainted with the character and dispositions of the Chinese; as well acquainted as it is possible for foreigners to be, trading to that country?—Certainly, I think it did; not being admitted into that country.

Do you conceive it to be a part of their character to be extremely jealous of strangers?—Particularly so.

Have they, in consequence of that jealousy, formed any regulations for the purpose of restraining the intercourse of strangers with the natives of that country?—There are various regulations of the government to restrain strangers from entering the country, as also to keep them subordinate and in proper order during the time of their remaining in the country.

Are there likewise restraints laid upon the general commerce of strangers with China, by means of the Hong merchants?—So far there are restraints, that they can deal with no other persons than the Hong merchants, a body established by the government; and strictly speaking, lawfully no stranger can deal with any other person whatever.

Have the goodness to state to the Committee in what manner the Hong merchants are security for the good behaviour of such persons as trade to that country?—Upon the arrival of any foreign ship at the port of Canton, she is not permitted either to land or to have any intercourse with the merchants of the port, until some one of the Hong merchants becomes responsible, or, as it is termed, security for the ship; when that is accepted by the government, they are then permitted to land their cargoes, and to deal with any one of those Hong merchants that they think proper.

Have the goodness to state to the Committee in what manner in China the natives of any particular nation are considered as responsible for the acts of all others of that nation?—It has generally been considered by the supracargoes resident in China, that the chief of the factory is responsible for the acts of all those persons belonging to his nation, though I cannot exactly declare positively that it would be considered so by the government; but it is a generally received opinion, and certainly in more instances than one the government have declared, that they would hold the chief responsible; but I believe it has never been brought to a trial to ascertain whether they would or not.

Under such circumstances, is it very necessary that there should be the strictest controul exercised by the chief over all other persons of his nation trading to China?—I should consider it indispensible for the security of the trade with China.

Can you state to the Committee what are the principal exports from this country to China?—Woollens and metals, I believe, are the sole exports of the Company; what the commanders and officers take are trifling articles, hardware, Prussian blue, skins of various kinds, and various other trifling articles that I do not at present recollect; but metals and woollens are the principal exports from this country.

Have the goodness to state how long woollens have, to any great extent, been exported from this country to China?—I think, to any great extent, the woollens had not been exported from this country before the Commutation Act in 1785; but since that it has been an increasing trade; at times however, subject to check, and the quantities obliged to be reduced.

Will you state whether, in your opinion, the introduction of woollens to a considerable extent in China, has or has not been wholly owing to the exertions of the Company?—Entirely, I should conceive; and unless in the hands of one individual, or in the hands of a great company, it would have been impossible for woollens ever to have found an advantageous sale in China.

Be kind enough to state, what are the difficulties and impediments that the Company have had to encounter, in introducing the sale of woollens into the Chinese empire?—The Chinese are a people very much addicted to their own customs and manners, disliking change extremely; of course every new article experiences considerable difficulty in the sale; the Chinese wearing skins and their own manufactures, which suited them better, generally speaking, before the introduction of woollens; they at first did not purchase the woollens with that avidity which might perhaps have been expected from the superiority of the manufacture; time, however, got the better of this prejudice, the emperor having allowed, at the time of the embassy, the court dresses to be made of cloth, they became, consequently, more general in their wear throughout the empire; still the cost being very considerable, by the inland transport from the southern port of Canton to Pekin, about 12 or 1300 miles, the sale has experienced very great difficulty; the coarser cloths, long ells, of which a very considerable quantity are used in China, are principally for the lower classes; the prices being rather beyond what they can afford, the sales of them have been extremely difficult; they have often remained for one or two years in the warehouses of the Hong merchants totally unsaleable; I think these are the principal difficulties which the Company have experienced in introducing the woollens into China.

Have the goodness to state what has been the nature of the contracts with the Hong merchants, by means of which the Company have forced the sale of woollen in the Chinese empire?—The Company finding it difficult to dispose of their woollens in the open market, as was usual in trade, have found it expedient to make contracts the preceding year for the delivery of the woollens expected in the ensuing; in doing this, they invariably contract with the merchants for a quantity of tea, equivalent to the amount of the woollens, or nearly so; and certainly a considerable advance, perhaps, is allowed to the merchant upon the teas, as an inducement to him to contract for the woollens, by which the Hong merchant was, generally speaking, I believe, for the twenty years I resided in China, nearly commonly, or almost invariably, a loser.

Do you know whether other nations which trade to China have endeavoured to introduce woollens into that country?—They have; the French, the Dutch, and I think the Trieste Company, or the Ostend Company (I believe it was called the Trieste Company), have all, at times, imported woollens into China; and, except the Dutch, I think the whole of them had given up the trade prior to their exclusion from the port of Canton at the commencement of the French war.

Can you state what is the reason they have given up that attempt to introduce woollens?—I conclude, from its being a losing concern.

Have the goodness to state, what, or whereabouts, is the amount of the import of woollens from this country to China, at this time, by the Company?—I cannot speak positively since I left China, which is six years ago; but, at that time, it was either very nearly, or perhaps exceeding a million sterling.

Have the goodness to state, whether, in your opinion, the confidence the Chinese have in the honour of the Company has not been one great cause of the successful introduction of woollens into that country, I mean their honour and honesty with respect to the quality of the woollens they introduce?—Most undoubtedly; and as a proof of it, the bales of woollens pass throughout the empire unopened or unexamined in any way whatever, when having the Company's mark on them.

Has not the knowledge which private traders have of the confidence of the Chinese in the marks of the Company, induced them in many instances to forge those marks?—I cannot speak positively with respect to individuals; but I think I recollect, that at one stage of the trade, the French Company did attempt it, and introduced a considerable number of bales with the Company's mark upon them; it was discovered, however, and I believe never again repeated.

Do you know, that in the commencement of the woollen trade in China, the Company sustained considerable losses?—As far as I recollect, from the records of the Company, certainly they did, though at times I believe they made considerable profits; particularly, and I believe I may say always, upon camlets; but their losses upon long ells have at times been very considerable, to the amount, I believe, of one, two, and three hundred thousand pounds a year.

Considering these losses of the Company, is it your opinion, that in the hands of private traders that importation into China could possibly have succeeded?—Certainly not; I think it would have been totally impracticable; could those accommodations not have been afforded to the Hong merchants, by taking payment in teas, and by the advance of money at periods when the Hong merchants were in distress, for the purpose of conducting their current business, and for the payment of the imperial duties, which has been the practice of the Company, I firmly believe that the Hong merchants never would have consented to have taken the Company's woollens, nor consequently would they have purchased them of individuals, it being a losing concern.

Be kind enough to state, whether private individuals trading to China, would not have saved to a very large amount, by importing bullion rather than woollens?—Taking woollens generally, I should say yes; camlets and broad-cloths, perhaps, might yield a profit, but certainly long ells, being the principal part of the export of woollens from this country, and by which considerable loss has been sustained; bullion would have been a very considerable saving to individuals trading with China.

In the event of a free trade being opened between this country and China, do not you think that one of the effects would be to establish a monopoly in the hands of the Hong merchants, which would enable them in a great measure, to fix the prices both of the exports and imports?—My opinion on that point is perfectly decided; I consider that a free trade with China would produce one of two effects, either the total loss of the trade from the misconduct of the seamen, or probably of the persons conducting the trade itself, by the exclusion of the English from the port of Canton by the emperor, or that the present advantages derived from that trade would be lost to this country, and thrown into the hands of the Chinese; the body of Hong merchants are already, in point of fact, a monopoly, being appointed by the emperor to the exclusive trade with foreigners; and the mischief that might have been expected to result from such a monopoly has only been prevented by the power and influence of the Company, in supporting or in playing off one merchant against another; this I think could not happen where there were a variety of interests, and no combined or concentrated efforts to keep the Hong merchants in order; that the Hong merchants finding no general or combined opposition would, as they have it in their power, affix prices both to the imports and exports of China; that, consequently, the woollen trade would be lost, as it would no longer yield any profit; that the tea also would either be deteriorated, or the prices enhanced, so as to give to China the profits which at present are derived by the Company and the country at large.

You have stated, that the monopoly of the Hong merchants has been counteracted by the power and influence of the Company; do you think that the Hong merchants, at present, are willing to submit to great sacrifices to ensure the support and aid of the Company, the question referring to commercial sacrifices?—I should think that they would no longer submit to commercial sacrifices than as it was profitable to themselves; that the trade of the Company affording them a profit, they are at times certainly ready to make sacrifices to the East India Company, and invariably have, I believe, taken off all goods sent to China on experiment by the Company at the prime cost, although probably in the market they would not have sold for one I half their value.

Can you state, whether the Americans have not attempted to introduce manufactures into China, when specie has been scarce in America?—I think I recollect, during my residence in China, several in-stances of American ships importing the woollens of this country; the adventure, however, not turning out to their expectations profitably, it has not, to the best of my knowledge, ever been repeated by the same persons.

Can you state whether woollens are not subject to a very heavy duty in China?—Camlets pay a duty of nearly the prime cost in this country; the duties on broad cloth are considerable, I think; but I do not exactly recollect the proportion of long ells, though I believe the duty is equal to about 12 or 15 per cent.

As the smuggling of woollens into China might be highly advantageous to individuals, do you not think, that in the event of a free trade, it is probable individuals would endeavour to evade the Chinese duties, and smuggle them into that country?—In the article of camlets, I think they would; for until the regulations of the Company were extremely rigid, there was a considerable contraband trade in their own ships of that article; and which at times, from detection, has caused very serious losses to the security merchants of the ship from which they were so smuggled; nearly indeed to the loss of his whole fortune, and even to the risk of his life.

You have stated that officers of the East India Company have here to fore been en- gaged in the smuggling of woollens; have the goodness to state, whether the general trade to China was endangered by those attempts of the officers of the Company?—In some degree, I think it was; and frequent repetitions of the same practices might, I think, have lost us the trade altogether.

State to the Committee whether, in your opinion, the opening of the trade between this country and China would not be attended with a rise in the price of teas in China?—I think that question is already answered in a former reply, where I mentioned, that the inevitable consequence of the opening of the trade would be the deterioration of the tea, or an enhancement of its price.

Have the goodness to state to the Committee, how it has happened that the mis-chiefs you apprehend from an open trade have not resulted from the American commerce with China?—The Americans, I think, have reaped the advantages of the East India Company's exclusive trade to China; that by the Company establishing an annual price for teas, of almost every description, those are not often during that season increased by individual purchasers; but in those articles in which the Company do not trade, and which form part of the cargoes of the American ships, the prices are, I believe, nearly double from the commencement of the American; trade with China.

Have the goodness to state, whether upon occasions of the rules of trade laid down by the Chinese having been infringed, they have not threatened to exclude the English from that country?—They certainly have been threatened with the anger of the emperor, and an exclusion from the port, if they did not conform to the laws and regulations of it.

Do you think that the opening of the trade between this country and China would, in all probability, be followed by the smuggling of tea into this country to a considerable extent?—I conceive, that certainly the opening of the trade might give greater facilities to the smuggling of teas than at present exist; that the size of the ships would enable them to go into any of the small ports of the kingdom; and moreover, the captains of the Company's ships being liable to dismissal from the service, if going into any port whatsoever before they arrive in the Downs unless by consultation of their officers they can prove an absolute want of anchors and cables; of course, no opportunities to smuggling are afforded to them prior to their arrival in the Downs, whereas the coasts in both channels would be open to the ships of free trade.

The tonnage allotted to the captains and officers of the East India Company is very small compared with the whole importation from China; is it not?—I believe the allowances to captains and officers of the ships are nearly a hundred tons in each ship; the proportion, of course, will depend upon the size of the ship.

With the exception of the tonnage allowed to the captain and officers, do you not consider the cargoes from China, under the present system, as entirely secured against smuggling?—I should think that would scarcely require an answer; the Company are so much beyond every charge of being engaged in any practice of that kind, it is hardly necessary to answer that question; certainly, I conceive it is perfectly secure.

Do not you consider that the fear of being dismissed from the Company's service, is a considerable check upon smuggling], even with respect to that part of the tonnage which belongs to the captains and officers of the Company?—I certainly think it is.

Do not you consider, that in the event of a free trade, the increase of the number of ships, as well as the diminution of their size, would increase the danger and facilitate the operations of smuggling?—I think my former answer went to that effect; that it certainly would.

State to the Committee, whether teas may not be procured at Manilla, and in many of the eastern islands, as cheap as in China, and with the same facility?—Certainly; frequently cheaper.

The duty upon tea in this country being 95 per cent. do you not think, that if private traders were suffered to go among the eastern islands, it is probable they might be induced to purchase teas with a view to smuggling them into this country?—I think that is very probable.

Having already slated, that you thought in the event of a free trade, our commerce with China might be endangered by the misbehaviour of the seamen and crews of the ships; state to the Committee, whether the Chinese laws respecting homicide are not extremely severe, and what those laws are?—I believe sir George Staunton could have answered that question better than myself; in fact, the laws are ex- tremely severe, and I believe, in one intance alone excepted (which has occurred since I left the country), blood for blood has been invariably required.

Have the goodness to state, whether blood for blood is not required in cases where the murderer cannot be discovered?—It has generally been supposed so; but I should conceive that the Chinese are too just to demand it, if they were satisfied that the murderer could not be discovered; although it might be difficult, certainly, to satisfy them upon that head.

Has not the trade with China been endangered from the misconduct of the seamen in the Company's service, notwithstanding the unremitted exertion of the great power entrusted to the Company's servants to keep them in order?—Very frequently; and scarcely a year passed during my residence in China, in which the supracargoes were not apprehensive of being embroiled in disputes with the Chinese government, in consequence of the riotous behaviour and misconduct of the seamen of our ships.

If private ships were permitted to go from this country to China, without the strong controuling power of the Company, do you think it would be possible to prevent such crimes being committed, through the irregularities of the British sailors, as would endanger and interrupt the trade between this country and China?—I think it would be extremely difficult, though the appointment of a consul might, in some measure, remove those difficulties, by his having a controuling power over all British seamen in the port.

Do you think that any controuling power which could be granted to a consul at Canton would be equally effectual with the power at present exercised by the Company, either for the protection of British subjects trading to that country, or restraining them from misconduct?—A consul, not possessing the commercial influence which is possessed by the supracargoes of the East India Company, I think, in his negociations with the Chinese government, which are invariably carried on through the merchants, he would not have the same advantages as are at present possessed by the supracargoes.

Do you think that there is any difference between British and American seamen, as to their conduct in the ports of China, and as to the apprehensions that may be entertained of irregularities that may be committed by them?—I think my observation went, during my residence in China, to satisfy myself that the American seamen were, generally, more orderly than the seamen of our own ships; which I certainly ascribe to the profits of the American trade being very considerable, enabling the proprietors of their ships to give a much higher pay than is customary in ships from this country; and not un-frequently, I believe, the seamen have been concerned to a small extent in the adventure; this, however, may vary in the event of a war with America, as at present happens, when her navy would acquire, and probably obtain her picked seamen, and her merchant vessels would then be compelled to have recourse to men of worse character, as I believe to be the case with respect to our own ships at the present moment, the owners of our own ships being frequently obliged to take men from gaols, and desperate characters of every description, for the purpose of manning their ships on leaving this country.

Have the goodness to state to the committee what, in your opinion, has been the cause that the China trade has been so lucrative to the Americans?—I should consider, that the advantages which they may have derived from that trade, have been very much owing to their being enabled to carry it on with bullion.

Has not the circumstance of the wars in Europe, likewise, contributed extremely to enhance their profits, on account of their facilities in supplying the Continent?—For several years prior to my leaving China, the Americans were in the habit of having three or four ships annually destined to the ports of Europe, for the supply, I presume, of the Dutch, and of all the north of Europe; and of which, at the restoration of peace, or at present, in consequence of the war with Great Britain, they will certainly be deprived.

If private ships from this country were permitted to go without restraint to the eastern islands, do you apprehend atrocities might be committed by private adventurers in those extensive seas, where there are no European settlements, that might injure the natives and affect the British character?—I think it not improbable that it might be so, from the variety of characters which certainly would engage in a trade of that nature.

Have any instances of such atrocities, committed in other parts of the world, come to your knowledge, as to have led you to form the opinion you have stated in your last answer?—Reports, certainly, have been circulated in China, at different times, of the misconduct of some of our smaller vessels trading in the skin trade to the north west coast of America, of the truth of which, however, I can bring no positive proof, although, I believe, that at the time I had reason to suppose they were not altogether groundless.

From your knowledge of the China trade and the Chinese character, are you of opinion that the present system, under which it is carried on, is the most, advantageous and safe for this country?—I conceive, that any person acquainted with China cannot have a doubt of its being more advantageous to Great Britain that it should be continued on its present system.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Have you any acquaintance with the nature of the trade that has been carried on between the north-west coast of America and China?—I think I have.

Are you of opinion that an advantageous traffic could be carried on circuitously from this country, taking the north west coast of America, in the first instance, and thence prosecuting the adventure to China or India?—I believe that various speculations have been entered into from this country to the north west coast of America, and which have ended either in China or India, and seldom, I believe, to the advantage of those concerned; and I know of no instance where it has been repeated a second time by the same person or persons.

Was not that experiment made by a Mr. Cox, who had been long resident in China, and must have been intimately acquainted with the most advantageous mode of carrying it on?—I should have said in my former answer, that there was also a direct trade from China to the north west coast of America, and which, I believe, was carried on for several years in the infancy of the trade, and was then, I believe, profitable; Mr. Cox certainly went from this country or from Sweden, in a vessel under Swedish colours, to the north west coast of America, and was, I believe, perfectly acquainted with that trade, but I do not believe that he persevered in it, or those with whom he was concerned; he died shortly after his arrival in China: I do not believe that that trade was conti- nued by his partners, or by those concerned with him.—Mr. Cox was long a resident in China; he was ordered home, not being permitted to remain there; he then found it necessary to obtain a foreign protection, to enable him to reside in that country, and went out to China by the north west coast of America.

May not tea be obtained from other ports of China, through Chinese junks, at inferior charges to those paid at Canton?—I think they might, as not being subject to the same export duty by the Chinese junks, to which they are when laden on foreign or European ships.

Do you know the average quantity of British tin imported by the Company into China?—I believe it has been about 300 tons, but I cannot charge my memory to state the exact quantity.

Do you know the average quantity of copper?—I think copper for several years has not been imported by the Company; copper made into small sticks to imitate the Japan copper, was for a time imported into China, and I do not exactly recollect when it was given up, but I believe it has been discontinued for some years.

Do you know whether tin is not brought from Banca to China, by Chinese junks and other conveyances?—We had very imperfect means in China of ascertaining the importations by the Chinese junks, for they belong to a variety of ports in the empire, and they are under a different department of the customs from what the foreign trade is, and therefore, we have never been able to obtain any correct statement of their imports or exports; with respect to the importation by British or other ships, I believe, for several years, it has been very trifling, but I cannot say to what extent.

MUNGO DICK, esq. was called in, and examined:

—Were you not many years a civil servant to the East India Company, at Madras?—I was; I resided for four years upon my first arrival in India at the presidency of Madras; afterwards for about 20 years in the Northern circars.—For many years I was an assistant in the commercial department, and afterwards a commercial resident.—I was for about ten years a member of the board of trade at Madras, and superintended the investments generally; my actual residence in India was 35 years.—I went out in the year 1799, with a specific appointment as member of the board of trade, and general superintendent of investment.

Had you not ample opportunities of gaining a knowledge of the commercial concerns of the Company under the Madras presidency?—I certainly had ample opportunities; whether I exactly profited by them I cannot presume to say.

Is there not a large quantity of piece goods provided in the Northern circars for the investment of the Company?—A very large one; the principal part of the Madras investment is provided in the Northern circars.

Give a summary description of the mode in which the investment is ordinarily provided on the coast of Coromandel?—The investment originates in an order from this country from the court of directors generally, specifying the quantity of goods required from each of the commercial factories, accompanied by the observations of buyers in this country upon the goods imported in the preceding year; this indent, after being reviewed by government is transmitted to the board of trade, a board composed of some of the Company's civil servants, who have usually served for a considerable time in the commercial department: this board makes a calculation of the sums required for the provision of the goods allotted to each factory. The commercial factories on the coast are 11 in number, where goods of a peculiar description, are provided, some of one kind at one factory, and another kind at another an indent in conformity to the orders of the court of directors is forwarded to each factory: when I left India, about four years ago, it was estimated, that all the factories were capable of producing goods to the amount of 24 lacks of pagodas, or a million sterling; the demand has been from five lacks to 24 lacks, in conformity to the sales in this country, whether a greater or a lesser demand. The order to a factory is accompanied with a credit on the revenue treasuries in its neighbourhood, to the extent of the indent, to be paid by instalments. The mode of providing the investment at the different factories varies; at some it is by native agency: where the weavers are not in the vicinity of the factory, the native agents are required to perform the business, who receive a certain per centage, I believe five per cent. which covers the expense of conveying the money to the different stations, bringing the goods in, and their risk of bad debts; the native agent, for that sum, will undertake to save the Company from all risk. At others stations again, where the manufacturers are more within reach, advances are made immediately to the manufacturing weavers: and it is not unusual for perhaps a village, where a hundred weavers are collected, to become security for each for the performance of their engagements: the goods advanced to them in the first instance, is generally about a quarter, not more than a quarter, sometimes less than the amount of the whole sum of the quantity of goods required; this advance is retained in the hands of the weaver, until his engagement is completed, that is to say, until three-fourths of the quantity are delivered; he is paid for every piece he brings in, in the intermediate period, keeping the original advance in his hands till three-fourths are delivered; the original advance is then worked up; the goods are contracted for upon certain samples, or musters, as we generally call them; there is a standard price, which seldom varies, for goods of the Bret quality; and upon delivery and inspection, when the piece or pieces are found not exactly equal to the standard muster, they are reduced to a lower number, with the difference of 5 per cent. between each number, that is to say, 5 per cent. is given less for No. 2 than No. 1. There are four numbers, and in the coarser assortments we have a class called rejected goods, which are generally 15 and 20 per cent. cheaper than No. 1. The rejected goods are under three different heads; rejected from deficiency in length, rejected from deficiency in breadth, and rejected from a great inferiority in quality. By taking in the rejected goods, it has been found latterly it relieves the weaver from the necessity of going about the country to sell goods which are of inferior quality, and these coming to this country under the head of rejected goods, the buyer knows what he is doing, and finds it as much worth his while to buy such goods, being at an inferior price, as those of a standard quality. The goods, after being received at the factory, are generally bleached at the station where they are manufactured; they are consigned to the presidency as opportunities occur, where they undergo an examination by the board of trade, and every tenth bale is examined piece by piece, and the observation upon the bale is transmitted, without less of time, to the different fac- tories where they were manufactured, in order to correct any defect that may appear upon this second examination; and as a check upon the commercial resident, the commercial resident is allowed a per centage upon the provision of his goods, consequently, he has no interest in lowering the price, but the contrary, the higher the price is, the more the per centage: he has no interest in making a hard bargain with the manufacturer, because the more money he invests, the greater is his gain; and in my experience, I have never found a difficulty in prevailing upon the weavers to receive the Company's money, the difficulties have always occurred at the settlement of the account.

Are the weavers compelled to enter into engagements with the Company?—On the contrary, it is considered the greatest grievance that can occur to the country, the secession of the Company's investment; it diffuses happiness throughout the country, as promoting the circulation of money, which they could not otherwise obtain; the thread is generally spun by the females of the cultivating cast of inhabitants, and consequently it circulates very widely throughout the country the money advanced on account of the investment.

Will you say whether the Madras government has enacted regulations of a nature to protect the weavers against any oppression on the part of the commercial resident or his assistants?—The Madras government have enacted regulations of the most liberal kind, extremely well calculated to protect the weavers against the possibility of oppression, were they not capable of protecting themselves.

Were the weavers to suffer any oppression from the commercial resident or his assistants or agents, by any act either directly at variance with the letter of the regulations in question, or inconsistent with their spirit, can you say whether complaints would probably be preferred by the sufferers to the government?—I have no doubt they would; but I speak more from opinion than actual observation, because those regulations are of so recent a date, that I have hardly experienced their operation, it is only within these few years; indeed they were hardly promulgated when I left Madras.

Comparing the situation of the labouring weavers with that of the other labouring classes of the Indian population, which, if either, has the advantage in point of comfort?—The weaver has the means of being more comfortable, but he has generally a very dissipated turn of mind, and squanders away with very little consideration his gains; they are very much addicted to gaming, and cook fighting, particularly, is a very favourite amusement, upon which they stake almost every thing belonging to them.

Do you conceive that these habits of dissipation arise from any defect in the existing commercial system of the Company?—They are habits of very old date; they do not arise out of any particular system; the business of the Company has added very much to their comfort if they would avail themselves of it.

You have stated in a former answer, that the weaving classes in India have the means of living more comfortably than the other labouring classes of that country; what, in point of comfort, is the general state of the Indian peasantry, as compared with the situation of the peasantry in European countries?—From my observation, they are more comfortable in every respect; their wants are fewer, and they have the means of gratifying those wants much more within their reach.—Labour is cheap, and so are also their rice and provisions of every description in proportion.

Do the wages of labour which the Indian people receive, fully supply their wants?—Fully; the wages vary very much in different parts of the country; for instance, at the presidency, where labour is dear, provisions are also dearer than in the interior; the one seems to regulate the other in all parts of the country I have been in.

During your experience, have you observed whether any change either in the way of improvement or otherwise, has taken place in the condition of that part of the native population who are employed by the Company?—I think, generally, their situation has improved; but speaking particularly of the manufacturers, it is impossible to a great degree to improve their situation; for instance, a weaver after getting his advance, resorts to the weekly markets all over the country to procure materials for his web, and after having procured what he thinks will be requisite for the piece of cloth in his loom, he too often expends what may remain in a cockfight, or any other gambling game that is to be found in the market.

Can you state whether there are any native merchants at Madras, or in the Northern Circars, who would be able to provide for private traders such an investment as the Company procure?—Private traders would find in every village, agents perfectly prepared to receive their money at all times; but I think the private agent would generally be disappointed in his expectation of goods of standard quality; when they were delivered he would find them very inferior to what he expected; it is the study of the commercial servants, and their only labour almost, to prevent and to counteract the abuses of the native agents when they are employed as well as the manufacturers.

What is the nature of the abuses to which you allude?—The nature of the abuses is furnishing goods of a quality very inferior to the standard on which the contract was made.

Do you mean to imply that the manufacturers would seek an unfair advantage in dealing with private traders?—Certainly, they would take every opportunity of imposing upon the uninformed.

Are such piece-goods as the Company import, to be purchased in India ready made, or without previous arrangement?—It frequently occurs that the private agent tempts a weaver to sell from his loom at an increased price, the goods that he has previously manufactured with the Company's money, and by their order a previous advance is uniformly required; unless the private agent can find his way into the manufacturing villages, and obtain there goods by giving an advance of price, it is impossible to provide an investment to any extent.

Can you state whether in the intervals of regular employment in the business of weaving, the weavers betake themselves to other means of providing themselves with subsistence?—Certainly they have other means of subsistence; they sometimes turn cultivators, and the manufacture of cloths, for the use of the inhabitants, gives them employment to a certain extent, so far the population benefits, and they can provide those cloths much cheaper; the Company's investment tends to increase the price of labour and the rate of every thing of which a piece of cloth is composed.

Can you state whether the weavers in India form a distinct class or cast?—Certainly no man becomes a weaver who is not born a weaver, whose father was not a weaver before him. There are two classes of weavers, they are perfectly distinct from the ether classes of inhabitants, as much so as the Brahmin and the Sooder.

Does it ever happen, that persons not born weavers betake themselves to the employment of weaving?—It very rarely happens; in all my experience I never knew an instance of it.

Were the commercial system of the Company entirely superseded, would you consider such an event as advantageous to the weaving classes of India?—I think it would be ruinous to the weaving classes.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Are all persons born weavers employed as such?—If they can find employment as weavers, certainly they would go to no other trade; they are sometimes from necessity obliged to take to labour in the field; but a person born a weaver will naturally become a weaver if he can find employment.

Is there not a very large proportion of the persons so born weavers employed in agricultural pursuits?—I hardly know an instance of a weaver taking to any other employment, except from positive necessity, from a stoppage of the Company's investment, or from some other cause.

Have not the Company's investments of piece-goods from Madras at times been suspended?—Yes, in my time frequently; during a former war there was no investment, I think from 1780 until 1787; for seven or eight years there was no investment at all, and very great distress was the consequence.—There have been several occasions in which they were suspended, but I cannot exactly remember dates; but during the war with Hyder Ally particularly.—The last war, when the capture of Seringapatam took place, was of so short duration, that the investment was very soon renewed: the investment has been suspended at various times during my residence in India; the records of the Company would best shew the periods.

Was any difficulty found in reviving the investment, when the Madras government were disposed so to do?—Certainly, great difficulties were experienced at the outset, but those in the course of time were removed; the weavers for a time being unaccustomed to make goods of standard quality, were less attentive to their business than when the investment was uniformly provided; the commercial servants having less experience, were less calculated to check the abuses that creep into the provision of an investment.

What is the state of the pecuniary cir- cumstances of the weavers, generally, under the Madras presidency?—As comfortable as their dissipated habits will admit.

What may they earn monthly each?—The investment is provided from Cape Comorin to Ganjam, a distance, I believe, of 1,500 miles, where the price of labour varies so much from the price of provisions being higher or lower, that it is impossible to say, distinctly, what a weaver earns monthly; but from my own observations I can state, that a weaver is more comfortable in his circumstances than the other classes of the inhabitants of the same level.

Cannot you form an opinion of the probable amount earned by the weavers generally?—No, I cannot; but I am persuaded that it is equal to a comfortable subsistence; the price of labour in different places varies so much, I cannot speak to the sum; but it is their own fault if they are in want when the Company's investment is on foot.

What is the penalty attached to a breach of contract with the Company, on the part of the weavers?—The penalty attached is the redaction of price; if he delivers his goods agreeable to the sample he gets a higher price, if they are inferior of course he gets less; but it is impossible that a weaver can work to a positive loss, as he has seldom any property of his own, and depends almost entirely upon the advances that are made to him.

Then is the Committee to understand that the weavers have the means of a comfortable subsistence for themselves and families only, and nothing beyond that?—They will not suffer themselves to have much beyond that, for it is generally dissipated in various ways; any thing that they get beyond their subsistence is lost in cock-fighting or in some other gambling game.

Is it usual to place peons over the weavers to quicken their deliveries of goods?—I believe that is admitted by the Regulations, but very seldom practised; because it would be unavailing, it would be taking from the weaver the money given to him; for a peon never goes to the house of a native without a commission at the same time to exact a sum equal to the expenditure for his daily food, commonly called batta.

What is the usual sum so exacted per diem?—It is impossible to say, because it varies; in different parts of the country it is equal perhaps to a seer of rice, and that varies in price so much; it is a halfpenny in one place, a penny in another, and three-pence in another, perhaps.

Can you inform the Committee of the nature of the spinning business in those countries where so many piece-goods are made, how the thread is prepared?—The thread is prepared, generally, by the female population at large, by the poorer classes of females, by the purchase of cotton at their weekly markets, and selling the produce of the labour of the week at the succeeding market; this is done in so simple a stile, and with so much attention to economy, that the weaver, perfectly well acquainted with the price of the raw material, seldom affords to the spinner more than he thinks a just return for the labour of the week; and that matter is so well understood among the weavers, generally, that no weaver, for the sake of getting a larger quantity of thread, will outbid his neighbour in the purchase of it; but the business of spinning circulates the money advanced for investment, throughout the country, amongst the description of people most in need of it, the females of the families of cultivators, the lower classes of inhabitants; it is a great resource.

Have not the females of decayed families, who have little means of employing themselves from the secluded nature of their lives, recourse likewise to this mode of assisting themselves?—They certainly have, and it is the great means of giving subsistence to the lowest classes of inhabitants, and they perhaps suffer more than; the weaver in the times of suspension of the investment; I consider the provision of the Company's investment to be a blessing very generally diffused through the country, and depriving them of. it, would be depriving them almost of the means of living in certain seasons.

Do you not conceive this species of manufacture, the spinning, not only to extend very generally through those countries, but to employ a very great number of the females of the country?—Very great; speaking of the part of the country where I have long been, almost every female of the lower classes earns more or less in the course of a week by spinning.

What should you think of a system that should introduce machinery, so as to preclude the labour of that class of persons?—I think it would be very severely felt; in all the parts of India where I have resided, I do not think it could be introduced to advantage, so simple is the business of spinning, and so small their expences of living; but it would be most severely felt if it could be introduced: the season of cultivation only extends to a certain number of months in the year; there are other: times when many of the inhabitants have no means of subsistence but by spinning.

Do you conceive, that if this resource failed them, there is any other branch of industry in that country to which those females could turn themselves?—I think it would be more difficult in India than any other country in the world, to turn to any profession to which they have not been brought up; and the employments are fewer; I do not know of any whatever to which they could turn themselves.

Then you conceive that the discontinuance of the cloth manufacture of those countries, manufactures which have existed through so many ages, would be of essential prejudice to the poorer classes of inhabitants in general?—The discontinuance would certainly be of essential prejudice; and any other system of provision; that would enhance the price of the goods would certainly be the means of that evil which is so much to be dreaded; if the price was enhanced, they would be no longer saleable in this country; it is only by their being provided so cheaply, that they are saleable here.

If it should be found possible to introduce yarn thread spun from any other country into those parts, what would you suppose to be the effect upon the poorer part of the population, both male and female?—What I have already mentioned; and I think it would be the duty of government to prohibit the importation of thread into that country, were it possible.

Are you acquainted with the mode of raising and preparing the cotton for the manufacture?—Not sufficiently to give any distinct account of it; in the Northern Circars, the principal part of the cotton consumed in the investment is raised in the country: we frequently get supplies from the interior by a class of people called Monjaries, who bring cotton from the interior and take their returns in salt; but the cotton raised in the country is generally preferred, by the cotton being more pure and suiting their manufacture better; it is a very precarious crop.

Do you understand in what manner the cotton is cleaned and prepared?—It is by a very simple process; it is cleaned by the hand; there are two processes, the first process is to separate it from the seed by three cylinders that go different ways; the cotton with the seed is introduced between these cylinders moving closely together, by which means the cotton is drawn out and the seed is left behind it; that is a sort of hand-mill which every person has in his house; and the second process is a sort of bow, something like what the hatters use in this country for preparing the wool for making hats, that strikes against the cotton and separates all the dust and seeds that may remain after it has undergone the process of the wheel.

Is the raising of cotton in that country pretty general?—Every cultivator allots some spots of ground to the cultivation of cotton, but as it is a precarious crop, he prefers some others; it is productive when the season is good, but a little too much or too little rain destroys it.

Who are the persons employed in cleaning the cotton?—The first process is done by every person who spins; the second process by the bow is done by a particular class of persons; it is very remarkable in a country where there are so many species of Hindoos, that it is by a species of Mussulmen, he is not a Mussulman but approaches nearly to them; there are one or two such persons in every village; he performs two duties, cleaning cotton and making thread that the threads pass through in the weaving.

If by introducing ready made thread into the country, all the spinners now employed in that branch should be deprived of that employment, could their labour be turned in any way to the raising or cleaning of the article of cotton, so as to provide subsistence for them?—I think not; for there are many females that could not quit their own house; in their secluded habits, they would not resort to a large place, to which all descriptions of persons had access; it would be hurtful to their feelings, and inconsistent with their habits, to expose themselves so much to public, view.

Mr. EDWARD VENN was called in, and examined.

—You are a tea broker?—Yes, I have been such upwards of 30 years.

Is it within your knowledge, that at Canton the Company's supracargoes have the first choice of the teas?—I have always understood so, and it is so understood among the tea buyers.

To whom is it understood that the teas not so chosen by the supracargoes are afterwards disposed of?—Of late years to the Americans.

When teas are imported, how are their qualities here ascertained, if any be damaged?—If discovered previous to their being on public show for the inspection of the brokers to be so, they are pointed out to us by the Company's servants when they come on show, and then we examine them more minutely.

State about the degree of their variations, taking the leading sorts?—Bohea tea is the lowest, from 1s. 6d. to 2s. 6d.; and Congou tea from 2s. 6d. to 3s. 10d.; Souchong tea from 3s. up to 5s. 6d.; Cam-poi tea from 3s. to 3s. 10d.; Souchong tea from 3s. 7d. to 5s. 6d.; and Pekoe tea from 5s. to 5s. 9d.; those prices vary probably at each sale in a small degree. As to green teas, Singlo from 3s. 3d. to 3s. 8d.; Twankay the same; Hyson skin from 3s. 3d. to 4s. 3d.; Hyson tea from 4s. 6d. to 6s.; Gunpowder from about 5s. to 7s. The duty at present upon tea is what is called an ad valorem duty. From 95 to 96; 95 the excise duty, with the custom nearly 96.

Looking to those various sorts you have described, with the various nice distinctions and subdivisions of each sort, do you think that that ad valorem duty could be exchanged for a rated duty according to those various sorts?—I should think not.

Could any person, do you think, not so practised as you have described it necessary to be, in order to ascertain those various distinctions, be capable of making them sufficiently for the purpose of rated duties?—Certainly not.

Would, in your opinion, an attempt to fix rated duties upon so many various qualities lead to a very considerable and almost endless degree of detail?—I should think so. At present, the whole of the Company's teas are sold at public sale; even presents are put up to sale, in order to ascertain the duty.

Supposing that an attempt were made, to collect the duties upon the various sorts and distinctions, and shades of distinctions you have described, by a rated duty, could it be done otherwise than by a personal examination of every sort, and of every parcel?—I should think not.

During your long experience, have you reason to believe or to suspect, any other description of sale ever to have taken place at the Company's sales, than actual and bonâ fide sales?—No; there cannot possibly be a fairer mode of sale than that adopted at the East India House; the goods previous to the sale are shewn in the most fair manner possible, and with very great order and regularity, for the inspection of the buyers: nothing can be done, I think, with more precision than it is conducted.

Is it not the rule of the Company to put up their teas at the prime cost of the article including such charges as are enumerated in the act of parliament?—I have always understood so.

That, you would call then the upset-price?—Yes.

Do you know upon what degree of advance upon that price the Company make it a rule to sell?—The advance of a farthing a pound upon teas under 3s. 4d. and a half-penny advance upon all teas that sell above that price.

Whatever may be the law in point of practice, if one farthing be bid above the prime cost, and below the price you have stated, they sell?—Yes.

Is it Congou or other tea that the Americans have been in the habit of buying?—I should rather suppose green tea, for such tea is used in America; because if any exportation takes place from this country to Canada, it is principally of green tea, but I should suppose the Americans have bought more black tea than green tea, as they have supplied the continent with black tea; and in Holland, Denmark, and Sweden, and those parts they have usually, I believe, drank more black tea than green; and as they purchased, I should imagine, with a view to supply those parts, I should suppose they purchased a greater quantity of black tea than green.

Mr. THOMAS STYAN was called in, and examined:

—You are a tea broker?—I am: and have been upwards of 30 years.

Is it the understanding of your profession, or within your knowledge, that the Company's supracargoes have the offer of all the best teas at Canton?—We have always understood they have an offer of the teas at Canton in preference to any other country.

To whom have you understood such teas as they have refused are sold?—I suppose to those of other countries who have gone to China for teas, to the Americans, and to the Swedes or Danes, when they used to go there; I do not know myself.

The Danes and Swedes have ceased to be buyers for a considerable time, have they not?—The Danes four or five years, and the Swedes before that.

Your two chief classes are black and green?—Yes, they are. The black comprizes five different sorts, namely, Bohea, Congou, Campoi, Souchong, and Pekoe. The green comprizes Singlo, Twankay, Hyson skin, Hyson, Young Hyson, and Gunpowder. Each of these sorts is again subdivided into nine or ten different qualities, such as good, middling, ordinary, good, middling, flaggy, woody, dusty?—We have other descriptions, such as very ordinary; ordinary; good ordinary.

How are those distinctions determined on?—They are determined by our examination of them; first, the examination in the warehouses, then we take an average sample from the different parcels, which we try being made into tea, and we give the character of them from the observation, taking together the inspection and the tasting afterwards.

Does it require long experience and great attention to attain to a degree of judgment sufficient for the purpose of making such distinctions?—Yes, it does; we make them by the examination of them in the warehouses; they are laid open for inspection before the sales; we make our remarks upon them there, and we take a sample home.

What are your modes of examination to attain to such various and nice distinctions as you have described?—The samples are drawn by some of the Company's labourers, and are brought to us upon a tray, we look at them and smell them, after which we take a sample home, and examine them by the colours and the appearance of them again, when we assort them together, and by the flavours they possess when they are made into tea.

Looking to the various sorts, divisions, and subdivisions, the various shades and distinctions of quality as well as the gradations of prices, should you think it possible to change the mode of collecting the duty as an ad valorem duty to a rated duty upon all those various sorts and kinds, consistently with commercial convenience or precision as to value?—It would be impossible to make the duty bear equally, considering the value of the teas, in any other way than their being put up to public sale at the India House, or some other place, and inspected by the brokers, or people that have been long in the habit of dealing in the article.

Have you ever known the Company offer tea for sale, by a description to which it did not fairly belong, for the purpose of enhancing the price?—Never.

Have you ever known, in any instance, or have you any reason to suspect a single sale of their's being other than real and bonâ fide?—It has all been fairly sold; I never knew any thing taken in, or attempted to be run up in price there.

Is it the impression in your trade, that their sales are conducted consistently with every attention to integrity and honour?—Nothing can be more so than they are, I am sure.

JOHN BAINBRIDGE, esq. was called in, and examined.

—You are a general merchant?—I am.

You are connected with a firm, that carry on merchandize to a very considerable extent?—I am.

From your connections with the Americans, have you had frequent opportunities of obtaining information from them relative to their trade with India, and the cause of its success?—We have had frequent opportunities of learning, from various persons connected with America, the usual mode in which they have conducted that trade.

To what causes do you attribute the success the Americans have had, in carrying on their trade with India and China?—After the treaty known by the name of Mr. Jay's treaty, I believe the Americans very generally entered into the trade with India. I do not recollect that, previous to that time, their trade with India was of such magnitude as subsequent to the year 1793 or 1794; subsequent to the year 1794 or 1795, I believe their trade to India has increased-regularly, particularly during the times they had an opportunity of extending their commerce, as well to the Spanish and French colonies, as to that part of the continent of Europe to which this country was principally prevented enjoying a trade.

From the information you have been able to acquire upon these subjects, in conversations with Americans, do you imagine the success of their trade above alluded to has been owing to their neutral character?—Certainly; they were in a situation to avail themselves of the carrying trade to different parts of the world, from which all British connection was excluded; I conceive that they certainly did enjoy that, to a very considerable extent, subsequent to the year 1795.

Is it one of the advantages they have derived from their neutral character, that they have been enabled to trade at inferior rates of freight and insurance?—Certainly; I have understood that they send their ships to India at a much less expence than the East India Company could possibly send; and that they import their goods from thence, at a much easier rate than we receive them in this country.

Do you mean that that was owing to the circumstance of their being neutrals while we were belligerents?—They certainly have the means of fitting their vessels, from their peculiar situation, at an easier ex-pence; they have provisions and every thing necessary for the equipping their vessels, at a very cheap rate; their insurance is also very reasonable.

Has their freight also, from the same causes, been much below the rates of our freight?—Yes; I have understood from persons that I have conversed with, that their general rate of freight has been from forty to sixty dollars per ton, according to the arrangements made among the parties themselves, who were shippers from ten to twelve pounds per ton; and their shipments are generally made from America in companies: a variety of persons will join, and put in a certain sum, perhaps 10,000 or 20,000 dollars each: the shipments are generally made in specie from America, and ginseng.

Are the Committee to understand it to be your opinion, that their success has been greatly owing to the carrying trade, which if they had not engaged in, it would have been impossible for the merchants of this nation as a belligerent nation, to engage in?—I certainly think it was quite impossible for the subjects of this country, as a belligerent, to carry upon the same terms as the Americans: under the circumstances I have stated, they are enabled, by means of their neutral character, both to fit out their ships and to insure, at a less expence than British subjects could have done, whilst the country was in a state of war.

Do you think that it is probable, that if this country had been at peace during the period of the last 19 or 20 years instead of being at war, the Americans could have derived as great a profit as they ac- tually have from their trade in India?—I should have presumed they would not have had the same means of disposing of the articles they brought, from India, except as far as respected their own internal consumption, because if this country had been at peace, the same sources would not have been opened to the Americans as have been from the circumstance of our being in a state of warfare.

You have stated that, in your opinion, part of the success of the Americans has been from their supplying the Spanish colonies in America; do you think that has arisen from the differences between Spain and her colonies?—As well previous to as during the period we were at war with Spain, a very considerable trade has always been carried on between America and the Spanish colonies; indeed it always will be necessarily so, because they have the means of supplying the Spanish colonies with those articles which they absolutely want from their situation; consequently they introduced a variety of articles which, in a time of peace, would not have been permitted to be introduced into the Spanish colonies: I understand they have made considerable shipments of Indian produce to the Spanish colonies during the war, and for which they received their return as they do for provisions; I understand almost always in specie or in produce.

Is it your opinion that, in consequence of the differences between Spain and her colonies, the commercial intercourse between America and the Spanish colonies has been increased?—Yes, I should apprehend it has, very considerably.

State how the circumstance of their obtaining bullion in the Spanish colonies in return for provisions is of importance to them in carrying on the Indian trade?—It certainly is of importance, inasmuch as they are enabled to make shipments of specie from America to the East Indies, being an article necessary to get their return cargoes from India and from China.

Have you any reason to believe that one of the causes of the success of the Americans in the East India trade, has been a clandestine trade with our West Indian colonies?—I think there is a very considerable trade, a natural and legitimate trade, between India and America, for their own consumption: I conceive so very particularly from the house, in which I have been engaged both previous to my being in partnership and in the early part of the period of my being in the house in which I was brought up, having made very considerable exports of East India piece-goods to America, from perhaps fifty to one hundred thousand pounds a year; but from the year 1791 or 1795, although our correspondents have constantly continued, our exports have gradually diminished, and have now become nothing at all in respect of the article of India piece-goods; I therefore consider that they have a regular and legitimate trade in piece-goods for their own consumption, as well as their introducing, perhaps clandestinely into our colonies, an inconsiderable part of the goods they may import; but I should presume they import principally for their own consumption; I should think full two-thirds of their import must be for their own consumption, from every information I have upon the subject, particularly low calicoes.

From the information you have upon the subject, do you think they likewise clandestinely supply our West India island's with piece goods in some degree?—I think they may supply, to a certain extent, articles of that description; because they are in the habit of taking to our West India islands, or have been till lately, regular supplies of flour and provisions, which they are necessarily in want of: and I have understood they have occasionally made shipments of East India articles into our colonies, as well as introduced them into the back pacts of Canada from the state of New York.

What are the returns they get in our West India colonies?—They bring, to a certain extent, sugar and coffee from the West India colonies, in return for the supplies they send there. I should think not a great deal of bullion.

In your opinion if the ad valorem duty upon piece-goods were ascertained in London, as at present by the sale prices at the India House, and at the out-ports by the declaration of the dealers, do you not think very great injury would be sustained, both by the Company and the London dealers?—I think there would be very great difficulty in equalizing the duties when taken in the usual way by a declaration of value, and presuming that the duties in London are to be levied as they are now levied by the sales of the East India Company; for I take it for granted the importation to London will still be continued by the Company to a certain extent, and the goods sold at their regular sales in London upon which the duty will be levied.

Do you think, that if the duties were ascertained in London as at present, and at the out-ports by the declarations of the parties, the duty levied at the out-ports would be proportionably considerably less than that which would be levied in London?—I think, from the variety of articles that come from India, that there certainly would be a very considerable difference between the duties levied by a declaration, and those produced at the Company's sales. It very frequently happens, that at the sates of the Company in London, the value of the article is very much enhanced or depressed by the state of the market, and if there was a considerable demand in London, the article might pay a much heavier duty than it would otherwise pay at the out-port where no such demand existed; consequently the duty would be very improperly levied, the articles being precisely the game.

Are you of opinion that, under the circumstances of levying the duties stated in the former questions, the out-ports would have a very unfair advantage over the London market?—I certainly think they would have an advantage over the London market.

Do you know, from having attended at the East India sales, that it frequently happens that goods, apparently of the same quality, are sold at the same sales at very different prices?—It does frequently happen in the course of a sale of several days that the goods will vary from two to five per cent. and sometimes even more than that; from any extraordinary demand or occurrence which takes place, even higher than that in particular articles sometimes.

Supposing the trade in piece-goods to be dispersed over many parts of the kingdom, instead of being confined as at present to the sale rooms of the East India Company, do you think that would have any effect in deterring; foreign merchants from coming to this country for the purposes of buying piece goods?—I think it would not altogether deter foreign merchants from coming to this country, because if they can get the article in a better manner than they could in any other place, they would resort to this country; they would not perhaps with the same degree of confidence sends orders to this: country, if they came here they would be enabled themselves to look at the articles they might have occasion to purchase. I think whilst the whole trade was carried on in the port of London, the foreign merchants never felt any difficulty, even if they could not visit this country, in sending their orders; knowing they would be executed from the correct and particular character of the East India Company, they bought their goods precisely the same as if they were present; if the trade was dissipated, certainly the same circumstance could not take place, as the parties at the out ports, or wherever the goods might lie, might be from necessitous circumstances obliged to sell at a less rate than the usual sales made through the medium of the Company in London; therefore it would be necessary for the foreigners to come actually and buy their goods here, without sending their orders, as they have been accustomed to do, through the medium of persons in London, through whom they have directed their purchases; they certainly could not order with the same confidence when the trade is dissipated in various parts of the country, as they can now the trade is concentrated in the port of London.

(Examined by the Committee.)

If the duty to be established in the event of opening the trade with India to the out-ports were to be placed on the same footing, whether of a rated or an ad valorem duty, in London as in the out-ports, do you conceive it possible that any injury could be sustained by the merchant of London?—Certainly, if the same rate was levied at both places, and in the same manner, I should presume no difficulty of that description could arise; I should hardly presume that any persons importing, or any officers of his Majesty's customs, would not attend to their duty under such circumstances; I make my distinction only from the dirty being levied upon the sales of the East India Company, all which considerable variation takes place, and that of the declaration of the private individual upon his invoice cost, or any other mode of proceeding that he might think proper to adopt. We know very well in all mercantile transactions that various persons, well connected and well acquainted with their business, will import their goods upon much better terms than those who are not so well acquainted, and have not the same means of laying them in at a proper rate from India; we are aware that in all cases persons will both purchase at a much less expence, and import at a much less expence, though the same description of articles; and if imported under an ad valorem duty upon invoice cost, the one party importing upon those terms which were not so advantageous as his adversary, would pay higher duties if he paid them in the way in which they are levied in America, by the declaration of the parties; and it does frequently happen within my own knowledge, and what I have heard stated, that parties in America pay a much less duty upon the same articles purchased in this country for money, and those that are purchased upon credit, although they are precisely the same articles.

You are not yourself much connected with the continental trade?—Not a great deal; we frequently buy largely at the East India Company's sales, but we have either had occasion to ship them ourselves to the Mediterranean, or have sold them in London to persons who have made application to us through our brokers; our regular trade has been with America.

From your own knowledge or general acquaintance with mercantile men, can you name any period during the war which commenced in 1793, up to the present period, that America could send to any country in Europe the manufactures of India, at the time when a British merchant could not send to the same country the manufactures of India in a neutral ship?—It occurs to me, that there were very considerable shipments of piece-goods made from America, subsequent to the commencement of the present war in 1803; to Antwerp extremely considerable; I am quite certain of the fact, because I remember to have received very considerable remittances from Antwerp, the produce of those cargoes? I cannot state precisely the year, not expecting to be asked a question of the kind, or I would have been prepared to answer it; but since the commencement of the present war, there have been considerable shipments of Indian produce made, not only to the ports under the dominion of the French, but also to the Dutch ports, the proceeds of which have been remitted to this country. The Americans were in the habit of transacting nearly the whole of the business of Batavia, as also the Isle of France; Batavian produce came in very considerable quantities to the ports of Holland and Hamburgh.—[The Witness withdrew.].