wished to ask the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer a question, on the subject of licences granted to American vessels bound to the port of Lisbon, which were to protect them from being molested, notwithstanding any hostilities that might take place between the two countries. On the faith of this protection many speculations had been entered into, yet he was informed that American vessels sailing under these licences had been taken or detained by our blockading squadron. He wished to know if the right hon. gentleman could tell him on what principle licences issued at a time when war was contemplated between the two countries, and which according to the wording of them, embraced all hostilities, were set aside, when one particular species of hostility, that of blockading the American ports, was resorted to? To him this appeared a breach of the national faith, and he therefore wished to be informed on what principle such a measure had been adopted.

wished the hon. gentleman to write to the Board of Trade on the subject, as he would then obtain a more satisfactory answer than it was in his power to give. The licences alluded to had, he believed, been granted before a blockade of the American ports was contemplated, but he did not know under what particular circumstances.

repeated, the licences had been so worded that he should have thought they would have embraced every circumstance of war. They had never been revoked, and therefore he conceived any seizure or detention under them to be unjust. But seeing the Secretary to the Board of Trade in his place, he begged to ask him the question which he had just put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer? He accordingly repeated it.

had not heard of any such circumstance as the seizure of an American vessel sailing under licences, of the description alluded to by the hon. gen- tleman. Some licences had been granted previous to the issuing of letters of marque, and anterior to the declaration of war, and vessels about to sail under these, sir J. B. Warren had not allowed to proceed. Several American vessels had been stopped, but not captured.

said, as the war between the two countries had been contemplated at the time these licences were issued, he thought they might fairly have been interpreted to exempt those to whom they were granted from all interruption and molestation arising out of the hostilities between the two countries. They ought not to be interfered with by a blockading squadron. Such interference might cause the parties much injury, severe losses, and even ruin, though their vessels were not captured.

thought the licences in question were dated the 14th or 15th of September. These set forth, that those who held them were not to be molested in the event of hostilities breaking out between the two countries, but it was not meant that this protection should give permission to break through a blockade. The licences were intended to protect American ships on their voyage, but if a port were blockaded it gave them no right to break the blockade.

said, the licences had been granted to enable American ships to carry provisions to our armies in the peninsula, and therefore they were protected against hostilities. He would put it to any man understanding the English language, if it might not fairly be assumed, from the wording of these licences, that their owners might sail from any American port to any port not blockaded, though they might not be permitted to return to the port from which they had sailed, if that port were put in a state of blockade.

still contended that these licences, granted before the commencement of the war, could not be understood to give permission to those who held them to break any blockade which had subsequently been resolved upon.

was proceeding to offer some remarks on the subject, when the Speaker reminded the House that no question was before them, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer then rose, to put an end to the conversation by bringing forward the motion of which he had given notice respecting the Civil List.

then rose and called the attention of the House to the state of the Civil List expenditure. The last settlement by parliament was in the year 1804; but since that period an excess had annually been found to arise above the estimate. At present there appeared an increase of expenditure of 203,000l. above the estimate of 1804. In the seven years following that year, the average excess over that estimate was 124,000l. From this it would be seen, that though there appeared an increase of 203,000l. on the estimate of 1804, the excess of the year ending April the 5th, 1813, was only the difference between 124,000l. and 203,000l. Since the accession of his present Majesty, it had been found necessary to make various additions to the amount of the Civil List revenue, and the sum total of these was 265,000l. By Mr. Burke's Bill the expenditure had been divided into certain classes; and he now proposed to state successively the amount of excess which had taken place on each particular head, as compared with the expenditure of 1804, and the average of the subsequent years. One cause of the present existing excess, for which parliament would be called on to provide, was the additional allowances that had been made to some of the members of the royal family. The additions made in the last year, in the first class, for the establishments of the Princesses, the increase of the Queen's income, and for the privy purse of the Prince Regent, threw on it a charge of 120,000l. Towards meeting this, a revenue of 70,000l. was given to it, which left 50,000l. unprovided for. The second class, which included the salaries of the Judges, remained as heretofore. The third class, that in which was included the allowances of Foreign Ministers, had considerably increased from the change in our political relations. In 1811, that charge did not much exceed 18,000l.; it amounted last year to 88,500l. In the class including tradesmans' bills, the House could not be surprised that an increase of expenditure had likewise been found unavoidable, under the circumstances of the times. These had been set down in the estimate of 1804, at 172,000l. The actual expenditure of the next year was 296,000l. The expenditure of the last year was 277,000l. being 19,000l. less than the actual expenditure of the year immediately following that in which the estimate was made. In the departments of the Master of the Horse and Master of the Robes there was an augmentation of expence amounting to 47,000l.; that in the department of the Lord Chamberlain, was principally to be ascribed to the transfer of some of the domestic servants' salaries to this class. In the department of Master of the Horse, the excess must immediately be understood, when it was considered that the same stable establishment had been kept up as was maintained before his Majesty's indisposition. In the office of the Lord Steward there was a saving of 30,000l. The expenditure on the head of pensions was 85,900l. being about 1,000l. below the average. There was an excess in the expence of providing compensations to superannuated servants, it not having been deemed proper to dismiss those who had grown old in the service of his Majesty, and on the other hand, it was not just to remove the officers and servants who had previously been about the person of the Prince. The amount on this head was 11,100l. The estimate provided a sum of 27,000l. for the payment of foreign agents, but the average expenditure was about 60,000l. The items against the names of sir Charles Stewart and sir H. Wellesley at Lisbon and Cadiz might appear particularly large. This arose from the very great disbursements they were under the necessity of making, from the peculiar nature of the situations in which they were placed. Sir C. Stewart, as a member of the regency of Portugal, was obliged to maintain a splendid establishment, and sir H. Wellesley, as ambassador to the Spanish government, had constantly to entertain parties of military officers. He mentioned these things, and noticed the great losses by exchange, to which both were subjected, in order to exculpate those gentlemen from any charge of extravagance that might have been preferred against them. The Treasury expences had swelled much above those of former years. The most material increase was caused by an addition of 120l. to the salaries of old Treasury clerks, who had very severe duty to perform, and who had been very inadequately rewarded for the long and meritorious services which they had ren- dered. The increase of charge to be accounted for, as compared with the list of 1804, was 209,000l. and from that was to be deducted a saving of 6,000l. so that the sum would be 203,000l. In the Committee he would be ready to give more minute explanation of that increase than he had already given. But, on looking over the accounts, the House would perceive how small a proportion of this increase had been occasioned by the Prince Regent, while, on the contrary, how great a proportion of it had been occasioned by services purely political. It had chiefly been occasioned by expences atttendant on foreign ministers, and by the pensions granted to those who were well entitled to them for past services, though now no longer able to fulfil their duties properly, from age and other causes. These were reasons for increase, of which the House would not be inclined to complain. The increase they had occasioned was 150,000l. odd, out of the 203,000l. He could not but here observe, how much it would redound to the honour of the country, and of the crown, if the Civil List were put on such a footing as to prevent all arrears;—(Hear!)—but he saw no hope of preventing either its being in arrear, or its increase, while the list was exposed to so many occasional payments. The charges, for instance, connected with our foreign ministers, might be provided for by a separate act of parliament, instead of being suffered to swell the Civil List; and, in so doing, the House would bring within its most immediate notice the items of the Civil List as well as those for foreign ministers. He thought the present a good opportunity for making inquiries with the view of accomplishing such object. Before he sat down he ought to observe, that many expences had been incurred, when the Prince Regent had assumed the sovereign authority, which, though they had swelled the List, would not periodically return upon them; therefore, they might be termed irregular charges. When he talked of irregularity, he meant that they would not annually appear. Of these the principal charge was for furniture to fit up a council chamber, for the reception of ministers, &c. &c. at Carlton House. In departments of the household, economical measures had been had recourse to with great success. In the Lord Steward's department, as he had already stated, there had been a saving of 30,000l. by a careful application of the plan laid down. A further saving of 6,000l. was expected by commutations and superannuations. Savings had also taken place in the Lord Chamberlain's department, and also in that of the Master of the Horse; but not to such an amount as appeared in the Lord Steward's. Much, however, he hoped would be effected.—He hoped the House would be satisfied that no establishments had been formed which were not demanded for the public service. On the whole of his statement, he trusted it would be seen that great part of the increase of expenditure was occasioned by charges for political services, which must be paid by the public under any form of government, republican or other. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving, "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider of the charge upon the Civil List Revenue; and that they do report their observations thereupon, and also as to such further regulations as it may be proper to adopt with respect to the expenditure thereof, to the House."

thought that much important consideration was involved in the accounts of charges on the Civil List, and, as he had often before said, the matter ought to be taken into the most serious examination of parliament; but he could not withhold his surprise at the motion after the many abortive attempts that had been made to obtain a committee on this very subject. A committee had been appointed last session; it made a report shortly before the close of that session; but that report had been nugatory. It gave much good advice, it contained many good suggestions, it made many woeful lamentations respecting the past; and it buoyed itself with hopes for the future—but all had been useless, no good effect had grown out of that report. Though the Chancellor of the Exchequer now talked of seeing whether that could be accomplished, which had, in fact, been powerfully, suggested in the report of last session, how little hope could the House entertain of any beneficial result when it was remembered how nugatory had been the former report! It had been said that the present motion was made in compliance with an Act of last session, respecting any excess in the Civil List; but that Act, like every thing connected with the Civil List, was so ambiguously worded, that it was hardly possible to say, after all they had heard this night, whether the right hon. gentleman had or had not complied with the enactments of it. If he understood that Act rightly, the application had not been made to parliament so soon as it ought to have been made. There had been the greatest laxity in the Civil List accounts; but the right hon. gentleman had exculpated himself from having had any connexion with the fallacious statements of 1804. It was now very properly wished that arrears might be prevented, and that excess might be regularly provided for. Mr. Perceval, in the course of last session, had turned his mind to the excess that constantly took place, and he brought it before parliament. From an average of the expenditure, he found that the excess was annually 124,000l. and it was recognized by parliament at that amount, or rather by the administration of that day. It was provided for permanently, as it was said. Amongst other things that had been called in to their assistance were the Admiralty Droits, a fund that might be called the pack-horse that must be had recourse to on all burdensome occasions. But as that fund must fail if there were to be a peace, it could not be said to be permanently provided for. The Act also provided that when the excess of the List amounted to 10,000l. application must be made to parliament; but the excess was twelve times that amount, and application was now made for the first time since the passing of that Act. When the excess was stripped of, or rather clothed with all the circumstances that of right belonged to it, it might be calculated at about 120,000l. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had dwelt with great nicety on the items of the List, particularly on the expences of furniture, &c. which had occasioned the excess; but he appeared to have forgotten a little act of parliament, which gave to the Prince Regent 100,000l. expressly for the purpose of defraying the expences of the outfit. The Civil List enjoyed by the Regent was larger than any that had ever been before granted in this country. But arrangements had been made, by setting sums apart for the payment or liquidation of certain contracts of honour which had been entered into by his Royal Highness; but what the amount of them was, or when the period of their liquidation would arrive, no one could tell. Calling to mind, however, what immense sums were provided for the express purpose of disposing of these contracts, and for which no account whatever was to be returned to par- liament, he should oppose the appointment of a select committee until the House was made acquainted with the amount of the Prince's debts, or, if it were a more delicate way of coming at the information which he required, when the period of their complete liquidation might be expected to arrive? He thought the House, before it appointed a select committee, ought to resolve itself into a committee for the purpose of coming to certain resolutions respecting the disposition of the immense sums paid to the Prince Regent, for the purpose of liquidating the House knew not what, nor to what amount. In 1795, an Act had been passed to provide annually 60,000l. for the purpose of defraying those debts, and it was said that in twelve years the whole of them would be discharged. In 1804 it was stated, however, that the annuity of 60,000l. would be required for three years longer than had been originally specified: and that then the contracts would certainly be fulfilled. The year 1806 arrived, and then they were told that the Prince could not resume his proper splendour without the annuity, or without some additional grant from parliament. By the Act of 1795, the commissioners were to publish in the Gazette, from time to time, the progress they made in liquidating those contracts of honour; but that practice was continued only for a very short time, and till 1806 they never heard any thing about the progress that was making. They had nothing before them from which they could judge whether the commissioners had discharged their duty faithfully, much less whether all the debts were nearly paid. Ought the House to remain in this state of darkness? The leaving of such immense sums to be disposed of without being regularly accounted for, ought to awaken their jealousy; for though they had no danger to apprehend now, yet with an ambitious sovereign, what use might not be made of such means to undermine their liberties by ruling the majorities in that House! The accounts of charges on the Civil List before the House were intricate in the extreme, indeed the items seemed to be removed from the debit to the credit side without any cause, except for the purpose of making the whole completely incomprehensible. So far as the complication of figures in these accounts made it possible to judge, the Prince Regent had for his privy purse 60,000l.; as Prince of Wales, he had 125,000l. Of this sum 5,000l. a year was said to go to the Princess of Wales; 50,000l. was set apart for the purposes of the trust, and the other 70,000l. remained for himself, making, with the 60,000l. a total sum of 130,000l. a year. To this was to be added the duchy of Cornwall, which had been taken by the public in the year 1795, when it produced a revenue of 13,000l. a year, but was released and put at the disposal of his Royal Highness in the year 1804. How much the revenue of the duchy had increased, he (Mr. Whitbread) could not pretend to say. He knew it was very much increased by the falling in of leases, and otherwise, and that it was under admirable management. He had heard its present revenue stated as high as 30,000l. a year, but he would not be thought to exaggerate in taking it at 20,000l. which in that view of the case, would leave at the complete disposal of his Royal Highness 150,000l. a year. They had been told by his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Adam,) that his Royal Highness dedicated a large sum to the extinction of those obligations of honour. If there were none such, however, the country would be relieved from the 53,000l. a year which had been allotted to that purpose; and they were at least entitled to see the accounts on this subject, or to be informed when such engagements are likely to cease. It had never been conceived even on the most extravagant calculation, that it could be necessary to give to a sovereign of this country such a sum at his uncontrouled disposal. A more beloved sovereign than our present King never sat upon the throne, yet his privy purse had for many years been 40,000l. and never exceeded 60,000l. The present arrangement opened an opportunity for abuse that ought not to be countenanced by parliament. On the House being satisfied respecting the amount of debt, or the probable period of its extinction, he might approve of the select committee; but he should not approve of it, except it were to have the power of calling persons before it, and of examining them touching all matters connected with the accounts. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that the Civil List had not kept within its former bounds; but the language of the most eminent and illustrious men that had ever sat in that House, was very different from what he now heard. Mr. Burke, Mr. Pitt, and Mr. Fox, always agreed and maintained, that the Civil List should be made to fit its revenue; not that the revenue was to be made to fit the Civil List. It seemed, therefore, that there should be some diminution in those articles which were most expensive. As for the Prince's first expenditure on assuming the regency, there had been the 100,000l. specifically voted for it; and therefore they ought not to have heard any thing about furniture or plate. He thought of the expenditure of that sum, a specific statement ought to be laid on the table. Great additional sums had been voted last year for the rest of the royal family. The sums granted altogether to the royal family amounted to 334,000l. There were also large sums charged on the Consolidated Fund for the Queen and Princesses, and for the royal Dukes. The whole, he believed, was more than half a million. Looking over the list, it would be seen how little, comparatively, was given to the Princess Charlotte of Wales; she had only 6,000l. a year from the Civil List; but she had 7,000l. a year from the Consolidated Fund. He wanted to know whether that was the whole of her establishment. If not, the money came from other sources: but there must soon be an increase of her Royal Highness's establishment. He did not wish to deprive any of the branches of the royal family of their proper splendour, but he wished that something like justice might be done, and that there should be something like an equality in the distribution.—(Hear, hear!)—They saw the excesses in the department of the Lord Chamberlain, for plate, furniture, &c.—of the Master of the Horse, for the purchase of horses, an account of which purchases he should like to see; but amongst all these excesses, they saw nothing for additional allowances to one who must be equally affected by the rise in the price of every article of life—who had only 17,000l. Was this equality of distribution?—(Hear, hear!)—As the Prince had his own plate as well as the King's, he could perceive no reason for any new charge on that account, especially after 100,000l. had been granted for the outfit. The fitting up of the council chamber was mentioned; but what great sum could that amount to? None of these expences came out of the 100,000l. for they were all charged now under their respective departments. But there were some curious items in the accounts. Amongst other notable ones he perceived "to Messrs. Rundell and Bridge for snuff boxes, 7,170l. 3s."—(A laugh.)—To whom these snuff boxes had been given they had not been told, indeed they had not been informed whether they had really been disposed of. He had been told of a not very dissimilar item, in some former account of Civil List charge, namely, 754l. for a likeness of his Majesty, as a present to some general Paoli; but the general, declared afterwards, that he never got any such picture (A laugh). Whether the snuff boxes had been equally unsuccessful in finding their destinations he could not divine—they might hereafter have some light thrown on this trifling item. As to the increase occasioned by the expences for foreign ministers, he saw little to congratulate the House upon; for between Sweden and Denmark, and Norway and Great Britain, there appeared to be nothing but perplexity, whatever might have been the success with Russia. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, however, had smirked very considerably when he came to this part of the account, conceiving that there was much cause for triumph in having laid out so much money. Diplomatic men were entitled certainly to reward, after employing their time and talents in the public service. According to their condition in life, they were justified in taking or declining the remuneration; but that they did not always take it he knew, because he was acquainted with one case to the contrary. The excess in this branch appeared enormous. The head of treasury incidents was one in which expence, by remunerating the clerks, might be very proper; but he observed an increase of 5,000l. for messengers' fees. He thought it material for the House to consider all these things in a committee, as was done in 1782; but his great jealousy was, concerning that great fund (of which they could obtain no account as to its disposition) which was a privy purse to the Prince Regent. He must repeat, there was first 60,000l.; then there would be 70,000l.; then, by relief from the income tax, 12,000l.; and lastly, by the duchy of Cornwall, 20,000l.; making 162,000l. per annum, independent of contingencies, of droits, and 4½ per cents. and the hereditary revenue of Scotland. Mr. Adam said, 53,000l. were to be under trust for a time, and 17,000l. a year given to the Princess of Wales. Considering the large allowances to the royal family, he thought that a larger allowance ought to be granted to the Princess of Wales, for the reasons on which excess was justified in other instances, namely, the great augmentation in the cost of articles required in various departments. Now let them look at the justice and the equality of distribution; now let them look at the attention evinced to keep up the dignity and splendour of all the branches of the royal family! Though they saw excess in every other item, they saw no addition made to the income of the Princess of Wales. She still had but her improperly low allowance of 17,000l. a year! (Hear) The Queen, for maintaining her separate state, even while the King was in health, had first 50,000l. a year; to which 8,000l. were added, and recently 10,000l.; thus making 68,000l. The Princesses had 13,000l. a year each. Parliament had a view in the settlement on the Princess of Wales, of what, under circumstances, ought to be her allowance. The Queen's jointure was 100,000l a year, with the palace of Somerset-house, afterwards exchanged for Buckingham, now the Queen's house, and a house at Richmond, and apartments at Kew or Windsor. The Princess of Wales, in the event of the Prince Regent's death, which God avert! was entitled to 50 000l. a year, by the direction of parliament, which had enabled his Majesty to make that settlement on the occurrence of such event, on her Royal Highness; yet while he lived, her Royal Highness, separated from him, had no more than 17,000l. He would repeat his enquiry, was this justice—was this fair, and equal of distribution?—How different was her present state, in these dear times, from that of any other member of the royal family, when people calculated the expences of the Prince Regent's establishment minutely, from plate and wine, down to eggs, (a laugh.) Was it meet and fitting that the Princess should continue as she is? Would ministers do their duty, if they did not advise their royal master to make some addition to her scanty provision; for such it really was when compared with others, and when her rank and station in life were considered justly? He felt that it was difficult to bring the question forward in a precise way. The member for Liverpool (Mr. Canning) thought, last year, that there was an omission in not providing something on this subject. He hoped justice would be done to her, and to the feelings of the country. He could not vote for the motion satisfactorily till information was granted. He found an account recently up to the 5th of April, which stated, that 263,000l. had been taken from the Droits to the use of the Civil List. He could not avoid noticing, that in the year 1811, such restraints had been put upon the Prince Regent, in the exercise of the royal authority, as had appeared to him to be improper, and such as every member of the royal family also considered improper. It appeared, however, that from the time the restrictions had expired, there had been a laxity, at least equal to the rigour which had been displayed at that time. He concluded by moving, as an amendment, "that the several accounts of the Civil List should be referred to a committee of the whole House."

said, that some questions had been asked by the hon. gentleman, which, if not answered, might be construed unfavourably. As to the appropriation of those sums included in what was generally called Mr. Adam's Trust Fund, he could assure the hon. gentleman, that it could be most satisfactorily accounted for. He had not the account now in his pocket, but if the hon. gentleman had asked him yesterday about it, he should now have been prepared to produce the account. He could, however, assure the hon. gentleman, that the appropriation of this fund could be most satisfactorily accounted for.

in explanation, said that he really was not aware that there had been any necessity for him to make any previous statement to the noble lord upon the subject. Before the Prince of Wales was Regent, the House was content to receive information from those persons who were in his employment and confidence; but now that he was Prince Regent, and had ministers in the House, it was to those ministers that it should apply for necessary information, and not to any individual member of the House. He was not aware of any public situation which the noble lord held, that would make it competent for him to give information to the House. He did not know that the noble lord was a trustee of that fund which he said had been alluded to. He had accidentally met Mr. Adam this day, and had stated to him the questions that he intended to ask, that gentleman said to him, on his mentioning his intention of asking information upon the subject of "Adam's Trust,"—"You are entirely at liberty to do so, and I think you will find that the sums have been faithfully applied." He had not the least doubt of the fair application of those funds to the purposes to which the Prince Regent chose to direct them. His object had been to obtain information in a regular constitutional way, and not through any indirect channel. When he thought that information ought to be laid before the House of Commons, he would move for that information by an address to the Prince Regent, and not by asking questions of any individual member.

said, in explanation, that he always thought the fund to be a private trust vested in the Chancellor of the duchy of Cornwall, and one or two other persons; and in making the observations which had fallen from him, he was solely influenced by an anxiety that a false impression might not go abroad.

said, that there was no trustee created by the act of parliament, though the sum was voted in confidence. The question which he was desirous of having answered was, merely when his Royal Highness would have discharged the engagements for which the 53,000l. had been granted.

said, that he was not at all surprized at the anxiety of his noble friend (lord Yarmouth) to offer some explanation about the application of that sum, with the management of which he was connected. It was not to be expected of the servants of the crown, that they should know any thing of that particular branch of the Prince's revenue. It was known, generally, at the time the Prince consented to take upon himself the weight of the royal authority, that although he had given up 50,000l. a year of his revenue as Prince of Wales, 53,000l. annually had been withheld to defray encumbrances which he conceived binding on his personal honour to discharge. The revenues of the duchy of Cornwall were peculiarly in the charge of his noble friend, and therefore an injurious impression might have been made upon the public, if his noble friend had remained silent upon the statement. As to the motion of the hon. gentleman, he considered it extraordinary that he should wish to have a committee of the whole House upon the details of these accounts. It would be time for the House to consider the question, when the detailed information was laid before them in a satisfactory and intelligible manner; as he was convinced it would be after the accounts had been laid before a select committee. It would be a great waste of time for the House to go into an examination of those details, which could be better examined by a select committee. The hon. gentleman seemed to consider the Reports usually given of the state of the Civil List as unsatisfactory. It appeared to him, however, that they ought to be satisfactory, as all the accounts were arranged under precise heads, upon which ministers were always ready to give explanations. The hon. gentleman also wished to give this committee the usual powers of sending for persons, papers, and records. Now it appeared to him, that such a power would lead to an investigation as could not in delicacy be admitted on the private affairs of the meanest individual. But were members of that House so intimately acquainted with the details of the offices of Lord Chamberlain, or Lord Steward, as to be the proper judges, whether any greater savings might or might not be made in those departments? An investigation of this nature could not properly be made of the private expences of any gentleman in this country; and he did not think that the House would sanction it with respect to the Prince Regent. The hon. gentleman had truly stated, that the House made a liberal provision in the last year for the Prince Regent, on assuming the royal authority without restrictions; and in particular they had voted a sum of 100,000l. which the hon. gentleman called a vote for his out-fit, and for which he demanded an account. He could, however, see no reason for a detailed account of the expenditure of this sum; but he should state generally that his Royal Highness had filled the regency for nearly a year, before any such provision had been made. It was to be recollected, that the sum was the first which had been given by parliament, since the time that his Royal Highness had been pleased to exercise the duties of Regent, and he had no doubt that the greater part of it had been expended in defraying the extraordinary expences occasioned to his Royal Highness during the preceding year, by the discharge of his duties as Regent. He thought that it was rather a matter of astonishment, that the whole increase in the great departments of the household, (the Lord Chamberlain's, and the Master of the Horse,) should not have exceeded 17,000l. in the present year. In the department of the Lord Steward (which appeared more particularly to be connected with the personal expenditure of the Prince,) there had been a considerable saving. In the department of the Master of the Horse, besides the additional horses that were purchased, every gentleman must know, that the price of keeping horses had greatly increased during the last year. The price of oats had more than doubled; it had nearly trebled. He thought the first impression on the face of those accounts should rather be surprise at so small an increase, than suspicion or disapprobation. One of the most prominent branches in which the expenditure had been increased was that department in which he had the honour to be concerned, and it would afford him pleasure to give every information on the subject which was in his power to the gentlemen of the committee. In that branch the expence was very fluctuating, and on that account he thought it proper that the particulars of it should annually be under the consideration of parliament, in order to prevent the danger of mismanagement. This branch comprehended the greater part of the expences incurred by foreign missions. From a comparative statement of the amount of expenditure in that branch at present, with what it had been at former periods, it would be found that although the expences of the last year exceeded that of some of those which more immediately preceded it, yet it was much less than on some former occasions. In 1804, the committee had estimated the extraordinary expences respecting foreign missions at 10,000l. This sum was, however, less than the extraordinary expences of lord Whitworth's embassy at Paris, in 1801. In 1804, when the estimate was made, there was not many foreign embassies, and the particular cause of the increase was from the two embassies to Spain and Portugal. In fact, there was no branch of public service so inadequately paid as foreign embassies. There was only the same salary which had been fixed many years ago, which was diminished very considerably by the altered circumstances of the times. The greatest expence in the present List was occasioned by the two missions to the peninsula; and in this case the expence had been increased by a loss of about 25 or 30 per cent. upon the whole, which had been incurred by the rate of exchange being so unfavourable to this country. As to what the hon. member had said about snuff-boxes, he had only to observe, that it had always been the custom on the signing of a treaty to give away snuff-boxes, of a certain value; and although the hon. member had objected much to the magnitude of the sum of 7,500l. he believed upon inquiry that he would find that it was not more than was customary upon similar occasions. He thought what the hon. member had said about the royal family, had been brought forward rather with the same temper which had led to those unfortunate discussions which had occurred at an earlier period in the session, and against which he would ever continue to protest. He had lamented the discussions which had taken place in that House, and those which had taken place out of doors: he particularly regretted that this subject was now brought forward, as he was convinced that if an attack was to be made upon his Royal Highness on this point, it would entirely defeat the objects of those who made it, and their wishes to serve her Royal Highness. He never could admit that she possessed any character at all to be compared with that of the Queen, or that she derived any public character from the situation which was cast upon his royal highness the Prince Regent. Whatever information the right hon. gentleman might have received, it was not a fair statement to say that the Princess had but 17,000l. per annum; as, in addition to that, she had 5,000l. annually from the Civil List. It must be also recollected, that the Prince had paid no less than 50,000l. for debts which her Royal Highness had incurred. As for a committee of the whole House, he thought it quite inapplicable to the examination of the details of the accounts in question. He assured the House, that if a select committee were appointed, there would be every disposition to give the fullest satisfaction upon the whole of those accounts. He thought, however, that upon the face of them, there was no reason for blame or suspicion, but rather ground of approbation. For these reasons the amendment should have his decided negative. The original question met with his hearty concurrence.

observed in explanation, that his information on the income of the Princess of Wales was not derived from any private source, but from the statement of the late Mr. Perceval, made in that House.

made some observations on the state of the menial domestics of the Prince, He thought it quite disgraceful that when any one called upon the Prince Regent on public business, a book should be immediately put into his hand by the servants, to subscribe for those who were not sufficiently provided for. The marshalmen, he understood, had but a salary of 20l. a year, and gave 800l. for their places. Their incomes were, in a great measure, obtained by begging about from door to door, in a manner that made it doubtful whether they were not liable to be committed on the Vagrant Act. He thought that proper salaries should be given them; and that it was quite disgraceful the servants of the crown should be obliged to resort to such means to obtain a livelihood.

spoke shortly in reply, after which the amendment was negatived, and the original motion was carried without a division.

then proceeded to name the committee. When

on his name being mentioned, begged to decline the honour proposed to be conferred on him; he could not be a party to any thing which might seem like a shift, and which was a mere delusion to be practised on the public; for it could be called nothing else than a delusion where the committee was not to have the power of calling for such persons or papers as might be deemed necessary.

observed, that no examination could be more minute than that which had taken place last year before a committee, which was under the very same regulations which were to be made with regard to that which the House was just about to appoint. The reason for not giving to the committee the power of calling before it the different members of the household, was very obvious. Such a power would be invidious and indelicate.

said a few words in reply, and persisted in calling the committee, which was about to be appointed, a wanton delusion.

contended that it was improper in any thing that related to the expenditure of the public money, to exclude any means of information, and it was not acting fairly with regard to the royal family, to refuse investigation.

declared, that the mode of referring those papers to a committee was altogether nugatory, and no good could proceed from it. It would be more parliamentary for the House to vote the sums contained in the accounts without any further explanation, than to appoint a committee to inspect them which had no powers of investigation.

said, in the last committee several explanations of the accounts were obtained by moving Addresses to the Prince Regent for that purpose, and on the present occasion the committee might pursue the same line of conduct and obtain the information they wanted.

enquired if it was behaving decorously towards the country to appoint a committee to examine into the Civil List expenditure which had no powers of examination whatsoever.

said, that the noble lord (Milton) was mistaken in supposing the question to be merely, whether the papers should be called for by the Committee or by the House. The House in similar cases always proceeded by Address, a mode which the Committee could not adopt, but which left to the crown or its ministers the option of withholding any information that might be called for if they should think it improper to be communicated to the House. (Hear! hear! from the Opposition bench). Such advice was not likely to be given on the present occasion, but it was certainly competent to ministers to give it, upon their responsibility. The noble lord treated the King as merely a public functionary; even in that light, comparing him with the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, or the Speaker, a detailed examination into his expences was not necessary to enable the House to judge of the necessity of increasing his allowance; it was sufficient to have a general impression of the inadequacy of the present income. But the King constituted in fact one of the orders of the state; it was as desirable to preserve his independence as that of the noble lord's father, or any other great member of the aristocracy. Whatever he possessed, he had as much right to enjoy as any of his subjects. The proceeding recommended by the noble lord was not agreeable to the principles of our constitution. (Heat! hear!) Mr. C. would repeat it.

The Committee of last year, of which he (Mr. C.) had been a member, had, even by the admission of the hon. member for Bedford, given good advice; and the reduction which had taken place in the expences of one of the principal departments of the household, shewed that advice had been followed, or that there had been a previous disposition to economy in that department. He could undertake to say, that the Report of that Committee contained more full information upon the subject of the Civil List, than had ever before been produced.

With respect to the Office of Works, alluded to by an hon. gentleman (Mr. Bankes) as a department requiring minute examination, Mr. C. reminded the House that a Report from the Commissioners of Enquiry was then upon their table; when that Report should be printed, the hon. gentleman's criticisms would be more in season. At present Mr. C. saw no reason for proceeding in regard to the Prince Regent in a different course from that heretofore adopted towards the sovereign, and he should vote against giving to the Committee the power of sending for persons, papers, and records.

was of opinion that the arming of a committee with proper powers of investigation could never be construed into disrespect for the crown; it would be indecorous in the House to nominate a committee through which the accounts would pass in a kind of mock examination.

was anxious that some more efficacious measure of examination should be adopted, because the expenses were not reduced within legitimate bounds, nor the cause of the excess explained. It was perfectly decorous, he apprehended, to inform the committee what was the amount of those engagements which an annual sum of 53,000l. was required to discharge, so that they might calculate the period when the country would be freed from any further payments. It was the doctrine of the constitution to allow the crown no money but what come by the grant of parliament. This principle had been adopted for the preservation of public liberty, for if the crown could have received money by any other means, little of the constitution would have been remaining.

entreated that proper powers might be delegated to the committee.

then consented to strike out the name of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney) from the list of the committee, which was done accordingly: Mr. Ponsonby was next proposed, but he declined the honour, and his name was withdrawn. It was then moved that Mr. Whitbread should be one of the committee.

declared, that the ap- pointment of such a committee was perfectly nugatory, he could not conceive any reason for withholding powers of examination from the committee. The House recollected the examination of one of the members of the royal family before the committee appointed to examine into sinecure offices. It would not be derogatory to the Steward of the Household to mention some of the articles which occasioned extra expences, seeing that when the motion was made for encreasing the salary of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the vicegerent of the King, an accurate statement was made of the increased price of wines and other articles of household expenditure.

said, those who opposed the committee appeared to be wholly anxious to get that part of the accounts into their consideration which were of a private nature.

After a few further remarks from Mr. Whitbread and Mr. Bathurst, the committee was appointed.

then moved, that the committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.

The House divided, when there appeared, For the Motion, 29; Against it, 108: Majority 79.