presented to the House, by command of the Prince Regent, a copy of the

TREATY OF CONCERT AND SUBSIDY BETWEEN HIS BRITANNIC MAJESTY AND THE KING OF SWEDEN; Signed at Stockholm, March 3, 1813.

In the Name of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity.

His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and his Majesty the King of Sweden, equally animated with the desire of drawing closer the ties of friendship and good intelligence which so happily subsist between them, and penetrated with the urgent necessity of establishing with each other a close concert for the maintenance of the independence of the North, and in order to accelerate the so much wished for epocha of a general peace, have agreed to provide for this twofold object by the present Treaty. For this purpose they have chosen for their plenipotentiaries, namely, his royal highness the Prince Regent, in the name and on behalf of his Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the honourable Alexander Hope, major-general of his Majesty's armies; and Edward Thornton, esq. his envoy extraordinary and minister plenipotentiary to his Majesty the King of Sweden; and his Majesty the King of Sweden, Lawrence count d'Engestrom, one of the lords of the kingdom of Sweden, minister of state and for foreign affairs, chancellor of the university of Lund, knight commander of the king's orders, knight of the royal Order of Charles XIII, Great Eagle of the Legion of Honour of France; and Gustavus baron de Wetterstedt, chancellor of the court, commander of the Order of the Polar Star, and one of the eighteen of the Swedish Academy; who, after having exchanged their respective full powers, found in good and due form, have agreed upon the following Articles:—

ART. I. His Majesty the King of Sweden engages to employ a corps of not less than 30,000 men, in a direct operation upon the continent against the common enemies of the two high contracting parties. This army shall act in concert with the Russian troops placed under the command of his royal highness the Prince Royal of Sweden, according to stipulations to this effect already existing between the courts of Stockholm and St. Petersburg.

ART. II. The said courts having communicated to his Britannic Majesty the engagements subsisting between them, and having formally demanded his said Majesty's accession thereto, and his Majesty the King of Sweden having, by the stipulations contained in the preceding Article, given a proof of the desire which animates him to contribute also on his part to the success of the common cause; his Britannic Majesty being desirous in return to give an immediate and unequivocal proof of his resolution to join his interests to those of Sweden and Russia, promises and engages by the present Treaty to accede to the conventions already existing between those two powers, insomuch that his Britannic Majesty will not only not oppose any obstacle to the annexation and union in perpetuity of the kingdom of Norway as an integral part, to the kingdom of Sweden, but also will assist the views of his Majesty the King of Sweden to that effect, either by his good offices, or by employing, if it should be necessary, his naval co-operation in 'concert with the Swedish or Russian forces. It is nevertheless to be understood, that recourse shall not be had to force for effecting the union of Norway to Sweden, unless his Majesty the King of Denmark shall have previously refused to join the alliance of the North, upon the conditions stipulated in the engagements subsisting between the courts of Stockholm and St. Petersburgh; and his Majesty the King of Sweden engages, that this union shall take place with every possible regard and consideration for the happiness and liberty of the people of Norway.

ART. III. In order to give more effect to the engagements contracted by his Majesty the King of Sweden in the first Article of the present Treaty, which have for object direct operations against the common enemies of the two powers, and in order to put his Swedish Majesty in a state to begin without loss of time, and so soon as the season shall permit, the said operations, his Britannic Majesty engages to furnish to his Majesty the King of Sweden, independently of other succours which general circumstances may place at his disposal, for the service of the campaign of the present year, as well as for the equipment, the transport and maintenance of the troops, the sum of One Million sterling, payable at London monthly, to the agent who shall be authorised by his Swedish Majesty to receive the same, in such manner as not to exceed the payment of two hundred thousand pounds sterling each month, until the whole shall be paid

ART. IV. It is agreed between the high contracting parties, that an advance, of which the amount and the time of payment shall be determined between them, and which is to be deducted from the million before stipulated, shall be made to his Majesty the King of Sweden for the miseen campagne, and for the first march of the troops; the remainder of the before-mentioned succours are to commence from the day of the landing of the Swedish army, as it is stipulated by the two high contracting parties in the first Article of the present Treaty.

ART. V. The two high contracting parties being desirous of giving a solid and lasting guarantee to their relations, as well political as commercial, his Britannic Majesty, animated with a desire to give to his ally evident proofs of his sincere friendship, consents to cede to his Majesty the King of Sweden, and to his successors to the crown of Sweden, in the order of succession established by his said Majesty, and the states-general of his kingdom, under date the 26th of September, 1810, the possession of Guadaloupe in the West Indies, and to transfer to his Swedish Majesty all the rights of his Britannic Majesty over that island, in so far as his said Majesty actually possesses the same. This colony should be given up to the commissioners of his Majesty the King of Sweden in the course of the month of August in the present year, or three months after the landing of the Swedish troops on the continent; the whole to take place according to the conditions agreed upon between the two high contracting parties, in the separate Article annexed to the present Treaty.

ART. VI. As a reciprocal consequence of what has been stipulated in the precedceding Article, his Majesty the King of Sweden engages to grant, for the space of 20 years, to take date from the exchange of the ratifications of the present Treaty, to the subjects of his Britannic Majesty, the right of entrepot in the ports of Gottenburg, Carlsham, and Stralsund, (whenever this last-mentioned place shall return under the Swedish dominion) for all commodities, productions, or merchandize, whether of Great Britain or of her colonies, laden on board British or Swedish vessels. The said commodities or merchandise, whether they be of such kind as may be introduced and subject to duty in Sweden, or whether their introduction be prohibited, shall pay without distinction, as duty of entrepot, one per cent. ad valorem, upon entry, and the same upon discharge. As to every other particular relating to this object, the general regulations existing in Sweden shall be conformed to; treating always the subjects of his Britannic Majesty upon the footing of the most favoured nations.

ART. VII. From the day of the signature of the present Treaty, his Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and his Majesty the King of Sweden, reciprocally promise not to separate their mutual interests, and particularly those of Sweden which are referred to in the present Treaty, in any negociation whatever with their common enemies.

ART. VIII. The ratification of the present Treaty shall be exchanged at Stockholm within four weeks, or sooner if possible.

In faith of which, we the undersigned, in virtue of our full powers, have signed the present Treaty, and have affixed thereto the seals of our arms.

Done at Stockholm, the 3d March, in the year of our Lord 1813.

ALEXANDER HOPE.

(L. S.) LE COMTE D'ENGESTROM.

EDWARD THORNTON. (L. S.)

(L. S.) G. BARONDE WETTERSTEDT.

(L. S.)

Separate Article

As a consequence of the cession made by his Britannic Majesty, in the 5th Article of the Treaty signed this day, of the island of Guadaloupe, his Majesty the King of Sweden engages:—

1. Faithfully to fulfil and observe the stipulations of the capitulation of the said island, under date the 5th of February, 1810, so that all the privileges, rights, benefices, and prerogatives, confirmed by that act to the inhabitants of the colony, shall be preserved and maintained.

2. To take for this purpose, previous to the cession before-mentioned, every engagement which may be judged necessary with his Britannic Majesty, and to execute all acts conformable thereto.

3. To grant to the inhabitants of Guadaloupe the same protection and the same advantages which the other subjects of his Majesty the King of Sweden enjoy, conformably always to the laws and stipulations actually existing in Sweden.

4. To forbid and prohibit, at the period of the cession, the introduction of slaves from Africa into the said island, and the other possessions in the West Indies of his Swedish Majesty, and not to permit Swedish subjects to engage in the slave trade; an engagement which his Swedish Majesty is the more willing to contract, as this traffic has never been authorised by him.

5. To exclude, during the continuance of the present war, all armed vessels and privateers belonging to states at war with Great Britain, from the ports and harbours of Guadaloupe; and not to permit in any future wars in which Great Britain may be engaged and Sweden remain neutral, the entrance into the ports of the said colony of the privateers belonging to any of the belligerent states.

6. Not to alienate the said island without the consent of his Britannic Majest1y; and

7. To grant every protection and security to British subjects and to their property, whether they may choose to quit the colony or to remain there.

This separate Article shall have the same force and effect, as if it were inserted, word for word, in the Treaty signed this day, and shall be ratified at the same time.

In faith of which, we the undersigned, in virtue of our full powers, have signed the present separate Article, and have affixed thereto the seals of our arms.

Done at Stockholm, the 3d March, in the year of our Lord 1813.

ALEXANDER HOPE.

(L. S.) LE COMTE D'ENGESTROM.

EDWARD THORNTON. (L. S.)

(L. S. G. BARON DE WETTERSTEDT. (L. S.)

moved that the said Treaty be referred to a Committee of Supply on Wednesday.

said, that just before the noble lord brought up those papers, it was his intention to give notice of a motion which had considerable reference to the subject which was now proposed for discussion on Wednesday. It was, however. of a more comprehensive nature; and he now gave notice, that on Tuesday, the 29th of June, he intended to bring forward a motion with regard to our relations with foreign powers generally: when, also, he should bring the subject of peace distinctly tinder the consideration of the House.—The hon. gentleman said, that on looking at the Swedish Treaty, some of the provisions of which appeared to him not a little extraordinary, he saw it contained various-references to the Treaty with Russia: he would ask the noble lord opposite, whether it would not be necessary that the latter, also, should be in the hands of the House?

conceived, that when the discussion took place on the Swedish Treaty, it would be sufficient for him to give verbal explanations on the subject of those references, without producing the Russian Treaty itself.

although he had extraordinary faith in the promise of the noble lord, would be much better pleased with the production of the Treaty itself: he did hope, therefore, that the noble lord would advise his royal highness the Prince Regent to give directions, that this, as he considered it, most essential document, should be laid before the House.

thought, the mere disclosure of facts, when the House came to the discussion of the Swedish Treaty, by the noble lord, would not be so eligible as an opportunity of perusing, and deliberately weighing, the contents of the document alluded to. As from the noble lord's pledge to make the necessary disclosures in his speech, it did not appear that secresy was his object, there surely could be no reasonable objection to lay the matter in the usual way before the House. He, for one, if the noble lord conceived that there would be any impropriety in the proposed disclosures, would be the last man to press them; but if there was no such impropriety, he did think that the wishes of the House ought to be complied with.

having returned no answer,

gave notice, that he should on Monday make a motion to have the Treaty with Russia laid before the House; and although on that day orders would have precedence of notices, he would avail himself of his privilege to submit his motion at an early part of the evening.

said, he could not give any consent to the motion of the right hon. gentleman, until he considered how far he could do so without breaking faith with those towards whom it was so necessary to preserve faith.

then observed, that at a former period of the session, he had contemplated the probability of circumstances occurring, before the end of the year, which would do away the necessity of renewing this measure. Although there had been a considerable improvement in the rate of exchange, however, between this and foreign countries, the state of the currency was yet such as to render it necessary to continue the Bill for some time longer. He should now, therefore, submit a motion to the House for effecting that purpose. He should propose some alterations to the former Bill, which, he thought, were highly expedient: amongst others, he should introduce a clause to enforce the payment of all local tokens which might be issued in the country, in bank of England notes, and also a clause to prevent the issue of Bank notes for sums less than 20s. The right hon. gentleman concluded by submitting a resolution, That the House should be moved for leave to bring in a Bill, to continue and amend the former Act.

said, he did not rise to oppose the Resolution proposed by the right hon. gentleman, nor did he mean to take a retrospective view of all that had already taken place in the House upon this subject. He thought, however, this measure was one which ought to be watched with the utmost caution, the more especially, when he found, that the right hon. gentleman was about to introduce some new provisions, one of which was, to compel the payment of tokens which might be issued by country bankers in bank of England notes, instead of notes of their own, thereby acknowledging their paper to be depreciated, and giving greater artificial security to the bank of England paper. Another of those provisions was, to go to prevent the issue of paper securities for any sum under 20s. If no fraud had hitherto been discovered in these latter mentioned issues, he saw not why they should not be allowed to continue as well as the silver tokens. Where no silver tokens were in circulation, as was the case in manufacturing districts, such a prohibition would be attended with the most serious consequences, and would bear extremely hard upon the manufacturers in general. All, however, that had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, as well as all that had occurred to him from the general observations which he had made on the state of the country, only went to confirm him in the propriety and policy of the House rescinding the resolution to which they had come in the year 1808, namely, that the paper of the Bank of England was of the same value as the legal and natural currency of the country.

apprehended that the measure now proposed by his right hon. friend, was by no means new. There was already a law in existence, which prohibited the passing of notes under the value of 20s. and as to the clause for compelling the country bankers to pay their local tokens in bank of England notes, he apprehended that this provision only applied where the individual, whose interest might be concerned, did not chuse to take provincial notes. In that case he certainly would be entitled to insist upon having Bank of England notes, as he would be in all other payments. It was only extending to local Tokens, therefore, the same provisions which already applied to provincial notes in general. There was no doubt that the renewal of the Local Token Bill was extremely necessary, and was likely to continue necessary under the present state of foreign expenditures for a very long time. He denied that there had been any improvement in the state of exchange between this and other countries, since his right hon. friend last addressed the House; and so far was he from believing that the period would soon arrive which would enable government to call in the local tokens altogether, that he firmly believed it would become necessary to increase the nominal value of the coin now issued by the Bank of England. The price of silver was already higher than the value placed upon the local tokens, and where bullion was wanted, there was no doubt that Bank tokens at three shillings, were deemed much cheaper than other silver. In the late coinage for Ireland, this fact was most clearly demonstrated, as in that case the quantity of silver, with reference to the nominal value of the coin, had been considerably diminished. If this continued, it would soon be necessary to raise their denomination, to prevent them from being withdrawn from circulation. The evils which attended the alteration of the nominal value of our currency almost every six months, were great and obvious. They required the serious consideration of parliament.

was not disappointed in the proposition which was now made to renew the Local Token Bill. The state of things was such as required such a proceeding. The state of things to which he alluded, was the decrease of the ordinary currency of the country, and the depreciation of the paper currency. The decrease of the silver currency of the country was illustrated by the debasement of the money lately coined for the use of Ireland, which was in value one-seventh less than that which had been coined on a former occasion, although the nominal value remained the same.

said, that the value of the dollar in Ireland had not been at all affected, nor had the recent silver coinage been debased, although the quantity of silver in the money issued had been diminished.

said, that it was clear from this, in all events, that a less quantity of silver now passed for the same nominal value, than a greater quantity passed for some short time back. Otherwise, that the nominal value of the coin remained the same, while the silver was diminished in quantity.

admitted this to be the real state of the case.

reprobated this system of things, as highly injurious to the interests of the country, and as tending to promote ruinous speculations in coin. The facts which had now been admitted illustrated in the clearest manner the depreciation of the currency of the country.

attributed the diminution of the value of our coinage to the present enormous foreign expenditures, and the want of an adequate return.

would ask, if it were to this cause the depreciation of the coin was to be attributed, why the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had attempted to impose upon the House, with an assurance that he contemplated a more prosperous state of affairs?

After a few further remarks from Mr. Huskisson, Mr. Baring, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Resolution was agreed to. The House then resumed, and the Chairman moved for leave to bring in a Bill, pursuant to the resolution of the Committee; which leave was given.

rose to take the earliest opportunity of submitting to the approbation of the Committee, the terms of the Loan he had contracted, to make up the sum granted for the current service of the year. Were he to take up the attention of the House for a length of time any way proportionate to the magnitude of the financial operations he should have occasion to advert to, no opportunity would be left to discuss on that evening the other important subjects which were to be submitted to the attention of the House; he hoped, however, that the statements he had to make, were so clear, and so generally understood already, that it would be necessary for him to occupy but a small portion of the time of the Committee. He would first submit to the Committee, an account of the items of Supplies already agreed to, and proceed afterwards to those of the Ways and Means necessary to meet them. He did not intend in the mean time to offer any comment on the magnitude of the expenditure, nor to dwell on the political and military exertions which had rendered it necessary; those topics had been frequently discussed before, and would probably come again under the consideration of the House before they separated.

The first article of supply was the sum already voted for the service of the navy (exclusive of ordnance sea service) and amounting to 20,575,011l. exceeding the sum voted last year by 872,612l. The sum voted for the army in England (including barracks and commissariat) was 15,727,931l. exceeding also last year's vote by 1,150,233l.; for the army in Ireland 3,198,606l., exceeding the expenditure of last year by 20,144l. These sums united gave a total of 18,926,537l. for the army, giving a general excess over last year's expence of 1,170,377l. In the extraordinaries of the army last year, there had remained unprovided for a sum of 4,662,797l. which, of course, was to be provided for by the Ways and Means. But to prevent the recurrence of the same unpleasant circumstance, he would this year propose the sum of 9,500,000l. for the extraordinaries of the army. Of this sum 5,000,000l. had been already voted, and there would of course remain four millions and a half to be provided for at a future period by the House. The army extraordinaries for Ireland were the same as last year, that is, 200,000l, making the total of the extraordinaries 9,700,000l. The sums necessary for miscellaneous services had been already voted by the House; there were, however, some items still unprovided for, and to cover them all, he would take the sum of 2,500,000l,; exceeding that branch of the service of last year, by 150,000l. The next article of supply he should come to, were the subsidies granted to foreign powers. On this head no alteration had taken place since last year; and the sums already voted by the House, were 2,000,000l. for Portugal, and 400,000l for Sicily. There would be also among the items of supply, a sum of 2,000 000l to the East India Company, for advances made by them to government.

He had now gone through all the articles of supply already voted, and the Committee might naturally expect that he should say something of the vote of credit he was expected to ask before the close of the session. He was sure, that in the present state of Europe, the Committee would feel the necessity of arming government with sufficient means to enable them to take advantage of the favourable military and political circumstances which might present themselves. He intended, in consequence, to demand a vote of credit of 5 or 6,000,000l. for England, and 200,000l. as usual, for Ireland. He had not yet made up his mind, as to which of the sums he should ask, his determination depending on a contingency, which was, whether or no a sum of 1,100,000l. still unapplied out of the last vote of credit, should be disposed of before that period. He would, however, take in account the sum of 6,000,000l.; and this would bring the total of the joint charge for Great Britain and Ireland to 72,065,639l, There were, betides, several separate charges for England. The first was the Loyalty Loan, the charge of which was 171,836l. making 58,420l. more than last year. The next article of the separate charge was the interest on Exchequer bills, amounting to 1,800,000l. or 100,000l. more than last year; interest on debentures 40,000l.; grant to the Sinking Fund, in respect to Exchequer bills unprovided, 260,000l.; and, lastly, the vote of credit of 1812, 3,000,000l. The total of the separate charge for England giving a total of 5,271,836l. aud forming the aggregate amount of supply of 77,337,475l. Out of this were to be deducted the Irish proportion of the joint charge of 72,065,639l. which was 8,478,310l.; also the Irish proportion of the Civil List and Consolidated Fund, forming together 8,651,533l. to be deducted from the aggregate charge amount, and which would leave 68,685,942l. to be provided for by England.

The right hon. gentleman then briefly detailed the various articles of Ways and Means by which he proposed to meet that charge. The annual duties he would take to the same amount as last year, namely, 3,000,000l. The surplus of the Consolidated Fund he would take only at 500,000l. and should, before he sat down, explain his motive for so doing to the Committee. The net and disposable produce of the war taxes he would take at 21,000,000l. and to that amount of their produce was to be added such a portion of those taxes as had been previously appropriated to the payment of loans. The lottery, he would take at 200,000l,; it had, in fact, produced 220,000l. but he should take the nearest round sum. Exchequer bills had been funded to the amount of 15,775,800l. and this of course, constituted a part of the Ways and Means; but others had been issued to replace them partly. In funding those Exchequer bills, it had been intended to raise a sum of half the amount by means of debentures; the attempt had, however, been only partially successful, and had produced only 799,300l. or to take the next round sum 800,000l. It was intended to make up that deficiency, by issuing 3,000,000l. more of Exchequer bills, which would make the amount of those in circulation, equal to what it was last year. He trusted, that the committee would not accuse him of increasing the unfunded debt unnecessarily and without limit; but when it was considered how low he had taken the surplus of the Consolidated Fund, it might be reasonably expected that it would produce considerably more, which would tend of course to reduce the unfunded debts; and in consideration of that circumstance, he trusted that the money market would experience no inconvenience from leaving the amount of Exchequer bills the same as last year.

The next article of the Ways and Means, which had been for the first time introduced into it last year, was the sale of old naval stores. On this subject his right hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, had represented to him that Ireland was in justice entitled to her share of the produce of those sales. That claim he had admitted; and the amount of naval stores sold, being this year 601,908l., would leave for the service of England, after deducting the Irish proportion, 531,096l. The Ways and Means to meet the current expences of the year, would be completed by the loan of 21,000,000l. he had contracted, forming a total of 68,806,196l. leaving over and above the supplies a sum of 120,254l.

The right hon. gentleman then recapitulated the different items of the Supplies and Ways and Means, in the following order:

He had already apprised the committee, that he would acquaint them with the motives which had induced him to take the surplus of the Consolidated Fund at so low as 500,000l. The committee was aware, that there had been last year a deficit in the revenue of 1,500,000l. which, together with the additional charges laid on that fund last session, had occasioned a deficiency of 3,281,000l. in the surplus of the Consolidated Fund, as estimated for the year ending the 5th of April, 1813. This deficit had been principally felt in the malt and excise duties, where it had amounted to between two and three millions; and the other branches of revenue must have been proportionally prosperous in order to cover it in so great a degree. This was principally the case in respect to the war taxes; and the committee must be aware, that great improvement might also be expected in the collection of duties recently laid, as they became better understood, and better regalations framed to collect them. It should be observed, besides, that the deficit on the articles to which he had alluded, was owing to the depressed state of our manufactures, which considerably checked consumption; the use of sugar to distilleries had also lowered the produce of the duty on malt, and in the first quarter of the present year the dearness of that article had prevented its being used for that purpose; but all these causes were not likely to operate again on the Consoldated Fund, and, from those considerations, he had taken the surplus of the Consolidated Fund for the present year, at the average of three years, and omitting in that average the year ending the 5th of April last. From that average he should estimate the surplus of the Consolidated Fund for next year at 3,889,000l. but as the surplus of last year fell short of the estimate by 3,284,000l. that sum was to be made good by the surplus of this year, leaving a net produce of 608,000l. which he would, however, take at the round sum of 500,000l.

The right hon. gentleman then proceeded to give the Committee a detailed view of this componing part of the Con- solidated Fund, and of the estimate amount at which he would take each of the items.

The right hon. gentleman proceeded to show in what way he had formed his Estimates of the War Taxes.

It remained for him to state the conditions on which the Loan had been contracted. These he thought were so far satisfactory that all parties ought to be satisfied. They did not impose a greater burden on the public than was necessary, and if beneficial to the contractors, it was not so much so, as to give them an unfair advantage. For every 100l. subscribed they received 110l. in the 3 per cent. Reduced Annuities, 60l. in the 3 per cent. Consols, and 8s. 6d. in the Long Annuities. The charge to be provided for was very considerable. The capital debt created was 35,700,000l. the interest 1,160,250l. the one per cent. to the Sinking Fund 536,999l. To this was to be added for management, 11,379l.; making a total charge of 1,708,628l. The total debt created by funding in the present session, was 54,780,423l.; the interest on it was 2,062,066l. 18s. 4½. The per centage to the Sinking Fund amounted to 763,914l. 1s. 1d.; the charge for management was, 17,103l. 2s. 6¼d.; and the total charge to the public was 2,845,084l. 1s. 11¾d. The House would understand that he meant to propose to cancel such part of the debt as the sum in the hands of the commissioners was sufficient to cover. On this subject, he however thought it at present unnecessary to trouble the Committee, as other opportunities would occur for going into it; reserving to himself, therefore, the right of giving any explanation that might appear necessary, he should trouble them at present no farther. The right hon. gentleman then moved his first Resolution, which, as well as all the others, passed without any discussion.

said it was his duty now to address the Committee. If ever any man had to solicit the indulgence of the Committee it was for him to do it, being not only for the first time to bring under the view of parliament the financial situation of Ireland, but being called upon to provide for a demand beyond that of any former year, and to supply not only the means for the coming time, but to make up the deficiencies of that which had been truly stated by his right hon. friend Mr. Vansittart, to have been a year of unexampled expenditure. He would not occupy too much, he hoped, of the time of the Committee, yet he feared he could not avoid trespassing at what some would deem too great length upon their attention.

He would proceed to state as briefly as he could the different items of the Supply. They were as follows:

To meet which were,

The first Item in the Estimate, viz. the Surplus of the Consolidated Fund, stood thus:

The Charge upon the Loans contracted this year would be:

The Duties and Taxes to meet which he had proposed to the House in the course of the session, their produce he estimated as follows:

In devising the means of answering these charges, he felt that he was placed in a situation more disagreeable than any person who had preceded him in his office, had experienced. At a time, when the country was labouring under very considerable difficulties, he was obliged to call upon her for annual duties to meet the charges which he had just stated. To understand perfectly the exertions which Ireland was required to make, it was only necessary for the Committee to call to its recollection, what Great Britain had provided in the present year, and to contrast her contribution with that of Ireland. It would be found that Ireland was, at the present moment, charged with fresh impositions to the amount of upwards of 600,000l. He was aware, that it was the opinion of some gentlemen, that the system recently introduced in this country, might apply, in a certain degree, to Ireland; and that recourse might be had to the Sinking Fund. But, however this might be demanded, by the hope of avoiding fresh and onerous burdens, yet, the arguments applied to the principle in this country, could not be applied to Ireland in an equal extent. It had been his principal wish, in the taxes which he had already the honour to propose, several of which had met the concurrence of the House, and the sanction of parliament, to press as little as possible on the lower classes of the community; and to avoid bearing on those great sources of prosperity, which were absolutely necessary to the well-being of a rising country. To have pursued a contrary line, in a country deficient in resources, and possessing no great capital, would be the means of defeating her prosperity, and rendering ineffectual those burdens which were imposed on her. He had already stated, that the charge for the loans of the present year was 595,839l. He would now proceed to lay before the Committee, the means by which it was intended to meet that charge. He had already submitted to the House a proposition for the further increasing the rate of the custom duties in Ireland, that increase was 25 per cent. which was estimated to produce 77,326l. The increased duty of 12s. 9d. per 100lbs. on tobacco, was estimated at 43,722l. The additional duty on coffee, 1,900l. The increase of one-third of the difference between the British and Irish duties on foreign wines 40,565l. These, with one or two other alterations in existing taxes, formed an aggregate of 265,000l. It had been argued, at the time when he first proposed these alterations, that it was not possible to calculate on some of the articles so accurately as on others; but to prevent any disappointment which might be apprehended from that circumstance, care had been taken to lay the estimate as low as possible. At the same time, he did not think it could be fairly admitted, because a tax in the first instance had not reached the estimate, that therefore it would always continue unproductive. In the present instance, the sum likely to be produced by the additional duties was very considerably under-rated in the estimate, and it was very probable that the amount of the taxes generally would cover any diminution apprehended in particular items. The next duty was that which had already passed the House, the addition of 3s. per barrel on malt, the produce of which was estimated at 115,000l. The right hon. gentleman here entered into an elaborate detail of the data, on which he founded his assumption that this additional tax would produce the sum specified; particularly as it was accompanied by certain regulations with respect to the malt made use of in the distilleries. The next duty he had to notice, was one to which, if he could judge from the general leaning of the House, he could expect no opposition; he alluded to an additional duty of sixpence per gallon on spirits. It had been argued, that 3s. having been imposed on each barrel of malt, there should be a corresponding duty laid on spirits. He did not think that the addition of sixpence per gallon could materially affect the interests of the distiller; at the same time, he was assured, that an increase of duty on the distilleries was a measure which parliament ought not, and would not, in the present posture of affairs, be anxious to oppose. The amount of this additional duty on spirits, calculated on 4,400,000 gallons, a less quantity than was ever known to have been distilled in any one year, would be 110,000l.

He believed the consumption of spirits to be more than of twice the amount upon which he had made his calculation, and he did not despair if parliament would arm the executive government with sufficient power to put down the evil of illicit distillation, and if those, the best guardians and enforcers of the laws, the gentlemen of the country, those resident amongst the people and the most interested in the preservation of the public morals and the public peace, would lend their aid fairly to its suppression, he did not despair, while they would be providing best for the happiness, as well as they would promote most the industry of the people, of obtaining from the distillery in the ensuing year, a greater revenue than it has ever yet yielded to the state. It was known to those members for Ireland who had sat on the committee above stairs, and he was anxious to re-state in the House that assurance he had given them of the anxious wish of the government to accompany any strong measures which might be recurred to, to get rid of the pernicious practice of private distillation, by provisions for the encouragement of small stills throughout the country, and he hoped that the indulgences which he meant to extend to them by bringing the market home to the neighbourhood, and the door, as it were, of the farmer, would take away the inducements to this practice, while the enforcement of the law would punish its violation, if the practice should continue to prevail; upon this subject, however, he would not say more; he would wait until the proper time for the discussion of this point should arrive, and he had the satisfaction of thinking, that he had the almost unanimous support and sanction of the representatives of Ireland to the measure which the Committee had instructed him to introduce. The next duty he had to state was one to which parliament had already acceded, that was the augmentation of the assessed taxes; this augmentation was on the whole of their amount estimated at 25 per cent. It did not however operate generally as a duty of 25 per cent. because persons in the lower ranks of life, and who might be supposed unable to bear it, did not come within its scope to that extent. Its principal produce was expected from the rich; taking, therefore, the whole tax, he estimated it would produce 100,000l. The alteration in the postage duties, which had been agreed to by the legislature, he calculated to produce 15,000l. and a regulation of the excise duty on leather, which Was estimated at only 5,000l. The whole amount of these duties would be 610,000l. being 15,000l. more than the charges created by the loans. The recapitulation was as follows:—

He had laid before practical persons, conversant in calculations, several of these proposed duties, and they had estimated their produce at a much greater amount than he had taken them at.—Having thus stated to the Committee the taxes intended to be raised, it would not be amiss to compare the general state of Ireland, at the present day, with that of former years. Those, he believed, who were acquainted with the state of Ireland, and the nature of her resources, and who considered the calls which had been made upon her since the Union, could not suppose it possible for that country to have made greater sacrifices than she had done, during the period which had elapsed. Still, however, she had increased in prosperity, as might be perceived by a cursory view of the documents which he held in his hand. In 1802, the year immediately subsequent to the Union, the net produce of the revenues of Ireland, (the customs and excise being taken together), was 2,169,466l. In 1810, the customs alone amounted to 2,508,918l.; being 300,000l. more than the amount of the customs and excise in 1802. In 1811, the net produce of the customs amounted to 1,555,663l.; in 1812, to 1,838,653l.; and in 1813, to 2,157,591l.; being as much as the whole amount of the customs and excise in 1802. The whole statement produced this result, that the net revenue of Ireland, which in 1802 was 2,441,385l. had increased greatly, taking the average of the four last years, of which the year 1811 was remarkable for the number of defalcations.—The year 1810 produced 4,335,016l.; 1811, 3,673,714l.; 1812, 4,241,035l.; 1813, 4,975,000l. Here was an increase of more than 700,000l. in the present year above that which preceded it, and of 1,300,000l. above the year 1810. With respect to the debt of Ireland, it would be sufficient to state, that the redeemed debt, in 1801, was only 1,000,000l. while in the present year, it amounted to 16,886,345l. At the former period, the proportion of the sinking fund to the unredeemed debt, was one to eighty-one; while, at the present time, it was as one to fifty.—With respect to trade and navigation, they had increased very much in the last twelve years. Whatever opinions gentlemen might hold on the Act of Union itself, however strong the objections which they might have imbibed against it—(objections which he meant not to oppose, for, if he had had an opportunity, he would perhaps also have urged them at the time)—still, it was evident, from a comparison of the official value of exports for twelve years preceding, and twelve years succeeding the Union, that they had greatly increased in the latter period.

The same observation was applicable to the imports—

And the like favourable result would appear if any other averages of years were taken. Now, he was aware, that it might be argued, that the increase of imports was not always a proof of the increase of wealth; but it could not be supposed, that so great a difference could be produced in the course of twelve years, unless the country was in a flourishing state, particularly when gentlemen considered what the articles of import were, being principally the consumption of the higher classes of society. The number of ships which entered inwards in the twelve years—

And a similar increase was observable in their tonnage. The right hon. gentle- man then enumerated the principal articles of exports, viz. barley, oats, wheat, flour, oxen and cows, sheep, swine, bacon, butter, and pork, and pointed out the increase which had taken place in their exportation during the last twelve years, and noticed that the export of wheat in the last two years was 703,846 barrels, which exceeds the exports of the twelve years immediately preceding the Union—and he hoped for still more extensive results, if the beneficial measure which his hon. friend, sir Henry Parnell, was to introduce, and which he should certainly support, should receive the sanction of the legislature.

With respect to the general improvement of the country, it was pretty evident from the state of the exchange between Great Britain and Ireland, which, notwithstanding the sums annually transmitted to absentees, was very much decreased. The rate of exchange was formerly as high as 17; but in the present year it fell to five one-half or one-fourth. Many objections had been made in former years, when the Irish budget was brought forward—one of these was the high charge of the collection and management of the revenue. He was happy to announce, that a very great improvement had taken place in that respect. The right hon. gentleman then entered into a statement to shew the saving which had taken place in the collection of the revenue since 1811; from which it appeared, that the gross revenue was now collected 5 per cent. under the rate of that year; and the net revenue 8 per cent. In the Post Office department, the revenue was now collected at a much more moderate rate, and with much greater ease than formerly. The difference in the rate at which the net revenue of that department had been collected, being 20 per cent. less than the preceding year.

The right hon. gentleman then observed that Ireland would not bear in addition to the taxation already imposed upon her—those strong direct taxes in the contemplation of some gentlemen, without trenching on those resources which were the foundation of her prosperity. He was favourable to an union of the financial departments of the two countries, from which he conceived most beneficial results would be derived. He was aware that a more efficient controul of the departments would be one of the first consequences, of establishments, and a diminution of ex- penditure. He went however no farther than to desire to unite the treasuries and to consolidate the debts. For if gentlemen supposed that Ireland could afford a contribution, on the same principles as England, even in the proportion which her growing means, and increasing population might induce them to reckon on, they would find themselves greatly mistaken indeed; even those who calculated on a great increase of general receipt, by the imposition of these taxes which Great Britain paid, were deceiving the country and themselves. Ireland now paid taxes on her consumption, from which Great Britain was exempted—the principal articles of that consumption were of British manufacture and of British produce—and besides those articles, which were charged with heavier imposts, Ireland paid nearly 300,000l. per annum, on the importation of articles, most of them of prime necessity, none of which were liable to any internal duty in Great Britain. It would scarcely be contended by the warmest advocate for what was called vigorous taxation, that if the financial system of the two countries were to be in other respects assimilated, that the Irish people were still to be subjected to duties such as these; to preserve them as protecting duties would be in his mind the most puerile economy; since it was no other than to compel every consumer in Ireland to pay more than the article of his consumption was worth, or than he ought to pay for it.

Here then there would be a loss of near 300,000l. per annum in our customs, which the new system of finance must supply. But there was much more. The property tax payable on the interest of the Irish debt received in this country, would surely be considered applicable to the Irish supply, and ought to be carried to the account of that country, which provided with such difficulty for its charge. The same result would arise respecting the property of Irish absentees; at least in equity he was sure it ought, and the deduction on these two last mentioned grounds be at least half a million from the general resources of the empire. On this he only estimated the remittances to absentees at two millions, which was the amount presumed in the year 1804, when a committee of the House of Commons enquired into the state of the exchanges between Great Britain and Ireland—at the same time he had little doubt that the proportion of absentees was greatly increased—The number who had followed the seat of legislation and of government was necessarily great, and he was sorry to say that many who had not the same excuse daily added to those, who drew the sole sources of their support from the country which they deserted. The two heads which he adverted to would altogether diminish the general supply of Great Britain by the amount of half a million, while the duties on articles of consumption imported into Ireland, and the produce of your hearth and other duties, which he was prepared to contend could not, if you introduced, or rather attempted to introduce the taxes paid in Great Britain, any longer retain, would shew you that one million per annum of this expected revenue which was to flow into the imperial treasury, was not in fact any addition or increase to the general resources of the state.

He wished to apply those illustrations not against any measure, which others might recommend, nor wishing to conceal from himself nor from the House, the efforts we should in future years be called upon to make. But he wished the sanguine calculators of increased revenue, who, be it observed, were not those persons best acquainted with the means or circumstances of Ireland, to pause before they jumped to their conclusion, and to bear in recollection, that all that might be added to a financial statement was not necessarily added to the revenue of Ireland, or to the general receipt and income of the empire. With respect to the contribution of Ireland of sixteen millions and a half, he who had to propose measures to parliament to provide, could not but contemplate with apprehension, such an increase of our proportion; but aware, as he must be, of the difficulties which it imposed upon himself, and not disguising from the committee what the pressure of it must ultimately be, it would still be unfair to draw any comparison from the last and the present year of extended military operations, and increased expenditure in every part of the world, which had occasioned to us so heavy a charge. He would not advert to what that calculation at the time of the Union might have been; the political circumstances which had since occurred could not then have been contemplated by any statesman; but this he would say, that unless the circumstances of the country were exceedingly altered, unless there was a diminution of our expenditure, it was impossible for Ireland to go on at this rate of contribution. Parliament ought not to deceive itself, at least he would not lend himself to the deception. Did any man suppose that a country, the annual revenue of which was only 5 millions, could go on raising 16 millions per annum. Ireland must borrow to pay this contribution, and he who hoped that she could supply the rest by war taxes, as in Great Britain, or by supplies raised to any great extent within the year, must be ignorant indeed of the circumstances of the country which he was undertaking to administer. He at least would, until every other means of supply were exhausted, warn parliament against what even in a financial point of view, would be deemed fatal to the growing wealth, and to that which could not grow without wealth, the future productive revenue of the country—the exertions of Ireland,—and he spoke of a country, of the state of which, limited as his official experience had been, he was yet uninformed, the exertions of Ireland, had been great—Great Britain was to raise in the present year twelve hundred thousand pounds by new taxes—Ireland was called upon to provide more than half that sum by new duties—Ireland, a country bearing no comparison in point of natural or improved resources. In the year 1785, when Mr. Pitt proposed new taxes to the amount of 900,000l. per annum, it was deemed after the duration of the American contest, and the exhaustion of the national means, the greatest effort which any country had ever made to redeem the public difficulty—in less than 30 years, after a war of more protracted length, of at least undiminished sacrifice and increased expence, Ireland, the whole of whose annual income at that time did not exceed the duties that the British parliament then imposed, has within less than 30 years undertaken to provide six hundred thousand pounds, being in the last two years a contribution by fresh taxes, more than her whole income amounted to at the time that the commercial propositions were discussed. Let me not then be told that Ireland withholds herself in this instance, or that those who are responsible as her administration, endeavour to obtain for her a partial remission, which England has not received. We are making fair, and great, and generous exertions in the cause of Great Britain, a cause in the support of which we are not only pledged by compact, but which our country is, I admit, bound to combat for by every principle of mutual interest and of common safety. If, said the right hon. gentleman, that part of the United Kingdom is not called upon to struggle beyond her strength, if her means are not outrun, trust me, she will yet prove to the empire a source of supply and of succour, such as the most sanguine mind has not, perhaps, contemplated. Do not attempt to anticipate too rashly her growing powers; if you anticipate you crush them. I wish my right hon. friends may feel with me; whether I or another (said the right hon. gentleman), may, in another year, fill that situation which now I have the honour to hold, I know not; but the legislature will, I hope, act upon the same principles; and I am confident that Great Britain will yet find in our increasing population, in the improved fertility of our soil, in our extended industry, and augmented means, that Ireland will in point of contribution, be enabled to make not less exertions than in other respects she has already made, or than the empire already owes to the loyalty, the hardihood, and the valour of her people.—The right hon. gentleman concluded with moving the first Resolution relative to the additional duty on spirits.

rose principally for the purpose of apprizing the House that it was his intention, on some future occasion, to state some general opinions as to the system of Irish finance. As to the right hon. gentleman he had acknowledged that he had only followed the system of his predecessors. That system, however, appeared to him to be radically bad, and he thought that Ireland was in a state to which the system of taxation adopted in this country was peculiarly applicable. He thought that Ireland never would contribute its fair proportion, or have a suitable revenue until the present system was utterly abolished. He complained of the manner in which a return had been made, in consequence of a paper that he had moved for. What he wanted to know was, the estimated produce of the taxes lately imposed, as well as the real produce.

declared, that the situation of Ireland was not such as to admit of the introduction of the system of taxation adopted in this country. At the period of the Union, when the proportion was settled which the two countries should pay, the expences of the empire were but 25 milllions, whereas, now they are 72 millions. It never could have been expected that Ireland would have been able to pay two-seventeenths of so large a sum as this, or that her resources to meet so great an increase of expenditure could at all keep pace with those of this country, If they endeavoured to make her do so they would make her burst like the ox in the fable, and render her wholly useless. He wished to see the treasures and debts of both countries consolidated.

also entirely disapproved of the sentiments of the hon. member (Mr. Bankes). The system of taxation adopted in this country, could not be applied to Ireland without producing the greatest confusion and distress. As to the property tax, he was convinced that no medium of fair assessment would be found, if that tax were introduced into Ireland. Instead of fair assessment, one class of persons would be enabled to throw all the burdens upon others, and not contribute their own proportion. He considered, that without the imposition of fresh taxes, the revenue would be more increased by an effectual control over the treasury. He instanced the case of the legacy duty, which was so productive in this country, and yet produced little or nothing in Ireland. He had been obliged to propose penalties for not proving wills within a certain time, but although the penalties incurred were extremely great, the government never sued for them. Among the offenders were judges of the land, and even the counsel to the commissioners, and the frequency of the offence, and the largeness of the penalties incurred, were assigned as the reason for not suing for them. If there were so little pains taken in the collection of the revenue, it was not surprising that it should be unproductive. He then adverted to the case of a commissioner of the Stamp-office, who resigned the place, on finding that it was not a sinecure. He also stated, as a marked difference between the taxation in this country and in Ireland, that a great part of the revenue of this country was from foreign trade, whereas Ireland had very little foreign trade.

thought he had reason to complain of the right hon. baronet's always stating abuses, as if they still existed, and no effort had been made to put an end to them; but it was in consequence of the regulations made while he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the commissioner to whom the right hon. baronet had alluded had resigned. Every gentleman was aware, that the department of the stamps was most complicated, and the evils which were so great, were not to be corrected in a moment. That they were in a state of correction, the amendment of the revenue proved. It was another old assertion of the right hon. baronet, that the interference of the Castle was injurious to the collection of the revenue, but he was of opinion, that if the patronage were transferred to the Boards, the revenue would not be as well collected as at present.

repeated his assertion that the legacy tax was not collected, and that penalties incurred by judges of the land and the counsel to the commissioners of the revenue, who ought to be cognizant of the law, were not enforced, adding that those penalties were incurred in the years 1809, 10, and 11.

defied the right hon. baronet to produce one instance in which any defaulter whatever in the revenue had been screened from punishment by the Irish government upon the delinquency of such defaulter being brought under its consideration. With regard to the department of stamps, that question was, he understood, to be brought forward by the right hon. baronet as a separate motion, and as to the other departments of the revenue, while adequate measures were adopted rigorously to enforce the regulations mentioned by the right hon. gentleman (W. Pole) with a view to the collection of the revenue in future, directions had been very recently given by the Irish government to select the most conspicuous among the defaulters heretofore, in order that the most exemplary punishment should be inflicted.

observed, that there was a radical error in the system of appointment to offices in Ireland, the officers for the collection of the revenue being nominated by the Lord Lieutenant instead of being selected by the Treasury Board, under whom these officers were more immediately to act, which was the practice in this country. But this was not the only difference between the system of the two countries, the officers in all the departments under government being appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, instead of being selected by the Boards under which they were respectively to act; and who were of course most competent to make a proper choice. No view to patronage should, he thought, permit the continuance of such a deviation from the better practice of England.

in answer to the challenge of the Irish secretary (Mr. Peel), mentioned the case of Beauchamp Hill, which case was on the Journals of the House. This Mr. Hill was, it appeared, appointed to a higher office in the revenue after he had himself confessed that he had been in the habit of receiving bribes from those from whom it was his duty to collect the revenue; nay, he was appointed to the office of Inspector to check illicit distillation, after having confessedly received bribes from distillers to suppress the collection of the revenue, and the appointment was made in the very teeth of the law.

observed, that no part of the present Irish government was responsible for the appointment mentioned by the right hon. baronet; nor need he add that such an appointment would not be made by any one now connected with the government of Ireland. It was, however, due to the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) who made that appointment, to restate that right hon. gentleman's observation, when the appointment quoted was beforementioned, namely, that he (Mr. Foster) found the practice, confessed by Mr. Hill, so general, if not so universal among revenue officers, that if he were to exclude all those so receiving illegal fees, he should not be able to find any officers acquainted with business [a laugh and hear!]. The right hon. gentleman assured those who cheered, that he was not offering this as his argument. Further, the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) stated, that the acceptance of such illegal fees arose out of the very inadequate salary allowed to revenue officers, which inadequacy he removed. Upon this point he (Mr. Fitzgerald) added, that it was proposed to introduce a clause into the new revenue act, imposing a permanent disqualification upon any officer so accepting fees, as the officer alluded to was stated to have done. Adverting to the animadversion of Mr. Bankes, the right hon. gentleman observed, that the assertion of the hon. gentleman, as to the inadequate contribution of Ireland to the expences of the empire, was rather unseasonable at a period when the Irish nation was about to contribute no less than sixteen millions to the common-stock of the year, and to pay in additional taxes 610,000l. which amounted to one-half of the addition to which rich and happy England was subjected. When it was recollected that Mr. Pitt in 1785 rated the utmost effort of England at only 900,000l. additional taxation, and when it was considered that the revenue of Ireland, within the last year, had been increased one-sixth, notwithstanding its sacrifice of one source of revenue to the necessity of England, in stopping distillation from grain, he thought the resources of Ireland, and the manner in which its revenue was collected, were not liable to the animadversions which the House had heard from the hon. gentleman and others.

would say one word as to the appointment of Mr. Beauchamp Hill, which was not in consequence of any political opinions or connections: he had taken fees, such as other officers had taken: he was the first to acquaint the government that he had taken the fees; and in consequence of his being a most able officer, he had been promoted.

The Resolutions were then agreed to, and the House resumed. On the question that the Report be received to-morrow,

expressed his surprize at such an extraordinary motion: first, because the generality of the members could have no notion that such a report would be brought up so very soon after the resolutions were adopted; and next, because it was proposed to bring it up on a day when it was quite unusual for the House to sit. Such a proceeding was, he believed, without precedent, and when the amount of the loan was considered, exceeding by far any sum ever before raised in England, at an interest, as he calculated, of about 5l. 15s. per cent., when it was considered, that the sums borrowed within the year, in various ways, amounted to 50 millions, and that the whole of our general expence would reach to from 115 to 120 millions, he appealed to the right hon. gentleman whether it would be fit or decent to proceed with the precipitancy proposed upon such an important subject?

thought that sufficient opportunity would offer for any discussion which the right hon. gentleman might think proper to bring forward upon this subject. He would not, however, press the reading of the whole of the Resolutions to-morrow; but he hoped the right hon. gentleman would have no objection to the reading of the Resolutions respecting the loan to-morrow (if he did not disapprove of the contrast), allowing the other resolutions to stand over until Monday.

would not object to the reading of the Resolutions mentioned by the right hon. gentleman, if such a proceeding were necessary to the public service. He would not, as he had before said, oppose the grant of any supplies which ministers might think proper to require; but there was a difference between obstructing supplies and calling the attention of the House to the amount of those supplies, the manner in which they were raised, and the purposes to which they were applied. Ample opportunity for the consideration of such an extensive subject he thought peculiarly necessary. It was, indeed, highly desirable to examine and explain the financial state of the country, of which he believed the generality of the public were completely ignorant.

observed, that the usual period for discussing the financial state of the country was upon the consideration of the Resolutions generally proposed towards the close of the session. The right hon. gentleman would, however, have many other opportunities for such discussion, if he thought proper to avail himself of them, in the progress of the Bills to be founded on the Resolutions agreed to by the Committee; but he trusted to the candour of the right hon. gentleman that he would not obstruct the ratification of the Resolutions respecting a loan, the terms of which were not at all objected to when first stated, and any obstruction to which might be productive of much public inconvenience.

said, he knew that there would be other stages for discussion, but thought the Report the most proper stage for debate.

observed, that the regular mode of proceeding would be to have the whole Report brought up to-morrow, and when it was brought up, to consider only that part of it which related to the Loan, postponing the consideration of the other parts, by ordering the Report to be taken into consideration on some future day.

The Report was then ordered to be received to-morrow.

moved the order of the day, to consider of the Resolutions, which, on the 5th instant, were reported from the Committee of the whole House, to whom it was referred to consider of the Affairs of the East India Company.

rose, and declared he thought it incumbent on the House at that late period of the session not to proceed further in a measure fraught either with incalculable good or evil, not only to this country, but to sixty millions of men in India, The question was regarded unfortunately, merely as a commercial contest between the Company and the outports, whilst the ministers, acting as mediators, had produced a motley plan built upon compromise, but satisfactory to no party. An hon. director (Mr. Grant), to whose talents, information and integrity he was fully disposed to pay his tribute of respect, had declared that it was impossible the Company could execute the conditions involved in the third Resolution. Whenever any plan was to be adopted in the nature of a contract, it was essentially necessary that the contracting parties should respectively be satisfied with the terms of the arrangement. One of the principal defects in the system contained and embodied in the Resolutions was, that no principle of sovereignty was expressed, and none of the primary obligations of all good government recognized. In a minute of council at Calcutta, in the year 1804, it was declared to be the paramount duty of those exercising sovereignty in India to exercise it for the benefit of the people in India, and to secure to them the full and secure enjoyment of their properties and labour. In the spirit of the declaration now alluded to he would say, that all arbitrary valuations were inconsistent with that duty, and that to deny the advantages of free competition was in effect to impose an arbitrary valuation. He could not, for his own part, admit the existence of any danger from the intercourse of the traders of this country with the natives of India, but thought it must tend greatly to their improvement and advantage. The agents of foreign merchants were admitted by the present regulations of the resident government, and he was too well persuaded of the character of British merchants to be under any apprehension from their general conduct. Never before had so vast and comprehensive a subject engaged the attention of parliament. The question was, whether the House would re-seat on the throne of Aurungzebe the chairman of the court of directors? or, whether by the free and honourable competition of British merchants, the industry of our Indian subjects should be excited and the wants common to them with the rest of the world gratified by the pursuits of an active commerce? At all events, deliberation, the most mature and cautious deliberation, was necessary in legislating for such mighty interests, and with this opinion influencing his judgment, he should move, with a view of inducing the House next session to abolish the monopoly altogether, that the further consideration of the Report be postponed to that day three months.

said, that if he, could at all persuade himself that what the right hon. baronet proposed would in any way assist the House in coming to a decision upon the subject, he would willingly adopt the amendment which he had proposed. He never had seen parliament come to any discussion of such importance more calmly, nor with greater prospect of arriving at a satisfactory decision than they had done on that question. It did appear to him, that with a view to the attainment of the object of the right hon. baronet, the course which he had just proposed was a mistaken one; for if he succeeded in making the House give up the prosecution of the subject in the stage in which it then was, he would leave the question precisely in that situation, which with regard to the object of the right hon. baronet was least desirable, as, when the question came again to be discussed, there would be no opportunity of referring to the preliminary decisions of parliament. Were he in the place of the right hon. baronet he would press the House to consider the Report, and even to have the Bill brought in, that there might be an opportunity of seeing how it was intended that the principles on which the Resolutions were framed should be applied. One object of the right hon. baronet, in wishing for the decision to be postponed was, that he expected he should be enabled to succeed in persuading the House to abolish the monopoly of the Company entirely, and to transfer at once to the great body of British merchants the trade to India. For his own part, he could not help thinking that such a measure would be a serious calamity. Unless the House came to a decision during that session, the great body of merchants would be tied up from making any exertions; and therefore he conceived that ministers would be guilty of a dereliction of their duty, if they postponed the decision of that important question. He hoped that next week he should be able to bring in the Bill.

insisted that the most important part of this mighty subject had been overlooked or neglected, and while the commercial quarrel was fomented between the Company and the out-ports, the interests of fifty millions of people in the East were considered unworthy the attention of the legislature: he took shame to himself for his comparative ignorance upon India subjects, but more shame belonged to the House that it always treated them with unmerited indifference. He complained that the out-ports had not produced the satisfactory evidence they so loudly boasted, and that the question had been already so much delayed, that a due consideration during the present session was impossible. He then entered into the history of the various discussions upon this subject, to shew that government had been culpably dilatory in bringing it forward, and remarked in severe terms upon the inconsistency of lord Castlereagh, who, before so vehement an advocate in favour of extending the influence of the crown, was now so squeamish as to stickle for points of little importance connected with it. The truth was, that the ministerial tools into which the Company would be converted would soon crumble away, and the controul of India, its patronage, and its wealth, would quietly fall into the hands of ministers. The only mode of deciding was to allow of no disgraceful compromise. The question ought to be—Company, or no Company!—Monopoly, or no Monopoly!—If it ought to be destroyed, destroy it!—if it ought to be maintained, maintain it! For his part, if a wish would destroy our territorial possessions in India, he would wish them annihilated, or at least wrested from Great Britain. The hon. member disputed the justice of the eulogium passed upon the Company by Mr. Grant, jun. on a former night, and detailed to the House the various acts and proceedings from 1773 to 1793, to shew that it had always been deemed incompetent to the conduct of the government of India, and after all these steps to shew that the Company was worth nothing, they were now to be allowed a precarious existence to continue that government, when 30 years ago they had been cashiered of all power and declared inefficient. He quoted lord Castlereagh's opinions when president of the Board of Controul, shewing that he had nine years since declared that the Company ought not and could not exist longer, and yet now insisted that it ought to be supported. He passed a high encomium upon the character and conduct of marquis Corn-wallis, and censured, in terms equally severe, the acts of marquis Wellesley in India, insisting that he had destroyed much happiness, and contending that we must not "lay the flattering unction to our souls," that the people of India were happier or more prosperous under the government of Great Britain than under the authority of their own native princes. With respect to the evidence produced on the part of the East India Company, the witnesses, however respectable, were bred and had risen to wealth and fame under the monopoly of the Company. These witnesses, too, were so much at variance with themselves, that before he ventured to pronounce on the question he should like to have other evidence to confront with them. The gentlemen of the out-ports had not dealt fairly with the House. Expeditition was every thing with them. For his part, he was no East India proprietor, nor in any wise connected with the out-ports, but as a member of parliament he wanted information. A noble lord in another House (lord Grenville^*) had given to the world a speech upon this question, with the sentiments of which he completely agreed. We were every day hearing of the degeneracy of the times in which we lived; but it would be degenerate indeed, even for these our days, if we were not able at once to take to the crown what was the right of the crown—to take it boldly, and not circuitously—and open the trade to the whole of the empire. They had been told of the dangerous consequences which might ensue in India—the difficulty of preventing smuggling—and the danger of allowing any but the servants of the East India Company to go to Canton, while the American subjects were, it was well known, already there. He was amazed that the member for Liverpool should have given up the China trade so easily. This was the most important branch of the whole, and the one where there was the least danger to be apprehended from smuggling. But the noble lord (Castlereagh) had said that the Company must be kept alive, and it was to be kept alive, that he might be the governor of them. The China trade was the breath with which the Company was to be kept alive. The noble lord had after- wards said, or seemed to say—for sometimes the noble lord seemed to say something, when he said nothing—that the experiment by which they should know whether the Company was alive, was their ability of paying their dividend. So that if the China trade was not sufficient to keep the Company alive, then came the death-blow of the Company; and at last the noble lord would come down to the House and tell them, that as the dividend could no longer be paid, the Company was at an end. Then, when every thing would be involved in convulsion and confusion, the whole would necessarily fall, unguarded and unprotected, into the power of the crown. The hon. gentleman concluded with observing, that among various topics of great importance, which still called for discussion, the 13th Resolution, which related to the diffusion of light and knowledge in India, was not the least. It was one which did not admit of halting between two opinions; and which, after mature consideration, ought to be followed up by every wise and adequate measures which the legislature and the government were capable of adopting and carrying into effect.

^* See vol. 25, p. 709.

said, that the question before the House was whether the Resolutions of the Committee should be now taken into consideration, or postponed to a distant period. The hon. gentleman who had last spoken, had grounded his conviction of the necessity of delay upon his own assumptions and assertions; for although he had argued that the happiness of 60 millions of people in Asia depended upon the decision of the House, yet he had not thought proper to offer any proofs of the abuses and wrongs under which they were supposed to labour. The hon. gentleman had indeed adverted to many cases of calamity and misery in India, but he had at the same time, passed over all the improvements that had taken place, and all the regulations respecting the proprietorship of land, and the administration of justice, which had been introduced since the period of 1793.—While he approved of certain modifications which might be suggested in the government, he was ready to maintain that the present system, as a whole, ought to be preserved. It was in fact requisite that the exercise of the government should continue to be vested in the Company, and that a controlling power should exist in the crown. He was glad to hear, that it was the noble lord's inten- tion to persist in pressing the adoption of a Bill this session, founded as it would be, upon the Resolutions; for he was convinced, that not only very serious inconveniences, but considerable danger would result, both at home and in India, from any farther delay.

could not agree with the right hon. baronet's amendment for delaying the question three months longer. Exclusively of the inconvenience and danger which would attend the measure, it would also be productive of great hazard and uncertainty. He certainly did not approve of the Resolutions in their present state, nor could he agree to the proposed delay, but he thought, that under every circumstance, the House was bound to come, even at this late period of the session, to a decision. He felt, however, an earnest hope, whatever might be the final arrangement of parliament respecting the affairs of India, that his constituents would give to that arrangement all possible attention, and be ready to adhere to its meaning and spirit.

said the House would not discharge their duty to their constituents nor to the people of India, if they did not take the proper time for becoming acquainted with this question. A number of witnesses had been brought forward, who were acknowledged to be frequently at variance with each other. There were documents on the table, shewing not only the grossest mismanagement of India, but the utter want of protection of the people of that country. The administration of justice in India was in many points entitled to praise; but it was in evidence from the very judges in India themselves, that the system was erroneous, and not adapted to give prisoners a fair trial. They were called on by the advocates of the Company, to name abuses in the government of the Company of late years. Was not Madras almost lost by what, in his opinion, was misconduct on the part of sir George Barlow?

said, that if he consulted his own feelings on the subject, he should vote against the amendment of his right hon. friend, as he wished that this important subject should be disposed of as soon as it possibly could; but, on the other hand, the more he attended the debates the more he was convinced that prolonged discussion would be of the utmost advantage to the Indian empire. Great inconveniencies would (he was aware) arise from adjourning the subject at that time, but greater still from adjourning it, as the noble lord would do, after the Resolutions had been agreed to.—[No! from lord Castlereagh]—The noble lord said, that when the Bill was brought in it would be the best time for proposing an adjournment: but in his (Mr. T.'3) opinion, it was the very worst; for if the question was to be postponed, it would be better that it should be done before the House was shackled by any declaration of its opinions. There would be no regard to decency in finishing the question altogether this session. From the numerous notices on the three first Resolutions, it was impossible that they could be disposed of before next Wednesday or Thursday; then they were to be taken into consideration by the Lords, and could not be returned from their lordships before the middle of the week after next. Then came the Bill under very different circumstances from any one on this subject, that had at any previous time come under the consideration of the House. In other cases there had always been some compromise between the government and the Company; but now they were as far apart as they could be, and every debate shewed the Company in a still stronger light, the jeopardy they were in. The Bill being in the nature and even the terms of an agreement, must be submitted to the other party—the court of proprietors; and as they would probably object to it, a ballot would take place, so that it could not come for discussion before the latter end of July. Would gentlemen, he would ask, wish to stay in town through the month of August? If so, all was well. But he was much afraid, that they would be left (as they were during the last session, when voting one hundred and thirteen millions) with a House of five-and-twenty gentlemen. If the Resolutions were agreed to, and the Bill postponed, what inconveniences would arise from this determination going out to. India—a sentence of death to the Company, with a reprieve for twelve months. He should be very willing himself to sit to the middle of August, if there appeared a possibility of finishing the business this session; but as there was not, he should, with unfeigned regret, vote for the proposed adjournment. If the country were persuaded that the intention was to take the whole patronage of India into the hands of the crown, he was convinced that so strong would be the feeling of the public against it, that their table would be loaded with petitions in favour of the Company. And he was persuaded that the Company must be left untouched, except regulations as to trade, or the government of India turned over to the crown.

said, that so far from having any doubts as to the possibility of passing the Bill that session, the reverse was the case. His course of proceeding would be, to found a Bill immediately on the Resolutions; and he thought there would be no difficulty in prosecuting the subject to a termination during this session. The House had prolonged its session at various times on subjects of less importance: but he did not conceive any such delay would be at this time necessary.

had heard no argument for delaying the measure which might not, in his opinion, be urged with equal propriety at any other time. With respect to the objections which had been advanced, that the out-ports had not brought forward any evidence in support of their claims to a participation in the trade; he deemed not only the absence of that testimony a proof of the justice of their claims, but considered it an additional reason why their pretensions should be attended to, since they were content to leave them to the candid and impartial judgment of the House. He thought, after all the enquiry which had taken place, that delay, in the present advanced state of discussion, would be worse than almost any decision, as it could not fail to give strength to conflicting opinions, and to increase that restlessness of contention which might lead to very dangerous consequences. If the consideration of the question were adjourned to the next session, it would be necessary to go over all that had been done, and to retrace all the steps which had been taken. He had to express his concern, that the affairs of India had not at all times commanded that attention to which they were entitled, but he earnestly hoped that a more watchful eye would be kept upon them, particularly after the present Bill, which he trusted would be passed. He thought, however, that the extension of time ought not to exceed the hope of any gentleman then in the House, of witnessing its revival on a future day. He was happy to hear the sentiments of the hon. gentleman near him, with respect to the manner in which the measure would be received by the Company.

begged to be understood as not having hazarded any opinion on the subject of the Company's acceptance of the arrangement. He had merely stated, that if it were imposed upon the Company as a duly, they would feel themselves bound to adhere to its spirit.

agreed in the observations which had fallen from his right hon. friend who moved the adjournment, and did not think that the House could come conscientiously to a decision during the present session upon so extensive and important a topic as the government of sixty millions of people. He denied that the benefit of the discussions which had already taken place would be lost by a postponement of the subject to the next session. He was sure that the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, did not mean seriously when he urged such an argument. Indeed, he thought the opinions of that right hon. gentleman, were more in accordance with the impatience of those whom he represented in that House, than they were consistent with his own clear and conscientious view of the question. Independent of the present topic, there were a variety of other most important subjects, which would occupy the attention of the House, and which would protract the sittings to such an extent, that the question of Indian policy would at length be abandoned to ministers altogether. It might be said that a full attendance might be obtained by enforcing and keeping up an order for a call of the House; but this was a proceeding which he apprehended would not be very agreeable to the generality of the gentlemen who had seats in that House. He was persuaded that the House would do an infinitely more acceptable service to the people of India by postponing this question to next session, than by coming to an immediate conclusion. For these reasons he would vote for the proposition of his right hon. friend, not because he thought it was the best mode of taking the sense of the House; for he thought some more eligible method might have been adopted; but because he thought it was immaterial what was the manner in which the feelings of the House was collected.

opposed any delay of the measure, and denied that any satisfactory ground had been assigned for deferring the question to a future session.

was in favour of delay, upon the ground that the House had not yet had time to make up their minds upon a subject of such magnitude.

The question was then loudly called for, and a division took place,

After the division,

stated his determination, if the further consideration of the Report of the Committee on the Company's affairs, should take place immediately, to take the sense of the House on an amendment of the Resolution, granting the monopoly of the Chinese trade, having for its object to limit the duration of such monopoly to ten years.

then consented to postpone the further consideration of the Report till Monday, and the question being put to that effect, was carried in the affirmative.