moved the order of the day, for calling Thomas Croggon to the bar to be discharged, and congratulated the House on the abrogation of the precedent, that no person committed should be discharged but on petition.

Thomas Croggon was accordingly brought to the bar, where he received the following reprimand from Mr. Speaker, and was ordered to be discharged out of custody, paying his fees.

"Thomas Croggon,

"This House having had under its consideration the proceedings which took place at the last election for the borough of Tregony:—Resolved, 'That you did openly and corruptly endeavour to procure the return of two persons to serve in parliament for that borough, by means contrary to the right and freedom of election, and contrary to the laws and constitution of the realm:'—and for that offence you were committed to his Majesty's gaol of Newgate.

"In these transactions it appears, according to the evidence, that the part which you bore was prominent and profligate; inviting some persons, by promises of a large reward, to undertake the general task of corrupting the borough; and holding out to others the prospect of a specific fund, out of which the price would be paid for their individual votes; so flagrant an offence this House has justly visited with its severest indignation,

"Nevertheless, the imprisonment which you have now suffered for this misconduct has at length induced the House to consent to your discharge, hoping that the notoriety of your punishment may contribute to check the recurrence of similar practices: and you are therefore now discharged, paying your fees."

moved, that the Report of the Committee of Supply be taken into consideration.

The Resolution on the Swedish subsidy being read,

rose. He said he had no intention of disagreeing from the Resolution, but was desirous of offering a few observations in order to stale his opinion to the House upon the subject. He desired that the Resolution of the House, passed in 1796, on the subject of a subsidy to the emperor of Austria, might be read: it expressed a hope that no precedent would be drawn from that proceeding, except in cases of extreme emergency. This was a caution to future time, that no money should be advanced, during the sitting of parliament, without notice given to the parliament. There might be many cases of diplomacy which required secrecy: he did not think that the present was one; there could have been no reason for concealing the transaction as a whole, whatever grounds might exist for suppressing particular articles. There was here no ground for secrecy as to the subject itself, whatever there might be as to the articles of it, the existence of the treaty between Russia and Sweden hav- ing been communicated to Denmark; and also that England was a party to it. The House had a right to complain that it had been kept in the dark so long. His own general view of the late treaty was, that it of all others was the treaty for which this country was to pay the most, and to receive the least. All that we gained by it was the giving a priority to the continental expedition before the seizure of Norway. This at least, though not expressed, was he supposed implied in the treaty. But he had to complain of the ambiguity of its language, which was so great, that he thought no gentleman could explicitly interpret all its articles: he was afraid that not even the noble lord would be able to give him satisfactory answers to some questions which he should put. It was a general fault in the treaty that no mention was made of the mode or time of commencing the campaign: though it was exceedingly material that such a body of troops under such a commander as the Crown Prince of Sweden should have been employed at the very beginning of the campaign, and not now when the affairs of the allies were in a state so deplorable. Another fault was, that we must perform all, and receive nothing: we must sit down with the loss of a large subsidy, and of an island important as to trade and revenue, and as far as he could understand the treaty receive nothing in return; for Sweden only engaged to act in conjunction with a Russian force: but there was no stipulation between us and Russia to that effect. He would ask, therefore, whether the direct co-operation of Sweden did not depend on the junction of 30,000 Russians? If so, we were in this dilemma: Sweden and England might be disposed to fulfil the treaty, and yet be prevented by the unwillingness or inability of a third power, not a party to the engagement. There was no slackness on the behalf of Russia, but she was not able to furnish her contingent of men: a probability of hazard which was incurred at the time of making this improvident treaty. Was the Crown Prince bound to act without this contingent? He conceived that he clearly was not bound. He would ask, whether Sweden was a party to the present armistice, if she was, whether the payment of the monthly subsidy was to go on during the cessation of hostilities, and if this armistice ended in a continental peace, what steps were taken to provide a reciprocation of interests? He might appear to the noble lord to be talking absurdly, but he knew not himself where the absurdity lay: the troops were to be paid when they arrived on the continent: 28,000 were now at Stralsund, and the Crown Prince bad therefore a right to demand the subsidy. He would also ask, whether, if Sweden should make peace with France and not with Denmark, we should not be left subject to a war for the purpose of securing Norway to Sweden? The noble lord said, there were documents to prove that this country was not bound to the permanent annexation of Norway to Sweden: he hoped it was so, for then the objection of imitating French aggression would be removed. The treaty, however, was differently construed in Sweden; and the Crown Prince, in his address to his soldiers, said, that treaties whose object was the tranquillity of the north, guaranteed the union of Scandinavia. As to the question of subsidy, it was so much the fashion for all parties in the House to be careless about money matters, that he should merely say, it was an improvident contract, to risk so large a sum of money without an equivalent. His own opinion, both in the last and present wars, was decidedly against such treaties of money. This country was always eager and anxious to furnish its money as long as any other country was ready to take it! yet all our bargains of this sort were only so many memorials of money idly and foolishly expended. Let them look at Sardinia, Prussia, Austria, and even Russia; these countries had all been subsidized again and again: and what benefit, what real advantage had resulted to this country from its prodigal disbursements? With respect to the cession of the island of Guadaloupe, ministers seemed to speak of giving it up with a gaiety of heart as if they rejoiced in admitting Sweden to a participation with them of the commerce of the world. He was afraid, however, that making this cession during the war, would prove dangerous, as, being generally allowed to be contrary to the law of nations, it might, in the discussions for peace, give an opening to much dispute, and be productive of the greatest inconvenience in many other respects. Sweden, in the event of another war, might very likely be a neutral power, and would, in such case, have a great opportunity of favouring Buonaparte's views, by having possession of this island so very near to our own, and capable of distressing our trade, in so great degree as it would be in their power to do. He then alluded to that part of the treaty which related to the landing by Sweden of 35,000 men on the continent at Stralsund. The cession of Guadaloupe, of which he had just spoken, was to take place in August next, or else in three months after Sweden had landed that number of troops. These two events, as things had turned out, were likely to happen about the same time, arid it was important to consider what we were likely to obtain by way of equivalent for Guadaloupe; and judging from circumstances which had happened, and from those which might happen in consequence of the armistice, it would seem as if we were likely to cede Guadaloupe, without receiving any equivalent whatever. Unless, therefore, there was some other article on this subject, than what had been made known to the House, it appeared to him that the treaty was very vague indeed. As to the article of entrepôt, he could not see how we were to receive any considerable advantages from it. In the first place, we were to pay a duty ad valorem nearly equivalent to the privilege to be granted us; and if the continental system should be again renewed, which was by no means impossible, perhaps not improbable, Sweden might be, in such case, as she had been before, compelled to yield to it; and he knew not why we should suppose that Sweden would now be more able to make an effectual resistance against it than she was before. Denmark, as well as Sweden, had heretofore been forced into it, or else neither of them would have given up the advantage of their commerce, of which they had been deprived by the power of Buonaparté; and if the war should take a turn in his favour, or he should succeed in making peace to the exclusion of this country, he saw no security we had wherewith to flatter ourselves, that Sweden would act otherwise than she had formerly done. With respect to that part relative to the subsidy to Sweden, in so far as they had relieved Russia, by setting free a great part of her forces to act against the French, it might be that a few hundred thousands were well laid out; but how ministers could embarrass themselves with the chance of entailing on this country a war with Denmark, after a peace with all the other powers might be concluded, he was much surprised at. He apologised for having detained the House so long, but felt it his duty to offer the observations he had made: be did not wish to make any distinct motion; but hoped the noble lord would favour the House with some explanation upon the points he had alluded to.

said the hon. member who had just sat down, had now delivered his sentiments at great length on the subject of the Swedish treaty, the hon. member not having been present when that matter was fully discussed on a former night. As he (lord C.) had on that occasion entered very fully into the whole of the subject, he did not feel it necessary to follow the hon. member through the various parts of his speech, but would confine himself to a few of the prominent points of it. He admitted first, that ministers had acted on their own responsibility, for which he had heretofore thrown himself on the consideration of the House; and insisted that it was more for the public interests to make the remittances, in the way which had been done, rather than wait to come to parliament for the money which would have occasioned a delay, though parliament was sitting, that might have been productive of the most injurious consequences, and have drawn them into greater embarrassments, as at that moment they were not in circumstances to give the explanations, without which they could not have applied to parliament with any degree of propriety. The hon. member had gone somewhat diffusely into the treaty, but had in general approved of it. He seemed, however, to go on the theoretical principle, that in making a treaty, ministers ought to throw all the difficulties that were to be encountered on the other contracting parties. Such a conduct might do in the minor transactions of the world, but in the case of contracts between great powers it was not possible; nor would it, in the end, conduce to any one advantage or good effect. In this treaty, Sweden had never been considered by ministers, as the hon. member had supposed, to have made great sacrifices on the continent; on the contrary, there was no power so little in a situation to do so as Sweden: but in having freed Russia from great difficulty, by putting at her immediate disposal so large a force in the course of the last campaign, ministers did conceive that Sweden had done the most essential service to the general cause; and that they were therefore justified in granting the subsidy, and paying it in the manner they had done. He insisted also, that by their having landed their forces at Stralsund, they had greatly embarrassed Buonaparté, and kept him so much in check, that he was obliged to leave considerable forces to watch their motions, which would otherwise have been employed with terrible effect against the armies of the allies. Referring to the general observations upon the treaty which the hon. gentleman had made, he thought that he was not stating the proposition too broadly, when he said that if all the members of that House entertained the same opinions with the hon. gentleman, no such thing as a treaty of subsidy would ever, under any circumstances, be made; for the whole scope of the arguments of the hon. gentleman was, that all the burden of contingencies should be thrown upon the other parts for the purpose of relieving ourselves. The fact was, that Sweden bad no other interest in view by landing her troops on the continent, than the interest of the confederation, and the treaty never had been framed under any such impression as that Sweden waived any private interest for the purpose of employing her troops against the common enemy. He had no hesitation in saying, that the hon. gentleman misconceived the nature of the whole treaty. If the hon. member had read the treaty with the intention of understanding it, instead of finding fault with it, he would have found what he had just stated to be the fact. The hon. member had thought proper to put many constructional questions; but he (lord C.) could not feel himself called upon to declare what advice his Majesty's ministers would think it their duty to give upon circumstances which had not yet, arisen. He should, however, decline to answer the variety of questions put by the hon. member; but he had the satisfaction to be able to state to him and the House, for their mutual information, that the allies had every reason to be satisfied with the conduct of the expedition landed at Stralsund; that the number of men was even larger than had been stipulated for; and that with respect to the great personage at the head of the Swedish army, there was every reason to place the most perfect confidence in him, both as to the sincerity of his intentions and his abilities in leading on his forces against the common enemy. He did not feel himself bound to give any explanations, as to what was intended to be done. The hon. gentleman seemed to think it would have been wise to have in- serted some saving stipulation, in case of failure in any of the powers; but though this opinion was perfectly consonant to the economical principles of the hon. gentleman, nothing could have more effectually tended to separate, instead of cementing alliances. In order to relieve, however, the laudable anxiety of the hon. member, he was happy to be able to state in addition to what he had lately said, that in the view of the person at the head of the Swedish armies, the stipulations entered into between the allies for the direction of those forces had been perfectly satisfactory to him; and further, he was enabled to inform him, that the force already landed in Stralsund exceeded the number stipulated for, exclusive of the Pomeranian corps and some additional troops expected from Sweden. With respect to the cession of Guadaloupe, he must decline adding any thing to what he had recently stated, nor could he say that the ministers of the crown might think it their duty to advise under any given circumstances. On the whole, the treaty bad been concluded under the most important circumstances, and was calculated to advance the general interests of Europe, by entering into the views of a power which had already assisted in the salvation of Russia, and whose conduct had eminently contributed to those extraordinary and brilliant successes which had attended the last campaign against the arms of France. The treaty had been made on terms which held forth the greatest advantages to the allies, by inducing that power to join the common cause which could be of the utmost service to their cause, and which, by its act, would draw on it the severest vengeance of France; and he insisted, that in its consequences it was considered as likely to lead to the most brilliant effects.

The Resolution was then agreed to.

brought forward the Ordnance Estimates. He said the first estimate was less by 150,000l. than that of last year. The new estimates would amount to 350,000l. There would be a considerable and necessary augmentation of the artillery. The great differences would be found in the extraordinaries, and principally in the article of stores, in which there was a great diminution. For Hilsea the large sum of 90,000l. would be requisite. It was, indeed, a very considerable sum to ask for, but there was an absolute necessity for it. For the fortifications of Portsmouth, and the defence of that most important place, large sums had been formerly asked, which were rendered useless for want of a little additional expence, which had been refused by the House, when required by the duke of Richmond. The consequence was, the proprietors of the land took advantage, and on that space, which was then a common, had built a large town; so that now if any enemy were to make a landing, there would be no defending Portsmouth but by knocking down the whole town. It would be worth the while for the nation to purchase the whole, but it could not afford to do so at this moment when we were engaged to so great an extent in expences absolutely unavoidable. The circumstances under which the present grant was asked were these:—the land between the lines and the fort of Portsmouth was formerly common, and thus could not have been built on. This was now enclosed by act, and apportioned, and plans were in agitation for building on it. To prevent this it was proposed to purchase it for government, and a plan, which it was not at present necessary to put in execution, was under consideration for erecting a fort on the hilly ground on the land in question, which would command the lines, and render entrance into the place impracticable, except after a delay of a week or ten days. Portsmouth was impregnable by sea, but if an enemy should make a landing, and obtain possession of Hilsea, they would command the fortifications on the land side. It was not necessary to erect fortifications on it at this moment, but we ought to have it in our power to do so. It was a mistake to suppose that the whole of the money granted by the committee would be thrown away; for, on a survey, Mr. Wyatt had reported, that the land was worth the money and would produce 3,000l. per annum, so that, should it not be wanted, it might be disposed of by public sale. He then moved that 749,599l. be granted to his Majesty for Ordnance Estimates.

adverting to what the hon. gentleman had said about lands to be purchased at Portsmouth, observed, that the hon. gentleman was wrong in representing Portsmouth as a fortress of a superior order, as it was only meant to be such as to be inaccessible to a coup de main. All the fortifications which had been mentioned by the hon. gentleman were not in the least calculated for the defence of the dock yards, as they were at all times accessible from the sea. He hoped that particular accounts would be laid before parliament, and that the plans, &c. would not merely be confined to the Ordnance-office. He cautioned the hon. gentleman and the board to see the whole object and intention of any sum which was to be expended, and ascertain what the expenditure would lead to, and where it would end, before they proposed it to parliament. In the case of Jersey they began with a few thousands: in 1806 they voted 30,000l. then 15,000l. 20,000l. 10,000l. 37,000l. 40,000l. and in this year 60,000l. So that the whole expence was 244,000l. On the whole he approved of the estimate, which he thought was as reasonable as possible; and he thought that the hon. gentleman might have taken credit to himself, and to the board, for the smallness of the unprovided estimates, as the amount of them was less than he ever remembered it to be on any former occasion. Praise was due to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ward), on the small amount of the 'Unprovided,' and for the establishment of sappers, and the augmentation of the horse artillery; he did not, however, see any necessity for the augmentation of the artillery drivers corps.

objected to the sum for the purchase of lands at Portsmouth; he was not satisfied with the reasons which had been assigned for that purchase, and therefore his vote would be against it. He also objected to the sums mentioned in the estimate for the purchase of lands at Woolwich, Waltham Abbey, and the manufactory of small arms; 147 acres had been purchased at an expence of 11,000l.—10,000l. had been expended in. like manner at Waltham Abbey, and 5,000l. at the manufactories of small arms—50,000l. had been expended in establishing powder magazines on the Medway, which if at all necessary must have been necessary before. The expence of towers on the coast was 18,276l.—contingencies of artillery abroad 80,000l.—recruiting 70,000/. all which required explanation. He wished to know why it was necessary to have a new charge of 50,000l. for nine powder magazines on the Medway? He also wished to know whether the charge of 18,000l. for towers and batteries on the coast was to be continued, or when it was likely to end? The sum of 80,000l. for artillery on foreign service, he thought more than sufficient. The charge of recruiting was estimated at 70,000l. which was an increase of 40,000l. above the sum in the estimate of last year; he wished to know the cause of the enormous increase on this item.

readily gave every tribute of praise to the magnificent and useful way in which the works at Woolwich were carrying on. The new wharf in particular was deserving of the highest approbation. As very large sums had been expended in the construction of the works at Dover, he was desirous of being informed, whether it was intended to extend them on the same scale. Looking at the Ordnance Estimates as a whole, he felt it hisduty to admit, that they were less objectionable than any which had been for a long time submitted to the House. Yet while he admitted that the present estimates were much less objectionable than those of almost any former year, he thought that there were some items which required explanation. Among these he particularly pointed out the proposed erection of permanent and expensive works in Trinidad and other of the conquered islands. He adverted also, however commendable they were, to the enormous expence of the works at Woolwich, and expressed his hope that they would now be terminated; and that the board had no other similar undertaking in contemplation.

alluding to the works for the defence of Portsmouth, observed, that with the increase of the works, the number of houses on them also increased. These houses could be of no use whatever, for as they were erected on the glacis, they would, if even destroyed, prove very dangerous, and embarrass, instead of contributing to the defence of the place.

wished to know why, when the Bill to inclose the Isle of Portsea was brought in last session, a more vigilant attention was not paid to the public interest, and a clause introduced to prevent those by whom the land was to be inclosed from erecting such buildings as might be detrimental to the defence of the place?

contended, that the proposed vote was calculated to do either not enough or too much. If there were many houses erected injurious to the defence of Portsmouth, and the destruction of those houses was necessary, they ought to be destroyed. Unless the works were complete, they would be useless; but he did not see the practicability of making them so. The lines extended for many miles, and an immense army would be necessary for their defence. It was utterly incapable of sustaining a regular siege. With respect to the other items of the estimates they met with his entire approbation, with the exception of that which related to the artillery-drivers, and which he concurred with an hon. gentleman in thinking might be advantageously reduced.

acknowledged the candour with which he had been treated on the present occasion, and declared, that it was a pleasure to be so opposed. The hon. gentlemen who gave it as their opinion, that no work should be undertaken until the board were apprised, not merely of the expence of the current year, but of the whole expence, only echoed the sentiments of the present master-general of the ordnance, who, since his entrance into office, had uniformly instructed the engineers not to forward him the estimate of the minutest work which it was proposed to undertake, without stating the whole expence with which it was likely to be attended. With respect to Jersey he had the satisfaction to say, that he believed the present vote would complete the works that had for some years been carrying on in that island. As to the artillery drivers, any reduction in that item would, he was persuaded, be injurious to the public service. So far was lord Wellington from wishing that corps to be reduced, that he had actually applied for an additional number, stating that he required three times the amount of those with his army. Adverting to the proposed vote for the purchase of the land within the lines at Portsmouth, he observed that an hon. gentleman had recommended not to buy the ground at present but to wait till an exigency should occur, and then to destroy any building that might be necessary, and make compensation to the owners. But was the hon. gentleman aware that in that case the sum required would be at least twenty times the amount now necessary? The fortifications at Woolwich were undertaken at the period when the alarm of invasion was general, and sir John Shaw's ground contracted for in the year 1803. The lease having now expired, the purchase money had become due. Waltham Abbey had been converted into a powder mill, and the buildings at Enfield and Lewisham were for the manufacture and what was called the setting up of small arms. As to the magazine at Purfleet, he had not expected to hear that censured, as it had been highly approved by an hon. member not now in his place (Mr. Whitbread), who was in the habit of exercising pretty considerable vigilance on these subjects. It was now intended to suppress the naval magazines, of which there were nine, and which cost the country three thousand pounds per annum severally, and to erect four or five on shore at different points—one at Plymouth, one at Portsmouth, and two at Sheerness. Instead of Purfleet, it was now in contemplation to establish the principal magazine on a moor in the vicinity of Uxbridge. An hon. member (Mr. J. Smith) had inquired respecting the charge of a fort in the island of Trinidad, which had been strongly recommended by general Hislop, in consequence of the fire some years since at Porto Spain. The wharf at Woolwich, the beauty of which was universally admired, had saved a considerable annual expence in superseding the necessity of employing lighter-men, and the item of 12,000l. was on account of some new and most useful machinery. He alluded particularly to the vertical saw, which he understood had already saved in the expense of labour not less than 400l. per cent. With respect to what had been said upon the purchase of the ground at Hilsea, he was a good deal surprised to hear an hon. gentleman (Mr. Baring) who sat on the Whig side of the House, object to granting compensation for freehold property. The ground was necessary for the purpose of building a fort to intercept the progress of an enemy from the side of Portsea.

thought a much greater expenditure necessary to place Portsmouth in an adequate state of defence. The dock-yard might be easily destroyed from the Gosport side of the harbour.

The different Resolutions were then put and carried.

of the Exchequer, after passing a very high encomium on the services of the army under the command of lord Wellington, moved, that the sum of 663,400l. be granted for the unprovided portion of the extraordinary expences of the army for the present year. This head of expenditure had in the preceding year exceeded all former estimates, having amounted to no less a sum than five millions. At the suggestion of that distinguished person who was at the head of our armies in the peninsula, a commissioner had been sent out to examine and audit the accounts on the spot. The result was, that the estimate for the present year was 4,663,400l. Four millions had been already voted, and he now therefore moved for the remaining 663,400l.

took the opportunity to animadvert upon the farther prosecution of the war in the peninsula, which tended but to plunge this country in augmented expenditure and difficulties. He begged leave to ask the noble lord opposite, what were the expectations of success which he entertained? What was the prospect of the success which presented itself? And was the war to be protracted, by exhausting the heart and blood of Great Britain, under the delusive hope that the Spaniards might look for ultimate success, because they had been occupied for 300 years in effecting the expulsion of the Moors? The Chancellor of the Exchequer had observed truly, that the principal item was the peninsular war. He must enter his. protest against the prosecution of a war which would wrench the last shilling from the pockets of the poor, and plunge every family in the country into distress. The success of this war was, to say the least, problematical, the ruin and loss certain and dreadful. He adverted to, and reprobated in strong terms, the contract made by government with major Wingfield, for raising men for the service of the West Indies on the coast of Africa, and with count Delehaye for raising Dutch recruits, which he thought incomprehensible. It was well known, that the officer in question had entered into engagements with the inhabitants along the coast for the purpose of being supplied with men, and thus the slave trade was to be iniquitously revived and perpetuated. Another objectionable point which struck him was the liberty given to the court of Portugal to carry on that abominable and disgraceful traffic. It was not to be endured that Portugal should be suffered to exercise that horrible dealing, directly contrary to our own principles and practice, and at the very moment when we were defending her best interests and existence with our treasure and our blood. Portugal should be plainly told, that we would not allow her to do so, for she thus counteracted the noblest and most benevolent experiment the country ever made in vindication of suffering humanity, and the best claims and rights of our fellow-creatures. He ought not to forget that one grant was to a Mr. F. Cator, for the invention of a new military cap. He should be glad to know who it was that had advised the Prince Regent to adopt this most absurd and contemptible dress. It was so absurd that when a regiment entered a town, a horse soldier was often obliged to parade the streets to reconcile people to the sight of it. Our war expences in the last year alone had increased 38 millions. He would advise gentlemen to consider the consequences of this ruinous system of unbounded expence—a system which must end in destroying the people, unless the people destroy it.

said, the object of major Wingfield's mission was to enlist recruits with the ulterior view of saving that loathsome and deplorable waste of European life in our West India regiments. It was not fair to say, however, that the state of these black soldiers was not more eligible than that of the slaves employed in the colonies; they had all the allowances of British soldiers, and might one day return with the rudiments of civilization to their native land. The scheme, when first suggested to government, had been referred to the opinion of the gentlemen composing the committee of the African Institution, and approved by them on condition of making Sierra Leone the general depot. This provision had answered its end, and major Wingfield having exceeded the line marked out for him, had been sent home by governor Maxwell to explain the nature of his conduct. He thought it likewise unjust to accuse government of negligence on the subject of the abolition, particularly after the zealous and cordial exertions which had succeeded in inducing Sweden to relinquish the trade.

said, that there was a great difficulty in compensation, till hardships were proved in a court of justice. Government had been attentive to ascertain to what parts of the African coast Portugal had a right to trade for slaves. He assured the hon. gentleman that government had made various representatations on this subject to the Portuguese court. It was impossible, however, to sacrifice the cause of Europe at the present moment, or act indeed otherwise than was consistent with the treaty between the two countries. Application had been made as urgently as was possible for the cession of these points, which created local difficulties in deciding as to the due observance of the treaty. It had been found, however, impossible to come to a final arrangement, until certain complaints from Bahia and other parts of the coast, with respect to illegal captures, had undergone further adjudication in this country, and the question of the propriety of affording restitution had been brought to an issue.

noticed the observations formerly made on the dresses of the army, and observed, that he, who, it was said, was not in the habit of doing foolish things, had done the very thing complained of,—Buonaparté's dragoons wore similar helmets, and the chief complaint he had heard was that our equipment was too much like that of Buonaparté's, and might cause mistakes. These, however, were unlikely, from the different colour of the uniform; one being blue, the other red. An hon. gentleman had said, that a dragoon was marched through a town previous to the arrival of his regiment, to accustom the people to his new appearance. Fashion, certainly, was merely matter of opinion: but if he were sent into a town with a broad cocked hat on for the first time, it would, at least, occasion as much ridicule as the helmet. The cocked hat was not sabre proof, whereas the helmet: was so: therefore the men were less exposed in a conflict. He believed the soldiers approved the alteration, and was confident whether in hats or helmets that they would do their duty.

lamented the thinness of the House on such an occasion. He did not mean to disparage so distinguished an officer as sir Sidney Smith, but there was a claim on his account charged last year on the civil list of above 7,375l. which was incurred about the same time as the present charge. This ought to be explained. The charge of 9,362l. for cast iron water works at the Cape also required explanation, as well as the additional charge of 2,000/. which he did not well comprehend. The article respecting Dutch soldiers seemed unaccountable. The sum for general Sontag and another general amounted to about 38,000l. Another item he could not understand related to St. Colomba, and the corps of general de Meuron, on which there was a charge of 2,000l. That general had since retired from his regiment, and had been succeeded by an English officer. He was desirous of having this matter made clear. The expence for New South Wales troops was 45,000l. Why might not this article be brought into the calculation for the regular army, and placed in the account of the general military payments. A charge of 3,500l. for a depot of foreign officers at Lymington also required explanation, as to its nature and objects, for which, perhaps, sufficient reasons might be given. Having noticed those particular items, he could not refrain from observing on a general view of the estimates connected with the army, how little had been accomplished by so immense an increase of expenditure! Our military expenditure had increased to 24,000,000l. annually during this war, and it was indispensably necessary to practise economy: but ministers had shewn no such disposition. Public expence for bridges, roads, emigrants, &c. proceeded as if we were at peace. It was unpardonable to call for these grants without time for reflection. Seeing how little reason there was for expecting peace within any very short period, he could not but observe, that the finances of the country must ultimately be thrown into a dreadful and dangerous state of convulsion, except our expences were very considerably lessened. They had been told, that the national debt had only increased fifty-four millions; but such a statement was a deception, for he was ready to show, calculating the loan, and what was left unfunded, that it had increased nearly one hundred millions. He would maintain that it was a fallacy to hold out to the public that the debt had only increased fifty-four millions, since in that statement was taken off the unfunded debt.

observed, that though the hon. gentleman who spoke last had noticed the increase in the expenditure of the country, he had pointed out very few items that could require even explanation. With respect to the item for South Wales, the charge was for stores, provisions, &c. for the settlement, and was one which had always been placed amongst the extraordinaries, and distinctly stated. It was defrayed by bills upon the Treasury, and the amount was annually voted. In 1811 it was 30,000l. The question on the Dutch troops was submitted in 1803 to the law officers, and the sum of 30,000l. was awarded on the claims of count Baben- hausen by Mr. Reeves. A subsequent award, the first not being approved of, was made by Mr. Richardson, to nearly the same amount, and the sum now paid was regulated thereby.

thought it extraordinary that every thing relative to New South Wales was not included in the general expences of the colony, and expressed a wish that all the expences for the colony might, henceforth be brought into one estimate. He inquired, whether there existed any intention on the part of the ministers to take any notice of the Report that had been. laid on the table of the House, in the course of the last session of parliament, respecting the improvement of the government of South Wales.

said, government waited for a farther report from the governor of New South Wales. The expence of the cast iron water works was only an advance till the colony could provide for it. The whole expence was 18,000l., of which 7,000l. were already paid. As to the depot at Lymington, he should observe, that there had been many deserters from the enemy's armies in the peninsula. On their arrival here, they had received their respective allowances, as officers and privates, till they could be sent to the independent companies. The object was not to discourage those who might wish to follow their example.

thought, that considering the style of conscription which had of late years taken place in Europe, he doubted much whether the military exertions of this country would be sufficient to meet such a powerful engine in the hands of the enemy. He thought the new helmet for our cavalry nothing the better for being like those of Buonaparté.

said it was his firm opinion, that without a radical change in our military system, millions might be thrown away without producing any benefit. A general change of military system had taken place in Europe during the last 20 years. Almost all the other powers had introduced conscription instead of enlistment. Was it possible that our system could proceed successfully against this change? We might as well say that the militia could contend against a regular army? A separate peace, leaving us out of it, was not improbable. In that event, how were we to support a force at home, and one in the peninsula, on the present plan? Regulations had been made, not to facilitate promotion in the army, but to make it almost impossible to obtain it at an active period of life. If this were persisted in, it would be impossible to maintain a sufficient army. No facilities were given for military education to officers desirous of obtaining it. He could not understand why, at the end of a campaign, there was so great a reduction by illness in our armies: whether it was from any inactivity in quarters, or from what other cause, he could not tell. As to the medical department of the army, he would recommend it to the humanity of the government to adopt better plans than had hitherto been resorted to for the preservation of the health of our troops in the peninsula during seasons of inactivity.

protested earnestly against any principles which went to the introduction of a conscription in this free country, the consequences of which would be most dangerous to our constitution. After we had so often risen superior to the greatest dangers, he had no fear of the beneficial effects of the system of which we had had such long experience. He was not for opposing violence to violence, and wrong to wrong. The military expence was necessarily large, and if government did all they could to keep it down, it was, perhaps, as much as could be expected. Parliament and individuals ought, however, to help government in this respect. The disadvantages attending the course of exchange had been an unfortunate source of expenditure. As for promotion, if it were allowed too rapidly, it would, through the means of patronage, be more dangerous to the constitution than any evils which at present existed, by its slow degrees. He thought the late regulations a great improvement in the army. He therefore objected to any bolder mode, to which favour, as well as merit, would prevail. As to the expenditure with which this war was carried on, it was of so alarming and extensive a scale, that it was impossible for this country to support it much longer, as every one must be convinced that knew any thing about the state of our finances. If there were not a prospect of an early peace, the scale of our expenditure must be reduced; for the system of existing three years without further taxes was miserable, disastrous, and delusive in the extreme. But even were we to continue this dreadful struggle, Heaven forbid that we should ever see the day that a conscription should be adopted or followed in this country. Were we to despair of the safety of the country under a constitution which had enabled us to come safe through so many perils, unless we should adopt the system of France, a system devised by tyranny, for its safety, and which carried misery in the bosom of every family. This would be truly

"Propter vitam vivendi perdere causam."

He hoped, therefore, the hon. gentleman would have but few followers.

in explanation, denied that he proposed to recommend the introduction of conscription into this country, but hoped he might say, Greece had in ancient days owed her safety to such a measure, and Sweden was at this day raised to importance by it. He had only said the war could not be carried on with effect, without having recourse to some measure for filling up the ranks in the army. This he contended was necessary to bring the war to a glorious conclusion, and without this the country could neither carry on hostilities with success, nor make peace with security.

heard the favourable mention of conscription with regret and astonishment. By means of voluntary enlistment more men turned out into the army in this country than were raised by means of the conscription in France, considering the difference of population. With respect to the medical department of our army, few people who had not been on service were judges. Disease, he believed, was not more frequent in our army than in any other exposed to the same climate. At any rate he was sure that no medical department in any service was better than ours.

disapproved of the mention made of conscriptions. If our armies were not so numerous as those of other nations, they had qualities which rendered them more valuable. Those raised by voluntary enlistment were more effective than those raised by conscriptions; and he should think a general would feel much more confidence in an army raised, as our armies were raised, than he could possibly have while leading to battle a band of slaves, torn from their homes by force. He thought the present period was not that at which it could justly be said that our troops were not well officered, after they had been fighting so long, and with such great success, under lord Wellington in the peninsula. With respect to the sickness mentioned, he had to say that he had not often read of armies, which, at the close of an active campaign, were not subjected to the visitations of sickness. He, however, was not aware that our troops had suffered more than those of other nations.

stated, that the House had not the items of the charges, which precluded the possibility of particularly remarking upon them; for all that was before the House was, that Mr. Commissary drew for such and such sums of money, on such accounts. The expence in the peninsula had been greatly increased by the exchange, but it had also been incurred by the discount on great bills, which arose from the bad credit in which those bills were. These bills drawn by the commissariat in Portugal had fallen to a discount of from 20 to 30 per cent. in consequence of the difficulty of obtaining payment for them in this country. At the same time be understood, that some of them were paid from partial considerations. This practice he deprecated as not only unjust but injudicious, as inconsistent with economy, and as affecting the credit of the government. He understood that a considerable amount of debt had been contracted in the peninsula, in consequence partly of these transactions; but debt must be the consequence of such a system, for bad economy must lead to debt and bad credit. He wished to know the amount of the unfunded debt in the peninsula.

stated, that the subject alluded to by the hon. gentleman, had occupied a very considerable portion of the attention of the Treasury. Circumstances like those he had mentioned (respecting the discount) had occurred, and had caused a considerable debt. The debt fluctuated very much; in the year 1812, it had amounted to four millions of dollars. He had heard accusations of partiality, but always found them to be unfounded.

wished to know, for what period the army in the peninsula was in arrear, as to its pay.

said three or four months.

asked, whether the last payment was not on the 24th of December.

said, it had been on the 24th of March.

asked for an explanation as to the corn purchased in the Brazils.

said, the corn purchased in the Brazils was purchased at 36s. per quarter only, and he was happy to say that the army in the peninsula had provision for 100,000 men for twelve weeks.

The Resolution was then passed.

then moved, that a sum not exceeding 100,000l. should be given in aid of queen Anne's bounty.

objected, on the ground that the church collectively had sufficient property if it were properly distributed. There was no country in Europe, or the civilized world, in which the church enjoyed so large a portion of the produce and property of the people as it possessed in England. The amount indeed of the possession was unquestionable, and the only question was, whether this amount was equitably distributed. For his own part, he could not help thinking that the distribution was inadequate, or this proposition could not be necessary. In fact, it was evident that while the church derived so much from the industry of the public—while its profit interfered most injuriously with the agriculture of the country, the clergy were not adequately provided for. Instead of making the higher livings provide for the lower, which was the principle of the Stipendiary Curates Bill, it was proposed by this motion to burthen the public purse, leaving the higher livings untouched. This was now the fourth year in which this grant had been made, and he understood it was to be followed up with the devout intention of raising the amount to one million, to be invested in the funds. Thus it seemed that the church, in addition to all its property in land, was also to become a stockholder.

professed great respect for the church establishment, but had no objection whatever to a more equal distribution of church property.

conceived the clergy to be in possession of a tythe, not only of the produce but of the rent of the country, but still he would not object to an ample provision for them, always conceiving that "the labourer is worthy of his hire."

wished that means should be taken to enforce the residence of such clergymen as partook of this grant.

said, that a condition of residence always accompanied any grant by the governors of queen Anne's bounty.

hoped that no part of the money would be laid out in the purchase of lands, as he was peculiarly adverse to the grant of any more of our land in mortmain.

recommended rather that such money should be applied in the purchase of the land tax.

After some observations, the Committee divided. The numbers were: For the motion, 94. Against it, 20. The several Resolutions were then agreed to.