presented the following Message from the Prince Regent:

"GEORGE, P. R.

"The Prince Regent, in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty, considering that it may be of very great importance to provide for such emergencies as may arise, and relying on the experienced zeal and affection of the House of Commons, trusts that this House will enable him to take such measures as may be necessary to disappoint or defeat any enterprizes, or designs of his enemies, and as the exigency of affairs may require."

Ordered to be taken into consideration to-morrow.

presented a Petition, signed by certain inhabitants of London and Westminster, against the Licensed Victuallers' Bill.

observed, that this Petition appeared one of the most culpable attempts to impose on the House he ever remembered to have seen. Many of the names attached to it were spelt improperly. The Christian name "William," was invariably spelt with an h. Now, that one of the persons signing might sign his name thus, was not improbable, but that so many persons as there were of that Christian name concerned in this Petition, should spell their names so, was not credible. This proved, in his mind, that many of them had been written by the same hand. The allegations of the Petition, however, were so manifestly unsupported, that having offered these remarks, he had no objection to its being laid on the table.

said, many of the names in the petitions presented on the subject of the claims of the Catholics had been written in the same hand, yet the petitions were not objected to on this account. The Petition bad been put into his hands, and as the language of it had not appeared to him improper, he had thought it his duty to bring it before the House. If it was so eminently absurd as the right hon. gentleman seemed to think, in his opinion, it was admirably suited to the Bill to which it was intended to apply.

The Petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Rose brought up the Report of the said Bill, and moved that it should be read. Mr. Croker opposed the motion, and moved that the Report should be read this day three months. A division then took place, when there appeared—in support of the Bill 41; for the Amendment 39; majority in favour of the Bill 2.—The Report, was then read and agreed to, and on the motion that the Bill should be read a third time to-morrow, the House divided again, when there appeared in favour of the motion 46; against it 41; majority 5. The third reading of the Bill was fixed for to-morrow.

would say but a few words in this stage of the business, but he could not help observing, that they were going to try an experiment which was not likely to produce any material advantage to the private trader, and the consequence of which might be complete ruin to the East India Company. He also objected particularly to the clause for conveying missionaries to India, and thought they had sufficient facilities before.

spoke at length against the Bill, but in so low a tone of voice that it was impossible to hear him. He said, that considering all the circumstances under which the measure was attempted of throwing open the trade, and allowing missionaries to be sent to India, he was convinced it was pregnant with mischief to the Indian empire.

approved of the Bill, as far as it went to place the commercial concerns of the East India Company under the superintendance of the Board of controul. So many improvements had already taken place in the political department of India, owing to the influence of that Board, that the same beneficial effects might be expected from the same source, in the commercial department. He was confident that the opening of the East India trade to the out-ports, would prove highly beneficial to the country; but he objected to the length of time for which the new charter was intended to be granted. He objected also to the exclusive monopoly of the China trade being granted to the Company; he thought that branch of commerce absolutely necessary to enable our private merchants to avail themselves of all the resources which the countries of the East offered to their enterprising spirit. He should, in consequence, move an amendment in the committee on that clause. He had also a strong objection to the thirteenth clause; and he saw no necessity, and on the other hand much danger, in providing by law for the spreading of Christianity in India. Sufficient facilities had been given before for that purpose, and had the Resolution remained a dead letter on the Journals of the House, he might not perhaps have objected to it; but the public sanction of the law, which it was proposed that Resolution should receive, might excite a rebellion in India, which would endanger the lives of all Europeans there, and shake that empire to its very basis. An hon. gentleman had said that Petitions for that object had been received from all parts of the country, but he should also have stated that they uniformly came from the same description of people, who even went further than the Resolution of the House, for it seemed that nothing less than the total conversion of the Hindoos could satisfy their zeal. He thought that if the natives of India were once to suspect that government entertained such intentions, the effects would be disastrous in the extreme. After some few general observations, the hon. gentleman concluded by declaring that, in the committee, he should propose to limit the duration of the Company's charter to ten years, and the China monopoly to seven years; a time he thought sufficient to try the merit of the experiment. He should also move for omitting the clause relating to missionaries in India.

was of opinion that the arguments of interested monopolists on the one hand, and of sanguine speculators on the other, ought not to be put in competition with the happiness of the natives of India. They were told by the East India Com- pany, Let us retain our monopoly, and every thing will go on well; but if you admit into India a set of brutal traders, who will pay no respect to the prejudices of the people they go among, who will ridicule their religious ceremonies, shoot their consecrated monkies, and cut off the old women's ears and noses, ruin must ensue. The advocates for the out-ports said, Throw open the ports of Bristol, Liverpool, and Hull, and all will prosper, as if the landing of a merchant in one of those places was sufficient to secure the happiness of India. He was of opinion that the whole system of our political arrangements ought to be completely altered. Before the new charter was sent to the Company to accept or reject, ministers ought to have prepared themselves to state the alternative. He could not, however, believe there was such a want of talent at the present day that an alternative could not be had. He was not disposed to assent to the Bill, as he looked upon it to be a melange of restrictions and concessions.

sen. spoke to the following effect:

He said he felt himself called upon at this stage of the Bill, to offer some observations on the general scope and tenor of it, and preliminary to this, to take the opportunity which the forms of the House now allowed him, of vindicating the conduct of the Court of Directors, and the past system of the Company, from some imputations cast upon them in the course of the discussions on the important subject under consideration.

An hon. member (Mr. Whitbread) whom he was sorry not now to see in his place, had on a former night denied to the Company any share of the merit which was at length very generally acknowledged to belong to the British administration of India; and he even went so far as to question whether the natives were the better for the Company's government, and had not been happier under their own. After animadverting on different periods of the Company's management, he had said that from the appointment of the Board of Controul in 1784 the Company had not conducted the Indian government—that they had been cashiered by that act, that the directors had been the puppets and tools of the King's ministers, that they had nothing to do but to register the edicts of the Board of Controul, that lord Cornwallis had collected the ideas of his im- provements from the papers of Mr. Francis, that the directors had reprobated the conduct of lord Wellesley, and were then obliged to sign a dispatch to him directly contrary to the one they had proposed, that changed into complete approbation.

All these statements were grossly erroneous. The constitution, indeed, of the Indian government, as etablished by the Act of 1784, was of a mixed nature. The Board of Commissioners appointed under that Act had undoubtedly the power of superintending and controuling the Company's administration, but the management was left with the Company. With them originated all orders and instructions to the Indian government, (saving what related to foreign politics, or war, peace, and negociation) and those orders and instructions regulated the administration of the British empire in the East. True, they were subjected to the revision of the Board of Controul, and they were occasionally altered in particular parts by that Board, but the great mass of dispatches which went to India on all the subjects of civil administration, in the departments of revenue, judicial administration, commerce, general government, and the government of the Company's army, were prepared in the India House, and probably not once in many of their dispatches was there any material alteration. He did not mean to say that the Board of Controul was not an useful institution, and that its superintendance might not be and had not been beneficial to the interests of British India. When its functions and powers were exercised according to the true spirit of its constitution, it no doubt served these purposes. But it had neither by law nor in practice that despotic authority which the hon. gentleman ascribed to it. The present system of Indian administration, composed of the Board of Controul, the Company represented by their executive body, and the government in India, was a system of mutual checks. The Board had a direct controul over the Company, and the Company was able, by the rights it still possessed, to resist the improper exercise of the powers of the Board. In his mind, Mr. Grant said, this was a very valuable part of the present system. Each department had its merit, but it was doing entire injustice to the Company to deny them any share where indeed their merit had been so considerable.

With respect to the affair of the dispatch proposed by the Company to be sent to lord Wellesley, the hon. gentleman was also wholly mistaken, and that very affair was a proof in express contradiction to his representation of the complete subserviency of the directors to the Board of Controul. Mr. Grant said he wished to wave any advertence to the system of policy then in dispute, but it was true that the Court of Directors had, in opposition to the wishes of the Board of Controul, brought forward the dispatch in question in order to convey their strong disapprobation of that system; and the Board had executed its power in refusing to sanction the dispatch. It is not, however, true, that the directors signed one of a directly contrary tenor, expressing approbation; for the dispatch substituted by the Board also censured the conduct of the governor general, though it did not go the length of the other, and the matter of the letter which the Court of Directors signed, was not contrary to their sentiments, though it did not express them fully.

In speaking of the effects of the Company's administration upon the happiness of the people of India, that administration ought to be distinguished into external and internal. Into the former, or the conduct of the Company's governments towards the native powers of India, he should not now enter. Its character was of a mixed nature, and most of the exceptionable transactions it exhibited, flowed from the servants of the Company, not from themselves. The present question was concerning the effects of the Company's internal administration. Here it was not his intention to undertake the defence of the Company or their servants, through all the series of their transactions; he meant not to do for them what could not be done for any government, but to speak of the general tendency and operation of their domestic government. It is true that in the tumult and disorder of the first revolutions which placed political power in the hands of the Company's servants, the people suffered much through the ignorance of the English and the misconduct of the natives, whom they necessarily trusted, but the genius of the British character soon began to discover and struggle against the errors and imperfections of that early period, and from the year 1709 to the present time, the principle of consulting the welfare of the people living under the Company's government has been recognized by them and their servants; it has gradually acquired more strength and au- thority, and for many years has been the governing principle of their administration. It is a mistake to ascribe all the good that has been done in India to the Act of 1784. Long before the passing of that Act the first ideas of the reforms afterwards adopted in the land tenures of India, and in the administration of justice there, had been developed in the discussions between the members of the Bengal government more rudimentally in the writings of Mr. Hastings and Mr. Barwell, with further advances in those of Mr. Francis. To the latter gentleman he did not wish to deny his praise, nor to the great statesman (Mr. Burke) who had distinguished himself by his knowledge of Indian affairs, and his discernment of the Indian character, although he could not, as had been done, ascribe to him merit which belonged to others. Those discussions in India certainly enlightened the administration at home. They may have contributed to the introduction of the Act of 1784, and to the formation of those instructions which lord Cornwallis carried out in 1786, and which formed the basis of his future measures, particularly the establishment of permanent landed property at an unalterable rent. But to India we are to look for the first traces of amelioration. The servants there first pointed out errors, and first suggested corrections.

It is now near thirty years since that Act was passed, and in all the time that has since elapsed, the internal improvement of our Indian territories has been progressive. Under whose management and direction has this improvement proceeded? It is to be acknowledged that the first president of the Board of Commissioners was a man eminent for the vigour of his mind, and the justness of his views of Indian policy; and the selection of lord Cornwallis to be the first governor general under the new system, was a most happy circumstance. In his character were united a rare assemblage of qualities peculiarly fitting him for the great task assigned to him. To him India and the mother country, the Board of Commissioners and the Company were all greatly indebted. But his character belonged no more to that Board than to the Company. Both were much guided by his opinions. Through all the periods in which these two distinguished men acted, the Company had a large share in the management and direction of the Indian system; and since their time the Company have still continued to per- form the important part assigned to them in the system, whilst the practical administration in India has essentially depended on the body of the servants, formed under them, and exceeded in talents, labours, and public spirit by no functionaries in the world.

To form a just estimate of the Company's Indian administration, it ought to be compared with that which preceded it under the Mahomedans. In the time of the nabobs who had assumed independence, and of those who succeeded them under the auspices of the English power, the people were exposed to insecurity, injustice, oppression, and misery. Despotism in gradation from the highest rank to the lowest was the principle of government. Now the people have a constitution formed by a code of Indo-British regulations, sanctioned and confirmed by the British legislature; they have security of person and property, equal laws which give them protection even from the unjust exercise of the power of government. The consequences are such as these advantages will always produce, a greater degree of tranquillity and enjoyment, and a principle of increasing prosperity in the mass of the people. Instead of objecting that something yet remains to be done in the improvement of the internal administration, the wonder is that so much has been effected.

On the embarrassed state of the Company's finances, of which so much had been said in the course of the present discussion, Mr. Grant remarked that it was to be ascribed to the very long war which had prevailed in Europe, and to Indian wars which the Company had not occasioned nor approved. These had produced in Europe a loss of eight millions sterling in the freight alone of the Company's shipping; and in India, through the operation of those wars and the expeditions against the European enemies of this country, the territorial debt had increased 20 millions. The transactions that had led to this vast increase of debt, which undoubtedly had long pressed the Company down, and must still continue to be felt, had been sanctioned by parliament. It was unjust to accuse the Company or their system as the cause of this accumulation, or of the inconveniences produced by it. There is no reason to suppose that if the country had been in the hands of government, the same effect would not have followed perhaps in a greater degree, for the Company had at length taken strong measures to check the progress of those wars in India.

It was fox the maintenance and safety of the Indian system at present established, and productive of such beneficial effects in the Eastern possessions, that the Company were now chiefly solicitous, and it was never to be forgotten that they contended for commercial privileges mainly on political grounds. He had opposed the innovating theories of those gentlemen who were for destroying the existing Indian system, a system which had hitherto produced such numerous advantages to the country, because he apprehended that in the pursuit of commercial benefits which certainly never would be realized, those solid advantages already possessed would be endangered. But after all the discussions which had already taken place, and the stages the Bill had passed through, he would not go again into these topics. The sentiments he had delivered upon them he maintained, not from such contracted views as might perhaps be imputed to him on account of the connection in which he stood with the Company, but in consistency with his duty as a member of that House and a citizen of the empire.

In regard to the proposed charter as the Bill now stood, he must acknowledge that he still deemed the terms of it disadvantageous to the Company, but he thought it also fair to confess that the apprehensions he had at first felt from the Resolutions originally brought forward, were considerably abated; the dangers did not now seem so formidable as they then appeared. The vast mass of convincing evidence which had been adduced before parliament, in proof of the impracticability of extending in any material degree the vent of British manufactures in India, had sobered the public opinion, and many of those persons, who in the early agitation of the question of a free trade, were most sanguine in their expectations, were now convinced that India afforded no new world for commercial enterprize. Hence it was not likely there would be that confluence of ships and adventurers to the Eastern seas, with the consequent smuggling of tea, which were at first feared, and this allayed the apprehension of a diminution in the profits of the China trade. With regard also to the home finances of the Company, he was relieved from the apprehensions the Directors had entertained on that score, in finding from, communications which had passed be- tween government and them, that measures would be adopted by his Majesty's ministers to provide for the payment of the transferred territorial debt, and he trusted also that the realization of the dividend to the proprietors would be rendered more secure. These were material circumstances, but still the Bill, though thus softened in some of its features, certainly contained very exceptionable and alarming provisions. By the regulations which it proposed, the old established practice of the public periodical sales of the Company at home would be broken down, and the consequences of so great a change might prove extremely prejudicial to the Company's Indian trade. Hitherto the sale of Indian commodities, whether on the account of the Company or individuals, had by law been confined to the port of London and to public auction. By the proposed change, those commodities would be vended privately in the out-ports, and might be so in the metropolis; and their private sales might always forestall those of the Company which were to be fixed by public advertisement, and thus deteriorate the prices of the Company's goods, and mar their mercantile operations. While also he was ready to confess that the wild speculations of individuals might be restricted by some of the checks introduced into the Bill, still it seemed to contemplate a system of licensing ships by a new power vested in the Board of Controul, which power, if largely exercised, might introduce a number of Europeans into India, and the idea of a divided authority, or of two distinct powers there, an idea hitherto unknown and likely to destroy that unity of administrative power which had hitherto subsisted in India—a change which would manifestly tend to disturb the government there, and to injure the public interests. To this part of the Bill, therefore, he was strongly adverse, and there were other parts of it also which he deemed objectionable, but into these he would not now enter.

Under all these circumstances, the East India Company were reduced to the unpleasant dilemma of either accepting the proposed charter, such as it was, and conforming to its enactments, or of suddenly terminating their system altogether, to the obvious danger of convulsing the Indian government, and breaking down the system and spirit of the service, and ruining all those dependent on the Company at home. What the Proprietors or Directors might do in such an embarrassing conjuncture he would not presume to anticipate; no final decision had been adopted, although the subject had been under consideration at a recent meeting of the Proprietors; but he would take the liberty to read the conclusion of a report which the Directors had then submitted to the Proprietors, and which exhibited their view of the Bill as it then stood.

"Supposing, however, from the circumstances now mentioned, the commercial profits and the home funds of the Company to be preserved from falling into a state that would interrupt the currency of their affairs, it is still to be expected that from so great a change as the opening of the India trade, from the dispositions of the new adventurers, the restrictions on the Company's Indian investment, and the interference with their public sales, very serious derangements and inconveniences must ensue; and of these evils the executive body may reckon on experiencing a full share. A distinction, however, may equitably be allowed between such disadvantages as would militate essentially against the Company's system, and those which would prove only of an inferior nature; and perhaps some distinction may be made between the Company's undertaking to execute a system proposed by themselves, and a system prescribed to them by the will of the legislature."

"On a question, however, of such unspeakable importance as the present, all the interests belonging to it, or connected with it, ought to be brought into view; not only the interest of the Proprietors, which is the nearest and most immediate concern; not only the numerous interests belonging to, or connected with, the Company at home; but the interests of the Indian empire which they have raised, and its vast native population which has flourished so much under their government; and the interests of the civil and military servants who have administered so excellently, and with a character that adds lustre to the British name, the affairs of that empire; the peculiar constitution. and genius, also, of the system from which such great effects have arisen, and which seems alone fitted to continue them; nor let the Company be supposed, on such an occasion, to leave out of their contemplation what has always been an object of their regard, the interests of the United Kingdom at large.

"Upon all these considerations, with the others here mentioned, and upon the fitness of the Company's situation at the present moment for a final settlement with the public, the Proprietors, to whom the executive body, without presuming to interpose any opinion of their own, respectfully submit this short exposition, will have to determine."

The honourable member to whom he had before alluded (Mr. Whitbread) had set out with saying, that the Directors had been long the mere instruments of ministers, and yet in the close of his speech he had in the way of objection to the present Bill said, that if it passed, the whole would soon fall into the hands of the crown, thus implying that hitherto it had not done so; but still the hon. gentleman went on to profess his concurrence in most part of the speech of a noble lord (Grenville), and particularly in that noble person's doctrine of taking the government of India entirely for the crown.

expressed his sorrow to see such a doctrine so far accredited. It had already, he thought, been sufficiently rejected, and he trusted that it would never be adopted, either upon mere authority, or upon such erroneous grounds as those urged in support of it; and if it were to be considered at all, that due regard should be paid both to the immense addition of power which it went to give to the crown, and to the excellent practical effects of the Company's government which it was now proposed to supersede. For his own part, Mr. Grant said, he should despair of the continuance of that high public spirit, those energetic labours, that intelligence, that elevated tone of character which distinguished the great body of the Company's servants civil and military. Instead of the publicity, the open theatre, upon which all these proceedings were conducted in the view of the different authorities at home, of the whole body of the India Company and of the nation at large, they were to be placed under the orders of a colonial secretary of state, or any governmental department of that nature, and all these recorded exertions to centre in a colonial office. And with the fall of the high spirit of the servants, he should consider that the excellent practical system of local administration so essentially formed by their agency would sink likewise. Nor would the removal of so great a mem- ber of the present Indian system as the Company, whatever some persons may think of it, fail to produce most prejudicial effects upon the general administration of the Indo-British empire, which, if left wholly to the conduct of a secretary of state, would be deprived of many important and salutary guards and aids afforded by the present system.

But the most extraordinary of all the propositions advanced in support of a transfer of the Indian empire to the crown, was that which related to the Indian patronage, a patronage which, it has been agreed on all hands, could not with safety to the British constitution, be placed in the disposal of the King's ministers. And to obviate this very grave difficulty it has been imagined and seriously contended that the Indian patronage might be directed into channels which would separate it entirely from the ministers of the crown. The government of an immense empire, yielding a revenue of 16 millions, containing a vast number of honourable and lucrative offices and appointments, to be given to them, and yet to suppose it possible that they could be excluded from the patronage of these offices and appointments, that whatever preventive resolutions or forms should be adopted, the administrators of that empire should in fact and in practice have nothing to do with the selection, the promotion, the personal interests, views, and connections of the numerous functionaries employed there under them, though those ministers had at the same time the government of this great country also in their hands, was, he might presume to say, to suppose a case of which the history of political society had afforded no example, and which indeed seemed contrary to the nature of things. In every view therefore he considered the existing system of governing India through the medium of the Company to be the best both for that country and for this, and he hoped no attempt would be made to supersede it for the purpose of bringing into experiment an untried theory, not likely to maintain the benefits actually in possession, and manifestly involving new and great evils.

then proceeded to make some remarks in addition to those he had formerly delivered on the speech of an hon. member (Mr. Rickards) who had, in a preceding step of the discussion, arraigned the Company's system of revenue and judicial administration.

That hon. gentleman, he said, bad, at the commencement of his speech, excited the attention of the House by proposing to lay before them the result of many years' Indian experience; and how did he execute this proposal? By describing to them the state of a country in which he had not served, in which he never resided. He had expatiated on the prejudicial effects of the permanent settlement of the lands in Bengal and its dependancies, where he had had no local experience, and on the condition and circumstances of the native population there, of whom, from personal observation, he had no knowledge. This was the first and great branch of his Indian experience which he submitted to the House. His statements had not even the recommendation of exhibiting original information derived by him from other men. His great storehouse was the Fifth Report of a Committee of that House, printed and in every body's hands. From this repository, and not from his own knowledge and experience, he drew his materials. But he drew them in such a way as to favour assertions and conclusions directly at variance with the main scope and tenor of that Report, which were to shew to the House and the public that India, and particularly Bengal, had reaped great benefit from the measures of the permanent land settlement and of the judicial administration, both introduced by lord Cornwallis, followed up by his successors, the lords Teignmouth, Wellesley, and Minto, and accused by the hon. gentleman.

In proof of this, Mr. Grant quoted the concluding passage of the Fifth Report, relative to Bengal, which ran thus:

"Although the view given, in the foregoing part of this Report, may show, that certain imperfections are still found in the system of internal government in the Bengal provinces; yet it can, in the opinion of your Committee, admit of no question, whether the dominion exercised by the East India Company has, on the whole, been beneficial to the natives. If such a question were proposed, your Committee must decidedly answer it in the affirmative. The strength of the government of British India, directed as it has been, has had the effect of securing its subjects, as well from foreign depredation, as from internal commotion. This is an advantage rarely experienced by the subjects of Asiatic states; and, combined with a domestic administration more just in its principles, and exercised with far greater in- tegrity and ability, than the native one that preceded it, may sufficiently account for the improvements that have taken place; and which, in the Bengal provinces, where peace has been enjoyed for a period of time, perhaps hardly paralleled in Oriental history, have manifested themselves in the ameliorated condition of the great mass of the population: although certain classes may have been depressed, by the indispensable policy of a foreign government. The nature and circumstances of our situation, prescribe narrow limits to the prospects of the natives, in the political and military branches of the public service: strictly speaking, however, they were foreigners who generally enjoyed the great offices in those departments, even under the Mogul government; but to agriculture and commerce every encouragement is afforded, under a system of laws, the prominent object of which is, to protect the weak from oppression, and to secure to every individual the fruits of his industry.

"The country, as may be expected, has, under these circumstances, exhibited in every part of it, improvement on a general view, advancing with accelerated progress in latter times."

He then read from the same Report a longer passage containing the concluding remarks relative to the territories under the government of Fort St. George, by which it appeared to be the opinion of the Committee that the permanent land settlements made in the Northern Circars, had produced similar benefits to those experienced in Bengal, but that in other provinces under the Fort St. George presidency, it would be expedient to reconsider the principles which had been acted on, with a view to modifications and improvements derivable from the further lights that had been there obtained on the subject. And the extract closed with the following words:

"One circumstance appears to have peculiarly contributed to make the situation of the great body of the natives, under the government of Fort St. George, infinitely superior to what it was under their Mahomeddan rulers, and by which all the other advantages extended to them, are, as it were, confirmed and secured; that is, the vigour, the efficiency, and, if the expression may be allowed, the unity of its authority, which neither acknowledges nor permits divided sovereignty, but which keeps every other power in subordination to its own. The beneficial operation of this state of things, has been greatly felt in Bengal; but, it is believed, much more on the coast, arising from the greater degree in which a turbulent and warlike spirit pervaded the zemindars, the poligars, and other chiefs. As long as they were allowed to maintain their military retainers and establishments, they not only bade defiance to the government, but were constantly carrying on petty wars, one against the other; by which, the fields of the ryot were over-run and laid waste, his crops destroyed, and whatever other property he possessed, became a sacrifice to the predatory bands of contending parties. Even the potail of a village, in many parts of the country, had his small military retinue; and among this description of persons, the same scenes of intestine disturbance were exhibited, though on an inferior scale. At present, there exists not, unless it be in the hills of the Northern circars, and in some few other places, any military force kept up by individuals. The unruly and restless spirit of the poligar, is gradually giving way to the peaceable habits of the landholder; and the ryot is enabled to pursue the cultivation of his fields, without danger or apprehension. It is not meant by your Committee to assert, that the evils which are here alluded to, are not occasionally still experienced, but they are now only occasional, where they were continual, and when they have unhappily occurred, they have been vigorously and promptly suppressed, and have led to those further measures of effectual precaution, which a powerful government has alone the means of employing, and which it is its duty to employ, when necessary, for the protection of those committed to its care."

The hon. gentleman (Mr. Rickards) had quoted Mr. Colebrooke as adverse to the permanent settlement in Bengal, but so far was this from being the fact, that in a Minute of the 20th June, 1808, Mr. Colebrooke, in reply to the objections urged by the commissioners in the upper provinces to the extension of that system into those provinces, urged the immediate introduction of it. The hon. gentleman calls a people much unknown to him, as it has appeared, a nation of beggars, and his illustrations of this position are, that they live upon rice, and have only a slight covering of cotton cloth; that they are obliged to till the lands for want of other employment; and that the cultivators are worse off than other labourers, and cannot get rich by means of industry. In these particulars, so far as they now exist, the hon. gentleman seems to have described the Hindoo people in all ages, and under their own governments. Was there ever a period in which the main article of their food was not rice, in which the common people wore any thing but a slight covering, or perhaps only a cincture of cotton cloth? Such are now the chief food and clothing of many among them able to afford more costly things. Their customs, their climate, dispose them to much simplicity in these matters, and this simplicity is not to be taken as a proof of poverty, or a proof that those who are confined to it from necessity, are, in the sense of that people, in any greater state of poverty than the peasants of this country are relative to the other classes. A rich Hindoo, when he retires from attendance on his European master, puts himself at ease in a thin partial covering of cotton cloth; The Hindoos have been in all ages an agricultural people; they are fond of occupying land; even the manufacturers employ a part of their time in cultivation or gardening. Is not the cultivation of the soil naturally practised in all inhabited countries? Is it not desirable this should be so? Could we think, well of the state of a country where the people did not chuse to cultivate the soil? and what shall be said of the political wisdom of representing their doing so as a hardship, or the result of necessity, because they can get nothing else to do? And is it peculiar to Hindostan that the peasants do not become rich by their industry? Where is the country in which the manual labour of the agriculturist, or even of the manufacturer, makes him rich?

said, he had on a former night endeavoured to correct the hon. gentleman's representations regarding the division of the produce of the soil between the government and the zemindar. The one-tenth mentioned by the hon. gentleman was ten per cent. on the government share of the produce, now usually converted into a money rent. This was an established usage in the country anterior to the administration of the Company, and seemed to be in the nature of a commission, or, as it is literally termed, a subsistence, to the zemindar as the officer or collector of government; and this being derived from two crops at least in the year, it is evident that the quantum of subsistence given there in one year, would be equal to the quantum of subsistence given in two years where only one crop per ann. was produced, that is equal to 20 per cent. in such a country as this. But though this was the original rule of division, the hon. gentleman had no right to assume that it was all which in fact accrued to the zemindar from his office. It was customary for him to receive various presents and contributions from his under tenants, and it is supposed that he reserved portions of land which he never brought at all into the view of government, and the government share of which was therefore all his own; a supposition warranted by known facts. Moreover, the demand of government upon the zemindar being now fixed, whatever improvement he can make in the land will be to his exclusive benefit. It can no more therefore be affirmed that the zemindar pays to government nine-tenths of all his present receipts, than it can be said that the land of this country lately paid to government the proportion of its actual rent, at which it was taxed in the time of king William, a case cited not as a parallel one, but for illustration. So with respect to the share of the gross produce paid to government by the under tenants or ryots, although it was usually, and had been long estimated at one-half, it was not true that this was the invariable or even general standard of the government demand. A paper which he read, stated "that the proportion varied from a half to a third and even lower according to the qualities of soil; it being obvious that the cultivator of a rich farm can afford to pay a larger proportion of the gross produce than the cultivator of a poor farm: the labour required, being the same in both, and the quantity of seed greater in the latter case than in the former. But very often a deduction is made from the gross produce for the support of village officers, and sometimes for the payment of allowances to brahmins, before the crop is divided or rather before the rate of assessment is fixed, the dues of government being no where levied in kind."

It was certainly true that many of the zemindars of Bengal were fallen into decay, and apparently in consequence of the permanent settlement which was intended to be a great boon to them, and might have proved so, had it not been for their incapacity, their habitual indolence, and their entrusting their affairs to careless, dishonest dependants. Considerable sales of their lands had hence become necessary in the early stage of the permanent settle- ment to pay their arrears of revenue, and so far as they were thus subjected to hardship, the effect, however arising partly from themselves, was to be regretted, though it was also true that the dismemberment of such very large estates or rather territories as some of them possessed would be no injury to the country in general. Neither was it just to assert, as the hon. gentleman had done, that the ancient frame of society was broken down, because some of one class, though a very considerable class, had fallen into decay and obscurity. Their rank in society, though not their great estates, would be occupied by the prudent and industrious of their order. And the evil to which their decline is imputed has now very much ceased. In a paper which he held in his hand it was stated "that the land annually advertised for sale in Bengal to secure the realization of the public revenue does not comprize a jumma or assessment of one lac of rupees, and the land so disposed of generally brings from four to five lac of rupees, which is about 45 years' purchase of the zemindar's share of the rent, supposing it to be only a tenth." And as a proof of the facility with which the rents are now paid in Bengal it is further stated, "that three months after the close of the official year, the arrears of land revenue out-standing do not amount to one half per cent. on the jumma or rent-roll." To this it may be added that the rent paid now is not greater than it was 30 years ago, although the population be increased; which two facts, increase of population and no increase of rent, together with another admitted fact that cultivation has also been extended, must be taken as clear signs of the improvement of the country, and so the Bengal government have understood them. The hon. gentleman in the view he gave of the state of the landholders in Bengal, seemed not to be aware of a most material fact that there was a great deal of the land of that country held in free property, having been bestowed for religious or other purposes, and a great deal too, as is generally believed, which had been fraudulently alienated from government, and now paid no rent to it. The possessors of those lands could not possibly be classed as under the circumstances in which the zemindars are described by the hon. gentleman, because not subjected to the sales of their lands or to any distress for rent.

With regard to the peninsula, it would appear from the Fifth Report, a passage from which he had already quoted, that the same spirit of general improvement was operative there as in Bengal, though many of the provinces being of recent acquisition, and not yet well accustomed to our government, nor prepared for our system, the progress was more slow, but still in various divisions of the territories of that presidency the amelioration was evident and advancing.

That under both presidencies, and in all the vast range of the Company's dominions, a system of judicial administration had been established, to which for purity, equity, and a solicitous regard for the rights of the people, nothing comparable had ever been exhibited by the native governments of India, was a truth which could not justly be disputed. But in so vast a population, peculiarly attached to established usages, and where the administrators of justice were comparatively so few, it was not to be wondered at that objections and defects still remained. The police in Bengal especially, of the imperfect state of which, as acknowledged in the Fifth Report, the hon. gentleman had availed himself to disparage the Company's system, it had been found very difficult to render completely efficient. This was in part owing to the great extent of the country, its many rivers and forests, which afforded the decoits or gang robbers easy means of retreat and concealment—but it was also much owing to the abject, spirit of the people, who, void of public principle, did not second the efforts of the government, although they were themselves the great sufferers. But there was reason to hope, from authentic recent information, that obstacles hitherto perplexing would be surmounted, and a greater degree of security and tranquillity be at length established.

On the whole, he hoped the House would not be induced to draw any conclusion unfavourable to the Company, on the authority of the hon. member. That hon. gentleman had himself no practical knowledge of the countries and people forming much the greater part of out Eastern empire, concerning whose state he had so decisively pronounced, and his representations were in opposition to the voluminous records of the Company, and to the testimonies of the highest characters, which concurred in shewing that such a system of legislation and justice as was instituted by the Company had never be- fore been known in that region of the world. The practical knowledge of the hon. gentleman in matters of revenue and justice was, he believed, confined to the Malabar coast, where certainly the state of the people did not warrant his representations, landed property, with a portion of the advantages resulting from it, having long existed there; and accordingly the hon. gentleman had drawn nothing in support of his statements from that quarter in which, and in which only, he had had the local experience, upon which he had professed to proceed in first soliciting the attention of the House. The hon. gentleman's acquaintance with the affairs of the Company was chiefly confined to the western part of India, which afforded no picture of the state of things in the Company's other possessions.

Into the hon. gentleman's statements concerning the profits in the Company's trade, his allegations of their carrying on trade by revenue in India and borrowed money at home, his analysis of the Indian debt and revenues, Mr. Grant said he would not attempt to go. It was impossible to follow his speech on these points. He supposed the hon. gentleman would render his statements more public. He hoped so, and then the hon. gentleman might depend on it they would receive a full answer. He read some extracts from the Company's records to explain and vindicate the Company from the charges of the hon. gentleman relative to a contract for pepper into which they had entered with the rajah of Travancore. It appeared that there had been various contracts from a pretty early period, and that the one they were accused of having departed from, was comparatively of recent date, was framed in terms which left them a great latitude and discretion. That the servants of the rajah, whenever they could dispose of his pepper on better terms, were backward to fulfil his engagements with the Company, and that the last contract which had been made for five years was now expired, and had not been renewed, so that this concern was at an end. Mr. Grant also referred to some documents and facts in defence of the proceedings on the part of the Company in the provision of Surat cotton, which Mr. Rickards had accused, and to the representations which that hon. gentleman had made of coercion and oppression exercised towards the manufacturers employed for the Company at Surat, where they had sometimes provided their investment by contract with native merchants, who then had to transact immediately with the manufacturers. Mr. Grant opposed the code of regulations framed and published at Bombay on the model of those of Bengal for the protection of the manufacturers, which regulations, printed, were now before the House. But, said Mr. Grant, supposing any thing had been wrong in these commercial transactions, it was the act of the Company's servants;—it was contrary to the intention of the Company, it was not their interest that their subjects should be oppressed; it was their wish to promote the welfare of that people, and where errors have been discovered they have been earnest to correct them. But if the hon. gentleman, who was a member of the Company's government at Bombay, saw such proceedings, was it not his duty to have opposed them, and to have denounced them to his employers? Would it not, he submitted, have been more becoming in a servant of the Company to have stated the grievances which he supposed to exist to the Company themselves, rather than to bring them forward as a subject of charge in that House, in order to bear hostilely upon the important question of the renewal of their charter? He concluded by expressing a wish that the Company might still be enabled to maintain that system which had produced such beneficial effects, and that the House would seriously pause, before they adopted measures which might endanger the system, and on which the happiness or misery of millions might depend.

expressed his conviction, that the East India Company not alone had been, but might still remain, a most successful source of national greatness. With regard to the China trade, he thought the preservation of it to the Company, was absolutely necessary to the existence of their political power in India. With respect to India itself, be could not help thinking, that the proposed extension of the trade thither, was likely to prove singularly advantageous, as well to the East India Company as to the private merchant. If the Company should abstain from an undue exertion of her political power, and acquire advantages over the private trader—and if the merchant should abstain from captious complaint and unfounded representation, he did not hesitate to believe that their success would be more than commensurate with the hopes of the most sanguine; every thing would go to the advantage and prosperity of all engaged in the extensive field of commerce which would be opened. There was a third party who, he thought, would be equally benefited by this change, he meant the natives of India—for whose welfare and happiness he was most anxious. It was with serious regret that he viewed the various publications which had been issued respecting these individuals, against whom the most infamous and unfounded insinuations and libels had been circulated. What, he would ask, would be the natural consequence of impressions arising from such insinuations? If the natives of India were represented as a race of beings devoid of all truth and honour—would not those, who, in the new order of things, visited their shores, treat them with contempt and cruelty? The assertions, however, which had been made, from his own personal knowledge, he could distinctly contradict; and he should endeavour to remove the effects which seemed to have been created by them on the mind of one hon. member (Mr. Wilberforce), whose benevolence and kindness of heart, he was satisfied, would lead him to feel infinite delight at hearing calumnies of so foul and so cruel a nature, clearly and positively refuted. The publications which were most conspicuously violent against the Hindoos, were those of Dr. Buchannan, and some that had come from the missionary press, which were replete with the most virulent statements against the morals and virtue of the native Indians; and observed, that they were deficient both in honour, honesty, gratitude, and charity, and that the Hindoo children received no moral instruction whatever. The hon. gentleman then referred to some extracts from the books to which he had alluded; and, amongst others, to one called The Rise of Wisdom, which was not less unfounded in its statement than the former, To prove the want of truth in those representations, he first referred to a letter which was addressed to one of the sultans, some years back, by a Hindoo, praising, in the most energetic language, the liberal policy which had characterised his reign; and tracing the blessings with which it had been crowned to his paternal regard for all his subjects, whether Hindoos or Mahometans. Let the House compare the principles contained in this letter with the allegations to be found in The Rise of Wisdom, and judge how far the latter was to be credited. Far diffe- rent was our book of wisdom, which, as the Apostle said, "was full of gentleness, and easy to be entreated." To do justice to the Company's government they had always acted on this enlightened and liberal system, till of late years, a different system had crept in, which, if they had not sanctioned, they had, at all events, permitted. God forbid that it should be sanctioned by them; for it was directly contrary to the faith pledged by us to the inhabitants, who were taught to believe that they should be permitted, without molestation, to pursue their own religion under our government. To this toleration we owe it, as was observed by an ingenious writer, "that the great body of the inhabitants have remained contented beneath the Company's sway. The brahmins have not come from their silent retreats—they have not mixed in the tumults of the state—they have not directed the torch of religion to the destruction of our establishments." He would have dismissed these attacks on the character of the natives of India, with contempt, he would have abstained from all quotations in their favour, if the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilberforce) had not spoken so much of their vices, and so little of their virtues; instead of ascribing the former to the nature of the people, he ought to have attributed them, as was mainly the fact, to the errors of the government under which they lived. Every man must know the scene of oppression and cruelty, which, for the last 300 years, India had displayed. So far as the Company could remove these abuses, they had never relaxed their efforts; but extensive alterations, especially when the morals of a people were concerned, could not be very speedily effected. It was asserted that the literature of India was destitute of morality—he had never found it so; on the contrary, the books which he read in that country were perhaps too much taken up with lessons of morality. Moral sentences intervened so often, even in their books of amusement, that the thread of the narrative was destroyed by them. He would, on this particular point, trouble the House with a few short extracts from a Hindoo work, familiar to every person in India, the morality of which could not be too highly approved. The hon. gentleman here introduced several extracts, under the heads of Truth, Charity, Mercy, Religion, and Hospitality; they were as remarkable for the purity of the doctrine sought to be en- forced, as for the beautiful, but simple style, in which they were written. With respect to the charge made against the Hindoos, of the infidelity of the sexes towards each other, he believed their moral sentiments with respect to the conduct of women, were as good as ours, and their general practice, better. On this subject the book which he had just quoted, said—"The beauty of a wife is constancy to her husband. It is better to perish than to seduce the wife of another." On the crime of stealing, it observed, "Shall I nourish myself with the fruits of another? It is better to beg my bread, than to exist by dishonesty." The observation on murder, breathed the utmost detestation of that crime. That division of the book which spoke of the effects of oppression, afforded many sentences which might be considered as correctly accounting for many of the vices which were attributed to the people of India. The first sentence was, "When laws are ill enforced, where are good morals to be found?" The hon. gentleman next read a Hindoo prayer, which breathed throughout the most fervent spirit of devotion to the Deity. It was impossible for any man to behold the brahmins repeat that prayer, without feeling his mind greatly affected by it. He had often witnessed their religious worship, but he could not perceive in it those traces of cruelty and superstition, of which some gentlemen had spoken; it appeared to him to be replete with devotion to God, and benevolence to man. He then read an extract from a work of a modern date, the author of which observed, that "he could not view this people, as they were viewed by many. He looked upon them as the descendants of ancestors, who had attained a high degree of proficiency in the sciences, before a spark of learning was kindled in these countries. The sultan Achmet treated the brahmins with particular kindness—and his vizier spoke of them as possessing a fine moral character, and being greatly refined by education." The hon. gentleman next introduced a variety of extracts from the work of Mr. Orme, in which the character of the Gentoos is placed in the most amiable light. From this gentleman's statements, it appeared that the third part of every Gentoo's wealth was laid out in charitable purposes—providing buildings for religious purposes—forming ponds for the labourers—and providing daily victuals for the poor. "Nothing," said Mr. Orme, "was wanting for the happiness of this nation, except that others should have looked upon them with the same indifference, as they regarded that which did not belong to them." And he concluded by stating, what bore out the argument which he (Mr. Lushington) had before advanced, that "their vices are the fault of their government, not of their religion. If we were placed in the same situation, I doubt, whether we should be better. The sons of liberty may here see the baneful effects of a despotic government; the mind debased by ignorance, the body tortured unnecessarily. When they compare their situation with that which I have described, it will render their happiness so much the greater." As the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilberforce) had alluded to certain inhabitants of the district of Tellicherry having been converted to the Christian faith, and, from this result, justified the hope of greater success, he thought it necessary to advert to that subject, as he resided in the district at the time. Mr. Lushington here read a long narrative of the circumstances which had taken place at Tellicherry—from which, it appeared, that a missionary, named Jellicoe, had received permission to attempt the conversion of the natives, in that district, and succeeded in several instances. The consequence was, that continual disputes arose, between those who had adopted the Christian religion, and those who had adhered to their own. The former, who had been of the lowest castes, conducting themselves disrespectfully to those who were of the highest. These disputes continued after he (Mr. Lushington) had quitted the country; but, he had learned, that, when Mr. Jellicoe departed, the converts, to a man, forsook their new faith, and went back to the religion which they had for a time forsaken.—He should now conclude, requesting the particular attention of the House to the opinion of sir William Jones, on this important subject:—"We may assure ourselves, that neither Mussulman or Hindoo will be converted by any missionary from the church of Rome, or any other church; and the only way to attain the great object of conversion would be, to translate into Sanscrit and Hindoostannee, select passages from those parts of the Scripture, particularly from Isaiah, which are truly evangelical; and also those prophecies respecting the East, which have been fulfilled. These should be dispersed among the well-educated Hindoos; and, if such an appeal have no effect, we can only lament the strength of that prejudice which prevents men from pursuing their most vital interests."

complained that the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, in alluding to the authorities on which his hon. friend (Mr. Wilberforce) had founded his arguments, had introduced the name of Dr. Buchanan. This was a misrepresentation. His hon. friend, from the beginning to the end of his eloquent speech, had not mentioned the work published by that gentleman. The hon. gentleman was also guilty of a mis-representation, when he supposed that those who supported the missionary system, would tolerate force, in procuring proselytes. (Cries of No, no!) He knew the hon. gentleman did not so express himself; but, when he besought them not to use violence, the inference was, that he supposed they would resort to it, otherwise his observation was useless. The House, he thought, was placed in a kind of dilemma; gentlemen of equal respectability and knowledge had given evidence on each side of the question. How, then, were they to act, when the balance was thus equal? In his opinion, if, in such a case, the precepts of the Scripture leaned to either side, there was a decided preponderance on that side which was thus supported, and it ought to be upheld. All that he heard with respect to the natives of India, he received with many grains of allowance; for every gentleman spoke with a free disposition to render one side or other of the question triumphant. And when gentlemen stated things as facts, of which they were not eye-witnesses, as had been the case with the hon. gentleman who spoke last, he received them with some suspicion. On this subject the letter of Mr. Schwartz, which was on the table of the House, contained a passage, the justice of which must strike every person who read it. It was there stated, that reports in India "were hazarded on a very slight foundation;" so that if the accounts of the missionaries were not to be believed, those of their enemies were not an iota more worthy of credence. For his own part, he thought the weight of authority rested with those who stamped a certain degree of moral turpitude on the Hindoos. He considered Mr. Pope's description of superstition as being exactly applicable to them;—

"Fear makes their devils, and weak hope their gods,

Gods, partial, changeful, passionate, unjust, Whose attributes are rage, revenge, and lust!"

This was the exact character of the Hindoo religion, and for the truth of the assertion, he would refer to their own sacred books. With respect to their women, they were treated as slaves—they were treated in that manner which their law and their religion enjoined. To prove the general contempt in which women were held, he would read an extract from The Institutions of Menu, a sacred work of the Hindoos. "Women," said Menu, "have six qualities—1st, An inordinate desire for finery—2nd, Immoderate lust—3d, Violent anger—4th, Deep and dark resentment—5th, Malignant envy—and 6th, (as a most inadequate corollary from those premises) Irregular and vicious conduct." He begged leave to contrast this character of women, with that sweet state of domestic society with which the hon. gentleman had favoured the House. Now Christianity appeared to him as the great sanction of a pure system of morals, which he thought, ought to be extended to the inhabitants of Hindostan. If he did not believe one iota of the divine origin of that religion, yet, as a philosopher, he should admire it, for the pure principles of morality which it inculcated; and he should be anxious to introduce it among the Hindoos, for the purpose of driving from the shores of India that cruel and bloody superstition, which at present disgraced them. It was no argument to say, because Christianity had not always produced this effect, that it should no longer be disseminated; or that, because all Christians were not better than all Hindoos, that, therefore, the religion of the latter was preferable. The hon. gentleman had read to them a prayer translated from the Hindoo language, in which a knowledge of the Deity was most clearly expressed. But, let any gentleman look to Homer, or any other of the Greek poets, and they would find expressions of the same description. But, were the characters of the common people formed on this model? By no means. Their characters were rather influenced by the subordinate deities; they paid more attention to Bacchus and Mars, than to any abstract idea of a first cause, which might be discovered in the writings of their poets. Socrates, in eloquent language, had argued on the existence of a supreme Being—but it could not be said, that his reasoning had influenced the people of Athens. With respect to the rights of the Hindoos, he would ask, if the people committed the greatest crime, and afterwards, by ablution in the Ganges, or any other river, by muttering a number of foolish words, or performing a few ridiculous ceremonies, imagined that they were freed from the sin, could any other effect be produced, than to entice men to perpetrate crimes, when he could so clearly expiate them? And, if they found a caste, who were permitted, with impunity, to practise every species of vice, was it not self-evident that such a power would be abused? Yet this was the situation in which the brahmins were placed, as they learned from every person who travelled in the East. If this was true, what was the remedy? It was not force; it was to be found by introducing amongst them a pure and holy morality. With respect to the flattering picture which the hon. gentleman had given of domestic affection in India, how did it agree with the marriage of an individual with one, sometimes with thirty wives, every one of whom, he was perfectly aware, must, at his decease, perish by excruciating torments, or else live in a state of contempt and degradation? The hon. gentleman then related the story of a woman who had been placed on the funeral pile, but who, during a dark and stormy night, had been enabled to disengage herself from the corse of her husband, and had taken shelter in a neighbouring thicket, from whence she had been dragged by her own son, who declared that if she did not die he would. He could not prevail on her to hang or drown herself, and assisted by the ministers of religion he thrust her on the pile from which she had escaped, where she ended her life in the most miserable manner. The hon. gentlemen who opposed him had better deny these facts, which tended to expose the system which they were inclined to uphold, than admit them, and endeavour to argue upon such data. The hon. gentleman then compared the Christian religion with that of the Hindoos, and said, that it was not a religion which forbad the killing of a cow, but suffered the sacrificing of a woman; it did not prevent the cow when killed, from becoming human food, although it prevented cruelty being used towards it when alive. He believed the Christian religion to be of divine origin, but in mere moral- ity and humanity it so far surpassed any thing to be found in the religion of the orientals, that its propagation must be attended with the happiest effects. He contended not for the employment of force: all he asked was, that Christianity should not be hid—merely that it should not be prevented from taking root in a soil calculated for its reception: and while the advocates of the Christian missions went no farther, he trusted they would neither be called hypocrites, nor be left without the support of a majority of the legislature.

said, he would be as brief as he possibly could, for he feared that he had already trespassed too much on the indulgence of the House. He should not, however, take up the time of the House at the present moment in answering those who had recently spoken, for he did not conceive that they had been too tenacious of confining themselves to the question really before the House. They had come to the resolution, at least the ministers had, that the present system of the Company must be done away, and that a new one must be established; but he would say, however unpopular the idea might be, that the system which they were about to pull down was the best that could be devised. This was his settled opinion, create whatever unpopularity the expression of it might, and he must lament that ever any set of men, for any purposes whatever, could think of doing it away. The government of India as carried on heretofore, through the medium of the Company and the Board of Controul, was the best, he believed, that human wisdom could devise. He did not say it was perfect, no man pretended to say that it ever had been; but it approached as near to perfection as any one had a right to expect that human institutions could. But this system was to be abolished. He feared that he should live to see the day when he should have greater reason to lament its downfall than he had at the present moment. Abolished, however, must be that system, to answer, he supposed, the views of our ministers; and the House were called upon to devise a system to be established in its stead. But the ministers had not left them to the creations of their own minds—they had generously marked out one for them; and so excellent was that system, so founded on the results of experience, on the wisdom that had been collected in the progress of ages, that now, for the first time within the last 200 years, were they called upon to grant a charter to the East India Company without continuing to the Company the exclusive trade of India. But the trade was to be thrown open—the Company were to trade to India, to use the language of the Bill in his hand, "in common" with the rest of his Majesty's subjects, and yet part of that trade was to be shut against all his Majesty's subjects except those forming the Company! He would have it understood, however, that he did not profess to comprehend very clearly this proposed method of shutting a part and opening a part, while that part which was to be opened to all his Majesty's subjects "in common" with the Company, might be shut against all those who might happen to be obnoxious to the minister for the time being through the medium of the Board of Controul, as it was to have the power of refusing or granting licences to vessels whether agreeable to the Company or not. Then, this Bill was to add to the influence of the government, for what else could be its objects, if it contained such powers? He would go through the Bill, as he had many observations to make on its different clauses; but as he could scarcely hope to make any impression on the noble lord, as he, it was to be be feared, was "too far gone" with his friends at the outports, he (Mr. T.) would not trespass too much on the House in going through what might now be considered dull detail. He, however owed it to himself to perform this part of his duty, while he felt constrained to thank the House for the short indulgence which it seemed inclined to extend towards him. The Bill set out with stating that the government of India was to remain in the hands of the Company as heretofore; and yet in spite of this declation the Board of Controul glimmered with but too strong a light throughout every part of the measure. Then this was a mere pretext—a specious delusive mockery—but, said the Bill, the government of India was to be with the Company.—They were then told that the Company was to be very much favoured—that they, forsooth, were to be allowed to trade to India "in common"—in common!—with the rest of his Majesty's subjects; but the House might soon see what benefits the Company were to have "in common" with the rest of his Majesty's subjects. But the trade was to be a free trade—it was to be opened to the people "in common," and then came, the clause confining it to some favoured ports. This was free trade—this was opening the commerce of India to the people "in common!" But then it was said by those who were against opening the trade, that if it were opened how was smuggling to be prevented? The government however had no fear of smuggling. If that really were the case—if they thought in the fulness of their wisdom that they could prevent smuggling altogether, why was not every port in the United Kingdom to be made eligible to partake in this free trade? Was the extension meant to be considered, so far as the places named were concerned, a boon from the minister to particular and favourite ports? Each port returned two members—did the minister think that he should find his account in giving them a share in the India trade? That the extension was meant with the view of creating influence and patronage, he had little doubt; but he thought the minister would be deceived in his hopes and calculations. After the ports, however, had been named, then came another arrangement, which again displayed the Board of Controul in the question, what kind of ships should be allowed to proceed to India? In the first place, application to the Company was to be made for licenses; and they might refuse, but not without stating their reasons, and those were to be submitted to the Board of Controul. He must repeat, here again appeared the Board of Controul, which showed itself in every part of the Bill, and which would ultimately accomplish the downfall of the Company; for notwithstanding the Company might refuse to license a vessel, the Board of Controul might give her permission. But while they were talking of free trade, what was the House to be told of licenses; and if the Board of Controul were to have the real power of licensing, who could doubt that he would be most successful in obtaining licenses who had the most parliamentary influence at his back? The security from smuggling was to be the manifest; but what that manifest was to be, or how regulated, it was hereafter to be determined. Now what sort of Bill was this that they were passing? He disliked the projected mode of interfering with the usual form of the Company's sales. The alteration must tend to break down that on which the Company mainly relied, namely, their sales in this country; for if the private merchant were to have an advantage over the Company in their sales, how could the Company hope to stand? Then again came the licensing of individuals to go to India; and never was mortal placed in such a predicament as he might be by this act of parliament. The Company might refuse to license him, and yet the Board of Controul might send the individual to India! Then the government there might, or might not object to him; and if he were objected to, it might gazette him for months as a dangerous character! These things, like the free and open trade that was so much talked of and found no where but in some gentlemen's speeches, were mere mockeries. As to the Company's territorial engagements, which at a round sum might be called three or four millions, if the alterations should prevent the Company from meeting those engagements, then they were to have assistance from parliament, provided the Company could show the Board of Controul—the Board of Controul again! that it was not the fault of the Company that they were so prevented. Here came the discretion—and where was the discretion to be placed? It was to be placed in the Board, where all the power and influence was to be centered, that power and influence which would work the downfall of the Company. He was anxious to repeat this opinion, for it was his firm conviction that such would be the case; and he only lamented that others did not behold what they ought to dread so strongly as he did. All this appeared to be a kind of machinery, preparatory to the seizure of the dominions of the East. The noble lord laughed at that; but was there ever any proposition so extravagant as that of giving the Company a charter for twenty years, without knowing whether they would be able to manage the government under their new regulations?—He now came to the consideration of the clause for the appointment of an archbishop, who was never to apply himself to trade. Why? What was he to employ himself about? An arduous task—the jurisdiction from the Cape of Good Hope to remote Cape Horn. It would have been well had any explanation been given concerning what the archbishop was to busy himself about. He had no concern with morals and religion, these were confided in a separate clause to the missionaries. It appeared to him a gross job, the object of which was church patronage in India. The directors, he apprehended, would not be justified in accepting the charter, unless they could satisfactorily show that the Company would be able to fulfil all its engagements. He saw with the deepest concern this mode of legislating, which in a few years would inevitably lead to the Company's bankruptcy, and the consequent assumption of their lost power by the government.

declared that he had never heard a speech of less solid argument, nor one less likely to prevent the House from coming to a determination, than that just delivered by the right hon. gentleman. He seemed to be anxious that the eloquence which he expended in vain on parliament should not be lost elsewhere; but, for his own part, he hoped the proprietors understood true policy better than to refuse such a charter. Did the right hon. gentleman think that the prosperity or downfall of India depended on the extension of the imports to the outports? As the right hon. gentleman seemed anxious to apply his arguments to practical purposes rather than to make an impression upon principles, he would gratify him by moving that the House do now resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill.

complimented the liberality with which the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney,) had come forward in defence of the East India Company, but denied that the responsibility would rest upon the Court of Directors, if they accepted the charter, for he contended that the responsibility was with parliament. The Company had formerly been a joint stock company; they were now to become a government company, and he hoped in God they would not end in a bankrupt company.

contended strongly, that the Bill ought to have contained a clause similar to one of the Resolutions submitted to that House, for withholding from India-built ships, the privileges intended to be conferred upon British ships. He maintained that such a provision was of vital importance.

jun. defended the conduct of the East India Company in respect to the management of their territorial revenues, and contended that by the proposed system the greatest dangers would result to the interests of the Company by the establishment of Europeans in India.

After Mr. Fawcett had said a few words, the House went into a committee, and on the motion of lord Castlereagh, the Bill passed the Committee pro forma. The Report was received and ordered to be taken into further consideration on Thursday.