, immediately upon taking the chair, acquainted the House, that he had with deep concern to signify to the House, that Mr. John Ley, their deputy clerk, had died that morning, and that Mr. John Henry Ley, the second clerk assistant, had requested leave of absence on account of the death of his near relation.

said, that the services of Mr. Ley had been so long and so faithful, that he was sure the House would agree with him in the propriety of placing on the records of the House some testimony of the merits of that much esteemed gentleman, as had been done in the case of other meritorious servants of the House. He then moved, "That this House entertains a just and high sense of the distinguished and exemplary manner in which John Ley, esq., late deputy clerk of this House, uniformly discharged the duties of his situation, during his long attendance at the table of this House for nearly 47 years."

seconded the motion, and concurred in the sentiments expressed by the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as to the merits and services of Mr. Ley.

regretted the occasion of this motion, and gave his testimony to the merits of that long tried and worthy servant of the House.

The motion was then agreed to, nem. con.

Mr. Henry Gunnell was then ordered to attend and assist at the table.

rose and said, that in consequence of his having been informed that morning, that it had not been possible to make out the copy of the conviction of the persons concerned in the late fraud on the Stock Exchange, it was his wish to postpone his motion on that subject till to-morrow se'nnight.

said, that in a conversation which took place on the Colonial Bill, he gave notice, that when he saw an hon. gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) in his place, he would put a question to him respecting Mr. Le Marchant, who had been appointed to an important situation in the colonies. He had then stated, that a letter had appeared in the public papers, which tended, if its contents were true, to reflect much discredit on Mr. Le Marchant, and pressed the necessity of his removal: in answer to this it was stated, that during the trial it would not be proper to take so decisive a step, and that the determination of government would depend on the issue of that trial. He saw the hon. gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) at the trial; and if any thing more was necessary to satisfy him, and to prove the inexpediency of continuing the gentleman in the office to which he was appointed, it might have been found in what Mr. Le Marchant had said upon that trial; for he there confessed, that he was determined to withhold his testimony, if the terms proposed by him were accepted. The demand he made was totally unworthy of him, and of the situation to which he was appointed. The situation was in the West India islands, and one of the greatest importance in all the internal system of their government. By this place the care of all the public records affecting the property of individuals, de- volved upon him, and also the secretary ship both of the governor and privy council. Considering the importance of such a place, and the secrets relating to the government which must be intrusted to the person who filled it, he hoped he might appeal to the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to know whether it was intended to continue Mr. Le Marchant in the situation.

said, he could not answer officially, but he believed that government would be directed in their conduct by what appeared on the trial, and that the course pursued would be such as the House would approve of.

said, that he rose for the purpose of submitting, for the consideration and approbation of the House, the terms of the loan which had been that day contracted for. From the unavoidable absence of many members of that House, it was his intention to postpone, to a future opportunity, a great part of what he intended to say on the subject of the supplies and the ways and means, generally known by the appellation of the Budget. He would, therefore, confine himself to a brief statement of the supplies already granted, what remained to be voted, the ways and means to defray those charges, and the terms on which the loan had been contracted for. The House would recollect that many items still remained to be provided for, among which were the army estimates, and also the sums necessary to defray the ordnance service, which would absorb a considerable portion of the ways and means of the year. The war taxes, amounting to 21,000,000l. might be considered as applicable to these two purposes—and he would state, in detail, the ways and means by which the remaining charges were to be met. By adopting this course of proceeding, he would bring under the consideration of the committee the supplies which had been granted, together with those that still might be wanting; and next, the ways and means, before they came to the consideration of the loan. The right hon. gentleman then proceeded to state the different heads of supply as follow:

The Ways and Means which he would propose to meet this sum were—

It would here occur to many gentlemen that he had not taken credit for the consolidated fund; but the reason of this was, that it fell so far short in the last year from what might have been expected from it; and therefore he thought it wiser to permit its growing profits to accumulate for some future time, than to make any farther charge upon a fund which had disappointed their expectations. The right hon. gentleman then stated that in the Customs duties there had been a deficiency; but from the unfortunate fire which had happened at the Custom-house, he was not able to state on what articles the deficiencies had arisen. The amount of the Customs duties received was 9,818,000l. which was two millions short of the expectation that had been formed. In the Excise the produce had been considerably greater, and all the other branches had been comparatively flourishing. The stamp duties to the 5th of April, 1813, amounted to 22,957,000l. and for the last year 23,971,000l. which gave an increase of about a million. The beer was not quite equal to the last year. In 1813, it produced 2,699,000l., and in 1814, but 2,585,000l. The produce of malt, for 1813, was 4,440,000l., and for 1814, 4,875,000l. making an increase of about 430,000l. The produce of British spirits for 1813, had been 2,632,000l. and for 1814, 2,969,000l. an increase of 300,000l. On Foreign spirits an increase had also taken place; in 1813, the produce was 2,325,000l., in 1814, 2,521,000l. being an increase of nearly 200,000l. Foreign wines, in consequence of the destruction of the vineyards in Portugal, had not been productive for many years, but there had been a rise in the last year from 947,000l. to 1,013,000l. Upon teas there had been an increase from 3,547,000l. to 3,652,000l.; and on the Post-office an increase from 1,265,000l. to 1,289,000l., an increase which, although trivial, yet proved the benefit which had arisen from the new measures that had been adopted. The assessed taxes, which included some of the taxes which had not been collected in 1812—in 1813, amounted to 5,880,000l. and in 1814, to 6,339,000l. being an increase of half a million. The land tax which was a fixed rate, in consequence of the progress of its redemption was not quite so productive as the former year; its amount in 1813, was 1,081,000l., and in the last year but 1,000,059l. The remaining branch of the taxes was the property tax, upon which there had also been a considerable increase. The produce for 1813, was 12,868,000l.; for 1814, 14,485,000l.; making a surplus of 1,517,000l.

He had now stated the general produce of the revenue in detail, and this he thought the best mode of acting, as the House would be enabled to form a judgment on the produce of the different branches. The unfortunate event to which he had already alluded, namely, the fire at the Custom-house, prevented him from satisfying the House upon the increase of our trade, but he could with confidence state that our actual exports in the last year had exceeded in a most flourishing degree any other year which had preceded it. The last thing which he had to advert to, was the terms of the loan. He would, however, before he proceeded to make his statement on this subject, anticipate a question which his hon. friend opposite (Mr. Grenfell) would probably ask. He would perhaps enquire, whether any attempt had been made, in negociating the late loan, to carry into effect a clause contained in the Act of the 23d of his Majesty, for appropriating part of the growing produce of the sinking fund to the service of the year. In answer to this he had to observe, that all the parties who bid for the loan, with the exception of one gentleman, were averse to that proceeding. And looking to this general concurrence of opinion, it was thought that a better bargain could be procured by agreeing to the suggestion, than if any opposition were made to it; because, from the large amount of the loan, it was not probable that a great competition would have been produced, if, in negotiating it, they had acted under the provision contained in the clause alluded to. Finding the opinion of the contractors generally hostile to the proposition, and seeing there was no probability, that, for a loan of 18,000,000l. any other bidders would come forward, besides those who attended on the occasion, it was thought advisable to coincide in their terms, and to make the loan on the old principle. The bargain was extremely satisfactory, being very much in favour of the public. Undoubtedly, at the present moment, when this country was at peace with all the world, except America, it was natural to expect that the loan would be negociated upon favourable terms, and he was extremely happy to say, that such terms had been obtained. It was thought necessary that part of the loan should be taken in the 5 per cent. This was not popular amongst the contractors, who were much better pleased with a bargain in the 3 per cents.; it had, however, been carried into effect, and the result would be, a decrease of charge and interest, to a very considerable amount. On a casual view of the subject, this would not appear to be the case, but a little consideration would prove, that an amount of nominal capital, of not less than 4,000,000l. would be saved, by taking part of the loan in the 5 per cent. The total amount of the loan was 24,000,000l. Of which 5,500,000l. was for the service of Ireland, leaving to Great Britain a sum of 18 millions and a half. For every 100l. in money the contractors would receive a capital of 30l. navy 5 per cent.; 80l. 3 per cents. reduced; 23l. 10s. 3 per cent. consols. To avoid increasing the charge on the consolidated fund, they had, for the first time, stipulated, that instead of paying interest for the six preceding months, it should only begin to run from July next in the navy 5 per cents., and from April last in the consols. This system would produce a reduction from the 5 per cents. of 2,500,000l., and from the consols, of 1,500,000l. Calculating the loan on these terms, the interest would be found not to exceed 4l. 12s. 1d. per cent. The first dividend, being exempted from the property tax, formed a respectable bonus: and, as it was intended to meet the charge created by funding for the service of the present year, by canceling redeemed stock in the manner provided for in the last session of parliament, the necessity of burdening the consolidated fund with any additional charge would thus be avoided. The most remarkable circumstance connected with the present loan, and one which he believed had never before occurred, was the improvement which took place in the state of the funds, at a time when it was known that so large a sum of money was about to be borrowed. The actual biddings became, in consequence, so much more favourable, that almost a million of stock was saved to the public, which, if government had closed with the contractors on Wednesday last, must have been given to them. When the funds rose so high, at the period when a loan was pending, it proved the flourishing state of our public credit, and, at the same time, held out the most flattering hope, that they would continue, for the remainder of the year, equally elevated. The interest of 4l. 12s. 1d. to which were to be added the sinking fund charge, and the other incidental expences, made a total of something more than 8 per cent. It was his intention to move a resolution for cancelling an amount of stock sufficient to bear this charge; and even when that was done, not less than 50,000,000l. of surplus stock would still remain applicable to the service of the country. The right hon. gentleman then moved, "That it is the opinion of this Committee, that, towards raising the supply to be granted to his Majesty, the sum of 24,000,000l. be raised by annuities; the charges of 18,500,000l. whereof shall be defrayed by Great Britain, and of 5,500,000l. by Ireland."

wished to know, whether he was to understand that the discussion was to be deferred to a future day, or was then to be proceeded in?

said, he had no objection to hear any observations which his hon. friend might then think proper to make. When he first addressed the Committee, the House was so extremely thin, that he had suggested the propriety of postponing the discussion to some future opportunity, as a matter of convenience. A great number of members had since come in, and, if his hon. friend pleased to favour the Committee with his sentiments, he should be happy to hear them.

said he was willing to defer his observations until every subject connected with the budget was fairly before the House.

said, if there was any particular point in his statement to which his hon. friend objected, he wished him to make his observations on it at that moment. If, for instance, he was hostile to the manner in which the negociation of the loan had been conducted, he was very desirous now to hear his sentiments on the subject.

said, that what be was then about to offer to the House, should not preclude him from fully stating his opinions, when the question of the loan was more particularly under discussion. He regretted very much, that the right hon. gentleman had not applied a part, at least, of the Sinking Fund, in lowering the amount of the roan; and if any one thing surprised him more than another, it was the way in which he had accounted to the Committee for not making use of it for that purpose. His reason was, because those who came to offer for the loan were against such a proceeding—and he thought it necessary to coincide in their opinion. Now, taking the advice of those who were deeply interested in the amount of the loan, was not, in his opinion, very prudent. Men in such a situation, would act in the manner most beneficial to themselves. This maxim was very well laid down in a fable, which he recollected to have read in his early years. A town being on the point of sustaining a siege, a mason recommended stone walls, as affording the strongest protection; a carpenter was anxious that wood should be preferred; while a currier declared, that, however great the virtues of stone or wood might be, still leather was much better adapted to keep off an enemy. Now, although it was more to the interest of the public, that the loan should be 8 or 12, than 24 millions, yet it could not be expected that those who derived a great emolument from the larger sum, should express themselves in favour of the smaller. The right hon. gentleman admitted that one of the contractors thought differently from the others. He knew the hon. gentleman who had been alluded to, and no man in the country, he believed, had a greater practical knowledge of the subject than he had. His opinion, which he regretted had not been followed, was, that the plan of applying a part of the Sinking Fund to the loan of the year, would be of great service, because it would tend to raise the price of the public funds.

said, that he had procured a much better bargain, by coinciding in the terms offered by the contractors, than he could possibly have obtained, if he had adopted the system to which his hon. friend was so partial.

said, he should be very glad if an opportunity were afforded him, to examine the general state of our finances, and to learn what the peace establishment was likely to be. It was most important that the general state of the finances of Great Britain, under her new and improved situation, should be perfectly understood; and he now put in his claim, when the subject came under discussion, to state his sentiments at length.

wished to know, whether it was the intention of his Majesty's ministers to continue the property tax for the whole time it was allowable by law? He knew, by the words of the Act, that the tax would exist until the 5th of April next. The clause stated, that it should expire on the 5th of April next following the signature of a general treaty of peace. Now, the present peace having been signed after the 5th of April last, his Majesty's government would of course have the benefit of the tax until the 5th of April, 1815. They were undoubtedly extremely lucky in the time at which the treaty was signed; for, had that event taken place in March, instead of May, they could not have availed themselves of the tax after April last. Now if the right hon. gentleman meant to make use of this tax for the remainder of the term, he should not offer any observation on the wisdom or policy of the measure; but he hoped, if he did avail himself of it, for ten or eleven months longer, that he would be prepared to do without it in future. It was, in fact, a bargain between the nation and the parliament, that it should be collected only for the time specified in the Act; and, to induce the people to bear their weight of taxation with cheerfulness and good humour, that House ought to fulfil, scrupulously, the terms it had entered into with them. He, therefore, expressed his hope and wish that the property tax would not be collected after the 5th of April next.

The Resolution was then agreed to; as were also two others relative to the terms of the loan.