rose and said:

Sir; When a motion was made a few weeks ago for a committee to enquire into the state of the prisons belonging to the city of London, we were told by the hon. aldermen who represent the city in this House, speaking in a tone of confidence, and professing to speak from their own knowledge of the state and condition of the prisons alluded to, that there existed no ground whatever for such an enquiry; they told us, that whatever was wrong in their gaols arose entirely from the want of sufficient room in them for the prisoners, that the corporation of the city were engaged in building, and had almost completed, a new gaol, of large dimensions, for the reception of debtors, and that when the prisoners of this description should be removed thither from Newgate and certain other prisons, and when the space which they now occupied should be converted into accommodations for the criminals, the defects in the gaols belonging to the city would be remedied, and their arrangements, with respect to the prisoners, both debtors and criminals, would be found in every respect satisfactory.

The Committee was, however, appointed, and no person can have read the Report, which it has produced, without seeing that there are, in the prisons alluded to, many causes of complaint, which have no reference to the size and extent of the buildings, and that many evils prevail in them which will not be remedied by any addition that may be made to the space in which the prisoners are confined, evils of no trifling magnitude, which have properly attracted the attention of this House, and which call upon the legislature, with an urgency that cannot be resisted, to interfere for their correction.

The first evil which presents itself to notice in the prisons belonging to the City is, the insufficiency of the allowances to the persons confined in them; and, first, in regard to the article of food:—The prisoners receive their food in different ways. They have an allowance each of bread from the City; they have the benefit of legacies left for their use, and charitable donations, (lately formed in Newgate, into a fund, called "The Sheriff's Fund;") and they have, in four out of the five prisons, a weekly gift of meat from the sheriffs. It is, however, stated in the Report, and will not I presume be denied, that the whole quantity of food received by them, from these different sources of supply, would not be sufficient properly to support life, either in the debtors or criminals, if they were not assisted by their friends.

The meat given by the sheriffs to each gaol is always sent in the same quantity, without any consideration of the number of persons who may at that time be in the prison. It is stated by Mr. Newman, the keeper of Newgate, that no instance has occurred in that gaol of there not being prisoners enough to consume this meat, but it often happens, when the gaol is crowded, that there are more prisoners, of that poorer class in which it is distributable, than can each receive a share of it; and, in that case, the distribution is regulated by the turnkeys, whose discretion is to determine to which of the individuals, confined in the same yard, this dole shall be dealt out, and from which of them, as appearing to be least necessitous, it shall be withheld.

There is, however, one class of prisoners, to whose situation, on the head of food, I wish particularly to call the attention of the House. I mean the persons committed to the Giltspur-street Computer to take their trial on criminal charges. These persons (upon whose guilt or innocence, it will be remembered, their country has yet to pronounce) have, for all their sustenance, 10 ounces of bread per day, and 6lbs. of potatoes per week; and, by a most inconsiderate arrangement, the allowances of bread are given out but once in two days, so that if the prisoner shall be betrayed by his appetite into a full meal on the first day, he must fast on the second: and if he has the ill fortune to come into prison upon the day on which the bread is given out, and after the hour of delivery, he will be without food for eight-and-forty hours. When a crime has been committed, the persons upon whom the suspicion of guilt attaches are most commonly found among the poor and the friendless, and it is mere mockery to say of a person of this description, whose prison allowance is inadequate to his support, that he may purchase what he pleases for himself, or receive supplies from his friends. But if a party committed for trial has the means of supplying himself with food, or can prevail upon others to lend him assistance, with what colour of justice can he be called upon to provide for his own maintenance in prison? His confinement, and the circumstance of his being taken from his daily labour, from the ordinary pursuit, or occupation, by which he earns his livelihood, are hardships of which he cannot properly complain; they are necessary for the ends of justice; they are incident to the situation in which he stands, as a person under accusation; but it is not necessary for the ends of justice that he should be subjected to the additional hardship of being obliged to maintain himself, either by making away with his own little property, or by taxing, for that purpose, the kindness of his friends; the friends of a prisoner committed for trial will often find ample room for the exercise of their liberality in the wants of an unfortunate wife and family, deprived by his confinement of their usual means of subsistence.

It does not appear that there is any regular allowance of clothing in the city gaols, even to the criminals confined for a long period in Newgate; the allowance of bedding, given only to the poorest prisoners, consists of two rugs. In a prison like Newgate, in which, from the fear of fire, the use of straw cannot be permitted, prisoners who must sleep on the boards, with nothing to put under or over them but a rug, will of course sleep in their clothes, and the circumstance of a prisoner's constantly continuing night and day in the same dress, especially in the case of persons who have no change of linen, is very inconsistent with that degree of cleanliness which ought to he observed in a prison, not only as essential to health, but as having no slight influence upon moral habits. Another grievance, connected with the insufficiency of the allowances to prisoners, is, the custom of garnish.

Garnish is a payment made by a prisoner on his first entrance into gaol, exacted by his fellow prisoners, as his contribution to a common fund, out of which are in general provided certain articles wanted for the use of the prison.

When a prisoner has not the means of satisfying this demand, he is persecuted, and vexed, and annoyed in various ways; he is driven from the fire, not suffered to come near it even for the purpose of cooking his victuals, he has his clothes taken from him; to use Mr. Newman's phrase, "he has tricks played him," in short he is subject to various indignities, more easily conceived than described, and to a degree of ill treatment to which the circumstance of his not having a shilling in the world ought not to render him liable.

states, that, in his opinion a small addition to the prisoner's allowance, with a positive prohibition of this practice of taking garnish, would put an end, in the City prisons, to this disgraceful custom: which, though I believe it has in former times been prevalent in almost all the prisons of this country, has for some time ceased to exist in those which are under proper regulation.

While the poorer prisoners are thus inadequately supplied with the necessaries of life, those, even on the criminal side of Newgate, who may have a command of money, are allowed indulgencies, which ought not to be suffered in a prison. The criminal prisoner, the felon under sentence of transportation, the convict who has been condemned to death, but whose sentence is respite, may each purchase in Newgate as much wine and beer as he pleases, with this single restriction, that he must not have more than one pot of beer or one bottle of wine at one time in his possession; to this I must add that intoxication is not deemed an offence. If, indeed, it breaks out into acts of riot and disorder, then the whole ward, in which it has so shewn itself, is punished, by the general exclusion of the friends of all the prisoners from that division of the gaol; but if the drunken man shall not create disturbance, his drunkenness is not considered as deserving of notice, nor is any punishment annexed to it. No person can wonder that the vice of drinking prevails in Newgate, under these circumstances, even among those who come there with sober habits, when it is considered how very strong must be the temptation to men in prison, unhappy and unoccupied, to drown the recollection of the past, and to lose, for a season, the prospect of the future in the temporary oblivion produced by liquor.

There is no discipline of any kind in Newgate. When the keeper, Mr. New. man, was examined upon this point, before the Committee on Penitentiary-houses, in 1811, he told us that pockets were frequently picked in the prison. He says the same now. When asked whether cards and dice are allowed, he says, "they are neither allowed nor prevented." When the members of the Committee, which has just reported, visited Newgate, while we were on the roof of the building to which strangers are generally taken, in the first instance, to have a full view of the prison, our attention was attracted to a battle in one of the yards below; a battle between two prisoners in irons, naked to the waist, each attended by a second, and sitting on his second's knee, after each round, with as much regularity as could be observed in any of those contests of which we sometimes see an account in the newspapers. I put it to the recollection of the hon. members who were then present, whether this disgraceful scene was very speedily terminated; the battle was not interrupted by the turnkeys below, it was stopped by the voice of Mr. Newman calling out from the top of the prison, by the orders of one of the aldermen present, a member of our Committee: there are, I know, some who think that there is no great harm in allowing prisoners to settle their own disputes and differences in this way, but I must desire those who entertain this opinion, to recollect what various descriptions of persons are confined together in a prison, and particularly in New-gate, from the old offender, who, hardened by a long course of guilt, glories in the number and magnitude of his crimes, to him, who, overwhelmed with shame at the detection of a first offence, comes into prison dispirited and broken hearted; separated, perhaps, by the disgrace that has fallen upon him, from respectable friends and connections, with whom he has formerly lived, but not prepared to pass over at once into the society of those of a different character, and shrinking with disgust from the advances of the vicious and the profligate. How often must prisoners meet in Newgate who have an old grudge against each other; confederates, perhaps, on some former occasions, one of whom has incurred the resentment of the others by not having been prepared to step as deep in guilt as his companions, and to join with them in some daring act of outrage. It must not unfrequently happen that men may meet in Newgate one of whom has given information, or even testimony, against the other. It ought not to be permitted, and it is not allowed in any gaol which is properly managed, that prisoners should offer personal violence to each other.

One main cause of the want of discipline and good order in the City gaols is, the manner in which the gaolers are paid, viz. by a salary and allowances given generally for the management of the prison, out of which they are to find such assistants as they may think necessary. It is obvious that this mode of payment affords no security to the public that the assistants will either be sufficient in number or of a description sufficiently respectable to preserve good order; the contract with the gaoler is made for the safe custody of the person, for that he is responsible, but discipline forms no part of the bargain, and is, therefore, not likely to be much attended to.

The next circumstance on which I have to observe is, the existence of what is called the Master's-side in Newgate. I admit that persons are often committed to prison who are entitled, from their education or former habits and situation in life, to be separated, or differently treated, from others who are confined for similar offences to those of which they are suspected or convicted; and I do not object to the State-side of the prison, in which persons of this description are placed, though it is obvious that even there the rents of the rooms should not form a part of the emolument of the gaoler. But in the Master's-side are placed together, as constituting a more respectable class of prisoners, all those committed either to take their trial, or for punishment, fines, transports, respites, in short criminal prisoners of every description (with the single exception of prisoners waiting for execution) who can pay an entrance fee of 13s. 6d. and 2s. 6d. a week to the gaoler for a bed; the practice of thus breaking down for money the distinction between different classes of prisoners, is not only contrary to propriety, but it is a violation of the declared will of the legislature—the 31st Geo. 3, which directs, that all convicts under sentence of transportation, who are kept in gaol, shall be kept separate, as far as may be, from all other offenders except felons; makes no exception in favour of persons who can pay 2s. 6d. a week to the gaoler. How often must these payments be made by the highwayman or the house-breaker, out of the plunder which he has taken from the public before his conviction; how often out of money supplied by accomplices out of doors, furnishing the prisoner with these small sums through fear that he might otherwise be tempted to impeach his former confederates, or betray the secrets of the gang.

The only other observations with which I shall trouble the House, upon this part of the subject, relate to the manner in which the religious duties are performed in these prisons. I know that some gentlemen will think it idle to mention religion in connection with the prisons of London, and particularly with Newgate. I entertain a very different opinion on this subject. There is no spot upon this earth in which the admonitions and consolations of religion are so much wanted, or in which they are so likely to be efficacious, as in a well regulated prison. I am satisfied that there are many persons in confinement who now endeavour to drive away care by gambling and drinking, who would receive with gratitude, particularly on their first entrance into prison, the notice of a respectable clergyman, especially if he were to mix with his advice and instruction those good offices, which, if he were disposed to devote a portion of his time to the interests of the prisoners, he would have opportunities enough of rendering to them; such a man would find himself able, in many instances, to improve sorrow for present suffering into permanent repentance.

The Committee examined the chaplains of four of the gaols to which their enquiry was extended; in the fifth, the Borough Compter, there is no chapel or chaplain, and it does not appear that any religious duties are performed there. In the other prisons divine service is regularly performed. In Newgate, however, the want of a clerk is found very inconvenient, and the congregation is represented as disorderly; it is observable that none of the keepers of these prisons are in the habit of attending. chapel; if it is asked how it happens that men, who appear to be on other points attentive to their duties, should fail in the discharge of this not unimportant part of their duty, I believe the true answer to be, that no person in authority has ever enquired or cared whether they were at chapel or not, and that they prefer, as matter of choice, to go to church with their families, rather than to attend divine service with the convicts. The chaplains of Ludgate, and of the Poultry and Giltspur-street Compters, speak of their communications out of chapel with the prisoners as having been useful, but one of these gentlemen is speaking of the past rather than of the present time, for he is now above seventy years of age, he resides at a distance of fifteen miles from the prison, and he is afflicted with infirmities, which make it impossible for him to remain at night in London, though he comes up to perform the Sunday duty. The ordinary of Newgate appears to consider his duties to be limited to the performance of divine service in the chapel, and to his attendance upon the prisoners under sentence of death. He states in express terms, that he "knows nothing of the state of morals in the gaol," that it is not in his instructions from the City to attend the infirmary, and that he "never knows that any prisoners have been sick until he gets a warning to attend their funeral."

During the visit of the Committee to Newgate, to which I have already alluded, seeing several boys of a tender age, from nine years upwards, whom the considerate humanity of Mr. Newman had separated from the other offenders, I had the curiosity to ask whether they were acquainted with the chaplain of the gaol; they answered that they knew him well, spoke with gratitude of the pains he took to instruct them, and shewed articles of clothing with which they had been supplied by his bounty. I happened to observe to some one who stood near me, that the ordinary had done himself great injustice in his evidence, having expressly told the Committee that he did not consider the instruction of the boys in New-gate as a part of his duty. When I was informed by one of the turnkeys that the person of whom these boys spoke, and concerning whom they naturally supposed me to be enquiring, was not the ordinary; and I found that the individual, for whose kindness these boys were thus grateful, was one of those officious persons whom the ordinary describes with some anger in his evidence as intruding themselves impertinently into the gaol, and "cramming the prisoners"(to use Dr. Ford's own phrase) "with prayers and preaching." Before I quit this subject I should mention, in justice to the city of London, that the salary and emoluments of their chaplains are upon a much more liberal scale than those of the chaplains in any gaol with which I am acquainted; the evil is, that no notice is taken of the manner in which the duties are performed.

There is one of the prisons belonging to the City which stands upon a different footing from the rest, namely, the Borough Compter, in which are confined debtors (principally those in execution by process from the court of conscience) and persons detained for a day or two on criminal charges, before they are fully committed to some other prison to take their trial. This gaol is locally situated in Southwark, and is under the management of the bailiff of the Borough.

The disgraceful state in which this prison was previous to the month of March last, when directions were given to repair it, may be seen in the Report on the table. In April last the allowances to the prisoners, particularly the allowance of food, which consisted before that time of nothing more than a two-penny loaf per day, received a considerable addition, by an order made by the lord mayor, in consequence of the examination which had taken place before the Committee of this House. There is, however, one material evil which has not been corrected, and which, I therefore presume, it is not in the power of the City to correct without the assistance of the legislature; the gaoler has no salary, but is remunerated for his trouble by an appointment to another office, the execution of which is not consistent with a due performance of his duties as gaoler.

I come now to the consideration of the remedy which it may be proper to apply to the state of these gaols. It would be difficult to enter in an act of parliament into the detail of regulations to be observed in several distinct prisons, containing within their walls many different descriptions of prisoners, and I am therefore disposed to limit my view, upon the present occasion, to the establishment of an improved system of superintendence and inspection. The appointment of the officers of the gaol, (with the concurrence, I presume, of the sheriff, in the case of the keepers) and the power of ordering supplies for the use of the prisoners, are in the court of aldermen; the repairs of the buildings are executed under the direction of a committee of the common council, known by the name of the committee of city lands; the aldermen visit the gaols individually as magistrates, and occasionally give verbal directions there.

I have been told, that this Bill is unnecessary, for that an arrangement may be made in the court of aldermen for three of their body to visit these gaols for three months, who may then retire, to be replaced by three others in their turn, so that all the aldermen may execute this duty of visiting the prisons in rotation. I cannot say that I see in this arrangement any promise of material improvement in the state of the gaols. To say nothing of other defects in this scheme, what uniformity of management can be expected in these prisons, if all those who superintend them shall be changed every three months, and shall then remain disconnected from them for the next year or two before they return again into office?

I am satisfied that the prisons of London will never be on a proper footing, unless the City shall be compelled to manage them by a committee, appointed for that special object;—meeting, for that purpose, on the spot, (at least at the principal gaols) from time to time,—with a secretary to keep regular minutes and records of its proceedings,—appointing and removing (with the concurrence of the sheriffs as far as may be necessary) the officers of the prisons—With full authority to order all necessary repairs and supplies of every kind, and, in a word, to exercise all the powers and functions now vested in any part of the corporation on this subject.

The nomination of such a committee would at least give the public the satisfaction of having some persons responsible, in character, for the good conduct of the gaols. If a letter should be addressed to such a committee by a respectable individual, (like the late Mr. Neild) who, on visiting one of the city prisons, should find the prisoners in a state of distress and misery calling for relief, such a letter must be noticed by a committee of this description, which was not the case when Mr. Neild wrote to the lord mayor in 1804, giving him a detailed account of the then state of the Borough compter. Such a committee would be able, in all cases of emergency, to act without delay; if for instance it should ever happen that a vessel, laden with rugs for the use of the prisoners, should be frozen up in a canal on its passage, such a committee would not think it necessary to wait until a thaw should come to set free the vessel, (diminishing possibly at the same time, in some degree, the occasion for the rugs) but would probably find means to procure a supply of bedding in London before the end of the cold weather. If a committee of this description had existed some years ago, it is more than probable that many glaring defects in the construction of the new gaol, now building, would have been avoided.

It only remains for me to state of what description of persons, in my view of the subject, this committee should be composed; it would of course be appointed by the same authority by which the other committees for conducting the business of the City are nominated.

I hope it will not be imputed to me that I cast any censure upon the aldermen of the city of London, or intend any disrespect to them, when I say that, in my judgment, this committee should consist, in part, of other persons besides the members of their body, who may be placed in it. The aldermen are twenty-six in number, they are in general gentlemen much engaged in the active pursuits and business of life, on their own private account, and they have, as we all know, in their public character, very important and arduous duties to perform. The extension of the circle of those from amongst whom this committee should be chosen, by making the deputies and common councilmen of the several wards, consisting of two hundred and thirty-six individuals, eligible to sit upon it, would very much increase the facility of procuring an efficient committee.

This is the general outline of the plan which has suggested itself to my mind upon the present occasion; I do not, however, doubt but that any Bill which shall be brought in, upon a matter of such general interest as that now under consideration, receive improvement in its progress through the House.

I trust the House will not refuse to entertain a Bill upon this subject. The prisoners, whose condition I seek to improve, are not all criminal; a large proportion of them, the debtors, and some at least of those committed for trial, are only unfortunate; of such as are criminal, all have not offended in the same degree; and even those who are the least entitled to compassion, those who, by the magnitude of their offences, have forfeited their lives to the law, have nevertheless a right to receive from it in prison, until it shall exact the forfeit, sufficient sustenance and protection.

I can hardly be persuaded, notwithstanding what I have heard on this subject, that the hon. aldermen of the city of London in this House, will oppose the bringing in of a Bill for the better management of their prisons, which will not go to take them out of the hands of the city; they cannot, surely, be jealous of lodging in one of their own committees the power of incurring such expences, on their behalf, as may be necessary to support these prisons on a proper footing. It cannot be the wish of the representatives of the city of London that this great and opulent corporation, with large funds al its disposal for public purposes, the founder of many noble charities, encouraging by liberal donations almost every useful and benevolent institution which has risen up of late years in its neighbourhood, should in its gaols alone be fount wanting, and should continue to be far behind the rest of England (which I maintain it now is) in the treatment of its prisoners, and in the general management of its prisons.—The hon. gentleman concluded with moving, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the better management of the prisons belonging to the city of London."

thought the hon. gentleman was not borne out in the statement he had made. He wondered much at some parts of it. How were prisoners to be treated? Were they to he indulged with luxuries? Should that be the case, the prisons would be more crowded than at present by idle fellows coming there for the purpose of living well, The hon. member had said, the alderman had opposed enquiry. He for one had supported it. The corporation saw there wanted amendment, and they were endeavouring to effect it. When the new prison was finished, the others would be greatly relieved, which were now too much crowded. The hon. gentleman had objected that no clothing was allowed to the prisoners. He would ask, was it the practice in any prison to do so? If it were, the gaols would never be empty. He was convinced many needy rogues would commit offences on purpose that they might get into prison and lie well clothed. Garnish money he thought should he done away with altogether. As to discipline, what discipline could they employ? They could not flog them if they were disorderly; all they could do was to suspend their allowances, which was always done. If the magistrates of London were not worthy to be entrusted with the charge of the prisoners, they were not worthy of their situations.

could not resist paying the unfeigned tribute of his admiration to his hon. friend for the manner in which he had brought this subject, forward, and, as a member of the committee, completely confirmed every tiling he had stated. He allowed that measures of improvement had been adopted since the report of the committee; but this was the best argument for the Bill, lest when all remembrance of the present discussion was over, things might relapse into their original state.

stated, that at one time the gaol of Newgate was so much crowded, in consequence of particular circumstances, that it was impossible the prisoners could be properly accommodated. Had the hon. mover waited till the new prison was finished, and enquired into its regulations, he would have had no cause for dissatisfaction. The hon. alderman seemed to wish that the Bill should for the present be postponed.

said, that the committee appointed to enquire into the state of the prisons, had found that there was a great want both of food and of fuel in Newgate, but that the management of the keeper "was entitled to commendation. To certain questions, put by some members of the committee, it was answered, that the prisoners were not punished when they got drunk, provided they were quiet; and if they were riotous, their friends were excluded: that almost all the prisoners except those extremely hardened, were averse to he present when the condemned sermon was preached, and those who were religiously disposed were kept away from attendance in the chapel for fear of exposure. The hon. gentleman expressed himself clearly in favour of the Bill.

contended, that as the jail was calculated to hold only 400 persons, the presence in it of near double that number must be attended with some disorder. He had no difficulty in saying, that in his humble opinion, as soon as the new jail should be completed, that disorder would be removed. He had himself stated to the hon. gentleman who had moved for leave to bring in this Bill, the extreme anxiety of the court of aldermen to do every thing in their power to remedy the evils complained of. It was their intention to order that all prisoners discharged by the magistrates, or discharged in consequence of no Bill having been found against them, should be exempt from the payment of fees; that regular reports should be made by the sheriffs to the lord mayor, of the state of the prison; that the custom of garnish should be abolished; that the keepers of the prisons should be paid handsomely in money, & c. He was persuaded that the keepers of all the prisons were very solicitous to prevent intoxication from taking place in them. Persons attempting to introduce spirits were heavily fined. As for the body out of which the hon. gentleman proposed that the committee of management should be appointed, he entertained the highest respect for them, but he asked what reason there appeared to be for suspecting that those to whom that duty was at present entrusted would not punctually fulfil it? If the committee would but point out what they thought ought to be done, he pledged himself that the court of aldermen would do every thing that was right and proper on the subject.

observed, that if the magistrates, with their present authority, were competent to remedy the evils complained of, it was strange they had not done so before the presentation of the report of the committee. He denied the probability that the new jail would remedy those evils. It appeared to him to be very inferior to many buildings in the country of a similar description. It was not even fire proof, and was so confined, that it seemed intended to prevent, rather than to admit, the free circulation of air.

declared, that the feeling and eloquence of his hon. friend had made an impression on his mind, and evidently also on the mind of the House, that would not speedily be effaced. He had heard nothing on the other side which had not confirmed his opinion of the absolute necessity of some legislative measure.

would not oppose the motion, although he was persuaded that the report was overcharged.

related the history of a visit which he had paid to Newgate five years ago, at which period great disorders prevailed in that prison. He thought there was great ground for parliamentary interference; and, adverting to the new jail, condemned the mode of its construction, and expressed his hope that before it was opened, the House would appoint a committee to examine into its fitness, and into the way in which the money had been expended in its erection.

although he approved of the Bill, highly applauded the liberal manner in which the four members for the city had met the discussion. A great remedy for the evils complained of would be found in the diminution of the number of prisoners, which the restoration of peace would naturally occasion.

did not think that his hon. friend had duly considered the effects of peace upon the morals of the country. The object of the present Bill was not censure, but reformation; As to general pledges that might be held out, experience had shewn how they had been redeemed. There was a resolution of the common council in 1810, prohibiting the exaction of fees from prisoners who had been acquitted, which resolution had never been enforced, nor a single step taken to enforce it. There was also another resolution against lunatics being confined in Newgate, and four lunatics were at present confined in it. A larger gaol would not cure many of the evils; as, for example, the conduct of the ordinary of Newgate, in the discharge, or rather in the neglect, of his duty, which discovered a total want of feeling and principle. His examination before the committee was more like the boasting of a buffoon than the gravity of his sacred character. Such conduct ought to have been known to the city magistrates, and to have met with merited reprehension. Among the answers which he gave to the committee, when he was asked about the state of morals in the prison, he said he knew nothing about it. He was asked whether he did not attend the prisoners when they were sick, for the purpose of giving religious consolation? His answer was, that he never knew when they were sick, and was not called upon to attend until their funeral. Such answers appeared to shew a depravity of morals, that was more like to injure than to improve the morals of a prison.

said that the court of aldermen had never seen the report till this day. He must confess, that some things which were now stated from the report deserved the greatest reprehension, and would doubtless have met with it, if they had been known to exist.

gave his thanks to the hon. mover who had brought this question forward in so able a manner. The prison in Southwark, also, required much more attention than had hitherto been paid to it. It seemed from its situation to have escaped the attention both of the magistrates of Surrey and of the city magistrates. Representations had been formerly made upon this subject, but they were all ineffectual.

Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.

and said, that pursuant to an intimation which he had given last week of postponing the discussion of the Treaty of Peace with France to an early day in the ensuing one, he should now propose, if it met with the approbation of the House, to fix next Thursday week for that discussion. He was anxious not to defer it to a later period, as he was unwilling to interpose any thing which might protract the session to an inconvenient length.

observed that, considering the very extraordinary state of dissipation, (he did not use the word invidiously) in which the metropolis was at present, he wished to submit it to the noble lord, whether it would not be better to postpone, not only the particular discussion in question, but every one of importance, till all the necessary honours had been shewn to the illustrious personages now among us. He understood that they were likely, after Monday next, to take their departure; but then there was to be the grand review at Portsmouth, which he. supposed would draw away many members of that House. In short, what with dinners one day, suppers another, and processions another, it was hardly possible to calculate upon such an attendance of members as might be desirable for the discussion of great public questions, and he would therefore suggest the propriety of postponing them all over next week; While he was up, he would put another question to the noble lord, to save hint the the trouble of rising a second time. He wished to know whether it was the noble lord's intention to produce a most extraordinary Treaty, which he had seen in a paper of that day, concluded with the person who, it appeared, was still to be called the emperor Napoleon, and to which this country had been a party? With regard to the other Treaty, which he had before alluded to, as he was actuated by no spirit of idle curiosity, but a desire to possess the fullest information in making up his mind upon the merits of the peace itself, he should certainly move an address to the Prince Regent for its production. He feared that in doing so, it would prove but a mere matter of form, though feeling it to be his duty, it certainly was his intention to persevere.

expressed his willingness to postpone the discussion, and fixed Monday week as the day for going into it. With respect to the particular treaty alluded to by the hon. member, he certainly had no objection to producing so much of it, both as to what had been rejected, and what acceded to, as we had any concern with, it being no treaty of ours.

rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill, for the better regulation of army prize money, and to provide for the payment of unclaimed and forfeited shares to Chelsea Hospital. He preceded his motion, by urging the necessity at the present, more than at any former period, of carefully securing to the soldier the emoluments which he had so well earned and so gloriously won. He enumerated the difficulties which often impeded the real owner in the prosecution of his claims, owing to the many unaccredited agency channels through which the applications were made. Many regulations, however, had been made to correct those interpositions, in proof of which he had to state, that since 1309, the paymaster general had received from various prize agents 365,000l. out of which 28,024l had been applied to several claimants, and 104 000l. refunded in a similar manner—a balance remained of 163.000l. which was vested in the 3 per cent. consols, in Exchequer Bills, and in the Bank of England. One of the new regulations which he meant to submit was, that of making substituted agents answerable to the proper authorities, as well as their principals. Another was, to require at stated times, from the registrar of the Admiralty and Vice-Admiralty-court, a report of the sums in their respective hands, and of Chelsea Hospital the same. Also, that all the several acts hitherto passed for those regulations should be consolidated into one, with a view to their more perfect elucidation, and for the purpose of at once giving to the subject the consideration to which it was entitled.

suggested a clause for the security of those sums which, though not hitherto claimed, perhaps owing to some impracticability, would yet now be called for on the return of a number of persons at the termination of the war.

had no objection; his only object being the better security to the public, of whatever amount remained at a certain time unreclaimed.

begged to submit the necessity of establishing an office in Ireland for the adjustment of this branch of the public service: an intermediate and authentic regulation of this kind was actually necessary. To his own knowledge considerable mal-practices prevailed, owing to the ignorant confidence of poor persons, who had placed their papers in the hands of designing men, who not only recovered sums of money, which they afterwards withheld, but also detained the papers to the great injury of persons so confiding in them.

concurred in the right hon. baronet's observations.

enquired whether any relief was intended for those persons who were unacquainted with the particular description of the captures in which they had served.

could not see how it was possible to effect such an object, if the parties were unprepared with the necessary information.

observed, that in the sea service he understood a regulation of that description existed; therefore why not extend it to the land?

earnestly hoped that the treasurer of the navy would not allow the present session to pass without the introduction of a Bill to regulate West India prizes. A Bill was already in preparation for that purpose, which was not rendered less necessary by the peace.

informed the hon. member, he hoped on Monday to be enabled to meet his wishes on this point, particularly with reference to some regulations for Barbadoes and Antigua.

Leave was given to bring in the Bill.

begged to postpone, until Monday next, the consideration of the report on this Bill.

suggested the necessity, in the absence of many members, of deferring the consideration until the next session.

said, the Bill had been introduced last year, and had been amply considered in a committee up stairs, who were unanimous for its adoption. It had also been printed and transmitted widely throughout the country. If the hon. member really knew the horrible and barbarous cruelties which were inflicted in those asylums, he would unite with him for the most speedy application of a remedy; he was, therefore, against postponing the Bill beyond Monday.

lamented his inability to have attended the committee, in which his right hon. friend (Mr. Rose) had so much distinguished himself by the introduction of this measure to the consideration of parliament.

was strongly in favour of an immediate discussion, and complimented the right hon. gentleman upon his diligent pursuit of so humane an object. The Bill was actually necessary. He had closely inspected several of the lunatic asylums, and had ocular demonstration of the abusive practices which, in many of them, prevailed. It was high time that those neglected places should be visited by proper inspectors. In York, particularly, great abuse was apparent. The hon. member concluded by hoping, that no exemption from visitation, such as that claimed for Bethlem hospital, should under any circumstances be allowed.

when he wished for delay, begged to express his assent to the principle of the Bill, and also to admit his sense of its necessity.

gave the fullest credit to the right hon. framer of the Bill, whose exertions and candour in uniting with others in the pursuit of this object did him great honour. He was however free to say that the Bill was not fit to pass in its present shape; at the same time a sweeping condemnation of it was wholly unnecessary. The hon. member proceeded to state, that he had visited a vast number of those asylums; he was glad when allusion had been made to an exemption claimed by one of the principal ones in the metropolis, (Bethlem) the name was mentioned, because it prevented the possibility of any imputation attaching to another great establishment (St. Luke's) of which he was a governor, and which he could assure the House was managed throughout all its departments in the best possible manner. It was but candid to add, that in many of the private houses for the reception of this unfortunate class of society, great humanity prevailed. It became therefore necessary to shield from inculpation those who did their duty in an exemplary manner, in contradistinction to those who had acted with unnecessary harshness. Many evils were already removed under the prospect of this Bill; and although in some cases an officious interference with the experience of an establishment might follow the adoption of the unrestricted right of visitation, its operation would yet be salutary; and he would recommend to the governors of St. Luke's, the best regulated establishment in the empire, to give no objection upon that point, lest the precedent should be drawn into an injurious operation.

was for postponing the Bill until next session: it already had done much good, and would still effect more; they could therefore safely await more ample information.

concurred in the praise which the right hon. mover of the Bill had so fairly earned. He agreed with his hon. friend upon the proper statement of the management of St. Luke's; there was yet some room for improvement, though no abuse certainly existed; the want of classification, the mode of confinement, & c. were open to amelioration. The Petition from Bethlem, to say the least of it, was injudicious. Great abuse and mismanagement certainly occurred in that and many other establishments, which ought not to remain unredressed. He alluded, in strong terms of reprobation, to the case of a man in Bedlam, who had attempted the life of his keepers twice, and who had been in consequence confined to his bed in irons, for 13 years, though he had long and frequent lucid intervals. In answer to a question from Mr. Alderman Smith, Mr. W. Smith said, that the man was confined with an iron ring round his neck, with another round his body, fastening him to his bed, and with the same round his wrists and legs.

spoke in favour of the measure, and thought that none of those places of confinement should be exempted from inspection.

confirmed the statement of Mr. W. Smith respecting the case of Norris, and observed that though he had thus confined for 13 years, yet, in consequence of the visit of himself and some other members of the House of Commons to Bedlam, the greater part of his irons were struck off, retaining nothing but a collar round the neck. He would ask, therefore, if that iron frame in which he was confined, was found to be unnecessary, immediately some enquiries were made about it, why it had been retained so long? He had also paid a visit to St. Luke's, the system of which he considered as greatly superior to that of Bedlam, and seemed to him to approach perfection as nearly, perhaps, as any system of that kind could.

The report was then ordered to be taken into further consideration on Monday next.