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Commons Chamber

Volume 28: debated on Thursday 16 June 1814

House of Commons

Thursday, June 16, 1814.

Poor Settlement Bill

moved the order of the day for taking the report of the Poor Settlement Bill into further consideration.

wished the hon. baronet to postpone the farther consideration of the Bill till next session. It went to alter the whole law of settlement, and yet it was only this morning that it was put into the hands of members. A more imperfect Bill he had never seen. It went materially to affect the agricultural labourer, and was fraught with inhumanity to the poorer classes in general. There were two or three good clauses in the Bill, but these, though without the direct sanction of the legislature, were already carried into effect by the county magistrates. He wished the Bill to be circulated for their inspection and approbation. Time was absolutely necessary for a further consideration of its provisions. He should, therefore move that it be taken into farther consideration this day three months.

approved of going into the discussion of the Bill. He thought if the last speaker had had more time to examine its contents, he would have entertained a better opinion of it.

did not think it necessary to let the Bill stand over till next session, but he thought some farther time for consideration would be advantageous.

was for postponing the consideration of the Bill altogether till next session. In two or there weeks most of the country gentlemen, who generally took the onus of such questions upon them, would be out of town. He thought the hon. baronet's Bill had met with great lenity from the House, it had been so often altered as to be scarcely known for the same Bill, and in its present state it had not been twelve hours in the possession of the House.

thought the term lenity had been exceeding ill applied to the treatment of the hon. baronet's Bill. He was well entitled to the gratitude of the House. Though all the clauses in it might not be equally beneficial, yet the good so far preponderated over that which was doubtful, as to induce him to vote for it in its present state. There were two clauses in the Bill of which he entirely approved, that which prevented the removal of paupers as soon as they became chargeable to the parish, and also the provision for affording medical assistance. The clause which raised the rate of settlement from 10 to 20l. appeared to him the most objectionable, as well as contrary to the general spirit of the Bill, every thing in which tended to facilitate the settlement of the poor.

objected to the double clause relating to settlement, which he thought would lead to much litigation. He agreed in what had fallen from the last speaker respecting the increased rate of settlement.

agreed with the hon. and learned gentleman (sir S. Romilly) in his objections to the clause altering the rate of settlement. He approved of the Bill, which he thought would materially diminish the poors' rates of the country.

rose for the purpose of expressing his general approbation of the Bill. He was surprised at the terms in which it had been spoken of by an hon. member. He suggested the propriety of bringing forward the different provisions of the Bill, point by point, as there were several, he was confident, which would meet the unanimous concurrence of the House. One in particular was that relating to medical aid. If, however, the hon. baronet pressed the general question to a division, he should certainly divide with him.

did not see why those parts of the Bill which seemed to be universally approved of, should not now pass into a law.

confessed that he should have felt overwhelmed by the many objections which were at first made to his Bill, if he had not been cheered by the encouragement and approbation of other gentlemen, who had spoken later in the debate, and for whose opinions he felt the highest deference. He was by their concurrence convinced that his bill was not quite so stupid or absurd as it had been represented, and that he was not guilty of the precipitation, or of something worse than precipitation, of which he had been accused, in bringing it forward. He was, indeed, induced to hope, that he might be indulged in going into the Committee on the Bill. If there were objectionable parts in it, they might there be thrown out. There were two features in it, which he thought highly important— 1. The clause which ordered temporary relief without removal; and 2. That which made the real parish of the pauper responsible for the reimbursement of the expences incurred by that, in which he immediately resided. These two clauses alone would prevent a great deal of suffering to the poor, and a great deal of expence to the parishes in litigation and removals, and he could not consent to defer the benefits which he promised himself in these respects for nine or ten months longer. The frequent alterations in the Bill, of which an hon. member had complained rather harshly, did not go to affect any one of its objects or principles, but were merely technical. After the struggle he had made, after the time and pains which he had bestowed upon the subject, which had occupied his mind night and day, he trusted he should not be thought guilty of stupid pertinacity in adhering to his original motion, or even if he failed in that to-night, he should never lose sight of his object as long as he had the honour of a seat in that House.

After a few words from Mr. Shaw Le Fevre, in the way of explanation, disclaiming any intentional severity in what he had said, sir E. Brydges consented to withdraw all those clauses from the Bill to which any objection had been made.

upon the understanding that the objectionable clauses were to be omitted, withdrew his amendment. The original question was then put and carried in the affirmative, upon which.

thought that before they went into the committee, the House should be informed what clauses it was intended to retain and what to dispense with. It would be better, he apprehended, to leave out every clause to which any objection had been made. The last clause, being entirely foreign to the Bill, would of course be omitted.

said that he certainly meant to withdraw all the clauses which had been deemed exceptionable, but reserving to himself the right to press the omitted clauses, at any future period, upon the attention of parliament.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee, when the several objectionable clauses were withdrawn, and various amendments suggested with respect to the remaining ones, some of which were adopted. The Report was forthwith received, the further consideration of it fixed for Friday se'nnight, and the Bill ordered to be printed.

Princess of Wales

seeing in his place an hon. gentleman who had given notice of a motion for tomorrow relative to her royal highness the Princess of Wales, begged leave, in the name of a noble friend of his, to say that his noble friend, understanding that it was not intended, under the present circumstances, to press any business of importance, had communicated that intention to many hon. members of the House, and he, therefore, begged leave to request the hon. gentleman to postpone his motion.

declared that he should be most happy if the requested delay were of an auspicious nature. He was sure, indeed, that any delay must be favourable to the object which he had in view, because the more the subject was considered, the more evident would the necessity appear for doing something to ameliorate the situation of her royal highness, by affording her an allowance more adequate to her rank, and placing her in other respects in a condition different from that in which she now found herself. He had no objection whatever to postpone his motion to Monday.

reminded the hon. gentleman that Monday was a day fixed for a motion by an hon. gentleman on the abolish ton of the slave trade. Although he need not say that he partook of the hon. gentleman's sentiments as to the hope that any delay might prove auspicious, yet he must observe, that it was a subject which would not admit of much delay. It would be highly improper to delay the motion until after the next drawing-room. He did not see why the hon. member might not take possession of Monday, that if the hon. member for Bramber should not bring forward his motion he might proceed with that of which he had given notice.

protested against postponing the motion from to-morrow. It did not appear to him to be at all necessary to the accommodation of the royal and illustrious personages now in the country, that the chief ministers of the crown should be running about with them whithersoever they went. Holidays had been given on the occasion to most of the public schools, and now it seemed a holiday was to be given to parliament. What necessity was there, because the merchants of London thought proper, very handsomely and munificently, to give a dinner to the royal strangers, that the noble lord should withhold his attendance from that House? The subject about to be brought forward by the hon. gentleman was one of the most important that for many years had been agitated in parliament, and he contended that it ought not to be treated in such a way as must render all due discussion of it impossible. On Tuesday the review at Portsmouth would take place, and after that, other occupations of a similar kind; so that if the hon. gentleman's motion was not brought on by Monday next, it must be put off until the week after next, and he should be glad to know what attendance was then to be expected in parliament.

denied having stated as a motive for postponing the motion, any engagement of his noble friend. What he had said was, that imagining no business of importance was to be discussed under the present circumstances, his noble friend had signified that understanding to many honourable persons.

thought it would be expedient to defer the discussion of the subject until the week after next. He differed altogether from his right hon. friend, in supposing that the attendance would then be thin. On the contrary, as there were so many great questions to be considered, he was persuaded that the attendance would be full.

observed, that the motion to be made by the hon. gentleman, although extremely important in its nature, was not likely to extend to such a length of discussion as that respecting the abolition of the slave trade; why not, therefore, fix it for Monday, in order that should the hon. member for Bramber not persevere in his motion, the hon. gentleman might bring his forward?

deprecated the uncertainty which would be produced by letting both the motions stand for the same day. He was happy to see the hon. member who had given notice of the motion respecting the abolition of the slave trade in his place, and he would take the liberty to intreat him to postpone his notice.

said, it certainly had been his intention to bring forward his motion on Monday. He was extremely desirous to do so, and he knew it would be exceedingly inconvenient to many hon. members if he did not. When he had given the notice he had observed, that he did not think the motion was likely to lead to much length of discussion, but that if it did, he should have no objection to adjourn it. Under these circumstances he undoubtedly wished to bring it forward; but he would be the last man in the world to stand in the way of any other arrangement which the House might deem expedient.

expressed his anxiety to meet the general wishes of the House. If by any temporary delay it were to be supposed that his motion would go off entirely, nothing on earth would tempt him to postpone it for a single day; and he would not now consent to defer it until it was distinctly understood that it should be duly discussed, unless such arrangements should happily take place as might render that discussion unnecessary.

thought that the noble lord who was in the House yesterday, when the conversation took place between the secretary at war and himself respecting the postponement of the army estimates, might have taken the opportunity of saying that which he had now sent down the right hon. gentleman to say for him. If the hon. gentleman's motion was not brought on to-morrow, it could not be brought on for a considerable time. On Monday se'nnight the treaty of peace was to be discussed. On Tuesday, after the long debate of the preceding night, not much attention could be expected to another question. For Wednesday it was well known that questions of great public importance were always fixed. He implored the hon. gentleman to press his motion to-morrow. It was the day for which he had originally given his notice; it was the day on all accounts the most proper. If the noble lord, whose request had been made by the right hon. gentleman, had, in the most distant manner, hinted that it was the intention of his Majesty's ministers to take the pleasure of his royal highness the Prince Regent on the important and interesting subject which the hon. gentleman meant to bring before the House, he should be one of the first to recommend him to abstain from his motion; but as nothing of the kind had taken place, he begged of him not to be a party to any procrastination.

said, that the hon. gentleman was master of his own notice. He must choose for himself, and make that choice known to the House.

Mr. Methuen then fixed Tuesday for his motion.