spoke as follows:—Sir, I have had much communication with the licensed Mad-houses of this town, and I owe it to the keepers of such of them as have come within my observation, to declare, that their patients are treated with the utmost tenderness and humanity. The houses, indeed, in which these unfortunate persons live, having been built for other purposes (chiefly for the use of small private families), are little calculated to promote the health or comfort of their inhabitants. I live, Sir, in a parish (I mean that of Mary-le-bone) which maintains its insane poor in a licensed house; and it is the practice of that parish, by the medical staff of their infirmary, frequently to visit them. The staff, consisting of a physician, surgeon, and apothecary, examine, every month, the insane paupers, both as to the state of their minds and of their bodily health. They see their bedrooms—they inspect their beds—and they report, in writing, to their employers, the guardians of the poor, the result of their examination. Now, Sir, I have not mentioned this circumstance, to do honour to a parish, with the management of which I am personally much connected, but I have stated it, in the hope of leading other London parishes into the practice I have described. It is, Sir, the miserable policy of many, indeed I might say of most of those parishes, to keep their poor, when mentally deranged, in their work-houses; in which, there being no other means of confinement, the unfortunate lunatic is generally consigned to; and, for a great length of time, confined in a straight waistcoat. Thus, Sir, being much aggravated, and more unskillfully treated than he would be in a mad-house, he becomes less likely to be restored to sanity of mind. The maintenance, Sir, of a pauper, in a London workhouse, costs his parish six shillings weekly—in a mad-house, the maintainance of a pauper, costs it ten shillings; and, it appears to me, that to the small difference between these two sums, the interest of one-half, at least, of the insane poor of London is perfectly sacrificed. I am sorry to say, Sir, that in all my communications with mad-houses (and they have been very frequent) I have observed, that the patients of them are very seldom visited by their relations or friends. Now surely, Sir, in the degree our feelings prompt us to turn our backs on these unhappy persons, in the same degree does our duty urge us to attend to and watch them. They are, Sir, perfectly dead to all the intercourse of social life; and worse than dead, with respect to the impression their fate leaves on the minds of their relatives and friends. When a man loses a friend, the first burst of grief being at an end, he fosters and encourages every idea that leads his mind to the recollection of his departed friend; whereas every thought, connected with insanity, is so degrading to our nature, and so humbling to our pride, that we make a point of keeping it from our minds. With these impressions, Sir, I cannot but be highly friendly to the Bill now before the House. I am sanguine enough to think that it will go a great way to secure the objects of it against improper, by which I mean unnecessary detention; and I cannot doubt but, by the visitation it imposes, it will much improve the conditions of all persons confined under insanity. Indeed, Sir, I believe that the very agitation of the Bill has had the latter effect to a considerable amount. I believe, too, Sir, that it has improved the practice of one public hospital, I mean that of Bethlem, by softening its severity towards its patients. I have, Sir, within these few weeks, seen the unfortunate maniac, Norris, who has been, I believe, more than once mentioned in this House. Finding him fastened to his bed's head by an iron collar and chain, strong enough to hold a bull or horse, I was extremely surprised to hear him express his thankfullness to his keepers, for the liberty he now enjoys. My surprise, Sir, however, soon ceased, on my learning from Norris, as well as from those about him, that he had been lately exonerated from two third parts of the iron which he had worn for 13 years past, night and day, in his bed. Now, Sir, this unfortunate maniac is rational enough to admit, as do I, that it may have been long necessary to enchain him, but he contends, as do I, that it cannot have been so completely to encase him in iron, as has been the practice for a long series of years. Now, Sir, with this fact before me, I cannot say that Bethlem is the hospital which I wish to exempt from the intended visitation. I know, Sir, that among the governors there is very much of benevolence; but, I fear, that amongst them, likewise, there has been some little apathy, to use a respectable alderman's late expression, when he spoke in Newgate, as to the sufferers within the walls of Bethlem.—I beg pardon for having trespassed so long on the House. What I have said has been offered from a sense of duty.

Mr. Alderman Smith, Mr. Bennet, sir J. Shaw, Mr. P. Carew, and Mr. Rose, expressed their opinions also in its favour; after which, the Bill was read a third time, and passed.

observed, that having seen in one of the news-papers, that a day had been appointed for putting lord Cochrane in the pillory, he wished to know, whether it was the intention of the crown to remit that part of the sentence of the court of King's-bench?

replied, that it was usual for the court to fix a day for carrying its sentence into execution. As to what the crown might be advised to do, his lordship was really not prepared to give an answer. The question had, in the ordinary course, been brought under the notice of the crown, by a Petition from one of the parties, Mr. Butt, who had solicited for mercy. That petition had been put in the regular course, and a reference had been made to the judge, after which the decision of the crown would be made. As the subject was in a train of enquiry, he thought that it would not be expedient for parliament to interfere.

said, that as the noble lord could give him no information, he would submit a motion to the House upon the subject.

added, that he should deprecate any motion, since the crown was the fountain of mercy, and the House had no jurisdiction. If the noble lord did persist, he would recommend, that the day fixed might be as late as possible, in order that in the meantime the decision of the proper authority might be made.

rejoined, that his motion would be for an address to the crown, praying, that that part of the sentence, that related to the pillory, might be mitigated, on the ground of lord Cochrane's professional services.

remarked, that it would be a delicate question, whether the professional services of lord Cochrane placed him upon a different footing to that of the other prisoners. He hoped, that a distant day would be named for the motion.

named to-morrow se'nnight.

wished to know, whether the judge's report would be made by that day?

asked, whether the cases of all the parties would be considered under Mr. Butt's petition, or whether only that of the individual, were all the cases referred to the judge?

was not prepared to give any decisive answer, but he apprehended that all the cases would be included in the consideration of the judge who tried the cause.

said, that the reference to the judge was made, that the crown might receive the requisite information. It did not necessarily follow, that the judge would give any opinion upon the propriety of remitting the sentence, that was a matter for the decision of the Crown.

noticed a previous case, where the Secretary of State had informed him, that the judge was called upon to to give an opinion.

replied, that it was true, that the judge might include his own opinion, but it was not indispensably necessary that he should do so.

said, he felt it his duty to deliver to the House his opinions on the present state of the expenditure of the army. It was to be recollected, that the estimates laid before the House were for the service of the year, from the 25th of December last to the same time in the present year. In these estimates the reductions from the sum voted for last year, were only two millions, and those eventual. Now, as far as economical arrangements in our internal system of defence could be followed, they might have been adopted as early as April last; by the reduction thus effected, a greater saving than one-eighth (which was all the reduction at present) of the whole expenditure would have been effected. If as much of zeal had been used by the government in the reduction of the expenditure of the country, at present, as they had formerly shewn of energy in proposing enlarged scales of expenditure, they would have been even more entitled than they actually were to the liberal praise of the country. When the details of the estimates presented were looked into, they would appear more objectionable; five millions were required for the foreign troops in the service of this country, and the militia. Now, on these branches alone, a saving, could have been effected, if early and effectual measures had been adopted, as great as all that which was more held out. For the staff and garrisons, volunteers, local militia, commissariat, &c. there was a charge of seven millions, on which alone there might have been a reduction of much more than two millions. As to the general officers, he agreed in the principle, that they were entitled to a larger pay than they had formerly enjoyed. There was one thing, however, to be considered in this regulation, that those who were now captains or inferior officers, would go on in rank during the peace; yet, when they became general officers, it would not be said, that they were entitled to so large a pay as those who had been actually efficient officers of higher rank during the war.—The hon. gentleman then observed, that it was extraordinary, that no one of his Majesty's ministers had given any hint of the probable reduction on the peace establishment: it was true, details might be difficult, but some general grounds might be given. It appeared, however, that they were to return to their constituents, after the successful termination of the war, from most extraordinary exertions, without any opportunity of announcing to them any reduction of their burthens; but, on the contrary, after having voted all the estimates on the same scale of expenditure as those of last year. As there was a probability and universal expectation of a permanent peace, we should have recurred to the principles of expenditure which we had acted on before the war. It was true, that we were still at war with America; but it was impossible to conceive that America could long contend with this country; and negociations had been entered into, with every prospect of a happy termination. It was, therefore, not without some cause being shewn, that we should depart from the scale of expenditure of 1784. At that time the expense of staff and garrisons was 6,400l. now seldom so little as 600,000l. The ordnance was 400,000l. now between four and five millions. The civil list was 895,000l. now 1,200,000l. The other items had increased in proportion. The interest of the debt was then nine millions; it would at present be more than forty millions, when the whole was funded; yet, though then there was so much less need of reduction, the whole expenditure was 14,400,000l. about five millions more than the interest of the debt. It was the bounden duty of the House to look to the lowest scale to which the expenditure could be reduced. The hon. gentleman concluded by saying, that he should not object to the items of the estimates.

said, that among the various branches of military expenditure to this country, the army in Sicily was one, respecting which he wished to know the intention of his Majesty's ministers. While we were at war, Sicily was of importance, as a military station; but as we were now at peace with the nations on all the shores of the Mediterranean, it was the duty of the House of Commons not to allow an army to be supported in that island, for the purpose of maintaining the sovereign against the people. Under our influence, many important revolutions had been affected in that island. The queen had been banished, and the hereditary prince set up instead of the king. The old Norman constitution, which contained more than any constitution in Europe, the seeds of those establishments, of which we were so proud, had been destroyed, and in its stead a most singular one established; which, in theory, was liberty; in practice, oppression. There had been, indeed, a parliament which sat for a month, but when it had attempted to remedy some enormities in the civil list, it had been dispersed at the point of the bayonet; and a proclamation had been published, threading, with death, the disturbers of public order. He trusted the noble lord (Castlereagh) would give some satisfaction on this subject. The hon. gentleman then adverted to the hard circumstances in which the veteran battalions were placed; which, though composed of worn out men, had been sent on foreign service; and the officers, too, were cut off from the hopes of promotion. He repeated his opinions of the former year, respecting the cavalry regulations, which had succeeded in taking away things most useful, and substituting things scarcely even ornamental. Under the present regulations, it would be better, that the cavalry colonels should have nothing to do with the clothing of their regiments, for they were often considerably losers.

said, that the board, which had drawn up the cavalry regulations, was composed of the most distinguished officers, and their opinions were more likely to be accurate than that of any individual: if the hon. gentleman, however, brought the subject under discussion, he should be ready to meet him. As to the veterans, it was intended to discontinue them as battalions, and to continue the officers on full pay, and the privates on such an allowance as the Chelsea board should think fit. These battalions were composed of men who, though not fit for active service abroad, were thought able to sustain the less severe duty of garrisons. The reason why the usual practice of keeping these troops at home had been departed from was the unprecedented demand on the country for military force. Although they had been sent abroad, they had been stationed in garrisons, only in Madeira or North America, so that the severity of the service was not increased; and every attention had been paid to the comfort of the individuals. So little hardship was there in the case of the officers that more applications were made for commissions in the veteran battalions, than could be attended to. It was very easy to say, that reductions ought to be made; but, in details, he defied any person to show, that economy had been neglected. It was impossible to reduce the regiments till all the battalions returned; but orders had been issued to reduce the cavalry regiments within reach; the troops having been reduced from 10 to 8, the number of men in each troop from 80 to 60. As to the reduction of the militia, &c. as early as April last, it was to be recollected, the number of French prisoners, for whose safe custody we had to provide. All possible progress was made in the reduction of the militia; all regiments that could be spared being marched back to their counties to be dis- banded. As to the staff, it could not be reduced till the troops to which it was attached had returned home. It was sufficient that the peace establishment, in general, would be formed on the most economical arrangements. As to the pay of general officers, it was proposed to increase the pay of those who had not regiments, from 1l. 12s. 6d. to 1l. 18s., which would make, in all, an income of 700l. a year. It would still, however, be a mark of distinction and of advantage to possess regiments; but those, who were not of that opinion, might give them up and receive the increased pay.—The noble lord, adverting to the guards, observed, that such officers of that body, as became general officers, would be wholly relieved from regimental duty, with regard to which, indeed, such officers were heretofore found quite inefficient in certain cases. These officers, then, being so relieved, the captains and other officers likely to succeed them, would gain in rapidity of promotion. As a farther provision for the officers of the guards, who, from their services, he thought peculiarly entitled to the consideration of the House, the noble lord said, that he proposed to grant to the first major of the first regiment, which consisted of three battalions, 900l. a year: to the first majors of the second and third regiments, each of which consisted of only two battalions, 700l. a year: to the captains of the several regiments of guards, he proposed to grant 500l. a year, but on half-pay, he proposed an addition of 50l. a year, to the ordinary allowance to the captains of the first regiment, who appeared to have a stronger claim; and 30l. a year to the captains of the other two regiments; to the lieutenants of the army who had had an additional pay of one shilling a day, he proposed to grant an addition of six-pence a day on half-pay; the half-pay of ensigns he proposed to fix at three shillings a day. The noble lord concluded with some general observation in support of the proposed arrangement.

thought, that as the committee would be the proper place fur going into details, any observations upon them would be inappropriate upon the motion before the House.

said, that he had some observations to make which applied to the principle of the motion. That the military establishment of the empire could not be consistently reduced to the standard at which it stood previous to the war, he was ready to admit; but he contended, that every excess, beyond that standard, ought to be justified upon its own grounds. The excess, created by the acquisition of Malta, the Mauritius, and other places, by the late war, clearly admitted of justification; but no farther excess than that which was equally necessary should be tolerated; and, exclusive of such points as he had alluded to, our military establishment ought to be confined to that which existed previous to the revolutionary war. The noble lord had observed that our military establishment must be regulated by the amount of force maintained by other European powers, and he confessed, that he was much surprised at this observation. Certainly it was not very consistent with the statement of another noble lord (Castlereagh), that we had now to look for a long, a profound, and unsuspicious peace; if so, it could not follow, that because Russia, or Austria, or any other power, maintained 30 or 40,000 troops more than usual, this country should be encumbered with the support of an additional military force. Unless, indeed, the statement of the noble Secretary for foreign affairs was too sanguine, the doctrine of the noble lord who spoke last, was quite untenable.—Here the right hon. gentleman alluded to the state of Sicily, and the views of government with regard to that country. Upon this subject, respecting which, he did not mean to pronounce any blame upon ministers, he felt himself unable to form any opinion, for he could not understand the case. Indeed, it appeared, at present, unintelligible, and perhaps it was not yet expedient to give any explanation.

said, the House and the right hon. gentleman must be aware that the affairs of Sicily were at present in a very critical state. That country had, no doubt, great claims upon Great Britain: it was entitled to expect, that we should actively interest ourselves in its favour; and he could say, that nothing in our power would be wanting to contribute to its future advantage. With respect to the right hon. gentleman's allusion to the character of the peace, he could not help observing, that rather an exaggerated picture was presented by the right hon. gentleman upon that subject, for the House and the country could not dismiss from its mind, that, however deliberately the peace with France might have been formed, much yet remained to be done. It would be recollected, that all the territory regained from France was yet to be distributed; and, under all the circumstances of the case, he submitted it would be quite impossible as yet to reduce our military establishment to the standard which some gentlemen had in view, at least to that which existed twenty years ago. It must also be borne in mind, that very material changes had taken place in the external relations and internal condition of the several nations of Europe, which it would be expedient to consider before any resolution should be adopted with regard to the future amount of our military force. Recurring to Sicily, he was not prepared to give any precise information upon that point at present, but he could assure the House that due attention would be paid to the state and destinies of that country.

deprecated the idea of leaving this country in any degree dependent upon the discretion of other powers, and referred to the arrangement proposed by that great statesman, Mr. Pitt, as to the amount of our military force, upon a peace establishment, in order to guide the judgment of the House, who ought to bear in mind, that while men were influenced by their passions, the jealousy or instability of nations was not likely to cease, and that it would be absurd in this country to calculate upon a security from war. Therefore he would always recommend, that due provision should be made against the visitation of such a calamity, which, at least, was not more improbable in future times, than it had been previous to the revolutionary war. The hon. member concluded, with observing, that adequate preparation and vigorous exertion was ever the best mode of terminating, if it did not prevent a war; and that, if that principle had been acted upon, the war, which separated the American states from Great Britain, would have been much sooner brought to an end, with most probably a very different result.

said, that the officers of the guards would suffer through the arrangement proposed by the noble lord; and in support of this assertion, he quoted a statement lately presented to the commander-in-chief. From this statement, he showed that those officers would suffer; and he maintained, that from the important services which the guards had rendered throughout the war, the officers of that meritorious corps should not have to com- plain of any reduction or deficiency in their pay.

could not help thinking that we might do with a less establishment than we had in 1792. It was impossible not to allow that our military character must go for something; and the nation besides was in a state of internal tranquility. As to our foreign establishment, no very numerous force could be necessary; for instance, in India there was certainly less occasion for a powerful army, than at the time when the French had so much control in that country. He alluded to the state of Sicily, and hoped, that after opening to that kingdom prospects of a better government, we should not leave them to lament that none of our fair promises had been fulfilled.

The House went into a committee, and lord Palmerston moved the first resolution.

objected to the proposed method of paying the officers of the guards; the only effect of the alteration would be, not to benefit a most distinguished branch of military service, but to create a considerable patronage for the government.

went into some details, to show that the general officers of the guards would be losers by the new arrangement.

followed to the same effect, and recommended attention to the situation of the ensigns.

insisted, that the measure would be a gross job, and was calculated only to gratify the desire of the commander in chief to grasp at patronage.

objected to the proposed alteration respecting the guards.

said, that while the committee was considering what sums should or should not be voted to general officers, there were two classes of officers whose situation peculiarly deserved their consideration, he meant the lieutenants and ensigns. For himself he had always reflected upon their condition with the deepest regret; some of them had nothing on which to subsist but merely their half pay. Would it not, therefore, be better to vote a sum which might tend to ameliorate their condition, than to vote 20,009l. a year to accomplish a purpose which those very persons, in whose behalf it was to be accomplished, regarded with disapprobation, and would rather should not be done? Why burden the country to no good purpose, when the same suns might be beneficially appropriated to a meritorious class of individuals, many of whom, it was well known to every member in that House, needed pecuniary aid, almost as much as the most indigent persons in the community.

replied, that in fixing the scale, which had been submitted to the House, the claims of that highly useful and meritorious description of officers had not, he apprehended, been overlooked. Some limitations it was necessary to fix, in spite of those feelings which were likely to influence every one called upon to consider the case of those officers. If the increase of pay to the lieutenants and ensigns was compared with that of the other officers, and if the half pay of each was in like manner compared, he thought the House would agree that the vote was neither nigardly nor illegal. It should be remembered also, that those ensigns, who would be placed on half pay, were the youngest, and had consequently the least claims upon the score of service. Their case was broadly distinguished from that of the lieutenants, most of whom were necessarily, far advanced in life, had performed long services, and found it too late to commence any new course of exertion. Still, he thought, that the allowance to lieutenants was one not to be condemned as parsimonious, consistently with the general rules of the service. The whole expense of the proposed measure would not exceed 3,616l. It had been called, by an hon. member, a gross job, calculated only to gratify the desire of his royal highness the commander in chief, to grasp after patronage. He trusted it would only be necessary, in order to repel this insinuation, to remind the House of the eminent and distinguished services of that illustrious personage since he had been at the head of the army, in every thing at all connected with its discipline, comfort, and efficiency. He had only to remind the House of their own unanimous vote on a recent occasion, when those services were so honourably recognized—services no less honourable to his royal highness himself, than beneficial to the whole army. How, then, was it possible to convert the measure into an object of patronage? If the House would sanction it, they would find, in the manner in which the commissions would be filled up, no ground for that imputation which it was attempted to fix upon the motives of the commander in chief. With regard to the pay of general officers, it had been fixed at a sum not much exceeding 700l. a year, in order that it might be sufficiently below a regiment, to render the latter an object worth bestowing as an increased benefit and favour.

wished to know the precise number of commissions, which this measure would place at the disposal of the commander in chief.

said, the extent of the patronage would be limited wholly to the guards, and the number of commissions would not exceed 35.

explained. In considering the measure as a job, and in alluding to the desire in the commander in chief of grasping at patronage, he had spoken advisedly. He was the last who would advance any charge loosely or rashly, and he was also the last man to retract it loosely or rashly, when deliberately made.

contended, that the scale proposed by the noble lord was wholly inapplicable to the lieutenants and ensigns of the army, to whom it would not afford the maintenance to which they were entitled. The ensigns would have but 3s. a day—not the wages of a day labourer! It was a situation of extreme hardship in which those gentlemen ought not to be placed. The noble lord had by no means answered the objections which had been made to the propositions respecting the guards. The subject was to him unintelligible, except that he knew that it was proposed to expend 3,000l. a year in a way not acceptable to those by whom it was to be received.

was about to propose his amendment, for adding 1,000l. to the grant, but

observed, that he had an amendment, which, according to parliamentary usage, must supersede that of the hon. general, as it went to reduce the grant; while that of the hon. general tended to increase it. The object that he had in view was to put an end to the measure respecting the guards, by deducting, from the vote, the sum of 10,000l. which would have that effect; and he should therefore move, as an amendment, for the words "a sum not exceeding 40,000l." to substitute the words "a sum not exceeding 30,000l."

On this amendment the committee divided. For the amendment, 19; against it 53—majority, 34. The committee subsequently divided on general Gascoyne's amendment. Yeas, 21; Noes, 53—Majority 32.

The original resolution was then put and agreed to; as was also a resolution for granting a sum, not exceeding 30,000l., for the disembodied militia of Ireland.

warmly contended that no circumstances had appeared which would justify parliament in overturning the ancient constitution of the city in this respect. What peace or order could it be expected would be preserved by magistrates; who, if this Bill passed, would be, in effect, degraded, disgraced, reviled, and spit upon? He had acted for twenty years as a magistrate, and he felt that he had conscientiously and honorably discharged his duty, and so he was sure had all his brother magistrates.—The most unfounded statements had been made. It had been said, that the meat was thrown into the prison of Newgate, to be scrambled for by the prisoners. The morning after this statement, a paper had been spontaneously signed by 60 or 70 of the felons, contradicting it in the most unequivocal terms; and declaring, that they were as well treated in every respect as possible. In consequence of what had been said of the custom of garnish money, it had been stopped by the court of aldermen; but a representation had subsequently been made to them, that the prohibition would deprive some of the unfortunate persons confined, of little comforts, and make them completely miserable. With respect to the borough goal he allowed that abuses had existed in it, but those were not attributable to the magistracy of London, who had no control over that institution. The hon. baronet concluded, by moving, as an amendment, that the Report be taken into further consideration on that day six months.

seconded the motion, and expressed his hope that the Bill would be lost by a considerable majority.

re-asserted his statement of the scramble in Newgate for food, and denied that the magistracy had no right to interfere with the Borough goal. The way in which they had permitted Dr. Ford, so long and so grossly, to neglect his duty was a sufficient ground for parliamentary interference.

admitted, that the Borough goal had not been in a proper state; positively contradicted the statement made by the hon. gentleman of the scramble for the provisions sent into Newgate; and remonstrated strongly against some unfair advantages which had been taken by the supporters of the measure.

said, he had been to the Borough compter that very day, and he found, that a man came there on Saturday last, who could get no bed. A few carpets were got together for him, through the kindness of his fellow-prisoners. On Sunday he got a bed, not from the magistrates, but through the kindness of the gaoler.

said, that those gentlemen who wished him to withdraw his measure, would change their opinion, when they heard the language of the hon. alderman, who spoke some time before him. The Report stated the want of food, fuel, bedding, and religious instruction: it stated the prevalence of improper conduct, and the introduction of spirituous liquors: the Borough compter was on all hands admitted to be in a most miserable state; the attention of the magistrates had been called to it again and again, ineffectually, by Mr. Nealde and others; and when these abuses were attempted to be remedied, they were assailed, on all hands, with an attempt to degrade the magistrates of the city of London. These abuses were still unremedied in a great measure; and, if they had this specimen of the manner in which the goals were conducted, while the subject was under the notice of the House, what was to be expected when all enquiry was gone by?

contended, that most of the evils, in the management of Newgate, arose from the over-crowded state of the goal. Till this was remedied, the committee could not do any good, and the appointment of it was unnecessary.

protested against the practice of charging every measure, like the present, with being an attempt to degrade constituted authorities.

thought the magistrates were perfectly competent to discharge the functions which this Bill proposed to take from them.

The House then divided. For the amendment, 22—Against it, 17—Majority, against the Bill, 5.