stated himself to be anxious to explain the nature of this Bill. He described it as being nothing more than a renewal of the Act of 1802. It did not give ministers greater power than they were entrusted with by that Act. Whether those powers were originally too great, it was for the House to decide. For his own part, considering all circumstances, he had never been of opinion, that that Act went too far.—No abuse of it had, in any one case, been proved. The present Bill, he admitted to be, in some respects, imperfect; but he hoped there would be no objection to pass the it for the present, as the period of its operation was limited to one year.

said, the only part of the right hon. gentleman's speech, which was to him satisfactory, was that in which he stated the operations of this Bill would be confined to one year. That did away much of what he had thought objectionable in the Bill, though he could never bring himself to think we ought to have an Alien Act in force, but against the subjects of a country with whom we were actually at war. An Alien Act was first framed, from the peculiar nature of the war, and afterwards kept up from the peculiar character of the peace. If Europe had gained any thing by the late war—if the present peace were a good one, we ought to be enabled to do without such a law. The right hon. gentleman had said, the Act had not been proved to have been abused in any one case. This was not very extraordinary, when the proof offered to be given, had never been received. In some cases, he believed individuals, had, by means of this Act, been treated with unmerited severity.

did not see that any sort of ground had been offered for continuing this Act in force; and feared it may give rise to the same complaints that were made against it in 1802. The French at that time complained of the Alien Act, as a removal of confidence, and as a proof that this country was not seriously disposed to peace. Its operation at present would be much worse; and tend, he feared, to prolong jealousy between the two countries.

could not vote for the Bill on the slender grounds laid. He should be glad to know against whom the measure was directed? Was it against Americans, or against Spaniards, French, or Germans? One of the grounds of war with America, was, that we stole and kidnapped her subjects, and brought them into this country. Where were the persons to whom the Bill would apply? Who now were infected with this leven of Jacobinism? Was it meant to be said that ministers were now afraid of revolutionary emissaries from France? By whom was the right hon. gentleman terrified, whom he wished to send out of the country? As to no mal-practice having been proved under this Bill, the fact was, that ministers would never go to trial: it was negatively established, however, even in the case of De Berenger, that the Alien Act had been misapplied and abused. After peace had been signed with all the Eastern world, we were told that some measure of this kind was necessary. Another reason for objecting to this Bill, was, the imperfect state in which it was brought before the House.

said, the hon. gentleman tad fallen into a misapprehension as to the grounds on which the Bill was brought in. It was not from apprehension or suspicion of any foreign power; these had nothing to do with the question, which was simply this—whether it was proper that the aliens now in this countrry should be subject to no regulation whatever while they remained here. This Bill was but a transcript of the former Act, and gave no power to apprehend an alien which was not to be exercised by a proclamation, an order in council, or a warrant under the sign manual. The alien, when apprehended, could not be sent out of the country immediately, against his will. If disposed to do so, he might appeal to the privy council.

objected to the Bill. He did not see any good that could arise from it at the present time. It was not true that, by this Act, the Secretary of State could not arrest an alien. The Bill expressly gave to the Secretary such a power.

explained. The Bill would give no power of arrest to the Secretary of State, until after the order in council was issued for the apprehension of an alien.

said, that it was not enough to urge in support of any measure, that it was a transcript of some former act of parliament. There had been many suspensions of the Habeas Corpus Act, each of which was the transcript of some other; but such a measure would at any time be very ill received, without some statement of the necessity of taking from his Majesty's subjects their constitutional protection. The Bill before the House was a measure analagous to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus, for it took from the aliens, in amity with his Majesty, that protection which it was the boast of our constitution to afford them. The question then returned to the necessity of the case, and he should assume, that none such existed, because it had even been alleged, that the present state of things was not in any degree extraordinary. The policy of the first Act on this subject, was, to prevent the influx of dangerous foreign political principles. In the feverish time which followed the last war, the same danger was apprehended to exist. Could it be said, that any trace of the circumstances of those times existed at present? Indeed, at present, there was a greater fear of an influx of those which were thought the dangerous principles of France in a former period of our constitution, the principles of arbitrary government. These principles, however, it was fortunate, were not of a nature to inflame the people in their favour. As there had been stated no ground of necessity for the measure, it should have his decided opposition; and not the less for one of the reasons stated in support of it by the right hon. gentleman opposite to him, that a power, similar to that given to the government by this Bill, was possessed by all the other governments of Europe. All these sovereigns possessed the same arbitrary power over their own subjects, yet it would not be contended, that, in this respect, we should assimilate our institutions to theirs.

could not at once dispense with all those precautionary measures which had so long been thought necessary. He differed with those who were disposed to go to the extreme jump, from imminent danger to such perfect security, that no precautionary regulations were longer desirable. He rather apprehended, that in politics, as in most of the transactions of common life, a middle course was the best to pursue. The political world, like the domestic, did not so quickly right itself, that they ought at once to give themselves up to that perfect confidence which represented all measures of precaution to be useless. These, he thought, ought to be still to a certain degree kept up, though somewhat in a shape of mitigated severity.

considered the act to be one which was very liable to abuse. The present time was that which least called for it; and ministers, in bringing the measure forward now, because it had been thought necessary before, reminded him of the unfortunate wag mentioned in Joe Miller, who was so fond of rehearsing a piece of wit, that he always repeated it at the wrong time.

The House divided: For the second reading, 92—Against it, 28: Majority for the second reading, 69. The Bill was then read a second time.

observed, that, among the various circumstances which had adorned the British character, and raised the British name, of late years, none was more distinguished, than the liberality which this nation had shown towards the sufferers of other countries. Most of our allies, in their turns, had been the objects of this liberality. We had extended relief to the Portuguese; who, in the just and necessary defence of their country, had themselves contributed to its desolation. We had extended our bounty to the Russians, whose capital had been consumed in the flame, kindled in the desperate and patriotic struggle for the independence of their country. But, among those to whom the support of parliament had been extended, there were none who had a better claim to their liberality than those to whom, in obedience to the Prince Regent's commands, he was about to call the attention of the committee: whether we should consider the unprecedented ravages of the war, or the merits of patriotism of those who had suffered from them. Among these sufferers were our fellow-subjects in Hanover; the unfortunate inhabitants of Hamburgh, who, by a premature, but most gallant declaration of their zeal in the general cause of Europe, had subjected themselves, before effectual assistance could be given them, to the unrelenting vengeance of the late ruler of France; the brave Silesians, the countrymen and companions in arms of the gallant Blucher; the unfortunate inhabitants of Saxony, who, in the unexampled battle of Leipsic, saw their country laid waste for thirty leagues round that city. The extent of the waste committed, defied all comparison with former wars. The immense force, and incredible efforts exerted on the one side, could only be overpowered by superior force, and yet more strenuous exertion on the other. The magnitude of the contending armies was beyond all example: at the battle of Leipsic, not less than 700,000 men had contended in arms, and these immense bodies had moved without the provision of regular magazines, and with a rapidity unknown in former wars, from the Volga to the Rhine. The vast extent of country, embraced in these operations, had rendered the ordinary provision of supplies impracticable, and extended devastation to the remotest corners. In former times, when the theatre of war had been more narrow, and the contending armies of more limited magnitude, it had often happened, that a country had been rather enriched than impoverished, by becoming the theatre of war; but, in the late conflict, no regulations could be adopted for payment; the contending forces, the deliverers as well as the oppressors, lived upon the country.—All was extortion, rapacity, violence, and devastation. There had been a waste of lives, and a ravage of property altogether unexampled. The contribution, which he was about to propose, for the relief of such extensive distress, was undoubtedly large, being a sum of 100,000l. But, he had the satisfaction of stating, that, however large it might appear, the spontaneous liberality of individuals had already exceeded the sum, which he now called upon the public in its collective capacity, through its representatives in parliament, to grant. Far, indeed, would this sum be from a compensation for the losses sustained; for the accounts collected by the Committee for the relief of the sufferers, and which he held in his hand, would show how small a proportion the sum which he had proposed bore to the amount of those losses. Without troubling the Committee with the detail of those accounts, he would only state, by way of example, that, from the sum raised by subscription, it had only been possible to grant 7,000 dollars, in an instance in which the extent of loss was actually proved to have amounted to 700,000 dollars. The committee must not, however, conclude, that this relief, however inconsiderable, in proportion to the loss, was wholly inadequate to its purpose. It would preserve the sufferer from sinking under despondency and despair. It would console him with the reflection, that his sufferings were not forgotten; it would, as had appeared in the account lately laid before the House, of the Portuguese sufferers, afford the means of reanimating his industry, and supply the most immediate and pressing of his wants. He concluded, by proposing, "That a sum, not exceeding 100,000l. be granted to his Majesty, to enable his Majesty to afford relief to the inhabitants of such parts of Germany as have suffered in their persons and property, in consequence of the operations of the late war, and of the wanton devastations committed by the forces acting under the orders of the late ruler of France; and that the said sum be issued and paid to the committee appointed in London, for the relief of the sufferers in Germany, without any fee or other deduction whatsoever."

expressed his approbation of the grant in the strongest terms. He hoped it would be distributed in the same manner as the grant in Portugal had been. The way in which that grant had been applied, encouraged a hope that this would be productive of results equally gratifying, as that which was bestowed by the liberality of parliament for the relief of the Portuguese sufferers, in 1811. That grant, munificently voted, had been so providently applied, and accounted for with such precision and exactness, that the smallest sum, and the purpose for which it was appropriated, was as fairly and as clearly stated as it would have been in any merchant's accounts. Those who had been employed in the distribution of it, and who had disinterestedly refused to accept of any remuneration for their trouble, were entitled to the thanks of parliament. One gentleman of our own country, who had been attached to the legation in Portugal, Mr. Croft, the writer of the memoir before the House, had, by his humane exertions in the cause, done himself infinite honour. From the memoir in question, it appeared, that he had been the means of communicating blessings to the sufferers, which they could not possibly have received, but through the vote of that House. It had caused the hopes of the country to revive: the good effects of it were every where apparent, and he wished they might received as good an account of the 200,000l. voted for the Russian sufferers, in 1812. In a day of glory and of happiness, like the present, they ought to prove themselves anxious to succour, and to save every one who appeared entitled to such assistance.

was astonished that, after the Chancellor of the Exchequer had so lately objected to granting a small sum of money to increase the allowance of a class of men who had so gallantly served their country, he should now propose a vote of 100,000l. for the relief of foreigners. This was one of the greatest inconsistencies of which the present administration had been guilty. He concluded by expressing his intention to oppose the grant.

was surprised that gentlemen should disapprove of a measure, which had the hearts and minds of the public in its favour. He thought that it was necessary parliament should manifest its feelings as well as individuals.

though he would not vote against the proposed increase of officers' half-pay the other day, yet he could not, give it his support, because he thought it unconstitutional for parliament to augment the pay of the army. But he did not think this grant could be denied to poor individuals, who were not only not in the situation of those officers, but who were reduced to the greatest distress and the deepest ruin. He concurred in the praises on the conduct of the gentlemen commissioned to distribute the Portuguese grant. They had explored every part of the invaded country; they had sought every haunt of misery, yielding relief, and receiving blessings; and the report, which they had made of their proceedings, was the most able, clear, and satisfactory. The assistance given in that kingdom, was substantial, and such, he trusted, that now proposed, would prove. He did not wish it to be granted merely for the credit of the country, but for the actual relief of the sufferers. England had derived advantages from those hostilities which had ravaged the continent. Was it too much to expect, that she should endeavour to alleviate the distress of the sufferers? not indeed to repair it entirely, for that was not in her power; and the only doubt he had in his mind on the subject, was, whether she would be able to produce any considerable good. Hundreds of thousands, and millions even, would scarcely suffice to eradicate the traces of devastation. But it would be her chief honour and glory to be permitted to afford relief consonant with her ability to suffering nations.

was in favour of the measure.

was of opinion, that this money ought not to be granted. It was not through insensibility to the sufferings of others that he opposed this vote, but for the same reasons which had led him to object to the Portuguese grant; because he thought we should be acting inefficaciously towards the distressed abroad, and unjustly towards those at home. He contended, that his hon. friends had not refused to agree to the present measure, be- cause the proposal for an increase of military half-pay had been rejected the other day, but out of regard for the finances of the country; and because he thought, that we ought to be just before we were generous. The ground on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had resisted the motion in behalf of reduced officers, was the state of the finances. But when there were so many thousands to be relieved in this country, and we were told we could not step forth to their assistance, through the deficient situation of our treasury, was it consistent, a few hours afterwards, to propose a far more considerable grant of money to aid total strangers? He knew that the ravages of war had extended all over Europe; that in Portugal they had been carried to their utmost extent, and had opposed the vote of the sum granted to that country, because it could not be so applied with justice or with effect. The conduct of the commissioners, who had distributed that gift, had been mentioned in terms of praise; he had no doubt but they had acted with prudence and with judgment, and had attracted blessings on their heads and on their country; but notwithstanding all their exertions, he really believed the chief object of the House, even in that instance, had not been accomplished, and that general relief had not been obtained. It had been, he feared, the same in Germany. The subjects of those countries, besides, had to look up to their own sovereigns, who had now re-ascended their thrones: and were not those of England to look up to their own government for relief? It was easy to talk of our overflowing abundance and resources; but must the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer not know that those resources were finite? That after such heavy taxation, as the people had borne, the day of reckoning would come, which would be a heavy one for the subjects of this country. If the question were put to the officers, to assist the distressed of other countries, they certainly would not refuse, but they would not think it less hard, that they should not have been considered themselves by the justice of parliament. As to private contributions, he had heard that, in proportion as great efforts were made for sufferers abroad, institutions at home languished. It was well known that people in this country contributed to their utmost to charitable purposes, but as their means were not inexhaustible, when they had disposed of their money one way, they could not apply it to its usual ends. In this manner much harm might be done to the subjects of this realm, who were objects, not of parliamentary liberality, but of parliamentary justice. He deprecated any uncharitable motive in his resistance to the present motion, which he should oppose on the ground of principle, but certainly not of feeling.

thought, that as parliament was anticipated in the most marked manner by public feeling in this measure, it could neither be untimely nor unjust; for public feeling would not take such au unanimous and decided course towards a wrong object. The question for parliament was, to compare the urgency of the demands at home and abroad. It was not the interest of this country alone which should be considered, but that of humanity and the world at large. Nothing would establish our character so firmly as acting on the elevated principle of doing good to mankind. It was not only the relief yielded to individuals that was of importance, but the moral excitement given to all. If it did not entirely repair the evils caused by the devastations of war, it encouraged the unfortunate sufferers, and shewed them how to make the first effort necessary to emerge from their situation. Without such a stimulus, it was astonishing in what a state of depression and despair they would remain. No one, who had not visited the countries through which the devastations of war had rolled, could conceive how completely the very first ingredients that contributed to the relief and support of man were exhausted. Besides the propriety of the grant, it ought also to be considered that it was merely a temporary measure, and added no yearly burthen to the country.

though he would not oppose the vote, thought that no injustice should be done to the servants of the country who were about to be discharged from the service. It was said, that the grant did not produce any annual burthen, whilst the application for an increase of half-pay would have entailed an expense of at leas 20,000l. a year on the people. Now, if the different charitable gifts, bestowed of foreign nations, were collected, and the interest of the money cast up, it would be found that the country, had in fact, lost an annual revenue equal to the additional expenditure proposed. The first grant was to Portugal, and amounted to 100,000l.; annual interest, 5,000l. The next to Russia, 200,000l; annual interest, 10,000l. The present grant to Germany, 10,000l. would also have procedure 5,000l. a year; so that the annual loss of interest on these three gifts would equal the whole amount proposed to increase the comforts and respectability of reduced officers. As to the sum raised by voluntary subscriptions for the Russians, it appeared that, together with the parliamentary grant, it had exceeded the wants of the country for which it was intended. He had received 4,000l. in subscriptions from Bombay; and had made an application to the Committee for the Russian subscription, in order that they should receive the money, but had not yet been able to effect that purpose. It was evident, therefore, that there was no further demand on that fund, and he thought it might be made over to swell that intended to relieve the Germans.

assured the House, that they would in due time receive a Report of the distribution of the Russian grant, as satisfactory as that which had accounted for the application of the vote to Portugal. He hoped, that the difficulties which his hon. friend had experienced in endeavouring to dispose of the money received from India, in the manner intended by its givers, would not induce parliament to think that there had been any neglect in the management of that business. It was a strong trait of the interest which the sufferings of the Russian people had excited, that not only Europe, but India should have subscribed for their relief.

said, he could easily find deserving persons at home to receive the money which the hon. gentleman was thus prevented from sending abroad. Before he consented to the grant, he would be glad to know how matters stood with the powers whose subjects we assisted, and how far they were able to relieve their own people. The sum voted by the House had not been received with gratitude in Russia [a sign of dissent from lord Castlereagh]. The noble lord always shook his head, when he heard of people refusing to take money. It was extraordinary that the present grant of 100,000l. should be intended to raise and establish the character of the country. After her conduct during the late wars, after bleeding at every pore and exhausting her wealth for other nations, were all her exactions come to this, that she must purchase a good character for herself at the ex- pence of 100,000l.? Could it be supposed, that all those great persons who had so lately recovered their kingdoms, had made applications to this country for the relief of their own subjects? He wished to know what the Regency of Hanover had subscribed, and those who were connected by ties of blood with the Germans? It was a sufficient misfortune for one not to obtain what he asked: but to find it gained, by persons not even connected with his country, was a still greater hardship. Did not the hon. mover know, that there were 3,000 midshipmen, who, without any provision, and many without the means or the ability of doing any thing in life, after they had lost their profession, would now be turned out upon the country? Those were certainly proper objects to receive the bounty of parliament, but the munificence of the government was always displayed towards foreigners to the neglect of those who fought the battles of their country.

stated, that the greatest gratitude had been expressed by the emperor of Russia on the part of his suffering subjects. As to the hard treatment which it was asserted British officers had experienced from parliament, the charge was totally unfounded. They had entered the service, fully aware what would be the amount of the half-pay they were to receive; and it now was greater than they originally had a right to expect. It was, therefore, both unjust and impolitic to revert incessantly to an assertion which could only create groundless discontent.

desired to exclaim, that the narrow economy which had been imputed to him. He had never stated, that the country was unable to grant the augmentation of half-pay, proposed by the gentleman opposite, in certain cases. But he had contended, and still thought, that the proposed augmentation was inconsistent with the general scale of allowances, and regulations of the service: that it would lead to mutual jealousy, and a further indefinite extension of claims; and that it would put the officers, when unemployed, and in a situation to seek other means of improving their incomes, upon a footing, perhaps, more favourable, but, at least, too nearly approaching to that of those, whose time was actually devoted to the service of their country. Upon another point, stated by a right hon. gentleman opposite, (Mr. Tierney), that right hon. gen- tleman had been completely misinformed, and had uttered, no doubt, unintentionally, a most gross, and unfounded aspersion upon our allies. It was not true, that the people of Germany had shown any want of sympathy to the sufferings of those, who were distressed in consequence of the war. He was surprised, that the right hon. gentleman should not have heard of their exertions, and he was particularly astonished, that he should not be aware of those, which had been made by the ladies of Berlin. Surely, he must have heard, that those ladies, not content with sacrificing the ornaments of their persons, and every thing which could be spared, by the strictest economy, from the comforts of their families, for the relief of the sufferers; had devoted themselves, with heroic constancy, to the service of the hospitals. There, amidst every scene of distress, and pain, and disgust, from which persons of firmer nerves, and hardier habits, might have been expected to shrink, were ladies of the highest education, the most refined habits, and the tenderest feelings, daily to be seen; setting, as an example, which it might well become us to imitate, but which, at least, we ought not to forget. Those ladies, and others who co-operated with them in these offices of benevolence, would certainly not think our bounty, as the right hon. gentleman had insinuated, rather an insult, than a benefit; but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was able to state a fact, by no means secret, but publicly known, which placed this subject, if it even could have been doubtful, beyond all possibility of dispute. The sovereign of the country, to which he had particularly alluded, in his late, visit to this capital, had sought for an interview with the committee of subscribers, for the relief of the sufferers in Germany, and had not only expressed to them, the warmest sense of the liberality of this nation, but had actually contributed a subscription to this fund, as a mark of his approbation and gratitude.

spoke in favour of the grant.

supported it warmly. He thought, that when he looked at Greenwich and Chelsea, it was idle to say, that our poor had always been neglected at home. It was to the sufferings, as well as to the exertions, of the Germans, that we owed the present state of peace; and were our resources so far gone, that we could not spare 100,000l. to reward them for their conduct?

The Resolution was then put, and carried, without a division.

opposed the motion, on the ground, that it had not been proved, that the revenues of the church were not sufficient to support all its members, and that the continual and rapid increase of tythes rendered all other contributions unnecessary.

objected to the extension of this provision to the islands of Jersey, Guernsey, and Alderney, which contributed nothing to the revenue of the state.

stated, that it was in consequence of representations made to the privy council, that a decision was taken respecting those islands.

After some further conversation between Mr. Horner, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. W. Wynne, Mr. Bankes, and sir E. Brydges, the Resolution was carried in the affirmative.

expressed himself desirous, after so much time had been consumed by discussions on other subjects, of encroaching as little as possible, on the time of the Committee, in stating this subject for their consideration. He wished particularly, to recall their attention to the distinction which he had stated on a former occasion, between the two great branches of the Civil List expenditure; that which respected the personal allowances, and the household of the sovereign, and the royal family, and that which comprehended the judicial, civil, and political establishments of the government of the country. It was satisfactory to him, to be able to state, that, though in the general aggregate expense of the Civil List during the last year, there had been some increase; yet, in the household branch, there had been a diminution; and that the general excess arose from an augmentation of some political expenses, which he could easily explain to the Committee; and which, he hoped, would not be thought objectionable. In going through the several classes of the Civil List, it would be found, that in the first class, that of allowances to the royal family, there had been no increase. In the second, that, of the judges, there was also scarcely any variation. In the third, that, of our ministry abroad, there had been a considerable increase from the happy restoration of our relations of amity with the nations of the continent. The amount of this increase was about 13,000l. and the particular items, of which it consisted, might be seen by a reference to the printed accounts, to which he should beg leave to refer the Committee. But the increase of 13,000l. upon this head, was by no means an additional charge upon the public to that extent; as it would be found, by referring to the sixth classs, that a saving of 8,000l. had been made, by the employment of ministers, who before were in the receipt of pensions. This laudable attention to economy in the foreign departments, reduced the actual increase of expense to 5,000l. In the fourth class, that, of the bills of the household, there was, in the whole, an increase of about 2,000l.; the Bills in the Lord Chamberlain's departments, being about 2,000l. less than in the former year; and those in the departments of the Master of the Horse about 3,000l. less; while those in the department of the Lord Steward were increased about 7,000l. in consequence, probably, of a greater number of entertainments, given by the Regent. In the fifth class, that, of the salaries of the officers of the household, there was an increase of about 2,500l. which also appeared to have taken place in the Lord Steward's department. In the sixth class, that, of pensions and compensations, there was scarcely any variation, except in that part which related to the pensions of ministers before unemployed, in which there had been, as he had before stated, a diminution of about 8,000l. The seventh class, which comprises a multitude of small payments, due by ancient usage, hardly admits of any variation; and in the eighth class, which comprises the salaries of the lords of the Treasury, there was no other difference than what arose from a short vacancy in the office of first lord of the Treasury, in the year 1812; occasioned by a catastrophe too well remembered by the House.

In the remaining class of occasional payments, considerable variations will appear; making, in the whole, an excess of 30,000l. which would be found entirely to arise from an increase of 10,000l. in the presents to foreign ministers, in consequence of the treaties and conventions which had lately taken place; and an increase of 30,000l. in the disbursements of our ministers residing at foreign courts. These two items amounted together to 40,000l.; but from them must be deducted a diminution of 8,000l. under the head of special service; and one of 2,000l. under that of equipage to ministers at foreign courts, making the actual excess of this class, taken collectively, 30,000l. Among the extraordinary disbursements, to which he had referred, would be found a considerable sum drawn on account of the missions at Lisbon and Cadiz. He had, on a former occasion, explained the causes which led to the extraordinary expense of those missions. The singular situation of the ministers employed there, of whom sir Charles Stuart was a member of the regency of Portugal, and sir Henry Wellesley, as the representative of the British government, held a connection with the Spanish government very distinct from that of any other foreign minister, would of itself account for any extraordinary expense. But, in addition to these circumstances, it must be recollected, that both Lisbon and Cadiz, were, for a considerable time, almost in a state of siege, and that the loss upon the exchange alone, added 30 per cent. to the expenses of our ministers. He had the satisfaction of stating, that he understood, that those extraordinary allowances had been discontinued from the 5th of July, 1813; and that the bills, which had since been drawn, were for the discharge of arrears before incurred.

The total amount of the charge upon the Civil List, for the year ending the 5th of April last, had been 1,349,000l.; of which 1,095,000l. had been discharged from the ordinary sources of income, and 136,000l. from the droits of Admiralty, and other funds at the disposal of the crown; leaving an ultimate deficiency of 118,000l. for which he should submit a vote to the Committee. He might here conclude all he should wish to state, with reference to that vote; but as it was his intention to submit a further proposition to the Committee, for a grant in aid of the Civil List expenses, during the current year, he preferred introducing here what he had to say on that subject, to troubling the Committee a second time. The sum he should propose, was 100,000l.; a sum by no means adequate even to the ordinary exceedings of the Civil List in late years, and much less to those extraordinary expenses of which estimates were already on the table; but he thought it much more desirable to wait for the end of the year, and then to submit the account to the approbation of parliament, than to call, by anticipation, for so large a provision, as he might expect it would then be found necessary.

By referring to the estimates on the table, it would appear that the excess of the July quarter only, beyond the corresponding quarter of the preceding year, would amount to a greater sum than he proposed to ask. This excess arose from extraordinary expenses and preparations, which chiefly arose from the visit of the allied sovereigns. Upon those estimates, much had already been said in the House; and it was not his intention to renew the discussion. But he wished to ask, gentlemen, what would have been their feelings, if he had been able, twelve months ago, to have predicted to them, that the greatest sovereigns in Europe, after having, in concert with the councils and arms of this country, terminated a glorious war, by an honourable and advantageous peace, signed in the capital of the enemy, designed to pay the representative of our sovereign, as a proof of respect to his character; and that he, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had proposed to the House a grant of 100,000l. to enable the Prince Regent to make suitable preparation for their reception; whether, in such a case, any other sentiment could have been felt in the House, or any voice uttered, but those of gratitude and exultation? This glorious prospect had, however, been realized; and, whatever might be said of some particular circumstances in the expenses which had taken place, he was sure that the general sentiment of the country, and the strongest feelings of the public went along with the government in all that had been done. When the expenditure, which had been incurred by individuals and corporate bodies on this great occasion, was compared with what had been done by the government, he was sure the House could not think the general amount of the charge extravagant or misplaced. From the shortness of the visit of the illustrious and royal personages alluded to, and from some unavoidable delays, much of the intended preparation had not been completed in time; but that was no ground for condemning it, as it was undertaken in contemplation of a more extended visit.

Much, both of expense and delay, was occasioned by the sovereign of this country, not being possessed of a residence fitted for splendid representation. There were few sovereigns, even of the secondary states of Europe, who did not inhabit palaces much better suited to entertainments on a grand scale. The consequence was, that, whenever any thing of the kind was thought proper, much expense was incurred in temporary buildings; which, after having answered their immediate purpose, were of no further use. It might, therefore, even in point of economy, be well worth consideration, whether a palace should not be erected; but this was a question which he undoubtedly thought ought not to be hastily decided; and he was far from suggesting, that it would be proper to undertake it at this moment. He did not, at present, feel it necessary to go more minutely into the subject, but should conclude by moving, "That a sum, not exceeding 118,857l. 4s. 11d. be granted to his Majesty, to make good the deficiency of the Civil List, on the 5th day of April 1814.

complained of the lateness of the period in the session, at which the question respecting the Civil List—a question of so much importance—was brought under the consideration of the House. He trusted that early in the next session, the subject would undergo a serious investigation before a committee above stairs, and that the committee would be empowered to examine witnesses, without which, all enquiry would be perfectly nugatory. The right hon. gentleman did not mean to say, that any of the items, contained in the estimate, were incorrect; but he conceived that information ought to be laid before the House, to satisfy them of the fact. There was a sum of 24,000l. charged for the expenses of sir William Stewart, as our resident at Lisbon: now, he meant not to insinuate that the whole of this sum had not been fairly expended; but he complained, that no documents were laid before parliament to enable them to ascertain how. He could not move for the correspondence of sir W. Stewart, for the purpose of procuring information on the subject. The only mode, then, was, to examine evidence at the bar. The regular increase of the Civil List, was a circumstance that called peculiarly for the notice of the House. The Civil List had been given as a boon to the crown. It had been settled at a particular sum, under the impression, that the bounds so laid down, would not be exceeded. But in this they were mistaken; the excess, in 1811, was 124,000l.; and, in the two last years, 1812 and 1813, it amounted to no less than 240,000l. He could not state this to the House, without observing, that "there was something rotten in the state of Denmark;" that there was something in the management and expenditure of the Civil List, requiring their interference. It was not his intention to press any discussion on the subject at the present moment; but he hoped, that in the next session of parliament, what he had now stated, would not be forgotten. A bargain ought not to be concluded without due deliberation; but, when once concluded, it ought to be adhered to. The total Civil List amounted to 1,700,000l. per annum; of this, the royal family received 571,000l. totally apart from any expense incurred in the department of the Lord Chamberlain or the Master of the Horse. In pointing out how this sum was apportioned, he could not help making the same observations which he had done, when the indisposition of the King was under the consideration of the House, with respect to the enormous extent of the Windsor establishment; observations which now had double force, when no expectation remained that his Majesty's health was likely to be restored. There was an increase, he observed, of 20,000l. on the Windsor establishment, which came under the fourth class of the Civil List, the Lord Steward's department. The items of which the establishment was composed, were as follows: his Majesty received 160,000l.; her Majesty 68,000l.; the princesses, 16,000l.; making a total on the Civil List, of 244,000l. There was, besides, to the princesses 36,000l.; and a charge on the duchy of Lancaster, of 10,000l.; making altogether 290,000l. This was the annual allowance for the Windsor establishment, unburdened with any repairs—completely freed from any great contingent expences. Now, he would ask, was it right that her Majesty should have at her disposal, and under her controul, so enormous a sum as 290,000l. sterling? Was this sum necessary for the maintenance of a house of mourning—where no extravagant amusements, where no festivities were admitted? He did not now state this for the first time; he had made the same observations when Mr. Perceval made the arrangement. But it was now absolutely an insult to the public to say, that the Windsor establishment demanded so large a sum as he had mentioned. The privy purse of the Prince of Wales was 60,000l. per annum; why a sum of 10,000l. was added to it, he could not conceive. The privy purse of his Majesty was only 60,000l. while that of the Prince Regent is 70,000l. The duchy of Cornwall, on an average, was said to produce 13,000l. per annum. But this was an old average; and, he believed, of late years, it brought in considerably more. But taking it at 13,000l. joined with the privy purse, the whole formed a gross sum of 83,000l. There was a charge of 65,000l. for his Royal Highness, on the consolidated fund, making, with the former, 148,000l. Of this, 50,000l. was set apart for the payment of his Royal Highness's debts; and there were other charges on it, to the amount of 22,000l. more, being a total of 72,000l.; which, deducted from 148,000l., left a clear income of 76,000l. per annum. Why, then, should parliament be called upon to increase the salary of the Princess of Wales, by an addition of 13,000l., when the Prince Regent, provision having been made for his debts, had at his disposal, 70,000l. a year? If the droits of Admiralty should be unproductive in future (no person surely could expect that they would be productive), and the civil list proceeded on its present scale, it would hereafter be found necessary to provide not less than 250,000l. per annum out of the public purse, in aid of that list. While the demands of the civil list were defrayed out of the funds arising from contingencies, gentlemen, perhaps, did not think it necessary to examine the system; but its operation hereafter would be exactly what he had stated, unless proper measures were adopted.—Mr. Tierney then proceeded to animadvert on the items forming the heads of expenditure in the Lord Chamberlain's department. And, in the first instance, complained, that estimates, necessary to enable the House to form a proper judgment on the expenditure, had not been submitted to them. To shew that the expense of all works projected in the Lord Chamberlain's department, ought, in the first instance, to be estimated, he read a paper, signed by Mr. Hyams, of the board of works, in which that principle was fully recognised. Now, it did appear, by the proceedings which had recently taken place, that this system was not, in any one point, carried into effect. And when he called for information on the improvements now going forward, he got the estimate of what had been done; but as to the ultimate expense, not a syllable was said about it. When the right hon. gentleman was asked, what expense was likely to be incurred by the visit of the foreign sovereigns to this country? he said, perhaps, 100,000l.; but, on looking to the expenditure of the Lord Chamberlain's department, they would find it 177,000l. more than the preceding quarter—without taking into the account the preparations for a fête in the park, estimated at 15,000l., and making an exceeding of 192,000l. With respect to the fête, the right hon. gentleman seemed to think it was of no importance, whether the royal visitors witnessed it or not, so that they beheld the great preparations making; now, he could not conceive, that it would be any great luxury to them, when they departed, to know that a fine pyramid was nearly erected in Carlton-gardens. Government ought either to have had those buildings ready in time, or they should have prevented them from being prosecuted It was said, however, that much of the expense arose from the circumstance of the Prince Regent not having a palace sufficiently extensive, in which he could entertain the royal visitors. The answer to this observation was, that he had, in point of fact, entertained them in Carlton-house; and, he believed, no additional rooms were erected for the occasion. He looked upon the notice taken of the want of room in Carlton-house, as a sort of hint, that other buildings were in contemplation; but he would advise the right hon. gentleman, before he approved of the erection of certain palaces, which were much talked of, to pause a little. The right hon. gentleman lived in a country here the people thought money matters ought to be attended to—he lived in a country, where, if he thought fit to amuse him, self with raising palaces, he might probably be called to account in a way that would not be very pleasant. In the present quarter, as compared with the quarters ending the 5th of July, 1812, and 1813, there was an exceeding of 192,000l. in the Lord Chamberlain's department. For Hamptoncourt, Carlton-house, &c. the expense, in the last quarter, was 71,000l.; of which Carlton-house, alone, engrossed 20,000l. For extra-expenses, on account of the royal visitors, 32,000l. This, he understood, was not for eating and drinking, which would come under the Lord Steward's department, but for furniture. Now, he could not conceive, how so large a sum was necessary for that purpose, when one of the royal visitors resided at the Pulteney-hotel, an expense which he believed government did not defray. The king of Prussia lodged at the house of the duke of Clarence; and, as he understood from public report, there never were two individuals who cared less, or looked less, for courtly trappings than they did. He, therefore, was at a loss to know how 32,000l. should be expended in necessary furniture. He wished, however, to know, whether all this furniture, so little used, was utterly lost to the public. He should be glad to learn, whether it became a mere perquisite, He understood, that Buckingham-house, where her Majesty appeared, perhaps, eight or ten times a year, had been, on this occasion, almost new furnished from top to bottom? This was a mere pretence for furnishing, since the royal visitors did not, he believed, go there more than twice. With respect to Carlton-house, the charge was astonishing. In this quarter, 20,000l. were called for; which, added to what had already been granted, made, in the course of 15 months, no less than 137,000l. Nor should the House forget, that, when his royal highness became Regent, the sum of 100,000l. was, voted for outfit. Thus, it appeared, no less a sum than 237,000l. had been granted, within a very short time, for the purpose of rendering Carlton-house a splendid palace. And it was worthy of remark, that all the plate, glass, china, every thing, in short, necessary for an outfit, were charged, independently of the 100,000l. voted. What had been done with this sum, he could not pretend to say; but undoubtedly, it was a question which parliament might enquire into without much impropriety. What he had already enumerated, had nothing to do with the department Of the Master of the Horse. Here he found an increase, in the present quarter, of 6,171l. One item, under this head, particularly struck him. It was a charge of 10,000l. for "journeying." Now, as the journeys of the royal visitors were not numerous, this did appear to him a very large sum. In the Lord Steward's department, the excess, in eating and drinking, as compared with the two former quarters, was, in the present, 45,000l. The right hon. gentleman, in conclusion, observed, that he had discharged his duty to the people of England, in making these observations, which, he trusted the House would not pass by unnoticed; for there never was a period when it was more necessary, that the expenditure of the country should be more narrowly watched.

again said, that the right hon. gentleman had entirely mistaken the reason which had induced him to insist strongly on the distinction between the household expenditure; and the political branches of the civil list. He was so far from thinking, that he had sufficiently justified any expenditure, by shewing that it was of a political nature, that his object, in pointing out such heads of expense, was principally to shew, that they were of a nature open to the free and unfettered investigation of parliament. For expenses of a political nature, he and his colleagues were directly and distinctly responsible; while, with respect to the domestic establishment of the Sovereign, the enquiries of parliament had always been limited, by a decent and becoming delicacy and deference. He had endeavoured, in proposing the vote, to give an explanation of those branches of the political expenditure, in which the greatest excess had been incurred, and particularly those which arose out of our diplomatic relations. If any further explanation was required upon that branch of expenditure, he should be very ready to give it; but the observations of the right hon. gentleman had wholly turned upon charges of a very different nature, upon which, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had before offered a few observations, and upon which it was now necessary for him to add something more. He did not mean to impute any want of candour to the right hon. gentleman's observations; but, he wished the House to recollect, what a carnival of general joy and exultation we had just passed through. The right hon. gentleman had represented the whole of this expense, as incurred for purposes of a merely temporary and fleeting nature. The fact, however, was otherwise; a considerable part of the expense was incurred for per- manent services. 22,600l. for additional rooms at Carlton-house, of the same permanent materials and structure as the rest of the edifice. 26,000l. more, for rooms, which, though prepared for the occasion, were so far of a permanent nature, that the principal part of them were constructed in frames, with a view to their being taken down and re-placed, at a very small expense, whenever occasion might require. Another item of near 7,000l. arose from another arrear, incurred under the directions of the late Mr. Wyatt. He was very sorry, that the accounts of that gentleman were not yet in a state to be finally liquidated; but, his inaccuracy, in pecuniary concerns, was already too well known to the House, and had produced great inconvenience both to the public and individuals; but most of all, to Mr. Wyatt himself. It was, however, due to his character to add, that, whatever laxity and carelessness might appear in his pecuniary arrangements, and however blameable such conduct might be thought in a public officer, no imputation could rest upon his disinterestedness and integrity, and that the ultimate loss would fall, not upon the public, but his family. The right hon. gentleman had expressed some wonder how a further expenditure of 20,000l. could be incurred for furniture at Carlton-house; but, he desired to call the attention of the Committee to the particulars of the account before them. About 8,000l. had been expended in plate and jewels, including those honorary presents which are usual on great public occasions. Between 6,000l. and 7,000l. for upholstery, comprising not only the furniture of the additional rooms, but much occasional decoration suited, as it appeared to him, with great taste and judgment for the reception of the illustrious persons who had lately visited this country. One room had been fitted up with ornaments representing fleurs-de-lis, in honour of the king of France; and other appropriate ornaments had been introduced in honour of the other sovereigns, who had been the guests of the Prince Regent. As to the remaining item of 32,000l. for furniture, provided for those illustrious visitors, it must be recollected, that the duke of Cumberland's apartments had been completely prepared and fitted up for the reception of the emperor of Russia, in a stile of magnificence, worthy of their intended purpose. Some expense had arisen from the supposition, that the emperor of Austria would visit this country; and the duke of Clarence's house had been completely new furnished for the occupation of the king of Prussia. Furniture, of considerable value, was sent down to the royal yachts, and to Portsmouth. The right hon. gentleman was much misinformed, if he supposed, that all this furniture went as perquisites to any individual. A claim, indeed, of this kind had been allowed at a Portsmouth, to a very moderate expense, upon the plea of ancient usage; but, in every other instance, the furniture remained applicable to the use of the Prince Regent. In the Lord Steward's department it was naturally to be expected, that there should be a considerable increase, when it was recollected, that, from the time of the arrival of our illustrious visitors, a table had been constantly kept at St. James's for 200 persons, besides the tables in the royal yachts, at Portsmouth and elsewhere. But, on this department he should not dwell, as the right hon. gentleman had himself been willing to give it credit for all practicable economy. On the expenditure of the Master of the Horse, he had made some observation, particularly, with respect to the sum of 10,000l. charged for the expense of journies. But, the right hon. gentleman ought to have recollected, that it was not only the journies from Dover to London and back again, but journies to Oxford, Portsmouth, and other places, which were included in the account. It was also obvious, that the just and necessary increase of royal carriages and horses, employed during the late visit, must have occasioned a considerable increase of expense. He fully admitted the responsibility of the Treasury, as to every branch of expenditure; but, he must candidly confess, that, on this occasion, there had been a hurry of preparation, which did not allow of time for regular estimates to be prepared and examined. If, on an occasion so extraordinary, and so little likely to form a precedent, the Treasury had relaxed a little from its usual strictness, it only sympathized with the general disposition of the nation, and he hoped the House would be inclined to view their conduct with some degree of indulgence.

understood from the right hon. gentleman, that the furniture, though not a perquisite to any person, was intended to be stored up for the Prince Regent. Was it then intended to give 32,000l. worth of furniture to his Royal Highness more than he wanted?

did not know whether his Royal Hihgness wanted it or not; but great part of it being unfit for any rank below that of royalty, the upholsterer could not be expected to take it back.

, after a few words on the subject of the income of the Prince Regent from the Civil List said, that with respect to the works going on in the Parks, the responsibility for them had been expressly taken from the Lord Chamberlain.

would make no observation on what had been said by the noble lord, except congratulating the House and the country on the way in which things seemed to be managed.

, adverting to the extraordinary disclaimer of the noble earl, on behalf of the Lord Chamberlain, of any responsibily as to the works in the Parks, asked who was to father that which hitherto no one seemed willing to acknowledge?

said, that the expense of these works would be defrayed by the Treasury.

. Who gave the orders, and where was the primary authority?

. The estimates of the works were given into the Treasury, and the authority certainly rested with the Treasury.

. Who gave the orders? (Cries of order! order!) He begged pardon, but really, after what had been said by the noble earl, it would be most extraordinary if the right hon. gentleman refused to state who gave the orders.

. This was not a case that admitted of any specific determination as to the particular forms under which the orders for conducting the preparations were to be issued. It was a matter certainly rather more under the cognizance or the Lord Chamberlain than the Treasury. The duty incumbent on those, who had any concern in the management, was to keep within the bounds prescribed by the nature of the occasion, which was such as to make it quite impossible to reduce the whole responsibility to any one person. He apprehended, that such expenses were perfectly sanctioned by the occasion, without its being possible to draw them into any precedent.

. Good God! did the noble lord mean to say, that there was an absolution from all responsibility on this occasion? He had no design to make any attack on the Lord Chamberlain, but he was more responsible than he seemed to think. What could those works be, of which no estimate could be made? It was absurd to say, that no estimate could be made of them.

. It might just as well be said, that his Majesty's ministers were to be responsible for all the expenses and preparations of a fête, as for those now in question. There were some expenses, which came within the direction of the sovereign himself, without the interference of ministers, by their advice and responsibility. It would be pushing a salutary rule to a most absurd extent, to apply it to such a case. He did not, by any means, object to the principle itself, but to its application in this instance.

. Would the noble lord say, that no estimates could have been made out, of expenses, on so large a scale? If they could, he would say it was most criminal not to produce them.

thought the principle of the noble lord, on this matter, most dangerous. It would not have caused any delay in this case, if matters had been conducted in the regular mode by the sovereign, signifying his pleasure to the Lord Chamberlain. What return had the people for the large salary paid to such officers as the Lord Chamberlain, if it was not their responsibility in such cases?

had one other question to ask. Who was the person who communicated with the Treasury on this subject?

had no doubt, that a surveyor of works was appointed on this occasion. There were officers appointed for this purpose, under the Lord Chamberlain, and it was probably from some of these that the communications were made.

said, that if it was proposed to expend 2, 3, or 400,000l. in the erection of a new palace for the sovereign, it would not give such dissatisfaction as this waste of money, by driblets of 20 or 30,000l. at a time.

said, that, even if we had not had the satisfaction of a visit from the illustrious sovereigns, who lately left this country, the public would expect some celebration of so great an event as the conclusion of peace. For his own part, he knew no way in which an impression of the greatness of the event could be signified, except by some such festival as that in preparation. And, if there was any disposition to moralize in the conduct of government, in this respect, it certainly could be for too great attention to economy. He entreated the hon. gentleman opposite, not to be so very severe on the subject, merely because they fancied they had found some flaw in the management. Did they imagine, that it was possible to reduce all the preparations for such a purpose to estimates? It was impossible. As to the naval part of the preparations, he confessed, he did not see much merit in them, until, on riding into the park, he there observed, that they had drawn together an assemblage of beauty and civilization, of which no other metropolis could boast, a circumstance which compelled him to acknowledge their value.

The Resolution was then agreed to; as was also one for granting 100,000l. towards defraying the extraordinary charges of the Civil List, for 1814.

On the resolution, That the sum of 10,074l. 13s. 5d. be granted to his Majesty, to discharge, in the year 1814, the bills due to the several tradesmen, for works done at the Houses of parliament, and the Speaker's house, from the 6th of January, 1812, to the 5th of January, 1814.

took the opportunity of recommending, that the salary of the Speaker should be increased. It was, at present, only what it had been for 24 years; and when the great diminution that had taken place in the value of money, since that period, was considered, it must appear to every one, to be an inadequate remuneration.

The Resolution was agreed to.

rose to call the attention of the committee to the Bill, as one of the greatest importance, under the present circumstances of Ireland. He had not opposed the Speaker's leaving the chair, because he believed that some legislative measure was necessary to restore the peace of that country; but, in respect to the Bill, the only part which he could approve of was the preamble, which stated this necessity to exist. The various enactments of it were not, in his opinion, either justifiable by any sound principle of legislation, or by the state of things in Ireland. For this reason, he was sorry a committee had not been appointed to examine into the question, as the result must have been a very different proceeding from that they were now called on to agree to. By the assistance of such art enquiry, the committee would have been able to understand exactly what was the state of Ireland, which they could not do from the information given to it by the right hon. secretary. Though he had mentioned a great many outrages, and proved a considerable extent of disturbance to prevail, he had not explained the system on which the several illegal associations, which existed in Ireland, were formed, their various ways of extending themselves, or the objects they had in view; neither had he told the House how many there were of these associations. The right hon. gentleman has described the Thrashers, Carders, and Caravats, which infest the central parts of the country; but he has said nothing of the continual disturbance of the peace, the riots, battles, and loss of lives, which are almost daily occurring in the province of Ulster; or of the association of Orange-men, to which this state of the north is to be attributed. In speaking of the Orange-men, it was necessary to draw a distinction between those who were called so because they were Protestants, who were hostile to Catholic emancipation, and those who were associated in lodges, and, by a secret oath, for the purpose, as they hold out, of maintaining the Protestant ascendency; the former did no more than exercise that freedom of opinion, which every one was entitled to enjoy, and were a body of men, very conspicuous for their loyalty, and high independent principles; the latter, though equally loyal, were influenced by the strongest feelings of persecution, in all their thoughts, and actions, in regard to their Catholic countrymen. They were organized under a most perfect system of secret association. Their lodges were governed by masters, and committees, secretaries, and treasurers. A certain number of masters of lodges, elected masters of districts; these masters of districts, elected masters of counties, and cities, and these formed the grand lodge, whose authority, every Orange-man was sworn to obey. Each Orange-man paid, annually, a sum of money to a general und; and, on admis- sion, took an oath, binding himself to obey the rules and orders of the grand lodge, and not to divulge the secret rules of the association. By their processions, on certain days in each year, their resolutions at their meetings, and their general conduct towards the Catholics, they provoked a constant effort, on their part, to vengeance and retaliation; and thus it happened, that, without being the actual aggressors, no large meeting of the people, on public occasions hardly ever took place in the north of Ireland, without a desperate battle ensuing, and the loss of many lives. This being unquestionably the state of the north of Ireland, it became the right hon. gentleman to bring it under the notice of the House, when he called upon it to adopt a measure for preserving the peace of Ireland: he should have proved himself an impartial public servant, and ready to suppress illegal associations of all kinds, whether he found them in the south, as Caravats; or, in the north, as Orange-men. It might not, perhaps, have been necessary for him to introduce any particular clause in his bill directly applicable to this association, because the law, as it now stands, is sufficient to enable the executive government to proceed against it; but he should, at least, have spoken of it in such terms as would have left it beyond all doubt, that the Irish government would prefer enforcing the laws with strict impartiality, to giving countenance to a system, which was destructive of the public peace and subversive of all law. It was the more necessary that he should have taken this course, in consequence of the failure of the declared sentiments of this House, in the last session, to discourage it. The noble lord opposite, (Castlereagh) had scarcely declared, that the government would enforce the laws against this association, when a meeting of the Grand Lodge was held in Dublin, on the 12th of July, and a counter declaration was published, calling upon all Orange-men to persevere, and not to submit to the attempts that were made to put them down. On the very day on which this declaration was published in Dublin, a riot took place in Belfast, originating in a procession of Orange-men, in which three persons were killed. In the course of the year, various other riots had occurred at Kilkeel, at Shercock, and other places; and no less than twenty or thirty lives were lost in these several affrays. Under these circumstances, it was not too much to require from his Majesty's ministers, on this occasion, to renew the declaration which was made in the last session, and to pledge themselves to act upon it, and restore the peace of the province of Ulster. But this association of Orange-men, was the cause of still greater evil than that already described; it had lead to the formation of a counter association of persons calling themselves Ribbon men. This was planned exactly upon the same principles of lodges, and secret oaths, and it appears to have consisted of 20,000 persons, according to a statement of Mr. O'Connell in the month of June, of last year. If then, the right hon. gentleman had given an accurate statement to the House of the extent to which the system of illegal association was carried in Ireland, he would have shown that there were no less than five different bodies, each of them organized by secret oaths, and under a distinct plan of government, in the whole, covering a great portion of the kingdom, and keeping it in a state of continual disturbance. As a remedy for this evil, he calls upon the House to adopt a measure, which is to enable the magistrates, at sessions, to transport all persons found out of their houses between sun-set and sun-rise, and without a trial by jury! Whereas, instead of a measure so unconstitutional, and so very liable to be abused, and to be attended with great vexation and cruelty, he ought to have proposed one which should have been consistent with the ordinary usage of the constitution, and directly calculated to punish, with facility and certainty, all those various offences, which particularly distinguish the character of these several illegal associations which have usurped the dominion of the country, and supplanted the laws of the land. In order to obtain such measure, in place of that which was proposed, the hon. baronet said, he should move to leave out the words in the 7th clause, "without any grand jury, and without any bill found, and without the verdict of any petit jury." He said, he had heard no good reason urged to show the necessity of laying aside the trial by jury; that, in respect to the county he represented, he was sure the juries would discharge their duty without being influenced by any fear of injury for so doing; and, if it should be otherwise in other counties, a remedy might easily be found, in moving the place of trial to some neighbouring county.

said, the Bill, was in all respects, a literal transcript of that of 1807, and those clauses, to which the hon. baronet objected, formed part of it. The right hon. gentleman, entered upon a vindication of the Orange societies, from the unjust aspersions which had been cast upon them; he stated, that they had existed for more than twenty years; that they had been grossly calumniated by the disaffected, who had dared to respresent their views to be nothing less than to destroy the Catholics, burn their chapels, and exterminate their religion. But so far from these societies being liable to the imputations cast upon them, it was but justice to declare, that there only fault was an exuberance of loyalty. Their oath only bound them to support, by lawful means, the Protestant ascendancy, and the government of his Majesty, George the third, and never to join with united Irishmen. Adverting to the remarks of the hon. baronet, respecting the riot at Castletown, the right hon. gentleman justified the calling out of the militia, and read the verdict of the coroner's inquest, which stated, that the person who was killed had met his death by a random shot, from soldiers who were obliged to fire in their own defence.

rose again, and spoke as follows:—

What has fallen from the right hon. gentleman, renders it necessary for me to trouble the Committee a second time. The right hon. gentleman has stated, that the petitions which have been presented against the Orange associations, were the work of the Catholic board; and he has preferred a charge against me, for being the organ of that board. The Catholic board did certainly apply to me to bring the conduct of the Orange societies under the consideration of the House, and I willingly consented to do so, because this board was virtually the representative body of the whole Catholic population; and because I knew the grievance complained of was one which called for investigation and relief. In complying with their request, I did no more than what it is the duty of every member of parliament to do when called upon, by any great portion of the constituent body, to advocate their cause against injustice and persecution. I did no more than what has so frequently been done by the right hon. gentleman, the member for Dublin, when he has proposed motions to the House in favour of Catholic emancipation. So far from feeling myself exposed to censure, I tell the right hon. gentleman, that, if that board was existing, I would readily comply with any other application they might make to me, similar to that which they made last year. But the right hon. gentleman has not only attempted to take away from the weight of my observations upon the Orange association, by endeavouring to connect them with the Catholic board, but from the credit of the petitions against it, which I have presented this session, by saying, that they were the petitions of this board. This fact, I positively deny—they are the petitions of a great number of the most respectable inhitants of the principal towns in the province of Ulster, and owe their origin to the distracted state of society in that province, and not to the advice or exertions of the Catholic board. In respect to the attempt of the right hon. gentleman to diminish the credit of these petitions by his statement, that no Protestant of the town of Newry has signed them, and that in one petitition several names appear to be in the same handwriting; the committee, I hope, will feel, that these petitions should be judged upon only according to the truth of the allegations that are contained in them. To these allegations, the right hon. gentleman has made no reply; be could not do so, because he knows they are true, and that every thing that appears in them can be, if necessary, supported by evidence. In regard to the origin of the Orange societies, and of the cause of the hostility that exists between them and the Catholics, a history of which the right hon. gentleman has been pleased to give the Committee, I have no hesitation in saying, it is incorrect. On this point, there is evidence which places the matter beyond all dispute—the address of lord Gosfort to the magistrates of the county of Armagh in the year 1795. He says, "It is no secret, that a persecution, accompanied with all the circumstances of ferocious cruelty, which have, in all ages, distinguished that dreadful calamity, is now raging in this county. Neither age, nor even acknowledged innocence as to the late disturbances, is sufficient to excite mercy, much less afford protection. The only crime which the wretched objects of this merciless persecution are charged with, is a crime of easy proof—it is simply a profession of the Roman Catholic faith. A lawless banditti have constituted themselves judges of this species of delinquency; and the sentence they pronounce is equally concise and terrible—it is nothing less than confiscation of all property, and immediate banishment,"—This is the recorded history of the first Orange-men, in the words of one of the most upright and respectable men that ever lived; and they fully prove, that the original cause of the hostility between Catholics and Orange-men is not, as it has been said by the right hon. gentleman, the treason of Catholics and the loyalty of Orange-men, but a principle of persecution more violent and more dreadful than ever existed in any other country. I do not, by any means, impute to the Orange-men of the present day the same excessive spirit of persecution; I consider them as a very different order of men, and I am willing to allow them all the merit they assume for loyalty to the King and attachment to the constitution. I am also ready to allow, that in most of the recent riots which have taken place, they have not been the aggressors, and that what is blameable in their conduct, is owing more to a mistaken view of what is their duty as loyal subjects and good citizens, than to any innate or cruel disposition to injure and destroy their Catholic fellow countrymen. I have no desire to see the government adopt any harsh or vindictive measures, in attempting to suppress their association; all I wish and think necessary for government to do, is to have it distinctly understood that they consider the association illegal, and that they will take measures to prevent the laws from being violated, without prejudice or partiality to any description of persons. This, I trust, will yet be done, as the right hon. gentleman certainly deserves credit for the latter part of his speech, whatever the errors may have been that distinguished the beginning of it, wherein he said that he would not encourage the association, that he would use his utmost endeavours to controul it, and that every step should be taken, on the part of government, to prevent irritation, and the recurrence of those scenes which has repeatedly disgraced the north of Ireland in the course of the last year. I wish, Sir, before I sit down, to allow that the statement, which the right hon. gentleman has made concerning the riot at Castletown, appear to me, to place it in a very different point of view to that in which it was represented to me; and it appeared to me, when I called the attention of the House to it. It is very satisfactory to me to find, that no charge is imputable to the magistrates of any abuse of their authority; and that their conduct was intended for the best, and was governed clearly by no other motive than that of discharging their duty in the manner that appeared to them the most conducive to the public peace. From my acquaintance with them, I am perfectly able to bear testimony to the spirit, justice, and moderation, with which their proceedings, as magistrates, have always been distinguished.

said, that the account of the affair of Castletown, given by the right hon. secretary, did not contradict the information which he had received, and had submitted to the House for the purpose of exciting enquiry. It was not the military who had been represented to him as having been to blame, but the magistrates who had improvidently and unwarrantably called them in. By the present act, he did not see how the petty jury were to be constituted, or how they could act.

The House then divided, on sir H. Parnell's amendment, when there were—For the amendment, 6—Against it, 66—Majority against it, 60.