wished to know if it was the intention of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer to produce, amongst the Financial Papers expected by the House previous to the discussion on the supply, the outstanding and unfunded debt, as well as the surplus of the consolidated fund for the quarters ending the first of October, 1813, and the same period in the present year?

answered, that there was no intention to withhold any papers usually expected at the opening of a session: but he must only say, that it would not be possible to produce at this time any accounts relative to the application of the vote of credit for the present year.

, in reply, observed, that all he wanted was precisely the same papers which were produced at this time last year, as connected with the service of the present year.

The general accounts were then moved for, and ordered. On the question for the production of those relative to the vote of credit,

explained, that one million had been carried to the account of the army extraordinaries, and two millions to that of the navy, the details of which could not yet be furnished.

was anxious to know, whether the papers to be produced would explain the enormous arrears in the branch of the army service, which amounted to no less than 18 millions?

explained, that the accounts would shew all the outstanding debts; but as the subsidies were so often paid by drafts from abroad, it would not be possible to say whether they were exactly correct.

rose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a Bill for the encouragement and reward of petty officers, seamen, and marines, for long and faithful service. He briefly stated to the House the object of this Bill. For the reward and maintenance of the seamen and royal marines, when disabled by wounds, or absolutely worn out, a fund was provided by the chest at Greenwich; but for seamen who were discharged after a certain length of service, though not abso- lutely worn out, no reward was appointed. The governor and commissioners of Greenwich-hospital, though anxious to extend relief to that class of claimants, found themselves restricted by the act of parliament, which expressly pointed out those men only who were wounded, disabled,. or worn out, as the specific objects of that fund. The intention of the present Bill was to do away that restriction, and to render the chest at Greenwich, and the Hospital there, available, as far as they would go, to all those petty officers, seamen, and royal marines, whom a certain length of service entitled to claim such benefit. It was also the intention of the board of Admiralty, after a certain length of service, to grant to seamen and royal marines a free discharge, with a pension, instead of that interminable service which now existed; taking care to make the regulations as analogous to those of the army, as, upon a fair and liberal view, the two services would admit. Another object of the Bill was, to consolidate the funds of the chest at Greenwich with those of the Royal Hospital. At present they constituted two nominally distinct establishments, with separate sets of offices, &c. having only one end in view. For the sake of economy, therefore, it was desirable in fact, as they were already in principle. These funds, thus united, would, he apprehended, be sufficient for the expenses likely to be incurred by the arrangements of the present Bill; but should they not cover the whole, that House, he trusted, would not be unwilling to extend its liberality towards so meritorious a class of individuals. He begged to remind the House of one thing: at present, all the funds, out of which the pensions of Chelsea College were paid, were borne by the public; while those at Greenwich were paid by the seamen themselves, out of their wages, &c. The army, on the contrary, suffered no deduction from their wages; and he trusted, therefore, he did not form too confident a hope in believing, that should parliamentary aid be necessary to place the two services upon an equal footing, that aid would be cheerfully granted. The exemplary conduct of the seamen and royal marines, had, on various occasions, called forth their admiration and approbation. They had, indeed, on various trying occasions, especially since the conclusion of the peace, when, from the ships being on distant stations, and other causes, it was found im- possible to discharge them all with equal impartiality, given proofs of the greatest loyalty and devotion to their country. He concluded with moving, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the encouragement and reward of petty officers, seamen, and marines, for long and faithful service."

made some inquiry relative to the limitation of the half-pay, and how far it included masters' mates and midshipmen?

stated in reply, that it corn-prized so many persons of different ranks and service, it was quite impossible for him to give at once the particular information sought for. So far back as last May, the Admiralty called for returns from the different fleets, of the length of services, &c. of those officers. These returns were not yet completed; when they were, it was meant to make a liberal distribution of masters' mates for promotion, and also to select others for further employment: those not discharged would be retained in the ships still in commission.

wished to know the number intended to be so disposed of?

replied, it had not yet been decided upon. As officers of the description alluded to, formed the germ of the future maritime force of the country, the number would be considerable, probably double the number usually on board, for those ships retained in commission.

begged to know whether masters' mates and midshipmen would disqualify themselves for the intended remuneration, if they entered into the merchant service?

said, by no means; it was even meant that lieutenants should be entitled to a similar extension, if they thought proper to avail themselves of it. The object of the Bill was to place them unrestrictedly with pensions, similar to those of the army, and under a certain classification.

suggested the expediency of allowing a sort of retaining stipend to seamen, with a view of commanding their services at a future period, should circumstances render such a step necessary.

said, that to a certain extent the plan in contemplation would form a sort of registry, containing the names of those entitled to reward; and one to which the country could, in case of ne- cessity, resort, and command the services of the parties, or call on them to forfeit their stipends.

highly approved of the plan proposed by the Admiralty, on behalf of a numerous class of persons, who deserved well of their country.

Leave was then given to bring in the Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered for a second reading on Monday.

rose and said, he was extremely sorry to have to call the attention of the House to a subject in which it might be thought that he was actuated by personal motives: he alluded to the proceedings of the recent court-martial on colonel Quentin. As far as related to himself, there was nothing in those proceedings which affected him; for he trusted that his own character stood so perfectly unimpeached by them that it needed no justification. (Hear, hear, hear!) It was for the sake of others, not for his own, that he now addressed the House. He was aware upon what delicate ground he stood; and in his endeavours to do justice to the case, he should be anxious to avoid entering into any topic that was not necessarily connected with it; it was not his intention, in moving for the proceedings to be laid before the House, to complain of the sentence of the court-martial, but to confine himself to the observations of the court upon the conduct of the officers, which were totally unfounded, but which had been made the ground of censure and punishment inflicted upon them. He should abstain at present from any statement of what he had to offer, and in the interim should only move for the proceedings. Perhaps he might find it necessary to ground a motion upon those proceedings, but he did not wish to pledge himself to it. He was afraid he could not, consistently with the rules of the House, make the motion at that moment—("Yes, you can!" was exclaimed by several members). If so, he should then beg leave to move, "that the proceedings of the court-martial upon colonel Quentin be laid upon the table of that House."—The motion being handed up to the chair,

expressed some doubt as to the propriety of its form. He apprehended it would be more regular if converted into an humble Address to his royal highness the Prince Regent; the House however would assist him, if wrong in his recollection.

The motion was withdrawn, and shaped in the form of an Address, which being read and seconded,

said, he felt the greatest astonishment in observing, that while the hon. member was hesitating whether to submit an immediate motion or a notice to the House, he had been cheered on by some members to the former proceeding; and he presumed they, at least, were convinced, by what the gallant colonel had advanced, that the House ought to accede to his wishes. He hoped, therefore, he should not be considered as prematurely entering into the discussion in what he had to offer to their attention. It appeared to him, indeed, that no sufficient ground whatever had been laid for granting immediately the object of the hon. member; and he put it to the feelings, to the judgment of the House, whether there were not a thousand motives for negativing a proposition to submit the proceedings of any court, whether military or civil, to that House, unless very strong reasons were produced for such a proceeding. He, for one, certainly thought it would be most inconvenient to the public service. He did not mean to say that it might not be very proper under some circumstances to yield such information; but here no arguments had been employed, no facts stated, no motives held out, for the adoption of the present measure. It surely would not be contended that the legal proceedings of any court were to be produced as a matter of course, because any hon. member might think proper to come down to that House and move for them, upon the mere assertion that they were unjust to this or that person, without any information by which they could guide their conduct. If he understood the hon. gentleman rightly, he said that when the documents were produced, he should then be able to shew good grounds for calling for them. This was certainly reversing the ordinary proceedings of that House. If the hon. gentleman felt inclined to withdraw his motion, and convert it into a notice, it would then be for the consideration of the House, when that notice was brought forward, to determine upon what course it should pursue; but if he pressed it now, in the absence of all reason and argument for acceding to it, he should feel it his duty, and he thought it would be the duty of the House to reject it.

said, that as the right hon. gentleman wished for some facts that might justify the House in complying with his motion, he would proceed to state—[Here several members called out "give notice."]

observed, that of course any thing which the hon. member might deem important, as illustrating his motion, it was certainly competent for him to deliver.

said, that he was under the necessity of being absent from the country in a few days, as it would be necessary for him to be at Paris. It must be some days before the members could read the proceedings, after they were put in possession of them, and the shortest delay was therefore of importance to him. But if any other member would undertake to give the notice, it might equally accomplish what he wished.

said, he had been desired by an hon. friend of his, the member for Hertfordshire (Mr. Brand) to give a notice, similar to that of the hon. colonel's, for Tuesday next. It would certainly be desirable, however, that he should be present at the discussion.

suggested, that the hon. member might be allowed to make his statement, though the House need not come to any decisive vote upon the question on the present occasion.

said, he did not wish to enter into the merits of the question, till the papers were produced.

asked, if Tuesday would be early enough for the hon. member.

replied, that he was extremely anxious to bring the motion forward on Monday, if the House would permit him. Monday was accordingly fixed, and the notice was entered for that day.

begged leave to ask of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether it was his intention to submit to the House, in the course of the present session, any plan for an establishment for her royal highness the Princess Charlotte of Wales?

said, that he had received no commands from his Royal Highness upon the subject.

inquired, whether, in the Committee on Monday next, it was intended to go fully into the state of the finances of the country, and into those objects for which the supply was required. Before one shilling was voted, the country ought fairly to know the purpose for which it was applied. He, for one, would oppose any grant, not prefaced by the fullest information.

said, that as the successive votes came forward, he should enter into such statements as would give all the necessary explanations according to the best of his judgment.

replied, that the answer of the right hon. gentleman was not a satisfactory one. The first vote that should be brought forward, calling for any large sum, whether to be applied to the naval or military service, he should resist, unless a general statement of the financial affairs of the country was previously given.

The House then went into the Committee.

said, the Speech from the throne referred to arrears; and a paper had been laid upon the table, by which it appeared that, notwithstanding nine millions had been anticipated last year for army extraordinaries, the arrears upon that service alone amounted now to not less than ten millions. Upon the general question of supply, he did not think it necessary to dwell longer on this point; but he trusted a more detailed account how those arrears had accrued would be given than what was contained in a mere slip of paper expressing their amount.

said, it certainly was his wish to give the House as much information as possible. He had already stated, that it would not be possible to enter at present into the details; but he should be prepared on Monday to state, in a considerable degree, the amount of expense incurred under each particular department in the Peninsula. Beyond this, however, he could not possibly go. At the same time, when the House compared what was called the enormous deficiency with the splendid events and advantages that had been gained, it would not think that the money had been misapplied. The expense this year of the war in France and Spain, like the events which that war had produced, were beyond all calculation; but as the subject was now happily at an end, it was his desire to explain, as tar as possible, how those expenses were incurred. Certainly by far the very largest proportion arose from the armies in France and Spain; and till the opening of the exchange on those countries, it was impossible to do more than provide for the immediate exigencies.

reminded the right hon. gentleman, that the House would expect from him a particular account, as to how the military accounts in Spain and Portugal had been audited. Considerable abuses had been stated to exist in the commissariat department; but he was most particularly desirous to know what arrangement had been made with the court of Spain respecting its share of the expenses of the war. It was extraordinary, indeed, to be told, that the payments which had lately been made to that government were nothing but the arrears due to it, and that we should still have a large debt to pay to it. Every considerate person would expect, on the contrary, that we had a large debt to be paid by Spain; and he hoped, that in our paying what were called military arrears, we should not be found cloaking a new subsidy.

expressed his wonder, that if the hon. member had such important information to communicate relative to the management of the commissariat in Spain, he had not addressed it to the proper department. The government was always most anxious to investigate and act upon such intelligence, and he hoped even now he would not fail to bring it forward for official inquiry. Where the hon. gentleman had learnt that we had professed to pay large arrears to Spain, he was at a loss to imagine. Spain certainly owed a large debt to this country; but we were obliged to support the Spanish armies by means of considerable subsidies, and to pay also for their return. The Portuguese army was returned in the same manner; but as to any debt being due to Spain by this country, he was at a loss to understand what the hon. gentleman meant by it.

contended, that if this were the case, it was the duty of the right hon. gentleman to show why one account should not be set off against the other; why, if Spain owed us money, we should be obliged to find money to pay for the return of her troops. Respecting abuses in the commissariat, he would state an anecdote on the subject. A friend of his had made a communication to the late Mr. Perceval of these abuses; but the subject was suffered to remain dormant. When the commissary came home, that was the time to bring them forward; but the gentleman was told, that if he had any particular charge to bring forward against the individual in question, it would be looked into; but having no such charge against that particular person, he declined further interference.

said, that being in the Treasury at the time in question, he must have heard of the circumstance, if it had been correctly stated but he could only say, that it had entirely escaped his recollection. There was no person more ready than Mr. Perceval to inquire into and put an end to abuses. Respecting the Spanish troops, they were in British pay, and those arrears were debts partly due to the troops themselves. The fact was, that the Spanish troops had been raised and served under the faith of a subsidy from this country to support them; at the time of the peace arrears were due to them, or rather to the different contractors who had supplied them with necessaries, and it would have been unjust to have called upon the Spanish government, embarrassed as it was at the time, to make good the engagements which had been made with the English government.

allowed the force of that observation; at the same time insisted that it should clearly be explained, whether the sums which had been paid to the Spanish government since the peace, had in fact been applied to those purposes, or had been used for the despotic objects which Ferdinand had pursued towards his subjects. It was not enough to say, that a sum for a particular purpose had been paid to the king of Spain: it should be shown that it had been properly applied. We engaged to pay the soldiers, not the government. The latter was, perhaps, receiving the stipend due to the former, and applying it to far different purposes from those to which it was intended by both nations; therefore, distinct information was peculiarly imperative, to satisfy those who conceived they had reasons for doubting the justice or propriety of our recent proceeding. And here he could not but congratulate ministers on the acquisition they had gained in the hon. gentleman who spoke last, and who had so lately joined them, as he had been for years occupied in pointing out the necessity of a retrenchment in the national expense. He was sure that hon. gen- tleman would gladly prove his sincerity by probing to the very bottom the nature of these demands, and controling or annulling such parts of them, as would not stand the test of open inquiry.

stated, that the payments from this country had been made not directly to the paymasters of the Spanish forces, but through the medium of the Spanish government. Nevertheless they were so much under the control of the duke of Wellington, that there could be no doubt of their having been applied to the purposes for which they were intended. Since the peace, sir Henry Wellington had been the organ of those payments. With respect to his hon. friend near him, every one who was capable of justly estimating his value, must know how happy he was in having obtained his services.

was desirous to know, whether any sums had been paid since the conclusion of peace? Since the return of Ferdinand to Madrid? If so, why were they not set off against the debt due to us from the Spanish government? Why was it to be supposed that on the conclusion of peace, when all the powers of Europe were anxious to reduce their expenses, Great Britain was rich enough to continue lending her money without any specific object?

replied, that sir Henry Wellesley, since the conclusion of peace, had certainly entered into an agreement with the Spanish government similar to that with the other powers of Europe in the treaty of Chaumont, to provide for the return of their troops to their respective countries.

asked, whether there had not been an actual subsidiary treaty concluded with the Spanish government?

said, that there had never been any positive subsidiary treaty with Spain; although, as the House well knew, two millions per annum had been advanced to that country for some years past, in order to assist her in the contest in which she was engaged.

inquired if the agreement on the part of Sir Henry Wellesley, to which the right hon. gentleman had alluded, was of a loose verbal description, or whether it had been committed to writing?

repeated, that it was similar to that entered into at the treaty of Chaumont with the other powers of Europe, and that the sum to be paid had in contemplation the shortest period, with one exception, of all those allowed for the return of the troops of the respective nations.

observed, that the right hon. gentleman had stated that sir Henry Wellesley had entered into an agreement with the Spanish government. He wished to know with what government? It would probably turn out that the money was paid to the king, and employed in the persecution of the members of the government with which the agreement was concluded. The right hon. gentleman had by no means answered the questions which had been put to him. Had instructions been given to sir Henry Wellesley to conclude the agreement; or had sir Henry Wellesley required any instructions for the purpose of enabling him to enter into the engagement?

said, that the engagement for paying the stipulated sum of two millions annually had been repeatedly before the House.

allowed that it had; but here was a separate engagement. The government of Spain having brought the war in which they had been engaged to a successful termination, and peace having been concluded, we engaged to pay a sum to that government for the purpose of enabling the troops to return to their respective homes. That government was, however, overturned by the king, and it appeared probable that the money was paid into the hands of the king; and that he was thus assisted in the destruction of the very body with which our engagement had been made.

said, that the hon. gentleman perfectly misunderstood the subject—[Hear, hear! from Mr. Whitbread]. He hoped that he might be heard once for the hon. gentleman's twenty times. The hon. gentleman would not expect that the House would be disposed always to hear him and no one else. The fact was simply this—that at the con-elusion of the war, we had bound ourselves to pay to Spain a sum sufficient to enable the Spanish troops to return to their homes. This agreement was exactly on the principle of that entered into by the treaty of Paris with the powers whom we subsidized. It was the same, whether it was made with the cortes, or with the king. In truth, he believed the king of Spain had returned before the conclusion of the treaty of peace. Be that as it might, sir Henry Wellesley did, with the existing government of Spain, whether king or cortes, make an arrangement for the return of the Spanish troops. It was his duty to do so; and the engagement which he had made was confirmed by the British government, although no formal treaty was entered into. Now, how this could be converted into the payment of a sum to the king of Spain to subjugate the members of the preceding government, he knew not.

was happy that the House should be relieved from the monotony of his voice by the beautiful modulations of that of the right hon. gentleman. It was not surprising that the right hon. gentleman should be impatient to make up for his loss of time; and, indeed, he seemed disposed to say as much in his own person this session, as his two halves had done together during the last: a very few days would clear all his arrears in talking. Reverting to the subject in question, it was quite clear that some written document existed, and he was determined, if possible, to have it.

said, that certainly there was a written document, but whether it could be produced was another thing. He had no objection to the hon. gentleman's determination. It had, for twenty years, been the hon. gentleman's vocation to badger the Treasury-bench, by persevering in the practice of cross-questions. Now, for his own part—and he would recommend the same plan to his colleagues—he was prepared to take time to consider the propriety of acceding to demands for papers made by that hon. gentleman, and whenever the hon. gentleman pressed an immediate answer, to say—'We'll tell you to-morrow whether you shall have them or not.'

assured the right hon. gentleman, without considering which of them was the badger or which the terrier of the Treasury-bench, that he should continue the practice which he had pursued for twenty years, of asking questions on matters of public interest, whenever they might appear to him to be necessary, notwithstanding the remarks of the right hon. gentleman. If any of those questions should be addressed to the right hon. gentleman who had just exhibited so much coolness, and the right hon. gentleman should take until the morrow to consider of the reply, all that he would do would be to put the question again on the morrow; and this practice he would pre severe in with as much determination as it was his intention to persevere in the practice of speaking as often as he should think fit on any question when the House was in a committee. He hoped the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not be induced by the evil example of his right hon. neighbour, to withhold information which it was consistent with his sense of public duty to communicate, although it might be asked by one not much in the habit of supporting administration.

trusted that the right hon. gentleman's advice to his right hon. friend would not answer its purpose. It was now evident, that there were more agreements than one, and he hoped the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would see that their production was essential. The right hon. gentleman asked for a large sum, partly made up of the money granted to the Spanish government, when the war was at an end, and when Spain owed us an immense sum. This appeared to him to be a very grave and fit subject for inquiry.

declared, that he had never denied the existence of a correspondence involving the agreement alluded to; he had only denied that there had been any distinct subsidiary treaty. He was persuaded, that the House and the country would never have thought it right that any of our allies who had been fighting under our banners, should be dismissed without the means of repairing to their respective homes.

acknowledged, that the more he heard of this business, the more suspicious it became. He repeated his right hon. friend's hope, that the right hon. gentleman opposite would not persuade his colleagues to abstain from answering any fit questions that might be put to them.

complained of misrepresentation. He never intended to be so presumptuous as to say that he would recommend any information to be refused, because it was asked by the hon. gentleman. All he meant to say was, that if a paper was asked for, the propriety of the production of which he doubted, he would always recommend that the subject should be considered before a hasty compliance was given. In other respects, so far was he from wishing to withhold in- formation from the hon. gentleman, that, if it could be given with propriety, he would be most happy and most anxious to meet his wishes.

The Resolution, That a supply be granted to his Majesty, was then agreed to.

gave notice, that on Tuesday he would move for the production of the agreement which had just been the subject of conversation.

express, ed his readiness to produce the substance of that agreement, although it would be impossible to produce the agreement itself.

presented certain army estimates, by order of the House.

, adverting to the increase which had been made in the pensions of the widows of officers of the navy and marines, wished to know whether the noble lord intended to propose any augmentation of the pensions of the widows of officers of the army?

replied, that the subject was under consideration; but that no specific proposition could be made with respect to it, until the Army Extraordinaries should be brought forward.