observed, that under the existing circumstances of the war with the United States, the committee must be aware of the necessity of our retaining a large naval force. A considerable portion of our present establishment was, in fact, at present employed in operations on the enemy's coast, and in the protection of our own commerce in various parts of the world. It would therefore be unnecessary for him to do more than state the number of seamen which it was proposed to vote; adding this remark, that the following votes would relate not to the extraordinaries of the navy, but merely to the fleet afloat. He then moved, "That, 70,000 men he employed for the sea service, for the year 1815; including 15,000 marines." This Resolution being agreed to, sir George next moved, "That for the wages of the said 70,000 men, the sum of 1,615,250l. be granted to his Majesty; being at the rate of 1l. 15s. 6d. per man per month, for thirteen months."

said, he could not allow these votes to pass without a few observa- tions. It was now but a few days more than three months since the separation of parliament, at which period no person could imagine they would be called together again so soon. What the causes were of their re-assembling, he confessed himself unable to explain. The Speech delivered from the throne had not assigned a single reason for this unexpected occurrence. For himself, he conjectured, and the votes now proposed confirmed him in that opinion, that the want of money was the cause which had induced his Majesty's ministers to advise the calling together of parliament at the present moment. If he was right in this supposition, there was strong ground for requiring that the financial minister of the country should enter into a general statement of our financial situation. He had read the Speech from the throne several times, in the hope to find in it some cause assigned for the meeting of parliament, but he had not been so ingenious as to discover any; and he was persuaded that the oldest member in that House could not recollect an instance of parliament having been called together—the supplies having been voted—three months after that period, without the statement of some reason for such a proceeding, either from the throne, or at least from the mouths of ministers. To deny the present vote would seem peculiarly hard, and, indeed, was impossible, consistently with a due regard for the public service; but he declared, that he could not willingly vote any sum, until some official explanation was given of the nature of our situation. As connected with this subject, he could not help commenting on the unheard-of proceeding which, if the public prints were to be believed, had taken place between the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer and some of those who were called the monied interest. A communication had been made to these gentlemen, that government wanted no loan, with a view to dispel any apprehension that the public securities would be further depressed. Other measures had then been resorted to for the purpose of obtaining money. The country had, however, seen a meeting of the most respectable merchants of London, having in the chair a gentleman, formerly a representative of the city, and so extremely well-disposed towards his Majesty's present government, as to have characterized them as the best and wisest ministers that ever lived; and yet this very individual had declared, that the measures proposed by the best and wisest ministers that ever lived', respecting the bonding system, were the most destructive to commerce that ever had been devised. All this was a strong indication of the great distress of the Treasury for money, and required explanation. He trusted the right hon. gentleman could satisfactorily account for them. But, at all events, he hoped that, before he called upon the House to vote further large sums of money, the right hon: gentleman would break through the silence which he had hitherto observed, and give the committee such an explanation of the real financial situation of the country, as would warrant him and every other gentleman in concurring in the votes proposed to them.

, in reply to the right hon. gentleman's assertion, that it was unusual to call parliament together at the close of a year during which they had already been sitting, observed, that he was sure the committee could not forget how frequently that had occurred. And with respect to the declaration of the causes which called for the meeting of parliament, in his opinion, there never had been one more complete than that comprehended in the Speech with which his royal highness the Prince Regent had opened the present session. The right hon. gentleman, although he had acknowledged that it would be inconsistent with a due regard to the public service to decline acceding to the vote proposed to the committee, had accompanied that acknowledgment with a desire that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would previously enter into a general statement of the finances of the country. If, by that expression, the right hon. gentleman meant that general winding up of the financial accounts which was familiarly termed the Budget, his answer was, that it was impossible to comply with the right hon. gentleman's wish at the present period of the year; because those accounts were necessarily in such a situation, that nothing of an accurate nature could be inferred from them. But if the right hon. gentleman was only anxious to know what were the intentions of the Treasury, as recently alluded to by himself, he should have no objection whatever, although he had meant to bring the subject forward in a few days, to anticipate that period, and to make to the right hon. gentleman's inquiry as satisfactory an answer as was in his power. In doing this, he was convinced that he should shew the committee, that all the right hon. gentleman's surmises and suspicions were unfounded; and that there was nothing in the state of our finances extraordinary or alarming, or which should call upon them to treat ministers with any great degree of severity on the subject.

The right hon. gentleman had condemned the communication which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had thought it his duty to make of the intention of his Majesty's ministers not to require another loan. The fact was, that a false alarm, grounded on vague and unfounded reports, had become so prevalent, that it became necessary to contradict it; and he had adopted the mode which appeared to him the best for that purpose. He repeated, that although in a few days he should have spontaneously explained the financial measures which he had in view, yet that he had no objection whatever to make the statement at the present moment. In the first place, then, it was not his intention to propose any loan, any funding of Exchequer bills, or any measure of a similar nature. All that he should move for would be the grants usual at the early part of the session—the ordinary votes—the annual taxes—and a grant of Exchequer bills, to renew the Exchequer bills which it would be necessary to pay off. He should also propose, that of two sums of Exchequer bills, amounting together to fifteen millions and a half, which were annually renewed from year to year, twelve millions and a half should be provided for; thus considerably diminishing the unfunded debt. Lastly, he should propose the renewal of the vote of several years past, providing for outstanding Exchequer bills.

The right hon. gentleman had adverted to another subject, which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was desirous to explain to the committee. The committee would well recollect, that in 1813 (after some temporary regulations with respect to the warehousing of goods imported into this country) a General Warehousing Act was passed, by which Act goods imported into this country, and subject to a high duty, were allowed to remain in the public warehouses for three months, if not previously taken out by the merchants, either for home consumption or for exportation. In 1809, when the continental system of hostility to our com- merce was in full activity, and in consequence the goods in our warehouses could find no ready vent, it was thought advise-able by parliament to invest the lords of the Treasury with a discretionary power to extend the time to a twelvemonth. Subsequently to that period, and up to the end of last year, this indulgence was freely and liberally granted. After the glorious successes of the allies, however, had occasioned many of the continental ports to be opened, the lords of the Treasury considered it advisable to diminish the irregularities which this indulgence necessarily occasioned, and which threatened the revenue with considerable danger. They felt that the time was approaching when it would be expedient to recur to the ancient system. Under this impression, the lords of the Treasury, on the 25th of November last, issued an order, which he would read. [Here the right hon. gentleman read the order, which stated the reasons which induced the Treasury to fix the 1st of June, 1814, as the period beyond which the special indulgence which they had been accustomed to grant should not extend.] In the month of May, however, several representations were made by respectable merchants, that notwithstanding the success of the allies had opened many of the continental ports to British commerce, yet that the severity of the winter had prevented them from sending their goods out; and they prayed, therefore, for an extension of the time during which they were to be permitted to remain in the public warehouses. The severity of the winter being notorious, and forming one of those especial circumstances specified in the act of parliament, the lords of the Treasury were induced, on the 10th of May, to issue another order, extending the period of their former order from the 1st of June to the 30th of October, accompanying this indulgence with a distinct declaration and notice, that if the goods were not cleared out of the warehouses by that time, the provisions of the Warehousing Act would be strictly enforced. Nothing could be more positive and precise than the terms of this notice, which he would take the liberty of reading to the committee. "In granting this renewed indulgence, however, my lords desire it may be distinctly understood by the parties interested, that their opinion continues the same as to the expediency and propriety of resorting to the period originally limited by the Warehousing Act for goods to remain in bond; and they direct that notices be given to such parties, that unless all goods that have been in bond the time thereby limited, are taken out before the 30th of October next, they positively will be proceeded against agreeably to law; my lords being of opinion, that the indulgence has been already too far extended." Yet, to his great surprise, several persons not long ago represented to him that they had never heard of this order! Others, who allowed that they had heard of it, said, that they did not expect it would be insisted upon. The Treasury, however desirous to diminish the irregularity of the revenue accounts, was as desirous to do this with the least possible injury to individuals. The lords of the Treasury, therefore, and the earl of Liverpool in particular, had several interviews with the persons who conceived themselves to be aggrieved by the determination to enforce the order of the 10th of May; but the apprehended hardship appeared to them likely to affect only a particular description of goods. Among these, the principal was coffee; owing to the three or four years of exclusion from the continent, a great quantity had been necessarily accumulated. The Treasury consented to extend the period of indulgence with respect to coffee to twelve months. Bark, owing to the same circumstance, and to the act of parliament which had prohibited its exportation, had also considerably accumulated, as had likewise barilla. An extension of twelve months was therefore granted with respect to those two articles. The right hon. gentleman, taking his commercial and financial, as he did his political information, from the newspapers and magazines, had talked of the enforcing of this order as a resource to which the Treasury applied in the absence of other means of raising money. The committee would, however, be surprised to learn, that the whole amount of the duties due on the goods at present warehoused did not exceed 1,200,000l. To one half of these goods the extended indulgence had been granted. Of the remaining half, a half would be exported. So that all that the revenue would derive from this 'harsh and violent proceeding,' as it had been termed, would be the prodigious sum of 300,000l.! And, be it remembered, that even with respect to the payment of this sum, a special indulgence had been granted. It was to be paid in three months, by four instalments; so that only 75,000l. was to be paid down. He was persuaded, therefore, that the committee would agree with him, that if it was right to enforce the system which parliament had sanctioned, it was impossible to adopt more mild and cautious measures for the enforcement than those which had been resorted to; and as a further illustration of this, he would state the proportion which the principal excise-able articles affected by this order (upon which, if upon any, it must bear hardly, on account of the greater amount of duty chargeable) bore to the total consumption and export of the preceding year. That of French wine, from the most accurate accounts which could be procured, was 1–30th, of other wines 1–8th, of foreign brandy 1–60th, geneva 1–30th, and rum 1–220th. With respect to the general policy of the warehousing system, he was perfectly ready to admit its value and importance; but this he would say (and it was an opinion which he was prepared to justify by facts), that unless the time prescribed by the Act were observed, and the accounts kept with a strict regularity, the revenue would be very seriously endangered. It was certainly unfortunate, that the persons who had communicated with the Treasury on this subject, were not those who were interested in the property in question; the consequence of which was, that they had not been able to point out any practical remedy for the evil of which they complained, by which, at the same time, the revenue would not be injured; but had insisted on an abstract principle, the justice of which it was impossible to admit, namely, that the indulgence should be unlimited, and that the merchants should be permitted to leave their goods in the public warehouses for as long a period as their convenience might require. Nothing could be more injurious to the revenue than the admission of such a principle. It would be impossible ever to wind up the public accounts. At the present moment, the Excise accounts exceeded a thousand folio volumes! Unless, therefore, a stand was made, and a fair and regular usage resorted to, every thing would be thrown into confusion. He repeated, that he was friendly to the warehousing system; he was even prepared to propose a considerable extension of the indulgence which the existing Act granted; but he considered it indispensable, as a preliminary step, to wind, up matters in conformity to the law as it at present stood. The right hon. gentleman concluded by apologizing to the committee for having trespassed so long on their attention.

declared, that the subject which had just been treated by the right hon. gentleman, was one of the greatest commercial importance, not to London only, but to the whole empire. It seemed the determination of the right hon. gentleman to break up the bonding system. Towards the close of his speech, the right hon. gentleman had certainly evinced a different disposition; but the whole of his argument at the beginning went to show, that the continuation of that system was not consistent with the security of the public revenue. The right hon. gentleman had said, that there were two distinct questions to be solved—whether the intention of government to break up the bonding system was right—and, if right, whether it had been done in a way that was fair to those who were interested. What he particularly complained of was, that the right hon. gentleman, in all his interviews with the parties concerned, had never given a fair explanation of his purpose; and it would not be until to-met row morning that the merchants would be rendered aware of it, by heing informed of the present debate. From all the accounts which he had heard of those interviews, it appeared, that after the merchants had exhausted their eloquence on the right hon. gentleman anti his colleagues, they were dismissed without receiving any satisfactory answer from ministers of their intention. As to the declaration of the right hon, gentleman, that the greatest pains had been taken to apprise the merchants of the determination of the Treasury to enforce the order of the 10th of May, it should be remembered, that since the existence of the bonding system, the same expressed intention had been kept impending over the heads of the merchants in every successive order. Was it strange, therefore, that the merchants should still conceive that the intention would not be carried into effect? Indeed, it was only within two months of the period prescribed by the order of the 10th of May, that any serious apprehensions were entertained by the commercial world, of the determination of the Treasury. The consequence was, that goods were forced out of the country, at a season of the year when it was difficult to obtain a market, and when the rates of freight and insurance were necessarily increased. The committee would, perhaps, allow him to explain the bonding system. What the merchants understood by it was this:—In old times, certain goods paid a duty on importation, and received a drawback on subsequent exportation. By the bonding system, goods on importation were lodged in public warehouses, for the purpose of being either exported, or absorbed into home consumption; and it was only in this latter case that the duty was paid on them. It was essential to the welfare of the mercantile interest that this system should be continued. All the principal ports of France enjoyed a similar indulgence. To the merchants of this country it was indispensable that they should be permitted to import and warehouse goods, and leave them thus warehoused for any number of years, and export them at pleasure, and, in fact, be entirely unnoticed, unless they to what fell from him. The right drew them into home consumption. This privilege the merchants desired, and this they enjoyed, until the right hon. gentle-mall thought proper to break in upon it. It he understood the merchants rightly, they had distinctly expresser their readiness, if any abuse existed, to endeavour to rectify it in any way that the Treasury might point out. But nothing less than the destruction of the bonding system would satisfy them. The consequence was that all the goods warehoused must either be drawn into home consumption, or be sent abroad. Now, of some of these goods there was an accumulation of ten years consumption; and what possible good could be derived from forcing people to carry them away under circumstances of such disadvantage? At some future day he would move for the appointment of a committee, to inquire into the benefits which would result from the establishment of a complete bonding system; and he would venture to predict, that if such a committee were appointed, the commercial interest would convince it of the advantage of such a system. As to the number of books at the Excise-office, if the Customs and Excise-offices did not know how to manage their accounts, it they had 1,000 ledgers, and had got those books into confusion, it by no means followed that the benefits which would accrue to the country from the continuance of the bonding system should therefore be withheld. If government had puzzled themselves with the forms of office, it by no means followed, that the merchant should not have the benefit of placing those immense quantities of goods, for which there was no consumption in this country, in a state of security greater than he could hope to obtain for them in any other place. The confidence of foreigners in the stability of this country was very much shaken, by seeing measures enforced, which it was never supposed would be carried into execution, just as any whim happened to come across his Majesty's ministers. On the whole, he most heartily condemned the step taken by government, the produce of which, in a financial view, was so insignificant, and the real operation of which was only to compel our merchants to export their goods against their interest.

thought that the right hon. gentleman had reasons to complain of the manner in which the last speaker had alluded to what fell from him. The right hon. gentleman had not said any thing of breaking up the system, but of substituting for that which was now loose, vague, and undefined, a fixed and settled rule. From observing the importance attached to the question in the city of London and elsewhere, he had expected to receive instructions from his constituents at Bristol on the subject; and it was due to the right hon. gentleman to declare, that he had not even had an individual complaint from any one of them. He concluded from this, either that they had not felt any inconvenience from the measure, or approved of it.

, after the candid observation of the hon. member who preceded him, begged leave to make a remark or two to the committee. What had been called a breaking up of the system, was an extension of indulgence of twelve months, to many of the articles, beyond the time allowed by law. There was no case in which inconvenience had been proved, that redress had not been granted. The rivalship of foreign nations was to be expected, but the advantages of trade here would enable us to meet it. The restrictions on the bonding system at Marseilles were more severe than any enforced in this country. The right hon. gentleman then, in answer to the observation, stating, that there were ten years consumption of articles to be affected by the present measure, assured the committee, that in looking over the joint returns of the Customs and Excise (excepting tobacco), it would appear that in wine and spirits, the quantity on hand was not so very considerable; for instance, the stock of French wine did not exceed three weeks consumption; wine, not French, six weeks; of brandy, not the sixth of a year's consumption; of geneva, not a 30th; of rum, not a 220th. Such was the amount to be affected by whatever regulation was adopted by the Treasury, and of this was composed the aggregate body of mercantile complaint.

alluded to the communication made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in contradiction to the rumour of an intended loan, the mode of which he censured in strong terms. He had reason to find fault with any communication, the effect of which operated to alter the price of the funds four or five per cent. in the course of half an hour. When such communications became necessary, some other mode ought to be resorted to for their promulgation. The motive for contradicting the rumour alluded to, was doubtless a good one: and he begged to be understood as not casting a reflection upon any of the parties, when he stated, that the information, some how or other, got afloat, perhaps from the unintentional conversation of one friend with another: and it was certain, that large funded purchases were in consequence made. A half official paragraph appeared through the vague medium of the newspapers, announcing, that it was not intended to enter into a new loan; but the information, in part, had transpired on the day preceding, and funded speculations were accordingly matured.

said, he would not enter deeply into the merits of the bonding question. The probable result of the proceedings that had taken place would be, that either by petition or in some other mode, the subject would be brought before the eyes of parliament again. He would only remark, that the bonding system seemed to have been generally adopted elsewhere, without being attended with any inconvenience, or danger to the revenue. As to a still more important matter, the financial dispositions for the year, and the manner in which the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had intimated his intention not to demand a loan, or the funding of any Exchequer bills, he thought it would have been better if he had made no communication whatever on the subject. He had no doubt of his having acted with the best motives, and believed that his views were perfectly honourable; but the public had not had the full benefit of the communication. The governor of the bank, and the deputy, had had not made known in the city the right hon. gentleman's intentions on that point. He did not mean to cast the least imputation upon them; but, as it had been observed, the information might easily transpire from friend to friend. It was a fact, that previous to its publication a considerable depression in the funds existed, and that undoubtedly those who were in possession of the minister's views, had it in their power to make money by it. The public itself had not become acquainted with the fact until two days after the communication had been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and great fluctuations had been experienced in the funds. He knew that paragraphs had appeared in the papers, but such might have been inserted for the very purpose of raising the funds, and therefore would not obtain general credit. He completely acquitted the Chancellor of the Exchequer of all intentional fault in this business; but through something or other the effect produced had not been such as might have been desired. The depression in the funds, to which he had already alluded, had, however, been occasioned by a prevalent opinion amongst commercial men that government wanted money. But how, after the enormous grants made during the last session, could reports that a large loan would be wanted originate? This shewed no great confidence on the part of the city in the wisdom or skill of his Majesty's ministers. It was, in fact, saying, that after they had possessed every means and opportunity of ascertaining what supplies would be necessary, they had made erroneous calculations. The right hon. gentleman, however, repelled the supposition that he stood in need of money: but the fact was, that he wanted it. The manner in which he proposed to have it, had been wrongly stated, but not his object; and when he pretended that nine millions would be sufficient, it turned out that he wanted nineteen. If it was asked, why parliament had been called thus early together, the right hon. gentleman was mute; he would maintain that it was not for money, but he made the House feel it by asking for it. Should he object to the present vote, the right hon. gentleman would say that he stopped the supplies of the year, and wished to embarrass the operations of government. Such was not his intention. But he thought that without interfering with the machinery of public affairs, he was entitled, as a member of parliament, to ask the reason why the large sums granted last session had proved insufficient, and additional supplies were wanted? He did not think that proper respect was paid to the House, in merely stating the want of money, without adducing any grounds on which to justify it; and yet that was the course which the right hon. gentleman had adopted. He had not shown what additional services had been performed to render these additional supplies necessary; he seemed to have thought it sufficient to state, that a certain suns was to be voted, without any further explanation in order to obtain it. Was this the result of the liberality displayed for two sessions of parliament towards ministers? Every thing which they had required during that period had been granted them; all had been done for them, in order to bring no check to the exertions of the country in the decisive struggle in which it was engaged. But now affairs stood on a different footing. Now, it appeared, that when they might have obtained large sums, on proving their necessity, they had preferred taking less than was sufficient for their expenditure, and concealing the actual wants of the country from the country itself! At present, he wished to know exactly how much money was wanted to carry on the necessary expenses of the country until the 1st of January next. For this he should vote, but for nothing more. The object of the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to be more extensive: he appeared to wish to get together as much money as he could, in order to put off as long as possible the next meeting of parliament. At what time, and to what period, he intended to propose an adjournment, the right hon. gentleman had not said; neither would he state, it until he should have obtained his money. He had heard the end of February next mentioned; but unless the members wished to be reproached by their constituents with having neglected their interests and betrayed their duty, they would bind the right hon. gentleman to something which would compel him to meet parliament at the beginning of January. The most important considerations were depending on the present period. It was said, that after having completed all the arrange- ments on the continent, we had time to turn to our own affairs; but never had the affairs of this country been in a situation which required more deep probing than the present. To effect this salutary and necessary purpose, it would be proper to appoint a committee, not to make a partial, but a full report on the expenditure of the country. The result of such an inquiry would prove, not that mere economy was wanted, but that extraordinary measures should be adopted, to be able even to form a proper peace establishment. He apologized apologized for the introduction of these topics at this period; it was not his fault if they had not been taken into earlier consideration. A committee, he repeated, should be immediately appointed, to take into consideration the real situation of the country, and to look its difficulties in the face. All those alarms of invasion were now done away—all those unjust aspersions, which attached to men who differed with the existing government, were at an end; and it became the House of Commons to express its sentiments, as the legitimate guardian of the public purse. He felt it his duty to impress upon them the declining state of the finances of the country. He affirmed, without fear of contradiction, that not a moment was to be lost in probing the state of the resources of the nation, and of applying an immediate remedy to the perils which encompassed them. Not a moment was to be lost. A committee ought to be appointed to investigate, not partially but fully, the state of our income and of our expenditure. The result of their inquiries would be, not merely that economy was necessary, for economy was not a word sufficiently large for the occasion, but that some new and extraordinary measure must be adopted to enable the country, even with a peace establishment, to bear the burthens with which it was oppressed.

With respect to the Army Extraordinaries, it would not be amiss now to submit one or two observations to the House. Every year during the last five years, they seemed to exceed in a most surprising degree the estimates laid before the House. In the year 1810 they were stated at 2,750,000l.; the next year a sum of 627,000l. was called for to make up a deficit; in 1311, 3,200,000l. was their stated amount; the year after a deficit of 2,300,000l. was called for. The following years five millions was the calculation, and four millions in addiction were subsequently necessary to meet the claims. In the last year nine millions had been voted, and now ten millions additional were required. Could such a system last? And yet in the Prince Regent's Speech the revenues were represented as in a flourishing state! The ministers had taken the responsibility of putting into the mouth of the sovereign an assertion quite at variance with the fact. He, on the contrary, would assert, that it was in a most miserable state. A more deliberate falsehood was never put into the royal mouth, than to say, that the revenue was in a flourishing condition. For what was meant by a flourishing condition? It was not that they amounted to this or that sum, however high, but that they were adequate to the exigencies of the state. The time was not far distant when twenty millions, nay even ten millions a year, would have been considered a flourishing revenue; but the case was very different now. It was true enough the revenues were great; but such at the same time were the burthens to which they were subject, that they were not equal to meet the exigencies of the country. He had drawn out a statement on this subject, in a paper which he held in his hand, the substance of which he would now state to the House. In this statement he had assumed that peace would be completely established by the 1st of January next, and that all the expenses of the war might be wound up for twenty millions. If, on the 1st of January next, they could consider peace as permanently established, this was the way affairs would stand. Taking the accounts of the revenue as the same with those of the 1st January last year, which he had reason to believe would not be far from the truth; for notwithstanding what the right hon. gentleman had been pleased to say of the flourishing state of the finances, and of the great expected increase, when the accounts were made up to the 1st of January next, the excess above the preceding year would not probably be more than 3 or 400,000l.; taking, then, the amount to be the same as at the 1st of January last, the produce of the consolidated fund would be 38 millions, after making the necessary deductions. To that, add the amount of the share of the lottery, the revenue of the Post-office, &c. and the whole of the income of the permanent and annual taxes would be found 41,591,000l. and not one farthing more. That was all the income of the country. Now, the charges against this income were, 1st, the interest of the national debt, amounting to 35,630,000l.; and 495,000l. the interest of the debt of the emperor of Austria; making in all 36 millions odds. Then there was the interest and sinking fund on 30 millions of outstanding Exchequer-bills, which he would suppose to be funded at 75, a much more favourable supposition, he had no doubt, than the result would justify. This sum funded in the 3 per cents, with the corresponding sinking fund, would give 1,600,000l. There were also the extraordinary expenses up to the 1st of January, taken at twenty millions, which he also supposed to be funded at 75, making an additional interest of a million. A considerable addition to the pension list would also take place in consequence of the peace. Taking it at 1,745,000l. this made the whole of the charges 40,334,000l. But then, in addition to this, there was 600,000l. for Ire land, and when this was taken into account, it would leave a surplus of revenue to meet the expenses of the country, of only 568,000l. for Great Britain. No man in the House could shew him that one farthing more was derivable from the permanent revenue of the country; but it would be necessary to take Ireland also into account in a view of our situation. It was necessary to look all our difficulties in the face, and here the prospect was most lamentable indeed. The revenue of that country amounted to 5,050,000l. or in English money 4,607,000l. Add to this the lottery, and the whole was in English 4,787,000l. Against this there was a charge of 5,289,000l. There was, therefore, a deficiency here of 502,000l. On the whole, then, the affairs of the United Kingdom would stand in this way. The income of the whole of the empire amounted to 46,577,000l. and not one farthing more. The amount of the charges against this sum was 46,312,000l. leaving a balance of only 65,000l. to meet the expenses of the country, and not one farthing more.

If peace could be established by the 1st of January next, not one moment ought to be lost before the House considered how they were to meet the expenses of a peace establishment. As there was only 65,000l. of clear revenue, where was the rest to come from? He was sure he had laid sufficient grounds before the House to induce them to go into this inquiry, except they meant to prove to the country that it was their intention to go on from day to day without meeting the difficulties of the nation in the way which they ought to do. He had been casting about in his mind where the right hon. gentleman was to find resources. He had last year laid his hand on the sinking fund, and by that means saved taxes to a considerable extent, and as he thought, had done much mischief. That right hon. gentleman had vauntingly said, last year, that the country was possessed of a bank of one hundred millions of disposable stock, and he had asked if there ever was any other nation of which the government at the end of an expensive war could put its hand into a fund of similar amount? Now, the right hon. gentleman had put his hand into this bank, and he wished to learn from him what would be in it now, if peace were established to-morrow morning? Why, not much more than 30 millions. We had, therefore, before finishing the war, got rid of all this sum but 30 millions. If the right hon. gentleman took this sum, then to the 65,000l. he would have an additional million yearly; and if to this he added 300,000l. for the excess of this year's revenue above that of the preceding, all that he could have in this way was merely a million and a half. He wondered that the right hon. gentleman, when casting up in his mind how stocks happened to be so low, never came to think of the sinking fund. At this moment the sinking fund was worse by 4,400,000l. than if the right hon. gentleman had never been heard of; for what with the sums he had taken from, and those he had turned from it, instead of 15 millions, there was now only a sinking fund of somewhat above eleven millions. What was the proportion between the sinking fund and the unredeemed debt of the country? If the right hon. gentleman had let it alone, the proportion would have been as 40 to 100. The proportion was now very different. What were, then, the resources of the right hon. gentleman? He might say he looked to contemporary different war taxes. But of the war taxes, besides the property tax, which were not permanent, there was only about six millions and a half; and this was all which the right hon. gentleman could derive from this source, even supposing all the war taxes to be retained. But the right hon. gentleman well knew that many of the war taxes could not be counted on in a time of peace; and if he could find four millions available in such a period, it would be the very utmost. There would thus remain to the right hon. gentleman five millions and a half. Did he think this sum fully equal to all the wants of a peace establishment?

Now this was the state of things, if the country left off war by the period he had fixed on. If the war went on then, things would be much worse, and considerable additions must be made to the black side of the account. Where was the rest, then, to come from? Would the right hon. gentleman have it by loans? That would not do, however. Perhaps what was lurking in his mind as an available resource, was the property tax. He had asked him, on the first or second day of the session, what he meant to do with the property tax, as he himself considered that it expired on the 5th of April next. The right hon. gentleman in answer said, that he (Mr. Tierney) did very wrong to consider any such thing, and that he was not clear that it expired then; but, at all events, nothing would be brought forward on that subject till after the recess. Now, it was well known, that the Bank restriction and war taxes were continued till six months after the signing a definitive treaty of peace. With respect therefore to the property tax, it was continued during the war, until six months after the signature of a definitive treaty of peace. The definitive treaty of peace could only relate to the war then existing. The House had twice pronounced this to be their judgment on this subject, in two distinct acts of parliament. The property tax, therefore, expired six months after last May; for the words were expressly during the war, until six months after the ratification of a definitive treaty of peace, and no longer. Whenever the treaty was signed, that tax was necessarily taken off the shoulders of the people. But, it would be answered by the right hon. gentleman, that this was not the proper time to take this subject into consideration. Now, here he would ask, if they allowed this opportunity to slip, what time would they have for the consideration of this gut stion? He had no difficulty in saying, if an intention was announced of continuing the property tax, that petitions would pour in from all parts of the country against it. He had always thought this a most unjust tax. He was aware that the circumstances of the country had been pressing, but however willing he might be to assist the pressure, he considered himself bound to keep faith with the country, and he was of opinion, therefore, that this tax ought on no account to be continued. He had certainly consented and assisted in increasing it, and he prayed to God to forgive him for it! It was a tax of so unequal a nature in its operation, that nothing but the utmost necessity could justify it. Did the right hon. gentleman not believe that the continuation of the property tax would promote emigration of persons of property from this country? Not only persons of limited incomes would be obliged to emigrate, but much of the capital of the country would necessarily be driven from it. Thank God, the heart of the country was yet sound, and its energies were such that it was still capable of very great exertions! But then, every thing depended on the country having a reliance on the wisdom and good faith of parliament. Parliament could not express their determination in stronger language than they had made use of. The mass of the people of this country looked to the hour of peace as a relief from their difficulties, and as putting an end to all taxes whatever. The property tax could not, indeed, be continued; but other taxes, and very heavy taxes indeed, must be laid on, to meet the exigencies of the country. He believed that in times of peace we must look for a diminution instead of an extension of the amount of our taxation; for he believed that the enormous amount of our war expenditure was a great means of extending our taxation. In this, however; he might be wrong; experience would determine. Again he implored gentlemen to look the difficulties of the country in the face. These difficulties were pressing, and they had not an hour to spare. They had to consider the state of our taxation—what taxes were necessary to meet the expenditure—what retrenchments could be effectual in that expenditure. If the House did not do this, they would not be doing their duty to their country. There was now an end of Buonaparté, and an end of the preponderance of France. Unless parliament probed these matters to the bottom, not many years would elapse before the country would curse them for not discharging their duty. Feeling that every hour pressed, he had thought it his duty to deliver his sentiments on the present occasion; and if he had succeeded in impressing the House with the importance and the necessity of the duty which awaited them, he should consider himself as having done something.

said, that the right hon. gentleman had, on almost every occasion, during the last twenty years, been uttering predictions respecting the finances of the country, similar to those they had heard that night. How far these predictions had been verified the House would judge. He agreed in thinking that, whenever a peace arrived, a view must be taken of the finances of the country; and he certainly hoped that the House would meet the difficulty in the manly manner which had been done by the right hon. gentleman. Nothing was more true than that the difficulty must be met by retrenchments and additional taxes. But he rose principally to exculpate himself from two accusations which the right hon. gentleman had brought forward against him. The right hon. gentleman had chosen to suppose that he, in proposing the supplies last session, had wilfully kept back a considerable expense, which he at the time knew would certainly fall on the country. Now to this he would oppose a direct negative. He had stated to the House, on the first night of their meeting, that he had been considerably disappointed in two branches of the expenditure. The Navy Estimates had fallen short, as he had already said, from various causes not anticipated; such as the return of a number of prisoners with great claims for money, and the American war having forced us to keep up a larger navy than was calculated on. He had likewise stated, that in our army establishment certain expenses had come more suddenly on than was expected. He had also admitted, that the expenses of the war had been beyond all former precedent; but he must beg to remind the House, that the result of the war had exceeded the most sanguine expectations; and he desired them to judge whether the expense, whatever it might have been, was not, if necessary to that result, most amply justified.

The other charge of the right hon. gentleman was still more severe, and he was anxious to exculpate himself from it. The right hon. gentleman had said, that he had put a falsehood into the mouth of the sovereign. The right hon. gentleman had chosen to understand in the Speech what it was impossible the Prince Regent could ever have meant. All that ministers could mean by saying that the finances of the country were in a good situation, was, that the revenue was increasing, which he had proved to the House beyond all means of contradiction. The House would find that the revenue had been increasing from year to year, and from quarter to quarter. On the 10th October 1813, it was 60,786,652l., and on the 10th October last past it was upwards of 63,461,864l. As far as the accounts were before the House, this was indisputable; and it was in the power of gentlemen at once to satisfy themselves. The right hon. gentleman had entered into a long detail of accounts, in order to show that the consolidated fund and annual taxes would not much exceed the permanent charges of the country. Undoubtedly that fact was true. He expected the permanent revenue to increase; but the fact was, that it could not much exceed the charges. But, let the House consider the present situation of the country, with reference to its situation on any former occasion of a similar nature. At the conclusion of the American war, the consolidated fund scarcely extended to the interest of the national debt. What gloomy predictions had on that occasion been made! And in how few years, under Mr. Pitt's administration, did the country regain a flourishing situation! This afforded a hope, that the finances of the country would now also soon be relieved from difficulties. With respect to the period referred to, the taxes corresponding with the consolidated fund were then the sole resources of the nation. But at present we had more than twenty-four millions of war taxes. Supposing, therefore, we added something to our burthens, we had this twenty-four millions, from which a diminution would still be effected.

The right hon. gentleman had stated, that but for him the sinking fund would have been between 16 and 16 millions. But, would the right hon. gentleman lay his hand to his heart, and say, if he thought that the country would have been more flourishing than it was at present, if the sinking fund had been untouched, and from six to seven millions of new taxes imposed on the country? If they should have occasion to call for new taxes, the best preparation for them, was the having forborne to impose any new ones so long. By merely imposing at the return of peace those taxes from which the country had been spared during the last year of the war, the right hon. gentleman's problem might at once be solved. The right hon. gentleman had rather triumphantly asked, what had become of the fund which was to be reserved for the time of peace? That fund had certainly been reduced by the necessities of the country; but there would at Christmas next be sixty millions still remaining, instead of between thirty and forty millions, as had been stated by the right hon. gentleman. Now he apprehended, that if at the close of any former war the most prosperous, any Chancellor of the Exchequer had been enabled to inform parliament that he had 60 millions of stock applicable to the public services, this would have been considered as a most singular circumstance. He was aware that the situation of the country was such as to require a full in vestigation but this could not be done till the establishment of peace, as till then, the permanent expenses of the country could not be known. He, for one, would not shrink from any such investigation. With respect to the property tax, whether it expired next year or not, was a legal question, on which, whatever might be his own opinion, he should think it right to consult those wiser than himself. All that could be argued was, that the tax now granted would expire on the 5th of April next. The revision of this and other similar matters, pledged ministers to an early meeting after the recess. There were so many matters to occupy the attention of parliament, that there was no apprehension of parliament not meeting in due time. Last year, things were very different. In consequence of the absence of his colleague on a service of such importance to the country, all bills of an urgent nature had been brought forward before the recess; but if that was not done this time, the House must again meet in a reasonable time.—[What did the right hon. gentleman mean by reasonable? was asked across the table.] He could not yet fix on any particular day, but it would be much earlier than had been stated by the right hon. gentleman; and he thought the House had no reason for withholding the supply now wanted, on the apprehension of any delay.

On the question being again put from the chair,

rose and said, he could not conceive why the right hon. gentleman was so particularly solicitous that this question should be read. It was a question of supply; and, on any question of that nature, it was the imperative duty of every member of the House to go fully into the subject. No man, who knew any thing of the constitution of the country, could deny this position. But he was not so much surprised at the right hon. gentleman's anxiety to get rid of this question, as at certain observations which fell from him in the course of his speech. It appeared, that he had not yet made up his mind, whether the property tax should be continued or not; he wished to refer the matter to persons whose judgment was more perfect than his own He was absolutely ashamed to hear a gentleman, holding so high a situation, make use of such language in that House, He would read the Act; and then let any lawyer stand up in his place, and state his doubts as to its construction. The Act said, that the tax should commence "from and after the 5th day of April, 1806, and continue in force during the present war, and until the 5th day of April next after the ratification of a definitive treaty of peace, and no longer." He could not imagine who those persons were, whose better judgment was to alter the evident meaning of these words. It was utterly impossible for the legislature to have spoken more clearly and explicitly. The language which they here made use of, did not even admit of adoubt. The right hon. gentleman observed, that it would be a matter of grave consideration, whether the property tax should be continued, or new taxes should be imposed. Now, he must contend, that the subject did not admit of any consideration whatever. For, if they thought proper to continue the property tax, it would be one of the grossest acts of oppression and in justice—it would be one of the greatest breaches of good faith ever perpetrated by the legislature towards the people. There were many objections to this tax, besides the greatness of its amount. It was a tax so extensive, that, by imposing, on it a trifling additional per centage, a very large sum could be procured; in consequence, it always afforded a temptation to ministers to push it to the utmost limit. This formed a very powerful reason for nit continuing this tax—and any other that could be substituted for it, would, he was convinced, be preferable. It was a tax which, in its very nature, was abhorrent to the principles of the constitution. He had never voted for it; and nothing on earth could have induced him to do so. Its provisions were completely hostile to the principles of freedom, and the inquisitorial power which it recognised was horrible. Instead of paying 10 per cent. under that Act, he would willingly pay 15 per cent. under any other, which did not grant such disgusting powers.

The right hon. gentleman stated that he was willing to give information—not voluntarily, indeed—but when he was asked for it. Now, as information was extremely valuable, he hoped gentlemen on his side of the House, would frequently take the trouble of inquiring for it—he trusted they would never be ashamed of paying the price at which, it appeared, knowledge on important subjects could be procured. The right hon. gentleman had observed, that if he (Mr. Ponsonby) depended on newspaper intelligence, he would know as much about the finances of the country as those who studied magazines knew of continental politics. But before the right hon. gentleman had ventured on this sarcastic remark, he ought to have considered the disadvantage under which he (Mr. Ponsonby) laboured. All the ordinary sources of information were shut against him and his friends; land ministers had put nothing in the mouth of his royal highness the Prince Regent, by which they could judge of the motives that led to so early a meeting of parliament. Under these circumstances, he I guessed that they were called together I for the purpose of granting money; and he believed every member of that House would now agree that he guessed correctly. But, though the right hon. gentleman had refused information, his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Tierney) in one of the clearest, plainest, and most luminous I speeches ever delivered in that House, had communicated all that it was necessary for them to know. That speech, he hoped, would awaken the attention, and I open the eyes of the House, if they were I inclined to suffer the subject to pass without proper investigation. The right hon. gentleman declared, that there were sufficient securities to dispel any fear that parliament would not meet soon after Christmas. The Mutiny Act would expire on the 25th of March, and the Bank Restriction Act would cease about the same time. Now, from this statement, he derived the information, that it was intended to continue the latter Act; but he denied that there was any security for the speedy assembling of parliament. Why might not the bills in question be forwarded now? But, instead of proceeding in that manner, what security was there that parliament would not adjourn over to a very distant day? and when they met, they might be told by ministers, that certain acts had a very limited time to run; and then call on them for their renewal, at so short a notice, that they could not be properly considered. If such a principle were acted on, it would be assuming a power of coercion over the House, which could not be too much reprobated.

As the vote then under consideration was connected with the navy, and as that department was peculiarly interested in the war with America, he wished to make a few observations on the mode in which that war was conducted. The right hon. gentleman said, that 70,000 seamen would be necessary for the prosecution of the American war. It might be so: he did not mean to dispute that such a number of men might be required. But this he would say, that there never was a time when the persons concerned in conducting the naval service of this country, came with a worse grace to parliament to ask for this supply; for there was no instance in the history of England, in which misconduct in the naval department was so evident. He did not like to use harsh expressions; he did not wish to couple the navy with the word 'disgrace;' it would be so extraordinary a combination, that he was ashamed to utter it; but he would openly assert, that there were instances of misconduct in the management of the navy, that would disgrace it, if the character of the navy itself—if the glory it had so nobly acquired—did not repel so foul an aspersion. Was there, he would ask, any opposition made to placing in the hands of government every thing they required for carrying on the war with vigour? Was not every thing that was demanded immediately granted?—[The Chancellor of the Exchequer said across the table, 'Yes.']—The right hon. gentleman acknowledged the fact; he knew that every thing had been done which was considered necessary. How came it, then, that such misfortunes had occurred on the lakes of America? How could ministers account for these reverses, when they were enabled to have had a force on foot, equal, if not superior, to that of the Americans? He knew not how these disasters could be accounted for, except by supposing that they originated in misconduct. It was a subject that demanded the most serious inquiry, and he hoped, when inquiry was asked for, that ministers would not stand up and oppose those gentlemen who called for it.

Now, with respect to the war itself, it arose, he believed, from the British Orders in Council. Those orders had been repealed; but most unfortunately, the revocation by this country, and the declaration of war by America, took place within a few days of each other. The Orders in Council were revoked on the 23d of June, and the declaration of war was issued on the 18th of that month: the re-. vocation therefore, could not prevent the commencement of the contest. When war was declared, an Address was voted to the Prince Regent, in which the House declared, that they would support the old established maritime rights of the country, by every effort in their power. No man more cheerfully concurred in that Address than he did; and, he believed, he had the honour of seconding it. On that occasion there was not the smallest difference of sentiment between him and the noble lord who moved the Address. What he then stated he would again repeat—he never would consent to give up the right of search, or any particle of our maritime code. But, he believed, that, at the present moment, there was no question between the two countries on this subject. That question arose out of the relative situation of belligerent and neutral powers. But, there being no belligerents now in Europe, there could be no neutrals and, therefore, there was no likelihood that the question of our maritime rights would be contested. In such a state of things, he was sure that no person would call on them either to declare or to continue war for the assertion of the mere theoretical principle: it would always be time enough to support our maritime rights, when they were attacked. Thus, it appeared to him, that the original cause of the war no longer existed; but other matters had grown up between the two governments, which had been argued with considerable warmth and animosity. He believed the war to be extremely popular. The people of this country, he was convinced, were most favourable to it; if they were polled, a great majority would, he doubted not, be found to approve of it. But, he should be glad to know—to understand distinctly—what they were now at war for? what the sub- ject of hostile dispute, at the present moment, was?—and on what grounds the government of this country would be willing to make peace? He hoped they did not indulge the idea of continuing the conflict, for the purpose of conquest. He would support them to the utmost, in defending our maritime rights; but he would not stir one step in favour of any set of ministers, who looked forward to conquest; because, if they were even successful, he was of opinion that it would be injurious to the country. They did not want colonies; Great Britain already had enough of them; and he was sure, if a system of conquest were pursued, it would be injurious both to the constitution and the finances of the country. But were they convinced that they would be successful, if they proceeded with the war for the purpose of acquiring territory? The information which he had received on this subject, led him to conclude, that they were more likely to fail than to succeed in such an attempt; and the mischiefs that would inevitably be produced, if, having aimed at such an object, this country should fail, might easily be perceived by every man capable of taking a correct view of the subject.

He saw, with great regret, the difference between the language of the Prince Regent's Speech, made at the close of the last session, and that with which the present was opened. In the former, his Royal Highness's ministers made him say, that 'he was sincerely desirous of the restoration of peace between the two nations, upon conditions honourable to both.' This was just such a peace as he should like to see concluded. Now, in the Speech recently delivered from the throne, nothing more was said than that his Royal Highness wished for peace on just and hovourable terms.'—[Hear, hear! from the Treasury Bench.]—It might not be so intended; but when this observation was contrasted with what his Royal Highness said at the close of last session, it certainly assumed a character of greater hostility. The expression seemed to relate more to what was honourable for this country than for America. He meant not to ask his Majesty's ministers how they intended to carry on the war; he did nut seek to know their plan of operations; they, of course, would resist such an inquiry, as improper, if he were weak enough to make it; but he thought they might, with perfect safety, inform him, whether the war was undertaken from motives of conquest? He could see no harm in their making a declaration on this subject. On the contrary, he conceived that it would do much good. If the American government were influencing the people to carry on the war, under the idea that this country entertained a hope of making conquests, a declaration that no such idea was cherished would disarm them, and prevent them from exciting the feelings of their population by advancing falsehoods. As long as the war was carried on, it might be proper to make every possible impression on the enemy's territory; but he wished to learn, whether, any object of permanent territorial accession was contemplated? A declaration of this description would be most useful in showing the animus with which this country continued the war.

said, he could not concur with the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down, in thinking that because the question respecting neutral rights was not, in the present circumstances of the world, of the first importance, there would be no difficulty in making peace; nor did he think it would be well to make peace, leaving that question to be disposed of at some future period. When we had before our eyes the hostile conduct of America (though not openly at war), during the last twenty years, her ready acquiescence in the measures of the late ruler of France, and the zeal with which she had seconded his efforts to ruin England, he thought it desirable, this question should be left undecided no longer. The object of the government of the United States had unquestionably been to expel the English from that continent. For this purpose, the possession of the lakes was to them of great importance; and he could not but condemn the improvidence of the British ministers in neglecting to secure a superiority in that quarter, as on the possession of them must the security of Canada in a great measure depend. America, possessing the sovereignty of the lakes, would command all the Indian nations. If she were not excluded from them, she would get Canada into her hands, expel the English from that continent, and subsequently endeavour to possess herself of our West India islands, and of all the European settlements in that quarter of the globe. The present he considered to be the proper moment for settling this point; and, for himself, though, at his age, he could not expect to remain long in this world, he would willingly embark not only his own property, but that of his posterity in the cause. He wished no injury to be done to America; but he desired to have the British possessions secured. He then adverted to the loose, underhanded manner in which the treaty of 1783 had been concluded, and to the encroachments which the Americans had ever since been attempting. These ought to be effectually guarded against, though conquest in America was not to be desired; for if the United States were disposed again to come under the dominion of England, he did not imagine it would be thought wisdom on the part of the government of this country to accept the change. He repeated it, the present time was the fittest for settling the question which had been so long agitated: the present situation of Europe was propitious to our views. For two or three years at least, nearly our whole attention might be directed towards America. If during that period the means at our disposal were exerted with energy, the Americans might be brought to make peace, on terms which we could with safety accede to; and if the differences which had produced this contest, were not now adjusted, they might hereafter be again brought into discussion, under very different circumstances.

The Resolution was then agreed to:

The sum of 2,286,375l. was next voted for victualling the navy, and also 1,956,500l. for the wear and tear of ships. On the Resolution, that 318,500l. be granted for ordnance for the sea service,

said, that as a large sum was proposed to be voted for the ordnance of the navy, he wished to know how it happened, as he was informed, that in the vessel in which captain Barclay fought or Lake Erie, there was so great a difference in the calibre of the guns, as to occasion much distress, and be one of the causes which led to the destruction of the squadron? Whether, in contemplation of the war, we should not have had a sufficient force to meet the Americans in the lakes, there would be another opportunity of discussing; but he, for the present wished to know from the hon. baronet who had taken on himself the management of the affairs of the Admiralty in that House how this difference in the calibre, in the vessel in question, happened; and whether the Admiralty had not been informed, in a letter from captain Barclay himself, that so various were the calibres, that he had eight magazines to supply these guns, which were calculated rather to incommode than to defend him?

stated, that he knew of no information which had been received by the Admiralty, on the subject alluded to by the hon. gentleman.

asked if no letter on the subject had been received from captain Barclay at the Admiralty?

answered this question. Such a letter had been received, in which the variety of the sizes of the guns were complained of; but how this had happened, why such an arrangement was made, or by whose authority the flotilla had been so equipped, was not known at the office.

observed, it was odd that the secretary to the Admiralty, who, he understood, was but a servant to the board, should know more than one of the lords of the Admiralty. The Admiralty lord who had brought forward these resolutions, knew nothing at all of the business. He, it appeared, was not so well informed as he (Mr. W.) was. But even the secretary himself did not know how ordnance of such different calibres had chanced to be used on the occasion referred to. It could only he accounted for in this way, by supposing no provision at all had been made by the Admiralty; that captain Barclay had been obliged to get his artillery where he could for that service, which he had gallantly performed, though success had not crowned those exertions which he had made, and judiciously made, in despair. He thought it extraordinary that this letter from captain Barclay had not been produced on his trial. In justice to that gallant officer, whom he considered to be a martyr to his country, it ought then to have been brought forward. He hoped it would shortly be produced.

wished the attention of the country was more fixed on the Admiralty than it had been, as their conduct would appear the better for being closely inspected. On the subject of the business on Lake Erie, he was disposed to speak out: he would tell the hon. gentleman, that the Admiralty had had nothing to do with it, it had rested entirely with the colonial department. The lord high admiral and the board had had no concern with it whatever. He could easily conceive that it was a very easy thing to con- demn the Admiralty for that with which they had nothing to do; but he did not hesitate to inform the hon. gentleman who had been so forward in accusing the Admiralty, that he would not exchange his feelings for his, nor his talents, nor his situation, nor his exertions, nor his patience, nor any one thing that belonged to him, for any thing belonging to that hon. gentleman. [A laugh.]

, adverting to the communication received from the late commander on the lakes, said, that no explanation had been regularly received, but merely a statement contained in a letter. With respect to the observations on what the hon. gentleman termed an odd circumstance, that the secretary should, in any case, be acquainted with that which was not known to one of the lords of the Admiralty, he had to remark, that it was not suprising that he, whose business it was to receive and register letters coming to the Admiralty, should, in some instances, be more conversant with their substance than one of the lords, who had only heard them read over to the board. The ship which captain Barclay had fought, was not a king's-ship; it was not one with which the Admiralty had any thing to do; it was not commissioned by the Admiralty, nor till captain Barclay's letter was received, was it known that he was on board of it. With respect to the equipment of the flotilla, he had only to say, he knew nothing of it. It was not composed of his Majesty's ships, it was not manned by his Majesty's seamen, it was not supplied by his Majesty's ordnance, nor was it at all under the direction of his Majesty's Admiralty. It had been asked, why had not the letter of captain Barclay been produced on his trial? He had only to say, that captain Barclay had been assisted to gain evidence in every possible way before the trial came on; but it was not for the Admiralty to dictate to captain Barclay what line of defence he should take: it was perfectly open for captain Barclay to produce that, or any other letter that he thought fit to bring forward; but it was not the duty of the Admiralty to suggest to him what materials might be of service to him in his defence.

, referring to the speech of the last speaker but one, said, he had not proposed to that lord of the Admiralty to change situation, talents, or any thing else with him; and therefore he supposed they must remain just as they were, and for his part he was very well content that it should be so. He had not addressed himself to any particular lord of the Admiralty, but had spoken generally of the board. He thought, there appeared an unusual soreness this session on the part of ministers, and this circumstance would encourage him to persevere in that course of which they complained. Doing this, there would be no ill humour on his part: if it excited ill humour in others, he should nevertheless still do his duty. They had now been informed, that the flotilla on Lake Erie was not his Majesty's, and that it had not been equipped by the Admiralty. He had thought, from the officer having been brought to trial, it must have been otherwise. After all that could be said on the subject, the result was this, ministers had not been prepared for the war in America. It was useless to throw the blame off one department on to the shoulders of another: it came to the same thing in the end, and he was glad he had raised the question.

repeated the assertion, that the equipment of the flotilla rested with the colonial department. Till after the battle between the American and the. Colonial flotilla, government had not received returns of the officers employed.

, as the hon. secretary had said the Admiralty had nothing to do with the flotilla, wished to ask why the Admiralty had not had a sufficient force on the lakes? Why was Lake Erie left to the defence of what, now it had unfortunately failed, was called the Colonial Flotilla? At the commencement of the war, the Americans were much the same as ourselves on the lakes; now they had beat the English off two of them, and we had little reason to boast of our successes on the third. If the Admiralty had had nothing to do with the business of Lake Erie, they were to blame for not having taken a part in it. Had they kept a proper force on the lakes, that part of Canada now in the possession of the enemy might have been saved.

said, if the hon. gentleman had been content to wait a few days for information of the subject now referred to, he would have declined giving any answer on the present occasion, and have waited with anxiety, with confidence, and with eagerness, for the day on which a motion, he understood, was to be made respecting this business, that he might have at once shewn that what had been said to the discredit of the Admiralty, was altogether unfounded. Their proceedings had been grossly misrepresented; and while some invented injurious statements, others endeavoured to give them currency. He thought he had a right to complain, it having been assumed, that because the action on Lake Erie had terminated unfortunately, there was a disposition to throw the blame on the Admiralty, where it was not deserved. If he might be allowed to speak as the organ of the Admiralty in that House, he would affirm, that there was nothing whatever to warrant this assertion. He repeated the declaration, that the Admiralty had not been concerned in fitting out and preparing captain Barclay's flotilla. When the subject was fairly investigated, it would be seen how injurious were the statements which had been in circulation, and how little disposition there was on the part of the Admiralty to recede from their responsibility. The hon. gentleman asked, why were not the Admiralty prepared with a force on the Lakes at the commencement of the war? But the hon. gentleman almost defeated his own argument, by admitting, that when the war broke out, the Americans and the British were in equal strength on the lakes. Assuming this to be correct, would it not have been a profligate waste of the public money to have sent out a force where it was not to be wanted? If government had received information that the Americans were increasing their strength in that quarter, then, he admitted, they would have been guilty of negligence had they not met it by a corresponding increase of the British force; but without such intelligence this conduct would have deserved censure, as a waste of the public money. He was glad the subject would be inquired into. He would at present only say, that any requisitions made from the authorities there were not only met, but in many instances anticipated, and not only to the amount called for, but to treble, and in some instances to more than quadruple the extent thought necessary by the colonial government.

said, that forbearing to send a force to the lakes till it was known the Americans were about to send one, was the way to ensure discomfiture, as our additional force could not arrive in time. At war with America, the Admiralty should have known the American government would not fail to fit out a flotilla on Lake Erie, in furtherance of their views on our possessions, but particularly on Upper Canada. They ought to have foreseen, and to have provided against the danger, whether the requisitions of the colonial government had been anticipated or not. If his information was correct, much that was useless had been sent out, and little that was found useful. If this was the best explanation that could be given, he could not say much for the defence set up by the Admiralty.

denied, that the explanatory statement he had made had been offered as a defence. He had purposely reserved himself for a time, when, looking at all parts of the transactions which had become objects of attention, he should be able to shew, that all the rumours circulated to the prejudice of the Admiralty were as unfounded as the last statement of the hon. gentleman, that much had been sent out that was useless, but little that was useful. This, on the most satisfactory evidence, he could positively contradict; and he thought he should be able to prove, that all the other reports hostile to the Admiralty were as deeply erroneous.

The Resolution was then agreed to. On the Resolution, "That the sum of two millions be granted to his Majesty, towards paying off and discharging the debt of the navy,"

said, he had understood that, twelve or fourteen months ago, some ships had been constructed to be sent out in frames to Lake Ontario. He should be glad to hear that the information he had received was incorrect, that on their arrival in the river St. Lawrence they were found totally useless, and sold by public auction.

admitted it to be perfectly true, that on the advice, and in consequence of a requisition from the admiral in that quarter, and on the information obtained from persons best acquainted with the rivers and waters in that part of America, two frigates and two sloops (without at all putting a stop to the ship building there) were sent out in frames from this country to the river St. Lawrence. This idea had not been taken up by the Admiralty, but in compliance with the requisition of the admiral. The statement that they had been found useless, and sold by public auction, was not at all true. One of them had been carried up the river, and he supposed would be launched on Lake Ontario; but as they required great means of transport, it had become a question with sir James Yeo, whether at that time it would not be more convenient to avail himself of other ships then at hand. As nothing would be lost by postponing their conveyance, they had not then been forwarded to Ontario. Whether one of them had not been taken to Lake Champlain, he did not know. No doubt was entertained of their being found most useful; but it was a question at that particular time with sir James Yea, whether it would not be better to avail himself of other vessels under his command.

wished to know if sir James Yeo was the admiral from whom the requisition for ships in frames had been received?

replied, sir James was not an admiral, nor was he the officer who had sent the requisition—it came from admiral sir John Warren; and was complied with, without at all paralysing the exertions then making on the lakes.

described the vessels sent out to have been of the most useful description, and added, there was no instance in which the Admiralty had not, in every respect, outstepped the demands of the colonial department.

had not meant to criticise the construction of the vessels, which he thought exceedingly proper, but had wished to know if they had reached their destination. He was glad the information he had received proved to be incorrect, that they had not been sold, and that one had been conveyed to Lake Ontario. He hoped the other three would follow with all convenient speed.

The Resolution was agreed to.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer then moved, "That 1,650,000l. be granted to his Majesty to discharge the remainder of the bills of credit, or other securities, issued by virtue of the Act of the 54th of his Majesty, intituled, 'An Act for giving effect to certain engagements of his Majesty with the emperor of Russia and the king of Prussia, for furnishing a part of the pecuniary succour for assisting his Majesty's said allies in supporting the expenses of the war with France,' together with the interest due thereon."—Agreed to. The right hon. gentleman next moved, "That the sum of 12,500,000l. be granted for the discharge of outstanding Exchequer bills, created under the 54th of his Majesty."

inquired, what was the grost amount, at present, of outstanding Exchequer bills?

said, the amount would be laid on the table in a few days; he believed it to be about 59,000,000l,

observed, that 54,000,000l. was the greatest amount of outstanding Exchequer bills he ever before recollected. It would be well, however, when the account was laid before them, if the amount was not found to exceed the right hon. gentleman's calculation.

The motion was then agreed to; as also another granting the sum of 15,000,000l. and 10,000,000l. for the discharge of the outstanding Exchequer bills issued for the service of the year 1814, charged on the aids of that year outstanding and undischarged.

rose, in pursuance of his notice, to call the attention of the House to the merits of a most distinguished officer, who, in the midst of a career of military glory, had fallen in the service of his country—he meant major-general Ross. In the short sketch which he should give of that gallant officer's military life, he did not think it necessary to take up much of the time of the House, because his achievements had been so frequently recorded and acknowledged by parliament, that such a proceeding would be useless: he should only claim their attention to a few of the situations which he had filled till his honourable and brilliant course was closed in death. Passing over the early part of his life, he would commence his remarks by adverting to that period when he served in the campaign in Holland; here he served in the capacity of major of the 28th regiment, and first displayed those talents which afterwards shone with such splendour. During this period, in repelling the attacks made upon sir Ralph Abercromby, the 28th regiment took an extraordinary share, and called forth the strongest expressions of approbation from the commander in chief, who had witnessed the conduct of major Ross, which was particularly marked by gallantry and intrepid daring. Towards the close of the action he was severely wounded; and thus, for a time, quitted the path of glory. In 1800, however, he was again in the field, and signalized himself in various occasions on the shores of the Mediterranean. In the expedition from Sicily to Calabria, he was also conspicuous; and in the battle of Maida, added new laurels to those by which he was already covered. In this battle, the superiority of British arms, and the superiority of British bayonets over the French, which had never since been withstood, was triumphantly manifested. The 28th regiment, on this occasion, by an admirable movement on the flank of the enemy, commenced that discomfiture which ended in a total rout. In 1807 the gallant general returned to England, and accompanied sir John Moore to Portugal, and from thence attended him in the expedition in which that lamented officer met his death. In the battle of Corunna he again distinguished himself; and having returned from thence to Ireland, he embarked for Spain, and placed himself under the command of the duke of Wellington; was with him in the battle of Vittoria, and exhibited such proofs of innate talent, that he was selected to take the separate command of a brigade. He now had new opportunities of displaying the energies of his mind; and in the battle of the Pyrenees, by his extraordinary abilities, drew down the particular thanks of the commander in chief; who, in speaking of major-general Ross's division, said, 'It had distinguished itself beyond all former president; it had charged four times, and at each time was headed by the major-general, who had three horses killed under him.' In the attack on St. Sebastian's too, he had borne a full share of the éclat which that achievement had gained; and concluded his high and important services in the peninsula by new instances of bravery and unexampled activity in the battle of Orthies, and in the passage of the Neve. At the close of the war with France, he was one of those officers who were dispatched to America; and here, while he brought his renown to the highest pitch, he terminated his transcendent career. In conjunction with admiral Cockburn, he planned that attack upon Washington, which, in defiance of the difficulties which were encountered, and the superiority of the enemy's force, was crowned with success. Major-general Ross was, on this occasion, chosen to retaliate upon the Americans for the outrages which they had committed on the frontiers; and while he inflicted chastisement in a manner to convey, in the fullest sense, the terror of the British arms, the Americans themselves could not withhold from him the meed of praise, for the temper and moderation with which he executed the task assigned him. The public buildings alone were destroyed, while private property was in every instance respected. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he could not help expressing a hope, that this vengeance thus signally inflicted would be the last, and that no aggravation would render a recourse to similar measures necessary. He would also take that opportunity of stating, that instructions had been sent out to the coast of America, to abstain from further inflictions, unless rendered necessary by fresh enormities; an order which he was satisfied general Ross, had he lived, would have felt sincere pleasure in promulgating. A short time after the affair at Washington, an attempt was planned on the city of Baltimore, and here it was that that event occurred which this country could not too much deplore—he meant the death of general Ross, who, while reconnoitring the force he was about to overwhelm, was struck with a rifle ball, and had only time, ere his eyes closed for ever, to recommend to the protection of his country his wife and family, a protection, in the grant of which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was satisfied the nation would feel the most heartfelt satisfaction, [Hear, hear!] and would not fail to take such steps as were not alone gratifying to those tender connections, but honourable to the country, by which the services of the gallant general were so sensibly appreciated. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving, "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, that he would be graciously pleased to give directions that a monument be erected in the Cathedral Church of St. Paul, London, to the memory of major-general Robert Ross, who, having planned with the greatest judgment, and executed with equal valour, decision, and conduct, in concert with his Majesty's naval forces, an enterprize against the city of Washington, the capital of the United States of America, which was crowned with the most complete success, was killed shortly afterwards, while directing an attack, which also proved successful, upon a superior force of the enemy posted near the city of Baltimore; and thus closed an honourable life, while yet at an early age, and in the midst of a course of the most meritorious services to his country, which deeply laments his loss; and to assure his Royal Highness, that this House will make good the expense attending the same."

apologized for rising a second time on the same evening to offer his sentiments; but, after an attendance of three score years in that House, he was too well aware of its disposition, to doubt its indulgence. He felt a deep interest in the motion which had just been made, for he had been long and intimately acquainted with the brave officer who was its lamented object. He had known his father, who highly distinguished himself in the campaigns of 1757 and 1758, and under whose immediate instruction this young man, his third son, was brought into his military career. No doubt the House would amply recompense his family for the pecuniary privations they must sustain by his loss; but it was not in their power to repair the loss which the country had sustained of such a man. He possessed the happy talent of conciliating by his disposition, and instructing by his example: he possessed, indeed, all those private and distinguished qualifications by which alone a commander could acquire the full confidence of his men. His military knowledge was great and complete; for it had been the result of practice and constant experience; while his foresight and example in the field were such as to excite the enthusiasm and reverence of those whom he led to victory. It was highly gratifying to the House to hear the details of his successes, which the right hon. gentleman had so interestingly described; and he was sure that there could be but one feeling on the subject of the motion.

said, it was impossible for any person who had known so much of the character of general Ross as had fallen to his lot to do, to give a silent vote on this occasion. There never lived a man who deserved more, or who had received more of the confidence and affection of those who served under him, than this lamented individual. Whether in the field, or elsewhere, he was alike distinguished for tenderness and gentleness. In private life there never lived a man more distinguished for social virtues, and for all the amiabilities of human nature. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer having intimated, that it was intended to make pecuniary provision for the family of general Ross, he wished to say a few words on that subject. He was desirous of stating, that it was the wish, the ardent wish, of her who had been dearest to general Ross, to have it understood, that she never sought or expressed a hope, in any way, directly or indirectly, that she or her family should stand chargeable to the country. He mentioned this circumstance, because, perhaps, it might furnish additional reasons for yielding that provision to which every individual must allow the family of general Ross were most eminently entitled. It was impossible to add to the eulogy which had been passed on general Ross: there was one thing, however, which he could not help remarking. He was sorry that the gallant general had been selected as the individual to execute those plans of vengeance, which, he had hoped, had been abolished in civilized warfare. He did not mean to say, that the Americans did not deserve punishment for the outrages of which they had been guilty; but he was sorry, in one sense, that the execution of that punishment should have fallen to general Ross, as there never lived a man who would have felt snore pain in executing such an order, unless impelled by dire necessity. In another sense, he was glad that he was chosen on this occasion, because he believed there was not a man in the British service who would have carried the orders into execution in a manner less injurious, or attended with less mischievous consequences. In conclusion, the right hon. gentleman expressed a hope, that the circumstance of the family of general Ross having never expressed a desire for remuneration, would operate as an additional claim on the liberality of the House.

confirmed the statement of the right hon. gentleman, as to the family of general Ross having abstained from making any demand on the government for remuneration for the severe loss they had sustained, and observed, that he considered this as an additional motive for carrying into effect, in the most liberal manner, the wish expressed by general Ross in his dying moments.

said, that as he had animadverted upon the attack of Washington, on a former evening, he thought it proper to declare, that he never meant to cast the slightest blame upon the conduct or character of general Ross. On the contrary, he fully concurred with the sentiments of his right hon. friend, that it was happy for humanity, and the credit of the empire, that the extraordinary order upon that occasion had been entrusted to an officer of so much moderation and justice.

, jun. passed a high eulogium on the character of general Ross. He compared his conduct to that of a celebrated conqueror of antiquity, and quoted a passage from Sallust, as applicable to his great talents and humanity. It might be said with great justice of the departed general, that although his country could supply others of equal ability in his place, yet his name had been made sacred by his bravery and unfortunate end.

The motion for the Address was then put, and carried nem. con.

presented the Estimates of the Army Services for 25th December 1814, to 24th June 1815, of which the following is an Abstract: