presented to the House, pursuant to their order, the following

Account of the Distribution of the Vote of Credit, for the Service of the Year 1814.

C. ARBUTHNOT.

Whitehall, Treasury Chambers,

14 November, 1814.

wished to know what was intended to be done for those persons who, as officers on the establishment of the chest at Chatham, were likely to be removed by the operation of this Bill; and whether they were to be rewarded if dismissed, and others to be sought for to fill their places, who were entirely new to the concern? If these questions were not satisfactorily answered, it was his intention to move for a list of the names, situations, and allowances of the persons whose offices were intended to be abolished by the said Act.

could not but admit that the interference of the hon. gentleman was perfectly just and natural. He had, how. ever, already prepared a clause respecting these offices; and he had no objection to state, that it was not intended to make any new appointment, or to introduce any new person, but to take them from the chest at Chatham, and place them in the hospital at Greenwich.

was glad to hear that it was not the intention to dismiss those persons, who were mostly old officers, with a small salary for their services. But if there were to be any new appointments, he hoped they would not include a treasurer, or paymaster, to have the public money in his hands; as the sums which had accrued to this establishment, in the course of the last few years, were considerable. He hoped that at least, if there were such an appointment, sufficient security would be required; and that the funds would not, as at another public institution, the Asylum, be left in the power of an individual.

explained, that the main object of the Bill, as he had said on a former evening, was to consolidate the two establishments. The alarm of the gallant admiral respecting the dismissal of the officers, was altogether unfounded. As to the paymaster, it was not intended to be a new appointment; but this officer on the old establishment would be the present accountant of the chest, without having any thing to do whatever with the funds of the hospital. As to the Asylum, the gallant—admiral, as well as himself, being a governor of that excellent institution, must know that neither the board of Admiralty nor the House of Parliament had any thing to do with its internal management.

The Bill went through the committee, and was ordered to be reported to-morrow.

presented the following

Separate and Additional Article to the Treaty of Stockholm, of March 3, 1813, signed at Leipsic, on the 22nd of October 1813.

"His royal highness the Prince Regent consents; that for the Maintenance of the Swedish army upon the Continent, to the number stipulated in the first article of the Treaty of Stockholm, of the 3rd of March, 1813, the Sum of 1,200,000l. sterling shall be paid to his majesty the king of Sweden, in equal payments of 100,000l. sterling, from month to month, till the completion of twelve months, and so long as the Swedish army shall remain on the continent, in consequence of the mutual engagements of the two high contracting parties.

"These payments shall be made in London on the 25th of each month, to commence from the 25th of the present month of October, to a Swedish agent, properly named and authorized to that effect, on the part of his majesty the king of Sweden; and in case the Swedish army should return home before the twelve months shall have-expired; the two high contracting parties shall amicably agree as to the amount of the sum to be stipulated for their-return to Sweden."

, before he made the motion of which he had given notice, wished to know, with reference to the power reserved by his Majesty in his treaty with the allied powers, of furnishing either his contingent of troops or a commutation, whether any such commutation had actually taken place?

replied, that no commutation had taken place, and that all the arrangements relative thereto would be made by his noble friend at Vienna.

inquired whether we had actually 75,000 troops on the continent?

observed, that it would be extremely improper in him to state what was the actual amount of British force at present on the continent. At no distant period the whole of the arrangements on that subject would be before parliament.

confessed his surprise at the kind of arrangement which had already taken place. By the treaty between his Majesty and the other allied powers, each power was to keep up a force on the continent of 75,000 men. Now, it was well known that Austria, Russia, and Prussia, would each keep up a force of double that number, without any stipulation whatever. The agreement was, therefore, though burthensome to us, not at all so to them. It was, in fact, nothing more than an excuse on the part of our government to pay money—a practically subsidiary treaty with the continental states. To conclude a treaty by which Austria would be bound to maintain, as well as ourselves, ten ships of the line, and then to claim a commutation from Austria for not fulfilling her part of the engagement, would not be more absurd than to conclude a treaty, by which we bound ourselves, as well as Austria, to maintain 75,000 men, when we knew that we could not, and that Austria must do so. The subject, however, to which he rose for the purpose of calling the attention of the. House, was the production of the papers, which would shew the management of the subsidary agreement between Great Britain and Spain. Our government had for some years, under the cover of a vote of credit, been in the habit of occasionally sending money to the court of Spain, without any intimation to parliament. Such conduct was extremely improper and disrespectful to that House. From what had fallen from his Majesty's ministers, it appeared that certain sums had been paid to the court of Spain at a period so late as to be subsequent to the treaty of peace at Paris, and to the restoration of the present government of Spain. It was also further known, that during the prosecution of the war, large sums had been advanced to the court, which was in consequence considerably indebted to this country. The papers for which he was about to move, would ascertain what agreement had been entered into with the court of Spain subsequently to the treaty of Paris, and to the restoration of Ferdinand the 7th, as well as the amount due from the Spanish to the British government at the same time. The circumstances of the transaction, which these papers would tend to elucidate, were, in his opinion, most extraordinary. Had it been necessary, in case of emergency, to assist the Spanish government in bringing any of their troops into activity against a common enemy, he would have been the last man to object to such a proceeding; but if it should appear (as he was inclined to think it would appear), that at the time when the war in Spain was at an end, when the troops were marching to their own homes, when Ferdinand had returned to his capital, and when every thing was perfectly quiet, his Majesty's government authorized the payment to the court of Spain of considerable sums, although that court was largely indebted to Great Britain; he was persuaded that this country would condemn their conduct, and that they would decidedly pronounce, that in any settlement with the court of Spain under such circumstances, and taking into consideration all the attendant events, if we had strictly fulfilled our engagements, and no more—if we had paid what was due, that would have been quite enough. He was the more anxious that this subject should receive all the explanation which it was possible to give, because, according to all the private accounts from Spain and from France, it was the general opinion in those countries, that the court of Spain, in their late transactions, had been supported and encouraged by the ministers of this country. This was an imputation from which he was sure the House would be solicitous that his Majesty's ministers should have an opportunity of justifying themselves. Unquestionably, no government had a right to interfere with the private arrangements of any other country. But if ever there was a strong temptation to forget the maxims of policy and prudence, it was in the case of Spain; the more so because, unfortunately, notwithstanding the glorious and successful efforts which had been made in that country against the aggressions of France, those efforts had terminated in setting up a government whose policy he would net denominate, and of which he would not even venture to trust himself to speak. The first act of that government was that of hostility to our commerce; and the papers which it was his wish should be produced, would shew whether that act took place before or after the payment of the last sum remitted to the Spanish court by the British government; it would shew whether the former waited to squeeze from us the last sixpence before it manifested its enmity. The hon. gentleman concluded by reading the following Resolutions, and moving the first of them, viz. "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, praying that he would be graciously pleased to order that there be laid before the House, a copy of any agreement entered into between sir Henry Wellesley and the Spanish government, for the payment of any money, by subsidy or otherwise, to the said government, since the conclusion of the treaty of Paris. 2. That there be laid before the. House, an account of all sums of money that have been actually paid to the Spanish government since the restoration of Ferdinand the 7th, and of the dates of such payments. 3. Also an account of the sums at present due by the Spanish government to this country, as far as the same can be made up."

expressed his astonishment at the remarks with which the hon. gentleman had commenced his address. The hon. gentleman seemed to think, that a new principle had been adopted in the treaty entered into with the allied powers, and to consider that our agreement to maintain, in common with them, 75,000 troops on the continent or to pay their equivalent, was a pretext to squander the public money. The principle of that treaty, however, was, precisely the same as that, of all other treaties of a similar nature; namely, that the contracting parties should, in one way or another, be equally burthened. He was still more astonished to hear the hon. gentleman say, that parliament had not been informed of the existence of these stipulations. His memory perfectly failed him, if lord Castlereagh had not last year stated the precise principle on which the treaty was grounded, and had not added, that the money to be paid would be covered by the vote of credit. But these were Points on which the hon. gentleman had but cursorily touched. His main argument related to what he was pleased to call the subsidy paid to the Spanish government without the knowledge of parliament. When the hon. gentleman heard the facts, it was to be hoped he would confess his error. So far from any money being paid to Spain which it was not in the contemplation of parliament to pay, the very sum alluded to by the hon. gentleman, was part of the million voted last year (as it had been voted for several years) to Spain, to enable her to employ and pay her army. This money had been throughout the war issued to the Spanish government, if, after consultation with our ambassador and commander in chief, they thought it would be properly expended. When the war was ended, it became necessary to assist the Spanish government with money to enable their troops to return to their respective homes. The sum, the payment of which was complained of by the hon. gentleman, was a two months instalment of the million voted by parliament, and was paid on the representation of its necessity. It was, therefore, by no means to be considered in the nature of a new subsidy. But, said the hon. gentleman, 'why pay this money at a time when the court of Spain owed you so large a sum?' How did the fact stand when the central government was established in Spain, it was notified to them by the British government, that although the million a year was paid to them for the purpose of assisting them in their exertions by the purchase of arms, warlike stores, &c. yet that the British government expected that, at the conclusion of the war, the long pending accounts between the two countries should be made up. Now, he would ask if it was possible to wind up those accounts at the period adverted to? What would have been said had the British government told that of Spain, 'Dismiss your troops; we know you have not the means of enabling them to return to their homes; but do not expect a shilling from us; and prepare instantly to pay us all you owe?' At that time Ferdinand 7 had been but three or four weeks on the throne, and it was notorious had not the power to release himself from his pecuniary obligation to this country. The hon. gentleman, had, however, concluded his speech with some observations, which astonished him more than all the rest. He had said, that there was a strong suspicion, or at least a general belief, that all the imprudence, and injustice, and tyranny of the Spanish government, was instigated by this country.—.[No! no! from Mr. Baring.] Did not the hon. gentleman say that it was believed the Spanish government had been supported in their recent acts by British authority? [No! from Mr. Baring.]—Did the hon. gentleman then mean to admit that his Majesty's ministers were incapable of instigating the acts which he had described? If so, then he had perfectly mistaken him; he begged his pardon, and the dispute between them on that topic was at an end.

said, that he certainly never intended to impute to the British government that they had instigated the court of Spain to the commission of the acts of which they had recently been guilty. What he had said was, that it was the opinion of many persons on the continent, that the king of Spain had been encouraged generally to get rid of the popular part of his government, and to revert to the ancient system.

observed, that if he understood the hon. gentleman correctly, the charge was not as he had originally supposed, but that his Majesty's ministers had induced the Spanish government to return to the old state of things, and to deprive the Spanish people of all political liberty This he most positively denied: he gave it his most unqualified denial. Perfectly agreeing with the hon. gentleman, that it was unjustifiable to interfere with the internal concerns of a foreign government, he would add, that if interference could by possibility be excused, it would be in a case in which it was directed to the amelioration and not to the deterioration of the condition of the people. As to the motion of the hon. gentleman, as his right hon. friend near him had intimated his intention of laying on the table a paper explanatory of the subject, he should move the previous question upon it.

inquired the nature of the paper which the right hon. gentleman opposite intended to lay before the House.

read it. It was an extract of a dispatch from lord Castlereagh to Sir Henry Wellesley, dated the 30th of July, 1814, directing the payment of a two months instalment of the subsidy to the Spanish government.

contended, that this paper did not comprehend all the information of which it was necessary that the House should be in possession. It appeared by it, that sir Henry Wellesley had previously issued a sum of money to the Spanish court. It was the agreement to do this for which his hon. friend had moved. The dispatch of the noble lord was dated the 30th of last July. It was very extraordinary that an advance should be made to the Spanish government so long after the conclusion of the treaty of Paris. This would be more evident, if the situation of the Spanish armies was considered at the time that this advance had been made. There were at that time four Spanish armies embodied; three in Spain, the fourth, consisting of 14 or 15,000 men, serving under the duke of Wellington at Thoulouse. When the British government issued money to any foreign power for a particular purpose, it was the duty of the person through whose hands the money passed, to see that it was faithfully applied to the object for which it was intended. This, however, was far from having been the case; as he had been informed through those channels to which (his Majesty's ministers refusing to open any other) he had been obliged to resort, namely, newspapers, gazettes, and other sources of public information, which the court of Spain, in common with all other despotic governments, appeared willing, if they could, utterly to extinguish; well knowing that as long as a press tolerably free and well informed continued to exist in any country, it was impossible that the people of that country should be wholly broken down and subjugated. He would state what be had heard of the situation of the Spanish troops in France returning to their own country. So far were they from having been supported by the Spanish commissariat (for which pretended purpose the money was advanced by this country), that they were actually fed by the British commissariat, because they must otherwise have starved! With respect to the Spanish troops in Spain, he wished to ask whether the money which had been advanced by the British government, had not been employed by the Spanish government for the purpose of marching an army under general Elio to Madrid, in order to extinguish all that existed of freedom in Spain? If that should turn out to have been the fact, it was a deed abhorrent from every English feeling, and an intentional concurrence in which he would not attribute to any man. But certainly he had been informed, that had it not been for British money, that army would have been unable to march—the Spanish government then existing would not have been subverted—and the unhappy Spaniards, who had fought for and maintained the rights of their ungrateful monarch, would not have been sent into exile and to the gallies, a memorable example of the base ingratitude of sovereigns to their people. It was a remarkable fact, that the English ambassador was actually with general Elio and the army which enabled the king of Spain to change the government. [An expression of dissent from the treasury bench.] Was it not so? He had been informed that it was. It was also rumoured that officers bearing British commissions were with that army. At any rate, it appeared that, by the payment of our money, we had not contributed to the quiet return of the Spanish troops to their respective homes, but had indirectly interfered with the internal government of Spain, and that with consequences which were all but sufficient to warrant a violation, in another way, of the principle which he contended ought to be invariably preserved on that subject. These circumstances demanded a fuller explanation than the paper offered by the right hon. gentleman would afford; although he by no means accused the government of this country, or any man in it, of being base enough to assist in the commission of the atrocities which had been perpetrated in Spain, and he therefore thought his hon. friend bound to press his motion.

said, the observations of the hon. gentleman who spoke last seemed to him to have proceeded on a mistake with regard to time. The fact was, that king Ferdinand entered Spain before the treaty of Paris was signed, even before the Convention of the 13d of April, and consequently any sums paid to him on the principle of the advances from this country to the Spanish government, must have been made in the early part of the year. Sir Henry Wellesley was, undoubtedly, present with the king when he entered the kingdom. At that time it was impossible for any one to suppose that he had any intention of overturning the government. No one then knew that he intended to go to Madrid instead of proceeding to Valencia. It would not be denied, that, when the king came, he was thenceforward the government of the country, and that sir Henry Wellesley was bound to go where the king was. He had then declared no intention of either overturning the government, or of prosecuting the individuals of the cortes; but even supposing that he had expressed any such intention, our ambassador would not have been justified in not having any communication with the king because of this intention. In speaking of this advance of money, the hon. gentleman had made use of the words, paid for the 'pretended purpose.' Why was it a pretence? Was it intended seriously to assert, that the British govermnent were anxious for a pretence of giving Ferdinand this money to overturn the government of Spain.? This allowance of two months was also made to Austria and Prussia; four months were allowed to Russia, three months to Sweden, and four months to Portugal. Unless, therefore, the whole arrangement was one which was blameable, it would be necessary to make out a particular case to shew why Spain should be an exception.

, in explanation, said, that when he used the word pretended, he only meant to apply it to the Spanish government. As the Spanish troops that did enter France with lord Wellington had not advanced above twenty or thirty leagues beyond their own frontiers, while the great body of them remained in Spain, he saw no reason why the same allowance should be made for the return of their troops as was made for the return of a large Prussian army, who were at a considerable distance from their own country. He believed that the fact also was, that no part of this money was applied to the purposes of their return, as that was provided for by a separate charge on our commissariat.

was not sure that he rightly understood the subject. He should be glad to know what was the nature of those advances made to the Spanish government before the date of the dispatch from lord Castlereagh? It was strange that the same amount should be paid to Spain for withdrawing a small body of troops from a small distance, as was given for the removal of a large body from a great distance. He hoped that the papers would explain all this; at present, it seemed; altogether to be a very, ill-understood subject. The right hon. the; Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed disposed to furnish the necessary information, and the right hon. gentleman near him (Mr. W. Pole) could not surely object to a motion, the only object of which was to ascertain the nature of the pecuniary advances in Spain, by what authority they were issued, and for what purpose.

said, it appeared from the extract of the letter from sir Henry Wellesley to lord Castlereagh, that sir Henry had been called on by the Spanish government for a continuation of the allowance; and that he, not knowing how to act upon the occasion; had given an immediate payment of 100,000l., referring to his own government for instructions on the subject. No express subsidiary treaty was entered into with the government of Spain, because it was impossible to depend on that government furnishing the stipulated force; and the House therefore always granted the money to be employed under the direction of the British ambassador and commander of the forces, in such a way as the troops furnished should seem to require. Had even the whole of the Spanish forces been within Spain at the time of the peace, considering the ravaged and desolate state in which Spain then was, it would have been improper to have immediately discontinued the allowance, and a shorter period than that taken could not with any propriety have been fixed.

He would take that opportunity of furnishing the House with the explanation he had promised them regarding the arrest of the two Spanish gentlemen in Gibraltar. On the 16th of May, 1814, sir James Duff, the consul for the British government at Cadiz, wrote to general Smith, the governor of Gibraltar, that four Spanish subjects who had written atrocious libels, were about to take refuge in Gibraltar; that one of them had written a libel against the conduct of the British troops at the siege of St. Sebastian, and was therefore an improper person to be sheltered in a British garrison, and he trusted that they would be given up to the Spanish government. On inquiry it was found that two of the persons described had been already taken up, having come into the garrison under fictitious names: General Smith had accordingly given up these men. He would state, not by way of excuse or justification of this step, but as an extenuation of it, that it had been a recognized practice at Gibraltar to give up to the Spanish government persons accused of criminal, offences. If this were not done, Gibraltar would be a perpetual source of vexation to Spain. What should we say, if the Isle of Wight were in possession of a foreign power, and that all sorts of criminals were allowed to take refuge and were protected in it? However, the giving up only extended to those persons accused of crimes against the laws of morality and society. General Smith, however, had not been aware of the distinction; and finding the two men in custody for a breach of the laws of the garrison, had given them up to the Spanish ambassador. General Smith having transmitted an account of this proceeding on the 24th of June last, instructions were sent out to him, cautioning him in future from acting in the same way, and recommending to him only to give up those persons accused of crimes against the laws of society. The error of general Smith was one which he had no doubt would not take place again. General Smith only knew these men from the description of sir James Duff and the Spanish ambassador.—Whatever might be the merit or demerit of the Spanish government, the government of this country had encouraged no such proceedings as those which had lately taken place in Spain, and the rumours referred to by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) were totally without foundation. The paper produced by his right hon. friend, would, he sup-posed, supply the place of the two first parts of the motion. With respect to the third part, he had no objection to the producing the accounts wished for, in so far as they could at present be made up.

Upon Mr. Baring's intimating his intention to persevere in his motion, Mr. W. Pole moved the previous question.

, conceived a subsidy was recognized by the correspondence, the dates of which had been stated: those dates referred to antecedent facts, which it was important to know.

said, the right hon. gentleman misapplied the term subsidy, in applying it to the payment made by sir Henry Wellesley.

wished, whether he was right or wrong as to the word he used, to have the date of the payment made by sir Henry Wellesley, in consequence of the dispatch sent to him, by lord Castle reagh.

had no objection to give the date of sir Henry Wellesley's dispatch on the subject.

said, it was, not the date of it Henry Wellesley dispatch he wanted, but the date put the when the money was paid by him.

said, that the right hon. gentleman seemed to labour under a mistake as to the nature of the payments question. The fact was, that in the last session a million of money was voted for the service of Spain, which was to be left at the disposal of our ambassador, and by him to be paid at stated periods. This sum was disbursed in regular portions, and at the winding up of the affairs in the Peninsula, sir Henry Wellesley applied to lord Castlereagh for instructions as to giving 100,000l. to defray the expenses of the return of Spanish troops into Spain; and in consonance with this application, he received directions to give that sum. There never was any, written agreement or subsidy.

. All I want is the date of the promise to make this payment, and of the period when it was made.

said, he should be sorry if the House separated, thinking that the explanation of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with regard to the conduct of. General Smith, could be accepted as an excuse, or even as an extenuation of his conduct. It turned out now, that on the 30th of June last, lord Bathurst knew of this transaction, and had corresponded with general Smith. And yet, when a question was put last session to his Majesty's ministers, the answer returned was, that they were ignorant on the subject, and that inquiry should be made into it. Again, in the present session, the answer returned was, that they were ignorant, and that inquiry should also be made. Lord Bathurst knew of this on the 30th of June, and answered simply general Smith, that he should do so no more. If general Smith's error could not be excused, but merely extenuated, in the language of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, could there, he would ask, be any excuse for sir James Duff's interference in this business? What business had the British consul to interfere in the delivering up Spanish subjects to the vengeance of the government? In this sir James Duff was certainly to blame. It had been said, that Gibraltar would be an eye-sore to the Spanish government, if persons accused of crimes who took refuge in it were not given up; and it had been asked how we should feel if the Isle of Wight were in the possession of a foreign power, and persons of a similar description were not given up at our requisition? He would ask from what government, except when stipulated by special treaty, were persons accused of crimes given up when reclaimed?. He had even been told, that in. Gibraltar murderers had often not been delivered up on being reclaimed; and that it had been stated that they were considered as under the protection of the British law. It would not make any thing in favour of general Smith or sir James Duff, that one of these men had made use of calumnious expressions against the British forces at St. Sebastian. Libellers, when tried in this country, were often severely, and a great deal too severely punished; but persons accused of libels, flying from the persecuting vengeance of Spain, even though one of them had calumniated the English army, could not in any view of the case be considered as persons whom the governor of Gibraltar ought to have given up, and the conduct of general Smith was therefore wholly without excuse. With respect to the other of these two men, the right hon. gentleman did not know of what he was accused. They did not hear that the slightest order had been sent to sir James Duff not to repeat this conduct, general Smith had been simply told not to do so in future! These two unfortunate persons were now exposed to the vengeance of the Spanish government, in consequence of the instrumentality of two British officers, neither of whom had any right to interfere. [Hear, hear!] These two persons were in the dungeon of the Spanish government, which had been so well characterized by a gentleman, a near relation of the ambassador in this country. It was impossible to suppose that any human being in this country would countenance the wicked proceedings of the Spanish government; and yet our civil and military officers had not only not refused to deliver these men up, but had even lent themselves in aid of that government. All this, too, had been kept so secret in the colonial department, that the coadjutors of the noble lord (Bathurst) knew nothing of it from the 30th of June to this day. The letter of governor Smith should be made the foundation of some proceeding; and he hoped his hon. friend would think proper to move that copies of the correspondence between general Smith and lord Bathurst be laid on the table.

contended, that the hon. gentleman had proceeded further in his animadversions than any thing in the circumstances of the case would warrant. The governor had acted in conformity to what he conceived to be the invariable custom and practice of the garrison, which was to deliver up all criminals who had taken refuge there. In cases of persons who were pursued for crimes or acts of moral turpitude, the rule was certainly a good one; but doubts might be entertained whether it ought to be extended to other instances; and whether persons, merely guilty of libels or sedition, ought to be delivered up. In this view, his Majesty's ministers had considered that the governor of Gibraltar had, in surrendering to the Spanish government the two individuals in question, violated the spirit of his instructions; and had therefore ordered him to desist from such a practice in future, in terms which marked their reprehension of his conduct.

said, that on looking to the letter of lord Castlereagh, it would be found that the payment to the Spanish government could not have been made till three or four months after the 23rd of April. Lord Castlereagh's instructions were dated 30th of July, and they could not have been executed till deep in the month of August. If this payment was made after all the different troops had arrived in their different villages and districts, it could be attended only with the operation of aiding the Spanish government in the designs against its subjects. When the date of the payment was attended to, he saw no reason why our claims against the court of Spain should not have been set off against it. He should consent to withdraw the first motion, contenting himself with the second and third.

, in justification of the conduct of sir James Duff, which had been condemned by an hon. gentleman, said, that he had merely written to the governor of Gibraltar to state, that the persons who had taken refuge in the garrison were not persons whom it would be proper to allow to remain there. He had given no instructions, however, that these persons should be given up to the court of. Spain. Under these circumstances, so far was he from considering sir James Duff reprehensible, that he thought his conduct was much to be commended.

. Instead of being commended, sir James Duff should be se- verely reprimanded for the part he took, as he could only know through the medium of the Spanish governor of Cadiz, that these persons had taken refuge in Gibraltar, whither they had been traced for the purposes of persecution.

repeated, that he had stated correctly the manner in which sir James Duff had acted, which was far from being questionable.

in the view taken of sir James Duff's conduct by the hon. gentleman who had spoken last.

. Will the right hon. gentleman consent to give up the letter of sir James Duff, and that of lord Bathurst to general Smith?

. I do not think that would be advisable.

Mr. Baring then withdrew his first motion. After which the following were agreed to: I. "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, that he will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, extract of a dispatch from lord viscount Castlereagh to sir Henry Wellesley, dated the 30th of July 1814, together with the date of the dispatch of sir Henry Wellesley, to which the same is an answer. 2. That there be laid before this House, an account of all monies that have been paid to the Spanish government since the restoration of king Ferdinand, and of the dates of each payment, so far as the same can be made up. 3. A statement of the amount of the sums of money at present due by the Spanish government to this country, so far as the same can be made up."

rose, in pursuance of his notice, to move for certain papers respecting the Civil List Expenditure, to the production of which he saw no objection. He should make his motion as a motion of course, and reserve any thing he had to say till he understood the grounds upon which opposition, if any, was given to his motion. The right hon. gentleman then moved, "That there should be laid before the House, 1. An account of all charges on the civil list, from the 10th of October 1813, to the 10th of October 1814. 2. An account of the sums applied to the civil list revenue during the same period: and 3. An account of the expenses incur- red in his Majesty's household, from the 5th of July to the 10th of October, 1814."

observed, that the course now pursued by the right hon. gentleman was so wholly foreign to the usual practice of the House, that he believed there was not on record a single instance in which the House had called for such accounts, except after some previous steps taken by the crown, either in the Speech at the commencement of the session, or in a subsequent message to that House. The act of parliament, which passed about ten years ago, had indeed provided, that whenever the charge should exceed a certain sum, the accounts should be submitted to parliamentary inspection. It was impossible, however, that these accounts should be made up, or the precise amount of the excess ascertained, before the current year should have elapsed. The first quarter subsequent to the last settlement, on removing the restrictions from the Prince Regent's authority, expired in April; and the annual accounts had, of course, since closed, on the 5th day of that month. He knew no reason, nor could he divine what grounds the right hon. gentleman was prepared to state, for now departing from what had been the unvaried and constant practice of the House in reference to this subject. It was not for him to set forth the public inconvenience and delay that must result from the establishment of a different rule: it was for the right hon. gentleman who proposed the deviation, to convince the House of the advantages to be derived from it.

said, he had not the slightest objection to state to the House the reasons which had induced him to recommend this proceeding to them. In the first place, he must remark, that the practice alluded to was a practice dictated by no general rule or standing order, and which had, therefore, grownup, because it had never been before discovered to be invenient. Now he could easily conceive, that it was a very proper and convenient practice to be pursued, when there happened to be no excess of expenditure on the civil list for forty or fifty years together: but when the case had been so lamentably altered of late years, when the civil list had broken through every attempt to guard it against confusion, and when it had become a mere mockery to call it an agreement between parliament and the crown, was he to be precluded from all inquiry into its new and growing burthens? The state of that civil list, even as regulated by act of parliament, was a curious one. When the restrictions were taken off the Prince Regent, parliament had recognized, but without justifying, a large excess of arrears in that branch of the public expenditure. The accounts then shewed, upon an average of the preceding seven years, an annual excess of 124,000l. This excess, Mr. Perceval, for reasons best known to himself, instead of fairly meeting, thought fit, and the House, notwithstanding his objections, thought fit to agree with him, to recognize by an act of parliament, in providing, that if there should be any subsequent excess beyond this average excess of 124,000l., though it should be no more than 10,000l., parliament should be immediately acquainted with it. And thus it was, that they had since remained entirely in the dark: at least, however, he was not inconsistent in now endeavouring to let in a little light upon this subject. What was now the case? The last two years abundantly shewed that the crown had taken full advantage of that Act, and that arrears had accumulated till they amounted, not to 124,000l., but to 124,000l. Under these circumstances, was it to exceed his duty, as a member of parliament, to ask the House to look into this affair in good time, whilst they had it yet in their power to check the evil, rather than wait, in order to know the whole extent of their calamity at once? Had nothing occurred in the last quarter which ought to put them on their guard? He regretted that a noble earl was not present (Yarmouth), who had, on a former occasion, spoken as the representative of the Lord Chamberlain's department. That noble lord had then distinctly said, that the Lord Chamberlain did not hold himself responsible in any manner for the expenditure of his department. It thus appeared, that there was a great officer appointed by the crown, and over whose administration of his office ministers had no control. [Murmurs from the Treasury bench.] This was quite a matter of recollection, and he must be permitted to set his memory against that of the right hon. gentlemen opposite to him. Was it to be wondered at, if there should be confusion in a department in which there was no responsibility, and over which there was no control? When he now wished to know what was the actual over the estimated excess, and was told that he must wait till April, would the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer assure him that the excess at that time would probably not amount to more than 10,000l.? If he would, he should remain satisfied, and give the House no farther trouble. But the right hon. gentleman, he knew, would say no such thing. Would he say, that rumour was not a sufficient ground for such a motion as the present? He affirmed that it was; but a ground to be taken at the discretion of the member. He did not mean every vague or casual rumour, but such a rumour as amounted to a settled belief in the public mind that there were great and increased outgoings in the expenditure of the crown. He was for a timely application of parliamentary interference; he was against suffering the evil to go its full length. Did the right hon. gentleman doubt that projects of profuse expense were in contemplation? Had he heard of no plan for a superb palace? And was this a time, with such a view of their financial situation as he had the day before disclosed to them, for the construction of superb palaces? If the Regent did entertain these schemes of costly magnificence, it was the duty of the House to the country, who must pay for the whole, to interfere, and prevent their execution. The right hon. gentleman must have recollected, that there was an account last session of the expense of what was called a cottage, in Windsor Great Park, which then amounted to 33,0001, He should wish to see from the accounts what it was at present. Was he misinformed that, to prevent the greater project of which he had spoken, and which was now in contemplation, from being carried into effect, the right hon. gentleman had tried representations and every thing else—except resignation A rumour of such an addition to the great, growing, and oppressive burthens on the finances of the country, was a sufficient ground for the production of the accounts demanded. Then as to ambassadors. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had told the House that he would in future be cautious of introducing fresh persons into diplomatic employments, that the country might not be burthened with pensions: but had he not, in the case of all the persons appointed since that time, departed from his promise—in the instances of sir Charles Stewart, lords Clancarty and Aberdeen, all of whom had never before been out of the country in diplomatic characters? They would see, on the production of the accounts, whether the enormous appointment of the ambassador at the court of Lisbon was increased, and to what amount, by the expenses of outfit. We should then see the expense of the plate with which Mr. Canning was to be furnished. The House would also see, if the accounts of the civil list were investigated, how the 36,000l. to be given for a house at Paris for lord Wellington was to be paid. The present state of affairs in France was not, surely, one in which any one would chuse to invest money in houses. It was true, he had heard that 2,000l. a year was to be paid as the interest of the purchase money out of his grace's salary; but mean time, where was the principal to come from? As to the production of the accounts being opposed, on the ground of the time being improper, the case was this: the Act stated that the accounts should be produced within a month after the expiration of the year in which the excess might take place. Now, the Act happened to pass in February, and the year did not expire till the 5th of April, nor the month after, till the 5th of May; so that the accounts could never be got in any session in time to make any comments on them, unless it was the good pleasure of his Majesty's ministers. Why he should not in the present year have a plain statement delivered in, he did not see. He had shewn grounds for demanding the accounts; he had stated good reasons for believing that the additional sum of 124,000l. allowed by the last Act would be exceeded, especially if the project he had alluded to were persisted in. If the accounts were not often looked into, it would be at last indispensably necessary to appoint a committee, and to come to some specific resolution to what sum the seven heads of expenditures, called the seven classes of the civil list, should be permitted to amount. The sum allotted by parliament to defray the charges of the civil list was 1,030,000l. The amount of the expenditure last year was 1,349,000l.; and if the accounts were delivered to them, they would see that the expense of the present year was much more. The civil list appeared to have increased every time that an account was delivered to the House on the subject; and if there was not an inquiry to sift the subject to the bottom, there would be such a feeling excited against the expenditure of the crown, as no person would wish to see exist. The House should shew the country in time that there was a power which could control the expenditure of the crown; that they had their prerogatives as well as the crown, and would protect the people from the consequences of the profuseness of their rulers. If the motion which he had made was not carried, it would be a mockery in future to attempt any thing in the way of economy.

was of opinion that the right hon. gentleman had utterly failed in assigning any reasons for warranting a departure from that course which had been hitherto found advantageous in the conduct of the public business. He was free to admit to the right hon. gentleman, that he had no hopes of being able, at the expiration of the year, to show any reduction in this branch of the expenditure. On the contrary, he believed there would be found a considerable excess. All the due information would be submitted, according to the provisions of the Act, in a short time. [Here Mr. Tierney said, that a short time would satisfy him.] He did not mean before the expiration of the year, when the accounts were made up. He certainly did think that once a year was often enough to bring this subject into public discussion. The time, however, having been fixed by parliament, it was still more unadvisable 40 introduce a new practice. As to new projects of expenditure, and new edifices on a large scale, he agreed with the right hon. gentleman, that if any such plans were in contemplation, they were most unseasonable, and must necessarily require the previous sanction of parliament, who alone could authorize them. He could further assure the right hon. gentleman, that whenever the time should arrive, when his resignation should be necessary for marking his opinion upon such projects, he should not hesitate to take that step (hear!) No one, he believed, would advise such an undertaking in the present state of the finances; and as it was impossible that it could be carried on but by funds provided by parliament, a previous application to that House would be absolutely necessary. The right hon. mover having been mistaken with respect to the rumour he had mentioned, had failed in the only strong ground he had stated for the production of the accounts. He should, however, shortly advert to the expense of the diplomatic department. The diplomatic establishments not forming part of the regal splendour of the crown, had increased from causes to which he had called the attention of the House. Indeed, as he had before explained, the increase of the civil list expenditure had rather arisen from political circumstances, than from any excess in the expenses of the household. The appointments of sir Charles Stewart and lord Clancarty were of a temporary nature, and took place on unexpected occasions. They entailed upon the country no pensions or after-burthens; and the only satisfaction enjoyed by those persons, was the consciousness of having served their country in a splendid, difficult, and unprofitable department. The right hon. gentleman had fallen into one gross misconception, which he was happy to have an opportunity to rectify, relative to Mr. Canning's mission to Lisbon. The suggestion that he had hastened his departure in order to screen himself from attack, could have very little weight, as there was no place where his right hon. friend could be more ready to appear than in that House. But it was said, that the mission was of too splendid a character. The facts of the case were these: it had become necessary to relieve sir Charles Stewart from this situation, and Mr. Sydenham was appointed his successor. The latter gentleman soon implored to be removed, on account of the state of his health. It surely, then, could not be improper under these circumstances, at a time when the Prince Regent of Portugal was about to return to his ancient territory, which had been defended by British valour in his absence, protected in his passage by a British fleet, allied to British interests, and dependent on our power, to appoint a splendid mission to congratulate him on his return. If this was a proper proceeding, there could, he thought, be no objection to the selection of the individual appointed for this purpose. With respect to the house purchased for the duke of Wellington, it must be the wish of all that he should be respectably lodged; and that the money was in this case well laid out, was the opinion of the persons consulted, and among them the duke of Wellington himself. It had been deemed a more convenient, splendid, and eligible residence than any other house to be found in Paris. The purchase-money was to be paid within the term of four years. Upon the whole view of the right hon. gentle- man's speech, he was satisfied that no peculiar circumstances or considerations of sufficient weight had been stated to convince the House that there existed any necessity for departing from the course hitherto observed, and now sanctioned by an act of parliament.

observed, that the material rumour stated by him, had been verified by the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, namely, that there would be an excess of expenditure in the civil list. Should parliament, he would ask, enter on the question of the civil list expenditure at the present time, or wait till all the members were going out of town? As to the purchase of the house at Paris, never was money more foolishly and extravagantly bestowed. The purchase-money, it was said, was to be paid in four annual instalments. Now here was a sum of 9,000l. extraordinary to be paid in the present year, which alone almost amounted to the sum; in the event of the expenditure of which, in addition to the ordinary expenses, the accounts were to be laid before parliament. As interest of the purchase-money, all future ambassadors were saddled with 2,000l. a year house-rent, a good pretence for extraordinary expenses. The subject of house-rent in Paris, since he had recently been there, was one of the few things on which he was better informed than the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and he would state, that if there was one house in Paris which would fetch 2,000l. a year, he would pay for it himself. However, without differing about a few hundred pounds, the investing so large a sum in a house in Paris, at present, was most improvident. As to the mission to Lisbon, he had not stated that the outfit of the ambassador was more expensive than usual, but that the appointment, which was too large, would be increased by the outfit. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had begun to defend the appointment of Mr. Canning, as if he had laboured to communicate some new information; but he had only stated, that Mr. Sydenham wished to return to this country on account of his health. Was it not the case that Mr. Sydenham merely wished to return on leave of absence, thinking that the charge d'affaires could perform the duties of his office in the mean time? Mr. Sydenham's salary, as he was informed, was to have been less than 4,000l. a year—3,500l. he believed; a letter to signify the reduction having been sent by lord Castlereagh, in consequence of the debate on the civil list. The first thing that was done when lord Castlereagh went abroad, was to appoint a minister on the same mission, the expense of which he had laudably been labouring to reduce, with the enormous appointment of 14,000l. a year! Why was the price of a congratulator (for Mr. Sydenham was sent out to congratulate the Prince Regent of Portugal), which was so short a time ago about 3,500l. now raised to 14,000l.? Every body knew Mr. Sydenham to be a very able person: whether he was eloquent enough for the occasion, he did not know: at all events, he might have got a speech written by somebody else, and have said it off by heart (a laugh). Now the Prince Regent of Portugal, at the soonest, was not expected before the next spring; and it was doubted by some whether he would arrive at all, since he was supposed to be unwilling to expose his aged mother to the fatigue of another voyage to Europe. Next spring, then, would at any rate have been time enough to have sent out Mr. Canning. But, no; this splendid embassy was sent out at a time when we had another minister, supported at a great expense; actually at the court of the Prince Regent in the Brazils; and a fresh and totally superfluous addition of 14,000l. a year, amounting, together, with the charges of plate and outfit, to at least 20,000l. this year, was thus saddled on the backs of the unfortunate people of this country. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had considered the term he had before applied to this transaction, as too harsh and almost unparliamentary. He had undoubtedly called it 'a scandalous job.' The expression would be frequently found upon the records of that House: it was, indeed, quite the appropriate phrase; it was the very epithet in use upon such occasions among all well-disposed christians: but, if it would be more satisfactory to the right hon. gentleman, he would call it an 'abominable' job (a laugh). But if it had become necessary to remove Mr. Sydenham, there were many other Mr. Sydenhams who would have been very happy in the appointment, less able perhaps than that gentleman, and of course less eloquent than the present ambassador. He hardly knew how it happened, but there was not one among the partizans of Mr. Canning, not a single friend enlisted in his squad, if that was a parliamentary word, who had not contrived to get some- thing. Some, who could get nothing better, had taken baronetcies; and if he was not greatly deceived, he had then an embryobaronet in his eye (a laugh). It was like the last lottery, where there were no blanks, but all prizes. He had no doubt of Mr. Canning's dexterity in his new office, and that at least he would furnish an abundance of fine language. Was it not true that the right hon. ambassador had declined accepting any post, till he at length consented to go to Lisbon whenever the Prince Regent should return to Europe? And was it through any suspicion that this event might not take place, that he afterwards listened to the prudent suggestion of accelerating his departure, lest his services should never be required at all? The case was so irresistible, that if the House desired to prove they were is earnest, and were rather determined to stand by the people in their difficulties, than indulge in idle compliments to the crown, they must cheerfully concur with his proposition.

contended, that the right hon. gentleman had completely failed in making out a case to prove the propriety of laying before the House the documents called for. Until the year 1804, no accounts of this nature were ever produced, unless when a message from the crown announced an exceeding in the civil list; although, prior to that period, he believed the arrears, in particular departments, were frequently very great. In 1804, in consequence of seven quarters being due in some of the departments, parliament was called upon to look into the state of the civil list, and a very large sum was voted to cover the deficiency. An act was then passed, by which it was provided, that if any branch of the civil list was more than two quarters in arrear, then the account should be submitted to parliament. Now, it was quite sufficient to mention this statute, for the purpose of shewing ss hat the sense of the legislature was on the subject. The enactment to which he had referred, clearly proved, that a motion for papers of this description was not, as the right hon. gentleman seemed to suppose, a mere matter of course; but that, in certain cases only, they were to be laid before parliament. Then came the second act, of which the right hon. gentleman had spoken; by which it was provided, that if the civil list, on any future occasion, exceeded the average of the nine preceding years, an account of the expenditure should be placed on the table. But the right hon. gentleman had not proved that any breach of either of these acts of parliament had taken place. Many of the points which the right hon. gentleman had touched upon, were so completely answered by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that there was no necessity for him to notice them. But he felt it necessary to make a few observations on that part of his speech, in which he had made a personal attack on his right hon friend (Mr. Canning). He seemed to have entirely misconceived his right hon. friend's appointment. He had stated, on what authority he knew not, that lord Castlereagh had reduced Mr. Sydenham's appointment, at the court of Lisbon, to 3,500l. if his lordship had done this, it must have been under the impression that his appointment was not of a permanent nature. Now the rank of that court, and the dignity which it was necessary for the representative of the crown of Great Britain to support there, required at least a minister plenipotentiary. The salary of an officer of that rank was not 3,500l. but 6,000l. per annum. Therefore, the right hon. gentleman must either be under a mistake with respect to Mr. Sydenham's salary, or his appointment could only have been that of charge d'affaires. It was not improbable, in consequence of the extraordinary expenses incurred in the diplomatic department, at Madrid and Lisbon, in the two preceding years, that orders might have been issued to contract them as much as possible; but he could not imagine that all discretion, with reference to their expenditure, was withdrawn from our ministers at those courts, and that they were peremptorily required not to exceed a certain sum under any circumstances. He had frequently heard it asserted in that House, when the question was considered abstractedly, without reference to particular persons, that the allowances granted to our ambassadors were too small. If such was the fact, no other course could be pursued, than to enlarge their salaries, or else to invest them with a discretion to draw for such sums as their necessary expenses demanded. He would, therefore, put it to the right hon. gentleman, whether, if a foreign resident, whose salary was 3,500l. per annum, was, under peculiar circumstances, obliged to call for 6,000l. additional? He would deem such an occurrence as worthy of the grave consideration of parliamant. Would he consider it extravagant, when the embassy to Lisbon, which had, in the two last years, cost upwards of 20,000l. was suddenly reduced to a very small allowance, if an additional sum were called for? In the case of his right hon. friend (Mr. Canning) this discretionary power had been taken away. The allowance appeared to be 14,000l. per annum; but the fact was, that his salary amounted to 8,000l. and he was directed not to permit the expenses of his office to exceed the remaining 6,000l. and to keep as much within it as possible. It should not be forgotten, that this country had at Lisbon a very large commissariat and military staff; and he believed the allowance to the commander in chief was greater than that of the ambassador. He meant not to justify the one expense by the other; but when they considered the high rank of an ambassador, there was reason to think that the salary was not too high. An hon. gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) had, on a former night, observed, that there was no business to be transacted at the court of Lisbon, and that his right hon. friend might amuse himself with reading Camoens, and writing sonnets. He could not look upon this embassy as a matter of so trifling a nature, when he considered the ancient connection between the two countries, and the necessity that existed for continuing it. Even if the mission of his right hon. friend procured the least additional chance that the slave trade, that abominable traffic in human flesh, which the hon. gentleman was accustomed to reprobate so warmly, would be abolished; be, conceived that alone was sufficient to make them pause, before they called on the country to consider the embassy to Lisbon as a gross and scandalous job. He knew not what leisure his right hon. friend's situation might afford; but if he had any, and that objects of literature should engage his attention, he hoped he would continue to write with the same loyal and patriotic spirit, which had often delighted him, though it might have displeased the hon. gentleman. As to the assertion, that the prince Regent of Portugal was not likely to arrive soon in Europe, he should only observe, that a British squadron had proceeded to the Brazils for the purpose of taking him on board; a course that government would not have taken, if application had not been made to them. An hon. gentleman had men- tioned, with some degree of sarcasm, the rumours that had gone abroad of his right hon. friend having, in the course of last session, so far despaired of ever being able to join the present administration, that he was afraid they would be millstones about his neck, and wished them to shift for themselves; and, now he had found it necessary to visit Lisbon for the health of his child, it was said he had joined his adversaries for emolument; and had been attacked from the same quarter, because he had shewn that his friends were dear to him ['Dear to the country!' exclaimed Mr. Tierney]. As for himself, ever since he had known any thing of the practice or theory of the constitution, he had thought it proper to attach himself to some set of men, with whom, on most subjects, he agreed; and he thought he had done nothing improper in accepting the office he then held. As for his predecessor (lord Glenbervie) who had so long and so faithfully served the public, he had expressed a wish to retire, and would perhaps receive some reward for his services; but otherwise, Mr. Huskisson said, his appointment would be rather attended with some saving to the public, as the reward he received for his former services, however unworthy, was suspended while he enjoyed the office he now held.

said, he hoped the ship in which the ambassador to Portugal was going out, did not labour, as his friends at home had done that night to defend his appointment; if it did, he was sure his excellency and his suite must be very sick indeed; for never had he witnessed any thing more impotent or more lame. The right hon. gentleman who had just sat down, had told them, that he and his friends, in joining themselves to a party with whom they agreed in all great constitutional points, were perfectly justified. It might be so, and he for himself was not disposed to declaim against parties; but it remained for the right hon. gentleman, if he agreed with his colleagues in all great constitutional points, to account for the persevering animosity with which he had opposed them for two years. The right hon. gentleman had now replied to a speech which he (Mr. Whitbread) had made a week ago. After he had uttered that speech, the friends of Mr. Canning, and the right hon. gentleman amongst them, after divers consultations and conferences on the benches and in the lobby, selected a proper person to reply to it, and that reply was supposed by them to be satisfactory. It had been answered again to-light; but to him neither the former, nor the present answer, was satisfactory. It was urged, as a matter of complaint against him, that he attacked the right hon. ambassador in his absence. This was a serious charge; but how difficult it would be to attack a man for being absent, while he was present! (A laugh.) He had further to observe, that when there was only the difference of the Friday and the Tuesday between the departure of the right hon. gentleman and the opening of the present session of parliament, it was not too much to expect that he might have been in his place to answer the attacks, which he must be aware, from the nature of his appointment, would be made. It would be very convenient for members who might wish their conduct should escape all animadversion, to have it established as a rule, that nothing should be said respecting a member not present. For one, he did not admit of the propriety of such a rule, especially where the absence was voluntary, upon a public service not compulsory; the service itself very unnecessarily expensive to the public, and involving the very cause of complaint against the absent member. Was he to wait the return of Mr. Canning from Portugal, before he presumed to animadvert upon his appointment to that embassy, or upon the job of that appointment? This was the time, and the only time, for such animadversions; and the right hon. gentleman must be content to take the salary with all its accompaniments.

Neither he (Mr. Whitbread) nor any of his friends, had said, that the friends of Mr. Canning were millstones about his neck; but, on the contrary, he conceived that Mr. Canning had found that he was a millstone about the necks of his friends: and therefore, having laboured in vain to retrieve a fatal error in his political life, and finding that the most strenuous efforts of wit and oratory were wholly ineffectual to their object of bringing himself and them back into power, he had fairly given notice that it was a hopeless case, and passed the word to disperse: 'Sauve qui peut! Every man for himself.' This had been so well understood at the time, that it was then said by a wag, a volunteer in his household, without disguise: 'My master has turned us all off; and if I were to apply for another situation, the only reason I could assign for having quitted my former service would be, that my master was lessening his establishment, and had no further occasion for me.' The right hon. gentleman (Mr Huskisson) had feelingly contended for the honour and good faith of Mr. Canning, in providing, as well as circumstances would admit, for his adherents. Some of them were now comfortably provided for. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Huskisson) for instance, with the Woods and Forests: some less substantially, with the expectation of being created baronets, it was said; and one, it was surmised, was to be made a peer. To others, it was asserted, offers had been made of places which had neither honour, emolument, nor business attached to them: but this could hardly be, considering the talents of those distinguished members of the dispersed party. He could assure a right hon. gentleman (Mr. Pole) who was pleased to notice what he said, that he did not include him amongst the appointments resulting from Mr. Canning's bargain. He could conceive other reasons for his appointment. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Huskisson) when speaking of his own appointment, had said, though he did not know how lord Glenbervie was disposed of, this he knew, that no additional expense had been thrown on the establishment on his (Mr. Huskisson's) account. He begged pardon of the right hon. gentleman. He had at first thought there was an addition of expense; but he recollected now, that both lord Glenbervie and the right hon. gentleman's were floating pensions; so the thing was just as broad as it was long. But his carelessness about the fate of lord Glenbervie put him in mind of a person who, when new in office, on being asked where his predecessor had been provided for, had answered, 'that was what it had never occurred to him to inquire—it was not in his department.' The arrangements made between Mr. Canning and his friends now turned out to be political arrangements. He did not deny to that right hon. gentleman the credit due to his talents, but it was a little curious to hear the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer enlarge on them with so much pleasure, when all must remember how often they had been exercised to chastise his schemes and himself; and it was not less amusing to see sitting beside him, as colleagues, those who had till lately been in attendance on the right hon. gentleman, of whose appointment he had had to speak, assisting him with fresh cat of nine tails, for the flaggellation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his colleagues, in the shape of Accounts, Documents, and Quotations, fairly written out, and handed to the orator by the present Surveyor of the Woods and Forests, and others of his followers, whilst the House was convulsed with laughter, at the expense of the sufferers. It was really very charitable in the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pass such encomiums on the strength of the arm and the sharpness of the scourge under which he had suffered.

If the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Canning) had been present, he certainly should not have attacked him for being absent, but he would have attacked his appointment. He desired to know, if he had not been appointed ambassador to Portugal, would that situation have been conferred on any other gentleman? If it could be proved that this would have been done, then against the particular appointment of the right hon. gentleman he had nothing to object; but to this interrogatory no one would answer—'Yes.' He believed, but for the appointment of Mr. Canning, Mr. Sydenham, notwithstanding his health, would have een allowed to return to Lisbon, and the abolition of the slave trade would not have been thought to call for the presence of an ambassador from this country. If ministers would tell him that the abolition of the slave trade was the object they had in view in making this appointment, he would admit it to be one they ought to purchase at any price, even by the appointment in question; but that such was its origin no one was bold enough to assert. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Huskisson) had commented on his speech, and represented him to have said, in allusion to the poetical talents of his friend, that he might read Camoens. He (Mr. Whitbread) had not paid Mr. Canning so ill a compliment, or doubt he had Camoens by heart: he had said the right hon. gentleman might become the rival of Camoens. His muse might there put forth some vigorous young shoots; and if he revised his Juvenilia, to attack himself (Mr. Whitbread) and those in this country who were opposed to ministers, it would afford him (Mr. Whitbread) material gratification, as he should then see the right hon. gentleman was doing something to fill up his time.

For the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Huskisson), he was glad to see that his talents were again to be exercised in the service of the country. He trusted that he would prove that his former speeches on economy were something more than sounding brass and tinkling cymbal; that he would exert himself to diminish the expenditure of the country. It was true, he had thought there had been a radical difference of opinion between him and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. How that was accommodated, would be seen in the course of the session. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had omitted in his speech to give any explanation as to the appointment of several other new diplomatic characters. Why was lord Stewart sent to Vienna, and lord Burghersh to another capital? Why had it been necessary to place lord Clancarty at the Hague, when he was president of the board of trade, and while the vice-president was at Paris? Could not ministers have furbished up any of the old stagers who would fulfil these duties? Were they all worn out and knocked up? Was no old horse to be found in the stable, who would do this hackney work? Could not ministers persuade any of their antiquated adherents to equip themselves with a star and a bag wig and sword? Paris had been inundated by our envoys of different degrees. Lord Aberdeen had been sent to assist lord Cathcart, and lord Castlereagh to assist them both. Surely so many could not find employment: two of them, indeed, had shone in the Gazette, in language attempting the flights of poetry. With respect to the appointment of the duke of Wellington, from his very pre-eminence it might be doubted whether he was the fittest person to be selected for the embassy to Paris. But Mr. Whitbread wished to know whether he was allowed a contingent bill of unlimited expenses? If so, of what possible advantage was a fixed salary?

It was a formidable state of things indeed, when all these enormous expenses were proved to have been incurred out of the civil list, and yet no account of the excess was to be produced. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had called upon parliament to make up for the extraordinary expenses, and he had indeed a place of painful responsibility. He had however informed the House that night, that profusion might be carried to such excess, that he should feel himself bound to resign. If, for instance, the Regent should call upon him to provide funds for building a magnificent palace, without previous application to parliament; but instead of going to the House of Commons, he should order him to go to Mr. Nash, then indeed he should be resolute and resisting, and send in his resignation. But change the word 'palace' to 'cottage,' and the pill goes down; and first 33,000l. was granted, then 30,000l. and afterwards 60,000l. more, for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was alone responsible, and yet he had not thought fit to execute his threat of sending in his resignation—such an effect had the mere change of a name! The hon. gentleman next took occasion to speak of the late Jubilee. The fooleries in the Park, which had gratified nobody, and which had in the end delivered up the population of London to unexampled profligacy, had caused an unnecessary expense over which that House had no controul, as the responsible officers were not known. During the time his Majesty reigned in health, who was perhaps more beloved than any monarch who had ever before filled the throne, the application of every shilling granted for the civil list had been strictly scrutinized; but, now the Prince Regent (who of course was equally beloved) was at the head of government, it was not thought necessary to be quite so rigid. He did not, however, approve of the departure from the old system; and on this ground, and on the grounds set forth in the speech of his right hon. friend, he should support the motion, which he hoped would not be voted against by any person who had ever contended, that control over the national expenditure, and reduction in it, were necessary to the well being of the state.

said, that he had not held out any hope of the abolition of the slave trade from the appointment of Mr. Canning, but merely suggested that his embassy might be of some use in that matter.

said, if he had not listened to the early part of the debate, he should have imagined, from the speech of the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, that the motion before them was not for a series of accounts connected with the civil list, but applied exclusively to the appointment of Mr. Canning, and the acceptance of office by some of his friends; amongst the number of whom the hon. gentleman had included him. This was an honour, however, to which he had no claim. The hon. gentleman acknowledged that he was a party man—that he acted with party, while it seemed likely to operate beneficially. Now, he recollected, when the hon. gentleman's friends sat on the Treasury-bench, that the nicety of his principles led him to oppose them. He would not then act with the King's government, of which those friends formed a part. With respect to his situation of master of the Mint, he assured the House, that he had never had any connection with Mr. Canning, or his friends, so as to let them know why he accepted office, why he gave it up, or why he returned to it again. He had always acted on one plain principle, namely, to serve the public in high situations, to which a proportionate share of responsibility was attached, where he could do so with those whose principles were congenial with his own. His public life was before the world, and he cared not how closely it was investigated. The right hon. gentleman then shortly opposed the motion; observing, that if gentlemen pleased, they might bring the appointment of Mr. Canning, or the purchase of the duke of Wellington's house, before parliament, by a specific motion, and he was convinced his Majesty's ministers would not shrink from their responsibility in either case.

said, he had not the least doubt that the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down, was ready at all times to take upon himself the responsibility of office: on a former night he had avowed himself ready to sustain the responsibility of all parts of the administration. [No, no, from Mr. Pole.] It was difficult, however, to reconcile this declaration with the fact; he was ever anxious to serve his country 'in high situations, and with a proportionate share of responsibility,' and yet what was he now?—master of the Mint! a very high situation, and a very heavy responsibility. (A laugh.) This responsibility was doubtless increased by the fact, that no money was now, or likely in future, to be coined at the Mint, since the bank restriction, by the intimation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was unfortunately to be continued. In Mr. Ponsonby's opinion, the strongest ground had been laid for concurring with the motion; the regular practice was found insufficient, the excess was enormous, and a remedy was accordingly necessary to stop that excess; and investigation was the first step before the remedy was applied. He apprehended, that when the time arrived at which the papers would be given, the attendance in the House would not be such as was desirable on such an occasion. The right hon. gentleman had asked, of what use it would be to produce the papers now? He would tell him of what use it would be: it would prove to demonstration that the civil list was not in a state to bear new expenses. Nothing was so much the duty of the House, in the present circumstances of the country, as retrenchment; and if a retrenchment in expense were effected now in what concerned the crown, they would endear themselves to the country; and it was necessary to prove that there was no subject which demanded attention to which their inquiries would not be directed; that even where they might imagine it was most their interest to cultivate an acquaintance, and to relax in their exertions, they executed their duty with fear-. less independence.

contended, it was not necessary to produce the accounts before the time fixed by law, the 5th of April. Ministers did not refuse information; but they stood up for the period which parliament had decided was that at which it ought to be given. He thought at no part of the session was a better attendance to be expected than at the time when the accounts would be forthcoming. The law, as it at present stood, in his opinion, gave the public security, that the accounts of the civil list would be investigated whenever it was necessary.

thought the time at which the accounts were usually given, was too late for the House to come to any practical resolution on the subject in the same session, more especially if a committee were to be appointed to look into it. The law compelled ministers to produce the accounts of the civil list at an early period of the session in one case, and was it to be assumed that it would be improper for the House to determine that they should be so produced in any other case? He could see no reason why a bill should not be brought in to alter the time at which they were to be produced, if it would be found more convenient to have them brought forward earlier in the session than had been customary. He wished for nothing but to have the subject brought fairly before the House.

expressed his disposition to adopt the suggestion of the hon. gentleman who spoke last, or to withdraw his motion altogether, if any assurance should be made by the gentlemen on the opposite bench, that a statement of the excess of the civil list should be laid before the House within the next week, or the week after. His object was to have the accounts respecting the civil list generally communicated to parliament at an earlier period than was provided by the existing law upon the subject. By that law, any account of excess was not to be laid before the House until the 5th April, which was a period too late in the session to afford sufficient opportunity for fully investigating the subject; because the papers presented in April, were not likely to be printed for the use of the members until May; and then, should any supplementary papers be called for, they were not likely to be forthcoming until some time afterwards, probably until June; so that the subject could hardly be discussed until the very eve of the period at which the session usually closed, and when the attendance of members was usually very thin. Therefore he conceived, that in order to bring the accounts respecting the civil list fairly under the consideration of parliament, they ought to be laid before the House at least within the month of February; and to ensure that object, he thought the law upon the subject ought be amended.

vindicated the conduct of the committee appointed on a former occasion to investigate the expenditure of the civil list, of which committee he had the honour to be a member. He was of opinion, that there was time sufficient, under the act as it now stood, to investigate the accounts.

, after declaring his indisposition to become a a party to any compromise with a view to induce the right hon. gentleman to withdraw his motion, observed, that the suggestion of his hon. friend (Mr. Bankes) with respect to the propriety of laying before the House a statement of the expenses of the civil list at an earlier period of the session than was provided by the existing law, appeared to him well deserving of consideration. He had no doubt, indeed, that this suggestion would be duly considered by his colleagues, but yet he would be understood to engage for nothing upon the subject.

said, that in consequence of the declaration of the right hon. gentleman, he would consent to withdraw his motion, although the right hon. gentleman did not think proper to enter into any pledge; but if no such statement as was alluded to should be laid before the House within a reasonable time, he would pledge himself again to submit a motion upon this subject.

approved of the right hon. gentleman's intention to withdraw his motion.

The motion was withdrawn. After which, Mr. Tierney moved, "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, that he will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, an account shewing the total amount of the proceeds received from Droits of the crown and Admiralty, since the 1st January 1814, to the latest period to which the same can be made up; together with an account of the sums paid out of the Droits since the same date; specifying by whom received, and on what account." The motion was agreed to.