rose to present a petition against the renewal of the Property-tax, from the mayor, corporation, and inhabitants of the town of Guildford. He stated that these petitioners had cheerfully borne the tax during the war, but conceived that they were now entitled to an exemption from this burthen. He moved that the Petition be read.

said, he was desirous of taking the earliest opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the subject of this Petition; a subject on which such very numerous petitions had been prepared all over the country to be presented to that House. He now rose to ask the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether his Majesty's ministers had yet made up their minds as to the course they would pursue. He wished to know, whether or not it was their intention to propose a renewal of the property tax, which, according to the existing law, would expire on the 5th of next April.

replied, that it was his intention on Friday, the 17th inst., to submit to the consideration of the House several important measures relating to the finances of the country; and he was prepared to state, that the continuance of the property tax was not one of the measures he meant to propose, unless in the event of the non-ratification of the treaty of peace with America.

was not sure that he rightly comprehended the meaning of the right hon. gentleman: he understood him to say, that it was not at present his intention to propose a renewal of the property tax. He wished to know if he was right in this.

said; certainly he did not mean to propose a renewal of the property tax, unless the House should refuse to adopt the other measures which it would be his duty to submit to their consideration.

thought what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman was quite unsatisfactory: he wished to know what was his determination. He was aware the right hon. gentleman did not make up his mind hastily, nor always cling pertinaciously to his first resolution; but after the time which had passed since the House last met, he ought to have been able to make up his mind on this subject; he ought to be able to give a decisive answer to the question. Did he mean to propose a renewal of the property tax, or did he not?

said that the renewal of the property tax was not one of the measures which he had then an intention to propose, but he had other measures to propose in lieu of it.

said, the statement which the right hon. gentleman had first made was very different from what he had last said. He had first stated that he should not propose the renewal of the property tax, unless the House should refuse to adopt a financial arrangement which he should then propose. If the right hon. gentleman rested on this statement, it was important that the country should know it, that the manifestation of the public feeling against this inquisitorial and oppressive tax might continue. The right hon. gentleman had now that measure, the renewal of the property tax, in his hands as an instrument of coercion. He could say, "adopt whatever I suggest, or else you shall submit to the property tax." After a lapse of a few minutes the right hon. gentleman had taken a different tone. Now, what was the state of the case? Did the right hon. gentleman propose the property tax as an alternative, which it would be necessary to accept if his financial propositions were not agreed to; or did he mean to say, that neither in that event, nor in any other event, would the property tax be renewed?

said, that he did not doubt the country would cheerfully submit to the measures which the House might think it most expedient to adopt. The House, on Friday the 17th, would have to consider a financial scheme, of which the renewal of the property tax would form no part; it would, of course, be for the House to determine, whether the scheme which he had to propose would be preferable to a renewal or modification of the property tax?

. The first statement of the right hon. gentleman, then, was the correct one, and the property tax is to be the alternative.

The Petition having been ordered to lie on the table,

said that he was not perfectly satisfied with the explanation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He had a petition to present on the same subject, and he believed there never was one more numerously signed presented in behalf of the town which he represented; he believed that there were not above seven or eight individuals paying the tax in Liverpool by whom the petition against it was not signed. He had expected that day to have heard a positive declaration on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that as he saw the tax was so disagreeable to the country, he would not attempt to propose its revival. The circumstances which had attended the adoption of the petition which he had to present, were so extraordinary, that he could not suffer the question to pass without mentioning them; as they proved, that before Christmas the ministry had not determined whether they should not prolong the existence of the property tax beyond the 5th of April next, or rather that they had determined to continue it for one year; for a letter written soon after the recess, from a person too closely in the confidence of the Prince Regent to leave any doubt on the subject, and which was sent to Liverpool, stated that it was the intention of the ministry to propose the continuation of the property tax for one year, even on the supposition that the treaty of peace was ratified by the American government. This letter was sent to many parts of the kingdom: indeed, it was so general, that it was acted upon. The town of Liverpool, which would not otherwise have met, had been called together, and at that meeting the petition against the property tax, which he had to present, had been agreed on by all present, with the exception of two or three individuals. He was then instructed to inquire what the intentions of his Majesty's ministers were? He had, of course, no right to demand what those intentions were, but he should have wished to have been informed on that subject, to know whether he should propose that the petition be referred to a committee, or simply that it be laid on the table. It would be most consistent with the character of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer to declare absolutely that he should not propose the renewal of the tax. But although the explanation which had been given was not perfectly satisfactory, he did not think fit to propose a committee.

The Petition was read and ordered to lie on the table. In the course of the evening, forty-two petitions were presented against the continuance of the property tax.

informed the House, that he had received the commands of his royal highness the Prince Regent to acquaint them that lieutenant general sir John Murray, a member of this House, had been placed under arrest, in order to be tried by a court-martial.

said, that it was not his intention to trouble the House with remarks on the court-martial of sir John Murray, but he could not help observing with regret the personal enmity and rancor which had been suffered to manifest itself on that trial.

called the hon. member to order, and said it was perfectly irregular to make observations on a subject not at all before the House.

said, that his only intention was to call the attention of ministers to the circumstance, which was the more necessary, as they had seen the alarming circumstance which had arisen from another court-martial.

said, the hon. gentleman might have introduced the observations he chose to make with more regularity on the motion, which he was now about to propose. It might be, however, satisfactory to the hon. gentleman, to know that his Majesty's government had taken precautions to prevent unpleasant consequences resulting from what had happened on the trial in question. The right hon. gentleman then moved, that an humble address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, to return the thanks of this House to his Royal Highness, for his most gracious Message, and for his tender regard so the privileges of this House, in the communication which he has been pleased to make to this House of the reason for putting lieut. general sir John Murray in arrest.

The motion was agreed to.

wished to know if the right hon. gentleman meant to propose the renewal of the Bank Restriction Act, without first moving that the House should go into a committee on the affairs of the Bank.

had no intention of moving for such a committee; but it was competent for any member to bring forward such a motion if he thought proper.

said, that as there was a motion before the House, he should trouble them with a few words before the motion was put. As notice had been given for so early a day as the 17th of this month, of a new plan of finance, he must of course take it for granted that the affairs of Europe were definitively settled. At least, if minor points had not been completely arranged, yet as the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer was about to propose important financial arrangements, that all the grand points had been settled which had been in controversy so long, and so disgracefully in controversy at Vienna. He wished therefore to know, whether his Majesty's ministers were better informed on some points than they were previous to the adjournment of the House on the 1st of December; whether they were prepared to disavow the proclamation of prince Repnin, of which at that time they knew nothing; whether they were able to speak with certainty as to the fate of Genoa, respecting which, then, they had no information? These matters were of course now finally arranged and adjusted, so that Ministers were able to look forward with security to the settlement of the affairs of Europe, as was evident by the measures of which they had given notice. He should not speak of the disgraceful acts, if acts they were, which had emanated from the Congress, nor of the disgraceful manner in which the great subjects discussed there had been treated—that it was stated that so many millions of subjects were due to one sovereign, and a balance of 250,000 subjects to another sovereign, as if the sovereigns were every thing, and the people nothing—as if the horrors of the French Revolution had made such an impression on the minds of men, that no fantastic tricks on the part of monarchs could shake them on their thrones, and renew those terrible convulsions which had shaken all Europe. But it was most important that the House should know what arrangements had been made at the Congress, and he thought there was no time so proper to inquire as when notice had been given of a definitive financial arrangement.

considered the conduct of the hon. gentleman irregular, in bringing the subjects which he had mentioned into discussion, when no question respecting them, and no authentic document was before the House. At the same time he had certainly no objection to say, once for all, that as his noble friend (lord Castlereagh), who had attended the sitting of Congress at Vienna, was on his return, and might be expected home in a few days, he was disposed to wait his arrival before he offered that explanation which had been required. The House would feel, that it would be in the power of his noble friend to give fuller and more satisfactory information, on all the great points which might be touched upon, than he could submit to them; and he therefore hoped they would admit the propriety of waiting till the noble lord could be present. This statement, he trusted, would satisfy gentlemen opposite that no disrespect was intended to them, if some of their questions remained unanswered.

only wished to remind the right hon. gentleman and the House, that it had been said on a former occasion, when the silence observed on the Treasury-bench had been made a subject of complaint, that had the noble lord been in the House at that time, the same secrecy would have enveloped the events passing on the continent, but that the information wished for would be given in his absence, if he should not be returned when parliament again assembled.

denied that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was correct in describing the conduct of his hon. friend as irregular in bringing forward those topics to which he had thought it his duty to advert. There was a question before the House, and one which, as it extended to the whole of the money transactions of the country, was one into the discussion of which they might be fairly introduced. He, for his own part, would say, that if the state in which things should be placed was so far determined upon at Vienna that the right hon. gentleman thought himself justified in making his financial calculations for the year, he would have done well to postpone bringing forward the measures he had announced, till he could make some statement explanatory of the arrangements to take place. To him it appeared an extraordinary thing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should give notice that he would to-morrow se'nnight bring forward some new and important financial plan, and yet refuse to say any thing of the general state of politics. At the same time, he confessed he did not feel this so strong a difficulty as other people might feel it, for in his opinion there was but one course for the House to pursue, namely, to reduce as fast as possible the public expenditure. The state of the country and the happiness of the people required it. As the exertions of the people had put an end to the property tax, he hoped a continued manifestation of public opinion would produce still greater benefits, and oblige ministers to reduce the public expenditure to the smallest scale consistent with the honour and dignity of the country [Hear, hear!].

The motion was agreed to.

wished to ask a question, which he supposed the Chancellor of the Exchequer might answer, even in the absence of lord Castlereagh: whether inquiries had been made as to the conduct of sir James Duff, in advising the governor of Gibraltar to give up certain Spanish fugitives?

informed the hon. gentleman that inquiries were made, but the answers not yet, he believed, received.

begged to recall the right hon. gentleman to dates. At the latter end of November the inquiry was transmitted; plenty of time, therefore, had elapsed for the necessary answers; perhaps in the multiplicity of the right hon. gentleman's avocations, the correspondence might have been overlooked. He would therefore express a hope that before to-morrow, when he meant to repeat his question, some answer would be forthcoming.

hoped in a very short time to be able to lay before the House the necessary information.

desired to be informed by the right hon. gentleman opposite, whether his Majesty's ministers had it in contemplation to introduce a Bill in the present session, to enable the commissioners of accounts in Ireland to examine on oath the several witnesses they may think necessary. He was aware that the crown had given permission to that effect, but contended that such permission was illegal, and that the commissioners could not proceed to exercise that power unauthorized by act of parliament. He requested permission to inform the House, that he had been legally advised on this subject, and that the former Act was reduced to a perfect nullity, in consequence of its not having contained that authority.

stated, that he was not aware of any such intention on the part of his Majesty's Ministers, they conceiving it perfectly unnecessary.

observed, that he should then esteem it his duty to bring in a bill to that effect; and immediately gave notice that he would introduce it on Tuesday next.

presented an account of the number of ships and vessels on the lakes of Canada.

inquired if there was no correspondence respecting the intended sale of the frigates of the nature of that for which he had formerly inquired.

said there was no correspondence of the nature described, of the dates formerly mentioned by the hon. secretary.

had understood from the hon. gentleman that such a thing had never been in contemplation.

repeated the statement, that there was no correspondence of the nature described, and of the dates specified.

said, the paper in his pocket must, in that case, contain a forgery. He had received a letter written in the name of the hon. gentleman, signed J. W. Croker, directing the sale of them. He had understood that hon. gentleman to state on a former occasion, that nothing of the kind had been in contemplation; and if his memory did not deceive him, he had said, referring to him, "if he cannot take my word, let him bring his motion." An order from the Admiralty likewise signed by him, and dated July 27, 1814, he had received, which went to authorize the sale of the ships. The letter of the hon. gentleman was dated July 26th. It stated the lords of the Admiralty to have abandoned the idea of setting them up as first intended, and directed them to be sold; the frames to be conveyed to Halifax. The hon. gentleman, if he had not been misunderstood, had fallen into a great and unaccountable want of recollection, having forgotten that he had signed the order in question. Mr. Whitbread moved, "That there be laid before the House a copy of a letter from the navy office, addressed to commissioner Hall at Quebec, touching the sale of the frames of the Prompte and Psyche frigates."

said, that he had no objection to the production of the paper, which, in fact, was a mere repetition of an Admiralty order included in the papers before the House, and on that account alone omitted, as were other papers of a similar nature. With respect to what had fallen from him on a former occasion, if the hon member would do him the honour of more accurately remembering his words, he would find that he only contradicted the statement of the hon. member, that both the frigates sent out were ordered to be sold, as inapplicable to their object, that statement being, in fact, unfounded, as one of those frigates, which was still on the navy list, had actually been carried up to the lake for which it was originally intended.

declared he was in the recollection of the House, that he understood the hon. secretary to have denied that any order at all had been sent out with respect to the sale of either of the ships under consideration. A gentleman might contrive an easy egress from any statement through the distance of dates, but he certainly never understood the hon. secretary to have made any distinction as to singular or plural in the conversation alluded to, but to have applied his contradiction quite in unqualified terms.

observed, that the order sent out with respect to the sale of either of these frigates was quite conditional, depending upon the decision of sir James Yeo whether they were found effective or not. All he meant to contradict in the conversation alluded to, was the statement on which he understood the hon. mover to have made, that neither of these frigates was conveyed to the lake.

The motion was agreed to.

requested some explanation from the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the new plan of finance, which he had announced his intention of bringing forward on Friday next; and also whether he proposed to lay any papers on the table, and of what nature, illustrative of his object? He requested this information, in order that other gentlemen might be afforded an opportunity of considering whether any, and what farther papers might be necessary, with a view to the due understanding of the subject.

was glad the question had been put, as it gave him an opportunity of stating, that it was not a new plan of finance which he proposed to bring forward. He had stated that he had certain important financial measures to propose, but they were not, as was supposed, of a novel description.

understood the object of the right hon. gentleman to be the proposition of some substitute for the property tax. If so, then the right hon. gentleman must have in view some new plan of finance, some provision for the supply of the year, in lieu of the property tax. On a measure of such magnitude, he thought it obviously necessary that the House should be furnished with some previous information as to the right hon. gentleman's views, before it was called upon to decide.

declined to enter into any premature explanation of his object; but he would repeat, that the measure which he had in view required no previous inquiry, but would merely consist of resolutions, founded upon an ordinary statement; by which resolutions, however, he did not at all propose to tie the judgment of the House.

felt it impossible even to guess at the right hon. gentleman's object, from what he thought proper to state. He wished to know distinctly whether it was the intention of the right hon. gentleman on Friday next to enter into the general establishments of the country, or to state the probable expense of a permanent peace establishment?

replied, that he had no intention of entering into any statement as to the peace establishment.

wished to know something of the nature of the ways and means which the right hon. gentleman proposed to bring forward, and what vote of supply these ways and means were to meet?

lamented that his object did not appear intelligible to the right hon. gentleman. His view was simply this, that as he had no intention of proposing the continuance of the property tax, he meant to submit a resolution to the House, that another measure of financial supply was necessary.

thought it extraordinary that the right hon. gentleman should think the House necessarily obliged, under existing circumstances, to resolve upon providing a substitute for the property tax, which, according to law, must expire at a certain period after the conclusion of the war. Such a tax should not of course require a substitute. But he wished to know from the right hon. gentleman when that arrival was to take place, which must necessarily gratify the right hon. gentleman's natural anxiety to unseal his mouth in that House upon questions of general policy at what time the noble lord (Castlereagh) was expected, and whether he was likely to be present on Friday next? He also desired to learn, whether the right hon. gentleman intended on Friday to enter into any general statement of the finances of the year; he proposed to bring forward what was commonly called the budget?

thought it was not much to ask, that that House should have the means of forming a judgment on measures of such importance, before they came to vote upon them. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, he would not on that day pledge the House to the maintenance of any of the present establishments in the country; but as he wished to pledge them to the propositions which he would then lay before them, he hoped he would, either by printing them, or by some other means, take the House out of the disagreeable necessity of coming to vote upon them in a hurry.

remarked, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said he would give the House the time usually given to consider of the ways and means proposed by the minister. They had no reason to thank him for this, as, acting thus, he only gave them that of which he had no right to deprive them. Though that which the right hon. gentleman had to submit to them was not a new plan, it was one of great importance. Information was absolutely necessary, or how could the House know that it would be right to vote the ways and means called for, if they knew not to what purpose they were to be applied? Would he call upon the House for large supplies, without letting them know what was the naval or military force intended to be kept up for the year, and what the establishment to be maintained? He could hardly expect the House would be thus led blindfold. He said, he would not pledge them to any of the present establishments; but how could they vote any thing, if they did not know what they were, which it was proposed should be kept up? Did ever the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursue such a line of conduct before?

said, that if it should hereafter be found that he desired the House to place confidence in him, which they had not been in the habit of reposing in the person who filled his situation, or if it could be shewn that he recommended to them to take any unusual or unparliamentary course, then he would admit the observations which had been made on this occasion were to the purpose. At present he considered them to be premature.