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Commons Chamber

Volume 29: debated on Monday 13 February 1815

House of Commons

Monday, February 13, 1815

Petition From London Respecting Insolvent Debtors

The sheriffs of London presented at the bar, a Petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons of the City of London in Common Council assembled; setting forth,

"That an Act was passed in the 53rd year of the reign of his present Majesty, intituled, 'An Act for the Relief of Insolvent Debtors in England;' and another Act was passed in the last session of parliament to explain and amend the said Act; and that the petitioners, alarmed at the tendency of the said Acts, did, while the same were under consideration in the House, declare their objections thereto, and request the representatives for this city in parliament to oppose the passing of the same into a law; and that, since the passing of the said Acts, the apprehensions of the petitioners have been fully realized; and they have seen a door thereby opened to the most extensive frauds, highly injurious to national morals, destructive of those habits of industry, and of that good faith and mutual confidence, for which this country has been so long distinguished, and which has been one great cause of its commercial pre-eminence; and that, under the said Acts, however deceptively persons may have contracted debts, however extravagantly or profligately they may have dissipated the property so obtained, they are never the less enabled, after three months imprisonment, to gain their liberation upon assigning their effects for the benefit of their creditors, or even should they make it appear the whole is expended; and that, so long as they choose to continue living upon the property of their creditors, their creditors have no means whatever to compel them to make such assignment, and it very seldom occurs that any application is made for that purpose by the debtors while there is any property remaining; and that to give this option to debtors, and no means whatever to creditors to compel them to assign their effects, appears founded on the most manifest injustice, and must be attended with ruinous consequences; and that experience has shown that to oppose the liberation of debtors tends only to further loss and aggravation; for, however glaring their misconduct, very few instances occur where they do not finally succeed; and there is too much reason to apprehend that, in a very considerable number of cases, the grossest fraud and perjury is resorted to in order to deprive creditors of their just claims; and that to found expectations upon property which the debtor may subsequently acquire, appears entirely fallacious, scarcely an instance having occurred where such property has become available, and equally difficult is detection in cases of concealment; and that the fair traders feel themselves deeply aggrieved by the operation of the said Acts, and it is manifest that they have not answered the purposes intended; and praying, that the said Acts may be repealed; but at the same time the petitioners cannot but express their readiness to concur in any measures tending to relieve unfortunate persons who may have fallen under embarrassments, which shall appear expedient to the House to be adopted."

Ordered to lie upon the table.

Sir James Duff

moved, "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, that he will be graciously pleased to give directions, that there be laid before this House, copies of the Correspondence which has taken place between earl Bathurst and sir James Duff, relative to certain Spanish subjects who proceeded from Cadiz to Gibraltar in May 1814."

observed, that the principal charge against sir James Duff, referred to his order to examine an English convoy at Cadiz, with a view to prevent certain Spaniards from availing themselves of that opportunity to escape from persecution.

said, that from what he had heard, he was led to think, that the surrender of the fugitive Spaniards at Gibraltar, was the main object of the hon. gentleman, and therefore he had so framed his motion. But he had reason to believe that the papers to be produced, would comprehend every thing the hon. gentleman desired on the subject.

remarked, that his observations upon the subject were made in the absence of the hon. gentleman on an important mission, on the conclusion of which he was ready to congratulate him. His animadversions and inquiry, however, on this subject, referred not only to the unjust and inhuman seizure of the Spaniards alluded to at Gibraltar, but to the equally unjust and inhuman endeavours of sir James Duff, at Cadiz, to prevent the escape of other Spaniards from the inquisitorial power of that most detestable government. [Hear! hear.]

The motion was agreed to.

Civil List Amendment Bill

On the motion of Mr. Bankes, the House went into a committee on the Bill to amend an Act made in the 52d year of his present Majesty, for making provision for the better support of his Majesty's house- hold during the continuance of his Majesty's indisposition. The hon. gentleman stated, that the object of the Bill was, to provide that the accounts of the civil list should hereafter be made up to the 5th of January instead of as heretofore to the 5th of April; and he was not aware of any opposition to the proposed arrangement.

, adverting to the conversation which took place at an early period of the session on this subject, when he took occasion to observe, that it was highly expedient to have these accounts made up to the period mentioned in the Bill, regretted that this arrangement did not apply in any manner to the present year, in which there was notoriously an arrear, but was reserved for the next year, when there might be no arrear at all. For himself, he could not conceive the existence of any difficulty to the production of the civil list accounts, at least, at such an early period as would enable the House to inquire into and discuss the subject in due time. He could not, indeed, see any objection to their prompt production, for he had reason to believe, that they were ready to be laid before the House. In one department he happened to know that they were actually ready. Upon what ground, then, should their production be delayed, when that production would afford so much satisfaction. Perhaps the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer was somewhat angry on a former occasion, at what he might consider his (Mr. Tierney's) pertinacity upon this subject, but now he hoped the right hon. gentleman was in better humour, and disposed to yield to his wishes by producing these accounts in due time. It must be obvious, that if they were not laid before the House until April, they were not likely to meet the attention they deserved from that House and the country. There would not be time to consider them or to move for further papers if thought necessary, until a very advanced period of the session, when other and very important subjects were likely to crowd upon the attention of the House. From these considerations, he hoped, that the right hon. gentleman would not object to a proposition for the speedy production of these accounts.

declared, that he had no objection to the production of the accounts alluded to at the earliest possible period, and that he had no doubt they would be ready before April. Indeed, he was led to hope, that he should be enabled to lay them before the House by the close of the present month. But the right hon. gentleman might make a motion on the subject if he thought proper.

said, that he should decline to make any motion, on the understanding from the right hon. gentleman, that these accounts would be brought forward with all convenient expedition. His only object was, that they should be laid before the House in due time, to render the subject fully intelligible to parliament and the country before Easter. Being on his legs, he took occasion to ask the right hon. gentleman, when the paper was likely to be laid before the House, with respect to the droits of the Admiralty, for which he had moved before Christmas?

rose to ask a question which he conceived to be connected with the civil list accounts. He wished to know, whether an appointment had not just been made of a secretary of legation to Lisbon, with a salary of 1,200l. a year, in addition to the enormous grant already made to Mr. Canning, for which that right hon. gentleman had yet done nothing but deliver a brilliant speech to a deputation of the British factory? [A laugh.]

replied, that he was not aware of any such appointment as the hon. member had alluded to.

asked, whether the right hon. gentleman was prepared to say that no such appointment or nomination had taken place?

Here the chairman was proceeding to read the motion, but

persisted in repeating his question, which he said he should press for the satisfaction of the House and the country, notwithstanding the hurry of the chairman, and the pertinacious silence of the right hon. gentleman, who seemed resolved to plead ignoramus to every question asked him.

repeated that he was not aware of any such appointment.

stated, that it was publicly rumoured, and by no means a secret, that a lord of the Admiralty had been appointed a secretary to the embassy to Lisbon, with a salary of 1,200l. a year.

expressed a wish to know what he was to infer from the right hon. gentleman's reply? Whether the right hon. gentleman meant to say that no such appointment had been made, or that it did not take place with his knowledge.

said, that the committee was to infer, that he had been asked a question which he was not prepared to answer.

The motion was agreed to, the House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow.

Congress at Vienna—Transfer of Genoa, &c.]

On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for postponing the committee of supply until Wednesday next,

rose and said, that notwithstanding the declaration which had been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day, that he would answer no questions with respect to our foreign relations or negociations, until the return of lord Castlereagh; yet it appeared to him of essential importance that the House and the public should be put in possession of information respecting the march of the negociation, and the conduct of the British negociator, upon points which were vital to the honour of this country—vital to the interests of Europe. From the information which he had received, he could charge the noble lord with being a party, and making this country a party, in some of the disgraceful proceedings of the Congress at Vienna. He did not allude merely to the question of Saxony, but to transactions passing in other parts of Europe, transactions in which the character of this country and the character of our allies, had been deeply involved, and the future repose of the world most seriously endangered. At the time that Dresden and the other towns in Saxony were given up to the Prussian troops, by prince Repnin, on the part of Russia, ministers said that they did not know that lord Castlereagh was a party to that act, and that they did not believe that a British negociator could be a party to so disgraceful a transaction. He believed that he could now state with authority, from information that could not be contradicted, that lord Castlereagh was a party to that disgraceful act of prince Repnin, by which Saxony was delivered up to Prussian troops. Subsequently, however, lord Castlereagh had sent in a note against that very act to which he had been a party. Since the surrender of Saxony, ministers had not contradicted the fact of lord Castlereagh having been a party to this act of prince Repnin, although at the time they had denied it, and said it was impossible that any British negociator could be a party to so disgraceful a transaction. He had reason to believe that it was in consequence of the public feeling manifested in this country, that ministers had sent over instructions to lord Castlereagh to present to the Congress a note, protesting against that act to which he himself had been a party. Such had been the march of the negociation on the part of the British representative at the Congress. He should not now presume to put a question on this subject to those gentlemen who had already declared that they would answer nothing until the return of lord Castlereagh. He should not expect them to return any answer on the subject; but he stated this to be the case, and unless it was formally contradicted, there was no person who would not believe it to be true. There were other things, also, which had happened, equally disgraceful to the character of this country. It was curious to see the line of conduct adopted by ministers, who resolved to wait for the return of the noble lord before they opened their mouths. They resolved to sit in silence, while they knew that public documents existed by which certain mutations of states had been made and irrevocably fixed. Amongst the rest, the most unparralleled and unjustifiable act was the giving up of Genoa to the king of Sardinia. If the House could recollect the treaty signed by the allied powers, on their entrance into Paris, and also not forget the principle on which we had been engaged in the horrid and bloody war of the last twenty years, as well as the arguments used at all times against the despotism of the late French ruler, but more particularly when he annexed to his dominions, without the least formality, the territories of independent states, it could not be without feelings of shame, remorse, and disgust, that we could hear what the allies were doing in their most unholy Congress at were doing in their most unholy Congress at Vienna.

The course of proceeding pursued with regard to Italy, under the sanction of Con gress, was but too apparent. It was well known, that lord William Bentinck when he first entered Tuscany had carried the words, "Italian independence," upon his banners, and had called upon the people to stand forward in support of their unalienable rights, to fight for their holy religion, their constitution and independence. He would read the proclamation which his lordship issued on that occasion, that the House might see how these people had been treated, and how they had been betrayed. Mr. Whitbread here read the following proclamation, dated Leghorn, the 14th of March, 1814:

"Italians—Great Britain has landed her troops on your shores; she holds out her hand to you to free you from the iron yoke of Buonaparté.

"Portugal, Spain, Sicily, and Holland, can attest the liberal and disinterested principles which animate that power.

"Spain, by her firm resolution, her valour, with the assistance of her allies, has succeeded in a great undertaking.

"The French have been driven from her territories—her independence is secured—her civil liberty is established.

"Sicily, protected by this power, has succeeded in saving herself from the universal deluge, from which she has suffered nothing, owing to the benevolent disposition of her prince; drawn from slavery to liberty, she hastens to resume her former splendour among independent nations.

"Holland hastens to accomplish the same end.

"Will Italy then remain alone under the yoke?

"The Italians only will fight against Italians, to support a tyrant, and to enslave their country.

"Italians, hesitate no longer—you are Italians—and thou more especially, Italian army, reflect that the great cause of thy country is in thy hand!

"Warriors of Italy, you are not asked to come to us, but you are asked to assert your rights and your liberty.

"Call us, and we will hasten to you, and then, our forces joined, will effect that Italy may become what in the best times she was, and what Spain now is.

"W. BENTINCK,

"Commander in Chief of the British troops."

If such were the hopes and the prospects which we held out to the Italians, how miserably have they been disappointed! But it was not merely this general proclamation to the Italians that had been violated; there was another proclamation to the people of Genoa, in which they were expressly promised their independence, and their former government. Lord William Bentinck had even proceeded to the appointment of their two colleges and their two councils, for the express purpose of the complete restoration of their former government. This second proclamation was dated the 26th of April, 1814, and was couched in the following terms:

"The forces of his Britannic Majesty under my command, having driven the French from the territory of Genoa, it is become necessary to provide for the maintenance of good order, and the government of this state. Considering that the universal desire of the Genoese nation appears to be to return to that ancient government under which it enjoyed liberty, prosperity, and independence; considering also that this desire seems to be conformable to the principles acknowledged by the high allied powers to restore to all their ancient rights and privileges;

"I DECLARE,

"1st. That the constitution of the Genoese states, which existed in the year 1797, with those modifications which the general voice, the public good, and the spirit of the original constitution of 1576 seem to require, is reestablished.

"2d. That the organic modifications, together with the manner of forming the list of the eligible citizens, and the minor and major councils shall be published as soon as possible.

"3rd. That a provisional government, consisting of 13 persons, and formed into two colleges as at first, shall be nominated immediately, and shall hold their charge till January 1, 1815, when the two classes shall be comprised in the number prescribed by the constitution.

"4th. That the provisional government shall assume and exercise the legislative and executive powers of the state, and shall settle a temporary system, either continuing and modifying the existing laws, or re-establishing and modifying ancient laws, in the manner which shall seem to them expedient for the good of the state, and the security of the persons and property of the citizens.

"5th. That two-thirds of the minor and major councils be nominated immediately, the others to be elected according to the form of the constitution, when the list of the eligible citizens shall be made out.

"6th. The two colleges shall propose to the two councils above named, according to the constitution, all the measures they may think necessary for the complete re-establishment of the ancient form of government.

"And, in fulfilment of this, I declare, by this present proclamation, that the signor —, and the signori —, senators, are elected to form the provisional government of the Genoese state; and I invite and order all the inhabitants of every class and condition to lend their aid and obedience. "W. C. BENTINCK,

"Commander in Chief.

"Dated, Head-Quarters, 26 April, 1814."

If ever there was a public declaration by which a government had pledged itself to maintain the independence of another state, the British government had become by this instrument the guarantee of Genoese independence. Let the House however look at the sequel. Five days before the arrival of the period at which the people of Genoa looked for the ratification of their liberties, they receive the black and inhuman mandate which informed them, that their constitution was not to be restored, that their rights and happiness were not to be consulted, that their former splendour was not to be revived, and that the faith and honour of this country was not to be regarded. On the 26th of December, 1814, the fatal intelligence was published to them, that all the promises in which they had hitherto trusted, and all the professions which they had hitherto believed, were alike hollow and delusive; that those who had so loudly proclaimed that the march of the late despotism was traced in blood, were themselves treading in the same footsteps, and that Genoa was to become the victim of their lawless usurpations. It was then that the protocol of the proceedings at Vienna was made known to them; and the established authorities, with indignation, but not with fear, pointed out to their countrymen by proclamation the necessity of submission.—Mr. Whitbread here read the following Address of the governors and procurators of Genoa announcing the annexation of that Republic to Sardinia:

"Informed that the Congress of Vienna has disposed of our country, uniting it to the states of his majesty the king of Sardinia, and resolved on the one hand not to yield our indisputable rights, on the other, not to adopt useless or fatal mea- sures, we resign an authority conferred on us by the confidence of the nation, and approved by the principal powers.

"All has been done without hesitation and without reserve, that a government guided by justice and reason could do for the rights and restoration of its people. Our consciences attest it, and the most remote countries know it.

"Nothing now remains for us to do, but to recommend to the municipal, the administrative, and judicial authorities, the just exercise of their functions;—to the succeeding government the care of the troops which we had begun to form, and of those who had served with loyalty.

"To all the people of Genoa we recommend tranquillity, than which nothing is more necessary to the welfare of nations.

"We carry with us into our retirement a profound sentiment of gratitude towards the illustrious general who knew the limits of victory, and a perfect confidence that Divine Providence will never abandon the Genoese.

"From the Palace of Genoa,

"Dec. 26, 1814."

Such was the proclamation issued by the procurators and executive officers of Genoa, on the 26th of December, five days before the period at which the solemn word of a British general (which word the Genoese government yet forbore to impeach), involving the word and faith of the British government, had guaranteed to that unhappy people the restoration of their former government, and the security of their ancient independence. The Congress of Vienna, instead of re-establishing their rights, had however adjudged them to be slaves. General Dalrymple, who then commanded at Genoa, published on the 28th another proclamation, announcing the melancholy fact, in these words:

"The provisional government appointed by his excellency lord William Bentinck, on the 26th of April last, having delivered its authority into my hands, I hasten publicly to declare, that it has constantly laboured towards the welfare and happiness of its citizens.

"Having received orders from his royal highness the Prince Regent of Great Britain, to restore the government of the Genoese states to the authority which shall be appointed by his majesty the king of Sardinia, conformably to the decision of the Congress of Vienna, in virtue of which the states of Genoa are placed under the dominion of his Sardinian majesty, I order, that all the inhabitants of the Genoese states shall obey the existing administrative, municipal, and judicial authorities, until the will of the king of Sardinia is made known to me.

"I do not doubt that the order and harmony which reigned among all classes of the citizens during my residence among them, will be maintained under this change; and it is with real pleasure that I pronounce a future prosperity to this country, guaranteed by the privileges which have been preserved by the act of cession, and by the paternal government of a king, whose only care is to insure the happiness of his beloved subjects.

"J. P. DALRYMPLE, Commander of the British forces in the States of Genoa.

"Genoa, Dec. 27, 1814."

Here was no misconduct, then, imputed by any party to the former Genoese government, no pretence of any justification of this kind offered. Every former tyranny, either despotic or revolutionary, had deemed it necessary to colour its aggressions by some pretext of that description. No alleged grievances were held up to the people as inviting them to accept the precious boon of fraternity, or, as it would perhaps be called in this instance, of paternity, from their invaders. In this very proclamation, general Dalrymple did not attempt to tell the Genoese that their government was a bad one, or that they were unhappy under it. No; on the contrary, he dwelt upon its excellence, and commended the regular and correct behaviour of the inhabitants, and yet, coupled with that admission, they were told that they had been consigned over to the crown of Sardinia. Was there ever any conduct so disgraceful and unfeeling! And under what authority did general Dalrymple act? By the orders of his royal highness the Prince Regent of Great Britain. He wished to see the detestable mandate that thus empowered general Dalrymple; he wished to know in what words it was couched; he wished to know by whom the Prince Regent had been advised to issue an order for overthrowing the independence of an ancient and a free state; and by whom it was signed. After the disclosure of facts like these, ministers might if they pleased continue in their threatened silence; they might still wait till the return of lord Castlereagh, and the House might be forced to wait for the same event, before it could know whether there was such a document in the Foreign-office; but he would venture to affirm that not all the powers on earth assembled in Congress had the legitimate right to place Genoa under the dominion of Sardinia; and he hoped the people of Europe would assert their rights against a combination of usurping powers, as they had lately successfully done against a single power which aimed at universal dominion. What! was the country in which the palladium of liberty was supposed to have remained inviolate, that had been described as the ark of a deluged universe, to be made a party to the extinction of an independent power, and to the compulsory transfer of a free people to a government equally imbecile and corrupt, alike unable to protect, conciliate, or control its subjects! He trusted that public opinion would be in unison with his own, that neither this nor any other congress had power so to trample on the liberties of mankind, and that there yet remained feeling and spirit enough to animate them to unite against any combination of usurping powers, and free themselves from a yoke as overwhelming, now that it was imposed by many, as when it was established by one. What a satire was general Dalrymple's compliment to, the late Genoese government on the conduct of his own! and how galling must it have been to the Genoese people to hear mention made of future guarantees to be entered into by the king of Sardinia, in the same document which recorded the violation of a solemn guarantee, involving all that was dear and sacred to them, on the part of this country! Could the right hon. gentlemen opposite deny any of these things? Would they, if they had it in their power to contradict them, suffer the putation of transactions so odious, so disgusting, so unjust, to rest longer upon them? Let the shame lie where it ought to lie, and perhaps a greater palliation for such atrocities would be found in a shameful silence than in a shameless defence.

But he would wish gentlemen to consider what was likely to be the effect of the conduct of the Congress, when the intelligence should spread itself throughout Italy. The Genoese had received the news of their transfer with that sullen despair which wanted no outward exhibition to betray itself. It was a prominent feature of the Italian character to be sullen under an injury which was deeply felt, and to wait for the moment of revenge. What other line of conduct could be expected from them? What barrier could be interposed when all the principles of justice were at once broken down? Nothing but slow and sure revenge. No exclamations, no menaces, no indignation had escaped them; they heard their fate in silence—a silence which proved that they only waited for the opportunity of avenging themselves; and he sincerely hoped they would be able to do so. The conduct of Austria in Italy had been most extraordinary. She took possession of that country conditionally, in consequence of a stipulation entered into with Eugene Beauharnois, the late viceroy: This person was esteemed by the Italians, and always spoken of by them with respect; for besides his high military fame, he had acquired a character amongst them for independence, honour, and fidelity; and they believed he never would have been induced so to falsify the word he had given to the Italians as it had been falsified when he left the Northern parts of Italy to be occupied by the Austrians. The capital of these states was taken possession of by general Bellegarde, in the name of the allies, not in the name of Austria. But what had been the conduct of Austria towards this very Sardinia? She had even marched garrisons into Florence, which the weakness of Sardinia obliged her to give up. What was the intention of the allied powers? Only that Austria should hold certain possessions in Italy, as a security till the general affairs of the Congress were arranged, and that then she should restore them. But Austria had taken possession of them in full propriety, particularly of the Venetian states, thereby extinguishing one great independent republic. She had also taken possession, in sovereignty, of the independent republic of Lucca, without the miserable pretext of former unjust possession. She had threatened to take possession of the citadel of Turin, and had claimed the right to send a garrison into that fortress; thus grossly insulting the feeble power to which the ancient and once haughty republic of Genoa had been traitorously consigned. And let it be recollected, that while all this was going on, we were keeping up or paying for an army of 75,000 men on the continent, for the purpose of protecting the minor states, in order that no interloper might come into them before his time. Yet, while we were paying this army for such a purpose, Austria had taken possession of the states enumerated without any right at all; and had accompanied her authority with her usual system of exactions, contributions, and imposts. The Austrian government, it was well known, was always disliked in Italy, but now it was detested, And having rioted in injustice, she was haunted with all that suspicious jealousy incident to despotic usurpation. Every Italian who ventured to breathe a wish that the allied powers had been true to their plighted faith-every man who dared to express a thought, that after such a night of despotism, the promised day would have shone upon them, had been arrested. From all quarters of Northern Italy the victims of Austrian injustice had been gathered within the dungeons of that baneful power. A conspiracy had been invented for the purpose of accusing obnoxious persons, falsely presumed criminal, who were to be summoned before a tribunal incompetent to their trial. Against such a tribunal, so constituted, the civilized world ought to protest; and little as he thought of the energy, exertion, or capacity, of the members of the cabinet now remaining at home—diminished as he conceived the influence of the British government on the continent to be, he trusted they would exert themselves to prevent the scandal of the mock trial which was announced, of the victims of Austria, now immured in her dungeons, and to avert the horrible catastrophe to which they are destined. The last act of this power, contrary to good faith, had been the withdrawing of the Italian regiments over the mountains into Germany; but on their arrival what was their condition? They were found to be mere skeletons. Such conduct altogether he hoped every man breathing would protest against, as being, morally, most unjust and inhuman, and politically speaking, the most scandalous and disgraceful policy that could be adopted. He hoped there would be still found feeling enough in the British cabinet to protest against the whole of the proceedings that had taken place towards Saxony and Italy; and he would implore this government to interfere in behalf of those persons who were to be brought to trial in Italy.

There was another subject on which he must say a few words. Before the recess, He had repeated some questions which he thought would have extracted an answer. They regarded the state of the Low Countries, the expense of putting the fortresses into repair, and the forming of en- trenched camps between those fortresses. It seemed that all these preparations were for the advantage and security of the prince of Orange. He wished to ask the gentlemen opposite, whether they knew of any considerable movement of Prussian troops in that direction; and in consequence, that that country which was to be preserved from the inroads of France, and protected against her, was open to the incursions of opposite neighbour? For what purpose were Prussian troops marching towards Belgium? He hoped, if that country was to be finally delivered to Holland, that the government would act in direct opposition to that of Austria in regard to Italy, and would learn, that the strength of a state did not consist in the number of its muskets, its cannon, and its fortresses, but in the loyalty and affection of its people. If the present was the time for Belgium to become Dutch, and permanently to remain so, he should be glad to see, that instead of fortresses, there would be given to the people a constitution, political rights, and something worth fighting for. This would be of more value to them than all the money we might expend amongst them, and all the fortresses we might build for them; which, assuredly, would not protect them against invasion more than a very few years. He knew not whether what he had said would call forth any reply from ministers: he did not anticipate that it would; but if what he had asserted remained uncontradicted, he should continue to believe his information correct, and in the eyes of the world, they themselves would be considered as adopting it. [Hear, hear! from the ministerial side of the House.]

said, that on the justice and propriety of the course taken by the hon. gentleman, he should give no opinion, but leave it to the judgment of the House. Such conduct, however, he considered to be utterly novel, and unheard of before in parliamentary proceedings. It had never been customary to bring a direct charge against any member without giving the party notice of such intention, that he might appear in his place to repel it if he could. The hon. gentleman had said he did not expect an answer to the questions he had put, and in this he would certainly not be disappointed. He thought it much better to leave them wholly unanswered, than to communicate partial information, when it was probable that in a short time fuller explanations might be obtained than could now be given.

contended that the right hon. gentleman could not be ignorant about certain facts which had been mentioned by his hon. friend, though he might not choose to say any thing upon them; and if so, would not every one conclude, that he could not contradict and could not justify them. Was the paper issued by general Dalrymple authentic or not? Was it true that the transfer of Genoa to Sardinia was with the sanction of this country? Mr. Speaker, continued the right hon. gentleman, I wish you would cast your eyes upon that bench, and say if there is a single person sitting there who dares contradict what has been asserted? and if you do cast your eyes upon them, I should be glad to know what your emotions are—whether you most pity or condemn them? [Hear, and laughter.] He had nothing more to say; the transactions beggared all description; and he was sure there was not a man in the kingdom that ever expected to see the name of England so disgraced.

, in reply to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, said that he had charged lord Castlereagh as a member of the government; and the government who sent out such directions to him ought to be arraigned before the tribunal of the world. He arraigned them as sending out contradictory instructions to lord Castlereagh—a being a party to the spoliation of Saxony—as being a party to the dismemberment of Italy. The hon. member was proceeding to touch upon some other topics, when he was called to order; and the Speaker reminded him that he could enter only into an explanation.

rose to ask a question, in which he conceived the country was much interested. He was sure that the public must feel extremely indignant, should they find that English officers and English money were employed in carrying on the present atrocious enormities of the government of Spain. But he had very strong reasons to believe that there were many English officers in the Spanish employment, and that they were paid by English money. He, however, wished not to give entire credit to what he had heard on this subject till he should have the answer of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, he hoped, would not observe his usual taciturnity on this occasion. His question was, whether there were any, and how many British Officers in Spain, and if there were, whether they were paid any British money, And how much?

said that he had no objection to the noble lord's moving for an account of any English officers serving in Spain, and any English money paid to them, when of course he would obtain the object of his question. There might be a few British general officers in Spain, who, of course were in the British pay; but he was not prepared to give any further answer.

shortly after moved for a return of the names of any British officers now serving in the Spanish army, together with an account of the pay and appointment received by them from this country, so far as the same could be made out.

wished to know whether it was the intention of ministers to lay the treaty of Chaumont upon the table? The substance of that treaty had already been communicated to the House; but it was of so much importance to know the pre, vise wording of the articles, that he hoped that they would not be withheld. On a former occasion, an objection to producing the treaty was stated to exist, in its ratification not having been exchanged.

said, there was not the slightest wish on the part of the government to withhold the treaty in question; but that he believed all the necessary documents had not yet arrived in this country.