rose. He said, that before he entered into any general observations, he should, in a few words, explain the vote with which he intended to conclude. He was, in the first place, to provide for the payment of different exchequer bills outstanding, and which, in the ordinary course, should now be provided for. The first was a sum of 11 millions of exchequer bills, which remained of a sum of 12 millions and a half, voted in November 1811; also another of 4 millions and a half of exchequer bills which were now become due, and lastly, a sum of a million and a half which had usually been carried on from year to year. He should also propose to make provision for the exchequer bills outstanding on the aids of the year 1815, and amounting to 18,600,000l.; carrying to the amount of the ways and means of 1816, an equal sum from those of 1815, which still remained to be received. The object of this arrangement, which was similar to the practice of several years past, was to make all sums received into the exchequer applicable to the service of either year, as occasion might require.

If he were to confine himself to the object of the vote which he had to propose, it would be unnecessary for him to say more: but a wish had been expressed by many gentlemen, that on the first occasion on which a vote of supply was proposed to the House, he should make some general observations as to the probable extent of the supply, and the ways and means to meet that supply. Although the practice was unusual, it was not unreasonable or inconvenient that the House, by some general statement, should be enabled to form an opinion, by which it might regulate its judgment on the specific votes which were successively presented to it. Such a statement as he should make was, in its nature, subject to inaccuracy, and the amount of the sums which he should give might be varied by any alteration in the state of our affairs. He should, however, give a statement of the supply on such a scale, that it would be liable to no increase, and as to the present state of the country, he had no temptation to deceive the House by any flattering picture. We were now in a peculiar crisis. At the close of a long contest, in which we had struggled so successfully for our own honour and safety, and for the honour and liberty of Europe, in which we had added so largely to our naval and military glory, we could not immediately sit down and repose ourselves, as if we had enjoyed uninterrupted peace. But he should show by reference to facts and documents, which would soon be before the House in an official shape, that our resources were as entire as could be expected by the most sanguine, and that if we did not immediately enjoy all the benefits which might be expected from the opening of foreign ports to our commerce, it was only necessary to exert a small portion of that firmness and perseverance, which had been so often recommended to the House by his predecessors and himself, and which had never been recommended in vain, to bear the nation triumphantly through all its difficulties.

The statement which he should make, would naturally divide itself into two branches. The first was the general state of the finances at the commencement of the present year, together with his opinion as to the causes and probable remedies of our present difficulties. The next branch was the amount of the supply, and the ways and means to meet it, which would be proposed in a more advanced period of the session. He should first give a comparative statement of the revenue of the last compared with that of the preceding year, which would throw some light on our present situation, and the probable prospect for the future. A right hon. gentleman had expressed doubts whether the general statement of the produce of the last year's revenue, if minutely examined, would be as favourable as it at first appeared to be. He should therefore give some of the principal heads, comparing the produce of the last with that of the preceding year.

The produce of the customs in the year ending Jan. 5, 1815, was 11,059,000l.; that or the year ending Jan 5, 1816, was 10,487,000l. It was however, to be re- membered, that in the latter sum was not included the amount of the war duty on tonnage and exported British goods which had usually produced between 6 and 700,000l., which if added would raise this year above the preceding, which had exceeded all former years. The excise presented a still more favourable result. The produce of the year 1814, was 25,145,000l.; that of 1815, was 26,562,000l. being an increase of 1,417,000l. beyond all preceding years. This increase, too, did not arise from any new taxes, except an additional tax on licences, which perhaps had produced 2 or 300,000l. The stamp duties of 1814 amounted to 5,598,000; those of 1815 to 5,865,000l. On this head it was however, to be recollected, that there had been a large addition to the duties on stamps, to which the increased produce was in part attributable. The assessed taxes of 1814 were 6,411,000l., those of 1815, 6,214,000l. being a diminution of 200,000l. The property tax of 1814 was 14,218,000l., the produce of the same tax in 1815 was 14,318,0l. being an increase of just 100,000l. The land tax on account of the constant progress of redemption, was subject to diminution. The produce of this tax in 1814, was 1,129,000l.; in 1815, it was 1,079,000l.—The total amount of the produce of the revenue in 1814, was 65,429,981; in 1815 it was 66,443,802l. This it would be seen, was an increase of more than a million above a year, which also had exceeded any former year. Thus much as to the revenue of the country: and on this head we might rest satisfied as to the prospect which was held out as to the future productiveness of the taxes.

He should now say a few words as to the application of the grants which had been made with a view of meeting the dangers which in the last year, seemed about to fall upon the country—dangers which were averted in so short a time by the wonderful successes of our arms. It was on the 14th of June last that the proposition of supply had been submitted to the House. It was then predicted by some gentlemen on the other side of the House, that the supply then demanded, though unprecedentedly large, would fall as short of the wants of the country as the supplies of former years. It was then also surmised, that the attack of the Allies on the French frontier was altogether hopeless. An end was soon put to both predictions. The next day after these prophesies the attack began at Charleroi, and the cannon did not cease to roar until the flight of the French leader, the dispersion of his troops, and the fall of his empire put an end to the whole war. In bringing forward the view of the finances in the last year, he had observed that of the sum which was then applied to the public service, 21 millions would be employed in the payment of arrears. The whole of that sum had been actually employed for that service, and in addition, a further reduction of the unfunded debt had been made to the amount of 21 millions more. The surplus of the grants for the service of the last year had been thus beneficially employed; the debts thus reduced were the Exchequer bills and the navy debt, so that the whole unfunded debt had been brought down from 68,547,000l. to 47,700,000l. [Hear, hear!]

If they turned their eyes to the commerce of the country, the view would not be less gratifying to the House. He could merely give a statement of our exportation for the three quarters ending October 10, which was the latest period to which the accounts had been made up. In the three quarters ending October 10, 1814, the value of our exportations had been 37,167,294l.; in the three quarters ending on the same day, in 1815, they had been 42,425,357l. He should not attempt to go through all the particulars of this sum; but he should mention some of the principle heads. The cotton manufactory in the three quarters of 1814, had exported 13,668,938l. In the same part of 1815 these exports had amounted to 15,376,908l. being an increase of 1,700,000l. The linen manufacture had in the three quarters of 1814, exported 1,186,659l. In the three quarters of 1815 it had exported 1,340,621l.—The woollen manufacture in the three quarters of 1814 had exported 6,131,008l. In the same part of 1815, 8,744,835l.

While our situation with respect to commerce was so prosperous, it was not to be denied that we were labouring under many embarrassments. Of these embarrassments, and the remedies which might be applicable, he should now attempt some developement. They had arisen from the circumstances in which the country had been long placed, and which had operated on the prices of all articles, especially agricultural produce, which had swollen to a rate quite disproportionate to the prices of all other commodities. The alarm of the scarce years of 1795, 1799, and 1800, had produced a general opinion which was indeed at that time probably well founded, that the agricultural produce of this country was inadequate to its consumption. At the same time the uncertainty of supply from abroad was increased. That supply was sometimes stopped, at other times the price of grain was raised by the foreign powers on whom our supply depended in proportion to our wants, by the enormous sums exacted for licences and duties on the grain itself. Having been thus thrown back on our own produce, in years which were not remarkably abundant, the inadequacy of the supply was felt more strongly, and prices continued to rise in proportion. This spur to exertion in that branch of industry increased the agricultural produce to that degree, that it would soon have been fully equal to the wants of the country, had not the foreign markets been reopened, and corn poured in in such abundance, as to distress the agricultural interest. When this was discovered, protecting measures were proposed; but those measures came after a large supply had actually been received from abroad, and one very productive harvest, together with this superfluous stock, continued the depression of prices and sunk them yet lower. In addition to these circumstances, the government, who had been purchasers to a considerable amount, withdrew in consequence of the peace from the market. The victualling-office alone had been in the habit yearly of purchasing 200,000 sacks of flour. The commissary general had often made considerable purchases. Whenever government went into the market, the prices were raised in a greater proportion than if the same additional purchases had been made by individuals, because the payment of go, vernment was sure, and its wants were known to be urgent and irresistible. When government withdrew itself and moreover from motives of economy, threw back a considerable quantity of stores into the market, a great fall in price was to be expected. Had parliament interfered by a corn law earlier, much of the evil would probably have been prevented; but the measure which had been proposed had not passed, because the country was not prepared for the measure, and the House was not willing to press it till its necessity should be more generally felt. The parlia had therefore foreborn, till in effect the blow at the agricultural interest had been struck. This blow was not felt by the agriculturists alone, but the suffering was necessarily extended to all who were concerned in its prosperity, especially those who supplied the various articles consumed in agriculture. This distress would continue to be felt until the effect of the diminished prices of agricultural articles should have produced the same reduction in other commodities.

Such were our embarrassments. The remedies which had been proposed were numerous: many were absurd, and many dangerous; and he should therefore forbear to trouble the House with an enumeration of them. There was one, however, which it was proper to mention, that of suspending the usury acts, which had been proposed by an hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Brougham), with a view to the support of credit. If there was a prospect that our difficulties would long continue, and there were not other more advantageous methods of relieving credit, the chancellor of the exchequer said he was not disposed to think lightly of this proposition. But as he had a remedy to propose which would answer the same end, without the same inconveniency which might result from the suspension of the usury acts, he should not now avail himself of that proposition. The remedies which he had to propose might be divided into two classes. The first a diminution of taxation [Hear, hear!]—the other a system of measures for the support of public credit. This last was the most important and the most easy of remedies. To illustrate this observation, he should make use of a vulgar idea, which might, however, serve his purpose better than a more laboured argument. Suppose by a magical operation every individual in the country should find a guinea in his pocket. This supposition was rather visionary, but what would be its effects? Although more than twelve millions of guineas would be thus distributed in the country, no man would be much better able to pay a debt of ten pound than at present. The advantage would be momentary; there would be no relief from the difficulties in which we were now involved. Putting the temporary relaxtion from labour, and some other inconveniencies which would be likely to arise out of the question, it would be some time before this sum accumulated, so as to form a part of the active capital a the country, Now the effect would be far different, if this 12 or 15 millions were distributed among the country banks and other establishments accustomed to afford accommodation to agriculture and to trade. Every man who could give security would be accommodated, trade and agriculture would revive, and our present distresses would vanish. Though it was not his intention to give a guinea to every Oman, nor 15 millions to the country banks (though this had been suggested), yet, from the operation of these two methods of employing a given capital, the different effects of taxation and borrowing might be conjectured. If a tax, to the amount of a guinea on each person, were imposed on the country, supposing it wisely distributed, the effect would not be distressing; but the present distress would be much augmented by taking a sum to the same amount by way of loan from the capitalists. If, therefore, no money were borrowed this year, and a sum of 14 millions were swept away from the public stocks by the sinking fund, a great capital would thus be thrown back into the country, which must have a most beneficial effect on public credit.

During the last year parliament had been under the disagreeable necessity of adding 54 millions to the funded debt of the country; but if now, instead of adding 54 millions, nothing was added, but on the contrary, 14 millions paid off; it was evident that a very beneficial impulse would be given to the general capital of the country; an impulse far better, and far exceeding any that could be afforded by other modes of relief: He had already stated that it was the wish and the intention of government, to provide as much relief as possible to the present difficulties of the country by a diminution of taxation, and compared with last year some considerable diminution would take place, though not perhaps to the extent which many gentlemen might anticipate. By reducing the property tax to five per cent. an immediate diminution of seven million of taxes would be effected, of which sum above four million would fall to the share of the agricultural part of the country; and in addition to that, he hoped he should be able to propose a remission of other taxes which affected the agricultural interest, to the extent of one million. The whole taken together would therefore make a total relief of five million. The reduction of the one million would be divided between the schedule B, of the property tax, called the tenant's tax, and by reducing and removing partially or wholly the tax on farming horses, &c. He was persuaded that that would be found a very important relief; but with respect to a much more important and essential remedy, he apprehended it could be found only in that support of public credit to which he had already referred. It was his most anxious wish not to press upon the money market during the present year, and he hoped he should be able to prove, that the wants of the government might be supplied without any loan whatever, or resorting to any other mode of raising money except the ordinary resources. If, instead of being thus obliged to press on the money market, he was enabled to throw into that market a fresh capital from the sinking fund of fourteen millions, he had no doubt that the effect of that proceeding would be, in the course of a very few months, to relieve in a very considerable degree the distresses under which the country now laboured.

It would now be his duty to state, in a short and summary manner, the principal heads of the public expenditure for the present year. In the course of the evening, an hon. friend of his, one of the lords of the Admiralty, would have to propose a vote for the number of seamen which it was intended to keep up. He would mention, however, that he by no means wished to be understood as laying down the outlines of a permanent peace establishment; he had nothing further in view than merely to state what would be the necessary supplies for the present year, without wishing to say that farther reductions might not be necessary. He felt confident, indeed, that he could point out, in future years, reductions of various kinds to the amount of several millions; but it surely could not be a matter of surprise that we should be unable, in the very first year after the conclusion of so long and extensive a war, to carry all those retrenchments into immediate effect. The House would not fail to recollect that the committee of finance in 1786, three years after the signing of a definitive treaty, held out to the country the probable continuance of some of the war expenses, even as far as the year 1790, being seven years after the conclusion of peace. With respect to the navy estimates, there would be a vote proposed that evening for 33,000 seamen, and in addition to that vote, which would create an expense of 3 millions, the ordi- naries and extraordinaries for the navy would amount to four millions more, making an aggregate of seven millions that branch of the public service. The number of seamen might appear somewhat large, especially when compared with former peace establishments. Between the years 1783 and 1790, the number had varied from 20,000 to 18 and even 16,000; but the House would be aware, after such a war as we had been engaged in, how long it must be before the whole navy could be reduced to a permanent peace establishment. He wished also to mention, that the peace establishment in contemplation did not exceed 23,000 seamen; and that the remaining 10,000 were proposed on account of the squadrons still remaining on foreign stations, and which it had not yet been possible to recall and pay off.

With respect to the army, although it was not intended to propose any vote for that service on the present occasion, yet it might be necessary to enter into a general view of the subject. He wished, however, previously to press upon the attention of the House a distinction which he apprehended was not always kept in view. In comparing the peace establishment of the present with any former periods, it should be recollected that Ireland was now included in the estimate, whereas, before the union of the two countries, Ireland had her own separate establishment. The general amount of force intended to be kept up for home service, including both cavalry and infantry, would be about 25,000 men, in which would be comprehended the number required for the islands of Guernsey and Jersey. An equal number (25,000) would also be kept up for Ireland [Hear, hear! from the opposition benches], making altogether 50,000, to which 3,000 would be added as the proportion of relief for the different garrisons abroad. It would be recollected, that the army maintained in this country had not only to perform the home duty, but it was to be regarded as the reserve from which the gradual and successive relief was to be afforded to our several colonial establishments; for it would be impossible, even if desirable (which it certainly was not), that our soldiers, serving on foreign stations, should be wholly banished and expatriated from their native country. Their return home was not only a measure of humanity, but of sound policy, as being calculated to nourish and maintain that British spirit and feeling, which ought never to be extinguished in the bosoms of our soldiery.

He would now proceed to state the force intended to be maintained in our different colonial establishments. The garrisons of Gibraltar, Malta, and the Ionian Islands would require 11,000 [Hear, hear! from the opposition.] That establishment might appear somewhat large, but it should be recollected, that it was always necessary to keep up a greater force in places which had recently come under our dominion, and where the dissimilarity of manners, habits, and opinions was considerable, than in possessions which, by long connexion, had in some measure assimilated themselves to our political forms. In the different parts of America, including the Canadas, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and the Bahama Islands, there would be 10,000 men; in the West Indies 13,000; four thousand in Jamaica, and the other nine in the remaining islands; at the Cape of Good Hope 3,000; at Mauritius 3,000; and 3,000 at Ceylon. It should be observed, that a part of those establishments consisted of colonial troops, and in the West Indies of black regiments. Formerly it had been the custom to compose them entirely of British; but by the present mode of embodying the natives, there was a saving of British lives to a prodigious extent, as they were able to perform services and endure fatigues, which, from the nature of the climate and other causes, generally proved so fatal to the British. In every point of view, therefore, whether with respect to economy, policy, or humanity, such a mixed establishment was highly desirable; though, as the native troops were not so completely effective as the British, it was found necessary to keep a larger number of them on foot. The garrison of St. Helena would have 1200, the coast of Africa 1000, and 800 for New South Wales, making a total aggregate of 99,000 troops upon the British and Irish establishments. In naming that amount he was to be understood as speaking of the gross establishments to be kept up, and not the actual effective force; for if from the 99,000 nominal force that portion were to be deducted which would not be effective, there would not remain more than from 85 to 90,000 troops. The force serving in France, and to be maintained there for a limited time, amounted to 28,000, exclusive of artillery, which being 2,000, would make the whole number 30,000. In India there was to be 20,000; but for the expenses of that force the company were to provide, and for the support of the force in France no vote would be required from parliament, because the expense was to be defrayed out of the contributions to be paid from the French government to this country. With respect to those contributions, he knew that some doubts of their security existed but if they might judge of the future from the past, there was every reason to be satisfied upon that head. Up to the present day, those contributions had been most regularly and most punctually paid. In the course of the last year, 700,000l. of the money received from France had been applied to the public services of this country; and it was intended to apply the whole to the public service, except such part of them as would be honourably bestowed upon the army, in the way of prize money, for their great and unparalleled exploits. He mentioned those circumstances, because, he believed that in point of law, the contributions of the French government would be of a similar nature with the droits of the Crown, and become the personal property of the sovereign.—[Hear, hear! from the opposition benches.] He would repeat his assertion, that unless he was much mistaken, which if he were, some honourable member might prove, those contributions strictly belonged to the Crown in that quality; but his royal highness the Prince Regent had determined that so considerable a sum, and one so honourably acquired, should be applied to the public service of the country, and in no other manner, with the exception which he had already stated, of a donation to the army as prize money. The amount of that donation would be about one million sterling, to be distributed among the British, Dutch, Hanoverian, Brunswick, and other troops composing the army of the duke of Wellington. He calculated that about 800,000l. would be received in the course Of the present year, and of these as well as all other receipts of the same nature regular accounts would be laid before parliament. The total amount of the army estimates under this head, including many temporary establishments, and exclusive of the extraordinaries, would be nearly 9,300,000l. The commissariat establishment was estimated at 680,000l.; barracks, 258,000l.; and the extraordinaries at about 2,000,000l. The total amount of the military charges for the present year would therefore be about 12,238,000l. The ordnance estimates were in a less forward state, and could not be precisely calculated but he presumed they would be somewhat short of 2,000,000l. though he would take that as a round sum. The miscellaneous services be would, in like manner, estimate at the round sum of 2,500,000l. When the several items came before the House, it would be competent to it to make any reduction it might judge necessary. There remained only one other item upon which it would be requisite to trouble the committee; and that related to re-payments of sums which had been advanced for the public services in India, by the East India company. In consequence of the pressure of the late war in India, applications had been made to the government for the re-payment of a part of those allowances. A minute and accurate investigation of the claims of the company had been entered into, from which it appeared, that they amounted to 2,000,000l.; and of that sum about five or six hundred thousand pounds had been re-paid, which was immediately sent to India, and no doubt it was found a very important and seasonable supply. The total of this joint charge for the united empire, amounted to 24,318,000l. to which were to be added some other items of charge, which make an aggregate of 29,398,000l. From that sum, however, there was to be deducted the Irish proportion, amounting to 2,500,000l. An intimation had been given to the House during the last session, of a plan which was in contemplation, to consolidate the Exchequers of the two countries, and in a short time he should have to submit a proposition to that effect; but he did not think it would be right to postpone the general finance measures of the year till the period of bringing that proposition forward, and of submitting it to a complete and thorough investigation.

He had now come to the last division of his subject, which related to the ways and means by which, in his opinion, if the House should concur in that opinion, it would be most expedient to meet those different heads of expenditure, and he should have the pleasure of beginning them by a very novel and satisfactory item, namely, a surplus of the unapplied grants of the preceding year. He had already stated what considerable sums of the unfunded debt of the country had been liquidated by the application of the surplus of those grants, and he had now the further pleasure of stating, that they might safely take credit for three millions more, as applicable to the public service of the country in the present year [Hear, hear 1]. The next item was the surplus of the consolidated fund, and although it was impossible to determine the precise sum at which that surplus might be taken, until after the 5th of April, yet he was sure he might safely estimate it at 2,500,000l. The ordinary annual taxes he would estimate at 3,000,000l. He also intended to pro, pose the prolongation of some of the war taxes on customs and excise, which had not yet expired. The next item was a five per cent. property tax; but, having in view some reductions, and bearing in mind also some probable diminutions from other causes, he should not estimate its produce at more than 6,000,000l. The lottery he should take at 200,000l. The only remaining item was one with which he should not trouble the committee at any length: he alluded to an advance from the Bank of 6,000,000l. The negociations upon that subject between the god vernment and the Bank, would be found in the papers now upon the table of the House. The expediency of that arrangement would, he apprehended, be obvious to the House; but he wished explicitly to state, that in concluding it, no reference was had to the principle of accommodating the Bank in any way; it originated solely and exclusively from the view of supporting the public credit of the country. Instead of proposing a loan of 12 millions, he preferred the extension, for two years, of half the property tax, and an advance of six millions from the Bank. Of that six millions, one million and a-half would be deducted for the re-payment of an advance which had been made by the Bank some years ago, and therefore only 4,500,0l. would be applicable to the public service of the country. That arrangement would be found, he trusted, most conducive to the support of public credit, and to the public interest. He confidently believed, indeed, that notwithstanding that advance of 4½ millions from the Bank, the outstanding unfunded debt of the country would be less at the end of the year than it was now. If a loan had been raised to the amount he mentioned, he did not imagine it could have been obtained upon better terms than last year; and they would therefore gain all the dif- ference between funding the sum in question now, rather than two years hence. The plan was, he hoped, not only free from all objections, but entitled to considerable praise. As however he should shortly submit a motion upon this subject to the House, with the view of founding upon it an act of parliament, he should not now trouble the House any longer with details upon that transaction. Here the right hon. gentleman in reply to a question asked by Mr. Baring, stated, that the six millions was to be advanced by the Bank at an interest of 4 per cent. being 1 per cent. below the current rate of interest. The total amount of the ways and means he should therefore state at 26,700,000l.

Having thus unfolded at considerable length the general statement of the finances for the year, he should now sit down, and hold himself in readiness to give any further explanations that might be required. He only wished to remind the House once more, that in what he had advanced, he was not to be considered as speaking of a fixed and permanent peace establishment, but merely of the wants of the year, which would have to be supplied. It would be for the wisdom of parliament to determine upon any plans of economy which might appear expedient, and certainly great and important retrenchments would be hereafter practicable. He trusted, however, he had satisfactorily shown that our finances and revenue were in a flourishing and improving condition [Hear, hear!] He should, therefore, conclude by moving the first resolution viz.; 1 "That a sum, not exceeding 11,024,100l. be granted to his majesty, to pay off and discharge exchequer bills made out by virtue of an act of the 55th year of his present majesty, for raising the sum of 12,500,000l. by exchequer bills, for the service of Great Britain, for the year 1815, outstanding and unprovided for."

said, that he would not follow the right hon. gentleman through the whole of his extensive statement; many of the details of which, indeed, it was impossible immediately to understand. Some parts of it, however, he could not pass over in silence. He alluded especially to those passages which related to the enormous military establishment which the right hon. gentleman had declared to be necessary for the country [Hear, hear!] Yes, enormous he would call it, because, in no view of the state of public affairs abroad or at home, did it appear to him to be justifiable. His majesty's ministers had talked a great deal about economy and retrenchment. In no branch of the public service could more benefit be derived from retrenchment, than in that identical one of our military expenditure. Another part of the right hon. gentleman's statement, on which he must say a few words, was that in which he proposed to keep the property tax on foot for two years. For one, he would enter his protest (as he had frequently done before, by his vote) against a single shilling of the revenue being raised by a continuation of the property tax. He intreated the House and the country not to allow themselves to be deceived or cajoled on this subject. If the property tax was continued, they might depend upon it they would see no real retrenchment. As long as that tax was maintained, government would not look seriously for the means of economy, and the only way to compel them to do so was to terminate its existence [Hear, hear!]. In another part of the right hon. gentleman's speech, he talked of an agreement made with the Bank, and adverted to a paper which the right hon. gentleman said was on the table, but which he (Mr. Ponsonby) had not happened to see. After what had passed in the House of Commons last year, it appeared to him that it would be most extraordinary if the right hon. gentleman had made any agreement with the Bank, without the previous sanction of parliament; and if the terms of the bargain mentioned by the right hon. gentleman were all that the public was to expect from the Bank, he totally differed from the right hon. gentleman in his opinion of the transaction; conceiving that on examination, it would prove to be highly disadvantageous rather than beneficial. He was not quite sure that he comprehended the right hon. gentleman's meaning in another part of his speech, and he should be sorry to misstate him. In discussing the best mode of relieving the distress of the land proprietors and landholders, the right hon. gentleman dwelt on the expediency of supporting public credit by abstaining from loans, and then talked of farmers and others obtaining relief through those accustomed channels by which they had formerly received assistance; namely, the country bankers. He fancied he did not quite comprehend the right hon. gentleman. How were the country bankers to obtain the means of affording assistance to the distressed agriculturists? Were they to receive aids from the treasury? [The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied across the table in the negative.] What, then, did the right hon. gentleman confine himself to the expectation that in consequence of money not being raised for the service of the state by loan, country bankers would have more money to lend among the farmers? If that were all, no immediate or extensive relief could be justly anticipated. Unless the property of the farmer were increased so as to enable him to give security for the money advanced to him, he was at a loss to conceive by what magic a banker would be induced to lend him a greater sum than at the present moment. The property of the borower must be first augmented before the lender could be expected to come forward with his money. Otherwise, the operation would indeed be a slow one. The right hon. gentleman had expressed Iris wish, and the general wish of his majesty's servants to retrench the public expenditure. But he was persuaded that reliance could be placed alone on the integrity of parliament, and on the spirit of the people, to compel retrenchment. [Hear, hear!]. If that House did not do its duty, the people would conceive that their representatives had entirely deserted their interest, and that complaisance to his majesty's administration—either the present administration, or any administration by which it might be succeeded—had seduced them to neglect their first and most important duty.

said, that he would not go much farther than his right hon. friend had done in the task of pursuing the right hon. gentleman through his very candid and luminous speech. Various opportunities would offer themselves, in which the minuter details of this comprehensive subject might be more advantageously discussed. Nevertheless, he would, to a certain degree, follow the right hon. gentleman through some parts of his statement, and that in a great measure, because he wished to take the earliest opportunity of protesting against some of the principles which the right hon gentleman had laid down. And this was the more necessary as if no disposition were evinced in the House to question those principles, his majesty's ministers might proceed to carry them into effect. He therefore wished to give the right hon. gentleman the means of affording those explanations which he had so candidly professed his desire to give.—The first object stated by the right hon. gentleman, and declared by him to be uppermost in the mind of every man, was the unexampled distress which prevailed over so large a portion of the country. When he reminded the right hon gentleman of the fine picture painted of the state of the country in the speech from the throne, he was sure the right hon. gentleman must, in common with the House, feel disappointed to find, that when affairs came to be particularly examined, they did not turn out to be quite in so flourishing a condition. It did happen, that although not the first, yet certainly the second consideration in the right hon. gentleman's speech, was how the great and alarming distress which prevailed could most effectually be relieved.

In entering on this consideration, the right hon. gentleman had done him the honour to allude to a suggestion which he had thrown out on the first evening of the session, as one of the best means to relieve the landed interest, namely, a new arrangement, if not the repeal of the usury laws. The right hon. gentleman had omitted to notice the other suggestions which: he had made on the same occasion, and which he would take an opportunity shortly to restate for the right hon. gentleman's candid consideration. But, first: with respect to the proposition for repealing or modifying the usury laws, he confessed that he was by no means satisfied with the grounds on which the right hon. gentleman objected to it. The right hon. gentleman said he hoped the distress was not permanent. It was precisely because he (Mr. Brougham) thought it might not be permanent, that he had made this proposition respecting the usury laws. It was in the ordinary course of events, until the agitation of passing from a state of war to a state of peace had subsided, that during that moment, or rather during that one, two, or three years, great distress should occur. It was on that conviction, and with the hope and expectation that the distress so created would not be permanent, that he had asked, whether it would not be advisable to facilitate to the distressed persons the means of relieving themselves by borrowing money, and thus enabling themselves to hold out, as the phrase was, until their affairs should right,—until the storm should pass over them. This was a most material consideration. Whatever promised to give them the means of living out the storm was too advantageous a hope to be neglected. At the present it was needless to say—for all who were acquainted with the money market knew the fact—that the existing laws, preventing the borrowing of money on mortgage at a higher rate of interest than 5 per cent. had not merely diminished, but had put an entire stop to the practice of borrowing on mortgage. A single instance was sufficient to prove this, and it spoke volumes on the subject. All the life and insurance companies in the metropolis, being wealthy bodies, and having more capital than their immediate necessities required, were in the habit of lending money to other companies and to individuals. Now, if any men or societies were to be expected to advance money on equitable terms, it was these great bodies. They carried on their affairs in a steady and systematic manner, and, in the investment of their money, attended rather to ultimate security than to immediate profit. Of all lenders therefore, from them the most favourable terms were to be looked for. A common Jew or money lender risking his money on inferior security, demanded an exorbitant return. But such was not the case with these solid and respectable bodies. On what terms did they lend their money? In no one instance did they lend a shilling on a regular mortgage at five per cent. A few years ago indeed, the money market was in a different state. But of late (he spoke in the hearing of many who were fully competent to contradict him if he stated any thing but the fact), in no one instance, unless it were some extraordinary cases of great proprietors of houses, who by insuring with them gave them a kind of douceur, did these companies lend a landholder on his estate, or a tenant on his stock, one shilling sterling at 5 per cent. What, then, were the means of employing their funds to which they had recourse? The transaction was this: It was turned into an annuity contract. Money was lent on annuity. Instead of 12, 13, or 15 per cent. which the ordinary money lenders demanded, these companies were contented with perhaps 8 per cent. But then they required that the life of the borrower should be insured. This cost about two per cent.; making in the whole about 10 per cent. for money so advanced. These were the very lowest terms. Some companies required more; some 12, some 13, some even 15 per cent., and of course the annuity was invariably well secured. This one case was as good as five hundred, to show that the usury laws were the sole cause which prevented the old practice of borrowing money on mortgage. It was evident that two per cent. was entirely lost by the conversion of the ordinary practice into an annuity transaction; and with respect to the other 8 per cent. it was increased to that rate partly by the round about nature of the affair, and partly because the private brokers, demanding a great deal more, advanced the money market. Thus therefore, not only the direct 2 per cent., for life insurance was lost to the lender but indirectly a large part of the 3 per cent. that he paid above the five prescribed by law. The result of the whole was, that the borrower, instead of paying only 6½ or 7 per cent. for his money, paid 10 at least, frequently 12, and sometimes 15 per cent. The right hon. gentleman, however, was not for altering the laws, but for affording relief in some other way. His project was to keep public credit high, by not interfering with the money market, and by allowing the sinking fund in its former operation of 12 or 13 millions, or whatever it might be, to redeem so much stock, to be placed in the hands of the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt; and by these sales of stock the right hon. gentleman appeared to expect, that much money would be thrown into the hands of private individuals, who would be enabled to lend it to the land proprietors, and that the good effects of all this would speedily be made manifest. Now, supposing the usury laws to remain in their present state, what right had the right hon. gentleman to expect that in this year, or in the next year, the operation of the sinking fund in thus transferring thirteen millions to private individuals, would be lent at 5 per cent. by those private individuals, with more alacrity than it was now so lent by the insurance companies. To a certain degree this operation might bring down the rate of interest, but no one who knew any thing of the subject could dream that it would induce the lending of money on mortgage at 5 per cent. If the right hon. gentleman reflected for a moment, he must be persuaded that it was visionary to expect that so great and so sudden a reduction, as from 10, 12, or 15 to 5 per cent. in one or two years could take place. He therefore did most earnestly entreat the right hon. gentleman to dismiss this hope, this speculation (for it was no better) from his mind, and taking up the proposition to which, when he originally suggested it, the right hon. gentleman appeared to pay some attention, to consider the expediency of immediately having recourse to that measure which, in the present age, all mankind agreed, was perfectly safe, calculated to afford the greatest measure of relief, and innoxious to the borrower, to the lender, and to the state.

He now begged leave just to advert to some of those other suggestions which he Lad thrown out the other evening, and which the right hon, gentleman had omitted to notice. The right hon. gentleman had said nothing about the removal of the existing restrictions on the exportation of the produce of the landholder, whose wool was now locked up in the island, the exportation of it amounting by law, almost to a felony. Why was not the relief of the foreign market afforded to the landholder by the abolition of these restraints? This would be just as safe an experiment as the abrogation of the usury laws. Not even the right hon. gentleman could be so childish as to think that it would be dangerous. Another mode of diminishing the distress of the landed interest, would be a more equal levy of the poor-rates. At present they fell exclusively on the Land. Yet the law was not so. It was contrary to the tendency, and even to the letter of the statutes, that there should be no levy on the merchant, on the manufacturer, on the professional man, but only on the landholder. By the system at present pursued, a manufacturer living in a house filled with spinning jennies, by which he made 15,000l. or 20,000l. a-year, paid a rate on 300l. or 400l. a-year, while his next neighbour with 15,000l. or 20,000l. a-year in land, paid on the whole of rent. And let it be considered, that to the production of paupers the manufacturer chiefly contributed, and that from them the manufacturer derived a benefit which the landholder never did; but the contrary; as the poor-rates paid by the latter enabled the former to obtain his labour on easier terms. It was true, that to render the levy of the poor-rates more equal, some new machinery must be constructed approaching to that of the income tax, although he trusted, that it need not be so inquisitorial. In any case, the present mode of assessment required modification. He had also ventured to sug- gest some arrangement of the tythes as a measure calculated to render great benefit. He entertained a confident expectation, that this suggestion would not be neglected by those who had the power of carrying into effect any plan that might seem calculated best to conciliate the conflicting interests and feelings on this important subject.

Having said so much on the mode of affording relief to the land-owners and holders, he would now trouble the House with but a few words on the statements submitted to them by the right hon. gentleman. He owned that he participated in a great degree in his right hon. friend's feelings of surprise, regret, and he must say indignation, at hearing that called a peace establishment, which at any former period would have been called a most grievous war establishment. It was true, the right hon. gentleman had said, that the establishment would be greater in the first than it was likely to be in any subsequent year. Unquestionably, in one item it would probably be diminished. There were to be 149,000 men for the service of the year. The right hon. gentleman had stated, that in the present year it was necessary to vote from 40 to 50,000 men more than would be otherwise required, because that number were on their way home. [The Chancellor of the Exchequor said in explanation, that, besides the permanent establishment, there would be 40 or 50,000 men in supernumerary regiments, but in a course of reduction.] Mr. Brougham wished to know, whether the 26 millions voted for the whole supply, naval and military, included the expense of the men just now described by the right hon. gentleman? [The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied in the affirmative.] What prospect then, could the right hon. gentleman have of diminution of expense in the next year, but in that item? [The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, ten thousand seamen.] True, there would be also that diminution. But calculating on those two items of diminished expenditure, what likelihood was there, that in this enormous military establishment of about SO millions, there would be a diminution next year, or the year after, that would reduce it to a less sum than 25 millions? A reduction of five millions was the most that could be expected, even on the right hon. gentleman's own showing. But let the House contemplate the items of which these estimates were formed, Enormous as was to be the military establishment in Great Britain, one as enormous was to exist in Ireland. Let the House reflect on the rapidity with which these establishments grew from war to war, and how at the conclusion of every peace the country was left loaded with a military expenditure, continually increasing: 149,000 men were now to be saddled upon the country, in all probability for a permanency; and this, besides 20,000 in India. It was true, the right hon. gentleman said, that the East India Company were bound to pay for this army. But were we not perpetually making good the arrears of the company? were we not perpetually giving them loans, and was it not therefore a mockery to say that the East India company would pay for these troops? Then there were to be 11,000 men in the Mediterranean. The whole army of England in peace used to be between 4 and 5000 men in all. But this was in better times—in better times with respect to money, and, if he might speak of any thing but of money in a committee of supply, in better times for the constitution. Now, however, the Mediterranean alone required, it seemed, 11,000 men. We were to keep not only Gibraltar, (which no man would be slower to give up than himself, cost what it might), but we were to keep Malta. Why? Egypt, and apprehension for India, gave us no longer a pretext for retaining this island. We no longer feared the ambition of France. But it was the custom to say that we ought to retain Malta, and so we retained it. Then again, why were the seven or eight Ionian islands saddled on us? Productive of nothing else, they were exceedingly rich in patronage. There must be governors, and secretaries, and commanders in chief, and commissaries, and port admirals, and the whole apparatus of patronage. And these were the latent inducements to burden this country with their protection. In the West Indies, where there used to be 7000 men, there were to be 13,000. But to any objection against this, the right hon. gentleman had a triumphant answer, that from the description of force, a large proportion being black troops, a greater number was requisite. To this he readily assented. But, when the right hon. gentleman went on to observe, that we had many more islands to guard, might he presume to request the right hon. gentleman to explain what we gained by retain- ing so many islands? Had we not enough to send our soldiers and sailors out to die in formerly? "But we must keep St. Lucie," said the right hon. gentleman, "because it is a good military and naval, station." Why keep up so large an army in the West Indies? Was our navy more crippled at present than in 1792, 1793, or 1791? Why not trust to the active preparation of the navy on the breaking out of a war, rather than keep up a navy during peace, in order to have something less to prepare in the first year of a war? And why keep all the Dutch colonies? They were never retained before. For his part, he most conscientiously believed that they were kept, on the representation of a certain small class of merchants (whose facer were as well known at the Treasury, as those of the hon. gentlemen opposite), who having invested their capitals in loans to those islands, from which they received valuable consignments, induced government, by persuasions and threats, to keep Demerara, Essequibo, and Berbice, to fill more completely our already glutted markets, to have more sugar, more coffee, more cotton, lest they should lose their consignments, and risk their capitals. Another reason which, he was persuaded, had influenced government to keep these islands was, the expectation of patronage; for not one of them, however useless, or detrimental in other respects, but wag productive in that way. All had their harbour masters, their barrack masters, their little sinecure placemen, and their little operative placemen. Every one was, in short, a little Ionian island. And for this the country was to be saddled with the expense of 13,000 troops.

There were many other objectionable items in the right hon. gentleman's statement, for the discussion of which future opportunities would be afforded. He would for the present confine himself to one. The right hon. gentleman had declared that 25,000 troops would be necessary for Ireland. Mr. Brougham said, he rejoiced to hear at last the name of our sister island introduced. He really had imagined that the session would elapse without any notice of her. In the speech at the opening of the session nothing was said of her. Now, indeed, she was mentioned with a vengeance; for it came out that in time of peace her standing army was to be 25,000 men—the same number required for England, Scotland, Guernsey, and Jersey. There was one means of reducing the expenditure for that country, which did not seem to have entered the minds of the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues, but which pressed itself strongly upon his. Would no saving be practicable in the military expenditure of Ireland by any measure which the British government could suggest for the calming and tranquillizing of the country? Would no amelioration of the Catholic and penal laws produce that effect? Would no such arrangement of tithes as that so often proposed by a right hon. baronet, a friend of his, enable the country to get rid of the monstrous and unheard of burden imposed during a time of peace, when the disaffected in Ireland could have no hope of succour from a foreign enemy, merely to keep that country in a state of quiet? He trusted that the right hon. gentleman would deeply consider this important subject, and lend his assistance to his noble colleague, who, it was generally understood, had devised some plan to give effect to the sentiments which he entertained respecting Catholic emancipation.

He was surprised that no other means should have been proposed by the right. hon. gentleman for affording relief to the extraordinary difficulties under which the agricultural interest at present laboured. Amongst other plans might be suggested a loan in exchequer bills, by which assistance was often granted to different bodies on similar occasions. He was also astonished that the right hon. gentlemen, when alluding to the diminution of expense in the naval establishment, should omit to propose a reduction in the number of the lords of Admiralty. He trusted the hon. baronet opposite (sir George Warrender) would call the attention of the House, when the proper opportunity occurred, to such items of retrenchment in the naval department, as the prodigious change from a state of war to one of profound peace, gave the country a right to expect. One of those items was the diminution of useless offices; and he thought a proposition on that point would come with more grace from the hon. baronet than from almost any other person, as perhaps he would himself lose something by it. They were now, it seemed, to have the assistance of the same number of lords of the Admiralty, and secretaries, as when the whole British navy, amounting to upwards of a thousand vessels, was employed. There were at pre- sent seven lords of the Admiralty: of these, he conceived, four might be dispensed with; nor would he agree to vote a single shilling, on this head, until it was clearly shown, that lord Melville, who was now first lord of the Admiralty, and two puisne lords, could not transact the ordinary business. Of this he was quite certain, that if seven lords were necessary, when there were only about two hundred ships afloat, and those doing very little, that number must have been entirely insufficient, for a state of extensive warfare. If this was the fact, it was something consoling to find, that government had acted with so much economy, in causing the business to be executed by seven lords, when, in fact, ten times that number would not have been too many. If it was found that two hundred vessels required the exertions of seven lords of the admiralty, it was quite evident that a thousand called for a great many more. If seven lords were required to perform the duties now connected with the naval department, it was really astonishing how they had survived the labours of seventy, which, it appeared, they had borne for several years (A laugh). On this, as on other points, he hoped ministers would satisfy the country—going over the estimates, item by item, as they said they would, and as gentlemen on his side of the House had pledged themselves to do. He was anxious, on one important point, to have an explicit declaration from the right hon. gentleman. He would beg of him to look at the peace establishment of 1792, which was in the whole about five millions, and he would ask him how it could happen, France being reduced as she now was, Europe being leagued against her, her power being broken, and ours not only untouched, but greater than ever it was—having no enemy, nor prospect of an enemy—when France was so bowed down, that her situation, under Louis 14, in 1703, was a state of triumph and pride compared with it—this being the posture of affairs, he would ask the right hon. gentleman, why the practical result should be, that the public purse should be saddled with a peace establishment of between twenty-five and thirty millions? The right hon. gentleman denied the depreciation of the paper currency; therefore, he could not take credit for the rise in every necessary of life. But he would give him the benefit of that argument—and, allowing that the price of every thing was at present double what it was in 1792, why should the peace establishment be six times greater now than it was then? This was a grave and serious question. Every man in the country ought to be satisfied of the necessity of such an immense establishment, before it was voted; and he would prophecy, that the right hon. gentleman could not keep it up for a single year, without he could give a triumphant answer to the question he had asked. The ways and means would undoubtedly be fully considered at another period. On them, he should, therefore, say little at present. With respect to the agricultural interest, all the relief, it appeared, that the right hon. gentleman could extend to it, consisted in the taking off a part, and a very small part of the tenants' property tax, and the whole of the tax on horses used in husbandry. That tax, though oppressive, was the smallest in amount, of all those that bore on husbandry; and it was a mockery to suppose, that any substantial relief would be derived from its cessation. There was another tax, which, if taken off, would afford considerable relief; he meant the tax on leather. The repeal of that tax, which pressed heavily on agriculture, would do much good; and he begged the House to recollect, that when a motion was made to discontinue it, that motion was lost by only a majority of one. The right hon. gentleman had said nothing whatever about the war malt tax, which not only affected the grower of barley, whom it ruined, directly, but every person who had servants to provide with meat and drink. The propriety of suffering this tax to exist was a question well worthy the consideration of the House, and he was happy that the hon. member for Norfolk (Mr. Coke), had given the House, on a former evening, reason to hope that be would speedily introduce this important subject to their notice.

Last of all, he would allude to the great burthen, the property tax, which, reduced one-half, was to be continued. He could not impress too deeply on the public mind the unequal manner in which this tax operated, nor could he sufficiently reprobate the inquisitorial mode of its collection. It injured in a greater proportion than it oppressed—it injured in a higher degree than it produced revenue—and he was willing to admit that it was a most productive tax. The very circumstance of its being so productive, formed one of his strongest grounds of objection to it (Hear, hear! from the ministerial benches). It did so, because such a productive tax was likely to render ministers more saving and economical than those now in power, profuse and extravagant. He hoped that this tax would never be agreed to by parliament. He hoped the country would rise as one man against it. The House had an earnest of that in the petitions already laid on their table; and, he trusted, that in the course of a few weeks, the chancellor of the exchequer would be compelled to come down and state, that he had, instead of bringing forward the property tax, made a small loan, the interest of which would be charged on the sinking fund. He was much surprised, that, in enumerating the ways and means, the right hon. gentleman had not noticed the sum due by Austria to this country. The finances of Austria were now in a flourishing state—she kept armies abroad for the purpose of enforcing the payment of the expenses to which the war had put her. Any person who knew the situation of Austria, and who was acquainted with the nature of military finance, must feel astonished that this, our good and faithful ally, who was spoken of as having always been so true to her engagements, was not called on to pay her just debts. Why should she not now come forward—not to lend us money (no country lent money but this), not to give us money—but to pay that which she had borrowed from us? When this subject was formerly mentioned, they were told that her faith was undoubted (though, by the bye, she had broken faith with this country a short time before), but that her finances were in such a dilapidated state, as rendered it impossible for her to pay the principal of the debt, but that she would pay the interest. This she did for two or three years, and then even the interest was neglected. Well, if she could not pay the principal, her finances, he supposed, were now sufficiently improved to enable her to pay the interest. That, he believed, would amount to four or five millions. Such a sum would be of great, use to the country at the present moment. Four or five millions, placed under the control of the chancellor of the exchequer—a sum which he never thought of, and which, of course, must be unappropriated—would be an exceedingly handy thing. It would enable him to give up the war malt tax, which produced 2,000,000l. and the farmer's property tax, 2,500,000l. Nothing was said on this point, and he would venture to predict, that nothing would be said, in the course of this session, relative to it. No effort would be made to compel that great and rich power to repay her just and fair debts. The hon. and learned gentleman asked pardon of the House for having detained them so long; but he could not suffer the present occasion to pass without throwing out, for the consideration of the House, those hints which he had deemed it necessary to submit to them and to the country.

said, he did not mean to follow the hon. and learned gentleman through all his details, but would merely offer a few observations on certain points which he had introduced in his speech. The hon. and learned gentleman had argued that the laws against usury ought to be repealed. He, however, could see no reason, at the present time, for adopting such a measure, that did not exist, at any former period, when a scarcity of money prevailed. In the peace which succeded the American war, money was much scarcer than it was now, and yet no suggestion for a repeal of those laws had been offered. He did not know, but that, under circumstances of peculiar pressure, such a repeal might be useful; but he was sure that such a pressure did not at present exist. The hon. and learned gentleman had next adverted to the poorsrates. No subject had ever been discussed in that House more frequently or inure seriously than this. Many plans had been proposed for the regulation of those rates, but none of them had been found adequate to the necessary relief either to the landed interest or to the house-holder. The hon. and learned gentleman admitted, that the fault was not in the law itself, but in the mode of its execution. If the hon. and learned gentleman would look to the law, he would find, that it did provide for assessing the manufacturer. If he thought its operation was not sufficiently strict, he ought to point out the way in which the law should be altered. It certainly bore hard on the land-holder, but the hon. and learned gentleman himself allowed that a great part of the agricultural labour was paid out of the poor-rates. Shopkeepers and others who paid the poor-rates, assisted in supporting the agricultural labourer.—The hon. and learned gentleman had also adverted to tithes which was a very popular subject. This question too had been much considered by the House; but no effectual remedy had been devised. He regretted this; but when they knew that no remedy could be introduced to meet the difficulties of the case, it was not in his opinion, wise to stir the question; and those who did introduce it, ought to point out a mode by which the evil might be cured. The hon. and learned gentleman had made some observations on the propriety of permitting the exportation of wool. This country imported that article from Germany, Spain, and Portugal. In France it was most abundant. He was at a loss, therefore, to know where it could be exported to. If such exportation were allowed, and markets presented themselves, the effect would be, that the price of our manufactures would be very much raised.—With respect to the public expenditure that would come under the consideration of the House distinctly, item by item; he should not, therefore, offer many remarks on that part of the hon. and learned gentleman's speech which related to it. The hon. and learned gentleman deplored our keeping garrisons in the West India islands, and insinuated that they were kept up merely for the purpose of affording a little paltry patronage. He had first spoken of the Ionian islands. What was the patronage there? He believed there was one commissioner and one secretary, This was an instance of the patronage he had magnified so much. "In God's name," said the hon. and learned gentleman, "why keep garrisons in the West India islands? Leave them to themselves in time of peace, and send out garrisons in time of war." Now it would be well if gentlemen would recollect what had occurred in former times. At the commencement of the American war the count Bouille sailed with a small force from Martinique and took Dominica, while admiral Barrington lay at Barbadoes. When he arrived, forty-eight hours afterwards, he found that count Bouille had captured the island, which was retained by France during the continuance of the war. This achievement was not effected by a formidable expedition; the troops employed in it were, in fact, only a part of the garrison, of Martinique. From Dominica, they proceeded to St. Christopher's and St. Eustatia; in short they made a sweep of our islands. The hon. and learned gentleman seemed to think very little of the commerce of those islands. Now, he believed, that one fourth of our shipping was employed in that very commerce; and the hon. and learned gentleman should recollect how much our naval strength depended on the extent of our trade. Besides this, the West India islands consumed our manufactures to the amount of five millions annually; and the revenue produced by the duties paid on the different articles imported from them, was not less than five or six millions. But all this was left out of sight by the hon. and learned gentleman; and the house were told that no object, but that of paltry patronage induced ministers to have those islands garrisoned. With regard to the peace establishment, he should say nothing until it came more distinctly under the consideration of the House. It was useless to talk loosely of the military force to be continued, whether 120,000 or 150,000 men. With respect to the navy no man, he was sure, would hold up his finger against the proposition that would be made with reference to it. He had not the same means of judging of the military arrangements, but he had no doubt that they would be fully justified by the occasion. The hon. and learned gentleman had implored the discontinuance of the property tax. That depended entirely on circumstances. If a great establishment was necessary, there must be a productive revenue to support it; and he was sure the mind of man could not devise means so just, so proper, and, on the whole, so wise, as this tax. Now what had this tax effected. When it was first imposed, it was for the purpose of raising the national credit, then at its lowest ebb. The three per cents. were, at the time, down to 47. Navy bills were at a discount of 15 per cent. The person who had purchased them, received 85l. for his 100l. The stocks were extremely low, every thing was going downwards, and a gloomy prospect of misfortune opened to the country. A property tax of five per cent. was then proposed,; it was afterwards raised to 6¼, and ultimately to 10 per cent. And here it should be remembered, that this great rise in the tax was made by the friends of the hon. and learned gentleman, when they were in power. They were the persons who raised it, and who took away some of those abatements in its collection, which were thought wise and proper originally. Let the House now look to its effects. It had saved a capital of 300 million: but for it, a debt to that amount would have been contracted; and it had also saved taxes to the amount of 12,000,000l. a year more. The hon. and learned gentleman said, that in a few weeks the table would be covered with petitions against this tax. He doubted this very much. Last year many petitions were presented against it; but when it was found that his right hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if this tax were withdrawn, would be obliged to propose others, more odious and oppressive, a very great change of opinion took place. He did not however, doubt, but that petitions would be introduced against the renewal of the tax; for if people were told that, by petitioning, they would certainly get relief; they would naturally take the advice given them. He recollected a meeting which he attended in the country, where it was proposed to petition against the tax. Every hand was held up in favour of the proposition, which was seconded by a friend of his, who paid nearly 3,000l. per annum property tax. If any person had then stated, that if the tax were removed, the sum which this gentleman paid must be provided for by some other tax, which would probably fall on individuals not so wealthy as he was, he had no doubt that some difference of opinion would have been excited. Before gentlemen ran away with the notion that the property tax ought to be repealed, they should consider the great advantages that had been derived from it. There was not a stockholder who was not now a richer man, in consequence of its operation, than he would have been, if it had never been enacted. The 3 per cents. were at 47, when it was proposed. Would they not have fallen to 40, 35, or 30—would not the funds have been nearly annihilated—if this salutary measure had not been introduced? The 3 per cents. were now at 60; last year they were at 65. The holder, therefore, of 10,000l. stock, at the time the tax was proposed, after deducting what be had paid, was now 500l. richer than he would have been, if it had not been agreed to. He felt that the tax bore hard on certain classes of the people; but any other tax, that would produce twelve millions annually, would bear on them still harder.

repeated his arguments on the evil effects of the usury laws, and strongly impressed on the House the necessity of extending immediate and effectual relief to the agricultural interest. The delay of one year more would place them, he feared, in such a ruinous situation, that all the efforts of government would be ineffectual to redeem them from it. The landed interest was exceedingly impoverished. Landed property had fallen 30, nay, he might say, 50 per cent in value within the last two years. What Le had predicted two years ago had happened. The money capitalist had got rich, while the landed capitalist became poor. If relief was not extended to the farmers, he doubted very much, should the property tax be renewed, whether they would be able to pay it. At present, it was with the utmost difficulty they could pay the ordinary taxes. He, himself, knew a farmer, possessing 300l. a year, who had nothing better than water to drink. In many instances, the taxes were absolutely paid, not in money, but in kind—which was a clear proof of the inability of the farmer, and showed that there was a point, beyond which taxation could not proceed. With respect to tithes, something ought to be done. A plan, he conceived, could be devised, which would be at once useful to the landholder, and agreeable to the clergyman—a plan that would render the latter more rich, more comfortable, and more respectable.

said, that the expectations of relief which were held out to the farmers, would, if nothing more were done for them than what the right hon. gentleman stated, be ultimately fallacious. The relief mentioned by the right hon. gentleman would be found totally inadequate to remove the pressure by which they were now weighed down. The tax on agricultural horses was to be discontinued. Now, take a farm of three hundred acres, and employing sixteen horses, the tax for those horses would amount to 12l. per annum—that was the whole extent of the sum saved to the farmer by the discontinuance of the tax. If the property tax was renewed to any extent, the farmer had certainly a right to pay it from the clear profits of the land. The only just way of assessing him, was to charge him to the extent of his real property. On that ground alone could it be levied with justice and equity, if it was to be levied at all. If there must be a tax on the profits derived from trade, it was fair that it should equally extend to the real profits on agriculture. But at this moment, a great effort must be made to lift up the agricultural interest from the depressed state in which it was placed. It was in vain to propose taxes, unless profits existed by which they could be met. Now, he would contend, and he was unwilling to draw gloomy or desponding pictures, that the country, in its present state, did not possess profits from which taxes could be drawn. The land had borne more than it had a right to do; the rental, in fact, no longer existed. After paying all the expenses of cultivation, there absolutely remained nothing for rent. In such a state of things, it was clear that a great effort must be made. While this pressure existed, some indulgence should be shewn to the agricultural interest, until it was enabled to bear the necessary burthens. A great part of the arable lands absolutely paid no rent; and where rent was received, it was not derived from the profits of the land, but was supplied by money taken out of the capital of the farmer. Both with a view to the interests of the public, and to the future state of the revenue, it was imperatively necessary that agriculture should be relieved from its present depressed state. If this was not done, the agricultural interest must inevitably be ruined, and thus they would cut, from under their feet, the ground on which alone a flourishing revenue could hereafter be raised. The hon. gentleman then adverted to the income tax, the inquisitorial nature of which he strongly reprobated. It was a screw, and a very dreadful one, to force out the wealth of the country. But there must be something for it to work upon. In order to derive a revenue from any subject, it was necessary in the first place, that the source of it should exist, the tax could not create it: now if, by enforcing the property tax, so much was extracted from the capital of the farmer, we should ultimately diminish instead of increasing the resources of the country. Nor was it the obnoxious nature of this tax that constituted the sole objection to it: after the pledge that had been regularly given by every minister since its first imposition, that it should terminate on the cessation of the war, he thought its continuation after that period would be a breach of faith disgraceful to the country.

said, that when the people were made acquainted with the proceedings of that night, it did not require the gift of prophecy to foresee, that they would be sunk in universal gloom and despondency. It was impossible but that they must feel the utmost discontent and even indignation, when they considered the mockery which had been practised by his Majesty's ministers, in putting the word economy into the mouth of the Prince Regent, when it was evident that they would never see it any where else. At such a time as this, the people naturally expected economy, and he hoped they would declare their determination to have it, in that firm, bold, and yet constitutional language, which no minister would dare to withstand. It could not be denied that the distress of the country was now greater than it ever was before. There was but one remedy for that distress, a reduction of taxation, and that could only be effected by retrenchment, in every branch of the public expenditure. Where should the people look for the example of economy but in the establishment of the Prince Regent—in the establishment of him who was called the father of his people. There the example should be found, and it should be followed in every department of the state. When they talked of economy on former occasions, they had been told of the imposing situation in which the country stood. Would to God they could do away with that imposing situation, if it was to be supported by such a load of taxation! Would to God they had availed themselves of that which Providence gave them, their insular situation, to keep out of continental quarrels! When we saw labourers without work—when small shop-keepers were without customers—when tailors, shoe-makers, and other handicraftsmen were starving for want of employment—it could afford them but little satisfaction to be told by the magistrate to whom they applied for a scanty subsistence, "Your distresses are certainly very severe, and there is little hope of amendment—but there is this consolation, that you are covered with glory! You have assumed a most imposing situation—your armies have expelled one despot and set up another—you have a prince who has so much dignity, that he expends as great a sum on a thatched cottage, as another monarch would on a palace; so dignified is he, so magnificent are his ideas, that he cannot endure to see the same furniture in his house for two successive years—he is such a friend to trade, that he cannot give less than S00 guineas for a clock—and such a protector is he of the arts, that he pays 6000l. for a Chinese cabinet.—(Laughter).—He has more lords of the bed-chamber than were ever heard of at any former period of English history. And perhaps in a few weeks you may have the delight of contemplating a corps of royal dancers!" When gentlemen talked of royal economy, or rather of royal extravagance, they were immediately told that there was a plot to vilify and degrade the royal family. If such a plot existed, it was formed by those who encouraged in his royal highness this system of extravagance. The dignity of the Prince would be better kept up, if his expenditure were diminished. He wished to God some of his advisers would state to him the principal causes of the French revolution, amongst which would be found royal extravagance.

protested against the recent bargain concluded with the bank. After what had passed in the course of the last session, when it was understood that all consideration of this subject should be deferred to the present session, and after he had given notice of a motion relative to the transactions between government and the bank, he conceived that it was not fair or candid to have adopted such a proceeding. It was a mockery of the House of Commons to say, that by this loan, as it was called, the public derived any benefit from the immense profits—eleven or twelve million made by the bank. The case was neither more nor less than this, that the bank proposed to lend to the public six million of the public money, at an interest of 4 per cent.

was astonished, after the pledge that had been given, that the property tax should be retained. He would call on the committee to imitate the conduct of the minister at the close of the American war. At that period the supply demanded was 14 millions and a half, to maintain army, navy, ordnance, colonies, garrisons, and all the various items of expense [No, no, from the treasury benches]; say 17 millions then; but he must observe on the wide difference between that period and the present. Had we not now been victorious? An hon. friend of his, the member for Banbury, had objected to the war, because it was to be continued till the whole army of France was destroyed; such an object was then ridiculed as absurd in the highest degree; and yet it had been accomplished? If, then, we were secure, why were 99,000 men any longer necessary? If neither France nor Spain had any navy, surely our colonies were safe? He would admit that Malta was less secure in the affections of its inhabitants than it might be ten years hence, when the British government should be better understood; and the same might perhaps be said of the Ionian isles. But he thought the Cape of Good Hope and the Canadas might raise a species of home force for their own protection, and he was certain that if a proper survey were taken, the country might sit down with a less establishment than that at present proposed.—He should add a word or two on the agricultural distress of the country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, that a proportion of the taxes was to be paid from rent; but he was ready to show, at any time or place that there was no justice in this; nor could there be justice, unless the tax were apportioned to the profits. From the 10th of October last the tax was not yet levied, and if it were to be levied, it would be levied, not from profit, but from loss. The farmers, he thought, had a claim for some retrospective alleviation; indeed, any alleviation that could be devised for their distress, must be retrospective. It was not a wise policy to see the agricultural capital absorbed in taxes, and the farmers who made good their spring payments, could only do so out of their capita. He was sorry to find that one great topic of distress had been altogether omitted. Though he agreed that the extraordinary stimulus given to agriculture during the war was one great cause of its depression now—though he also admitted the great effect of the government purchases—yet a still more operative cause of the prevailing distress was the sudden withdrawing of a great mass of capital from circulation. Prices fell because they were expected to fall; bankers stopped their usual advances, and drovers, hucksters, and all petty chap-men who frequented markets, and traded solely on the strength of those advances, were checked in their bargains. In two years not less than 25 millions had been withdrawn from circulation, and this could not happen without causing great distress, and a great alteration of circumstances. The value of the stockholder's property was increased, while that of the land-holder was equally depressed. He wished, therefore, to press it on the house, that it was absolutely necessary to revert to some currency less liable to such alarming fluctuation. If we included the exchequer hills, we should find that nearly forty mil- lions had been suddenly withdrawn from circulation. The hon. gentleman concluded by stating that his particular object in rising was to deprecate any further resort to the property tax.

condemned the admixture of varied and distinct topics, which characterised the speech of the chancellor of the exchequer. This sort of jumble he was convinced was merely intended as a lure to ensure the support of the land-holder to the general system of the minister. On the subject of the agricultural interest he would now be silent, as that question would, in a few days, come more regularly before them. On the corn law system he would be also silent; except merely to state, that his former opinions were not only unchanged, but confirmed by subsequent events. The agricultural interest was confessedly oppressed, and entitled to relief, but a relief proportioned to that afforded to the other classes of the community. It should have a specific concession; and when it clearly produced no profit, like the merchant or manufacturer, it ought to have an exemption from a suitable proportion of the burthen to which it was exposed by the property tax. The tenant, in particular, was entitled to this allowance; indeed, by the treasury letter circulated during the recess, government seemed conscious of the necessity of doing something of this kind; but they rendered their avowed intention nugatory, by confining the proposed relief to a certain class of tenants under lease to their landholders, overlooking the plain fact, that the uncertain state of things between the parties for the last few years had prevented any matured arrangement which could bring them within the letter of the proposed concession. As to the mode of relieving the agricultural interest, if it could be done by a loan of exchequer bills, as in mercantile affairs, Le could see no reason why they should not be advanced. But he greatly feared this could not be done in the one case as in the other, with any thing like a similarity of benefit, and he still more apprehended that the small concession of agricultural taxes now held forth, was merely meant as a bait to induce one class into an acquiescence of a system, the result of which would prove equally oppressive to all. The right hon. gentleman had claimed credit for the statement he had brought forward. If he had lost his great battle, we might, perhaps, allow him some credit; but after such sums had been already voted, and after a war that had continued but a few weeks, he was suprised that the demand should be so considerable. The right hon. gentleman said that 21 millions of exchequer bills, and 21 millions of old claims, had been liquidated. This was not a saving of 42 millions, but only of 21; for the other 21 were provided for last year. The artifices employed by the right hon. gentleman could not be clearly seen through till he brought to our astonished minds the view of the establishment. If we recollected the peace establishment of last year, it was only 17 millions for England, and 19 for England and Ireland. After this, upon Buonaparté's landing in France, what was the excuse for war? Truly, because we could not have a peace establishment with Buonaparté on the the throne; even before that, it was alleged, that though the Bourbons were on the throne, they were endangered by a mutinous army; but now, when we had got the better of all this; when the Bourbons had not 10,000 men at their disposal, and that 10,000 they dared not embody; when we had all Europe for our allies; when not a whisper of apprehension was breathed, we were called on for an establishment five times greater than ever was known in time of peace before. He trusted the House would not be a party to so scandalous a measure; if they were, they would, by such a dereliction of duty, deservedly bring on themselves the tatter contempt of the whole British people.

said, it struck him, that the proper subject for consideration on the present occasion was, what shall be the amount of the permanent establishment of the country? When he heard from the chancellor of the exchequer that there was only to be a reduction of the war taxes to the amount of seven millions, that one half of the income tax was to be continued, and that even in profound peace we were to maintain a military force of 99,000 men, from which we had no chance of relief, it struck him with amazement that any set of ministers should propose such an establishment, after the burthens which the people had so long patiently borne, and the general distress which prevailed. That he had not stated the proposed amount of our military establishment too high, clearly appeared from this—that the chancellor of the exchequer mentioned the amount of the force re- quired for Great Britain at 25,000 men for Ireland at 25,000, and 49,000 for our colonies, including the army in France: and this the right hon. gentleman stated at the very time when he professed he saw the prospect of security at home, and general tranquillity abroad. Why, then, was this enormous taxation to be continued for so unnecessary, so unconstitutional a purpose, as the support of such an immense standing army? Be wished to abstain, at present, from entering into any discussion as to the means of raising the supplies. This, however, he must say, that whatever pledge was given to the public creditor, that the sinking fund should be held sacred, a pledge equally strong had been given to the country that the war taxes, and especially the income tax, should be discontinued on the arrival of peace. To appropriate, therefore, a part of the sinking fund to the supplies of the year, would not be a greater breach of faith to the fundholder, than the continuance of the war taxes was to the country. But if this was deemed objectionable, then he would say, relieve the culties under which the people labour by small loans, till the expenses of the state shall be reduced. The faith of parliament was as much pledged to the reduction of the war taxes, as to the inviolability of the sinking fund, which the chancellor of the exchequer himself had already broken. He conjured the house to pause before it consented to the financial measures proposed by ministers: it would inevitably forfeit all the remaining confidence of the public, if it consented to perpetuate the war taxes, and especially the income tax. Such was the situation of the people at large, that they must have relief from the burthens which they had long patiently borne; and in this view the trifling reduction of the farmer's income tax, and of the tax on horses employed in agriculture, held out as a boon by the chancellor of the exchequer, was perfectly inadequate to the purpose. He said, he was anxious to press upon the House that taxation was the main cause of all the distress which prevailed among the agricultural classes, and that nothing but a reduction of the taxes could restore the people of this country to that state of comfort and enjoyment which they had a right to expect after so many sacrifices.

protested against the language made use of by gentlemen on the other side of the House, and more espe- cially by the hon. gentleman who had spoken last. They seemed to wish to have it understood, that the establishment proposed this year was a permanent establishment. Now, if he had understood his right hon. friend, his proposal related merely to the establishment for the present year, and the permanent military establishment was to come afterwards under the consideration of the House. It was not to be expected that in the first year after the termination of a long war the country could at once be brought to a state so desirable. Had we at once gained the regular peace establishment so soon after the close of former wars? After the American war, Mr. Pitt had called for extraordinary aids for the next three years. He did not hope to see the country brought to its proper peace establishment before the year 1786, the peace having been concluded in 1783. He was anxious that the question, as to the extent of the force to be kept up during the peace, should receive the fullest consideration of that House. Heretofore, the improvident narrowness of the peace establishment, had, as it appeared to him, caused much of the subsequent difficulties of the wars in which the country had been engaged. On the present occasion he trusted this error would be carefully avoided. But when he said this, did he wish for an extravagant peace establishment? No. All he wished for was an establishment suitable to the character of the country. What had been sufficient in former times, would not do for what the nation had now become. First, it was proper that our extended possessions should be looked to, that a just idea might be formed of the forces necessary to keep them securely ours; and we ought then to look at the warlike feelings excited throughout Europe, which could not speedily subside. In saying this, he did not mean to speak against the peace—the peace was the most glorious to be found in our annals, and he hoped those who with him had witnessed the vicissitudes of the last contest would live to see war no more. But be was convinced the way to see war no more, was to keep the country well armed, and ready to repel the attacks of its enemies—for enemies it had (as a nation like England ever must have), not only in Europe, but in other parts of the world. Protesting against the attempts which he had risen to oppose, he should not now go into the question of what ought to be the permanent peace establishment; but this he would say, that no measure of precaution ought to be neglected. Though Buonaparté's army was now disbanded, no man could say that it might not one day rise from its ashes. The English army now in France, of which so much had been said, it ought to be remembered was no great burthen to this country, as it was not paid by the British, but by the French government. The army of the East-India Company, too, was not maintained at the public expense. That part of the military force to be kept up, which it was most painful to contemplate, was the army of Ireland; but the necessity for keeping troops in that country, could not be questioned. In future years (in a year or two hence, he meant), it would be for the House to consider what ought to be the peace establishment of the country, and within that period he hoped a great diminution of the public expenditure would take place.

thought that gentlemen could not too early protest against this enormous and unconstitutional establishment, which was altogether unprecedented in the history of our country, an establishment such as our best writers and statesmen had always considered as unnecessary and dangerous to the liberties of the country. Those gentlemen who were not in the secrets of government, had all fully participated in the surprise which he had felt on hearing that an establishment, in time of peace, of 99,000 was to be borne by this country. With respect to the credit which his Majesty's ministers and their adherents took for procuring such a large force as 30,000 to be supported by France, he thought this was the very worst feature of the whole. He knew no control possessed by parliament over the army but from the provisions in the mutiny act and the power of withholding its support. In the first case he did not see how an army employed in France could be controlled by parliament; and the second control had also been taken out of their hands. And this army of 30,000 men, placed beyond the control of parliament, was no farther from us than a country within a few miles of our own shores. Good God! did not parliament declare that the compact with the people was broken by king James 2, by the dispensing power to which he laid claim; and yet this proper dispensing power, this army in French pay, but under the command of a British king, was now proposed to the House as a subject for their congratulation!

said, he had been in hopes that, in the continuance of the income tax as proposed, annuitants and others would have met with further indulgence. The removal of the horse tax, he conceived, would do little to alleviate the distresses of the farmers. It appeared to him, that the tenants' income tax was originally proposed on an exaggerated scale of their profits, at least as far as related to Wales. In that part of the country he knew farmers were rented to the amount of 200l. and 300l. a year, and who yet were under the necessity of working as hard as any of their servants, who lived in the most miserable cottages and on the hardest fare, and who, in addition to the poor-rates, had to pay the income tax, formed on an exaggerated estimate of their profits.

was of opinion that the repeal of the usury laws would not produce the effect intended. He said, he was disposed to place confidence in ministers, in regard to the amount of the establishments of the country; but he wondered how the chancellor of the exchequer could propose the continuance of the income tax, when parliament stood pledged to the contrary. If the right hon. gentleman persisted in this measure, be trusted it would undergo considerable modifications.

was anxious to lead the attention of the House to the question now before it; from the consideration of which it had been drawn by the course of the debate. He thought, from the parliamentary dexterity which had been displayed by the gentlemen opposite, that the speech of his right hon, friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, did not appear to be perfectly understood. At the conclusion of what was admitted to be a most glorious peace, his right hon. friend had called for supplies to meet the charge of the first year, amounting to 29 or 30 millions. But, because such a sum was now required, this was to be considered as the charge of the permanent peace establishment. Many of the grants now necessarily called for had nothing at all to do with the peace; were, in truth, as much voted for war as any of the sums moved for at the close of the last session of parliament. Any gentleman acquainted with the nature of public business, and who looked at the state of the country with an official eye, could not but perceive, that it was impossible to come all at once to a peace establishment. With our naval and military means spread over so vast a theatre, it stood to reason, a long time must elapse before this could be completely effected. It must take a considerable time to disembody the militia; a more extended period must be allowed the breaking up any part of our regular military establishments; and one still longer for the reduction of our navy. He admitted that the army was the great feature on which the House would have to debate. But here it should be considered that there was a large force of 40,000 or 50;000 men, many of whom had only just arrived, or were arriving in the country, that would cost at least 1,200,000l. for the present year, even though they were discharged the moment the hand of office could operate upon them. For the navy, in the present instance supplies would be required for 33,000 men but this number would be diminished in the course of the year, as it was not intended to keep up a force of more than 23,000. Here would be a saving of 10,000 men, which would take off at least two millions from the seven millions which was now set down as the estimated expense of the navy. His right hon. friend had called for 1,500,000l. for re-payments to be made to the Bank; but this of course would not be an annual charge. His statement also comprised 2,000,000l. to pay off the interest of exchequer bills, a sum greater than what would hereafter be necessary for such a purpose, when that mass of bills were taken up which it was the intention of government to discharge. For the miscellaneous services, 2,500,000l. were called for, and 2,000,000l. for the ordnance; but these, like the former, were not to be viewed as permanent charges. If he were to follow the estimates throughout, he doubted not he could point out many other items with respect to which a similar observation might be made. He might mention the East India military debt; but he had already pointed out at least eight or nine million which might be deducted from the supposed amount of the permanent expenditure of the country. It had not occurred to the hon. gentleman opposite to make these remarks, because they chose to argue on the supposition that the present charge was to be that of the regular peace establishment. It was curious to observe in what a different situation they had been pleased to put the country this evening, from what they usually described as that which belonged to it. It was common for them to represent it to be in the most alarming state, to show the conduct of its allies suspicious, and the peace altogether lamentably insecure. But they had turned round to night and stated our situation to be so happy, and the peace so little likely to be disturbed, that a military force was not wanted for our security. He, for his own part, could not go quite so far as they did on this occasion. He was decidedly against lulling ourseleves into a belief that while the other powers of Europe kept up formidable armies, this was the only country which could do without the support of a military force. When other states took an attitude so imposing, prudence demanded a corresponding exertion on our part. At the same time he wished no inordinate establishment to be kept up, and at the proper time he purposed to go through that now recommended by ministers, and compare it in every part with that of 1792, and show the reasons which had influenced the conduct of government wherever that was departed from. Certainly he could not recommend such an establishment as that of 1792; it had often been spoken of by Mr. Pitt himself with much regret. He had stated himself to have been at that time much deceived, as another great statesman of that day had been, when he was led to consider France as in a manner blotted from the chart of Europe, and he knew Mr. Pitt had lamented nothing more than that he should have suffered the peace establishment of 1792 to be fixed on so low a scale. The noble lord deprecated such a course on the present occasion. If the expense was considered, and the strong measures which had been resorted to in order to raise that army which had finally conquered peace, were borne in mind, he hoped the House would be most careful to guard against such a state of things as would again subject us to the necessity of making those stupendous and unnatural efforts to create a military force, to which we had once been obliged to submit.—He should now take a view of the peace establishment of 1802. At that period it was thought expedient to keep up a force of 23,000 men for Ireland, and 43,000 for England, With respect to Ireland, however ripe she might be for that great measure which he wished adopted for her relief, he could not expect that it would effect a change so rapidly in her feelings and situation as to make the pretence of the force now proposed to be kept up in that country unnecessary. If this were admitted, and no objections were made to the number of troops for Ireland, it would be seen that the army to be maintained in England was less than that which parliament had agreed to support in the year 1802; and indeed lower than he should think it ought to be, if he did not consider the force now in France completely at the command of this government. That army would at least serve as our vanguard, if hostilities should be commenced abroad; it served to guard the peace from violation, and performing that service, almost at their own doors, could if necessary be brought borne in the course of a few hours. He would ask those who highly praised the peace establishment of 1792, if they would be disposed to break up our present military institutions? If they did not wish to preserve our military schools; our dock-yards; our fortifications; our ordnance establishments: If they did not wish to keep the colonies we had acquired in war, why then, it should seem, they desired that we should depart from the high situation we now held in Europe. He wished the House to look at this question with a calm and cool understanding. He held the subject to be most important, and was anxious that it should receive due consideration. If they were to give up the colonies which the country had acquired in war, and the other objects which he had enumerated, then the army might be reduced to that scale which the gentlemen opposite were inclined to recommend: but if the value of these things were felt, it would be for ministers to look at them as statesmen, and to act accordingly, with a determination to uphold the greatness of the empire. The internal service of the country would alone require between 13 and 14,000 infantry to serve in the garrisons, dockyards, and other places where the presence of a military force was necessary. Great part of the revenue even depended upon their being employed, and if by mistaken economy, their services were dispensed with, the legislature would be obliged to impose more taxes, and heavier burthens than would be necessary, if those in being were properly enforced by a powerful administration. Though the total force to be kept up for the present might be fixed at 98 or 99,000, there would not be this effective force maintained, nor any thing near it. One tenth at least must always be deducted from it for non-effectives; and therefore a smaller force would not be equal to all the duties to be performed. When this branch of the question came to be more particularly gone into, he would submit to the House what he thought would prove satisfactory reasons for the proposed arrangements. In the estimate he thought there was nothing too high; but if any thing could be lowered in them, nobody would be more relieved than ministers, at ending this practicable. When the increased expense of the army was mentioned, it should be remembered, it did not so much arise from the increased number of men, as from the augmented pay and pensions which the soldiers and officers now received. An army was not the same expense now as it was in 1792, or even in 1802, the pay having been doubled since the former period, and the price of every thing connected with a military force greatly advanced since the latter. Gentlemen opposite had deprecated the continuance of any of the war taxes. These amounted to twenty-four millions. How was it possible to take them off at the present moment? He was anxious that the House should be convinced that government had no other interest in view than that of the country. They must feel that to drag on unnecessary and unwieldy establishments, year after year, could not ultimately answer their purpose. If ministers wished to keep their places, as it was generally supposed they did, they would rather be disposed to err on the side of economy, than to fall into the opposite error. They were, however, resolutely fixed not to mislead the public, by delusive plans of retrenchment, but persevering in those principles which they had hitherto professed, it would be the object of their ambition to establish the prosperity of the country, on its greatness, on its strength.

reprobated the arguments of the noble lord, that because the other nations of Europe kept up large military establishments, it was necessary that England should do the same. The noble lord who had of late resided so much on the continent, and had imbibed so many continental customs, seemed almost to have forgotten that England was an island. The noble lord in his predilection for continental systems of government, seemed to wish that Great Britain should follow the example of the great military powers of Europe; that a large standing army should be maintained; to supersede the ancient and acknowledged authorities. If the noble lord succeeded in persuading the House so far to imitate foreign nations, he would soon, without much difficulty, be able to perfect the resemblance by extinguishing the few remaining sparks of constitutional liberty in the country.

The several resolutions were then put from the chair and agreed to. Sir G. Warrender rose for the purpose of moving the resolutions respecting the navy, but the cries of adjournment were general, and it was formally moved by lord Ossulston. After some conversation between Mr. Ponsonby, sir G. Warrender, and lord Castlereagh, the latter consented to the postponement of the resolutions until Wednesday.