wished to call the attention of the chancellor of the exchequer, to the unclaimed dividends remaining in the hands of the bank, which formed a fund which was available by the public in any emergency. In the year 1808 this fund amounted to between 8 and 900,000l., out of which Mr. Perceval applied 500,000l. to the public service. Since that period this fund had again gone on increasing, and even in 1814, had amounted to between 7 and 800,000l. In the present circumstances, half a million might, without difficulty, be supplied by that fund, which would occasion a saving to the public of 30,000l. per annum.

agreed with the hon. gentleman as to the right which the public had to make use of this money, as against the bank; but thought the sum which could with propriety be taken from that source, was not considerable.

The House having resolved itself into a committee,

said, that in giving the committee a general idea of the arrangements which had been agreed on between the government and the bank, he should include in his description, transactions which would give rise to three distinct parliamentary proceedings. The proposals which he had to make to parliament were for the re-payment of the sum of one million and a half, forming part of a sum of three millions which had been advanced by the bank, and of which 1,500,000l. had been repaid during the peace of Amiens: the remaining 1,500,000l. which it was now proposed to repay, had been continued ever since from year to year: the second was, to continue an advance of three millions, made by the bank to government in the year 1808 during the war, without interest; the third was, to sanction a further advance of six millions, respecting which he should move a vote in the committee of ways and means. He should save the time of the House by opening at once the several resolutions which had arisen out of these different arrangements. The last debate which had taken place respecting these transactions with the bank, had saved much discussion: the House had resolved, that there was no such primâ facie ground for disapprobation, as to call for a specific inquiry. The ground on which the House declined this inquiry was, that in 1807 a minute investigation had taken place before a committee of the House as to all the transactions of the public with the bank; and in 1808 an arrangement was made which was equitable and satisfactory to both parties. He had also contended, and the House appeared to be of opinion, that in future the profits of the bank were likely to lessen, both because the deposits had not increased, and in some instances had become less, and the profits on the same capital on the return of peace were smaller. He should now take an opportunity of explaining the communications which had taken place between he treasury and the bank, because a doubt had been expressed whether the conduct of the treasury, in this instance, had not been disrespectful to the House of Commons. It was after a mature consideration of his official duty, that, before be had recourse to the House of Commons, he had thought fit to consult the bank, in order to agree on a plan equitable to both parties, which might be submitted to the House with mutual consent. It was obvious to every gentleman, that for forming such an arrangement the bank and treasury had access to materials which were not publicly known, and which could not be made use of in a discussion in that House, which enabled them to form a plan more satisfactory than any other parties suggest. The arrangements made with the bank in 1808, consisted, first, of a reduction of the charge for managing the dividends; second, of an increase of the allowance to the public on unclaimed dividends—third an advance to the public of three millions, without interest, during the war. The two first branches of this arrangement still continued, and it was further agreed, that the bank should continue its loan of three millions, without interest as before. If, therefore, he had nothing further to submit to the House, this might be considered as a fair arrangement. But in addition to this, a considerable further advantage would accrue to the public, for the bank had consented to advance a further runt of six millions, at a rate of interest which would cause a saving to the public of 60,000l. a year—so that the whole hole saving to the public from this arrangement would be 210,000l. a year being an addition of 60,000l. to the former saving 150,000l. by the advance of 3,000,000l. without interest. The House would likewise recollect, that besides the saving of 210,000l. a year in interest, supposing the sum now borrowed of the bank to be repaid by the public at some future time by means of a loan, the saving in the amount of funded capital thus created would be very considerable. Some persons were very sanguine in their ex- pectations on this head, but it was dangerous to hazard an opinion on an event so contingent and conjectural, So the persons thought that the 3 per cents. would not be at less than 80 per cent. if the operation of the sinking fund were suffered to proceed unclogged by a loan for two years. He should not take them at so high a rate as 80 per cent. but if instead of 80 it were supposed that they would be at 75 per cent. the difference which it would make between funding a debt of six millions now and at that period, would be two millions of consols. It was not merely on these grounds that he should ask the approbation of the committee. The arrangements were founded on a consideration of the financial policy of the country. The capital of the country had been drained during the last three years, and it was necessary for government to do all in its power to preserve the capital which remained from further loans. The operation of the sinking fund in two years would add 25 millions to the capital employed in agriculture and commerce. This would afford the fairest chance to the country of recovering from its depression. Of all institutions a sinking fund was that which most contributed, when unfettered by loans, to the accumulation of capital. The taxes by which it was supported, drove the people to economy and retrenchment in order to be able to pay them. The sums thus collected were immediately formed into masses of capital, which, by the ordinary process, would accumulate in a much slower manner—a sinking fund indeed might in the end accumulate capital to such an extent as to become a public nuisance.—On these grounds, if an advance of four millions and a half, which was the sum which would remain to the country after a re-payment of the loan of 1305, could be advanced by the bank, it would be a very effectual service to the public in the present state of affairs had been doubted whether the bank could afford to make such an advance. To throw light on this question, he should advert to the diminution of the unfunded debt which had taken place since the last year, to the extent of 21 millions, of which sixteen and a half millions consisted in the discharge of exchequer bills—the rest in the payment of navy debt, &c. In addition to this, 21 millions had been expended last year in the payment of arrears, so that the whole expended in the expenses of former years was 41 or 42 millions. The total grants last year were 83 or 84 millions, so that one half was expended in the service of the year, one half in winding up the accounts of former years, and in paying off unfunded debt. This statement must be very consolatory to the public, and he had expected it would have been received with great exultation (so unlike was it to any thing he had found in the history of the finances), if some gentleman had not said they had expected a liquidation of even a larger portion of the unfunded debt. In the present year the public expenditure was 28 or 29 millions, which in the next year would be still further reduced by 8 or 9 millions, as had been candidly admitted by the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Tierney). If any one would compare this with the winding up of the expenses of any other war he would find that similar exertions had never been made before. His only object in alluding to this subject now was, to show that the bank, who were great holders of exchequer bills, might now, when so many were discharged, easily make advances to the extent that was proposed.—He should now mention a fact, to prove, that there was a general opinion that an advance in the value of government securities would take place. The exchequer bills which had now been issued, instead of bearing 3½d. interest as before, bore only 3¼d. which, though it seemed trifling, would be a saving to the country of between one and 200,000l. A further alteration was intended in the form of these exchequer bills, for the accommodation of the public. It had been suggested, that it would be more convenient that these bills should be made payable to order, and should be transferable by indorsement, and not merely by delivery from hand to hand. A plan had been adopted to unite the advantages of the two systems. The exchequer bills were made payable to order to a nominee in blank. Thus the blank might be left, and the bill would be transferable from hand to hand, or by filling up the blank it would no longer be transferable, except by indorsement.—The right hon. gentleman then concluded, by moving for leave to bring in a bill to continue and amend the said acts.

expressed his approbation of the general mode of proceeding adopted. Nothing, he said, could be more judicious than to look to the bank for that relief which they could so well afford to give. His own motion respecting the rate of interest the country ought to pay must come on in the course of the bill. The chancellor of the exchequer seemed to think, in treating for government with the bank, that it was his duty to take care of the interests of both parties. But he thought he should rather take care of the public against the directors, who had really driven a very hard bargain, The bank was under a very wise and shrewd government of its own. He wished all the materials to be laid before the House. In the correspondence, there were some lights that might be thrown upon the business, and it might be proper to refer it to a select committee, without which it would be difficult for the House to act with correctness. The bank, he contended, ought not to have 4 per cent. for the six millions, and he should move for only 3 per cent. which would afford an additional 60,000l. a-year. This could not hurt the bank, though it might still be too much for the public to pay. He said that the unclaimed dividends in the hands of the bank were public money, and ought to be made available to the public service.

expressed his unwillingness to trespass on the time of the House, but conceived that some observations of the chancellor of the exchequer demanded particular comment, The right hon. gentleman had expressed doubts whether the bank could, with convenience or propriety, advance so considerable a sum towards the public service; but never, said the right hon. baronet, did any doubt obtrude itself on my mind, when considering the arrangements between the public and the banks of England or Ireland, but that they had never advanced enough. It is really unaccountable that the treasury does not apply to the use of the public the balances of unclaimed dividends remaining in the hands of the bank; the money is public, and should, as such, be made available to the public service. But what is the nature of the money that the bank proposes to advance, and how is the bank enabled to effect it? Is it not derived from the act of parliament suspending cash payments? and is it not just that during the existence of such a measure the loans of the bank to the public should be free from interest? The time is now arrived when the minister should not suffer any resource to be diverted that can be made available to the public interest. It is useless for the minister to come to this House, and enter into pompous flattering statements of the prosperity of these countries; it is idle to draw a picture of happiness which our experience proves to be unreal. To this country might well be addressed the adage, which in other times, but under nearly similar circumstances, had been applied to another, "It was a pity that a country should look so well in the face, that is so sick at the heart." In like maner is this country portrayed in fair and lively colors; whilst the heart is depressed with sickness. It is useless to lay papers on that table, respecting the increase of our foreign trade, while internal commerce languishes. It is idle to talk of prosperity, while we feel adversity; and to think by overwhelming majorities, in this House, of drowning the sense of misery, which prevails throughout the country. Such a state of things cannot last much longer; nor can the nation endure the continuance of such large and oppressive establishments, as have been proposed. The people have, with unexampled fortitude, endured the oppression of a tedious and expensive conflict, and have a right to demand repose on the return of peace. No statements of the minister can reconcile them to such measures. And I, for one, here protest against being prevented by such statements from expressing my sentiments on these subjects. I have not had an opportunity of expressing my opinions at an earlier period of the session, on the general state of the country. I now speak from ocular demonstration of the general adversity, and were I not to declare myself thus publicly, I should not be doing my duty to the community that sent me here. The embarrassments are felt to be severe in this country; but they are mild in comparison to what are suffered by the people of Ireland. That unhappy country, borne down by the weight of taxation, directs her anxious hopes to parliament for some relief. I trust that her expectations will not be deceived, and that her sufferings and her services will merit the attention of the House.

in reply to an observation made by the chancellor of the exchequer, denied that the proceedings of the House on a former night, in respect to the transactions of the bank, were such as precluded it from entering again upon the examination of that subject. With regard to the advance which was to be made by the bank, he entirely agreed with the right hon. gentleman, that it was better to have recourse to the bank for that assistance, than to raise the sum by a loan. He agreed also, that the effect of that, arrangement, would be a saving to the public, though not to the extent of 210,000l. The only saving would be to the extent of one per cent. or in other words, 60,000l. per annum, as he considered the loan of three millions as only a part of existing arrangements, connected with the system established in 1808. The bargain he did not think was very advantageous to the public, for he maintained, that the bank of England possessed at this moment a fund, belonging to the public, from which they derived annually a sum equal to 570,000l. and if from that sum they deducted the 210,000l. there would still remain 360,000l. per annum to the bank of clear profit for the performance of a trifling and insignificant duty. The right hon. gentleman had talked of the arrangement which was made with the bank in 1808, as one so perfect, so admirable, that no possible improvement could be made upon it: but he would beg leave to state, in reply to that opinion, that some of the most enlightened men, both in and out of parliament, decidedly thought at the time, that the agreement was infinitely short of what the public had a right to expect. The right hon. gentleman also stated, that there had been no increase in the amount of the balances since 1608; but it was not necessary to prove any increase in order to show that the public had a right to a participation in the profits of those balances. They now amounted to between eleven and twelve millions. There might perhaps be a reduction hereafter; but he knew that in a committee of bank proprietors which was held last Thursday week, and at which he was present, he asked the governor of the bank whether, in making the arrangement with government, there was any contemplation of a decrease or increase in the amount of public balances;, and the reply of the governor was, that he had no reason to believe the balances would increase, but that in fact the subject had never entered into their contemplation at all. Mr. Grenfell hoped, before the session was over, that some measures would be adopted with respect to the six or seven hundred thousand pounds of unclaimed dividends in the hands of the bank, and for saving the public from a loss of thirty or forty thousand pounds per annum a sum in the present state of the country certainly not to be neglected. He should, in fact, feel it his duty to submit a proposition upon the subject, if no measures were adopted by the chancellor of the exchequer. With respect to the amount of interest to be paid, he, for one, was not satisfied that even three per cent. ought to be given, because he was of opinion that the six millions ought to be advanced without any charge of interest at all.

observed, that the agreement between the bank and the country was only for two years; it was not a permanent one, and might, at the end of that time, be altered in any way that should seem expedient. With respect to the charge of four per cent. for the advance by the bank, if the House attempted to reduce it to three per cent. it should be remembered to what a situation they might expose the executive government; the whole negotiation would have to be commenced again, and he doubted extremely whether any proposal for reducing the interest would be acceded to by the bank. He certainly conceived that a loan of three millions without interest, and of six millions at 4 per cent. interest, was an ample remuneration to the public for any benefit which the bank derived from its transactions.

begged that the committee would contrast the speech of the hon. director of the bank who had just sat down, and that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. gentleman told them that the transaction was quite open for the decision of parliament, and then up started a bank director, and said the bargain was concluded, that it could not be renewed, and that if any obstructions were thrown in the way of its completion, it would expose the executive government to great embarrassments, and the country to great difficulty and danger. He hoped, to use a recent expression, that the chancellor of the exchequer would "take a lesson" as to his future transactions with the bank. He knew the right hon. gentleman was always fair and candid; but when he had dealings with that great public body, let him remember that their object was to get from him every farthing they could obtain, and to give him as little as they could possibly help.

replied, that nothing in the conduct of the bank betrayed a want of that candour and fairness which might be expected from it towards the public, nor did he think that the opinions expressed by the hon. director could be construed into a design on the part of the bank, to recede from its engagements. He had stated to the House, in the observations with which he had introduced the present measure, that he had thought it his duty, to facilitate the course of public business, to enter into such negociations, with that corporation as would enable him to lay some scheme before parliament for its sanction. On both sides it was distinctly understood, that the arrangements were only to be carried into effect in so far as they should be satisfactory to the legislature.

gave it as his opinion, that the conditional arrangements entered into between government and the bank, would not be so advantageous to the public as the chancellor of the exchequer had endeavoured to prove. He did not think that the exchequer bills would circulate with the reduction of the interest from 3½d. to 3¼d.

replied across the table, that an experiment would be made at first, probably on a small scale; afterwards the remainder might be issued. He had no doubt of success.

observed, that appearances did not seem favorable to the anticipations of the right hon. gentleman; he could not issue exchequer bills, with any probability of their entering into circulation, without the assistance of the bank. Any project of this kind, might succeed for three weeks or a month, merely upon a recommendation from the chancellor of the exchequer, or a flattering assurance of the flourishing success that would attend its operation; but public credit would soon find its own level, without any regard to the assurances of government. The right hon. gentleman, from his official situation, got credit for a long foresight, and when he gravely said in his place that the funds would improve, his prediction might have a temporary effect in realizing itself. His word, however, was not always sufficient to satisfy doubts, and influence permanently the views of men in their monied transactions. Mr. Tierney accused the right hon. gentleman of being too sanguine in his expectations of improvement in our resources, and the right hon. gentleman replied by imputing to him too much gloom and despondency. The question war fairly at issue between them; and he would have no objection that his cause should be decided in any county of Eng- land, provided he had twelve farmers for his jury. He might even say that twelve individuals from any class of society, as well as from the agricultural body would give aver-diet in his favour. If the experience of the past could be taken as an indication of the future, the right hon. gentleman could not anticipate much success from the issue of exchequer bills, ash, believed that for the last six months he found it impossible to give them currency.

replied, that he could draw no inference of the kind, as there had been no exchequer bills thrown into circulation within the period in question. There had not been five shillings of this species of paper in the money market for some months past.

answered, that the weight of this circumstance depended upon a knowledge whether the attempt to circulate them had been made.

observed that he was not surprised that the bank should grant to the public the use of its own money for 4 per cent. That establishment, in transacting the business of the nation, held deposits of the public money to the amount of 12 millions, and congratulated the country on its generosity in lending back 6 millions of it, not for nothing, but for nearly common interest. This put him in mind of the negotiations between a Yorkshire lord and his steward, in which the latter agreed to advance his master 3,000l. of his own money in his hands by way of loan, and exacted interest for it as if his master had no right to receive it upon any other terms. Much had been spoken and written of late concerning the reluctance of country bankers to discount bills in the present situation of the country; but he believed there was not one of them to be found who would not advance six millions, if twelve millions were deposited (a laugh). The proposal of an hon. member to allow 3 per cent., he hoped would not be acceded to. Such rate of interest was too high when nothing was due. The profits of the bank were enormous. The business they performed for the public might be managed by a board, by a committee, or in some other way, for a small proportion of the expense which was now incurred.

observed, that upon his nominal loan of six millions from the bank, which seemed to be so much thought of, the nation actually paid an interest of 9 per cent. so long as public balances to a corresponding amount, remained in depo- sit there. In the first place, five per cent. at least to the public creditor upon raising, the money thus lodged in the bank, and then four per cent. more to the proprietors on receiving it back in the shape of a loan.

The motion was then agreed to. Previous to the Chairman quitting the chair,

said, he was led to inquire of the right hon. gentleman opposite, whether the salaries paid to the commissioners of excise and customs in Scotland, had not lately been augmented, and whether that augmentation had not taken place since the opening of the present session of parliament?

said, it was perfectly true, that in consequence of a representation which had been made long ago for an increase of salary, that subject had been under the consideration of government. At the time, however, it was not thought necessary to grant any augmentation, but since that period, in consequence of other arrangements, by which a great additional duty had been imposed on those boards, an increase of reward had been granted.

immediately rose, and in an indignant tone, expressed his astonishment at the mode which the ministers of the Crown had adopted of carrying into effect their promised system of strict economy and gradual reduction. They had pledged themselves to the country, at the commencement of the session, that every practicable measure for reducing our enormous establishments—that every method of retrenchment—that every plan for relieving the people from their overwhelming burdens—would be resorted to with promptitude and resolution: but now, instead of occupying themselves with endeavours to fulfil their promises; instead of looking into all quarters to discover where a saving might be made; instead of inquiring what useless officers might be discharged, and what unnecessary places abolished, they were engaged in imposing upon the nation additional burthens, and increasing salaries already too highly paid, His majesty's ministers, it would appear, were to be divided into two parties, one to be employed in retrenchment and economy, and the other in imposing taxes and augmenting emoluments. The right hon. gentleman gave as a reason for this advance of salary, that the duties of the officers in question were increased. In reply to this he would ask, was there no di- minution of expenditure? Were not all the articles of living very much reduced in price? And would not a Scotch officer enjoy the advantage resulting from such a diminution as much as others? When the produce of agricultural labor was so low, when a promise was held out that our taxes would be diminished, when the half of that oppressive impost, the property tax, was to be taken off; even upon the proposal of the right hon. gentleman himself; and the remaining half; he trusted would be abolished in opposition to his wishes, was this a time for augmenting salaries, upon the pretence of trifling additional duty? He was surprised at this prodigal disregard of economy amid public distress—at this unnecessary addition to our expenditure; and he hoped the hon. baronet who had put the question which called forth this alarming piece of intelligence, would follow it up with some specific motion.

could not help thinking that the hon. and learned gentleman who had just sat down had indulged himself in a very unnecessary as well as a very illiberal tirade upon the present occasion. He would call upon the committee to say whether the hon. and learned gentleman could be authorized in the attack which he had made upon his majesty's government, in consequence of what had just fallen from his right hon. friend. His right hon. friend had been asked a question by an hon. baronet, to which he had answered by stating facts, but without entering into those explanations which time and circumstances would not permit, but which would fully justify those facts. This was the opportunity which the hon. and learned gentleman had thought fit to take of getting up to comment upon a topic which had no connexion whatever with the question before the House, with the view of exciting the public feelings against the motives which might have influenced his right hon. friend in the augmentation alluded to. Such conduct he was sure, neither the House nor the country would deem either fair or candid. With respect to the question itself, it behaved the House to abstain from expressing any opinion, either for or against, until the opportunity arrived, when explanation might properly be given.

wished to state the reason why he had made the observations which seemed to be felt so acutely. The hon. gentleman ought to know, that in every question of supply, it was open to the House to remark upon every matter of grievance of which the country had to complain.

said, the House was not in a committee of supply.

requested the chairman to put the question then before the House, which was accordingly done that the committee should report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

reprobated the eargerness with which the right hon. gentleman endeavoured to get rid of a question relative to the expenditure of the public money. By an accidental question which it had been impossible to foresee, it had come to light, that the salaries of several public officers had been increased instead of being diminished. The right hon. gentleman talked of their having more to do. That might be; but then they had less to pay. Their salaries had been increased on former occasions on the ground of the increased price of every article of consumption, and therefore when that price fell, it was but just that the increase of salary should be taken off. He was one of those who always maintained that those who executed public duties, ought to be fairly and liberally remunerated; but this was a time in which parliament ought carefully to guard against any unnecessary expenditure. The hon. gentleman opposite who had started up in defense of his right hon. friend, belonged to the office of the third secretary of state. That office had been created in consequence of the augmentation of public business during the war. He should be glad to know, when it was likely that a report would be made to the House of the state of that office, and of the period when those who were connected with it, would be enabled to surrender their functions?

observed, that the conversation which had taken place, was by no means calculated to encourage his right hon. friend and himself to answer questions put to them in parliament. If hon. gentlemen chose to assume as a right that which was only an indulgence, and then proceeded to draw false inferences from the answers they received, his right hon. friend and himself would feel bound to adhere to the strict parliamentary rule on this subject. Nothing could be more unfair, than from a mere reply to a question to infer, that government were employed not in reducing, but in increasing the public expenditure. This system of endeavoring to make a sudden impression, would not be found very effectual by the hon. and learned gentleman. It was a system pretty well understood both in and out of the House. These five minutes triumphs would produce no effect. He knew that the hon. gentlemen opposite meant to make the present a very active session of parliament on the subject of economy. He applauded them for this intention, for there was no other topic on which they could have any sanguine expectations of distinguishing themselves. But he did recommend to the hon. and learned gentleman to abstain from such tricks as that of this evening. He put it to the hon. and learned gentleman's own taste and judgment, whether he had not eminently failed in all his endeavours to exhibit his dexterity at the expense of his understanding. He hoped therefore that he would in future pursue that direct policy which was so much better suited to his talents and attainments.

contended, that the country was totally exhausted, that the taxes were beyond the abilities of the people to pay them, and that the longer ministers I proceeded in their present course the worse it would he.

The House then resumed, and leave was given to bring in a bill according to the resolution.

said, he had one question more to put to the right hon. gentleman. Had he been well informed, when he was told that the salaries of the law officers of the Crown in Scotland had likewise been increased since the opening of the present session of parliament?

replied, that the unnecessary and irregular conversation which had followed the answer which he had given to the last question of the hon. baronet, induced him to say that it was not convenient to him to answer the question now proposed.

said, it was important that the House should come to some understanding upon this subject. He was ready to admit, that there were certain questions, regarding foreign policy and our military arrangements, which it would be impolitic to answer. Here, however, was a simple fact, the answer to which, whether in the negative or affirmative, could produce no ill consequences. The Question simply was, "Were the salaries of the Crown law officers in Scotland raised or not?" He would be glad to know what was the objection to this question? Were they to be driven to the necessity of making motions when such information was required? or, were ministers to follow that rule which had, for the convenience of parliament, been so judiciously observed, that of answering all questions which might tend to shorten and simplify public business? If it was determined to force the House to the former course, he would make a motion day by day, and hour by hour, without notice whenever he saw occasion, and he was sure he should be supported by every honest man in the House.

said, that if the right hon. gentleman would introduce a little better discipline into his own camp, he would find no objection on the ministerial side of the House, candidly to reply to all proper questions that might be put to them; for it was a practice which he readily admitted, had a great tendency to facilitate public business. If the hon. and learned gentleman opposite had allowed the question and answer of the hon. baronet and his right hon. friend to pass without observation, all would have been amicable and parliamentary, and he might, if he had chosen it, have taken the regular means of raising a discussion on the subject. But when, in a tone of importance, he thought proper to assume (without any foundation in evidence) that his majesty's government were employed not in diminishing but in increasing the public expenditure, he departed from that which was the usage of the House. No doubt the hon. gentlemen opposite were perfectly ready on every occasion to conclude against government without any investigation, but he believed they would find it difficult to persuade the public to think with them. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would rein in his steed a little, and then he would not find any difficulties thrown by his majesty's ministers in the way of information.

begged leave to remind the noble lord and the House of the actual facts as they had occurred in the committee. A question put by an hon. baronet had drawn from the right hon. gentleman opposite a candid answer, avowing that an augmentation had taken place in the salaries of those officers in Scotland, comprehended in the scope of the inquiry. But the right hon. gentleman had not confined himself to a dry answer. He had given reasons for the augmentation; he had entered into an argument, and had stated to the committee the grounds on which government had proceeded. "The augmentation took place recently," said the right hon. gentleman, "but it was in consequence of representations of an old date, and on the ground of a great increase in the duties of the officers in question." Hearing this, it was impossible for him not to endeavour to expose the fallacy of the statement. But by whom was the argument commenced? Undoubtedly by the right hon. gentleman, who, feeling that the measure which had been adopted required defence, entered on its justification. Then, when his only object was to show the weakness of the right hon. gentleman's defence, up started an hon. gentleman connected with the colonial department of government, and accused him of venting a tirade (as he called it) against the right hon. gentleman himself.

said, that in inferring that his majesty's government were employed in increasing and not in diminishing, the public expenditure, the hon. and learned gentleman had unfairly attempted to create a notion in the public mind, wholly unfounded in its nature.

The Speaker observing that there was no question before the House, the conversation dropped.

, after some prefatory observations, in which he stated the object of the measure to be principally an annual collection of the rents, and an annual inspection, in order to ascertain that the tenants were complying with the terms prescribed to them, moved "That leave be given to bring in a bill the better to regulate the Offices of Receivers of the Crown Rents."

was of opinion, that the object of this bill was to promote as rank a job as ever he had heard of, and that its direct tendency was, to enlarge the patronage of the Crown, which was the ultimate source of our misfortunes; perhaps, indeed, he would be more correct in saying, that it was a patronage of oligarchy which caused so many evils to the country. This, he said, was a species of patronage, which, to use the words of a relation (with whom, however, in consequence of his tergiversation, he did not boast of his connexion), had increased, was increasing, and ought to be diminished. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to draw a strong picture of the distressed state of the country, particularly in those districts within his own observation. He defied the chancellor of the exchequer to improve it, if instead of one million, he gave twenty to the farmers.

Leave was given to bring in the bill.

, agreeably to his notice, called the attention of the House to the propriety of repealing the act of the 10th and 11th of William 3, which takes away the benefit of clergy from persons convicted of stealing privately in a shop to the amount of five shillings. This act, he said, was the most severe and sanguinary on our statute-book, inconsistent with the spirit of the times in which we lived, and repugnant to the law of nature, which had no severer punishment to inflict on the most atrocious of crimes. It was no reason for not repealing, but, on the contrary, the strongest for repealing this act, that it was never executed. There could not be a more pernicious system than that of severe laws and a relaxed execution of them. At the time the act was passed, the crime was extremely prevalent, but the change in the law had not caused it to disappear. Yet it had been at different periods strictly enforced; and in the year 1785, no less than 97 persons were executed for this offence in London alone, and the dreadful spectacle exhibited of twenty suffering at the seine time. It was a vast discretion to vest in any men, and although it might be safely confided to twelve judges, selected from the profession for their learning, wisdom, and character, it was sometimes intrusted to others of inferior talents, and whose conduct was less under the constant observation of the public. The hon. and learned gentleman then proceeded to state the number of persons who had been tried for capital offences of this nature during the last five years. Taking the whole together, 161 had been indicted, and only 41 convicted. This fact was only to be accounted for from juries being placed under circumstances which obliged them to depart from the dictates of their own consciences. They found the property not to be of the value which they averred it to be; and cases had occurred, in which two persons were indicted for stealing the same property, and only one of them was convicted, because he was an old offender. In a recent case, a person had been in- dicted for stealing a 10l. bank note out of a dwelling-house; but the jury found it to be not of the value of 40s. Now, though bank notes might have been considerably diminished in value, he thought it would be difficult to prove that they had fallen in this proportion. And yet this sort of pia fraus, as it was called, had not only been long in practice, but was even recommended by the bench. Mr. Justice Blackstone had positively declared, that it was a thing proper to be done. He did not speak of that doctrine being held by the learned commentator when he was a mere student at the university, but that it was contained in the last edition of his work, which he himself revised after he was made a judge. But what benefit could the public receive from example, where punishment was never inflicted? He considered it a most serious and alarming fact, that there had been a great increase of offences in London and Westminster between 1806 and 1815. He could hardly read a newspaper without seeing paragraphs descriptive of youthful depravity, of crimes committed by poor, wretched infants, who had been abandoned by their profligate parents. He had lately read, that the recorder had declared it to be the determination of the Prince Regent to execute the next boy who was convicted, in order to give a check to youthful offences. He supposed, however, that this was merely an empty threat, because he could not think such determination could be made, while experienced men received the mercy of the throne. He had no hesitation in saying, that this great increase of crimes was to be attributed to the inferior officers of the police, whose interests were directly at variance with their duty. He had seen it in evidence before the House, that such things actually existed: it was their object, not that petty offenders should be suppressed, but that they should be permitted to go on from crime to crime, till the officers received a large reward for merely doing their duty. He sincerely hoped, however, that the session would not be allowed to pass, without an inquiry into the state of the police. An hon. friend of his (Mr. Bennet) had lately rendered the most important services to the public, by detecting and exposing the scandalous abuses which existed in the prisons of the metropolis; and he trusted, that the same gentleman would immediately turn his mind to this other important subject. Having troubled the House with these remarks, he should move, "That leave be given to bring in a bill to repeal so much of the act of the 10th and 11th Will. 3, as takes away the benefit of clergy from persons convicted of the offence of stealing privately in shops, money, or goods of the value of five shillings."

Leave was given to bring in the bill.