thought it his duty to state his reasons for dissenting from the prayer of the petition presented by his hon. colleague. He should vote for the property tax, because he was convinced that, in the distressed state of the country, neither the present, nor any set of ministers, would impose such a burthen, if it were not absolutely necessary. He deprecated the mode which had been suggested by an hon. alderman of raising the money wanted by loan. But should it be proposed to continue the property tax for more than a year or two, however modified, it should then meet with his decided opposition. In all local matters he should most implicitly obey the directions of his constituents, but, in political questions, he should retain the right of expressing his own opinions.

said, that considering the anxiety which must necessarily be felt throughout the country as to the nature of the relief which it might be in contemplation to propose for the agriculturalists, and especially in reference to the notice already given by an hon. member, whose knowledge and experience on that subject were much looked up to, he hoped he should not be regarded as taking an unparliamentary course in requesting from that hon. gentleman some general outline of the proposition which he intended to submit to the House.

replied, that he should be most happy to comply with the request of the hon. member, if he thought that by so doing he should be acting consistently with the very nature of the motion of which he had given notice. That motion was for a committee of the whole House to take into consideration the distressed state of the agriculture of the country, and to devise some means for relieving it from the perilous and unexampled difficulties under which it now labored. If, therefore, he were to anticipate the object of that motion by any premature statement, he should defeat it altogether, as his sole view was to elicit the collective wisdom and information of the House. For himself, he certainly had some plans which he intended to propose, as likely to be productive of the desired relief, but he could not think it expedient to state them at the present moment.

presented a petition from certain land-holders, land-owners, &c. of the town of Steyning, in Sussex, complaining of the agricultural distresses. The hon. baronet was about to read the petition, when

reminded him, that it was the duty of a member to state the substance merely, and that of the clerk at the table to read it at length. It would be an entire departure from parliamentary practice, for any hon. member to read the whole of a petition, though he was certainly at liberty to read particular parts. With that explanation the hon. member would not be at a loss as to what he was to do.

proceeded to state the substance of the petition, observing, that among many other topics of grievances the petitioners particularly alluded to the impossibility of paying the poor-rates, the tenants property tax, and the tythes, out of the produce of their farms. They also referred to the great relief which they would experience from the repeal of the war malt duty.

The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

presented a petition from certain gentlemen, proprietors and cultivators of land, residing in the vicinity of Exeter, complaining of the distress which they felt. He stated, that there was one circumstance connected with the petition, which was peculiarly worthy of the attention of the House. It was signed by about 500 of the principal yeomanry of the county, that highly respectable and most important class of the community. Though they were not numerous, they might fairly be considered as speaking the sense of that part of the country. The hon. baronet stated the substance of the petition, which referred to the extreme distress felt by the agricultural interest, which was so great indeed, that they were compelled to draw upon their capitals in order to support themselves; and that they would resort to other means than the cultivation of the ground for that support, if there were any profitable mode of employing their money. They concluded their petition, not by calling for any specific relief, but by throwing themselves on the feelings and sympathy of the House, and relying upon their judgment for the best means of affording it.—Upon the petition being read by the clerk,

expressed his surprise, that the hon. baronet, in stating the substance of the petition, had omitted to mention the property tax, as one of the principal causes of the distress complained of. He was led to conclude that the petition was merely a general and vague application to the legislature for relief, without pointing out any means by which the relief could be obtained. It appeared; however, from the reading of the petition, that the omission was in the hon. baronet himself, and not in the petition. The petitioners themselves were aware of the source of their sufferings, though the hon. baronet did not think fit to touch upon it: In point of fact, therefore, the petition was as much a petition against the property tax, as it was for relief generally.

said, he wondered the hon. and learned gentleman did not express another part of his surprise, that any one could be so devoid of common sense as to come down to that House with a petition, of which he wished a part to be concealed, and yet desire it to be read at length by the clerk, in order to expose his own inadequacy. If the hon. and learned gentleman had only done him the honour to attend to the general way in which he opened the matter of the petition, he would have had no occasion to make the remarks which he had so precipitately offered to the House; and if he would only allow him to go through the other petition which he held in his hand, he would see from his conduct, whether he had any design to suppress or omit any thing materially connected with their object.

disclaimed any idea of imputing to the hon. baronet the motives which he seemed to imagine was his intention. He only meant to express his surprise at finding the contents of the petition differ so materially in a substantive part of it, from what might have been expected from the manner in which it had been opened by the hon baronet.

observed, that his hon. friend had only stated generally the grievances of which the petitioners complained, and the hon. and learned gentleman had no right to say that the petition was against the property tax, more than any of the other grievances.

thought, from the manner in which the hon. and learned member had described the nature of the petition, that he would find the property tax put forward in it as a great and leading grievance. But he saw that it was only mentioned in company with servants' wages and manure.

observed, that even in that case, as the property tax was the subject which occupied the consideration of parliament, and not servants' wages and manure, the petition must be considered as against the property tax.

considered that the statement of the hon. gentleman would have made it appear, as if he wished to sink the merits of the question. That was far from his intention. Had that hon. member considered the petition, he would have found that it stated all the burthens which pressed upon agriculture, and the property tax only, as one amongst the rest.

thought that the man who did not tell the truth at the present moment, was a traitor to his country. In twelve months time the country would want the necessaries of life. Did not the House know that one part of the metropolis was starving? Some were supported by charity, and others running towards prison and ruin. A vast trade was carried on in smuggling corn from other countries. He did not mean to oppose the petition, but he thought it his duty to speak his opinion, when the country was rushing into ruin by the immensity of taxation on the one hand, and the weakness of ministers on the other.

presented a petition to the same purport, and in the same words as the first, from the gentlemen proprietors, cultivators, and occupiers of land, near Honiton, in the county of Devon, which was read and ordered to lie on the table.

then stated, that he held several petitions of a nearly similar nature, from various parts of Devonshire. One of them recited the distresses of agriculture, and called upon the House for relief from the great burthen of taxation principally owing to the property-tax. Another stated, that as the land-owner paid 10 per cent., and the land-occupier seven, the whole amount of the tax was in fact 17 per cent. He concluded by presenting those petitions, which were read, and ordered to lie on the table.

observed, that as he saw a right hon. gentleman in his place, who was chairman of the committee for superintending the erection of national monuments, he wished to know whether only 3000 guineas was to be the sum allotted to the erection of a monument to the memory of sir Thomas Picton. He certainly thought that sum too small, and the more so, as he had been in St. Paul's that day, and observed several monuments erected to the memory of post captains in the navy, some of which had cost four and even six thousand pounds.

replied, that no person could be more sensible of the eminent services of Sir Thomas Picton than he was; but as to the sum allotted for his monument, that did not fall within his department, it being altogether at the discretion of the Lords of the Treasury. He could state, however, that the sum certainly was to be 3000 guineas. He was not aware that any of the monuments in St. Paul's, erected to the memory of post captains in the navy, had cost a larger sum, though it might possibly be the fact. But it should be remembered, that during the war, the difficulty of procuring the marble usually employed for monuments was so great, and the expense so much larger, that what then cost as much as six guineas per foot, was now reduced to somewhat about two guineas. A less sum therefore, would be necessary for a monument of equal magnitude.

said, that the answer of the right hon. gentleman was not satisfactory to him; and he was proceeding to make some further remarks, when the Speaker reminded him, that as he had not announced his intention of concluding with a motion, there was then no question before the House. Mr. Jones apologized for the irregularity, of which he was not aware, being only a young member of that House, and stated that he should feel it his duty, on some future occasion, to bring forward a motion upon the subject, unless he was anticipated by the right hon. gentleman, or some other member.

rose, in pursuance of his notice, to call the attention of the House to the collection of marbles in possession of the Earl of Elgin. Towards the close of the last session of parliament, the noble earl had presented a petition to the House, praying that an inquiry might be made into the value of his collection, which he was desirous of selling to government for the use of the public.^* The circumstances under which the noble lord had become possessed of those matchless productions were so well known, that the right hon. gentleman said, be would not trouble the House at any length on the subject. They were acquired by him, in the course of his mission to Constantinople, with the greatest exertions, and at a very considerable expense, and might be justly considered as the most valuable works of art that had ever been brought from the western parts of Europe. Every person acquainted with that noble lord must be aware, that his object had been solely directed to the advancement of the arts; but being unable, from circumstances which it was then un- necessary to repeat, to fulfil his munificent intentions, he was naturally anxious that the public should enjoy the advantage of his labors. As to the amount of the remuneration to be given to his lordship, the right hon. gentleman wished to leave it to the judgment of the house. The collection was too well known to make it necessary for him to refer to the opinions of the most eminent artists; it was, beyond all question, the most ancient and genuine that had ever appeared, and the country would be naturally proud of possessing a mass of models for the arts, which the united collections of Europe could hardly produce. The committee, however, for which he intended to move, would be enabled to call proper judges before them in order to ascertain the value. It was agreed, on both sides of the House, that, in the present situation of the country, it was in the highest degree desirable to avoid any unnecessary expenditure; but it should not be forgotten, that if the present opportunity was neglected it might never occur again. He saw no prospect but, in the course of a short time, these exquisite works of art must be dispersed, or disposed of to foreign purchasers. The House had before an opportunity of acquiring a valuable collection, and they had, for public purposes, and on public grounds, availed themselves of it. They had now the offer of a more splendid collection; and it was certainly one of the most wonderful events of the day, that the works of Phobias should become the property of a native of Caledonia. The desire of conferring honour on the arts as well as on the arms of this country was the object of his motion; for, of all the arts, sculpture was at present the least flourishing in England. He should therefore move, "That the Petition of the earl of Elgin, which was presented to the House on the 15th of February last, be referred to a select committee, and that they do inquire whether it be expedient that the collection therein-mentioned should be purchased on behalf of the public; and if so, what price it may be reasonable to allow for the same."

^* See vol. 31. p. 828.

said, he could not object to procuring the advantage of such an interesting collection to the country. A question, however, might arise, whether an ambassador, residing in the territories of a foreign power, should have the right of appropriating to himself, and deriving benefits from objects belonging to that power. It was not the respect paid to lord Elgin, but to the power and greatness of the country which he represented, that had given him the means of procuring these chefs-d'œuvres of ancient sculpture. He thought, therefore, that the House should go no farther than to remunerate the noble lord for the trouble and expense at which he had been in bringing over these marbles.

said, that the Committee would have to ascertain the mode in which the noble lord obtained these marbles, the expense to which he had been put with respect to them, and what degree of vested right the public already possessed in them. The noble lord could certainly not be considered as an independent traveller, who had a right to dispose of, at any price that he could obtain, whatever he might have collected in the course of his researches. He had availed himself of his character as an English ambassador to facilitate the acquisition. He confessed, that instead of leaving the question altogether to parliament, he should have thought it better had the noble lord fixed the price that he required. Under all the circumstances, however, although he was persuaded that the Committee would have an inconvenient and a laborious task, and although he felt very sensibly the difficulties of the times, yet the collection was one of such acknowledged value, one so unrivalled in its nature, and which it was so much to be desired that the public should possess, that he could not hesitate to entertain the proposition made by his right hon. friend.

agreed that it was a matter of public duty not to hold out a precedent to embassadors to avail themselves of their situation to obtain such property, and then to convert it to their own purposes. He was sure, however, that the noble lord would inform the committee of the extent of his facilities. As to obstacles in forming a reasonable estimate, he conceived it would not be found so difficult as the hon. gentleman seemed to think. What they would have to do was, to inquire whether these marbles were really so valuable to the public as they were represented to be, and then to ascertain what money the noble lord had expended in procuring and bringing them to this country. It would then remain for the House to decide upon the sum to be given to his lordship. Generally, he believed, there could be but one opinion upon this subject, and that there would be no opposition to the appointment of a committee.

thought it his duty in answer to the remark just made, that there could be but one opinion on the subject, to say, that in his judgment, the present distressed situation of the country did not call upon parliament to make a purchase of a set of marbles. However desirable these marbles might be for the promotion of the arts, it would be very impolitic and improper at this time to incur any unnecessary expenditure. He therefore wished the right hon. gentleman to postpone this measure till the country had been relieved from the burthens which now oppressed it.

said, that no man could feel more anxious than himself that these works of art should not be scattered over the country, or be suffered to leave it if the object of the motion was to inquire whether lord Elgin had become possessed of them in consequence of his public functions, and what expenses he had incurred, he was ready to agree to a committee; but not that particular artists should be asked what they conceived to be the value of these marbles. He thought the committee should be instructed how they ought to conduct themselves. It had been stated that lord Elgin formerly applied to Mr. Perceval on this subject, who offered a specific sum of money, which his lordship refused. He did not see, therefore, why the offer should be repeated. He thought an inquiry should be instituted as to the extent of his expenditure in procuring these marbles. Part of them were brought over in ships of war, and consequently at the public expense if it were merely intended to hold out encouragement to embassadors to enrich their country with works of arts, then the motion was creditable to the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer; but if he meant that the noble lord, availing himself of his official character, should now call himself the possessor, he would not agree to the motion. He thought it improper, in the present situation of our finances, that the House should be invited to purchase them. The right hon. gentleman had said, it was very desirable to possess them. This might be very true, there were a great many things which he would wish to have, and he was sorry he had them not; but he was bound to consider his means, and the right hon. gentleman should do the same.

spoke in favour of the appointment of a committee. It would be to be regretted, if the public lost this opportunity of obtaining a collection more useful than any other that could be found for the improvement of the arts. If the House refused to purchase this collection of lord Elgin, it would be hard on his lordship to be prevented from disposing of it otherwise.

opposed the motion, on the ground of the influence of example, and the distressed state of the country. Lord Elgin ought to have come boldly forward, and have made them a present to the country. He thought, that if ambassadors were encouraged to make these speculations, many might return home in the character of merchants. He could not consent to pay for the collection according to what might be called its value, but only as far as it was a compensation to an ambassador for his expenses in procuring it. He did not see that lord Elgin was bound by what the committee thought right.

was sorry that in the discharge of his duty he must object to the appointment of a committee. He participated, at the same time, in feeling with other hon. members that it was extremely desirable such a collection should be in the possession of this country. It was very rational that we should wish to indulge ourselves in this sort of gratification, but he was under the necessity of looking to the other side of the question. This country had not the money to spend. As a nation we found ourselves precisely in the situation of an individual who might see many things he would like to purchase, and which he might purchase too at a cheap price, but he could not indulge himself with the article, for upon asking himself the question he found that he had no money in his pocket. Perhaps this collection might cost about forty or fifty thousand pounds, but even if it would cost only ten or twelve thousand this was not the time to press expenses upon the public. This was a time when we were called upon to cut down expenses of every description. If it could be afforded, consideration was due to the present state of midshipmen, and also of half pay officers, retiring upon what was not equal to their support, but he believed the only answer which could be returned was, that in the present state of the country, we were not able to afford them any further assistance; still if we could not give them bread we ought not to indulge ourselves in the purchase of stones. On these grounds he felt it his duty to object to the present motion, and should therefore conclude by moving the previous question.

had not been able to satisfy his mind that these marbles had been acquired in that way that could authorize the nation to purchase them. He therefore should support the amendment.

said, the committee to be appointed would of course consider the question of the expenses of the noble lord carefully, and see also whether they had been properly applied or not. He saw no good ground for taking up the subject at some other time. If the business could be adjourned, with a fair and full security for our retaining possession of this most valuable collection, it would certainly be preferable; but it would be very burthensome to lord Elgin to be debarred from selling it to any body else, while parliament thought fit to refuse to purchase it.

thought the mode in which the collection had been acquired partook of the nature of spoliation. It was of the greatest importance to ascertain whether this collection had been procured by such means as were honourable to this country. We were at present looked at with much attention, and perhaps jealousy, by other nations; and many in a neighboring country might rejoice to find us tripping. He hoped the committee would be careful in seeing that the whole transaction was consonant with national honour. If these remains of antiquity were not honourably acquired, he hoped we should have nothing to do with them.

said, it was extremely desirable for the committee to inquire into the points mentioned by the honmember. He would not vote for the committee, if he did not think it essential to ascertain that what had been done was compatible with the noble lord's and with the country's honour.

The previous question was put and negatived after which the main question was agreed to, and a committee appointed.