, on presenting the petition from the corporation and inhabitants of Guildford, praying in very strong terms, that the income tax might not be renewed, said, he should certainly support the petition, and that he was desired by the member for Bridport, who was the recorder of Guildford, to express his concurrence in the prayer of the petition.

said, it was the opinion of some of his constituents in the county of Cornwall, that a modified tax upon property, bearing equally upon all classes of the community, would be an equitable tax. He had a petition to this effect. If this mode were adopted, the government might dispense with the war malt tax, which pressed hard upon the poor.

stated, that although he had on a former evening presented a petition from his constituents at Eye against this tax, he was yet of opinion that, under the present circumstances of the country, a modified property tax, for a time to be limited, was the best mode of raising the sums wanted for the state. This was his conviction, and he regretted that it was at variance with the opinions of his constituents.

hoped that no member would act under the impression, that by voting for the property tax, he had any chance of getting rid of the war malt tax. The government had not held out any such hopes.

presented a petition from Godalming, against any renewal of the income tax. He said, in consequence of the county members declaring their intention to support the tax, this petition had not been entrusted to them to present to the House.

stated, that he had authority from the mayor and burgesses of Lymington, to disclaim on their part any participation in the petition against the property tax, which had been transmitted from that town. The hon. baronet concluded by presenting a petition to that effect from the individuals in question.

said, that this paper had more the appearance of a statement than a petition.

observed, that the House was not in the habit of being very scrupulous as to the form of a petition. The petitioners in this case only prayed not to be included in the number of those who constructed a former instrument.

said, that they wished to disclaim any connexion with the petition couched in the intemperate language of the former one.

presented a petition from a number of persons in the county of Worcester, expressing their opinion in favour of an equally regulated tax on property.

said, that this petition, which virtually prayed for a continuance of the tax, did not represent the sense of the county. It was proposed for adoption at a late hour of the day, and without notice. In proof of its being signed by a very small number of his constituents, he adduced the fact that it only contained the signatures of two magistrates. The sense of the county, as would be seen by a petition which would be presented in the course of the evening, was entirely against the tax.

replied, that the petition had been carried by a show of hands in the usual manner.

rejoined, that it was of little consequence how it had been carried, when no public notice of the meeting was given.

presented a petition from the county of Kent against any renewal of the property tax, and the maintenance of large standing armies in time of peace.

The hon. baronet stated that, although some opposition had been made, the petition was carried, with the exception of six or seven persons at the utmost, with the most perfect unanimity; and lie had only to add, that he fully concurred with every part of it.

had to present a petition from certain persons at Southampton, against the property tax. This was the petition which he had on a former night alluded to. It came to him by the mail coach that morning, without any accompanying communication. He knew nothing about it or the promoters of it, and he would not by making any further observations on the subject, afford room for that sort of discussion which he was sorry to see embraced with so much eagerness by gentlemen opposite.

When the petition was opened by the clerk, a piece of loose parchment fell from it on the table.

observed, that the House could not receive the dissevered part of a document like this.

stated, that it had reached him in that state. The separate part, he believed, contained signatures which it was intended to attach to those at the end of the petition.

said, the question was, not in what manner it reached the right hon. gentleman, but whether it was within the orders of the House.

said, they ought to be indulgent towards a petition for which a reward of twenty guineas had been offered by the right hon. gentleman who presented it. They ought to be glad to have discovered the stolen petition on any terms.

said, that the petition contained, as he had before stated, about thirty or forty respectable names, together with a great many others, who were either paupers or non-residents of the town.

said, the present petition evidently showed that the people of Southampton felt in common with the rest of the country on the question of this tax. When the right hon. gentleman had last spoken, he asserted that the people of Southampton were favourable to the tax. He had spoken of the present petition as emanating from paupers, &c. It appeared of such a character, that he shrunk with horror from its presentation. He (Mr. Baring) was, however, at last glad to hear, that it had some respectable signatures; and the best proof of its containing the sentiments of the people of Southampton was, that the efforts of the right hon. gentleman opposite (if indeed he made any) had failed in procuring a counter-petition.

repeated what he had said on a former occasion relative to this petition, but he denied having uttered a syllable from which it could be inferred that the people of Southampton were favourable to the property tax. He also denied that he had directly or indirectly interfered in the matter. He had never written a line to any person to promote either this petition or a counter one. He would again assert, that the great mass of those who signed the petition were unknown at Southampton. Some of them had never paid the property tax, or, indeed, any other in their lives.

presented a petition from Berkshire against the property tax, at the same time expressing himself inimical to the intention of government respecting its renewal. The people had borne it without complaint during the war, admitting the necessity for heavy taxation to maintain the arduous struggle in which the country was engaged, but confidently looking forward to its termination to afford relief from the pressure of this tax in particular.

said, that as one of the representatives of Berkshire, he felt it his duty to bear testimony to the general feeling which prevailed in that county, as well as others, against the property tax. The noble lord (Castlereagh) who was not then in his place, might, indeed, assert, that this feeling sprung from an ignorant impatience for a relaxation of taxes—he might assert that it was created by clamour, a clamour which existed only in his imagination. The fact was, the feeling of the people sprung from an honest indignation at the evasion that had been practised upon them. He would oppose the tax in every stage, from a conviction of its injustice, and also from a firm persuasion that any tax of this kind, in, a time of profound peace, was wholly unjustifiable.

rose to put a question to an hon. and learned gentleman, whom he now saw in his place. He desired to know upon what authority that hon. and learned gentleman had ventured to insinuate, that his constituents were indisposed to commit their petitions to his charge. He valued his independence as highly as any member of the House, and was prepared to defend it against the hon. gentleman, either there or elsewhere.

said, the House had nothing to do with the hon. gentleman's intentions elsewhere. With respect to what had fallen from him on a former occasion, he had certainly observed, that it was somewhat extraordinary that the five boroughs represented by the hon. gentleman should have sent their petitions to the House through the medium of his (Mr. B.'s) presentation. This, he had considered, was only to be accounted for by some known difference of opinion on the subject of the income tax between the hon. gentleman and his constituents. Upon this supposition the conduct of the petitioners was quite natural; and he should therefore retain his opinion, until he saw reason to believe that the conjectures as to the hon. gentleman's views with regard to the property tax were unfounded.

conceived that the .hon. gentleman ought in common courtesy to have apprized him of his having received these petitions, before he presented them to the House, accompanied by observations of this nature.

, believed the courtesy described by the hon. gentleman to be quite unusual in the pratice of receiving and presenting petitions to the House.

presented petitions from Louth, Market-Deeping, Spilsby, and the county of Lincoln against the property tax, the military establishments, and the profusion in every department.

, adverting to an observation of the noble lord (Castlereagh), that the protracted debates upon the military estimates had served to convince the country of the necessity of the proposed establishment, expressed a wish that the noble lord had been present at the meeting of the county of Lincoln on Friday last, and he would have been satisfied of the inaccuracy of his information. For at that meeting, which was by far the most unanimous and respectable he had ever witnessed in the Castle Yard of Lincoln, excepting only the case of a particular contested election, the sentiments of the county was decidedly opposite to the noble lord's observation. He would not, however, state that the meeting was unanimous in favour of the petition, for five gentlemen had spoken against it. But yet upon a show of hands, the assent to the petition was so universal, that no one, not even among those five dissentients, attempted to call for a division. The petition, however, was only signed by 600 persons, but this was owing to circumstances which he thought it necessary to explain. It was expected that the sheriff would have signed the petition on the part of the meeting, but that officer having refused to do so, it became necessary to apply for individual signatures. The petition, however, having been left at the town-hall, which was a small room with but one entrance, only a few persons could find admittance to sign the petition in due time, for that dispatch to which it was necessary, for obvious reasons, to attend. But such was the eager pressure of the people, that he was assured that several yeoman and farmers stood in the rain three or four hours, to wait the opportunity of signing their names. This he felt it necessary to state, in order that the House should not form an opinion of the feeling of this country from the comparatively few names annexed to the petition. The property tax was, in fact, universally unpopular in Lincolnshire, and it was also the general opinion in that county, that the war tax upon malt ought to be repealed. Indeed, the hostility to this tax was nearly equal to that against the continuance of the property tax. By the repeal of the malt war tax it was conceived that two important benefits would arise; namely, that agriculture would be served by the increased consumption of barley, and that the agricultural labourers would be enabled to purchase that beverage of which, of late years, they had scarcely a taste. Upon the merit of this calculation, he felt that he was not a competent judge, but he conceived it his duty to represent the opinion of a meeting at which he had the honour to attend.

said, that he differed on some points from the hon. baronet. That the meeting at Lincoln was numerous he was ready to admit, but then it was proper to allude to the expedients employed to augment that meeting, especially by an hon. baronet who had a large property in that county. It was a fact, that a clergyman in that county, acted upon by influence which was not unknown, had taken all his parishioners to the meeting, as if he were proceeding to a county election. He had also to state, that the noble lord (Castlereagh) need not, from any thing that took place at this meeting, or that was thought in Lincolnshire, feel much alarm about the accuracy of his observation with regard to the proposed military establishment; and he could add, that the people of that county did not object strongly to the continuance of the war tax upon malt.

spoke in favour of the petition, and bore testimony to the universal feeling of Lincolnshire against the property tax, and the proposed military establishment.

followed on the same side, and maintained that the sentiments expressed in the petition were those of the county at large.

said, that understanding some remarks from the hon. member for Lincolnshire were pointed particularly at him, he desired to know whether gentlemen who had property in a particular district were precluded by law, or should abstain in justice, from using their influence to second the wishes and promote the interests of the people. It was not surely pretended, that ministers hesitated to employ any influence in their power to advance their views. The hon. member was probably enabled to speak to that question; and why, then, should gentlemen who felt for the distresses of the country be inactive, while the baneful influence of the government was in active exertion. If, as the hon. gentleman had stated, a clergyman of Lincolnshire had been so active on this occasion, that clergyman was eminently entitled to praise for his public spirit, and he could not help expressing a wish that the generality of churchmen were equally meritorious. The hon. baronet said, he had not himself attended the meeting of Lincolnshire, from motives of delicacy, because he had been for eleven years a representative for that county, and from the same cause he had declined signing the requisition. But still he felt it his duty to support the opinion of that county, as he ever strenuously should the sentiments of his countrymen. This course, indeed, he was resolved uniformly to pursue, without any view to personal interest; for he sought neither power nor profit from his public conduct; on the contrary, he declared that the possession of the mines of Peru should not induce him to connect himself with administration.

declared, that he could not conceal his surprise at the statement which the House had heard from the hon. member for Lincolnshire; but when he considered the answer winch the petition itself afforded to that statement, he could not view it without uneasiness. The hon. member had ventured to assert, that the people of Lincolnshire were not anxious for the repeal of he war tax on malt, or averse to the proposed military establishment; but to refute that assertion, he would refer the hon. member and the House to the words of the petition, and after that reference, he thought no one could be surprised at any thing which fell from that hon. member [Hear, hear!]. With respect to the meeting at Lincoln, or the means used, as the hon. member stated, to influence that meeting, he (sir It. H.) would ask, whether means, the most gross and scandalous were not employed to produce an undue impression upon that meeting? For instance, one gentleman took the liberty of ascribing to him (sir R. H.) something little short of forgery, for putting names to the requisition which he was not fully authorized to do by the hand-writing of the gentleman alluded to. Those indeed who knew him, could not, he presumed, suppose that he would make use of the name of any person if not duly authorized.

stated, that having property in Lincolnshire, he had thought proper to sign the requisition for the meeting with which the petition originated.

said, that he had authorised the hon. baronet to include his name among those who required the sheriff to convene the meeting alluded to.

observed, that not a single name appeared in the requisition which was not duly authorized.

presented a petition from Southampton against the property tax, which he said was not signed by paupers and children, as had been asserted of a former petition which was stolen, but by respectable inhabitants.

stated, that this petition had been proposed under every disadvantage, and yet in the short space of six hours, from four o'clock till ten, it received 430 signatures, notwithstanding the rain fell in torrents all the time. He said, that during the time it lay for signatures, a person meanly dressed, presented himself in the room to sign it. The gentlemen who were there, recollecting the aspersion which had been cast upon the former petition, asked him whether he knew any thing about the property tax, or whether he paid towards it? He replied yes, for he rented a house which paid the property tax, and his rent had been raised by the landlord, in order to meet the property tax. He knew if the tax was taken off, that his rent would be reduced in proportion. Lord F. said, he mentioned this circumstance merely to prove, in opposition to what had been advanced by the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Rose), that those who did not pay directly to the property tax, yet paid indirectly to it.

presented a petition from the town of Sheffield, which he had received that morning by the coach. It was in favour of the property tax. The meeting, he understood, had not been regularly convened, as was the case with the former petition, but in the course of two days, during which it was drawn up and left for signatures, it was signed by up-wards of eleven hundred persons. Had there been sufficient time, the signatures would have been more numerous, but they were anxious to have it presented that day. The petitioners stated, that they believed the renewal of the property tax to be the best measure that could be resorted to, under all the circumstances of the country; but at the same time they relied on the wisdom of that House for carrying into effect such retrenchments as might be consistent with a due regard to the national honour and prosperity.

said, that he had had the honour of presenting a petition to the House some days since, from Sheffield, which emanated from a meeting regularly convened, and which had been signed by a great number of the most respectable inhabitants. By whom the present one was signed he knew not, but he wished to call the attention of the House to one circumstance connected with it. No public meeting whatever was called, but instead of that, the public crier went through the town to give notice that such a petition was lying for signatures, and he had a large printed placard, stating, that the inhabitants of Sheffield were required to attend at the Town-hall, to sign a petition for the purpose of compelling their representatives to pay, and not to have all the burthens saddled upon the poor. That was the way in which the petition had been obtained, and he thought it his duty to state the fact to the House.

said, he knew nothing as to the mode of proceeding which had been adopted. The petition was sent to him from Sheffield, and he felt it his duty to present it. With respect to the circumstance mentioned by the noble lord, he had himself seen an advertisement in the Leeds paper relating to the petition, in which it stated, that the operation of the tax was to lay the burthen on the rich, and not on the poor. In what way that advertisement had been employed by the town crier, he could not pretend to say.

rose to present the petition from the county of York, against the property tax. He said that a period of six and thirty years had elapsed since the inhabitants of that county had been called together to petition the legislature. The great difficulty, indeed, of calling together the inhabitants of that extensive county, and the conflicting interests which divided them, had always been so many obstacles in the way, and indeed it was felt to be an injudicious proceeding to bring together so heterogeneous a mass. But, on the present occasion, the feelings of all parties were united, not only with respect to the renewal of the property tax, but to the great distresses under which the country laboured. The only exception, he believed, throughout the realm was to be found on the opposite bench, for the right hon. gentleman still seemed to doubt those distresses, or at least persevered in thinking that they were not only transitory, but greatly exaggerated. Before he presented the petition, he wished to state, that the meeting consisted, as he was informed, of not less than 8000 freeholders, certainly, he was within the number when he stated that 5000 were assembled on that occasion in the Castle-yard. Among that number there were some persons attached to the present government, who, if they thought their voice could have been heard, or could have produced any influence, would have used their exertions to persuade the meeting that the petition was neither necessary nor salutary. But they abstained from all such interference, and to him that was a convincing proof they felt any interference would be useless. He understood, however, that the petition did not pass unanimously, for among the 5000 freeholders, there were some twelve or twenty persons, the known supporters of government, who held up their hands against it. But that fact proved volumes; it proved more than unanimity, for it showed that they were ready to avail themselves of any jarring or dissention that might arise. No such dissention, however, did arise, and the perfect unanimity of feeling in the meeting was fairly to be inferred from thence. On the former occasion when a petition was presented from the county of York, it was of such magnitude, that it would have reached from the body of that House to Westminster-hall. The present one certainly was not quite so long, because there had not been sufficient time for making it so; but it derived sufficient weight from the number of gentlemen who were assembled. It proved also, that the county of York was animated by the same feeling which prevailed in that House; and as he, for one, believed that House to be a faithful representation of the people, he hoped he should not be deceived on the present occasion, but that they would attend to the voice of the people, thus unequivocally expressed, by petitions from all parts of the country, emanating from meetings legally convened, by the respective mayors and sheriffs.

considered it the duty of the House to receive every petition from the country with candour and attention, and indeed on every occasion they had shown themselves always disposed to do so. At the same time he reprobated the idea, that because individuals chose to be absent from a public meeting held for the purpose of petitioning parliament, or who were compelled from urgent and indispensable business to be absent, such absence should be considered as an acquiescence in the propositions adopted by the general meeting. Probably they saw no utility in their going, and might therefore decline interfering in a cause which they had no doubt would be carried against them. He was aware the meeting which had agreed to this petition, was very respectably attended, and he trusted the House would give every due weight to this petition, yet he implored the House not to admit the idea of its being the unanimous voice of the county.

was astonished at the remarks occasionally delivered in the House when petitions not consonant to the feelings or wishes of a certain class of members, were presented. Every opportunity seemed to be taken, every circumstance eagerly grasped at, to induce the House to believe something or other which might lessen the weight of the petition. Against such conduct he, for one, would enter his protest. The petition now before the House had been fairly subscribed. The numbers collected at the meeting were very great, as it was during the period of the assizes. He would earnestly dissuade gentlemen from endeavouring, by such contemptible means to weaken the design of petitions.

presented a petition from the justices of peace, freeholders, and commissioners of supply of the county of Perth, which, while it prayed for retrenchments and economy, considered the property tax modified as expedient, provided no sufficient substitute could be found [Hear, hear!].

noticed the cheers from the noble lord and his friends opposite, from which he collected, that they looked upon this as a petition in favour of the property tax. But the House should be set right as to the petitions from Scotland, where the representation was such, that in the large and populous county of Perth, he did not believe there were more than 200 such persons as the subscribers: and these, he understood, amounted only to 20 or SO. He left the House to judge whether such petitions could speak the voice of the people.

said the petition was signed by 41 respectable persons; but the weather was very unsuitable for a larger attendance.

contended, that where a meeting was respectably attended, their petition, whatever its particular object was, had no right whatever to be abused by the House. As British subjects they were always entitled to profound respect from this House. The county which the worthy general represented had presented a petition, and though it was nearly the largest county in Scotland, yet there were only four dissentient voices from a series of resolutions proposed in favour of the property tax. That county had, with the small exception he had just mentioned, agreed, that no better remedy for the present distressed state of agriculture could be found, than this tax modified, as was proposed, in a proper manner. He was sorry to see petitions from Scotland so much branded as they were with sinister motives. The petition now before the House was not signed by paupers who had no share in the public burthens: it was signed by individuals both able and willing to pay while there was a demand for such payments.

said, it was not the question whether his county had done right or wrong. He agreed as to the respectability and independence of those who had signed this petition; but he must say that the representation in Scotland was such in its effects, as to give divine right not merely to kings, but to ministers.

said, the petition now read prayed for a modification of the tax; but he would ask what kind of modification? Why, it was one which would exclude the petitioners from paying this tax; but they had no objection whatever that it should be rigorously levied from others. "O," say the petitioners, "save our pockets; take it wherever you please, only let us be exempted." Such, too, was that of those petitioners who were collected together by a bell at Sheffield, all of whom petitioned for the express purpose of being themselves freed from taxes. The present petition was signed by a few individuals, calling themselves "commissioners of supply," a class of persons he did not comprehend, but its object was still to have that burthen cast on others which they found too heavy for themselves.

said, that he was often pained at observing the inconsistent conduct of gentlemen on the opposite side of the House. When a petition was presented to the House, in the smallest degree hostile to the tax, then the most violent clamour was raised, and expressions of resentment against the administration were repeatedly heard; but when a petition of a contrary nature was before the House, then the opposition went to work in a very just manner indeed! They described the meeting where such a petition was agreed to, as by no means respectably attended; and when they found that pitiful shelter insufficient, they endeavoured to lead the House to a misrepresentation of the petition, or in other words, they told the House that the petitioners thought one thing and said another. He protested against such gross improprieties, as derogatory, not only to the character of the House, but even to the petitioners. He was astonished at what had fallen from the hon. genera], for whose character no person could feel more respect than he did. He was as proud of his country as any man could be. He was proud of the virtues, the patriotism, and the manly independence of feeling which it was the glory of Scotchmen to possess. And he could tell the hon. gentleman who had spoken of a respectable body of men in Scotland as persons calling themselves commissioners of supply, that these persons were a body actuated by the most enlightened, virtuous, and loyal principles. By the act of parliament, no doubt, a person whose income was rated at 100l. in the king's books might be a commissioner of supply; but they were well known to be men actuated in every part of their conduct by the purest motives. He knew well the high respectability attached, and he would say justly attached, to the name of general Fergusson, and the more he considered such respectability the more he regretted that he should have spoken in terms so derogatory to the honour of his country. The petition now presented had been much misrepresented. The petitioners did not express the most distant wish for personal exemption from the tax at the expense of others. They detested such a mercenary idea, and in fact wished for a modification equally extended to all parties. They were able, and they declared themselves willing, to pay this tax. They considered it the most competent measure which ministers could devise. They had seen the honour and glory of their country promoted; they had seen our long and. arduous struggle terminated; and they considered this tax as the primary cause of such brilliant success. He therefore hoped that when petitions were presented they would no longer be attacked when they presumed to differ from the wishes of some members in that House.

A Member, whose name we could not learn, was anxious to hear the prayer of the petition again read. It had been so variously represented by members on both sides of the House, that he felt himself at a loss to decide what was or was not its real import.

observed, that the conduct of gentlemen on the opposite side was certainly worthy of animadversion. Notwithstanding their high pretensions to impartiality, they acted in a most improper manner when petitions of any kind were presented to the House. When the petition was agreeable to their own wishes, they instantly raised a violent clamour, and poured the most illiberal abuse on ministers; but when it happened to differ from what they wished it to be, they turned a deaf ear to it. He really thought this was by no means a decorous way of receiving petitions. He would now beg, that the petition might be again read by the clerk, which he had no doubt would at once satisfy the House that it had been misrepresented.

The petition was accordingly read. The petitioners "deprecated all exaggerated and disheartening representations of the inability of the country to sustain those unavoidable charges which the war has entailed upon it, and which necessity, not less than its best interests and soundest policy demand, that it should still endure; that if the necessities of the state had permitted government to dispense, immediately upon the return of peace, with those imposts, which a wide extended warfare had necessarily caused, they should have rejoiced in the seasonable relief which such an alleviation of public burthens would have afforded; and they should have derived peculiar satisfaction from the immediate and entire cessation of that tax which attaches upon income; and it would have afforded them much gratification, if other means could have been devised for raising the requisite supplies equally adequate, and as well calculated as that most efficacious financial resource has proved for sustaining the public credit, for bearing with comparative lightness on the poorer and labouring classes of the community, and for reaching income in the possession of whomsoever it may be vested; they apprehend, however, that no Such substitute can be found; and they are of opinion, that in the peculiar situation of the country it is a measure of expediency to submit to the continuance of that tax, provided that it be so limited in its endurance, as to be co-existent only with the necessity which requires its prolongation; that it be so abated in its rate, as to be rendered merely adequate to that necessity; that it be so modified, as to reconcile its actual operation with its professed principle of making the means of each individual the measure of his contribution towards the exigency of the state; that it be made to bear in equitable proportion upon income, according to the sources whence it is derived; and provided also, that essential relief be afforded to the agriculturist, from the inequality and severity with which this tax has hitherto been applied to that class of the community; they rely with confidence on the wisdom and in the equity of the legislature for the effectual fulfilment of those conditions which they have stated to be the basis of their acquiescence in this measure, more especially in regard to the as- sessment of profits arising from the cultivation of the soil."

stated, that the petitioners might indeed be very willing, but he questioned much their ability to pay the tax; as all his tenants who had signed the petition, with the exception of one individual, had become bankrupts [Hear, hear!].

trusted he was none of those individuals whose conduct the noble lord had so severely reprimanded, as contrary to every sense of decorum. Indeed, the noble lord himself seemed very decorous, when any petition was presented to the House [Hear!]. He (Mr. Ponsonby) listened to every petition brought before the House, without the smallest regard to the side which the petitioners took. No man could feel more deeply than he did, the high respect to which the petitions of British subjects were entitled from a British House of Commons. Yet with all the attention he had been able to give to the petition now twice read, he owned he could not understand the precise object at which the petitioners aimed. He begged pardon of the noble lord, but probably it arose from a defect of intellect. Really, with the little understanding he had, he must say that he thought the petitioners very liberal in their own way, in telling the minister he might load every person he pleased with this tax, but, that forsooth, he was not to touch a farthing of theirs! But he would tell the noble lord, who seemed so anxious respecting the decorum of the House, that an opportunity would soon be presented to him of showing the public how far he regarded their petitions. The people of Great Britain would soon see, from the part which the noble lord took in the debate, whether he was animated by that profound respect for them, by that unbiassed regard to propriety of conduct, by that anxious desire to deal fairly between man and man, and that patient attention in hearing their complaints, which he charged others with so culpably neglecting. The public would soon see who were or were not their friends, and who had the greatest compassion for them in their miserably exhausted state by the recent war.

was sorry that obloquy should be so unjustly thrown on Scotland, as had been done by former speakers. The course followed by gentlemen on the opposite side, had been well described by his noble friend. The more he considered the petition, the more he was convinced that if he should say any thing, it would weaken the effect which that petition was so admirably fitted to produce. But he again deprecated the conduct of those gentlemen in the improper views which they formed of every petition, however respectable the character or fortunes of the individuals might be, who had signed it, unless these petitions were equally clamorous with themselves against the measures of administration. The hon. member for Taunton had said that the petitions which he (sir G. Clerke) and Mr. Drummond had presented, were for exempting the petitioners from the tax at the expense of others. He would appeal to the House, whether in the present case, or whether in fact in any case such unworthy motives had ever been expressed by any class of British subjects. He concluded by approving highly of the tax, as the most equitable which could possibly be levied.

said, that the petition might be viewed as both for and against the tax. The petitioners seemed not to have had any precise object in view. He was sorry to hear Scotland charged with a neglect in paying taxes, and particularly as being deficient in paying her proper share of the property tax. Such insinuations were extremely unjust, and had a very bad tendency indeed. The tax was as severely levied from a Scotchman as it could possibly be from an Englishman; and he believed there was not a class of men in the British empire, who paid taxes more conscientiously and more faithfully than the people of Scotland did.

did not know that there existed in Scotland so general an execration of taxes. The people were certainly labouring under the pressure of heavy taxation, but no petition, complaining of the property tax, had been presented from the county of Banff.

said, that what the hon. member had stated with respect to the opinions of the Scotch was not correct. An equal number of petitions against the tax had been presented from Scotland, in comparison with other parts of the kingdom.

rose to present a petition from the merchants, bankers, and traders of the city of London against the continuance of the property tax. This meeting had, in consequence of a requisition, signed by several of that respectable body, to the Lord Mayor, been convened by public advertisement, in the Egyptian- hall, Mansion-house. A meeting of a more numerous and respectable nature never had met in the city of London. Assembled to state their sentiments on this important subject to parliament, they had firmly but respectfully declared their abhorrence of a tax repugnant to every thing like British feeling. Meetings of such a nature did not often take place in London, yet, in particular cases, where the safety and honour of the country had been in danger, the good citizens had shown their attachment, in the most satisfactory manner, to the genius, the spirit, and the preservation of our glorious constitution. He would allude to two instances, well-known to many that beard him. In the year 1793, when a general gloom pervaded the country, when credit seemed totally annihilated, and every man doubted his neighbour, a meeting of the merchants, bankers, and traders of London was held. By their spirited resolutions, the cloud which hung over the country was dispelled, the public credit was re-established, and every thing again assumed a smiling aspect. When on the failure of the negociations in 1798 the gloom seemed again to return, that same body had met in the Royal Exchange, and restored confidence, he would not say merely to those out of doors, but even to members in that House. The pressure of taxes was then deeply felt; the funds were depressed, and a general painful anxiety pervaded every bosom, respecting what would be the result. But that meeting in 1798 resolved that it was requisite for the safety of the country that the expenditure of every year should be levied within the year, and on their resolutions the minister, introduced the property tax to the consideration of the House. These resolutions had gladdened the heart of that celebrated minister, Mr. Pitt, who was now no more, as giving him the rational hope of reviving the funds of the country. Sir William said, he was present in the House when the tax was first proposed, and he heard Mr. Pitt declare that it should be a war tax only, and should positively cease on the restoration of peace. He was particularly sorry that a right hon. gentleman, whose character was in every point of view so honourable as the chancellor of the exchequer was, should have for a moment denied that any pledge was given for the abolition of the tax. Not only the members of that House, but every man who knew any thing of the history of the tax, knew that pledges of the most solemn nature had been given for its abolition, pledges which could not he violated without a gross insult to the British character. When this tax was first proposed by the respectable meeting he had alluded to, he would ask the chancellor of the exchequer—he would ask the noble lord (Castlereagh) what were the views entertained by the merchants, bankers, and traders? Did they ever for one moment suppose that this tax was to be continued at the caprice of any minister, when there was no occasion for it, and that the houses of individuals were to be entered, their books examined, and their secrets divulged in a manner which no Briton could bear, and which no Briton ought to bear? Such an idea had never entered their minds. They never refused their money to government when necessity called for it, but they wished to see that necessity properly made out. The petition he had now the honour to present was signed by 22,000 of that number, and if the House were to examine the list of names, they would find many among them who had rallied round government in the most difficult crisis, and had joined heart and hand in its support. We were told by the chancellor of the exchequer that he must have money, as he had great need for it. He would ask, where was that necessity now, that the country had returned to the blessings of peace? In the proposal made for its renewal last year he had concurred, because he was then convinced, from the situation in which the country was placed, that ministers required it. It was necessary for the subjugation of that restless enemy with whom we had been compelled to go again to war. But now, when that enemy no longer was an object of dread, .now, when the country was labouring under almost incredible distresses, were these distresses not to be alleviated, but was this intolerable burthen still to remain? "Go to the different parts of the country (said sir William) examine the thousand varied hardships which numbers are bearing, and let any man judge whether the minister can be justified, who, regardless of these distresses, dares to add to their number. Even in London, where men have better means of getting some relief, let the long list of bankruptcies, and the numbers out of employment, bear witness to the melancholy state of the country. The citizens of London, who had signed this petition, would pay when payment was indispensable; but they detested the idea of unnecessary oppression [Cheers] "He concluded by referring to an attempt made to get a counter petition in favour of the tax, but observed, that its friends finding they could only procure twenty seven names, had very wisely put the petition in their pockets. The Petition was then read, setting forth,

"That in the judgment of the petitioners, the property or income tax is in its principle arbitrary, at variance with the spirit and general practice of our constitution, and that it ought only to be submitted to in cases of urgent necessity; that, inasmuch as it operated indiscriminately upon all casual as well as permanent incomes, it is not equitable; and that, in its application to trade and commerce, it has been found inquisitorial and oppressive; that, during the long and arduous struggle in which this country has been engaged, the petitioners have patiently submitted to taxes, however burthensome, and even to this imposition, however vexatious, in the confident reliance that, upon the return of peace, they should be relieved from those contributions at least which were professedly raised for the purpose of defraying within each year a considerable portion of the extraordinary and unavoidable expenses of the war; that the faith of parliament had been expressly pledged for the cessation of the income tax with the war, which alone could justify such establishments and expenditure as rendered that galling burthen necessary; and that, in the petitioners understanding and belief, it had never been continued nor renewed without its being accompanied by the same pledge; that no modification of its details, or abatement in the rate of its immediate exactions, can in the opinion of the petitioners remove the obnoxious principle of this tax, or compensate for the alarming precedent of its enactment during peace; that to anticipate in time of peace those extraordinary resources which should be reserved for the defence of the national interest, honour, and independence, when either are endangered by foreign aggression, appears to the petitioners to be injurious not only to the domestic comfort and prosperity of the country, but to its reputation and influence abroad; that the petitioners, therefore, earnestly intreat the House not to permit the renewal of the income and property tax, and to pro- mote efficient measures forthwith for the diminution of the public expenditure."

bore testimony to the extreme respectability of those who signed the petition. On no occasion did he ever see a greater number of persons, of elevated character and large property, assembled together. Had the space left at the bottom of the petition for signatures, been twice as large, it would have been filled up. With the exception of one solitary hand, which was held up against the petition, the most perfect unanimity prevailed. He wished to impress on the mind of the right hon. gentleman this remarkable fact—that many of the persons who signed the present petition were amongst those who rallied round Mr. Pitt when the tax was first proposed; and the descendants of many other gentlemen, who also came forward to assist him at that period, had likewise placed their signatures to it. He would ask whether the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman were prepared, in the face of their best friends—those who had steadily supported the measures of government, in 1793, and afterwards, at periods of great difficulty—to adhere to a measure, which, as far as he could understand, almost every individual, the great majority of good men in the country, opposed and reprobated? But why was this pertinacity manifested? Could the right hon. gentleman show any good cause for persisting in bringing this measure forward? Sir James said, he could not perceive one single argument that justified the measure. What did the right hon. gentleman want? Had he made out a case of necessity sufficiently strong, when he said, that he stood in need of six millions? Was that a proper reason for calling on the House to adopt a measure, which, as his honourable colleague had observed, was abhorrent to the genius and feelings of the people of England? He was satisfied, that, even if this tax were carried, the people would be unable to pay it. If ministers succeeded in imposing it this year, he was convinced they would be compelled to repeal it in the next. Why was this tax proposed in 1798? Because the funds had fallen so low (down to 50 and even 47), that it was feared, if money were raised by loans, the effect would be to depreciate them in a still more alarming degree. What was the state of the stocks at present? The funds were now upwards of 60; and, therefore, a loan might be negociated under five per cent. He had taken leave, at an early period, when but few petitions were presented on this subject, to advise that a loan of six millions should be resorted to, which could be raised without difficulty; and that the weight of a feather in the way of taxation, should not be imposed on the people this year, he had proposed that the interest should be taken out of the sinking fund. The right hon. gentleman did not, however, approve of this. Why could he not, then, issue exchequer bills to that amount, which was a proceeding pretty similar? But, probably he disliked that also. Still there was another mode—to take the sum necessary from the sinking fund. If this did not meet his approbation, there was a fourth plan; namely, to raise a loan, on which no interest should be paid for two years. This plan had been adopted in America, with very great success. In conclusion, the hon. baronet expressed a strong hope, that his majesty's ministers, who had, on many occasions, shown so much good sense, would not now be so blind to the state of this question, so wanting in respect for the public feeling, so deficient in that deference which the temperately-expressed opinion of the people deserved, as to persevere in forcing this measure forward.

said, he had flattered himself that ministers, in consequence of the representations that had been made from every quarter of the country, would have given up this obnoxious measure; and he regretted extremely that they were determined, as he understood, to proceed with it. Still, however, he relied on the firmness of the people, and on the exertions of their representatives in that House, to defeat the purpose of ministers. He had heard it rumoured, that government reckoned on the support of the Irish members in this contest. He humbly in-treated those gentlemen not to lend themselves on such an occasion—not to be instrumental in placing burthens on others, no part of the weight of which would fall upon them. If they adopted such a line of conduct—but he believed they were too honourable and too high-spirited to do so—it would tend, more than any other course whatever, to alienate the affections of the people of this country from Ireland.

said, as the petition in favour of the property tax, signed by forty-one individuals, seemed to have made a great impression on the noble lord, and to have afforded him much pleasure, he hoped he would pay some little attention to the sentiments contained in the petition of the city of London, signed by 22,000 gentlemen, many of whom had always showed themselves perfectly ready to stand forward, in time of necessity, and to give every assistance in their power to government. Looking at the two petitions, it was not difficult, he conceived, to say which of them spoke the feelings of the country at large. His own opinion of this tax was, that, with certain modifications, it would be a very proper one; and, before he had the honour of a seat in that House, he stated what modifications appeared to him to be necessary; but when he heard the general sense of the country expressed against it, he would not place his sentiments in opposition to the almost universal voice of the people. He thought their representations were entitled to every attention, after they had borne their portion of taxation for so many years with patience and cheerfulness. The worthy alderman spoke in the highest terms of the respectability of the meeting at which the petition was signed.

, having attended the meeting at which this petition was agreed to, wished to say a few words with reference to it. So much had already been said by the hon. representatives for the city, that he had very little to offer in explanation of the proceedings that took place there. Many meetings had been held in the city, to petition against the income tax, and, amongst the rest, the corporation had expressed their decided hostility to it. Now, it was said, that the corporation spoke the sense of the city; but here, in addition to the corporation, the great mass of merchants, bankers, and traders, persons who were not members of that body, came forward and delivered precisely the same sentiments. He never in this, or in any other country, witnessed such a meeting. He really believed, that a meeting of so much respectability had never been collected on any former occasion whatever, The whole of the discussion proceeded, not on any distress at present felt by the commercial interest (and they felt, at this moment, considerable distress as well as the farmers)—the argument proceeded solely on the odious nature of this tax—on the depredations to which commercial men were every year exposed, by those inquisitorial examinations into their most private affairs, which the income tax autho- rized. When the intelligence spread from county to county, that no intention existed of abandoning this measure, then it was time to bring before the House, clearly and plainly, the odious light in which it was viewed by commercial men throughout the country. Those who had to pay the tax on landed property had at present no notion of the oppressions and vexations which merchants and traders suffered under it. It was stated, that the tax would have the concurrence of the mercantile part of the community, in consequence of some partial alterations, favourable to them, which were to be made in, it. But this petition, signed by the merchants and traders of the city of London, exposed the fallacy of that rumour. They were not to be swayed by any considerations personal to themselves. Many of of those who signed the petition were amongst the original promoters of this tax—they were amongst those who called their fellow citizens together, and exhorted them to bear the burthen of the property tax cheerfully; and it was a most singular circumstance, that the resolutions and the petition were proposed by the very same individual (Mr. Hibbert) who originally proposed the tax—a gentleman whose character stood as high as that of any person in the city of London—and who, when he was a member of that House, performed his duties with ability and integrity. The merchants and bankers of the city of London did not come forward with a request that the House should modify this tax—that they should relieve them from the burthen, and place it on the shoulders of other people. They said, This is a tax of so odious a nature, that nothing but the most urgent necessity could induce us to bear it." That necessity certainly had not been made out; and he hoped the measure would finally be given up. Considering the number of petitions which poured in from every part of the country, he did not think the House would place much stress on that which was signed by forty-one persons, in favour of the tax, and which the noble lord had cheered with so much satisfaction from beginning to end. The noble lord would, perhaps, begin to feel, that favour at court was not alone necessary to keep a minister in power, but that it was also proper to pay attention to the opinions of the people.

said, he had not intended to take any part in the present debate, but he owned he felt it impossible for him to sit silent, after the observations that had been made by the representatives for the city of London. He was highly pleased with the feelings that governed the conduct of the 22,000 persons, whose names were signed to this petition. They took no narrow view of the question, but expressed their sentiments as decidedly hostile to the principle of the tax, and to its inquisitorial and oppressive nature. He recollected, on a former occasion, when the chancellor of the exchequer said, that petitions were to be weighed by their own merits, and not to be estimated by the situations of those who signed them—that gold chains and fur gowns did not render representations made to parliament a whit more worthy of notice. This session, however, petitions were laid on the table, not merely supported by those who wore fur gowns and gold chains, but by the whole mass of the commercial population of London. The right hon. gentleman ought now to consider, whether the boon he offered to the commercial and funded interest, was indeed a boon, when he found a great body of gentlemen, representing the whole of that interest, unanimously rejected it. The noble lord had talked of "clamouring down" the proposition for renewing the income tax. Now, he should be glad to know, did the noble lord think that those 22,000 gentlemen had joined in the cry of clamouring down the measure? The petition had lain, for a length of time, to be signed by the merchants of London. During that period, they had had an opportunity of attending the House—of hearing what occurred there—and of reading every thing that was offered, for or against this measure. It appeared, however, that the reasoning in favour of the tax, had not altered their view of it; for now came their petition, signed by 22,000 persons, such as they had heard described—and he asked of the noble lord, whether he conceived it was the work, or spoke the sentiments of ignorant, clamorous persons, or was not, on the contrary, the result of the deliberate consideration of gentlemen every way qualified to weigh and balance the question?

said, he did not often speak in that House, but, on the present occasion, he felt himself imperatively called on to state his opinion. Seeing the strong opposition that was made to the renewal of this tax, be deemed it right to express his conviction, that it was a most wise and proper measure. He admitted that it was a very inconvenient tax—but it was fit that such temporary inconvenience should be borne, for the purpose of arriving at a permanent good. It put him to great inconvenience—he suffered much from it—but he and his constituents were content to bear it, because they thought it would, ultimately, render them essential service. He had conversed with several persons connected with the monied and commercial interest, who considered this measure the best that could be devised. They felt its pressure; but they also felt, that the honour, dignity, and consequence of this nation could not be maintained without it. Viewing the measure in exactly the same light, he should conscientiously give it his support.

said, he had been, for many years, a member of that House, and he derived the greatest gratification from the reflection—a gratification that he should carry with him to his grave, that he had uniformly supported the measures of Mr. Pitt. He had heard, for the first time, that evening, that Mr. Pitt was indebted for all his great plans to the city of London—a position which he was very much inclined to doubt. The system of meeting the expenses of the year, within the year, was one of those which, he believed, originated with Mr. Pitt; and by means of which this country had achieved a great deal. This tax constituted a branch of that system; and, as his own common sense told him, that, in the present instance, it was a war tax, necessary for defraying the expenses created by the war—and that it could not be fairly considered a tax applicable to the expenses of peace—he should support it. Gentlemen who now opposed it, said, they had formerly voted for it, because they thought it necessary; for this very reason, he should now vote for the tax, because he conceived it was called for to wind up the expenses of the war.

would not have said a word on this occasion, if it were not for what fell from the hon. gentleman (Mr. Alexander) below him. The city members had brought up a petition, not merely signed by those who were their constituents, but by several thousand respectable persons, who were residents in the metropolis. He had heard, with very great surprise, the hon. gentleman to whom he had alluded, speak with considerable confidence of the monied interest, as favourable to this measure. Now, if the sentiments of the monied interest, in general, were not to be collected from the subscribers to the city petition, he was really at a loss to know where they were to be looked for. And he should ask any 658 rational men in Europe, whether they would place their confidence in the sentiments of 22,000 merchants, bankers, and traders, speaking the general sense of the monied interest, or incline to the opinion of a few of the hon. gentleman's private friends? The hon. gentleman also spoke, if his ears did not deceive him, of his "constituents!" [Hear, hear]. The sentiments of the hon. gentleman's constituents, he was sure, were very likely to weigh a great deal, in the consideration of the House, against the opinion of 22,000 men of first-rate character and property. His constituents were to be found within the walls of that respectable borough in the county of Wilts, Old Sarum [Hear, hear! and a laugh]. He believed, they were, in number, five or six [A laugh, and cries of No! no!]. He found that he had over-rated them four-fold.—The hon. gentleman's "constituents" were, if he might use the phrase, one person. Such were the constituents and such the monied interest to which the hon. gentleman had referred, and placed in opposition to the recorded sentiments of 22,000 persons; his conduct had really filled him with so much astonishment, that he felt quite confused, and could scarcely believe he had heard him correctly. He should, at some future period, deliver his sentiments on certain points of this important question; and he hoped he should recover sufficiently from his astonishment, not to vote on the wrong side, when the Speaker put the question to the House.

, in explanation, said, he was a man engaged in business, and had considerable property placed in his hands. When he spoke of persons connected with the monied interest, he alluded to those with whom he had extensive transactions.

The several petitions were ordered to lie on the table.

wished to ask the noble lord opposite, why. there had been so much delay in deciding in council on the cases of the prisoners in Newgate now under sentence of death? He had himself found by personal inspection of the gaol of Newgate, that 58 persons under sentence of death were there confined. Many of these had received their sentence at the December sessions, and had been, therefore, for months confined in a state of the most painful suspense. The subject was the more worthy of observation, since, in consequence of the paucity of cells, there being but 15, three unhappy prisoners were placed in each cell. If a satisfactory explanation were not given, he should bring the subject directly under the consideration of the House.

stated, that the cause of the delay was, the continued indisposition of the Prince Regent, and the difficulty and inconvenience of assembling the law officers at Brighton, who ought to be present in council on these occasions.

warmly expressed his astonishment and indignation at what had fallen from the noble lord. What was the indisposition which thus prevented the most solemn act of royalty? Was it mere sickness? Was it what in common life was called indisposition? Did the noble lord, standing there as minister of the Crown, say that that was a sufficient reason for allowing so important a question as the ascertaining of the royal pleasure with respect to the life or death of so many unhappy persons, to remain for so many months undetermined? This grievous evil was to exist because the individual who filled the kingly office in this country, happened to be what the noble lord called indisposed, and could not come to London, and because there would be some difficulty and inconvenience in collecting at Brighton the law authorities when it was necessary to consult on the subject. Whatever might be that difficulty and inconvenience—if Brighton were 500 instead of 50 miles from London—if it were on the coast of Sutherland instead of on the coast of Sussex, it was the duty of his majesty's government to take the necessary measures for the effectual discharge of this important function of royalty; and he repeated, that he felt the utmost astonishment and indignation at the neglect that had been evinced. The noble lord concluded by apologizing for his warmth, and by moving "that there be laid on the table an account of the number of persons under sentence of death in Newgate, with the dates at which they were severally sentenced."

said, he saw no I objection to the production of the account which the noble lord called for, but it did appear to him extraordinary that the answer of his noble friend should be so taken. He could easily conceive that an hon. member, upon going to Newgate, might find many persons on whom sentence of death had been passed, in a state of great suspense and anxiety, and he might feel that it was highly desirable that their cases should be disposed of with as little delay as possible: but if the hon. member had attended to the recorder's reports, he would have found that it was no new occurrence for the decision on the cases of persons in such a situation to be delayed for a considerable length of time, and the practical inconvenience that might result from calling away the law officers from their other judicial functions at a particular period ought to be considered. He repeated, that a great practical inconvenience might result from compelling the attendance of the judges at certain periods at a place so distant, where the Prince Regent was confined by his indisposition. It must be perfectly familiar to all who had attended to these matters, that in the greater number of cases the sentence of death was remitted, and it was only in a comparatively small number of instances that, for the security of the public, the law was suffered to take its course. There was a very considerable number at present under sentence of death; but it might be confidently anticipated, that with respect to the greater number they would not be discharged, but have the capital part of their punishment remitted. The judgment of their peers, however, had found them guilty of capital crimes, and therefore if the matter were coolly and impartially looked at, it would appear that very few of them had any great reason to complain. The delay was, indeed, in the present instance considerable; but on all such occasions every one of the cases received the most careful and anxious consideration upon examination of the judges' notes, and some delay was therefore unavoidable. They were considered by the judges, and all the learned lords who attended the council when these matters were the subject of deliberation; and though he would not oppose the present motion, he denied that there was any substantial ground of complaint.

said, he really could hardly believe the testimony of his own ears when he heard it stated by his majesty's attorney general that there was no practical inconvenience in keeping fifty-eight unfortunate men in a state of such agonizing suspense. Were they then to be told, that there was no great hardship in keeping men still ignorant of their fate, on whom sentence of death had been passed at the December sessions? Was it nothing to keep them in this state of cruel suspense? All who had attended particularly to the nature and effect of penal law, had perceived the mischievous consequences which followed from too great an. interval between the sentence and execution. The miserable persons themselves were in the mean time perhaps buoyed up with false hopes, and would be doubly punished on finding afterwards that they had flattered themselves with vain expectations. Two councils had been lately held, and a message on an important subject had been brought down within these few days, which had been considered at one of these meetings, so that the delay in the present instance did not arise from the necessity of the case. But then it was said, that great inconvenience would arise from compelling the attendance of the judges at such a distance. His answer was, that whatever the inconvenience might be, it ought to be submitted to; for though the evil might be great, it was nothing in comparison of that which arose from such a delay in the execution of this important duty. But, in point of fact, the attendance of all the judges was not required, and the reports of the judges were sometimes taken by the lord chancellor and the recorder. The opinions of the judges were always given in on these occasions, but it was not considered necessary that they themselves should be present. So much as to the effects of this delay with respect to the individuals. But they must also look at the matter with a view to the interest of the public. What was the great purpose of punishment Example. But if such a long interval were suffered to elapse between the trial, the sentence, and the punishment, the crime would be forgotten, and nothing would appear but a parcel of men going to be hanged, without its being generally known for what—a spectacle for idle people! These were the effects of this delay, which must be considered as most pernicious in a public view, as well as most cruel with respect to the miserable individuals.

, in explanation, said, that he did not assert that no practical inconvenience arose from the delay; but that it was not uncommon, with respect to those who were not ordered for immediate execution, for some delay to take place before the pleasure of the Crown was announced as to their cases.

The motion was then agreed to.

rose to submit his proposition for the continuance of the property tax. He expressed his hope that when the very important and serious nature of the subject was considered, the committee would apply itself to the question with that calmness and impartiality which its importance demanded. He was now to submit for the serious and deliberate consideration of parliament his proposition for the continuance of the property tax: and as the House had already sanctioned the estimates for a considerable naval and military establishment, it was an obvious consequence, that the necessary means must be allowed for the support of those establishments. It was said, that the general sense of the country was strongly adverse to the continuance of this tax; but he could not consider that opinion, in whatever degree it might exist, otherwise than as a prejudice, arising partly from feelings of very natural impatience, and partly from misapprehensions and misrepresentations, which, he was persuaded, would be removed when the subject came to be better considered. He had been told of the vast number of petitions which had come up against the measure. Still he thought it his duty to submit the question for the calm and deliberate consideration of parliament, and by its judgment he would abide. The petitions contained only the sentiments of a very small proportion of the people [Hear, hear!]. It could not be contended that the signatures to those petitions, although very numerous, contained a very great proportion of the whole population of the country; nor could it be expected that many persons would carry disinterestedness and public spirit so far as to petition in favour of a heavy tax: though, in fact, there were on the table several petitions praying for its continuance with more or less modification. But, even if a much greater number had petitioned against the measure, he should still consider it his duty to submit it to the consideration of the House, and to give parliament an opportunity of judging of its propriety, by laying before them the grounds upon which he thought it fitting to make the proposition. The petitioners had only attended to the pressure upon themselves, which they were naturally anxious to remove, because they thought it no longer necessary. But he was persuaded that such would not have been their judgment, if they had had an opportunity of being fully acquainted with the whole matter, and of deliberating calmly and impartially upon the subject.

He was the more convinced that the petitioners had not understood the subject, and had never coolly and impartially considered it, when he observed that almost all these petitions contained the unfounded allegation that the government and parliament stood pledged that the tax should cease with the war. In the petition which had been last presented (the London petition), signed, he admitted, by a great number of persons of the highest respectability, the same allegation was strongly put forward. But if the petition had been agreed to upon the grounds and arguments stated by the worthy baronet (sir William Curtis), he should certainly consider it as any thing rather than the calm and deliberate judgment of the bankers, merchants, and traders of the city of London. The worthy baronet said, that the tax originated in a meeting of merchants, bankers, and others, in London; and that it was thereupon adopted by Mr. Pitt, with a distinct pledge that it should not be continued after the conclusion of a general peace. That was the argument of the worthy baronet: and if the petition rested on that, the committee would presently see how that matter really stood. In the year 1798, in consequence of the alarming state of public credit, a meeting was held in the city of London, and there a great sum was subscribed by several very respectable individuals by way of war contribution. Mr. Pitt had, however, previously determined to relieve in some measure the pressure on the funds by raising a large sum for the service of the year, by means of the aid and contribution tax, which was more commonly called by the name of the triple assessment. This he afterwards changed into the far less burthensome and less objectionable measure, the income tax; but, instead of giving any pledge that the tax should cease with the war, he distinctly stated in his original opening speech, that it should be continued during one year of peace for every year of war. For instance, if the war continued three years, then the tax was to remain for three years of peace. Mr. Pitt not only did not propose that it should cease with the war, but a proportion of the interest and sinking fund of loans was charged upon it much larger than its produce in one year. Suppose the interest and sinking fund four millions and a half, and the sum borrowed 20 millions, the interest and sinking fund proportioned to fifteen and a half millions was to be charged on the income tax. The consequence of this system, which completely contradicted the argument of the worthy baronet, was, that when the preliminaries were signed, the income tax had been already pledged to the public creditor during eight years of peace: so that it was perfectly clear, that when the income tax originated, it was not in the contemplation either of Mr. Pitt, of parliament, or of the nation, that it must cease with the war. At the peace of Amiens, however, the tax, which was then mortgaged for fifty-six millions, was set aside by lord Sidmouth; but that was done by imposing a large mass of permanent taxes, amounting to no less than five millions a year. On the renewal of the war, lord Sidmouth proposed the property tax, which was adopted, but no pledge whatever was given that it should immediately cease with the war.

In this situation the matter stood, when a considerable addition was made to the amount of the tax by lord Henry Petty (the present marquis of Lansdowne), then chancellor of the exchequer. From the necessity of the occasion the tax was at that time raised from 6¼ to 10 per cent. and the financial plan was submitted to parliament which he had referred to on a late occasion. What he had then said had been much misapprehended, and consequently misrepresented. What he had stated was, that the paln in qaestion was so constructed as to render it necessary, in certain events, that the tax should not cease with the war. This had been commented on in another place, as if he had represented that the noble lord (Grenville) then at the head of the treasury, and the chancellor of the exchequer, had expressed an intention that the tax should be continued during peace. He had never said so. He had only said that they had considered it merely as a question of expediency, and not a question of good faith; and had never conceived that parliament was pledged to put an end to the tax with the war. In the manner in which he had alluded to that plan, he had expressed himself with all those feelings of respect and regard which he ever ought to entertain towards those noble lords; but he must not lose the benefit of their high authority to show that no distinct pledge was ever given that the tax should cease with the war. In the printed development of that plan it was expressly stated, that it might be expected to cease within a very short time after the conclusion of peace. This was not the language of one who meant to convey a pledge that the tax should at all events cease with the war. If such had been the meaning of those noble persons, would they not have distinctly stated that the property tax was not to be pledged at all to the public creditor? But they spoke of it as a mere question of discretion. In the series of papers then laid on the table, marked (2), it would appear that it was contemplated that the tax might be pledged for large sums. He was able to go somewhat further, and show from a reported speech made by the then chancellor of the exchequer, in reply to some observations offered by the right hon. the treasurer of the navy, that the plan of finance then proposed expressly contemplated the possibility of the tax existing in peace. The noble lord (lord Henry Petty) had then said, "that he made no pledge of his own opinion respecting the permanency of the property tax in time of peace."

rose to order. He insisted that it was extremely irregular to read a passage of a reported account of a speech in parliament.

answered, that nothing was more usual than to refer historically to accounts of former debates in parliament, and that he had the more right to do so on the present occasion, as a speech of his own had been quoted and commented on in another place.

observed, that there was a great difference between quoting an unauthorized report, and a speech which had been "corrected and published under the eye of the right hon. gentleman.

observed, that nothing was more common than to refer to a member's speech delivered on a former occasion; but if the hon. gentleman would prefer an oral recollection of what passed on that occasion to a written account of it, he would tell it them from his own memory.

continued, and remarked, that the speech which had in another House been quoted as his, had no more been published by his authority than that of the noble lord. He would, however, with the permission of the House, go on to state what had been the opinion of the chancellor of the exchequer at the period before referred to [Read, read!]. The noble lord had said, that no one had yet proposed to continue the property tax in time of peace, even as an annual grant, although if the public could be reconciled to it, it might, at a reduced rate, be preferable to many others. His (the chancellor of the exchequer's) own speech, which had been quoted, corresponded exactly in sentiment, and very nearly in expression, with the speech of the noble lord. He had, indeed, stated that he would here take occasion to give some explanation with respect to the property tax, which he was supposed to have pledged himself to repeal. That was not the nature of his pledge, but that the means for repealing it would exist, and that parliament would be free to consider the propriety of applying them. His own opinion was inclined to concur with that of the right hon. gentleman that a small portion of the property tax would be less burthensome than those taxes on consumption, which, though less immediately felt, were ultimately more burthensome and less productive, as being charged with a profit by every person, through whose hands the article passed, and diminished in a similar succession by every hand employed in the collection. The propriety of the continuance of such a small property tax would however remain to be regulated by the public feeling and the public convenience at the time. He thought he had now completely made out his case, that neither in 1803 nor 1806 had any pledge been given that the tax might not be continued under some possible contingencies. He had shown it from written documents, and could confirm it by his own personal recollection of what then took place.

He came now to the transactions of last year: and certainly he could say, that at least the circumstances of that period, when the event of the great contest which had been renewed in so extraordinary a manner was wholly uncertain, afforded no seasonable opportunity of making such a pledge to the country. It was true that when the tax was proposed, a great many gentlemen suggested various modifications: but he had recommended to the House not to enter, at that important crisis, into minute details, expressing at the same time an opinion, that the consideration of the modifications would come on better at the end of the year, when the question of renewing the tax would be discussed. That time had now arrived, and now was the opportunity for proposing and debating on the modifications.

He had, perhaps, detained the House somewhat too long with these preliminary remarks, but he had done so because he felt that a very strong impression prevailed out of doors that there had been a breach of a solemn pledge. Nor was it to be wondered that those who did not possess the knowledge of hon. members on this subject should be deceived, when it appeared that even hon. members themselves, with all their opportunities of accurate knowledge, had been completely mistaken. It certainly was highly honourable to the national character, that the people were so acutely alive to any supposed violation of faith on the part of public men. But he must say, that, in this case, it was almost impossible that any pledge could have been given. It was almost impossible, because the supposition implied that a contract could be entered into between the people and their representatives, that the same representatives should never, under any possible circumstances, reconsider whether a particular measure might not be beneficial to the people [Hear, hear!]. A minister must be very indiscreet, and entirely unworthy of his situation, who could make such a kind of promise. But, however that might be, it was undeniable that, in the present instance, no such promise had been made. Nothing had occurred which ought to prevent either himself or any other person from proposing a renewal of the tax, No minister had ever pledged himself to its indispensable discontinuance; and Mr. Pitt, on the contrary, had gone so far as expressly to pledge its continuance to the public creditor. The question, therefore, of its revival, from all these circumstances, might be pronounced to be wholly open to discussion.

He came now to that part of the sub- ject which, though in some points of view not so momentous as the question of public honour involved in the supposed breach of faith, was however of more immediate and practical importance—and this was, the necessity of imposing this charge. Here again he was ready to meet the worthy alderman. It was true, as he had said, that the tax was brought in when public credit required it. The period of 1797 was over when the necessity of supporting the public credit was of the severest and most urgent nature. The different misfortunes which then pressed upon the country were aggravated by the loans, amounting to fifty-six millions—a weight beyond what the money market could bear. The depression of the funds was consequently very great—so great, that it was thought advisable to raise the supplies within the year. Now, what had been the case with respect to the two years 1814 and 1815? Exactly one hundred millions had been borrowed—a sum so large, that parliament was called upon to use all its exertions in order to relieve the burthens of the money-market. There had been in fact no period when public credit more required support. At the peace of Amiens—a peace far less glorious and secure than the present—a peace which, in all its relations, was rather a contrast than a parallel with the present peace—yet then, at the very moment of negociating the loan, the funds were as high as 75. Gentlemen need not be told how different were the present prices; nor was it matter of surprise, when it was considered, that in the four last years no less than 165 millions had been borrowed. And here he must be allowed to say, that whatever animadversions might be made on the enormity of these loans, yet whenever he considered the astonishing series of successes and of glory which had resulted from them, he could not but esteem it the highest honour that could have befallen so humble an individual as himself, that he had been the instrument of proposing such a plan of finance to the parliament. The effect of the measures which had been carried through that House had been felt through all the operations of the war. No service had been delayed for want of adequate pecuniary means—no success had been checked in its career for want of the efficient supply of proportionate resources. Large, indeed, our expenditure had been, but there had been no waste, and that had been found to be the truest economy, which, by expending in proportion to the occasion, produced results proportionate to the expense [Hear, hear!]. He was aware that there was another species of economy likely to be recommended and enforced by the hon. gentlemen opposite. All he would say on that subject at present was, let gentlemen wait till the proper opportunity, and proper documents came before them. He would merely add, that he himself anticipated a considerable reduction in several branches of public expenditure.

An hon. baronet had proposed four alternatives for the property tax—all, however, founded on the principle of borrowing instead of raising money. He strongly objected to this principle, because, as he had already shown, the money-market should be relieved, not burthened. There was a time when the very idea of a loan in a period of peace would have excited general alarm. The institution of the sinking fund had served to relieve much of these fears; and he did not mean to say that when the system of credit should have become improved, a loan might not be resorted to; but the loan must follow, not precede, the improvement of this credit. He had heard indeed that it had been said, that a small loan would give animation to the money market. Now, though he was inclined to respect the opinions of practical men, whose experience he had generally found very safe to rely upon in all practical matters: yet there was something so paradoxical in this assertion, that he could not subscribe to it, notwithstanding all his respect for the quarter from which it came. Though he had no doubt that the assertors of this opinion believed themselves to be perfectly disinterested in the advice which they gave, yet it was not easy to acquit them of some sort of bias. Some latent motive, unknown even to themselves, might be created by the difference between paying five per cent. out of their income, and adding 20 per cent. to it. On a former occasion he had illustrated the advantage of taxation over borrowing, by supposing the familiar instance of a miraculous shower of gold, by which every man might have a guinea in his pocket. In this case no man would, from the possession of a single guinea, be the more able to pay a debt of ten pounds. No man, in fact, would derive any serious or permanent advantage from such an acquisition. On the other hand, let the col- lected mass of these individual guineas come into the hands of the chancellor of the exchequer, and then pass through the bank, and the country banks, into all the hands of those who most want it, it would thus become an active productive capital to the nation. Instead of merely furnishing the means of a short indulgence, or a temporary repose, it would enable those who employ and direct the industry of the country to call it into vigorous action. Every sum so distributed would become the parent of increasing wealth and prosperity. Agriculture and commerce would be encouraged, and the system of money speculations would revive and flourish. Every gentleman must, he believed, see the applicability of this illustration: every one must see that the principle of it had been the cause that, under all its difficulties, the country had not been irrecoverably depressed—that in fact its resources had accumulated, and that the largest loans and most extensive expenditure had only deranged, and could not destroy, the financial means of the nation.

He was unwilling in the present stage to trouble the committee by entering into particulars, but he trusted he bad proved that the present state of the public credit rendered it much more expedient to raise the supplies of the year by a tax than by a loan, and he thought it would be easy to prove that no other tax could raise the large sum required with so little pressure as the property tax. Among the many opinions to which he had listened, he had hardly ever heard the general equality and equity of the principle of the property tax denied—[Hear, hear! from the opposition side]—he meant compared with the circumstances of the individual and the weight of other taxes; those upon articles of consumption bore with a very unequal pressure, not being in proportion to the resources, but to the expenditure of the individual, which a thousand circumstances might affect. In the course of the last session, with a view to provide a substitute for the tax in question, he had suggested the adoption of various others. To the nature of them he need not now refer, but he was willing to submit the property tax to be tried by that criterion. Those substitutes were selected by him after the fullest consideration, and such parts of them as appeared least liable to objection had been sanctioned by parliament, and pledged to supply the charge of the loan; and the general sentiment in the House and the country seemed to be, that the remaining parts, inadequate as they would be to replace the property tax would be much more burthensome and injurious than the impost they were chosen to succeed. Previous to the meeting of parliament, he had received many suggestions from different quarters as to the modes of regulating parts of this measure, and among them there certainly was shown a disposition to exempt from the operation of the bill all profits derived from industry. He was ready to allow, that could this object be fairly accomplished, some advantages might result; but, in the first place, the landed interest would then have a right to complain that the whole mass of commercial property was exempted from all payment. The committee was also aware, that a question of delicacy existed with respect to money in the funds, and it had been uniformly contended by Mr. Pitt, that that species of property could not justly be subjected to taxation, if all other sources of emolument were not also rendered liable. Then, indeed, a real question of a breach of public faith would arise, for in every loan act a distinct clause was inserted, providing that the dividend of the loan should never be subject to taxation.

If it were the pleasure of the House to entertain the bill in the first instance, he thought that means might be found in its progress to remove the major part of the objections to it. That portion of the tax raised upon money in the funds, deducted by the officers appointed to pay dividends, was the most perfect machine that could be devised: neither more nor less than the fair amount was retained, without the possibility of evasion or overcharge. He admitted that in that part of the measure which related to incomes derived from industry, there were considerable defects; the machine here lost its simplicity and its facility. This part of the system divided itself chiefly into two great branches, distinguished in the act by schedules B. and D., the first referring to so much of the landed property as respected the immediate interest of the actual occupier of the soil, and the last to the commercial interest. Under the present peculiar circumstances of the agricultural tenants, it could not be denied that they were entitled to great relief, of which he had spoken on a former night, and the modifications then noticed, he believed, had given general satisfaction, as being ade- quate to the object. He scarcely thought it necessary to re-state what he had then said: the committee was aware that the profits of the tenant had hitherto been calculated at three-fourths of the rent he paid; under the new bill these profits were only to be estimated at one-third of the rent, which, besides being a great immediate reduction, would also operate much in favour of the tenantry of the country, by bringing them within the classes entitled to abatements. The accounts upon the table showed, according to the last assessment, that the number of the tenants of land entitled to total exemption, then only amounted to 114,000, but by the proposed modification the number would be increased to 527,000: those entitled to abated rates of tax amounted to 400,000, and their number would in future be reduced to 53,000, the whole of the remainder passing into the class, totally exempted, and 42,000 tenants, who hitherto had not been permitted to make any abatement, holding farms of the yearly rent of 450l. would hereafter be only 6,000. Besides this relief, it was his intention to propose a diminution of the tax upon horses employed in agriculture: if the property tax should pass, he should suggest that only 7s. 6d. should be paid for each horse, and that all farmers occupying land of a less annual rent than 100?. should not be required to contribute at all, to that tax. This alteration would be a most important advantage to the western counties and to Wales. As to schedule D. he confessed that he had not been able to discover any complete remedy for the complaints of persons included in it. It must however be observed, that the same grievances that affected the tenant did not operate against the tradesman; for the tenant of land was not charged upon any return made by himself, but upon an assumed profit calculated by the amount of the rent; therefore an increase of rent, though it reduced his emoluments, compelled him to pay a heavier contribution to the state. With respect to him, therefore, it was the wish of the supporters of this measure to afford as much relief as was consistent with the nature of the case; and it was intended to give the commissioners some additional powers, to enable them to make a fair allowance in case of unexpected and extraordinary losses on the part of the farmer. The merchant on the other hand, could never be assessed but according to the amount of his own return, and any defi- ciency in his income could be stated in his return of the succeeding year. In order, however, to obviate some of the objections on this part of the question, a clause would be introduced into the new bill, under which an individual in trade might be charged according to his estimated profits of the last year; so that he would not be called upon to make a fresh return, but might pay the five per cent. upon a sum previously stated. If the merchant submitted to this charge, of course no further inquiry would be necessary; and it was consequently in his power, by the payment of the sum he contributed last year, to avoid any painful and inconvenient disclosure [Hear, hear! from the Opposition side]. Undoubtedly, many cases might occur where the profits had diminished, and then fresh returns would be deemed necessary, if the party wished to avail himself of the opportunity of diminishing his payment; but if they had increased, no addition would be made to the assessment, unless on a voluntary statement. It would therefore be enacted, that every person in trade not laying an appeal within a fixed period, should be charged to the amount of his previous return; if an appeal were laid, his affairs must necessarily be subjected to a new examination [Hear!]. The regulations under which this inquiry would be conducted, he hoped would weaken the strenuous opposition by gentlemen on the other side of the House, for it would be proposed to revive the clause of 1803, which gave the trader the liberty of being charged by referees of his own nomination; if, however, he preferred to make his return to the commissioners, the investigation should not be made as at present by all the commissioners, but only by one of them, to be selected by ballot, or any other impartial mode, assisted by the clerk; they should receive the explanation of the party appealing, being themselves distinctly sworn to secrecy, and to destroy all memoranda or other documents that might lead to an exposure of the affairs of the merchant. The tribunal would thus consist of only two persons, and the report of the commissioner so chosen should be final.

With these further, and in his opinion very material improvements, he hoped that the House would not only entertain the proposition in the first instance, but, with such other amendments as its wisdom might suggest, would sanction its adop- tion. It might be proper to mention again what had fallen from him on a former night; namely, that in order to give satisfaction to the public, and to set all hearts at rest as to the continuance of the tax, the time of its duration should be stated in the preamble, with the addition that it was continued only for the purpose of defraying the extraordinary charges occasioned by the war in the first years of peace. The fact of the existence of those charges, he apprehended, could not now be a matter of discussion, the estimates on the table communicating the details; it there appeared, that eight or nine millions would be required for the service of the present year, and four or five for the service of the next. [Mr. Tierney asked across the table for some of the items of charge]. The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, that it would be difficult for him to state the particular articles with their amounts. One charge was for repairs of the navy, which would be extensive, not only during the next, but several succeeding years: there were, besides, considerable naval expenses of other kinds. A large sum was devoted to the ordnance, and others to various military departments. If the opinion of any gentleman should depend merely upon the question whether twelve millions were necessary beyond the amount of the peace establishment, he could undertake, in a very short time, to satisfy him upon that point. To raise this sum was the object of the property tax, and he earnestly recommended it to the House as a measure of urgent importance. He had been most anxious to render the burthen as light as possible, by the introduction of such practicable modifications as had occurred to him; and he should be happy to adopt others at the suggestion of hon. gentlemen on either side. of the House, if they did not diminish the amount to be produced by weakening the powers of the measure. The passing of this bill would facilitate most materially the operations of the whole financial machine of the country: while the property tax was affording a temporary supply to a temporary want, that machine, of late years much disorganized and complicated, might be put into a state of repair and activity which would facilitate the whole proceedings of the nation: with the property tax, the money market would be relieved, and he anticipated a certain, if not a rapid improvement in the public pecuniary concerns; without it, the people would be heavily burthened in other ways, and he could foresee nothing but a long succession of difficulties and embarrassments [Hear, hear!].

Upon this point, it was not necessary for him to enlarge, since prospects far more gloomy than any he was accustomed to paint could be drawn by gentlemen on the opposite side of the House. Some persons had required that after the struggle, a breathing time should be allowed to the country—he only asked a breathing time to public credit, which was, in truth, almost the same thing. Although, during the last three years, a burthen of 100 millions had been thrown upon the money market by repeated loans, yet he congratulated the House, that it had been accompanied by no increase of taxation. That system he hoped to see continued, and he called upon the House to continue a tax calculated to raise little more than the amount of public burthens which had been saved during the two last years. By the operation of the plan of finance of 1813, the public had been spared the weight of nearly nine millions of permanent taxes, yet the sinking fund had still been preserved effectual for all purposes; it could not, however, at present, sustain any greater pressure, and a loan, he feared, would be attended with most detrimental consequences, more especially to the efficacy of the sinking fund; among the various plans of the hon. baronet (Sir James Shaw) that which proposed a still further diminution of the sinking fund was the least eligible; but with respect to them, all the committee would be aware that whether the money were borrowed in the market, or taken from the sinking fund, the effect of the operation was nearly the same. The politial and military glory of Great Britain had been carried to its utmost height, but it had been attended by a pressure upon her finances from which they could not be relieved without a vigorous exertion. It was true that we had gained a happy and secure peace, but 'we ought not to be in too great haste to enjoy its advantages: precipitation might be ruinous, while a wholesome restraint, a short delay, would enable us to render our blessings substantial and permanent. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving a resolution for the continuance of the tax on landed property at the rate of 5 per cent., being the first of a string of Resolutions which he intended to propose for carrying into effect the different modi- fications he had explained to the committee.

opposed the motion. He said, that after all he had heard from the right hon. gentleman, his opinion with respect to the tax had not been altered in any one particular. He considered the property tax as a war tax only, and therefore, one which ought to be discontinued In time of peace. So long as its inquisitorial and oppressive nature remained, so long should it meet with opposition from him.

Stated, that the consideration of this tax had long occupied his attention: he had, however, not found an opportunity of addressing the House before, and wished now to deliver his sentiments on the subject. Whether in war or in peace, he had on all occasions denied his assent to this tax: and he thought the objections against it so general, as to apply to all times and all situations. Those objections were not directed against the amount alone, but against the very principle of the tax. As far as the commercial world was concerned, the great evil of the tax consisted in that inquisitorial visiting which laid open to the world, with the most ruinous effect, the exact situation of every man's affairs, however he might wish for concealment. And another important objection, hitherto little dwelt on, was the unfair manner in which incomes arising from professions were rendered subject to this tax. As to commercial men, the disquiet they must experience at having their concerns laid open to the world would be very little alleviated by any of the expedients or modifications now suggested by the right hon. gentleman opposite. It was probable that a large proportion of the commercial interest must now be liable to heavy losses; and it followed that a trader must either pay five per cent. on a supposed profit, or go to the commissioner and confess his loss: rather than do this, numbers would pay the tax, so that it would be a tax, not on income, but on loss. It appeared that 11,000 surcharges had been made in the city of London alone during the course of the last year. It might be said, that this afforded in some degree a presumption of commercial prosperity, but he thought that no such inference could. be drawn. Of these 11,000 surcharges, 3,000 were set aside on appeal, after a critical examination into the appellant's circumstances. This had made him a declared enemy to the tax in every shape. Seven thousand out of the 11,000 did not appeal; they probably thought it a less evil to submit to the imposition, than to expose the situation of their affairs. But, suppose that these 7000 were surcharged justly, what a pestilential influence must the tax have produced on the morals of the country, when such a body had recourse to the most guilty evasions to avoid the assessment! The right hon. gentleman had been acting on the old and well known principle of "Divide et impera," for he had made concessions to the agricultural interest in the hopes of gaining their support to his cause. Mr. Smith, however, cautioned gentlemen to consider, not the partial bearings, but the whole effect of the tax; for if every man were to aid the introduction of it who was not himself immediately affected, we might very soon find the burthen effectually saddled on our backs. He would here, too, incidentally hint that if any members from the sister kingdom were forward in support of this tax, because it did not extend to Ireland, it might be prudent for them to consider whether members here would not soon wish to extend the tax to Ireland. At all events, there was no better mode of creating ill-will between the two countries, than bringing gentlemen from the other side of the channel for the purpose of fixing such an impost on this country. But, to revert to the tax itself, and to consider it according to the principles laid down by the most celebrated political economists—he would assert, that there was not one page of Adam Smith on the subject of taxation, from which a direct argument might not be drawn against this impost,—whether he speaks of capital, of the effect which the accumulation of it has on national prosperity, and the consequent evil arising from its diminution; whether he weighs the ill effect of the discontent excited by an injudicious impost, or expatiates on the evil of making the credit of an individual depend on the testimony of an officer of revenue. If Adam Smith's authority were good for any thing, it would show this tax to be in the highest degree unjust and impolitic. The right hon. gentleman had asserted, that it would be more inconvenient to raise the money required by means of a loan than by direct taxation. Mr. Smith said, he entirely disagreed with the right hon. gentleman on this point. If the money were drawn by a loan, that capital was advanced which was not imme- diately wanted; if it were raised by a tax, the money was taken indiscriminately, whether the payer wanted it or not: the tradesman who wanted the capital to carry on his business was obliged to pay into the coffers of the state, where it could be productive of no profit to him, instead of the money being advanced by an individual who could afford to lend it. But let the House consider the intolerable inquisition that attended the tax: Mr. Pitt, the year before he brought it forward, spoke of the tax on property as one not recognized in this country; till that time we had taxed only visible property; and nothing but the absolute necessities of the war could offer any extenuation for the inquisition with which this impost visited the most private transactions; but yet without this inquisition the tax would be wholly inefficient. In most taxes the payer was generally repaid with a profit: he advanced the tax on his goods, and was more than indemnified by the higher price which those goods consequently attained; but the income tax affected professions as well as trades, and the lawyer or physician gained no more than their guinea, though equally affected with others by the operation of the tax. It had been stated that the amount of the profits made by 90,000 individuals, who were assessed to the tax at the rate of from 50l to 100l. per annum each, was 7,000,000l. But, however large this sum might appear, the individuals in question formed the very poorest class of society; obliged to contribute to the parish rates, though frequently themselves more in need of assistance than any who received relief. He must therefore oppose the tax in every stage. He should conclude by observing, that Mr. Pitt's ability as a financier had been greatly over-rated. He, as a financier, resembled Buonaparté in war; it was not how, but what he was to raise: Buonaparté never considered how, but the number of men he wished to raise; and he raised them by a conscription. Now, the income tax was a conscription as vexatious and tyrannical upon property as the other was upon life and men. He was a truly great man who from small means could produce great effects; but no man had been more extravagant in his means than Mr. Pitt. Having said thus much, he forbore to enter into the detail of the tax, for this was not the proper time for doing it, and he hoped and believed that time would never arrive. The tax could never, by any detail, by any modification, be rendered palatable to individuals or beneficial to the public.

, amid loud cries of question, proceeded to defend the character of his departed friend, Mr. Pitt, from the attack that had been made upon it by the hon. gentleman who had just sat down. That hon. gentleman had denied Mr. Pitt's financial abilities, and, describing a test by which talents were to be tried, denied that by that test his departed friend could be considered as a great financier [Here an evident impatience was testified by the House, and cries of question were redoubled.] Mr. Rose continued. Shall an. attack be permitted on the character of an individual, and shall it not be permitted to his friends to offer any defence? He was willing to adopt the test of the hon. gentleman, and he was persuaded that Mr. Pitt's character would be established by the applicaton of it beyond the reach of question or dispute. The hon. gentleman had said, that great abilities were proved by the accomplishment of great undertakings, through great difficulties, and with small means. Let the House look at the first period of Mr. Pitt's administration, and considering the circumstances in. which it commenced, compare them with the state of the country after two years of his exertions and services, and there could not remain a shadow of doubt as to the greatness of his financial character. When he entered upon office at the end of the American war, he found public credit exceedingly depressed, the national resources in a state of great exhaustion, and the revenue of the country insufficient to defray the peace establishment, with the interest of the debt contracted in a long, extensive, and unfortunate struggle. He found it necessary to impose 950,000l. of new taxes; but by this addition, by economy, and by an improved collection of the revenue, he not only brought the annual income of the nation to meet the annual expenditure, but provided a million for the sinking fund, which he established in 1786. Before he came into office, the war expenditure exceeded the war revenue by three millions a year. In 1797 the funds had fallen, under the pressure of repeated loans, to 47 and a fraction. It was then, that Mr. Pitt resorted to the property tax to relieve them, and in January 1798 it was proposed. Its effect had answered his expectations, and the funds had recovered. What the hon. gentleman had stated concerning Mr. Pitt's opinion of the property tax was I founded in error, or at least was without authority. He had never called it a war tax, or declared that it could not be continued in peace. So much was his conduct opposed to such a supposition, that he had mortgaged it for 56 millions. Had the interest of this great sum not been provided for from another source by Mr. Addington, who succeeded Mr. Pitt, in 1802, it was calculated that the property tax could not have been disengaged or removed for nine years of peace. He allowed with an honourable alderman, the liberality of the bankers, merchants, and traders of London, in first suggesting this tax, and submitting to it with such cheerfulness; but he denied that there was any pledge given to abolish it at the end of the war. The right hon. gentleman proceeded to show the propriety and necessity of continuing this tax as proposed by the chancellor of the exchequer; but the noise was so great in the House, and the cries of question were so incessantly repeated, that what he said could not be distinctly collected in the gallery.

thought the property tax was a good tax, as the expense of collecting was small, and as it did not partake the bad quality of taxes on consumable articles, which raised the prices in a greater proportion than they were productive to the exchequer. He thought if the tax was taken off leather, malt, and other articles of that nature, and laid on property, the subject would be a gainer, even if the property tax were doubled.

supported the tax; he said he did not consider it as a peace tax, but as the means of paying a certain amount of debt, the consequence of the late war. He wished, however, to know whether there would be any provision by which landlords, if they received no rents from their tenants, would be exempted from the operation of the tax. If such a provision was made, he should warmly approve of the tax, because though the tax would operate indirectly on the poor, by depriving them of employ this was less oppressive than a tax directly on them. His majesty's minions [a laugh], he meant ministers [cries of Hear!] had proposed the tax for a limited time only, during which time they might revise the whole system of our taxation, and relieve the country from those taxes which bore most heavily on individuals. He agreed with the chancellor of the exchequer, as to the advantage which, in his luminous statement, he had professed would arise from the uninterrupted operation of the sinking fund, which could not fail to raise the price of stock. This would lower the interest of money, and the fundholders would be more ready to sell out and relieve the country bankers. The effect which it would thus have in raising the prices, would be of much greater advantage to the farmers, than the repeal of so small a tax could be attended with. For though a cow was only raised in price from 10 to 11l. this would amount on the stock of a farm of 400l. a year, to an increase of value of 1.50l. Under this conviction, he should vote for the tax, though he regretted it was against the sense of his constituents.

said, that he had in view a provision to relieve landlords who were deprived of their rent by the flight or insolvency of their tenants. He wished also that it should not be understood that because in his general statement he had not mentioned every provision which he had in contemplation, he was unwilling to listen to any thing in the way of modification, which might be suggested. He hoped the House would not come to a hasty decision on the question, without having the proposed bill in a compleat state before them [Cries of Question, question!].

having with some difficulty obtained a hearing, said he should not trespass long on the attention of the committee, as such anxiety prevailed for a coming to decision. In another state of the House he should have wished to go into details; but that seemed now quite impossible. The right hon. the treasurer of the navy (Mr. Rose) was a general panegyrist of all taxes and tax-gatherers— to answer him was quite superfluous. When the hon. member for Bristol (Mr. Hart Davis) rose, he had anticipated that he would find some good reasons for supporting the ministers and deserting his constituents. But from whence he had drawn the conclusion, that the cows of the people of Bristol would be raised by the operation of the tax from 10l. to 11l. each, it was out of the power of ingenuity to imagine. That hon. member had been lavish in his praise of the "luminous" statement of the chancellor of the exchequer. If he (Mr. B.) had thought that the statement of the chancellor of the exchequer had been any thing but a desperate plunge in default of all argument—and if it had made any impression on the committee, he, though he had not much opinion of his own ability, should have taken up some of the time of the House to refute it. But he should set the member for Bristol right as to one fact connected with that statement. The member for Bristol had supposed that the tax was to last only for two years. The chancellor of the exchequer had that night stated no such thing. Sometimes, indeed, the ministers held forth the promise of the tax being put an end to in two years, but when they felt a little stronger, no such promise was made. This promise was like the French constitution, which had been compared to an umbrella, which was held up by the king in bad weather only. It was now pretended that it was to be continued only for the payment of an uncertain sum, which seemed to be about 14 millions. Was it probable that the tax, pared down as it would be, with little left but its inquisitorial power and its inequality, would produce that sum in two years? It was improbable, as long as the ministers could show any tail of the war expense, that they would give it up. If they could get the tax once fixed in time of peace, they would gain their object, and not a member of that House would ever see an end of it. No one who had the least experience of the conduct of government, could fail to see, that instead of producing a redemption of the debt, it would produce wasteful establishments and extravagant expenditure. It could only be by ridding the country of the tax that ministers could be induced to practise any economy. A right hon. gentleman (Mr. Rose) had compared the distress of the country now to that of 1797; and had argued, that as the distress was removed by imposing the tax then, to impose the tax now would afford the same relief. But between the distress of 1797 and that of the present moment there was no analogy. At that time there was a poor exchequer and a rich country. Now the cast was the reverse—we had a rich exchequer and a poor country. The remedy now applied should be the reverse of that applied in 1797. Instead of imposing additional taxes to relieve the exchequer, the object should be to take off as much of the taxes as was .possible to relieve the country. Though the chancellor of the exchequer had repeated his story of the miraculous shower of gold, he (Mr. B.) bad never met with any man in the country who thought it of great advantage to himself, that money should be taken out of his pocket, and then lent him back. The fact was, the farmers did not want to borrow money—they wanted a market. As to a loan, he should say a few words. The chancellor of the exchequer had said it was the great loans had depressed the stocks. Now it was not the fact that the stocks were very much depressed; for they did not afford more than five per cent. to purchasers, and were gradually rising. Whatever depression there was, had been occasioned by the shrinking of the property of the country. Every man felt such distress or witnessed such distress, that he withdrew his money from the funds for the use of himself, or to lend to his neighbour. What effect, he would ask, could a loan of nine millions have, which perhaps would be melted down in a week into the general transactions of the country? The chancellor of the exchequer had alluded to him (Mr. B.) and the members from the city, and had taken the opportunity of mixing up some little personalities with the question. But he would ask, whether he or any man had proposed an immediate loan? The best measure would be to raise the sum required by exchequer bills, which might be funded at some future time. What the chancellor of the exchequer had not done was to state the financial necessity of the measure. There was no financial necessity for the measure. If all that was wanted was ten millions, no one could say that this was the proper time for laying on a tax to relieve the country two years hence. This was the year when relaxation of taxation was most peculiarly required. It would only be necessary to take one million from the sinking fund to pay the interest of that sum, and a sinking fund of 5 per cent. for its reduction, which would then take place in 12 years. And was it to prevent the taking a million from the sinking fund that the House should turn a deaf ear to the distresses of the country, and ruin their character in the opinion of their constituents? It would be for gentlemen to consider, whether the subtracting of one million was such an inroad on the sinking fund, that it would be preferable to adopt the principle of an income tax in time of peace.

said, that at that late hour of the night, he should not have trespassed upon the attention of the committee, did he not feel that he owed it to himself, to the country, and to the government of which he formed a part, to state the grounds upon which he conceived the present measure ought to be supported. Nothing but an imperious sense of duty could have induced his majesty's ministers to persist in their endeavours to obtain the sanction of parliament for the renewal of the property tax, in opposition to that national reluctance which the people might be supposed to feel at the continuance of a heavy burthen after the termination of the war; more especially when there was in addition a heavy pressure occasioned by distresses arising from particular but temporary causes. But he was sure, at the same time, that the government would be turning its back upon those distresses, if it were to shrink from the discharge of that duty which the necessity of the case imposed upon it. He begged to be understood, in the first instance, as speaking with all due deference of the petitions which had been presented to that House upon the subject; but when he considered what ought to be the influence of those petitions, no one would say that the deliberative faculties of parliament ought to be so limited or paralysed by them, that the legislature of the country was to look to the sentiments entertained beyond the walls of that House for the rule and guide of the course it had to pursue. He was by no means disposed to disparage the character and weight of such opinions; but, at the same time, .he was far from thinking that the good sense which always distinguished the people of England had forsaken them on the present occasion, or that they were disposed to turn their backs upon that great financial system which had hitherto carried them through all their difficulties and dangers. If, however, they shrunk from the present effort, they would unquestionably renounce that profound and salutary policy, to which alone they were indebted for the means of so gloriously continuing the late struggle to its final and memorable issue.

With respect to the various matters contained in the different petitions presented, many of the topics embraced in them were quite foreign from the question of the property tax; and he was quite sure if some of them were followed up by concession on the part of parliament, they would shake the security of the empire to its foundation. The property tax was made the ostensible ground for calling meetings together; but when those meetings were obtained, the property tax formed only a single object in the views of the petitioners, while others of a far different nature were mingled with it. He would put an instance in point, which must be fresh in the recollection of gentlemen on the other side of the House. An hon. and learned gentleman had attended a public meeting convened in Westminster for the purpose of petitioning parliament on the subject. But when that hon. and learned gentleman, accompanied by some of his friends, appeared, they could not obtain even a hearing, because, in fact, the meeting was called for purposes totally distinct from the consideration of the property tax. With respect, however, to the petitions generally, there was a great mass of them, and many of a most respectable description. But when he looked at them in the aggregate, and asked himself whether they could be considered as containing the sentiments of the whole people of Great Britain, he was compelled to give his negative to such a proposition. In fact, one-fourth of the counties of great Britain had not petitioned at all. There was not more than nineteen petitions from counties, out of nearly ninety of which Great Britain was composed; and without going into the particular history of those petitions from the different counties, he was justified in affirming, that a great diversity of sentiment prevailed in most of the counties. Then, as to the commercial towns, it was certainly a tax of a very painful nature to them; but he was quite satisfied that the opinion of the commercial body would be much altered when they knew of the modifications which it was intended to introduce into the tax. He wished to impress upon the attention of the House, that full one-third of the whole number of petitions presented, came from two counties only, Devonshire and Middlesex; a circumstance which was explained by the mode of obtaining them in separate parishes. The aggregate amount of petitions was about 400, and 130 came from those two counties. Now, when these circumstances came to be considered, and when it was known that Liverpool and Manchester, and others of the greatest commercial towns in the kingdom were divided upon the subject, and also when it was known how favourably every proposition for a repeal of taxes was sure to be received, he would put it to the House whether the petitions ought to be fairly considered as speaking the unbiassed and collected sense of the people of Great Britain. It should likewise be remembered, the course pursued by gentlemen on the other side of the House, and that sort of influence (just and proper influence he admitted) which persons of great property and high station could always exercise; together with the latitude which they gave themselves in uniformly representing that the country could do altogether without the tax. Above all, it should never be forgotten, that the most unqualified clamour was excited, as he should always be prepared to call it, in the endeavour which was made to establish a deliberate breach of faith on the part of parliament towards the people of England.— When he recollected all those combined circumstances, instead of being astonished that there were so many petitions, he freely owned that his greatest astonishment was to find so few; and he was satisfied, from that very circumstance, that there was a feeling prevailed throughout the country, which would not suffer its confidence to be withdrawn from the government—[Hear, hear!].

With regard to the question of public faith said to be pledged, that part of the subject had been so ably argued by his right hon. friend, that he should not think it necessary to dwell much upon it. He certainly did not mean to say that there was not a strong expectation throughout the country, that the property tax would be remitted upon the termination of the war; and if the government could have remitted it, consistently with what they conceived to be the public interest, they would have been bound to do so. But he would maintain, that it was never in the contemplation of any parliament, when they sanctioned the imposition of that tax, to say, that its continuance in a time of peace should not, under any possible circumstance, be proposed. To argue the question, therefore, as a positive breach of faith on the part of the legislature, was an attempt at delusion unexampled in the history of the country. His right hon. friend, now no more (Mr. Pitt) had actually mortgaged the property tax, during a time of peace, for nine years; and if lord Sidmouth did not continue that mortgage, it was because the small loans which were required in the beginning of the war rendered it unnecessary. He was prepared, however, to af- firm again, that it was the deliberate finance plan of lord Henry Petty to mortgage the tax in time of peace. He was not now arguing as to intentions; the question was, whether the plan of lord Henry Petty did not, in its necessary and unavoidable progress, effect that end. It was not to be supposed that any man of common sense would create a specific plan, and would publish finance tables, for the purpose of showing in what particular year that precise effect would take place, which he admitted was a breach of faith between the parliament and the country. Then as to the intention of releasing the tax, at the close of the war, his right hon. friend had stated, that with all the means upon which that administration calculated for such release, still a portion of the tax would inevitably remain pledged. Why, in fact, did lord Henry Petty put the property tax into his tables, if it was not in contemplation to mortgage it? And what were the assignable means for releasing that mortgage? The excesses upon the sinking fund. What was the alternative, if there should be no excesses adequate to that purpose? To have only six millions of clear revenue with which to commence a peace establishment. Besides, what security was there that his successors in office would be disposed to apply all those excesses to the release of the property tax? He would still maintain, however, that it was a delusion to argue that they who thus put the property tax into the finance tables, were guilty of any breach of faith. They did not indeed require any defence in his opinion, for he had never imputed any charge to them; he had never imputed to them the intention of keeping the war taxes mortgaged if they could avoid it. But he did think, that by giving such assurances as they held out to the country, they ran the risk of disappointing the expectations they excited. The hon. member who spoke last had taken some pains to create an impression in the House, as if his right hon. friend had held a vague and indistinct language as to the purpose for which the tax was now wanted; and that if he succeeded in obtaining its renewal, it would be made a permanent peace tax, instead of being applied to certain expenses of the war yet unliquidated. But he would put it to the candour and the recollection of the House, whether his right hon. friend did not explicitly state that government looked to the property tax for the extinc- tion of remaining war expenses, which being accomplished the tax was to cease.

He would now advert to the degree of relief which the country ought to expect from ministers, and which parliament ought to permit ministers to grant. In order to place the subject distinctly before the House, he would shortly state, in round numbers, what was the financial condition of the country, reverting first to the expenditure and charge. The expense for the present year was calculated at about thirty millions sterling. The country, however, had good grounds to hope that next year that expense would be diminished one third, reducing the whole expenditure to twenty millions. He stated the sums in round numbers, because they would answer all the purposes of argument, and he was sure the House would not expect him, at that moment, to go into minute and elaborate calculations. And while upon that branch of the subject it would be well to observe, that all the difference between ministers and gentlemen on the other side of the House, with respect to economy and retrenchment, did not involve a greater sum than two millions. If every plan of reduction and saving which they had suggested were carried to its full extent, it would not produce a saving to a greater amount than what he had stated. Whether, therefore, the argument went upon a peace expenditure of twenty or of eighteen millions, in reference to future years, it did not make any essential alteration in the great principle which ought to guide their financial operations. Now, what was the clear revenue of the country? The amount of taxes, and the surplus of the consolidated fund, did not in round numbers exceed six millions. He meant nett revenue. Instead, therefore, of having the war taxes mortgaged and bound up for a number of years, they came to the consideration of their financial condition, after a protracted and expensive war, with a clear, unincumbered revenue of six millions a year; to which were to be added the war taxes, and the property tax, making altogether twenty-eight millions. He was then to be understood as speaking of the property tax at ten per cent. The House would next consider what were the charges which the revenue had to meet, and what were the means which it had of meeting them. There was a revenue of twenty-eight millions applicable to an expenditure of thirty millions, for the present year; and for future years, an expenditure of twenty millions. Looking to the latter amount, what was the extent of relief proposed to be granted to the country? Eight millions were taken off at once; seven millions by the reduction of the property tax to one half, and one million by the reduction of various agricultural taxes. That was the amount of what would be remitted in the very first year, being very nearly one-third of the whole revenue of the state; and it was to be remembered, that it was only by. loans from the bank, and by the surplus of the grants of last year, that they were enabled to afford that relief. As to any further extent of relief, he would put it to the House and the country, whether more could fairly be expected. If the property tax were given up, it should be recollected that the country must borrow twelve millions in lieu of it, not six millions, as they could not put out of the calculation the loan from the bank. For his own part he must .declare, that if the country could so far forget its own best interests as to place a peace establishment of eighteen millions upon a revenue of only nine millions, all those great principles of finance would be at once abandoned, which had hitherto been considered as essential to the preservation of the state. They would remain stationary in their debts, without any gradual reduction of them, and they would precipitate themselves into all the dangers that inevitably result from an imperfect system of finance. As to a relief from the sinking fund, about which so much had been said, gentlemen talked of that fund as if it had arrived at a magnitude which would justify them in dismissing all further fears concerning it, and that they might put their hands upon the sacred deposit without scruple. He hoped, however, they would allow him to suggest to their consideration what was the actual amount of that fund at the present moment, exclusively of the portion which belonged to Ireland. The amount of the fund did not exceed 11,200,000l., and if any application of it were meant to the current exigencies of the government, the country would be in the situation of having a debt of about 700 millions, towards the reduction of which no progress would be made in a time of peace. He therefore did most solemnly entreat and conjure the House, that before they resolved to gain relief to the country, they would recollect the great principles of finance upon which the greatness and prosperity of the empire rested; and that they would not press the adoption of a system which, however specious and delusive at the moment, was one for which the country itself, he was sure, would not thank them hereafter. It was upon that ground he felt himself called upon, by every sense of duty which he owed to himself, to parliament, and to the nation, to press the present measure, not merely as expedient, but as absolutely necessary for the safety and well-being of the state. Unless a stimulus was given to the public funds, it would be impossible to keep every branch of industry throughout the country from stagnating. He wished the House to recollect, that if they did not give the government that aid, they must contract debts to the amount of twelve millions for the present year. With respect to future years, the amount might vary. Next year they would be compelled to make a loan of from six to eight millions, and if they made loans in time of peace so near the amount of the sinking fund, they would be abandoning all those great principles of finance which had hitherto sustained the credit of the country. He would put to the good sense of the country, to the truly British spirit which animated the people, whether they would now shrink from the exertion which was necessary for their own preservation; whether they would, in fact, be so infatuated as to turn their backs upon themselves?—[Hear, hear!]. He trusted their ultimate decision would be favourable to those great principles of financial calculation to which he had already alluded; and though an impression might prevail, at the moment, unfavourable to the government, he had no doubt the nation would finally do justice to a line of policy dictated by a sacred sense of duty, and that they would co-operate in the promotion of a measure necessary to secure the stability, the safety, and the lusting prosperity of the whole empire.

rose, amid loud cries of chair, chair, and question, question, to reply to the, personal insinuations of the noble lord, with respect to a transaction in which he was concerned. The fact was, he went to the Westminster meeting merely as a spectator, and in no other capacity, for he had no right to address that meeting, having no vote for Westminster, nor being a housekeeper in that city. He left the meeting before one single observation was made, either upon himself, or any of his noble and honourable friends, and not in consequence of such observations, as seemed to be the opinion of the noble lord. The assertion was therefore on a par with that of the noble lord, that only 19 out of the 90 counties (thus doubling the number of the counties in England) had petitioned. With respect to the appeal attempted by the noble lord to divert the attention of the independent part of the House, those who were unconnected with any party, it would fail as it deserved. For neither he, nor those independent men cared what pledges Mr. Pitt, lord Grenville, or lord Henry Petty, might have given and forfeited; they looked at the pledge recorded in the journals of the House. Instead of having recourse to the constant recrimination of parties, he should apply to those records, and terminate his appeal by reading the pledge which they contained, in the 247th section of that act. He then read from the journals of the House the following clause in the Property Tax Act: "Be it enacted, that this Act shall commence and take effect from the 5th of April, 1806, and that the said Act and the duties thereof shall continue in force during the present war, and until the 6th of April next after the definitive signature of a treaty of peace, and no longer." [Shouts of Hear, hear, hear! and repeated cries of Question, question!].

conceived it fair to conclude, that ministers were actuated by what they considered a strong sense of duty, in persevering in a measure so unpopular. Yet, after the concession of his noble friend, that a great feeling of expectation had been entertained by the country that the tax would expire with the war, he thought its renewal would be harsh under any circumstances. But, under what circumstances was it proposed, when it was rather expected that a bonus would be given to the people? His noble friend had given a tremendous view of the subject. If he understood him rightly, he had shown that at the end of two years the necessity for the continuance of the tax would be as strong as it was now said to be. He had therefore proved too much. He had proved that the country would never obtain the relief which it ought to receive, and that the only means of gaining it, was the curtailment of her expenditure, [Repeated shouts of Hear, bear, hear, for several minutes.] The question was, which should be relieved, the money market, or the people? When the people of England should know the amount thus imposed on them, they would think that the House had been carried away by speculations on general principles, and had not felt for but contemned those distresses, which were very great indeed, and were increased, as his noble friend himself had said, by the confident expectation of relief—an expectation which would have been sacrificed to the wish of assisting the money market. [Here the shouts of Hear! hear! were so frequent, and the anxiety of the House to divide, so tumultuous, that little more became audible in the gallery, but by the thundering peal which attended the close of the hon. member's speech, it was understood that he had once more expressed his determination to vote against the tax.]

As soon as the numbers were announced in the House, a loud cheering took place, which continued for several minutes. Similar exultation was manifested by the crowd of strangers in the lobby and the avenues of the House.