said, that seeing the secretary of the treasury in his place, he thought proper to put to him a question which he had no doubt the hon. gentleman would be able to answer to the satisfaction of the House and the country; namely, whether as the property tax was to be discontinued, it was meant to get rid of all the odious machinery of that odious tax, and especially of the nine or ten inspectors of taxes, by whom the people were afflicted under the pressure of that tax.

was not perfectly prepared to give an answer to the question, but since the property tax was not to be renewed, he was sure it was not the intention of ministers to keep up unnecessarily any part of its machinery.

rose, and expressed his intention of opposing the measure. At the present period, when the greatest distress prevailed all over the country, the House ought to be very careful how they imposed additional burthens on the people, by whom the coroners' salaries were paid. It did not appear, from the late contest for the situation of coroner of the county of Middlesex, that there was any want of proper persons to fill the office, even at the present salary. He believed that more respectable persons did not exist than those who sought for this situation. They were chiefly attorneys, men of eminence, in their profession; and so they ought to be; for, in many cases, great attention was necessary in the investigation of matters that came before the jury, and the coroner ought to be competent to direct them on those points. One of the great objects of those who aimed at the situation of coroner was, to get that fame and notoriety in the country, which were so necessary for men practising the law. The hon. gentleman then observed, that the office of coroner was one of very great, importance. The coroner represented the king, and should, he conceived, be paid in some other manner, than out of the country rates. In conclusion, he moved, "That the bill be committed this day six months."

reminded the hon. gentleman that the question before the House was, "That this bill be committed," which must be met by a direct negative, and not by an amendment, as to the time when that proceeding should take place.

differed very much from the hon. gentleman opposite. Although a contest of considerable magnitude had lately taken place in the county of Middlesex, for the situation of coroner, it should be recollected that a very great difference existed between the emoluments of the coroner for Middlesex, and those derived by individuals in remote counties. The coroner for Middlesex had not any great distance to travel, and the inquests were so numerous, that attending to them was almost sufficient to occupy all his time. In the remote counties, however, the situation of coroner was not filled by persons of sufficient respectability. He knew instances where apothecaries and schoolmasters served as coroners, and the consequence was, that sufficient attention was not paid to the duties of the office. The coroner was under the necessity of attending the assizes; and thus very often when that officer lived thirty or forty miles from the county town, he was obliged to appear there, his expenses being paid by himself, and no remuneration whatever granted to him. In consequence of the office being thus undervalued, he had heard of instances where paupers, and others who had no friends or relations to look minutely into the causes of their death, had something like a coroner's inquest held on them, which was conducted rather as a mere matter of course, than as an inquiry set on foot for a grave and important purpose. By granting to the coroner a proper remuneration, such occurrences would be avoided; since they would be sure of having respectable candidates for the office.

said, the remuneration at present given to the coroner was by no means adequate. The office was one that required the abilities of persons of education, and certainly no man of liberal education would undertake to fill it for the paltry emolument of 20s. for each inquest, having, perhaps, to ride 20 or 30 miles to the place where it was to be held. Besides, the coroner often lost much time, for which he did not receive any additional recompense. Thus, when he came to the appointed place, he might find the constable negligent in his duty, and the jury, in consequence, not summoned. By this means, a delay of two or three days might arise, and for this he received no more than 20s. Sixty-five years ago, the coroner was allowed 9d. per mile for travelling; at that time posting was about 6d. or 7d. a mile. They received no more now, when posting was so much increased in price. An hon. gentleman observed, that the coroner was the representative of the king, and yet, when he refused to increase his remuneration he seemed to say, that he ought not to be suffered to travel in a post-chaise. But, surely, if, in the exercise of his functions, he represented the monarch, the least mark of respect that could be shown to him was the affording him the means of making his necessary journeys in a post-chaise. The charge was certainly made on the country rates; but the law had applied a remedy, where it was found burthensome; and it was the fault of the country, if it were not made use of where the necessity existed. In Lancashire it was acted on; and in the county of Surrey, notice had been given that the question would be brought under consideration at the next quarter sessions. But what, he would ask, was the burthen? it would not, in any one instance, amount to more than five farthings in the pound. This was a very trifling remuneration, when placed in competition with the good effects that would be produced by inciting respectable persons to fill the office.

was aware, that the House could not be too cautious in laying additional burthens on the people at the present moment: but the utmost extent of the burthen now required to be imposed was about five or six shillings on each parish. That could never be considered an. important sum to the inhabitants of any county, particularly when they reflected that, by paying it, they were pretty sure of having a respectable and intelligent coroner. To prove that this valuable officer was at present inadequately rewarded, the hon. baronet adverted to a case, which occurred not far from London, where the coroner was obliged to attend three days and nights to investigate the circumstances of an atrocious murder. By his indefatigable exertions, the murderers were traced out; but still for three days anxious attendance, he received no more than 20s. and 9d. per mile for his travelling. This rate was settled by the 25th Geo. 2nd upwards of sixty years ago, and was wholly disproportioned to the necessity of the case. Those gentlemen had frequently 40 or 50 miles to ride; sometimes amongst mountains, and in the midst of snow, where they often ran the risk of being lost; and surely it could not be contended, that the pittance they received was a fair remuneration for such labour. If he conceived that the proposed increase would bear hard on the agricultural interest, he would not vote for it. But, feeling that it would not, and knowing the importance and utility of the office (one of the most ancient that was known in the country) it should receive his support.

said, the grand jury of the county of Norfolk had often lamented, that they had not power to grant to the coroner a greater allowance than was warranted by act of parliament. On inquiry, it would be found that something was due to the individuals who filled this important office, which the legislature ought to see discharged.

said, as an hon. gentleman had stated, that additional allowances were made to the coroner, in the county of Lancashire, he felt it his duty to observe, that he knew of no such circumstance.

explained. What he said was, not that an additional allowance was granted to the coroner, in Lancashire —but that the freeholders of that county had acted on the provisions of the bill for equalizing the county rates.

expressed his opinion, that the coroner was, in many instances, not even paid his expenses. The bill, he conceived, ought to go to a committee.

The motion for the committal of the bill was then carried without a division.

observed, that it must be the anxious wish of every member of that House, and of every man in the country, to practise the most rigid economy, and he trusted that the government, acting upon that principle, would do every thing in its power to make reductions to the utmost possible extent.

rose to express his satisfaction that the city of London were acquainted with that which most gentlemen in that House knew, the necessity of every retrenchment in the public expenditure which could be made. It must have struck that House and the public, that hitherto the only progress they had made was in putting an end to two very odious and injurious taxes: but on the subject of expense they had done as yet very little. Their duty now, however, was, to proceed upon that subject, and he was sure it would be unnecessary to remind the House, that although an end had been put to those taxes, yet, unless they curtailed the expenses of the country, other taxes must be put on in their place.

wished to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer where the fund was, from which he could raise seventeen millions for the peace establishment? Was he to procure it from the landed, the commercial, or the manufacturing interest? He was sure it could not be raised from any one of them. By the conduct of ministers, the country was placed in a dilemma, was plunged into a state of distress, out of which she could not be extricated, unless by the adoption of a system of the most rigid economy.

bore testimony to the respectability of the court of common council which had agreed to the petition. With the exception of a few verbal amendments, and some slight difference of opinion on minor points, the petition was unanimously acceded to.

The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

moved that the paper before the House, respecting the late appointment of sir T. Thomson, should be printed. In order to bring this subject before the House, he gave notice, that on an early day he should move for a new writ for Rochester. While on his legs, he wished to ask the noble lord opposite if fresh estimates were to be made on the several heads of expenditure, in the room of those which had been withdrawn?

said, the object of his noble friend (lord Palmerston) in withdrawing the estimates, was to take an opportunity of showing, in connexion, the amount of the reductions to be made in, the course of the present year. In some of the debates which had taken place, he (lord Castlereagh) had deprecated the dispositions shown by some of the gentlemen opposite to consider the estimates as a part of the permanent peace establishment, or even to consider the expense on them, as that which was to continue throughout the present year. It was the wish of government to make immediately all the reductions which could be safely effected in the first instance, as it was their hope to bring forward estimates materially different in point of expense in a future year. But in consequence of the disposition which had been manifested to argue on the estimates, as if the expense on them were to continue through the whole of the present year, his noble friend had wished to withdraw them, in order to show them the various reductions that would be made before the year expired. It was intended to let the House see (as nearly as this could be done) what would be the expense of the end of the year, as well as that of the beginning. To accomplish such a task with all the vigilance that could possibly be exerted, it was obvious the inquiry necessary must take up some considerable time. A part of the reductions contemplated, from local circumstances could not be completed at the commencement of the year. The object of his noble friend, he wished it to be understood, was, to show the House what changes had been made, what were now making, and what would be made in the course of the present year. The House would be enabled to see how long some of the expenses which appeared on the estimates would continue. It would be seen what were to remain for three or six months, or what for a longer period. In this respect the estimates to be produced would go further than those which had been already before the House.

said, he was perfectly satisfied with the explanation of the noble lord, but at the same time, he could not help observing, that the mode now pursued was entirely different from that adopted at every former peace, either in 1763, 1783, or 1802. It had uniformly been the practice for parliament to be made acquainted with those details in the very first moment of entering upon them. Estimates were submitted to that House, for the first three months, and a second, and a third estimate was afterwards prepared, which thus showed the progress of the diminution in them. He wished, however, to inquire of the noble lord, whether he apprehended there would be any inconvenience, in framing this new document, to give the number of staff officers, on foreign stations, as well as on the home station? It was impossible when one lumping sum was voted for the staff generally, to be able to scrutinize into the details. If there were no objection to that information being given, he would afterwards move for a return of the number of staff officers, and officers of hospitals, serving on foreign stations, in 1792, in order that they might be enabled to form the same comparison upon that, as upon the home staff, between the two periods.

hoped the hon. gentleman would postpone his motion for the present, till his noble friend had brought forward his estimates, when he would take an opportunity of describing the reductions to be made on the foreign staff in the course of the present year; and he did not foresee any objection on the part of the noble lord to the production of the returns alluded to. With respect to the returns for the three first quarters of the year, which the hon. gentleman wished for, he did not see that these could be given, but those about to be brought forward, from the arrangement he had described, would, he apprehended, answer his purpose.

acquiesced in the noble lord's wish.

rose. He said, it was not his intention to take up any large portion of the time of the committee, as the proposition which he wished to submit to it was very short and simple. He would therefore confine himself to a brief explanation of the nature of the measure which he was about to propose. The House would recollect how the various branches of the customs and excise duties had been augmented and applied during the war. They would also recollect that, during the later periods of the war, in the years 1807, 1809, and 1811, the expenses of the loans had been charged upon these war taxes. It was, therefore, highly important that the consolidated fund should be rendered equal to bear those changes permanently. This would be best effected by continuing those war taxes already appropriated for this purpose by the vote of parliament. He, therefore, now intended to propose, that the war taxes, under the heads of customs, should be carried to the consolidated fund, to defray those expenses incurred during the war. Considerable additions had been made to the duties on imports, exports, and tonnage; but these, with all the other war taxes, as they now stood, would, by the existing act, expire in a very few months. It was his intention, at the proper time, to propose to the House some modifications in the duties on imports, as he believed they were those which might be made permanent with the least inconvenience to the public. With respect, therefore, to the whole of the war taxes under the head of customs, he intended that they should be made permanent, and carried to the consolidated fund. But with regard to the other great branch—the excise war duties, his intention was to keep them separate from the consolidated fund; and although he did not foresee any exact period when they could be given up, yet he would not propose to declare them absolutely permanent. By keeping them separate from the consolidated fund, they could, from time to time, be brought before the House, and receive such modifications as might be thought convenient. For the present, therefore, he should only propose to continue the excise war duties for a period of five years. At the same time, he must say, he saw no early prospect of being able to give up those duties. He had some measures in contemplation, for the purpose of repressing smuggling, which be hoped would have the effect of making this branch of the revenue considerably more productive. It was not his intention to propose any continuation of the additional duty on malt; and, in consequence of the cessation of this duty, some regulations would be necessary for the convenience of the trade, with a view to the re-payment of the duty of the stock on hand when the act would expire. There was another reason why it was advisable to separate the excise duties from the consolidated fund, arising from the loss which would be occasioned to the public on the amount of the current duties, from the way in which the taxes going to the consolidated fund were paid into the exchequer. The whole estimated amount of the war excise duties, deducting the additional malt duty, was 3,800,000l—that of the customs, 2,760,000l. Although he would not now go into any general financial statement, he might mention to the House, that though they had thought proper to reject that system of finance which appeared, in his judgment, to be the best, yet he had no intention of attempting to substitute any new taxes to replace that of which he had been deprived, nor to provide for the expenses of any loan. He should therefore attempt to defray the expense of any sums which might be borrowed in the course of the year, in such a way as to prevent any material pressure upon the money market. With this view, during the present year, it was most desirable to take nothing from the sinking fund. Having given such short explanations as he thought were necessary, he would conclude by moving the resolutions to which he anticipated no objection. The resolutions were then read, viz.

"That, towards raising the supply granted to his majesty, the several duties of customs, which by an act of the last session of parliament to continue certain temporary or war duties of customs on the importation of goods, wares, and merchandise into Great Britain, were continued until the 5th day of July 1816, shall be made perpetual." 2. "That towards raising the supply granted to his majesty, the several additional duties of excise in Great Britain, which by an act of the last session of parliament were continued until the 5th day of July 1816, shall be further continued for a time to be limited, save and except the duties on malt made in England and Scotland, or brought from Scotland into England, granted by an act made in the 43d year of his present majesty."

said, that all he could gather from the speech of the right hon. gentleman was merely this—that though by the vigilant attention of parliament to the interests of the country he had been driven from the strong hold he had formed for himself, yet he was on no account to give up any part of the expense for the vast military system which himself and his colleagues had created, and that though he had no new taxes to propose, yet by-means of modifications, by means of new regulations, and by means of a loan, he was determined to carry his favourite military scheme into execution, without regarding the call of the country for retrenchments. He wished to know if this was what the right hon. gentleman really meant in what he had now stated?

replied, that he had certainly stated that he did not mean to propose any great measure of taxation, but to defray the expense of such sums as it might be necessary to borrow, so as not to charge it upon the sinking fund. It could be done therefore by the modification of some of the existing duties. He was sure the House would think it best to keep entire the sinking fund; and when the question was as to the preservation of the sinking fund, they were at least bound to do so much for the support of the public credit during the present distress of the country, as not to touch that fund.

said, that as they were not now going into the details of the budget, he did not feel himself called upon to give any opinion on the general statement of the right hon. gentleman. He could only say, that he was very happy to find that the right hon. gentleman had not carried into effect that terrible revenge with which he had threatened the House in the shape of new taxes, in case they dared to reject the property tax. It now appeared that this threat had been a mere brutum fulmen: and he would say this of it, that of all the propositions that he had ever heard, it would have been the most foolish. As to the question now before the House, he saw no objection to making the customs war duties permanent. It was an arrangement from which, he thought, no inconvenience could result, and it was one to which the faith of parliament was pledged by its votes, as to the loans during the war. As to the other branch of the revenue, the excise, it was for the present only intended to continue the war duties for five years, and the annual produce of these (in round numbers) was estimated at four millions. On this subject there was an old battle between himself and the right hon. gentleman; and he still maintained, that with regard to this part of the subject, the right hon. gentleman did not look the situation of the country fairly in the face. He had no confidence in any contemplated arrangements for the prevention of smuggling, as none of those which had already been adopted, and which, before they were actually tried, had been declared infallible, had hitherto succeeded; nay, the increase of the revenue to be thereby made, calculated upon in the ways and means for the year, after all had entirely failed. How could any arrangements be good against smugglers who were satisfied if they could save one cargo out of seven? He could not therefore agree to allow the right hon. gentleman to carry on for five years an experimental warfare with smugglers. It would be better at once to appoint a committee to inquire into the subject, for the purpose of supplying themselves and the House with the necessary information. He begged the right hon. gentleman to turn this subject in his mind. He feared the smugglers were too strong and cunning a body of men for all that sagacity which the right hon. gentleman possessed. He had often suggested the propriety of submitting the consideration of these taxes to a committee, but that suggestion seemed not to have been congenial to the feelings and wishes of the right hon. gentleman. The taxes of this country were indeed heavy, and he trusted in God would soon be lightened; but when he considered that these particular taxes were proposed for five years, he dreaded that a system of smuggling on a formidable scale would take place, ruinous in the extreme to the revenue. He really thought some regulations on this head should be promptly made, as he very much doubted the experiment of ruining smuggling by continuing the taxes, and was much averse to the proposed plan of checking it by means of cavalry. He would not ask any opinion of the committee on this subject, but certainly thought it had very strong claims to their serious attention.

thought it necessary to make some reply to what the right hon. gentleman had stated with respect to the terrible arrangement which he imagined to have been in contemplation. He certainly had stated, that something must be done by a system of taxes, but so much objection existed against the assessed taxes, that he thought it not advisable to resort to them, and had therefore pressed the property tax, because there was no available substitute; and it was on the same ground that he now proposed a continuance of the war duties on excise and customs, because there was no available substitute. He was very far from denying the critical situation in which the finances of the country were placed: but with respect to the evils that it was supposed would result from smuggling, they might be greatly obviated by I vigilance and activity. The duties of the customs had not yet decreased, and with the aid of some further powers which he should propose for some of the departments concerned in the collection of them, he hoped that no material decrease would I take place. He felt himself bound to I state his opinion with that reserve, as to the amount of his calculations, which such a subject seemed to demand, but still without the slightest feeling of despondency as to the ultimate result.

did not rise for the purpose of making any long observations, but from all he had heard from the right hon. gentleman, the House of Commons were now to proceed in the same extravagant mode, as if ministers had not been deprived of the property and malt taxes, [Hear]. The system was in fact to be the very same as before, without any regard to economy. The House by their recent vote had decided in a very strong manner against the property tax, yet the minister of finance had that evening told the committee of ways and means, that though he had been thwarted in that plan, he was not determined to relax any part of his extravagant expenditure, but was resolved if he could not get it one way to have it another. What was this, but in other words telling them, that he regarded not the mode, but the amount of his expenditure—that they might deprive him of this or that tax, or of whatever they pleased, but if they took it away one way, he would have means to the same amount in another way [Hear, hear!].

said, the right hon. gentleman who had last spoken, perfectly comprehended the nature of his proceeding. But he could not see with that right hon. gentleman in what way the proposed alteration in the taxes had any bearing on the subject of the expenditure of the country: the question of expenditure must rest on its own ground. Thinking, as he did, that the amount of the various services which had been submitted to parliament was absolutely necessary, he did not see any immediate opening for farther reduction. It was equally the duty of the House to watch, and of the government to correct any thing in the expenditure which could be avoided, consistently with the safety and interests of the country. He did allow that a loan might have the effect of encouraging expenditure in the government, because it was a mode of raising money without any immediate pressure upon the country; but he hoped that in the present instance it would have no such effect upon the measures of government—that it would not prevent them from cutting off any expense which could be avoided with safety to the nation.

said, the public now saw what were the motives of his majesty's government, and by what principles they were actuated, in the system of finance proposed for the present year. They demanded eight millions and a half of money, and had formed a very fine plan for getting that sum, when unfortunately they had been completely outwitted by a vote of the House. Yet they took no warning, and seemed not to have benefitted by this salutary lesson. The country were still to stand in the same situation as before. No reduction whatever was to be made in the extravagant mode of expenditure, but since ministers could no longer tax, they were going to borrow. He was afraid they would not do it with a very good grace.

said, he highly approved of the mode proposed by his right hon. friend of supplying the deficiency by a loan. It was no doubt, the duty of parliament vigilantly to attend to every measure proposed by his majesty's ministers, and he had never known them averse to that duty. It was surely obvious to every one, that the ways and means should be adapted to the extent of the supplies, It became the committee of ways and means to grant a vote adequate to the supplies agreed to by the House. He regretted that his right hon. friend had been deprived of the property tax, which he considered one of the best ever laid on the country; but since that was the case, it was indispensably requisite the deficiency should be made good, unless, indeed, the committee could come to the singular resolution of at once reducing the whole of the proposed establishment. He was as anxious as any man could be for economy, but since the House had agreed to a certain establishment, it was requisite they should have means to defray the necessary expense. The taxes now to continue were acknowledged to be inadequate for this purpose, a loan was therefore necessary to make up the deficiency, and he would ask, was it possible in any way else to meet the expenditure of the country? He thought that to act otherwise would be to delude the public, and to trifle with their best interests.

said, that he must have sat so many years in the House to very little purpose, if he did not know the difference between a committee of supply and a committee of ways and means. What he had said was this—that the amount which the finance minister had calculated upon receiving from the property and malt taxes, he now intended to supply himself with by means of a loan. Now, as far as he understood the argument of the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, it went to this—that since the whole nine millions could not be saved, they were to save none. There was no question that the ordinary revenue would not cover the expenses of the year. The amount of the loan was the question. He would repeat what he had formerly said, that ministers, regardless of being defeated in the property tax, were determined not to lessen their expenditure, but to have it right or wrong. Thus hope was cut off from the country. In vain had they unanimously reprobated the idea of an abominable tax being continued; in vain had they been successful in their efforts against the tax; when the same lavish expenditure was still to continue, regardless of the feelings or privations of the people.

in explanation, said, that the chancellor of the exchequer had not yet stated the amount of his loan, nor had the estimates been reduced, as they probably would in the details. He repeated his former statement, and insisted, that as the House was in a committee of supply, it was not regular to enter into discussions foreign to that subject.

observed, that the design of the chancellor of the exchequer was now too well seen through. Though the people had been relieved from the property tax, not in consequence of any disposition on his part to grant them that relief, but by their own spirited exertions, yet he seemed determined to permit no advantage to result from that happy event to public credit. The country must not have the smallest benefit from this reduction of the taxes. The right hon. gentleman seemed to think there was no connexion between a reduction of the taxes and a reduction of the expense of the country, but he went on in the same error. Because an establishment had been voted In the House, the country must, some way or other, make up the unexpected loss he had sustained by the annihilation of the property tax. It was impossible for him to reduce his establishment—that would be too great a condescension—too much flattering the prejudices of the people—he must, therefore, make up his expenses, and get money where he could. It was not enough that the people had rid themselves of two taxes which it was not just for them to bear; he and his colleagues were determined they would not retrench. The right hon. gentleman who spoke last insisted, that those who now talked of a loan, mistook the committee of ways and means for a committee of supply. Now what was most to be complained of in the system of ministers was, that the House was made first to vote the supplies, without looking at the means of the country to support such an expenditure, which was made an after consideration in the committee of ways and means. This was contrary to all the rules of prudence—contrary to the practice of every private individual, who, if he had any wisdom in the management of his affairs, always looked to his means before he resolved to incur any expense. How could the House look with any degree of sense at estimates until it knew how much the country could afford? It was now seen that these estimates could not be voted without having recourse to an intolerable tax on the one hand, or a measure to injure the public credit on the other. However, there was this result from all that had been stated by the chancellor of the exchequer, that no salvation for the country could be expected but in looking at the estimates with a conviction that retrenchments were absolutely necessary. He was aware that this was not the proper time for entering into a discussion of that point; but he had said thus much, because either some great exaggeration had been made, or some palpable mistake committed by the chancellor of the exchequer, when he held out the amount of the property tax as five millions, and the malt duty two millions—in all seven millions—after the remission of the tax on agricultural horses. The right hon. gentleman in a fit of dissatisfaction against the country and the House, on the event of his favourite measure having been rejected, held out very gloomy prospects, or he must have formerly held out false ones, in the hope of inducing the House to adopt the measure.

really apprehended that whether the tax or loan were adopted, the country would evidently see it was the wish of his majesty's ministers to adopt the most rigid economy [A laugh from the opposition]. The only question now before the committee, and one which certainly deserved much attention was, how the supplies agreed to were to be supported, and what was the lowest possible scale of the expenses of the country in a state of peace. He thought the House of Commons in depriving government of eight millions, had materially affected the plan of economy in which his majesty's ministers had formed. He deprecated the gloomy view of the country which gentlemen on the opposite side seemed so much delighted in giving. The country was not nearly so depressed, nor were its funds so exhausted as they would persuade members to believe He contended for the propriety of the establishment voted by the House. It was necessary for the honour, the safety, and the prosperity of Britain. When the positions of armies abroad were considered, when the resources necessary at home for continually relieving those abroad from their arduous duties were also taken into account, he considered it impossible to realize, in any point of view, that immediate reduction which gentlemen on the opposite side demanded. He would beg the committee to remember that this establishment was voted only for one year, and by no means intended to be permanent, and he would also assure them, that it was the earnest wish of his majesty's government, to be as economical as possible. But government detested that economy, which could only be purchased by the sacrifice of the dearest interests of the country [Hear, hear!]. Many reductions would actually be made in the course of the year. It was impossible at present, minutely to point out what these would be, but they should certainly soon be laid before the House, in one combined whole. Many reductions had already been made in disbanding second battalions, disembodying the militia, &c. It was not easy to go over the whole body of the estimates, but the House would see the progress of reduction in a paper of very great importance, which was at present preparing, and for the production of which he would soon move. He again deprecated the idea which gentlemen on the other side entertained, that ministers would not have made any reduction, had they not been thwarted in their views respecting the property tax. He could wish they would treat ministers with a little more of that charity, to which they made such high pretensions. Agreeably to the order of the House, a document would, in the course of that evening be presented, containing an account of the various reductions in expenditure; but he cautioned the House before hand against forming too high an opinion of it, as it only came down to the 5th of January, whereas many reductions had been made since that period, and many more would take place before the 5th of July. In the paper he had formerly mentioned, which was now preparing, the savings adopted by ministers were traced in regular order, under the various political, military, and naval departments. He was sorry to hear the country continually described as in an exhausted state. It was degrading to the character of this great empire to say, that it was incapable of providing for its own security. The country was in no such melancholy state. It was, indeed, depressed, but that pressure was temporary, and its prosperity would soon be evinced in a satisfactory manner to parliament. He by no means wished parliament to delay the discussion, as he was prepared to meet it on fair grounds; but he wished gentlemen, whose views were of so melancholy a cast, to delay forming too gloomy an opinion till the proper documents were before them. It was hurtful to public feeling, it was in every point of view injurious in the extreme, to be perpetually brooding over this dark picture of the state of the country. Ministers wished to be economical—they were determined to be so—but they knew too well and valued too highly British rights and British privileges, to sacrifice them for ill-judged retrenchment. The plan proposed by his right hon. friend for meeting the exigencies of the year, had his warmest support, and he had no doubt would ultimately tend to the promotion of the best interests of this great empire.

denied that gentlemen on his side of the House took a gloomy view of the situation of the country. All they wanted was, that every possible reduction should be made, and they said that the situation of the country required economy. He would be glad to know how long the noble lord had been in his economical fit? He believed that House owed the change in the noble lord almost entirely to the hon. member for Suffolk (Mr. Gooch), who with a loudness of tone which, if it had come from the other side of the House, the noble lord would have called clamour, had told ministers, that unless they adopted measures of economy they would not have his support. It was from that time the noble lord had had this fit. As soon as the noble lord found that office and economy must go together, he became an economist [Hear, hear!]. He was now willing, forsooth, to get the country out of its gloomy situation by pure dint of economy [a laugh]. The noble lord had asked, why it was conceived that the army estimates had been intended for the whole year. Simply because they had been called upon to vote them for the whole year. On that occasion nothing had been said about the different quarters. Now the House were challenged to investigate these estimates point by point; and were told by the noble lord, that in about a week he would show them a statement of the proposed reductions that would delight their very hearts [a laugh]. Why was not this paper mentioned before? Because something had happened since. Because his majesty's ministers had been beaten—for their trifling majority was a defeat, on the question respecting Mr. Croker and his colleague. But with all tin's profession of economy on the part of the noble lord, he (Mr. Tierney) pledged himself in about half an hour, when the navy estimates should come before the House, to show its amount. A paper was now it seemed to be produced in order to show the disposition of his majesty's ministers to save the public money. What was the very first item of the account recently laid on the table of the increase and diminution in the expenses of the public establishments up to the end of January 1816? That in the department of, the treasury alone there had been an increase of 10,000l. [Hear, hear!]. There was a sum of 6,000l. for contingencies, the details of which, were the Speaker in the chair, he would instantly move for. If he were to ask the noble lord what this increase meant, he presumed the answer would be, "Oh, don't mind that. God bless you! that was three months ago, when I was in an extravagant mood [a laugh.]!" The noble lord now promised economy. It was the duty of the House not to trust to such promises, but to go on practically, by voting reductions of expenditure. If they did their duty to their country they would disregard all the noble lord's professions, and not lose a single day in forcing practical economy on his majesty's government. With a view to take his share of this duty, he gave notice that he would speedily repeat the motion which he had made at the commencement of the late war, for the reduction of the office of the third secretary of state. When that motion should be before the House, they would hear what the noble lord could say in defence of its continuation; but he (Mr. T.) could not conceive the possibility of any satisfactory argument on the subject. He again implored parliament not to listen to the flourishing and recantation of the noble lord, but to continue to discharge their duty in the way they had lately done, and thereby give themselves the strongest claim to the gratitude and affection of the country [Hear, hear!].

recommended the appointment of a committee to inquire into the state of the public expenditure and finances. Such a proceeding would be sanctioned by precedent. At the suggestion of Mr. Pitt a similar committee had been constituted in 1786; and in 1791 and 1797 committees of the same description had also been appointed. At the end of the war before the last, the charge on the debt was ten millions. It was now forty millions; and as the resources of the country were by no means increased in proportion to the necessity, an investigation which might suggest the best mode of relieving ourselves from our embarrassments, appeared to him to be the more imperative.

conceived that the right hon. gentleman's plan was, in lieu of the property tax, to borrow the sum required for the public service, and to raise the interest by modifications and additions with regard to various articles of merchandise. Although this would certainly be much felt by the mercantile interest, he had no hesitation in stating, that in his opinion it would be much less hostilely considered by them than the continuance of the property tax. Indeed, he entertained great hopes that the right hon. gentleman might be able to raise 3 or 400,000l. in the way he conceived him to have described, without creating any great burthen on the commercial world. He hoped it was to be distinctly understood, that the right hon. gentleman did not mean to touch the sinking fund. This was most necessary. Nothing also could be more desirable than that parliament should continue their determination to adhere to the strictest economy, and to examine every article of the public expenditure, with the most anxious disposition to retrench as far as the exigencies of the public service would admit.

was very happy that the hon. gentleman opposite had given him an opportunity of again stating his intention of not touching the sinking fund, which he should be enabled to effect by proposing some modifications on the customs duties to meet the expenses of the loan.

said, that the country had expected that the decision of parliament on the property tax would prove an additional stimulus to the reduction of the public expenditure; instead of which, if he understood the right hon. gentleman rightly, what he said was, that if the House would not let his majesty's ministers have six millions through the medium of the property tax, they must get it in some other way. He wished to ask the right hon. gentleman whether he meant to propose the remission of the war duty on malt on the stock now in hand; as that was an important question. As he was on his legs, he would once more press on the right hon. gentleman and on the House the justice and the expediency, in the present exigency of the state, of taking from the bank of England at least a part of the 800,000l. which they now derived annually from the continuation of the restriction on their payment in specie.

replied, that with respect to the war duty on malt, it was intended to propose the remission of it on that stock which should be on hand in July. As to the hon. gentleman's proposition regarding the bank, he conceived that any participation in the profits arising from the continuation of the restriction would be wholly unworthy of parliament. The question rested on its own grounds; and if the restriction was proper, it ought to be continued without reference to any other consideration. As to what had fallen from the hon. gentleman on the subject of economy, he could assure him that his majesty's ministers needed no stimulus to do their duty; and that they would be guided only by a sense of what they conceived was owing to the country.

expressed his apprehension, that amidst the propositions which it was intended to submit to parliament, the interest of one valuable class of the community, namely, the little farmers, would be compromised. It had been said by the chancellor of the exchequer, before the rejection of the property tax, that if that measure were agreed to, he would propose to take off the tax on agricultural horses from such farmers as did not rent above 100l. a year. This was a very numerous and a very suffering description of the people; and he was very anxious to know whether or not it was yet intended so to relieve them? The tax on agricultural horses pressed more heavily on them even than the property tax. Its amount was more than 10 per cent. Those farmers paid now 17s. 6d. duty for every horse; 2l. 17s. for any horse which they could have been proved to have ridden; and in the last event, 10s. for a servant to take care of the said horse. These two last duties had been frequently levied on farmers who had merely used their cart horses to carry them to a market or a fair; and he trusted, if they were not to be relieved from the tax altogether, that at least they would be guarded from this vexatious interpretation of it.

expected to have heard from ministers the scheme of finance for the year: but instead of that, he had heard only of schemes to provide substitutes for the loss of the income tax. The war expenses had amounted to 1500 millions. With that sum we ought to have commanded the whole world, without firing a shot. Last year it was not our men, but our money, that congregated all Europe. It was on the ground of the profuse expense, that he with some others always had opposed the war. He always had believed that the war was not carried on to put down the French revolution and French principles, so much as it was from the dread of reform at home. The chancellor of the exchequer ought now to come forward with his whole plan, to take the expense of last year, and see, in all respects, where it could be cut down. Then they might come to some kind of general issue; and he was confident they would find that they might remove the greater part of the burthens. We ought to go into every department, and say what was or was not necessary. A noble lord had spoken of a saving of 500,000l. a-year, which was not a sum worth looking at in the broad view of the question. It was not sixpence a pound in the expenditure. He had looked to the character of the chancellor of the exchequer for all that was righteousand good; but he would put it to him whether this was the degree of relief the country had a right to expect. He again condemned him for submitting a partial statement to the House, and. concluded by strongly enforcing the necessity of a severe and strict economy.

always considered that the remedy lay in the diminution of expenditure. The diminution of the duties operating on the distilleries was, he was confident, the only way to put down smugglers, by enabling the legal distilleries to provide a palatable liquor for the people of Scotland. The diminution would not be detrimental to the revenue.

The resolutions were then agreed to.

availed himself of this motion to address a few observations to the House on this most important subject. An examination of these navy estimates would furnish a clear exposition of the noble lord's economy; and if he did not make out against his majesty's ministers one of the strongest cases that had ever been established against any government, he was utterly mistaken in his anticipations. He wished, in the first place, to impress on the House, that the discussion into which they were about to enter, had nothing to do with what was generally termed the naval service, and which as there were some who thought it had been reduced too low, so there were none who were of opinion that it ought to be reduced lower. Those estimates had no reference to the naval service, as connected with the naval defence of the country by naval officers. They related only to the civil administration of the navy; and as such demanded the most minute investigation. As the best mode of exhibiting their true character, he had taken the trouble to compare them with former estimates; and for this purpose he had chosen those for the year 1814, so that the estimates of the last year of the war, and those of the first year of the peace, might be compared together. If on this comparison parliament should find that the amount of the latter exceeded that of the former, it would be time for them to look about them. He unequivocally asserted that, with all the professions of economy which the House had that night heard, it would appear that the aggregate expense of these estimates was greater in the present, the first year of the peace, than they had been in 1814, the last year of the war. The right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer opposite smiled at this. He was glad of it. The right hon. gentleman's change of countenance would show him (Mr. Tierney) the progress he made in his statement [a laugh].

The estimates were divided into several heads. These were the admiralty, the navy office, the navy pay office, the victualling office, the home dock-yards, the out-ports, the foreign yards, and so on. With respect to the first branch—the admiralty, the estimate for the present year, including the office of the paymaster of the marines, was 61,223l. There certainly had been a reduction of 1,500l resulting from a late debate in that House, being the salaries proposed by government to be given to an hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Croker), and another respectable gentleman, not a member of that House (Mr. Barrow); and he confessed his regret that, owing to the delicacy of some hon. gentlemen who, however averse to the proposition, would not vote against it until it should be formally before parliament in the shape of estimate, the House had been prevented from compelling this reduction by its own act. However, the sum now proposed for the admiralty was 61,223l. The sum proposed in 1814 was 71,726l. Here was,primâ facie, a diminution of above 10,000l. But when sifted—when those items were deducted in which a saving could not by possibility be avoided, it would be found that the actual decrease was but 923l. The truth would appear to be, that wherever there was a saving, it did not proceed from the conduct of the admiralty itself, but arose from other causes independent of the admiralty. He believed that going into details of this description was tedious to some; but they were necessary for an important object. The saving was only an apparent one, of which by a few details he hoped he should soon convince the House. It appeared that the articles of stationary and contingencies for the hydrographer's office at the admiralty were for 1814, 5,000l.; whereas they were now reduced to 2,000l. But the diminution here was simply to be ascribed to the results of peace, which rendered it impossible that there could be business enough in that office to demand a sum nearly equal to what it might require in time of war. There was a saving in the article of general stationary for the admiralty which amounted in 1814 to 3,500l.; now it was only 3000l. making a decrease of 500l. But this small saving was very easily accounted for by anybody who considered the reduction of the business, consequent upon the reduction of the seamen employed from 145,000 to 33,000. Surely this ought to make a considerable fall in this branch of expense. The other savings arose from similar circumstances. There was a chaplain-general, for instance, who had 610l. a-year, and the expense of 1500l. for the distribution of bibles and testaments, which stood in the estimates of 1814, but were of necessity omitted in the present. The item of disbursements to counsel for the prosecution of suits at law, which in the estimates of [1814 was 14,000l. was in the present, in consequence of the necessary decrease in the number of those suits, reduced to 10,000l. making a saving of 4000l. on that head. Thus, putting apart every thing that savoured of establishment, it would be found that in the items which he had mentioned 9607l. had been saved, the saving of which could not have been avoided; thus reducing the sum which in the first instance appeared to have been saved by the reduction of the establishment itself to 930l. as he had before mentioned. That was the sum, the glorious sum—he congratulated his majesty's ministers upon it,—which they had been able to deduct from the establishment of the admiralty, now the country was at peace, as compared with that establishment when the country was at war [Hear, hear!] If he chose it, he might compare the present with the estimates of a year which would be still more advantageous to his statement, the first year of the war. In 1804, the first year of the war, the admiralty branch of the estimates had been 43,900l. now it was 61,223l. making the difference of above 17,000l. against us in the first year of a peace, as compared with the first year of a war!

The next branch of the estimates was those for the navy office. In 1814, that branch had been 81,109l; now it was 84,169l. being an exceeding with respect to the navy board of 3060l. No great sum, he readily admitted, were it not for the difference in the situation of the country; and were it not that it appeared the navy board in time of war could do their work at an expense less than that at which they were able to do it in time of peace [Hear, hear!]. But let this branch of the present estimates, be compared with that of the estimates of 1804, and the difference would be still more striking. In 1804, the first year of the war, the estimate was 53,000l.; at present it was 84,000l. making us worse by 31,000l. in the first year of peace than we were in the first year of war! It was indispensable that the hon. baronet should show the House how these matters were. Any body who would take the trouble to read the accounts might see all this clearly. He should, however, try to make out a case for the worthy baronet, or for any other gentleman who had nerves enough to attempt an answer, and endeavour to show the economical mode in which government had set about these deductions.

The next item was the navy pay office. In 1814, the estimate was 44,948l., the present estimate was 43,864l.; being an apparently less sum of 1084l. But if it were considered that the article of postage was diminished by 3000l., a necessary and unavoidable diminution, it would appear that instead of a favourable change, the country in the first year of a peace, was in a worse situation, with respect to this estimate, by the sum of 1900l. than in the last year of a war. As in the former instances, it was not the amount of the sum to which he called the attention of the House, but the difference of the circumstances. He next adverted to the victualling office, and compared its present proposed expense with what it was in 1814. At that period it was estimated at 49,653l., and in the present year, it was 49,195l. The difference of the decrease was small, but if the real savings in that department were considered, it would be found, that instead of a decrease, there had been a considerable increase. The savings which were to follow upon a time of peace, were a decrease in the postage of letters, which must be so numerous in time of war. Savings also were made in parish rates, and these, when set against the apparent decrease since 1814, would show that there had been a real increase of about 4000l; being so much more in the first year of peace, than it was in the last year of war. It was to be considered, with regard to these estimates, that the country was in a state of peace, and the cost of every thing was much less than in time of war. There was also a great saving in postage of letters, as he had before observed, and in many other expenses incidental to a state of war; and yet, comparing the estimates of the three departments to which he had alluded in the present year, with what they were in 1814, a decrease of only between 8 and 9000l. would be found. In 1804, they I had been 166,000l.; in 1814,247,000l.; and in 1816,238,400l. The proposed peace establishment for these effices in 1814 exceeded the war establishment of 1804 by 71,545l. And though there was an apparent reduction of 8,985l. from the establishments of 1814, yet the establishments had been increased since that period 10,303l. We had this year, therefore, the opportunity of spending 8,100l. for the advantages of peace.

The next head of expenditure, to which he begged leave to call the attention of the House, was the naval yards. This was a matter of the greatest consideration to every one. The difference between the expenditure of 1814 and 1816, in this department, could not fail to excite the astonishment of the House and the country. The expenses of the home yards in the year 1814, being the last year of the war, amounted only to 220,000l.; in 1816, the first year of the peace, they amounted to 229,722l., making a difference of more than 9,000l. in favour of the war establishment. He was willing to allow that there were several articles that might have risen in price, and that some account might be given of the general excess, although he could not anticipate that any thing reasonable or satisfactory could be pleaded in favour of an expenditure so much opposed, primâ facie, to all ministerial professions of economy. In the out-ports there was likewise some difference to be observed between the expenditures of 1814 and 1816; but the sum altogether estimated under this head was so small, that it would be wasting the time of the House to enter into the comparison. The foreign yards were not so insignificant, and in them the difference of estimates for the two years of peace and war could not fail to strike the minds of hon. members. In the year 1804 the whole sum voted for foreign yards was only 7,469l.; in 1814 it amounted to 53,000l.; and in 1816 the estimate was fixed at 57,462l. Thus there would appear an enormous increase of the public burthens, from the charges of foreign yards, since the commencement of the war after the peace of Amiens. He well knew the answer that his majesty's ministers would make to this. He could anticipate their congratulations on the increase in our foreign dominions, and the argument they could then deduce for the increase of foreign expenditure. He merely mentioned the circumstance to show how much our boasted possessions cost us for maintaining them; but he would not so easily give up the argument in favour of reduction that arose from a comparison of the estimate of 1814 with the present year. The comparison was perfectly fair, as it could not be pretended that we had added to our foreign possessions since the last year of the war. We had all the foreign yards then that we possessed at the present moment, and yet we now paid 4,000l. more than we were required to do at that former period. The grand total of all these estimated expenses in 1804 amounted to 258,937l.; in 1814, to 528,000l.; in 1816, to 532,000l.; making an excess of 4,000l. in the first year of the peace over the last year of the war. This would appear not a little surprising, when it was considered that the naval force voted in the first of these periods was 100,000, in the second 143,000, and in the third, or present year, only 33,000 men.

The right hon. gentleman here went over the different naval yards of Dept-ford, Woolwich, Chatham, Sheerness, Portsmouth, and Plymouth, and pointed out the difference of the estimates that resulted from a comparison of the years 1801 and 1814, with the present, viz.:— For Deptford, in 1804, 11,576l.; in 1814, 27,529l.; in 1816,27,533l.; for Woolwich, in 1804, 11,790l.; in 1814, 31,000l.; in 1816, 33,061l.; for Chatham, in 1804, 13,000l.; in 1814, 35,000l.; in 1816, 35,450l.: for Sheerness, in 1804, 10,000l.; in 1814, 24,000l.; in 1816, 25,453l.: for Portsmouth, in 1804, 19,000l.; in 1814, 56,000l.; in 1816, 60,728l.; for Plymouth; in 1804, 15,990l.; in 1814, 45,000l.; in 1816, 47,496l., This was an important matter for the consideration of the House, as it would be a strong argument for a reduction of expenses in this department, rather than a ground for any increase; yet notwithstanding this disproportion, the House were now to be told that the expense in our dock-yards was to be 8,000l. more in the first year of peace than had been deemed sufficient in the last year of the war. This was a subject which required a world of explanation. It was one on which the country would feel the greatest anxiety, as by the way in which it would be answered the economy of the gentlemen opposite would be put to the test. It required no trifling explanation to show why the foreign dockyards had increased 4,000l. in expense since 1814, and why the increased expenditure of the home yards was more than double that sum in the same period. By the estimates which were before the House, there was an apparent decrease of 11,000l. in the victualling department; but if the expenses which were necessarily to cease, and which really had ceased with the war in that department, were to be taken into consideration, this great saving, which was so much talked of, would appear to be no more than 340l. In like manner the boasted savings in the Admiralty, when judged by the same rule, would be found to amount to no more than 923l. So that in fact, the whole result of this economy which had been talked of on the other side, was that a saving of 1200l. had been made to the public—in other words, that the public were 1200l. richer in those departments by being at peace than they would be by continuing at war [Hear, hear!]. But leaving out this saving, what was the fact with regard to the other heads to which he alluded? Why, that an increase of expense had taken place in the first year of peace more by 21,604l. than was deemed necessary in time of war. So that his majesty's ministers, by dint of economy, had made their navy estimates in these departments for the first year of peace exceed those of the last year of war by 21,604l.; and giving them credit for the saving by 1200l. in the admiralty and victualling departments, there still remained an excess of 20,000l., as compared with the expenditure of 1814 [Hear, hear!]

He would ask whether it was necessary for him to say one word more on this subject? He had, he hoped, clearly pointed out to the House that there was a gross excess of expenditure in time of peace, above what had been in time of war; and it was for the House to inquire into the cause of that excess, and the necessity which existed for it. He might be in error in some of the statements which he had made, with regard to figures; he might not have precisely calculated the amount of the excess. But he would ask the House, and would submit it to the House and the country, whether he had not made out a case of gross and palpable excess in the public expenditure—? an excess which required a decisive explanation from the hon. baronet opposite. The statement which he had made, was one which could not be ansewered by mere argument alone. Facts, positive and clear facts could alone be brought against it, not to refute it, for it could not be denied, but facts which would prove that the excess which he had noticed was necessary or consistent with that economy, of the practice of which so much had been said on the other side of the House. If the hon. baronet wished to satisfy the House and the country on the subject, he would get up and answer his statement, figure by figure. The hon. baronet might attempt to do this, and still not give a satisfactory explanation. Even the noble lord himself (Castlereagh) might make one of his longest speeches without adducing any one well-founded argument in support of this excess [Hear! and a laugh]. He had thus shown to the House, under general heads, that they were now called upon to vote 20,000l. more in time of peace than they had been asked for in time of war. In this statement he had not gone into very minute details, and if he had been at all minute in the examination, it was with considerable pain to himself. He might be met by gentlemen on the other side with the old plea which had been so often urged since the opening of the present session. He might be told that the several estimates had more a reference to a state of war than to a time of peace— that they were not to be considered as permanent establishments which the House were then called upon to vote, but that they would be reduced in a short time. This he conceived to be no answer. The necessity of keeping up a war establishment could not now be adduced in support of an expense which he had shown to be greater than when the country was really at war. The country was now at peace, but if the argument which would go to justify the present excess were well founded, he should only say that the country would gain by being at war. It would save 20,000l. in those estimates, and would have saved 100,000l. including the expense of the illuminations for the peace [Hear, hear! and a laugh].

After the statement which he had made to the House, he was at a loss what course to take. If he wished to have the estimates returned with an address to the Prince Regent to have them reconsidered, it might be said that his royal highness had still the same persons to advise him who first recommended the estimates, and that they would give the same opinion as to their necessity. But to this he should answer, that if the army estimates had been sent back with an address of the House to have them reconsidered, they would have been so. The noble lord who now so strenuously insisted on the necessity of every man of the number which had been voted, would have assumed a different tone, and have found means of dispensing with a smaller number, if a vote of the House had decided in favour of the reconsideration of the estimates. Like his right hon, friend, the chancellor of the exchequer, who so strongly and perseveringly insisted on the expediency of the property tax, and urged it as a measure with which he was ready to stand or fall, a measure which was absolutely indispensable, yet, who the moment it was negatived by a majority of the House, declared he could find out other modes of taxation. Like him, the noble lord would, if pressed by a vote of the House, and had the alternative of either losing his place, or reconsidering the estimates, have come down and said, "Since you do so press upon me, my good friends, those estimates shall be reconsidered," and in fact so they would. If the House by such a vote, as that he (Mr. T.) had described, had insisted on the necessity of reduction, reduction would have taken place; but they might depend upon it, that if they did not interfere, the ministers themselves would never come forward with such a measure. If a vote of the House should be come to, expressive of their wish to have the estimates re-considered, it would be seen that in less than a week they would come back again considerably reduced, and as different from their former shape as light from darkness [Hear, hear!]. The ministers, without this vote would urge the plea, that they had made arrangements which could not now be broken. They had indeed made arrangements, and they had delayed the sitting of parliament to the unusually late period at which it opened, in order to do so! They had engaged their clerks and other officers at large salaries, and then they said to parliament—" You cannot alter this arrangement, without throwing so many useful public servants out of employment, without any provision for themselves or their families—you cannot now break those engagements which have been made." But it was necessary that those arrangements should be altered—it was necessary that the public money should be saved in every possible way, and that an economy which those arrangements did not contemplate should be strictly adhered to. He thought that one way by which this could be effected would be, by giving a negative to the estimates, with a view to their being withdrawn for reconsideration, and he should make a motion to that effect, if he were not deterred by the decision which had been come to on the army estimates. At the same time he conceived that if such a measure were not adopted, nothing could be done towards reduction when the House went into a committee. Gentlemen would then be divided in their opinions as to the different modes of reduction, and the different items in which it should be made. For instance, in the admiralty some would think five clerks were necessary, others would be of opinion that three would be sufficient, and so on; there would not be a sufficient number so well agreed on any one plan as to produce any material reduction in the whole. But this would be obviated by giving a negative in the present instance to the estimates altogether, and then they would be taken back and reduced. There was no other mode which the House could so effectually adopt, and he called upon them to do so, seeing, as they must, the total disregard to economy which was had, and the enormous excess to which every expenditure was carried on the part of ministers. If the House should say to ministers," These estimates are two large for a time of peace, they are two extravagant for the present state of the country: take them back and reconsider them, for it was your duty to have sent proper estimates in the first instance." If such should be the language of the House, the country would soon feel its beneficial effects, for the estimates would be withdrawn and reduced. He knew of no other way by which it could be effected. But if there was, he did not object to any particular manner in which this might be done; and if the hon. member near him (Mr. Bankes), whose vote on a former occasion he (Mr. T.) regretted, could point out any way in which this might be done, he would not object to it. There was decidedly a majority of the House in favour of economy, and who were disposed to approve of any measure by which it could be brought about. Under these circumstances it was the duty of members to consider whether an excess of 20,000l. in time of peace over what was borne in time of war, was not a subject which required the most serious deliberation [Loud cries of Hear, hear!].

expressed his inability to follow the ingenuous statement which had been made by the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down. But that right hon. gentleman, with an ingenuity which he possessed on every subject, had not, in his opinion, laid the matter fairly before the House. The House should recollect, that the estimates on which the right hon. gentleman had commented so ingeniously, were not proposed as the permanent peace establishment, and that many of them, from the arrangements which were at present in progress, would be greatly diminished before the end of this year. It was not fair therefore to include them in a view of the establishment as proposed even for one year. Neither was it fair to make so great a distinction between the civil and the war department, when the great increase in the sum proposed for the former arose out of the conclusion of the war, and the necessity for winding up the accounts, and bringing every thing to the proper basis of the peace. This increase in the expense of the civil department as connected with the navy, would not be thought very great, when the number of ships yet afloat and to be paid off was taken into consideration. The ordinary of the navy was always more expensive in the first year of peace than in time of war, and the number of clerks proportionably greater, in consequence of the ships daily arriving and delivering up their stores. He should not go very far back to compare the proposed estimates with those of former periods, but should compare them with those which had been voted last year, and from that comparison the House would see what reductions had been made, and what were in contemplation, and would be made in the course of the year. —The hon. baronet then went into a statement of the several items of the estimates as compared with those of last year. In the Admiralty there was a saving of 4000l. In the home dock-yards there had been no reduction on account of the number of ships which were daily coming home, and on this account the civil establishments of those places were so expensive, but this was an expense which could not be considered as permanent. There were only two modes of reducing the expenses in these yards. The first was a reduction of the number of workmen, of which the service did not admit at present. The second a reduction of the working hours, which would still require the same expense in overseers and clerks. In the foreign yards there had yet been no reduction, but a considerable one was in contemplation. The yards at Madras and Bombay would be greatly reduced, and orders had been sent out for that purpose. In the Mediterranean and Malta there was a reduction of 4000l. In the West India islands, particularly in Antigua, Jamaica, Bermuda, and Demerara, there would be such a reduction as was consistent with the safety of those places. To a question across the table from Mr. Tierney, as to the probable amount of the reduction in those places, the hon. baronet replied that he was at present unable to state the precise amount.— With regard to the victualling department, no reduction could be effected immediately. The business of these establishments was rather increased than diminished by the first year of peace. The establishment would be reduced, although not in the present year, as the number of clerks, who could not obtain superannuations, and who must be provided for in some other way, were a burthen which could not immediately be removed. There had been a great reduction of clerks in the admiralty, creating a saving of 5,100l. The numbers formerly were, 10 of the first class, now reduced to 8; 12 of the second class, now reduced to 7; 30 of the third class, now reduced to 13: amounting in all to 52; and now reduced to 28. The peace had of course increased one item of our expense to a great extent, namely, the charge for ships in ordinary. The increase under this head by the peace amounted to 142,000l With regard to the increase in the salaries of the clerks, he hoped, when the subject came to be considered by the House, that it would approve and sanction what his majesty's ministers had recommended, being well satisfied of its necessity and expediency. The rise had taken place on the eve of a peace, but it had been in contemplation for more than three years. It was thought their former income was too small to constitute a fair remuneration for their active and laboriousemployments. The halfpay was of course beyond former example, from the duration and extensivenature of the war. The halfpay estimate amounted to 1,019,755l. In the year 1796, after the American war, this head of expenditure was only 93,000l. At the close of such a war, the expenses of repairs might have been anticipated to amount to a large sum, and this was actually the case. At the end of the American war the sum voted was 200,000l.; the estimate on the table under the same head amounted to 535.589l, There was one view of the subject of building and repairing our navy that could not but give satisfaction to the House—he meant the transference of this work from the mercantile dock yards to the national. At the end of the American war there were twenty-eight sail of the line and fifty-four frigates building or refitting in the docks belonging to merchants; at present there was only one small sixth-rate, and there would be no necessity of resorting to this mode of increasing or repairing our ships of war in future. He apprehended that the establishment at Sheerness had already received the sanction of the House, inasmuch as it was admitted to be necessary that ten sail of the line should receive their stores from that harbour. At Plymouth, also, considerable sums were required by the store-houses, which were more necessary in time of peace than of war, from the frequent return of ships to be supplied.—The hon. baronet, after restating some of his remarks on the importance of the establishment at Bermuda, concluded by observing that the whole expense proposed for the naval service of the present year was 7,147,000l. The House was already apprized that it was intended to transfer the business of the transport-board to the navy-office, although the settlement of old arrears had retarded the accomplishment of that object. Upon the whole, he felt that he had described, in a very inadequate manner, this outline of the public naval service; but he could assure the House that it was the disposition of the admiralty to carry into effect every retrenchment of expenditure consistent with the security, of the country. Inquiries were in progress into every department—every further practicable reduction was in contemplation—and no doubt considerable reductions might be expected to take place. He had only to add, that he trusted he should be able to state these different points more clearly in the committee.

had heard with great pleasure of the economical disposition of the board of admiralty, but at the same time considered it to be his duty to show that the present estimates ought to be materially reduced. When he compared the proposed establishment with that of 1802, be observed that the chief clerk had 1050l. a-year, although the commissioners of naval inquiry had declared that 800l. was a sufficient remuneration. They recommended an addition of 120l. in time of war; but here was an increase of 250l. in time of peace. One assistant clerk who formerly received 50l., now received 100l. per annum. These sums might appear trifling when considered separately; but, considered in the aggregate, they swelled into importance. The salary of the paymaster of widows' and orphans' pensions had been augmented from 200l. to 600l. a year; that of the inspector of telegraphs from 300l. to 500l. He presumed, from the last item, that it was intended still to keep up the telegraph establishment [Here sir G. Warrender said across the table, that the telegraphs were to be done away, and that the inspector's office was only to continue for a short time]. He thought it, then, hardly fair to the House to require it to vote the charge for the whole year. He observed, that there was likewise an item for six messengers, two at 280l. and four at 150l. per annum each. Here there was a correspondent rise of allowance, as compared with the estimates of 1802. The same principle of progressive increase might be traced to the minutest charges; for instance, there was an allowance of 20l. to the barge-master, whereas it never before exceeded 6l. He mentioned these things chiefly for the purpose of showing that the practice prevailed universally of raising the amount of all salaries to public servants. The sum of 10,000l. appeared to him to be a very large sum for law charges; but he was quite at a loss to understand why the office of paymaster of the marines was not transferred to the general treasurership of the navy. This constituted a charge of 2,340l. which was about 12s. a man for the trouble of paying them. The vacant office of deputy-comptroller of the navy would, he presumed, be abolished; but why, he wished to ask, was the country to be burthened with three surveyors, when during the war it had but two? He would point out a few other instances of the same lavish and uncessary expenditure. The receiver of fees and paymaster of contingencies, instead of 300l., now received 400l.: the registrar of public securities was altogether a newly created office: three draftsmen of public buildings had now 1,150l. an increase of 400l. upon their former salaries. If he turned his attention to the different yards, he perceived that at Portsmouth the charge for this year was 60,000l. In 1813 it was 45,000l., and in 1802 it was 15,000l. [Hear, hear!] The expense of foreign yards was 57,462l. and for the out-ports 6,791. In the year 1802 the two items together amounted only to 13,000l. and yet the peace of Amiens was deemed an insecure peace—a peace made with republican France; whereas we were now at peace with France restored to the legitimate government of the Bourbons. All these circumstances, to avoid going into any further detail, seemed to him to furnish a strong case which might admit, but certainly demanded explanation. All the votes of that House would be useless, unless' the necessity of practical retrenchment was perpetually pressed upon the attention of government.

considered that the arguments of the right hon. gentleman, who had spoken first would be unanswerable, if applied to the year 1820 instead of the year 1816. His opinion certainly was, that ministers would not deserve the confidence of the country if they did not adopt every practicable measure of economy; but the period of 1802 was not a fair test by which to judge of the present establishment. It was too low at that time, and the peace was a short and miserable one. He would wish the House to recollect the distress to which so many gentlemen must be reduced, by being turned adrift upon the world [A laugh]. For his own part, this appeared to him a powerful consideration, nor had he heard any thing against it but noise and nonsense. He believed he could assure the right hon. gentleman who had contrived, with a good deal of ingenuity, to turn his hon. friend's flank, that the establishments in the East Indies, at Trincomalee, Bombay, and Madras, would be immediately reduced, particularly at the two latter settlements. Gibraltar was likewise to be reduced; and if that at Malta was still to be maintained, he apprehended it could not be desired on the other side that we should abandon all our naval stations in the Mediterranean. With respect to the force at Bermuda, it formed the great security of Canada, and was a point from which a British fleet might sweep the whole extent of the coast of North America. He deprecated any renewal of hostilities with America in his time; but it was impossible that the House should shut its eyes to the growing and gigantic strength of her naval power. She was no longer to be contended against by bumboat expeditions; her three-deckers now sailed upon fresh water, and he would appeal to a gallant admiral (Markham) whether it was any thing better than pinchbeck economy to keep down this branch of the service [A laugh]. He thought, that too much stress had been laid on the salaries of the clerks. If the first clerk received 150l. a year more than any lord of the admiralty, he had been 36 years in the office, and his conduct such as to merit the respect and gratitude of his country. Supposing that the pay branch was done away by being turned over to the general department of the navy, it perhaps was questionable whether this alteration would produce any saving to the public [Hear, hear!]. Gentlemen might cheer him; he was not affected by that; for he knew they always cheered an honest man [A laugh]. Mr. Sippings, the third surveyor, had received the approbation of lord St. Vincent, and this was saying a great deal. He would, like his right hon. friend the treasurer of the navy, lay his hand upon his heart, and vow to God [a loud laugh] that he believed there was no foundation for the charge of extravagance brought against his majesty's ministers on this subject. Why should there be but two surveyors? Were they to keep watch and watch; and if they were, what was to be done if the one should be seized with a fit of apoplexy, and the other be knocked down by a flash of lightning? The place of registrar of public securities had been condemned because it was a new office, but it was an office which had always been necessary, and for want of it the public had been peppered and bedevilled in all weathers [A laugh]. He must confess he had been twenty-six years a member of that House, and, in spite of all his efforts, he had not been able to make himself master of parliamentary phraseology; but what he meant was, that for the want of an officer at 4 or 500l. a year, the country ought not to be diddled out of its money or securities [A laugh]. As for the assistant draftsmen, they were persons of scientific acquirements, and men who devoted a great portion of their time to the service of the public. The poor-rates had also greatly increased, particularly in the neighbourhood of the naval arsenals, and had increased the burthens of all persons residing in those situations. He might safely refer to the intelligent mind of the right hon. gentleman himself, whether the plan of building only in the King's yards must not ultimately produce a large saving That was the system now acted on; and, upon the whole, he would appeal to the country gentlemen in the House, and to every man, either in office, or who wished to get into office, whether it was possible at Lady-day 1816, to cut down the naval establishment to that of the dearly-beloved period of 1802. A few thousand pounds might be cut down that very month, but any great saving could not be looked for till the end of the year.

felt himself called on, from some observations in the speech of the honourable gentleman who spoke last—a speech more full of jocularity than arguments,—to say something respecting the Pinchbeck administration alluded to— he meant that of earl St. Vincent. It was hardly necessary for him to enlarge on the great qualifications possessed by that extraordinary man—it was hardly necessary for him to call the attention of the House to the length or the value of his services— and if the hon. gentleman had nothing to urge against the arguments for a reduction of the lavish expenditure proposed by his majesty's ministers but the ridicule which he had thrown on the economy practised under the naval administration of that gallant lord, he had better have kept his peace and not said a word. He congratulated the House and the country that one great plan of the noble earl alluded to, the building ships in the royal dockyards, had at length been adopted. That was a point which had formerly been much laboured in that House, and for which the administration to which the pinchbeck admiralty belonged, had been much vilified. Yet the present administration were now taking credit for this plan, and ridiculing all the while those whom in this respect they were merely following. He objected to the great sum which was to be expended in new works, and especially the sum which was to be laid out on Pater yard, in Milford Haven. There had been before a yard in Milford Haven, for building only, but now it seemed the intention to make a yard there for repairing also. He protested against the establishment of any yard at all, in that harbour. What recommendations it had even for a building yard, he could not imagine. The country around it produced no timber. The nearest place from whence timber was brought, was the river Wye, and as it was necessary to ship it, the expense would not be increased by carrying it round the Land's. End to Plymouth. It was, besides, necessary to carry to Milford, sails, cordage, copper, iron, and all other articles, which enhanced the charge of repairs, and it was, besides, one of the worst points for ships to make in the Irish Channel. He also thought it very injudicious to expend large sums on the yards in the rivers Thames and Medway, because the depth of water continued to diminish in those rivers. The sums which it was now proposed to expend on Chatham, Woolwich, and Deptford, and the new yard at Pater, would go far towards the building a new yard at Northfleet. He did not mean to object to the keeping the old yards in the river in repair, but it was most improvident to make any additions to them. In the foreign yards the reductions had not been made which were customary on the return of peace. During the peace of 1802, there had been no commissioner at Antigua, or Nova Scotia. The military department of the navy, he considered a neglected and oppressed service, in comparison with the army. The admirals had been deprived of the prize money, which they had formerly received, without any compensation. He did not know how it was possible, that an admiral should now on some stations, the West Indies for instance, keep up a table like an admiral, or even like a warrant officer. An instance of the different treatment of the army and navy, was to be seen at St. Helena; admiral Cockburn was sent there —with an allowance somewhat increased to be sure—but sir Hudson Lowe had twelve thousand pounds a year. And no one could deny that admiral Cockburn's situation was by far the most disagreeable. Sir Hudson Lowe was shut up in the island only, but admiral Cockburn was shut up in a box—for the cabin of a man of war was nothing better. When officers of the army abroad drew for their pay, they were paid in solid coin the full amount, in any quarter of the globe, but the naval officer was subject to lose on the rate of exchange. He did not wish that the country should at this time be put to any new expense, but at least both the services should be put on the fame footing.; especially as they had borne all their hardships during war without a murmur. The naval officers were obliged, when they took their half-pay, to take an oath that they enjoyed no other place or emolument under government. The officers of the army took no such oath [Yes, they do! from the ministerial side of the House], At any rate, military officers to his knowledge had enjoyed their half-pay, and at the same time received the full allowances of governors of fortresses. He had been once inclined to think it hard that no half-pay was allowed to master's mates and midshipmen, but upon mature consideration he found that subject attended with many difficulties; for if half-pay were allowed to these officers, the navy might be filled with persons who entered with other motives than a love to the service, and who would not be likely to form Nelsons and St. Vincents. After enjoying their half-pay for years on shore, it might be found that they would not be able or willing to serve the country. He saw no reason, however, why wounded officers in the navy should not be put on the same footing as those in the army, with respect to pensions.

said, he should not follow the gallant admiral who had last spoken, into the details of his clear, and for the most part candid speech, because when they came into the committee, he should be ready and wilting, and anxious to meet him in that branch of the discussion; but for the present he should turn his attention to the speech of the right hon. gentleman who opened the debate. That speech, like most of the speeches of the same right hon. gentleman, was ingenious and forcible, but like too many of his speeches, it was destitute of foundation. The right hon. gentleman affected great earnestness, and appeared to feel really convinced of the force of his argument; but this could be only an appearance, for the right hon. gentleman must be too well acquainted with the subject on which he was speaking, to suppose that he stood on solid grounds. The short issue of that right hon. gentleman's speech was, that in the first year of peace there was an increase on the ordinary estimates of the navy of 20,000l. and that this was a primâ facie ground for sending back the estimates without even going into the committee. Now the right hon. gentleman could hardly be ignorant that in the first year of every peace upon record, the ordinary estimates of the navy had exceeded those of the last year of war preceding; and the reason of this was plain, because the ordinary estimates comprised the civil department of the navy; and as the scattered materials were in time of peace brought back to the offices and dockyards, the expense of those establishments was consequently increased. To prove what he had asserted, he should give a statement of the ordinary estimates in the last years of war and the first years of peace, from the treaty of Utrecht to the present time. In the year 1714, the first year of peace after that treaty, the in-crease on the navy ordinaries was 28,000l. It would be necessary, that the amount of this increase might be clearly understood, that he should state the proportion which the increase and decrease at different times bore to the whole amount of the establishments, and it would be seen in the course of the statement which he should exhibit, that not only had the ordinary estimates of the navy increased regularly in the first year of every peace, but that they had as regularly decreased in the first year of every war. In 1714, then, the increase of that year, being the first year of peace, was, as he had just stated, 28,000l. being 3–20ths of the whole estimates. In 1739, the last year of peace, the expense was 220,000l.: in 1740, the first year of war, it was 190,000l., having fallen 2–20ths— in 1748, the last year of war, it was 208,000l.; in 1749, the first year of peace, it was 285,000l., being an increase of 77,000l. or 7–20ths—in 1755, the last year of peace, the ordinary estimate was 280,000l.; in 1756, the first year of war, 216,000l. being a decrease of 4–20ths—in 1762, the last year of the war, it was 272,000l.; in the first year of peace (1763) it rose to 380,000l., being an increase of 8–20ths, or 108,000l.; in 1775, the year before the American war, it was 444,000l.; in 1776, the first year of the war, it fell to 426,000l. being a decrease of 1.20th—in 1783, the last year of that war, it was 451,000l.; in the first year of the peace (1784) it was 701,000l. being an increase of 250,000l. or 11–20ths of the whole estimate [Hear, hear!]—in 1792, the last year of peace, it was 672,000l.; in 1793, it was 669,000l., a trifling diminution indeed, but which showed their tendency to fall at the commencement of the war; in 1801–2, the last year of the war, it was 1,058,000l.; in 1802–3, the year of peace, it rose to 1,228,000l. being an increase of 3–20ths; and if the sum added in that first year of peace to the navy debt be taken into the account, as it ought to be, it would make the increase in that very year, to which honourable gentlemen were so fond of referring, 10–20ths, or one-half of the whole estimate. [Hear, hear!]—In 1804, the first year of war, the estimate had fallen to 1,058,000l., being a decrease of 3–20ths. The ordinary of the navy in the last year was 2,348,000l. In the present year it was proposed that it should be 2,765,000l. being an increase of only 4–20ths of the whole estimate. Now, this was a smaller increase on the commencement of peace than any former estimates which could be referred to.—He had thus, he trusted, got rid of the primâ facie case, of which so much had been said. But he did not wish it to be supposed, that if the House went into a committee he should be contented with such general statements. He entreated the House to go into that committee, and as he had endeavoured to answer the general reasoning of the right hon. gentleman, he should then prove the propriety of the details. The right hon. gentleman had requested to be answered by figures—in that at least he had satisfied him. The right hon. gentleman had chosen his own weapons and ground, and yet he believed it would be admitted that he was wholly defeated. But it might be said, that the sums which he had given were the whole of the estimates, whereas the speech of the right hon. gentleman was confined to the civil establishments. But, in taking the whole estimates together, he (Mr. Croker) had probably done injustice to his cause; for as there never had been so large half-pay allowances and pensions at any former period of peace, the account might have been more in his favour if these items were deducted. But in narrowing the subject to the narrowest view the right hon. gentleman could take of that subject, the civil offices and dockyards, he would say, that in one hundred years no instance could be found in which the peace estimates in these departments had been less than those of the last years of war. A minute difference might indeed have escaped his observation in so voluminous a search as through the estimates of a century; but he had examined them with the best diligence he was master of, and he believed he might confidently say, that in the very points insisted on by the right hon. gentleman no instance of a diminution would be found, and that wherever there was any difference, it was an excess of the first year of peace over the last year of war. All this was in direct contradiction of the right hon. gentleman's statement, and a reason for going into a committee, and he should there, he hoped, be able to show that the items were as far from being extravagant as the sum was from being primâ facie objectionable; and that some of those which looked most like extravagant to the gentlemen opposite, were in reality most economical, and were sanctioned not only by reason, but by the votes and resolutions of that House [Loud cries of Hear, hear!].

said, that the grave speech of one lord of the admiralty, and the facetious speech of another, had done but little to convince the House of the propriety of the enormous estimates which had been laid before them. The hon. secretary, too, whom they had just heard, had confined himself to points which had not been disputed, and had brought forward many figures without at all advancing his argument. As the hon. secretary had expressed his wish for a primâ facie case, he would treat him with one. It was this, that the victualling money had been raised from Is. 4d. per head in war to 1s. 6d. He was confident that by any navy contract at least 6d. per head might have been saved. A local case of extravagance had been stated to him on the best authority. It was this, that the master of the quarantine at Miiford Haven, whose salary was 200l. a year, had in October last received an increase of fifty guineas. He had also the perquisite allowed him of victualling his men at Is. 4d. per head per day. He had learned that since last autumn the allowance had been raised to 1s. 6d, The real expense of victualling these men could not be more than 1s. per day in Wales; and here, then, on the number of men under his direction, a perquisite of 1000l. a year was thrown into the hands of the quarantine master, which, in addition to his pay, would make his place worth 1500l. a year. Was this person a man who had distinguished himself in the navy? No, instead of that, he understood he had been the master of a collier. This was a most flagrant waste of the public money, and a gross breach of public duty on the part of the admiralty to permit it. His idea was, that the estimates should be sent back to ministers for reconsideration, and the rather as they were made so far back as in January last. Something had been said of building in merchants' yards; but he would ask, what had become of the Cydnus and Eurotas frigates, that were built in the king's yard only so lately as 1813? He was told they were broken up for fire-wood; therefore he was led to conclude that there must be some great defect in this branch of the service.

maintained, that the hon. gentleman who spoke last was quite as unfortunate in his primâ facie cases as his right hon. friend Beside him, whom the hon. gentleman seemed willing to leave in the lurch. For the fact was, that the admiralty had no connexion with the case mentioned at Milford Haven; nor was that case included in the estimates upon the table. Blame might attach to the department under which this master of quarantine acted, but the admiralty had nothing to do with him. So much as to one of the hon. gentleman's primâ facie cases, and now as to the other, it turned out most unluckily for the hon. gentleman's information, that the Cydnus and the Eurotas were not built in the king's, but in the merchants' yards.

contended, that the advance in the rate of victualling men, upon which he had animadverted, and which furnished a strong primâ facie case against the admiralty, was to be found in the estimates upon the table. Then as to the Cydnus and Eurotas frigates, it might be, that he was misinformed as to the place in which they were built; but whether constructed in the merchants', or the king's yards, it was evident, that the admiralty had neglected its duty, for it was its province to take care, that these frigates should be properly constructed, and of the best materials. So that the inaccuracy of his information, was no acquittal of the admiralty, from the charge which the undeniable condition of these frigates involved.

thought, that as it appeared from the statement of the gentlemen opposite that a material reduction-of expense in the naval department was to be expected within the year, the estimates before the House should not be voted for more than six months, that was until June next. Thus the House, instead of trusting to promises of economy, would retain the means of enforcing its observance, which would be a much better mode of doing its duty towards the country than by voting from confidence in any ministers a larger sum of money than was actually necessary, and the gentlemen opposite themselves stated that the sum mentioned in the estimates was not at all likely to be required for the expenditure of the year.

justified his former statements, which he contended were in no degree shaken by the speech of the secretary of the admiralty. For his primâ facie case still remained unanswered, namely, that the sum of 2,765,000l. required by the estimates for the expenditure of the ordinary of the navy was not fairly accounted for, and that it was unwarrantable to advance the salaries of the civil officers of the navy, of the secretaries of the admiralty for instance, upon the conclusion of peace, when the duties of those officers must be so considerably reduced; that it was not just to give to those officers, a larger salary in peace, when we had but few ships at sea, than they had when our ships covered the ocean [Here there were cries of Spoke! spoke! when Mr. Freemantle rose and moved an adjournment, and thus a new question being before the House, Mr. Tierney acquired a right to speak again, and proceeded]. He challenged the hon. secretary to an examination of the several items of the estimates, and by voting for the adjournment the hon. secretary would, as well as himself, have a better opportunity of collecting more complete information. But if it were the fact, as the hon. secretary assumed, that the labour of the officers connected with the admiralty was greater in peace than in war, how came it that those salaries should have been heretofore so much reduced in peace? How came it, for instance, that the salary of the secretary of the admiralty himself should have been always reduced one-fourth—as it must still continue, thanks to the decision of that House.' But looking to all the official departments connected with the admiralty, lie would ask, in which of them could any augmentation of labour be expected during peace? For instance, how could the navy pay office after we had been now six months at peace, have more trouble than when we had above 100,000 seamen to pay? At present we had only 33,000 seamen to pay, and yet the salaries of this office were augmented. The same question might be put with respect to the victualling office and the dock yards. Some increase of business might be looked for in the dock yards of Woolwich and Deptford for a short time, in consequence of the shipping to be paid oft'; but surely no increase of trouble could be said to take place elsewhere. But the most extraordinary part of the hon. secretary's speech, in which he endeavoured to make an ingenious run out of a bad case, and in which he contrived to get a great shout after him, was in the assertion that an increase had uniformly taken place in the ordinary of the navy upon the conclusion of every peace since the treaty of Utrecht. This assertion Mr. Tierney maintained to be quite absurd, and said, that no precedent could be found for the extraordinary proposition which those estimates contained, for increasing the salaries of public offices at the very moment when their business was materially diminished, and the prices of all articles materially reduced.

remarked that the right hon. gentleman had said, that he (Mr. C.) had retreated behind his own fire, but he would say that the right hon. gentleman had contrived to retreat behind his own smoke, [Hear, hear!] The right hon. gentleman had been so good as to compliment him for ingenuity, while in the same breath he charged him with folly, by attributing to him a statement which he never made. He had called on him (Mr. Croker) to prove his case item by item, and yet declared his intention of voting against going into the committee, the only place in which it could prove it. The right hon. gentleman had totally misrepresented his speech by stating, that he had argued that no reduction ought to take place in the first year of peace; he had said and he thought no such thing. He admitted that some reductions ought, and he knew even that they had already taken place, but it was only in the committee that those reductions could be stated and explained: differences of opinion on the details of so voluminous a subject would necessarily arise, but it was only in a committee they could be discussed. He was ready to go through the detail item by item. He hoped that the great mass of the estimates would be found fit for the sanction of parliament, but if any item should appear objectionable, he had shown in his own case the disposition to bow with becoming respect to the judgment of any great. body of that House.

The motion of adjournment was negatived, and that for the committee carried; but on the motion of lord Castlereagh the committee was postponed until Wednesday.