moved for leave to bring in a bill, to amend the several laws relative to the Transportation of Offenders. This measure he said, he should have brought forward sooner, if he were not in hopes of being able to frame a bill for consolidating all the acts upon the subject of transportation, from that of George 1st, downwards. But this consolidation being found impracticable, it became necessary to provide for the continuance of the act of last session, which would expire on the 1st of May, some omissions in which it was intended to supply. It was also meant to introduce a clause for providing inspectors, at the ports to which the transports are usually sent for embarkation, such inspectors to act intermediately between the gaolers, or persons bringing transports, and the commanders of the vessels in which such transports were to proceed to their destination.

expressed a hope, that this measure would not be hurried through the House, but that ample time would be afforded for the consideration of the important subject, to which it referred, Upon this subject it was knows, that the highest authorities entertained an opinion, altogether adverse to the principle of transportation, and with that opinion he himself fully concurred. For in his judgment, a much better plan might be devised for the reform of convicts at home, and at a considerably cheaper rate. But the fact was, that transports were never reformed at Botany Bay, where the whole system of management was of such an opposite tendency, that the number of executions in that settlement, far exceeded the average of natural deaths. He would, however, enter more at length upon the second reading of the bill, which, he trusted, would not be proposed for some time.

said, that he had no wish to hurry the Bill, but yet, as the hon. member objected to the principle of transportation altogether, he could not see how his purpose could derive any advantage from the delay of this measure.

observed, that although he did not agree with his hon. friend as to the expediency of abolishing transportation altogether, he thought that the system ought to be very materially modified. The learned gentleman asked, whether governor Macquarrie had yet returned any answer to the letter which, he understood, was some time since addressed to him, from the proper office, inclosing the report of a committee of that House, upon the subject of transportation to Botany Bay, and the general conduct of that colony? If such answer had been received (and he expressed a wish to have his question communicated to the under secretary of state, for the colonial department, who was not then in his place) he thought it desirable to have that answer laid before the House.

observed, that the present act expired on the 1st of May. It was, therefore, necessary to proceed with the bill, and avoid delays that might postpone it beyond the date he had mentioned.

said, the bill was passed for a short time, to give opportunity for consideration; and now, as the holydays would soon come on, the bill, of course, could not be interrupted: but why not bring it in earlier.

said, his reasons for not bringing it in earlier were merely, that he had devoted much time and labour to the consideration of it, with the view of consolidating the different acts of parliament; and he had found it impracticable to introduce it sooner.

commented on the hon. gentleman's labours, which appeared to him to have been in vain. Certainly the present bill could not be intended as a permanent measure.

observed, that he believed the plan for reforming offenders at home, by solitary confinement, &c. was found chimerical, as those connected with the penitentiary system could, he understood, fully testify. He himself thought, and his opinion was supported by some able writers, that it would be advisable to have convicts employed to work in the open air, which would certainly be more for the advantage of their health, and most probably tend to diminish that hostility to society, which was too often the source of vice.

Leave was given to bring in the bill, which was accordingly brought in, and read a first time.

presented a petition from the Debtors confined in York gaol, stating "that they were imprisoned for debts which they were unable to pay; that their insolvency was created by the pressure of the times, and by unavoidable misfortunes; that they were ready to divide their effects among their creditors, whom they were anxious to satisfy by all the means in their power: and that under such circumstances, they heard with alarm of the introduction of a measure into that House, which they understood was calculated to deprive them of the clemency of the existing law, and to condemn them to such measure of imprisonment, as any capricious or cruel creditor might think proper to inflict. But the petitioners earnestly prayed that the House would be pleased to take their unhappy case into consideration, and save them from the visitation of such aggravated calamity, as they were led to apprehend from the measure alluded to." The learned gentleman, in presenting this petition, took occasion to express a hope, that the House and the committee to whom this subject was referred, would not, in considering the evils which might have resulted from the existing law, entertain the idea of recurring to the former system, under which such intolerable injustice, such unparalleled inhumanity, had taken place. In providing against fraudulent debtors he hoped the House, in its justice and humanity, would never overlook the case of the unfortunate debtors from whom this petition proceeded, and he much feared that such unfortunate debtors were but too numerous, especially in the present state of the country. Therefore, while he wished, as much as any man, to guard against fraud, he would never allow misfortune to become the object of punishment, and particularly of punishment as severe as any callous or thoughtless creditor was at liberty to inflict upon his debtor under the old law of debtor and creditor, to which he confidently hoped that parliament would never consent to recur.

The petition was referred to the committee appointed to consider the effects of the insolvent debtors act.

, with a view to the motion of which he had given notice, with respect to the office of the Third Secretary of State, moved, "That there be laid before this House, an account of the salaries, allowances, new year's gifts, and perquisites received in the offices of the secretaries of state for the home, foreign, and war departments, in the years ended the 5th of January 1815 and 5th of January 1816, distinguishing each year, and the different departments, and the persons by whom the salaries have been received."—Ordered.

gave notice of his intention to propose a bill, for regulating the expenditure of the Civil List in future, in pursuance of the recommendation of the report of the committee of last session, which bill was meant to include a provision for the appointment of certain officers, to check the expenditure in the several departments. This bill, however, he did not think he should be able to bring forward until after the recess, as the estimates had been referred back to the several officers, with a view to consider what practicable reductions could be made, consistently with a due regard to the interests of the Crown, and the allowance of such an establishment as should provide against any application to parliament hereafter, for the discharge of debts. As to the present debt of 277,000l. upon the civil list, he was happy to say, that the payment of that sum would be provided for without any application to parliament, namely, from droits of the Crown, a consi- derable part of which had accrued since the discussion of this subject last session.

observed, that as those droits of the Crown, of which he should be glad to hear a satisfactory explanation, would be available for some other purpose, if not required for the discharge of the debts of the civil list, he could not see that that House or the public, had "so much reason to rejoice as the noble lord professed to feel. But the estimates were, it appeared, referred back for the purpose of reduction—So that an after-thought had occurred to the noble lord on this subject; [A laugh, and Hear, hear!]—and he should be very glad to find, however unlooked-for, that a similar after-thought occurred to the noble lord with respect to various other departments, so that something more than the mere show or profession of economy should appear in the administration. But, it seemed, the noble lord's intended bill was in pursuance of the report of the committee of the last session, of the proceedings of which he (Mr. T.) decidedly disapproved; and he fancied that the grounds of his disapprobation would now be pretty generally acknowledged. His intention, therefore, was, to move for the appointment of a new committee, to consider the whole of the subjects referred to the committee of last session and the report of which might be made before the introduction of the noble lord's bill, which it seemed could not be brought forward until after the holydays. Thus the report of the committee which he proposed would serve to guide the judgment of the House in considering the noble lord's bill; but he (Mr. T.) thought the House must now be fully satisfied, that unless the committee which he proposed should be invested with powers to send for persons and papers the inquiry would be ineffectual.

said, that he had no objection to produce an account of the droits alluded to; but with respect to the right hon. gentleman's intended motion, he thought it would be more satisfactory to the House, and to the right hon. gentleman himself, to have the views of government upon this important question made known before that motion was brought forward.

observed, that there was an understanding between the chancellor of the exchequer and himself, last session, that if any new excess should arise upon the civil list, the report of the committee of last session should be referred to another Committee. The noble lord, in founding his bill upon the report of the committee of last session, proceeded upon the assumption of facts, which he (Mr. T.) utterly denied. The noble lord might, however, bring forward his bill as soon as he chose, while he (Mr. T.) would make his motion as soon as he chose, and if the noble lord was not on the alert he (Mr. T.) was very likely to be before him.

asked, whether the noble lord had any objection to produce a statement of the droits of the Crown, from the commencement of the war, together with their application and the amount of the residue. He meant merely a statement of the totals.

said, he knew of no objection whatever.

, referring to the negociations at Vienna, said he wished to ask the noble lord opposite a question upon the subject of the Abolition of the Slave Trade. In a paragraph of those negociations, it was agreed, that the conferences upon the question of the slave trade should not be broken up altogether then, but that the ministers of the different powers should meet again upon the subject in London or Paris. He was desirous of being informed what steps had been taken in consequence of this resolution.

stated, that at the period of the conferences at Vienna, only four powers, namely, those of Russia, Austria, Prussia, and Great Britain, had agreed to abandon the slave trade altogether. France had not then gone this length. Last year, however, she had followed the example of the other powers, and consequently all became pledged to the same course. In consequence of this pledge, by command of the Prince Regent, a note had been addressed to the ministers of the four powers resident in this country, requesting that they would apply to their respective courts for instructions to hold the conference alluded to. He hoped but little delay would take place before those instructions were received, and he could assure his hon. friend, that as soon as they were received, no time should be lost on his part, in assembling, according to the stipulation at Vienna, and in laying before the House the result of their proceedings.

asked, whether there was any prospect or even a glimpse of hope, that the Spanish government would be induced to concur in the abolition of the slave trade? He would not now discuss whether Spain ought or might have been induced to acquiesce in this benevolent object, but he could not help thinking that while that country persisted in this odious traffic, the endeavours of all the other powers must be nugatory.

said, that no one would hail with more sincere joy than himself, the concurrence of Spain in this measure, but he was sorry to say, that the endeavours heretofore used to induce that concurrence, had been unsuccessful. Spain was pledged at Vienna to discontinue the slave trade in eight years, and to that pledge she adhered in all the discussions, which had since taken place. He felt indeed, great apprehensions that that government would not depart from this pledge. But notwithstanding that perseverance, he could not suppose it would be deemed consistent with sound policy or common sense to depart from our relations with this government with respect to other objects. That Spain might yet be induced to relax upon this point was his wish and hope, but yet, from what had already occurred, he regretted to say, that he could, not hold out any expectations upon the subject.

, adverting to some observations which he had made on a preceding evening, with respect to the expense of victualling the men at Milford Haven, said, he wished to call the attention of the House to a subject which certainly required some satisfactory answer from ministers. He alluded to a charge which appeared in the navy estimates for the present year, for victualling the officers and ship-keepers in ordinary. The number of men so victualled was 4,857 at 1s. 6d. per diem, making a total of 132,960l. In the estimates of 1813 there appeared a charge for precisely the same description of men, at 1s. per diem. Now, if in 1813, 1814, and 1315, 1s. a day was thought to be a sufficient sum, he should like to know what possible reason could be urged for augmenting it to 1s. 6d. when the price of every article was so greatly diminished? On a former occasion when he mentioned the subject, it was thought to be a sufficient answer from the other side of the House, that it did not belong to the admiralty department, and a great outcry was raised, as if a prodigious triumph had been obtained by the government. For his own part, he must say, he did not care in what department the abuse was committed; it was enough that the abuse existed to induce that House to look into the subject. He found, upon looking into the estimates, that a considerable number of men were victualled at the same rate. He was informed, however, from good authority, that the actual expense of victualling the men at Milford Haven was not more than 1s. a day, for beef, bread, and beer, and that the surplus was a perquisite belonging to the officer who provided their food. The gross amount of expense which the country had to pay, between the rate of 1s. and 1s. 6d. was 44,000l. ; and certainly if no more satisfactory information was given upon the subject than what had already been afforded, he should feel it his duty, when the matter came forward in a committee, to move the reduction of the whole expenditure to what it had cost the public in preceding years. The hon. member concluded by moving for a statement of the number of men in the several departments of the naval service, including the transport and custom-house service, victualled by any agreement or allowance other than by the competition of public tender.

said, he must distinctly deny that the answer given to the hon. member on a former evening was, that the particular case he alluded to did not belong to the admiralty department. The answer was, that unless the House permitted the estimates to go into a committee, it would be impossible to give those detailed explanations which were necessary; and that what the hon. member called a primâ facie case against the navy estimates, was in fact no primâ facie case at all. The hon member stated that he had received information that the men in Milford Haven could be victualled for one shilling a day, or a little more: but he should recollect that the charge in the estimate of one shilling and sixpence per diem referred to the harbours of Portsmouth, Plymouth, Chatham, Sheerness and other ports, and not at all to Milford Haven. He believed there were not ten men at Milford Haven, whose victualling was included in the item in the navy estimates then before the House. It was not quite fair, therefore, to take one of the cheapest places in Wales, and calculate the expense of other districts upon the charge which would be incurred in that particular port. Besides, the hon. member, in his estimate of what was necessary to victual men, included only beef, beer, and bread, forgetting, or probably not knowing, that besides those articles, every man in the navy received various other things, such as butter, cocoa, wine, lemon-juice, vegetables, &c. Since the statement which had been made by the hon. member on a former evening, he had taken the trouble to make a particular inquiry of the meritorious officer who was at the head of the victualling department, who assured him that one shilling and sixpence per diem was the real average expense of the amount of rations which each man received. Even in Milford Haven, where there was one open and avowed competition, the charge by contract was one shilling and four-pence halfpenny, notwithstanding the cheapness of the place. With respect to the motion of the hon. member, he certainly could have no objection to produce all the papers he required, or any other which he might think necessary, and it was his firm conviction that whenever the question was thoroughly discussed, it would be found that one shilling and sixpence per diem was not more than enough to cover the expense of the average ration of each man.

, having lately come from Milford Haven, said he could give some idea, from personal observation, of the price of provisions at that place for the last four months. Beef was from 2½d to 3½d. per pound; butter 5d. , and pork 24s. per cwt.

wished to know whether any thing was furnished to the men, under the present contract, which was not furnished in the years 1813,1814, and 1815? If not, it made no difference in the argument, and it would remain for the hon. secretary to show why those articles which were supplied at 1s. a day in those years, should now require 1s. 6d. when the prices of all commodities had fallen so much.

expressed his readiness to enter into the fullest details on the subject in the committee.

said, that navy contracts, which had been taken at a large price, might not have expired, and the contractors were entitled to the full benefit of the fall in the market. He could not but deprecate the querulous and captious objections which were made by gentlemen on the other side of the House.

denied that there was any just ground for the difference between the charge of 1813 and that now made.

said, that the package, stowage, and carriage, connected with victualling in ordinary, added to the price of the provisions, amounted to about 1s. 6 d. per man. That was the calculation made last year, and it was perfectly correct.

said, that, with respect to what had fallen from the hon. secretary on the subject of a contract (if indeed any contract existed) he laboured under a mistake. The fact was, that whatever species of agreement had been made, was entered into when provisions were extremely cheap—and then came the objection of his hon. friend to granting an increased allowance for the support of these men. To that objection no answer could be given; nor, indeed, could he conceive what proper answer could be offered. In 1811 and 1813, when provisions were from 30 to 40 per cent. dearer than they were now, one shilling per man was allowed for victualling those persons at Milford; but now the rate allowed for victualling them was increased, in a greater degree than the price of provisions had fallen. The allowance was increased 50 per cent.; one shilling and sixpence being now granted for the subsistence of each man. He knew of no rise in any of the minor articles, connected with bread, meat, and beer, that could justify such an increase of allowance.

said, the learned gentleman did not appear to understand the subject which was before the House. There was not one word in it relating to a contract. He should be ready, when the House went into a committee on the navy estimates, to give the most ample information that gentlemen could desire.

said, it was not he, but the hon. gentleman who laboured under an error. He never said there was a contract—he rather denied it; but the hon. gentleman had stated there was a contract.

observed, that there appeared to be a contract and no contract, in this case. He would show that it stood in that predicament. The hon. member for Pembroke had stood forward, without being sufficiently acquainted with the facts of the case. In what he (Mr. Baring) had said, he meant not to cast any reflec tion on the character of Mr. Williams, which, doubtless, was very respectable. He believed, however, that Mr. Williams contracted with himself to victual the men under his command. This was an abuse that ought never to be suffered; because the authority of the commander, in such a case, might prevent the men from exercising a good and wholesome check over his proceedings, with respect to the quantity and quality of the provisions supplied to them. Now five months ago, those men were victualled for 1s. per day; and he would ask the hon. gentleman, or any other member, to state a good reason for increasing the allowance to 1s. 6 d. when provisions had fallen in price? Either the men were kept in a state of starvation formerly, or they now received more than they ought to have. This matter required an explanation on the part of government. From every thing that had passed, it appeared, that Mr. Williams, having a salary of 200 l. per annum, made a perquisite of 1,000l. a year upon his contract. The men in ordinary did not get the lemon-juice; the supply was merely bread, meat, and beer; and there was no difference whatever in the quantity of supply last year from what it was at this moment.

disclaimed any personal acquaintance with Mr. Williams; but, as he believed him to be a meritorious individual, he thought it was his duty to defend his character from the attack that had been made on it.

said, he never meant to insinuate that the fault lay with Mr. Williams, but with that board which suffered such a proceeding.

The motion was then agreed to.

next rose to move for "a statement of the expense of building and fitting for sea the frigates Cydnus and Eurotas; also a statement of the time when such frigates were fit for service, and of the condition in which they at present are." The hon. gentleman observed, that when the country was paying immense sums for the building of ships, it was right that the House should know distinctly what became of them. The Cydnus and Eurotas, which had cost a great sum of money, were built in the year 1813; and, he believed, they were now either breaking up for fire-wood, or condemned for that purpose. If this system were pursued, what advantage could the country derive from an immense expenditure for the construction of vessels that were not fit for use in the course of two or three years? When he mentioned this subject before, he was told, with great triumph, that the Cydnus and Eurotas were built in merchants' yards. He did not care where they were built, nor by whom. He brought the circumstance forward as a proof that gross neglect was imputable to those who thus lavished the public money on articles that were worthless. If those ships were, after three years service, only fit for fire-wood, those at the head of the naval department were guilty of inexcusable neglect. There might be other ships in the same situation, but he would confine his motion to the Cydnus and Eurotas.

had no objection to the production of the statement moved for. With respect to the system of building in the merchants' yards, which he had touched on last night, and into which, on a future occasion, he would go more at large, he had to inform the hon. gentleman that it was abandoned altogether. That erroneous system, which had cost millions, that, but for its adoption, would have been saved to the country, was, by the new arrangements, abandoned, not for a time, but for ever.

could not avoid expressing the great pleasure he felt at the compliment which had just been paid to the transcendant merits of his noble friend, earl St. Vincent. He well remembered, some years ago, an attack was made, in that House, by a gentleman deceased, on the conduct of his noble friend. It was repelled by the gallant admiral near him (admiral Markham) and several other naval characters. That attack was pointed in such a manner against earl St. Vincent. that it might have produced a vote of censure from that House—nay, it might have led, as perhaps was intended, to his impeachment. That accusation was made almost on the sole ground that the noble earl had not built ships in the merchants' yards. But they had happily lived to see the day, when the policy of the noble earl was adopted in its full extent—when every man, conversant with the subject, deprecated the building of ships of war in merchants' yards. He thought the services of that noble earl at sea (and it was impossible to describe his merits more strongly) were not greater than those he had performed for his country, by his civil administration of the navy; and, above all, by that rigid system of economy which he had introduced—which, if it had been followed up by those who succeeded him, would have saved the country an expenditure of many millions.

said, he had always admitted, that the principles introduced by the noble earl had great merit. This was never denied—on the contrary, they had been long acted on. Above five years had elapsed since a ship of the line had been built in a merchants' yard; still, it might be convenient, to have a few sloops or a few frigates, constructed in private yards, in cases of emergency. It would be better to do that than to send ships of the line to be built there, while they threw away their own ships and docks for the construction of small vessels. For sixteen years past, the admiralty had been endeavouring to work the necessary reforms in the departments with which it was connected. He would be ready, when the proper time came, to point out the circumstances which had retarded the accomplishment of so desirable an object.

, as we understood, expressed a hope, that the building of ships of war in India would not be abandoned. He wished to know how the Malacca frigate, which was entirely built of Indian wood, had answered?

said, that the yard at Bombay was still kept open, and a certain proportion of vessels would be built there. But the hon. member would see, that it was a system which ought not to be pushed too far. In the estimates of the present year would be found a charge for building a ship of the line at Bombay. With respect to the Malacca he could not, on the moment, give any information.

said, there were papers in the admiralty which would give every information relative to that vessel. The officer who sent home the wood of which the Malacca was composed, pointed out, specifically, the particular purpose for which each species of timber was proper.

again observed, that he could not tell where the Cydnus and Eurotas were built. Let them have been built where so ever they might, it was clear to him, that, if they were rotten in the course of three years, gross neglect was imputable to the admiralty, who had thus shamefully wasted the public money.

said, those connected with the admiralty would show, at the proper time, that they were not guilty of negligence or of a wasteful expenditure of the public money. One of the ships in question had done her work very well. On her first cruise she had captured a French frigate, which was now in our service.

The taking a prize on her first cruise, is no answer to that of which I complain.

The motion was then agreed to.