said, he was afraid the proposed duty upon the importation of cheese would operate not as a protecting one, but amount almost to a prohibition, which would have the effect of rendering that article of subsistence, so important to the poorer classes, much dearer than it now was. He admitted that it was very proper to protect particular branches of industry, but that protection ought not to be at the expense of the interests of the whole. No doubt there were some agricultural districts which had materially suffered by the unrestricted importation of foreign cheese, but then there were other districts which were greatly benefited by it. That part of the country, for example, which he had the honour to represent, was not a dairy country, and would therefore derive no advantage from the regulations of the present bill. It certainly struck him that the proposed rate of duty was too high, as it was intended to impose a duty of 10s. 6d?. per cwt. on all foreign cheese imported in British ships, and 13s. upon all which was imported in foreign ships. He should therefore move as an amendment to that clause, that the former be reduced to 8s., and the latter to 10s.

said, that he had endeavoured, in fixing the rate of duty, to avoid, as much as possible, any thing which might tend to make the measure operate as a prohibition, and he had therefore taken it in reference to the proportion between the prices of butter and cheese, namely, at about one half. He could assure the committee that nothing was further from his intention than to make it a prohibitory act, and if it should prove so, which he did not anticipate, it would be necessary to re-consider the subject.

was not friendly to duties generally on articles of necessity; but the effect of the butter protection would be to make the butter dealers in Holland turn their attention chiefly to cheese. This was, therefore, a particular case. One effect of the protecting duty would be to give more means to the farmer of employing the poor. This question of the cheese trade did not relate particularly to Ireland; but had grown up out of the regulation for the butter trade. In relieving Ireland we must not press too much on interests in England. The present measure was only to be considered as a measure of experiment; and nothing of a prohibitory nature he believed was intended. We had only to consult our own interests by a protecting, and not by a prohibitory duty.

thought, that however necessary it might be to support one branch of the agricultural interest, it should not be done at the expense of other interests.

observed, that the object of the measure was not revenue.

said, that if they proceeded too far on such subjects, they would occasion retaliatory acts by other powers who might also give more favourable terms to other countries. More harm than good might, therefore, be done to the landed interests.

thought the best policy was, without falling into the mistake of thinking that foreign powers were to be conciliated or irritated according to the rate of duty imposed, to fix it at such a rate as our own interests required. He objected to the amendment.

The amendment was rejected, and the original resolution agreed to.

wished to take notice of a public expense which he was sorry to find occasion to bring before the House. The building now used for the office of the secretary of state for the home department was one of the few old buildings that preserved a respectable appearance. It was now undergoing considerable external alterations by buttresses of yellow bricks, which every gentleman, in coming down to the House, must have observed. It appeared, before these alterations were commenced, to be a stable building, and very likely to last long. This was one of the first acts of the new board of works, and as it was not very creditable to their judgment, he only wished to know if it had the sanction of the treasury.

was not surprised at his hon. friend's question, because he was as much astonished as any other person could be when he saw the front of the building in question covered with scaffolding, more especially at a season when it was desirable to place as few obstructions as possible in the way of members going to and from the House. In truth, the matter had been complained of to him by many of his hon. friends, to whom he had given the same answer he was now about to give to the hon. gentleman, namely that the proceeding was wholly without his knowledge, or that of the treasury. He had, however, taken the liberty of sending for Mr. Bacon, the chief clerk of the board of works, who was a most intelligent man, to question him upon the subject, and from him he understood that the work had been undertaken at this inconvenient season, in consequence of the danger which existed from the dilapidated state of the front of the building, and the apprehension that some of the large stones of which the buttresses were composed, falling on the passengers. This gentleman was not aware, however, of the source from whence the instructions came, that the building in its appearance should undergo such a radical reform. The alteration, however, was by no means with the concurrence of the treasury.

said, the thanks of the House were due to the hon member who had brought this subject forward. He decidedly condemned the bad taste in which the repairs were making; but that was not all, if the board of works had expressly sought for an opportunity of doing their job twice over, they could not have fixed upon a better time than the present. It was his misfortune to know something about building, and he would venture to affirm, that at this period of the year it was impossible to make good masonry. No cement would harden properly, and whatever might be done now, would have to be done again in a very short time. He trusted the hon. gentleman would not stop here, but would submit some motion for inquiry to the House, by which it would be ascertained upon what principle the board of works had presumed to act without the sanction of the treasury.

observed, that it was very probable the board of works had communicated with the treasury upon the subject, and that they were acting under its orders, though he certainly was not prepared to state that the fact was so. With respect to the manner in which the repairs were carrying on, he was certainly as much surprised as his hon. friend could be at them; for he unquestionably considered them as a deformity.

thought the subject was one which ought to be inquired into. The right hon. gentleman had stated that no order had been given by the treasury, but the expense incurred would of course be paid out of the civil list; and according to an act of parliament, no expense exceeding 1000l. could be incurred, without an estimate being first made out and sanctioned by the treasury. He hoped, therefore, his hon. friend would move for papers, to show whether such estimate had been prepared, and what correspondence had taken place between the board of works and the treasury upon the subject.

replied, that he had not asserted that no order was issued by the treasury, but that he was not aware of any one having been issued. He should, indeed, rather imagine, from the correctness of proceeding always observed by the person at the head of the board of works, that such an authority had been duly obtained by him.

begged to disclaim all idea of casting any imputation upon the board of works. He merely stated what he knew of the transaction, in consequence of what had fallen from his hon. friend.

Here the conversation closed, it being understood that Mr. Bankes would, on a future occasion, move for papers upon the subject.

said, it was not his intention to oppose the second reading of this bill, or to throw any obstructions in the way of its progress at present. When the bill came into a committee, however, he should take an opportunity of moving the insertion of the words "two years," instead of "five years," meaning to limit the duration of the bill to the smaller period. On this occasion he would, with the permission of the House, offer some remarks. He believed this was a subject with which the House was very little acquainted—he meant the state of our settlement at Botany Bay. He did not mean to carry the House back to the period when the original settlement was founded. It was sufficient for him to observe, that for many years the expense of the colony in New South Wales had been extremely burthensome on this country. It was now high time that parliament should endeavour to control this expense, and inquire how far its continuance was consistent with the interests of the kingdom. Previous to 1810, the annual expense of the colony had amounted to 100,000l., but in the year 1810 itself, the estimate of expenses was taken at 175,000l. although it was allowed that the number of convicts had diminished one-third. He had not yet seen the report of the expenses of the years 1811 and 1812, but in all probability they had been much greater. From 1810 to 1812, he understood the number of persons sent to Botany Bay amounted to 600—and from 1812 to 1815 those sent amounted to no less than 2378, making altogether a total of 3000 persons; and he would beg the House to recollect that those individuals were not sent out at less than an expense of 100l. per man. Taking, therefore, the estimate of 1810, at 175,000l. for 2000 convicts which were then in the colony, we now had to provide for 5000, an expense so enormous, that at least it should not be incurred unless under circumstances of peculiar advantage to the country. Now he would ask, what those advantages were? It had been the opinion of all writers upon this subject, that to render punishment good as an example, its effect should be apparent; but the nature of the punishment of transportation had long since lost all its terror, and the fact was, that at this instant there were hundreds of candidates on board the hulks to be sent to Botany Bay. When the practice formerly existed of transporting felons to America, these individuals became mixed with a large population, and became embodied with them, and soon imbibed their industrious habits—but it was reserved for the British parliament to assemble together in one spot three or four thousand felons, for the propagation of the most atrocious crimes. The reformation of the convicts was utterly impossible, because they formed a society exclusively and wholly composed of criminals. How, then, was their reformation to be effected? It was not like the case of New Spain, where a criminal was dropped into a society, consisting of active, industrious, and well-disposed members, where he was lost, as it were, in the mass of correct morals surrounding him, and where he gradually became absorbed in the general system. At Botany Bay, all were equally depraved, and no one, therefore, could set the example to another. Such was the monstrous inconsistency of those who originated the plan, and of the legislature which sanctioned it. He understood that the most vicious profligacy prevailed throughout that colony, and that the whip and the gallows were incessantly employed. He spoke only according to the accounts which had been laid before parliament in 1810. Of the last five years he could know nothing, for no additional information had been presented. But what was the report made by governor Philips? From his account it appeared that the most melancholy vice and immorality prevailed, and that they were not confined merely to the transported felons. The free women settlers in that colony were just as debased and profligate as the convict women. Under all the circumstances of the case, he trusted that parliament or the government would take the subject into its consideration, and provide some remedies for the evils which he had touched upon. It was with this object that he should propose the insertion of two years instead of five, when the bill went into the committee.

said, he would shortly allude to two circumstances on which the last speaker had dwelt at considerable length; namely, the depravity of morals in that colony and the improvement which had been made in the course of the last five years, of which the hon. gentleman seemed not fully aware. The crimes committed in the early years of that colony must necessarily have been great in number; yet it was somewhat satisfactory to learn, from recent intelligence, that morals had been considerably ameliorated, and the catalogue of crimes comparatively small. Some better regulations had been adopted for the prevention of crime and the encouragement of virtuous habits. He felt it his duty to state that the hon. gentleman seemed to be in error respecting the number of punishments, and particularly of executions. Corporal punishments were far from being so frequent as he believed. When the convicts were landed they were consigned partly to families who had settled there, and partly to government. Those who were consigned to families had generally been reformed, and, by the propriety of their conduct, shown the sincerity of their repentance for their former offences. Many of them had been chosen to fill situations of respectability, many of them had returned to this country, and were now, by good conduct, doing honour to the society which they had once disgraced. Those who were consigned to government service were worked in gangs, and for the sake of good order it was sometimes necessary to punish some. Yet so far was this punishment from being inflicted by the overseer, that it could not be done unless by order of a magistrate, and even then only twenty-five lashes were awarded. By reading the reports of the two last years, it would be found that executions were also rare. In that period the whole number condemned to die was twenty, and of these only six had suffered death, the majority of whom were convicted of murder. He would ask the House if this did not, in a great measure, prove the truth of what he was saying? He begged the House would not form a rash opinion respecting the degeneracy of the colony. If they read the returns of the last two years, they would find the number of crimes decreased, that marriages had become frequent, and that now, on good grounds, every hope might be entertained of the progressive amelioration of the colony.

certainly thought transportation was far from being so lenient a mode of punishment as some people imagined. It certainly, in respect to reformation, was infinitely superior to a prison, as there very little chance of reformation was to be had. Two modes might be suggested for diminishing the number of punishments. The first was the education of the children of poor parents. And here he was glad to observe the spirited exertions so happily making by all classes for this interesting object. It was only by enlightening the ignorant that we had any rational hopes of reclaiming the vicious. The other mode was that of appointing a permanent tribunal in London for the trial of minor offences (he meant by these every crime short of murder, forgery, or such aggravated breaches of the law) which he had no doubt would have a better effect than the mode at present, of waiting from one sessions to another. The terror of immediate punishment might in all probability diminish the catalogue of crimes, but the former mode he had proposed was the better calculated to establish virtuous principles.

could not concur with the principles of this bill, as he considered it by no means fitted to produce the effects intended. The improvements which the bill of last year had professed to introduce were really nothing at all, as they consisted only in a name being given to the person who had the superintendance of the colony. Nor did he perceive that mighty improvement in morals of which an hon. member had spoken so highly. There were two points to which he particularly called the attention of the House. The first was the propriety of separating the convicts. In the report of the committee of 1812, a plan had been presented to the House for subdividing the hulks into small divisions, and one had actually been fitted up in that state. He was sorry now to see that plan abandoned, as from the intermixture of the convicts much danger might be apprehended. In the hulks it was well known there were persons of all classes, young and old, some for seven years, some for fourteen, and some waiting to be carried to a distant country for life. Varied as the punishments thus were in proportion to their crimes, it was evident their hardihood must be more or less varied also. It was therefore requisite that a proper distinction should be made between them. The divisions he understood were now to be reduced to six or seven, on pretence of of there being a want of air. He was at Sheerness in June last, and went down to one of the hulks at nine and at twelve o'clock, midnight, but he saw no reason to apprehend any danger from this. In the divisions now proposed, sixty or seventy men would be confined together in one place, the baneful consequences of which were too obvious to require being mentioned. The second point he wished the House to attend to was, the necessity of keeping a careful account of the earnings of the convicts. The act of parliament required officers to keep a particular account of this, but somehow or other it was totally neglected. There was, indeed, an account given, but it was far from being so minute or accurate as he wished it to be, as it merely gave the average of labour performed by the whole, without specifying the particular hulk in which the person belonged, and this account even in its defective state was not checked by the proper person who should do it. Now, what he wished to be done was, that a particular account should be kept of the earnings of each vessel, that thus the public might know which were or were not useful. The House were now told that the convicts were to be removed from Cumberland Fort, in consequence of the work at that place being done. Why, the very same thing was told in 1812, yet the convicts were there still. From the average he had taken of the accounts, he found that a Woolwich the labour of the convicts was equal to paid labour, and at Sheerness two-thirds of paid labour. He could not see that difficulty which some supposed in keeping accounts. With respect to transportation, it was evidently improper to carry persons to Botany Bay who had been adjudged to seven years transportation, as probably the half of their time was over before they could be removed, and it was very hard on the unhappy individual to leave him at the expiry of his servitude in that colony. Hence he approved of penitentiary houses and of hulks, but he would wish the House to adopt some salutary regulations in proportion to their importance.

observed, that the hon. gentleman opposite seemed to think the system of transportation, as it was now acted upon, radically bad; he had better, then, turn his undivided attention to the subject with a view to propose a substitute for it. It had been his (Mr. Addington's) intention to introduce a bill which would consolidate the acts in force relative to this subject, but he had found so many difficulties to encounter, that he was for the moment compelled to desist; he did not, however, ultimately despair of effecting his object. As to the arrangement of the prison-ships, to which his hon. friend had alluded, he assured the House that every attention had been paid to the subject. With respect to the excellent report on the state of the prisons, many of the alterations suggested in it had been adopted, and others were under consideration. His hon. friend had adverted to the model of a prison-ship, which had been exhibited to the board of admiralty, of which he seemed to approve. Now, according to that plan, the convicts would be divided into 40 classes, and very considerable expense and much inconvenience would be created. At present, the convicts on board each of the prison-ships were formed into seven classes. The worst description were placed in the class No. 1, those who were better, in No. 2, and so on, progressively, till they came to No. 7, which contained the best conducted of the prisoners, and the chaplain reported, from time to time, those who, from their improvement in morals, were most worthy of the royal clemency: from this regulation very great benefit had resulted. The hon. gentleman inquired, whether any plan had been devised for affording employment to the convicts? On that point, he was happy to state, that in the course of a very short time sufficient employment would be found for the whole of them. It was difficult to keep an account of their earnings, but measures would be taken to secure as correct an account as possible.

The Bill was then read a second time.

rose and said, he would avail himself of the present opportunity to make a few observations on the reduced estimates. He would first call the attention of the House to the charge for staff and hospital officers, on foreign stations, and contrast the present expenditure with that of former periods. If the figures he should produce were correct, and if the papers laid on their table were accurate, then, he thought, that, by the comparison, he should be able to make out such a case, as would call upon the House not to let those estimates be referred to the committee at all. A paper had been placed on their table, which gave an account of the general and staff-officers, serving on foreign stations, on the 25th of Dec. 1792—and on the 25th Dec. 1802—specifying their rank, situation, and pay.—The total charge (according to this document) for staff officers, &c. on foreign stations, in 1792, was 17,000l.; in 1802, it was 19,500l. being an increase, from 1792, to 1802, of only 2,500l. The pay of general and staff-officers, and those serving in hospitals, on foreign stations, was precisely the same, in 1792, as it was at the present moment. Now, having stated this, he would come very shortly to what the charges were, in the present day, for the same service. In 1802, as he had before observed, the charge for general and staff-officers amounted to 19,500l—it was, in the original estimates, for 1816,163,000l.; and, after making the proposed reduction, it would still be 123,000l. On this statement, he would ask the House, were they ready to recognise, in a period of profound peace, a system by which six times more was demanded, for this particular service, than was called for at the peace of Amiens? [Hear, hear!] Our colonial possessions, he knew, were increased—he would say doubled. He would say, therefore, let the charge be doubled. But he could not see with what propriety, or on what principle, ministers could now ask for 123,000l. to defray the charge of a service, which, in 1802, stood the country in 19,500l. He did not intend to make a regular motion on this point, but he thought the House should refuse going into the committee, until a proper explanation (which he looked upon as impossible) was given by the noble lord. If such an explanation were not entered into, he trusted the estimates would be referred back for further revision. He would now enter into a more minute detail, and state the alterations which, he conceived, ought to be made in the expenditure, under this particular item:—In 1802, the whole charge for general and staff-officers, in the Mediterranean, chiefly confined to Gibraltar, was 1,385l.; having added Malta and the Ionian islands to our possessions, he would triple the charge, which would give 4,149l.; in 1802, the expenses for the same service, in North America, was 6,339l.; as the frontier was very much increased, and rumours of danger were abroad, he would now allow twice that sum, for the service, being 12,778l.; going to the East Indies, he would allow for the Cape, the Mauritius, and the island of Ceylon, the same sum which, in 1802, was paid for the staff at Gibraltar, viz. 1,383l.; which gave a total for those three places of 4,149l. In 1802, the staff-service, in the West Indies, including Jamaica, cost 11,712l.; as several islands were added to our possessions, he would double that sum, being 23,424l.; making an aggregate on the scale he produced, of 44,400l.; this, deducted from the sum now called for, of 123,000l., would make a difference to the public, of 78,600l.; from this latter sum, let there be deducted, for St. Helena, Goree, and Senegal (not that he supposed so large an expense was necessary, but for the sake of round numbers) 8,600l., and there would still remain for the general and staff-officers serving on foreign stations, according to the present estimate, the sum of 70,000l. for which he could by no means account. It seemed to him to be perfectly unnecessary. He should now advert to the staff establishment at the horse-guards. He had taken the liberty of comparing that single item with the expenditure, in the same department, in 1813, when the war was conducted on a most extensive scale—this country having America on her shoulders as well as her European enemies. How then did the case stand? In 1813, the charge for the staff at the horse guards was 17,226l.; at present, even on the reduced estimate, it was 16,427l. Thus, in 1816, when the army was considerably diminished, and all the business connected with the military department was lessened, a saving had been effected of 799l.!!, Unless the noble lord could give some cogent reasons for such lavish expenditure, he conceived it would be the duty of the House to refuse considering the estimates in a committee.

thought the observations of the hon. gentleman would have been better timed in the committee, when the details came to be discussed. He would put the issue of the question, not on a comparison of the amount of the charge for the staff in former times, but on this simple point, whether the staff now proposed exceeded or not the necessities of the case? The papers before the House contained only the reductions which had taken, or were to take place, in general officers. The reason of that was plain; for without having had a communication with the officers commanding on foreign stations, it would have been mere delusion to pretend to state what reductions in adjutants general, quarter masters general, &c. were likely to be effected. A communication had been made to those commanders, in which they had been desired to turn their attention to that subject, and to assign reasons for the suppression or continuance of certain appointments. Without such information, it would be impossible, at home, to fix what reductions should take place in distant stations. If the hon. gentleman compared the estimates of former years with those on the table, he would see, that the chief difference was occasioned by the absence of all the minor items to which he had alluded. In 1792 there were only three head surgeons in the hospitals in the West Indies. Would it be proper to trust the health of the present force to so small a number? It must not be forgotten, that with the increase of colonies and of garrisons, the number of staff officers must be augmented. As to the staff officers at home, the office of the commander in chief should be considered as a public department. He trusted that he would be able in the committee to justify the charge proposed.

did not know whether this was a proper or an improper time for the discussion of this matter; but he was sure the noble lord had given no answer whatever to the questions that had been put to him. His hon. friend could not comprehend why so enormous an increase should take place on the foreign staff: he admitted that reductions had taken place in some instances, but none in the branch which had called forth his inquiries. No answer whatever had been given, and he believed none could be given. Gentlemen on the ministerial side always acted from the most conscientious motives; they had carried economy to the utmost point of saving; yet discussion had effected some savings that they never seemed to have contemplated at first; and he would venture to say, that the more we discussed the more we should save. He gave them credit for the reductions they had already consented to, for he believed they had cost them much debate, and a long struggle among themselves. Could any body believe that the estimates had in some instances trebled since 1802, though we had no longer an enemy, or the appearance of an enemy? On a broad principle, the argument of his hon. friend was unanswerable. If the House wished to establish any thing satisfactory to the country, they would immediately enter into a select committee, to see in earnest what could be done. The noble lord had said, he should refer to the general officers abroad; but could any thing be more unsatisfactory than this?— as if the generals could feel any propensity to reduce a part of their own dependents! He had no wish to take from the salary of the duke of York; that should, if it were possible, be continued, if not for the duties of the station, at least as a fair compliment to his royal highness for the zeal and ability with which, during the war, he had conducted the business of his department. But what had this to do with the commander-in-chief's staff? or what to do with that which the noble lord with great gravity called a department of government? There ought to be a total abolition of all the rest, except the duke's salary. How was the business carried on in former times? And why (to come to the old battle of a preceding evening) was there any necessity for this third secretary? It was a scandalous waste of the public money, and a complete mockery to talk of economy, under such a lavish expenditure. He did not accuse ministers of any corrupt motive; if he thought them guilty of that, he should proceed in another way; but he did accuse them of a perfect indifference to saving. They carried on war just as their pleasure led them: any sums, however great, they asked for and obtained; and if any gentleman like himself who wished to check this career of extravagance and ruin, objected to the measures that were pursued, he was immediately accused of a friendship for Buonaparté, of jacobin principles, or modern philosophy, and treated with scorn and derision, while ministers had only to ask and have. But times were sadly altered now: and the only question was, how to make both ends meet. He gave ministers credit for the little saving they had permitted; it was more than he expected: but still he must view it with a jealous eye, because, admitting the full extent of it, we were three times worse off than in any former peace. He saw that the noble lord opposite was going to say something in answer to what he had taken the liberty of stating. He therefore would stop to afford him the opportunity, and he hoped his speech now would be more satisfactory than his speeches in general were.

said, he was forced to repeat his former caution against considering the present estimates as estimates for any longer period than the year for which they were drawn up. Had the right hon. gentleman who spoke last employed his excellent understanding upon a deliberate consideration of the subject, and given due weight to what had been so often stated by ministers, he would have been convinced of this, and would have refrained from making some of the general observations in which he indulged. The right hon. gentleman took credit to himself, in the opposition he had excited for the reduction in the estimates that had already taken place. That reduction, he was willing to allow, was considerable; and a farther reduction might be anticipated, although to what amount could not yet be determined. When the original estimates were first presented, it had been impossible to fix upon any lower amount than was done. The statements that government now presented were formed upon the anticipation of a year to come, the broken period of the current year constituting a part of it. The hon. gentlemen opposite might take credit to themselves for compelling a review of them, and he did not wish to deprive them of their self-gratulations on the subject: but he would declare that the same reduction would have taken place, though they had given him their entire acquiescence without objection or inquiry. He entirely concurred in the opinion expressed by his noble friend near him (lord Palmerston) that all the reductions that might be effected in the staff on foreign stations could not be known till the general officers commanding on those stations should be consulted, nor did he see that it was liable to the objection made to it by the right hon. gentleman. How could it be known, but from officers on the spot, what number of assistants they would require, or what number the exigencies of their particular situation demanded? The right hon. gentleman brought a sweeping objection to the present government and staff appointments of the army, by asking why it was to stand on a different footing now than it did formerly. The office of commander-in-chief and the staff at head-quarters, the office of secretary at war, and that filled by his noble friend (lord Palmerston), were all considered by him as existing for the command of the army. The office of secretary at war was now abolished, and the department of third secretary of state was considered as a colonial department. The secretary at war, it was well known, had nothing more to do with the discipline and regulation of the army than any member of the House. Would the right hon. gentleman wish the office of commander-in-chief to be abolished too? This office was now more necessary than ever, and the advantages that had arisen from it to our army were incalculable. Nothing had changed so much as the character and discipline of our military force within the short period that had passed since 1792. Before that time, a British army, assembled under the same general, had no more uniformity of movements, of discipline, and appearance in its various regiments, than one composed of the troops of different sovereign states. Let any one consider what was its present state—the facility with which it could perform all its operations in concert—the perfect uniformity of tactics that it possessed—and he would acknowledge how much had been done, and how necessary it was to continue an establishment on which this state of things depended. The right hon. gentleman, he was sure, would not, upon mature reflection, wish it to be abolished, even although it was not filled by that high character to whom the nation and the army were under so many obligations. He would see the impropriety of asserting that these were departments merely belonging to war, after what had been said to-night and on a former occasion. The noble lord said, he could not see the reasonableness of the objections that the right hon. gentleman had to go into a committee. He had expressed an opinion that, in a committee of supply, the only questions that could be agitated were about the sums of money to be voted for particular purposes, and that the number or the quality of the subjects for which that supply was required could not be altered or modified. The right hon. gentleman might easily see the fallacy implied in this opinion. A particular sum might be proposed to be struck off, and then, of course, that head of service must be reduced. He did not doubt but that, when the committee was formed, the gentlemen opposite would be sensible that they could follow this course, and that they would then easily see what they now thought so difficult to be conceived. The committee was, indeed, the only place where the subject could be minutely discussed, and where the propriety of the estimates, item by item, could be judged of. The primâ facie objection of the hon. gentleman who opened the debate, founded on the alarming difference between the staff in the present estimates, and that of 1792 and 1802, would be reduced in the imagination of the House, if they compared the circumstances of those two periods with those of the present time. There was a great difference between our colonial establishments as they existed then and now. We had now nearly thirty colonies: and taking the expenses of the staff at 100,000l., there would not remain much more than 3,000l. He wished, in conclusion, particularly to impress upon the House that the present estimates were not intended to express the extent of our permanent establishments, but merely the establishment of the present year, and that as soon as communications had been had with the officers on foreign stations, they would be very considerably altered.

said, he was led to believe that the reduction was carried too far already [Hear, hear!]. He did not mean to apply this expression to our establishments in genera!, but only to a particular instance. He alluded to Jamaica, where there was only to be a commander of the forces, with no other general officer. He was of opinion that one general officer was insufficient for a station where there were between 3 and 4,000 men of a garrison, besides 4 or 5,000 militia, a great proportion of the troops being negroes; who might require a vigilant superintendance. He did not know the major-general who enjoyed that appointment; but he might be, from his rank in the army, an officer who had not seen service. With regard to the horse-guards, he gave it as his opinion, that the directions and command of the army could not be placed in better hands than in those of the illustrious person at the head of that department. He believed that neither the right hon. gentleman near him (Mr. Tierney) nor any other member of the House wished the direction of the army to be taken from that royal personage, and placed more immediately under the influence of government. In the hands of his royal highness it was placed at a distance from political interests, and could not, with probability, be made an engine for influencing the legislature. He believed there never was a time in any of the former periods of our history, when there was less connexion between the government and the army than at present.

was surprised at the unconstitutional doctrine stated by the hon. general, if he understood him right; and begged leave to ask him if he considered the army as independent of the government, and removed from the influence and direction of responsible ministers [Hear, hear!].

repeated his former statement, that the army under the command of the royal duke was less liable to be used as a means of political influence than if it were under an officer, who, depending more upon ministers might be more disposed to adopt their partialities, and to support their measures.

protested that he had the utmost respect for his royal highness the duke of York, from whom the army had derived the greatest benefit, but, in a constitutional point of view, he could never consent to recognize the doctrine of the hon. general.

said, the right hon. gentleman must know, that what he meant was, that there was in the present case less to be apprehended of influence in that House, arising from the patronage of the army.

declared, that he should be ten times more jealous of that influence, when the army was commanded by one of the royal family, than when it was under the command of his Majesty's ministers.

compared the expense of the office of commander in chief in 1807, with its present expense. In 1807, with an army of 260,000 men, the expense was 7,638l. Now, with an army of 149,000 men the expense was 16,295l.—Whence did, the necessity for this increase arise? The noble lord had talked of the British troops of former times, as if they had been trained bands, forgetting the victories of Blenheim, Fontenoy, &c. which had been so gloriously achieved by them. Adverting to the other estimates, the hon. gentleman particularly dwelt on that for the royal waggon train. In the last year above 2000 horses had been bought for this service, at an expense of 66,965l. It was natural to suppose that some of these horses would be re-sold as unnecessary, and so they had been. The number was three, and the public benefitted by the sale in the enormous sum of 15 guineas! The hon. gentleman then referred to the half pay, and complained in the name of the officers who had been reduced in 1802 and 1803, that they had not received the allowances to which they were, in his opinion, entitled by the augmentation that had taken place in 1814.

explained by saying, that he alluded only to a want of uniformity in the discipline of the regiments that composed our army formerly, and by no means wished to deny its efficiency.

The House then resolved itself into the committee.

in reply to what the hon. gentleman had mentioned respecting the waggon train, stated, that the duke of Wellington never would go into the field without having a large corps of that description with him. It was applied to the service of hospitals, and after the battle of Waterloo had been employed for sixty hours in carrying off the wounded, by which means many valuable lives had been saved. Its numbers not being deemed sufficient previous to the commencement of the campaign, the horses in question had been purchased to augment it. There were now five troops with the duke of Wellington, and the rest were at home, employed in transporting the sick, and in the military college. As to the wish expressed by the hon. gentleman to extend the increase in the half-pay to all officers, it was an additional instance, that whilst all were looking to retrenchment, scarcely an individual could refrain from proposing some point of augmentation. The increase in the half-pay had, at the time it was granted, been limited to those who had been, or were to be, reduced in 1814, and to those who had been obliged to leave the service since 1793, on account of wounds and infirmities. Those who had voluntarily quitted the army were not thought entitled to that increase, because if they had chosen to retire from the service, it was not fair they should be as well rewarded as those whom wounds or reduction had alone compelled to withdraw. As to the system of retrenchment adopted by ministers for the present year, it went as far as it was possible at this period. On the home staff, there would be only one major-general in North Britain, where there used to be two. There would be another for the northern parts of the kingdom; one at Portsmouth, one at Plymouth, one in Kent; and in Guernsey and Jersey there would be two majors general instead of lieutenants general. In North America there would be one commander of the forces; in Canada two majors general; in Nova Scotia two general officers. In the Windward and Leeward islands the staff would be composed of one commander of the forces and four majors general, instead of lieutenants general. At Jamaica there would be only one major general. It was intended to remove the major general from Gibraltar, and to place the general on whom the command would devolve, on civil, instead of staff pay. At Malta there would be one lieutenant general, and in the Ionian islands two majors general. There would be besides a commander in chief for Malta and the Ionian islands, with power to reside in either of those places. There would be at the Cape of Good Hope, one major general, the same at the Mauritius, and at Ceylon the officer in command would only receive the civil pay of governor. He concluded by moving "That a sum, not exceeding 277,885l. 10s. 1d. be granted to his majesty, for defraying the charge of general and staff officers and officers of the hospitals serving with his majesty's forces, and the charge of his majesty's garrisons, from the 25th day of December 1815 to the 24th day of December 1816, both inclusive, being 366 days."

was utterly unable to discover why a staff so much larger than any former staff was now necessary. If, there-ford, he declined arguing the question, it was not because he was convinced of the expediency of the proposition.

was of opinion, that the establishment of an adjutant and quartermaster general, and their respective deputy assistants at Ceylon, was far greater than the proportion of the military force stationed there required. In St. Helena, with a garrison of not more than 1400 men, what necessity was there for a lieutenant general, a brigadier general, their aid-de-camps, secretary, &c.? This species of force was quite too much, even though they had such a person as Buonaparté to look after. He observed, that there were two officers in the personal staff of the commander in chief, on which he could not help commenting—the chaplain and the surgeon. With all due respect he must say, that neither the body nor the soul of his royal highness required these attendants. In his relation to the army he had the benefit of the physician general and the chaplain general; and as a member of the royal family, he enjoyed 38,000l. a year for his household, in the establishment of which he would of course have a chaplain and a surgeon.

replied, that this part of the staff applied to the duke of york, not as commander in chief, but as a field marshal. The staff of quarter-master and adjutant-general, became necessary at Ceylon, to superintend the formation of the great road which was to connect both our settlements in that quarter. Internal improvements in the Mauritius would give equal employment there. The medical staff in the West Indies, and other unwholesome climates, could not well be reduced, from the frequency of the contagious disorders to which they were exposed.

animadverted upon the establishment at St. Helena, and the useless waste of public money in maintaining forts, such as Augusta and St. George, in Scotland, which were of no possible use, but served only for the extension of government patronage.

said, that as to St. Helena, if the necessity were admitted of keeping in safe custody the individual who was there confined, it was evident that a trust of that nature required the employment of a general officer of rank; and it followed that the risk of his life should be also considered, and that somebody should be there as second in command to replace the principal in the event of any unforeseen casualty.

wished to know what was the entire expense incurred by this country in guarding the person of Buonaparté. The estimates before the committee threw no light on this point. What, he asked, was the total cost of the naval, military, and civil arrangements touching the detention of this person at St. Helena?

replied, that he was at that moment unprepared to give the information which the right hon. gentleman solicited. He might, however, make a motion on the subject.

asked, whether the salary of the governor of St. Helena was included in the estimates, and whether the salaries of the two general officers accompanying him were to be found among the papers?

said, the House would feel that the establishment at St. Helena stood on quite a different policy from that of any other place. It involved a great political trust, and a question of good faith with the other powers of Europe. Nothing could be more fatal than the calamity of the escape of the person who was our prisoner. There could not be less than two general officers to superintend his custody. On the subject of expense, as connected with this arrangement, he was at that instant unprepared to go into particulars. But the public would certainly have but to meet the excess of the expense between the former and the present expense of the island. The governor was to receive no allowances, he was merely to have his fixed pay.

said, that if this country was only to have a proportion of the benefit of Buonaparté's detention, it was rather hard she should have to bear the whole expense.

repeated what he had stated on a former night, namely, that the allied powers would have most readily released us from the charge of detaining Buonaparté, had we consigned him to their custody—a transfer to which, after his surrender to us, it was impossible we could consent.

said, that this might be a good reason why the allies would not pay any portion of this expense, but he could not see any reason why France should not pay her share of it. If France consented to pay the charge of a large army in her territory to keep down Buonaparté's system, why not afford a little to assist in keeping out the individual who was the life and soul of that system. As matters stood, a great hardship was imposed on England.

could not well see with what grace we could call on France to pay a part of our own arrangement, as she was anxious to take the whole charge of it upon herself, if we resigned Buonaparté into her hands for safe custody.

said, that as there was a common interest in the security of Buonaparté, so there should be a community of expense. It was said, indeed, that we had no right to call upon the allies to bear a proportion, because they were anxious to take the weight from our shoulders and place it upon their own, but that we could not in generosity accede to this proposition. But the noble lord should have said to the ministers of Russia, Prussia, and Austria, when they made it, "You are relieved from the presence of this man, but you are without a place of sufficient security for his full and complete detention. We have that place in the island of St. Helena, and we will appropriate it accordingly; but as the advantage is common, so must be the expense." Those powers could not have had the smallest objection to such an offer. As to France, why should she not pay a share? But really this was one of the many lavish ways in which British treasure was squandered. When payment was to be arranged, nobody dreamt of being a party to it but England, and according to the trite but vulgar phrase, "whoever gained the advantage, John Bull paid the expense."

said, that one of the great objections of some gentlemen to the peace with France was, the enormous sum levied upon her; and now it was complained, that we had not imposed a further sum upon them for the expense of Buonaparté's detention.

said, that he was not one of the persons who objected to the pecuniary part of the French treaty.

said, that as the allies were sending out commissioners to St. Helena to exercise an equal right of possession with us to the custody of Buonaparté, nothing could be more fair than that they should participate in the expense. France, above all, had a right to pay some share; for by the support which she had given to the ambition of the individual, she had made herself the great instrument of inflicting the ills under which Europe had so long groaned.

intimated, that if the expenditure of the forts in Scotland was not relinquished in the next estimates, he would call the attention of the House to the subject of a useless expenditure, which only existed for purposes of government patronage. If the ministers had had to contend with the agricultural and commercial distresses, they were determined not to have to contend with those of the military, by keeping open a few places for that branch of the community.

asked, whether any proposition had been submitted to the allies on the subject of Buonaparté's expense?

said, that it would have been inconsistent with the dignity of this country to require from other powers the concession of terms, by which they must have necessarily become a party to our policy at St. Helena, and, of course, open to consultation on all occasions before we could send a ship out to that island.

on the subject of the forts in Scotland, observed, that they formed a convenient retreat for disabled officers, who might deserve well of their country.

said, that one of the complaints which the noble lord opposite had urged against Mr. Windham's military plan, was the expense which it would entail upon the country; he could now, however, use the same argument when it suited his own purpose.

ridiculed the argument, that the dignity of the country was at all concerned in the mode of paying the expense of Buonaparté.

said, that it was usual, in alliances, for each party to bear the expense of its own prisoners.

replied, that this might be the case in ordinary cases, but not in such as the present.

concurred in this opinion. He asked, how the staff happened to amount to 10,000l. now, more than it did in 1802?

defended this part of the establishment, observing, that there was nothing in which the Irish government was less concerned. The reduction that had been made proceeded from the commander in chief, and the government of Ireland actually protested against it, as being too great. It was only proposed to retain one lieutenant-general and ten major-generals. The hon. gentleman must be aware that it was most material that there should be a sufficient number of major-generals, from the important duties they had to perform. When application was made to the civil power, these officers had to report to the government their opinion, from which it was judged, whether there was a necessity for sending to any quarter an additional military force. It was proposed to retain also seven assistant adjutant-generals. The right hon. gentleman then stated, that in the first estimates, which were prepared in November, there was a mistake, by omitting to insert the reductions which were at that time intended to be made.

The resolution was agreed to.

next moved, "That the sum of 110,113l. 8s. 2d. be granted for defraying the charges of the Volunteer Corps of Great Britain and Ireland, for the year 1810." The noble lord, in proposing this resolution, stated, that the allowance of 4l. per man for clothing, &c. would be now reduced one-half. A reduction had already taken place in the brigade majors on the Irish department, to the amount of 6 or 7,000l

paid a ready tribute to the services of this force, and feared that an allowance of 2l. per man was not sufficient.

concurred in the praises bestowed on the volunteer force by the hon. member. There was no instance in which they had not obeyed with alacrity the orders of the magistracy, and always with success, in suppressing riots and disturbances; never had a drop of British blood been shed by them in the performance of that duty.

also spoke of the alacrity which the volunteers ever manifested, in preserving the peace and tranquillity of the country; he only regretted that they should be so much reduced. He observed, that the regular troopers stood the country in 65l. a man, and, consequently, that a regular force of an amount equal to the volunteers would be attended with an expense of 1,400,000l. This was a great saving. He therefore hoped it was not the intention of his majesty's government further to reduce this force, but that they would consider it a part of the permanent establishment of the country.

replied, that it was impossible either for his majesty's government, or for the committee, to pledge themselves to any thing beyond the vote for the present year; but he could inform the hon. baronet, that ministers were fully sensible of the valuable services of the volunteers corps, and would be always happy to render them available.

thought, that as the advantage of holding a force of that description embodied, appeared so readily acknowledged, some greater inducement than they enjoyed at present should be held out to the individuals composing it.

said, that it was not intended to call out the volunteer corps as many days in the year as formerly, and in consequence of the reduced service, he thought 2l. a man an ample allowance. Some of those corps had funds of their own, and all were exempt from the horse tax. With respect to the necessity of holding out a greater inducement to them, he felt that there could be none greater than the zeal and public spirit by which those corps had been ever influenced

said, that when those corps were called out, they were necessarily subject to greater expense than when living at home. He meant to make no motion on the subject, but suggested that the allowance should be raised to 3l.

concurred in all that had been said by the hon. gentleman, in thinking that many of those corps were not able to support themselves without some assistance from government. He acknowledged that they had required no greater inducement during the war than their zeal and public spirit, but that inducement had been considerably weakened since the return of peace.

The resolution was agreed to.

then rose to propose a vote for the pay of the local militia. With regard to that force, it was intended to relieve the public from the expense attending it without destroying its organization. The plan was, to discontinue the pay of the permanent part of the force, such as the Serjeants, drummers, and corporals, and also of the quarter-masters; to put the adjutants on the retired pay, to place the arms under the care of the ordnance, and having thus got rid of the expense, to permit the officers to retain their commissions, and to suffer the men to serve out their regular period. This reduction would, however, take some time to complete; he should, therefore, for the present year move, "That there be granted to his majesty a sum not exceeding 90,000l. to defray the expenses of the local militia."—This resolution was agreed to.

adverting to the proposed continuance of a resident commissioner of the navy at Woolwich, observed, that it would appear much more reasonable to make such an appointment for some dock-yard at a great distance from London, for Milford, for instance, than for a place so contiguous as Woolwich and Deptford, which might be very conveniently superintended by the navy board, or the admiralty.

defended the appointment at Woolwich.

threw out, for the consideration of the admiralty, the propriety of making some provision for the more regular payment of naval officers on foreign stations, and also for improving the condition of midshipmen.

observed, that the admiralty felt the best disposition to do every thing practicable for the benefit of all classes in the navy, as well warrant-officers as midshipmen, and that this disposition was manifest from the approvements which had already taken place. It was indeed notorious that the condition of the navy had been very materially improved of late years.

seconded the recommendation of admiral Markham, and urged the justice of a new arrangement with respect to pensions.

suggested the propriety of postponing the consideration of the point alluded to by the last speaker, until the question of pensions should be brought before the House.

thought that some better provision should be made for surgeons and surgeons' mates in the navy, who were not so well rewarded as the surgeons in the army.

observed, that in point of fact, the surgeons of the navy were generally much better off than those of the army.

took occasion to express his approbation of the conduct of the navy board and the admiralty, with regard to the scientific improvements which had taken place in the system of ship-building. These improvements having casually fallen under his observation, he thought it just to bear testimony to the encouragement afforded to the eminently able men employed in this branch of the service.

said, he was glad to find that the learned gentleman had inquired into this subject, and he had no doubt that if that learned gentleman's enlightened mind were applied to the other branches of the naval department, he would continue to admire the conduct of the admiralty.

expressed his regret to find that it was proposed so materially to reduce the corps of marines, and that it was in contemplation to make still farther reductions next year in that very necessary corps. Every gentleman who heard him, and particularly those connected with the navy, must be fully aware of the merit and value of the marines, and also, that upon the commencement of war not a ship could act with effect without an adequate supply of these men. Surely, then, 6000 must be considered by every naval man quite inadequate as a permanent establishment. He should rather recommend an increase of that establishment to the extent of at least 3000 men. It was notorious that on the commencement of a war, the first object of the enemy was either to make a sudden stroke against us, or to send out a fleet in order to guard against any sudden stroke on our part; our navy should therefore be prepared to act with promptitude, which could not be the case if we were not adequately provided with marines. He would leave it to the House to decide whether it would be provident materially to reduce this valuable corps. A soldier could, it was known, be rendered effective in three months, while it would take a much longer period, to prepare a marine, who was a sort of amphibious animal, requiring experience and discipline on both elements. On both elements, too, the marines had shown their skill and valour; and to prove this he could refer to their conduct, not only in the former American war, but throughout the whole of the last contest [Cries of Hear, hear!]. Why then reduce such a useful and gallant body? In the discussions which had lately taken place with regard to the proposed standing army, one argument adduced to justify the amount of that army was, the necessity of employing soldiers to take care of our dock-yards; but he would ask, in the name of common sense, why not rather appoint marines to that service, and make a proportionate reduction in the standing army? Why should soldiers be preferred on a service so much more natural for marines?

was proceeding to state the case of a naval officer, whom he conceived to have been very unjustly treated, in consequence of the existing arrangement with respect to pensions, when he was called to order by

who observed, that this subject would wore properly come under the consideration of the House upon the discussion of the postponed estimates on Monday next.

resumed and stated, that the gallant officer to whom he had alluded had lost a leg in the service, yet in consequence of the very inadequate pension allowed him, he was actually worse off with respect to pay; that, indeed, he would have been much better provided for if he had never been wounded.

pressed the objection of sir G. Warrender as to the irrelevancy of the hon. member's statement to the question before the House, and on a cry of Chair, Chair!—

observed, that being applied to he must say that the hon. member's observations were not strictly within the limits of the question before the House.

The report was agreed to, and on the motion of the chancellor of the exchequer, that the report of the navy estimates on Wednesday last should be further considered,

animadverted upon the loose manner in which the contingencies of the navy were stated in those estimates—the expense of postage, of carrying parcels, and of rewards for procuring seamen being all stated under one head, without any specification of the amount of each item, which specification should, in his opinion, distinctly appear.

observed, that when this statement was received at the admiralty from the navy office, it was intended to send it back, with a view to obtain the specification alluded to, but understanding it to be the intention of an hon. member to move for a detailed statement of the contingencies in all the public offices, such a proceeding was thought unnecessary, as it would create delay, and as it was proposed in compliance with that motion, to lay the detail before the House on a future day.

adverting to the number and salaries of the lords commissioners of the admiralty observed, that although since the abolition of the office of lord high admiral, the number of the lords commissioners was generally seven, it sometimes did not exceed five; and he could not see any necessity for more than five at present, or during the existence of peace. Then the salaries of the puisne lords amounted to 6000l. per annum, while that of the first lord was 5000l.; in all 11,000l. With the amount of this allowance he did not mean to find fault; he only objected to the distribution of its For he could not conceive any just ground for allowing no more to the naval lords, who had a great deal of business to do, than to the civil lords, who really did little or nothing.

Here the Speaker appearing to be indisposed,

rose and observed, that he was sure he expressed the general feeling of the House that this discussion should proceed no further.

said, that he felt deeply sensible of the motive which produced this suggestion, but assured the House that the debate might proceed without inconvenience to him.

however, moved that the House should immediately adjourn.

said, that this proceeding would be inconvenient, but he moved the adjournment of the discussion to Monday next, which was agreed to; and the other orders of the day being disposed of, the House adjourned.