presented a petition from the maltsters, farmers, private brewers and consumers of malt in the city and county of Norwich, praying for the immediate abolition of the war malt duty, as its continuance to the 5th of July was extremely disadvantageous to the public. The petitioners were satisfied of the good intentions of the chancellor of the exchequer, but they hoped he would instantly give up his tax, as they would be materially injured by its continuance. Barley had already experienced much disadvantage in the market, and the maltsters who had purchased malt, before the intention of the chancellor of the exchequer was known, had been very great losers.

said, that had he been in the House the other evening, he should have endeavoured to point out to the chancellor of the exchequer the deficiency of the resolutions on the war malt tax. What the chancellor of the exchequer offered to the brewer was, a drawback of 13s. 8½d.: but this was not a sufficient encouragement to the brewer to consume malt. If the right hon. gentleman wished to give a spur to the brewers for general purposes, he should rather say he would give 16s. to July; but if they brewed now, he would give them 17s. The brewers were a reasonable set of men, and did not expect to lose by what was proposed as favourable to the trade. An hon. baronet had thought that beer ought to be lowered a penny a pot; but if he had considered the matter fairly, he would have found, that when 16s. were put on malt, beer was raised a half-penny only; and, in taking off the duty, it would be lowered a half-penny. When the hon. baronet spoke thus, he (Mr. C.) might as well speak about the price of coals. Another hon. member wanted regulations as to the quality of beer; but he did not like a similar interference as to corn. It could be proved that the London beer was cheaper, better in quality, and more in quantity of measure, than the beer sold in other parts of the kingdom. The advantages gained by brewers were by no means what they were supposed to be. No great article of consumption had proceeded in so small a ratio as to the increase of price: the brewers, indeed, had studied to keep the price of beer as low as possible.

explained his former observations; but still thought that beer ought to fall in the way he had stated, when the war malt tax should be removed. As to what had been said about coals, the fact was, that the coal owners had nothing to do with the raising of the price of coals in London. For many years their prices had not been raised. The rise was ascribable entirely to others. A great cause of beer being both high-priced and indifferent he considered to be owing to the practice of the monopoly of the public-houses by the brewers. He believed this not to apply so much to the London as the country brewers.

explained that he had only said he might might with equal propriety have asked questions about corn and coals. Porter had been raised and lowered, and it would soon be sold at four-pence halfpenny.

observed, that the whole advance made by the brewers in thirty-four years was 3s. per barrel or one farthing per pot. Let gentlemen, then, look back, and consider the price of malt, which, in 1782, was 28s. 6d. and the duty 10s. 6d. Now the price of malt was 65s. and the duty, in round numbers 35s. This made a difference as to barley of 18s. to 30s. Hops in 1782 were 40s. per cwt. and now were 6l. 8s.—an increase of three hundred per cent. Besides these matters, gentlemen could easily conceive the augmentation of charges in the providing of horses and other implements of trade. No reduction of price could now be expected but by the reduction of duty. He agreed with the hon. baronet, that it was an evil for the brewers to hold the public-houses, both to the country and to their own interests. It occasioned an unjustifiable increase of capital; but he did not believe that it applied to the London brewers.

argued that from the hon. gentleman's own statement there must have been an occasional deterioration in the quality of porter, in order to enable the brewers to go on at all. He urged the expediency of a reduction in the price of that wholesome beverage as calculated to diminish the pernicious effects resulting from drinking spirits.

was anxious to direct the attention of the House to the petition then before them, praying for the immediate cessation of the malt duties. The object of such a proposition was to relieve the market from its present state of derangement, for unless the malt duty were taken off now, no private brewers would consume malt until the month of July, and the market would continue in its present overloaded and depressed state.

considered, that the proposition of immediate repeal might involve an injustice to the public brewer, if he paid for stock in hand; and if he did not, government would have to pay him nearly a million. The difference by the present arrangement to the private brewer would be inconsiderable. He would recommend to the public brewer to brew as largely and as early as possible, as the price of barley would rise: he would thereby gain more.

The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

presented a petition from the county of Wilts, complaining of various grievances, and praying for retrenchment and reform. The hon. baronet specified some of the complaints in the petition, expressed his conviction that they were well grounded, and declared his entire concurrence in the feelings with which the petitioners viewed them.

The petition was brought up and read; setting forth, "First, that the distresses of agriculture and trade, which are notoriously prevalent throughout the whole country, have arisen from the great load of taxes, which have been employed principally in the cause of despotism and persecution, and from the operation of a paper currency, through the means of which the ministry, in conjunction with the bank of England, have now doubled, in fact, the burthens of all those who do not derive their means of living out of the public revenue; second, that it is in vain to look for a remedy in any thing but a diminution of taxation, and a strict inquiry into the means by which the treasures of the nation have been squandered, a rigid search for the present place of deposit of those treasures, and just and legal measures to recover, for the use of the nation, whatsoever part of them may have been fraudulently and iniquitously alienated from it; third, that it is degrading to the nation to be compelled to maintain a regular military force in time of peace to any extent whatever, and it must fill every man with indignation to be told that a considerable part of an enormous standing army, is necessary to preserve the peace in England, and to keep the people of Ireland shut up in their houses from sun-set to sun-rise; that it is, however, notorious that an audacious and insolent minister has dared openly to avow these purposes for keeping a large standing army embodied, and that it is his intention to rule us, if possible, by the point of the bayonet; the petitioners cannot entertain the smallest doubt, but that they are quite certain, that Englishmen, in whatsoever manner they may be Germanized in point of dress, and in part commanded by foreigners, in open violation of law, will still be Englishmen in heart, and will never be found so base as to turn their arms against the lives and liberties of their countrymen; fourth, that it is manifestly unjust, and discovers an unfeeling disposition in the government, not to have reduced the salaries, the pensions, and other allowances, to persons paid out of the public money, while it is notorious that the price of all the necessaries of life, and the wages of labourers, and the profits of farmers and tradesmen, have been so materially reduced; and that the same unfeeling disposition has been, if possible, more signally discovered in the grant of an enormous sum of money out of the taxes to defray the expenses of a new matrimonial connexion, while it is well known that an immense sum of money is deposited in the funds belonging to his majesty, and which money has been exempted from the payment of the property tax, which was so rigidly exacted from the whole of his subjects, not excepting the widow and the orphan that had their mite in the same species of security; fifth, that it is impossible to believe that this industrious, persevering, and provident people, could ever have been brought into the present ruined state if they had had the choosing of persons to represent them to maintain their rights; and that, therefore, as the great cause of all the evils of the country, it is necessary that no time be lost in doing away that system of bribery and corruption which was so fully exposed in the month of May 1809, and the existence of which was, by the members of the House of Commons themselves, acknowledged to be as notorious as the sun at noon day; sixth, that therefore, the petitioners pray that, in order to afford the country a chance of restoration to prosperity, the House will adopt speedily such measures as will produce a constitutional reform in the Commons House of Parliament, so that in reality, and not in mockery, it may in future be said that Englishmen are taxed only by their own consent."

did not object to the House receiving the present petition; but he thought it necessary to state, that he would, in a day or two, present a counter- petition from the same county, and the House, by comparing the names and respectability of the petitioners, determine to which most consideration was due.

replied, that the petition which he had then the honour of presenting, had been prepared at a meeting convened by the high sheriff of the county. He could not say whether the promised counter-petition would have to boast of such a circumstance.

did not mean to deny that it was agreed to, as stated by the hon. baronet, in a regular meeting, but the meeting was small and inconsiderable, there being present not more than twenty freeholders. The manner in which it conducted itself was not such as to invite free discussion, or to admit of a difference of opinion. He knew one gentleman who had attended with the intention of proposing some modification of the measures in the contemplation of the majority, and he was so hooted and clamoured down that his voice could not be heard. He should have the honour of presenting another petition, not for the purpose of opposing this one, in which his constituents could not concur, but of a different character, and expressing their own sentiments on public affairs.

The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

wished to ask the noble lord opposite, whether he had any objection to the production of an account that had already undergone some discussion in another place, but which more particularly interested this House, which might be said to have a control over the revenue of the state. He alluded to a sum of 880,000l. which had been received by his Majesty's government from France, anterior to the signing of the treaty of peace at Paris, which had been applied, without any concurrence of parliament, to the support of the British army on the continent. He did not at present mean to give any opinion whatever on this subject, or to say whether his majesty's ministers were authorized to do as they had done, by any principle of the constitution or not. He could only say if such a power did exist under the constitution, that it was one of a most dangerous and objectionable description, into which it was the bounden duty of the House to examine at the earliest possible period. The motion that he had to submit was "That there be laid before this House, an account of all monies paid, payable, or due, to the British government from France since the 18th of June 1815, distinguishing the dates at which they were paid or became due, with the mode of their intended or actual application."

stated, that the whole of that sum, with the exception of a small part employed in paying for the carriage of the statues and works of art to Italy, and the erection of a monument, already alluded to, at Rome, had been applied to the public service. This information had been given to the House again and again, in the course of several debates. There would be no difficulty, however, in furnishing the details required respecting the application of the money, if the hon. gentleman should make them the subject of a motion.

professed himself entirely at a loss to conceive what the noble lord meant by alluding to his former statements and explanations. He remembered very well the discussions to which he referred, but he could not recollect a single word that explained the use to which this money was applied, or even hinted at its existence. If an account had formerly been given, no account would now be required; nor would the subject seem now so new to the House, as he was sure it must do to all not in the confidence of ministers. In the accounts laid on the table of the House, there was not one word about this sum of 880,000l. In consequence of a motion of an hon. and learned friend of his, an account of the money contributed by France to this country was produced; but it merely included the amount of the sums received in consequence of treaties and conventions.

said, he was still satisfied of the truth of the observations he had already made, namely, that this subject had been distinctly explained in the course of debate on former nights, both by himself and his right hon. friend, the chancellor of the exchequer, who, on opening his detail of the financial plans for the year, had adverted to the appropriation of this sum. In answer to a question from an hon. gentleman who had raised a doubt of the sufficiency of the sum taken by government for the support of the corps on the frontiers of France, he (lord Castlereagh) had also particularly alluded to the sums paid, and to be paid by France to the allies, as contributions agreed upon previous to the treaty of peace, in lieu of the quota of men which she was to have furnished, of which Great Britain was to have ten millions of francs, or 400,000l. sterling, beside 120 francs per man, for the clothing of the army under the duke of Wellington. When the papers alluded to were produced, however, these items would be fully detailed.

could not recollect that one word of the explanation now given was ever before offered to the House. He remembered that he had raised an argument against maintaining a force of 30,000 men in France, on the ground that the contributions supplied by that kingdom were insufficient for defraying its charges, and thus afforded an opportunity of stating the utmost farthing that was expected to be derived from that source; but no answer of this kind was given.

again maintained, that he perfectly recollected explaining the circumstances to which the hon. gentleman had objected, and distinguishing between the money received in consequence of treaties and conventions, and that which was booty of war.

remembered a distinction stated between what was called booty, and contributions made in consequence of treaty; but no notice was then taken of the sum now found to have come under the management and disposal of ministers. When an hon. and learned friend of his (sir James Mackintosh) had moved for the accounts of what we had received from France, no hint was given that any thing more than what was contained in the return was actually come into our possession. Would it not have been proper, would it not have been fair, when that motion was made, for the noble lord to have come forward and said, "I will grant you the account you require, but there are sums which the wording of your motion will not reach; I therefore, being willing to give you the fullest satisfaction, and to disclose the whole accounts between this country and France, would wish the motion so expressed, that it shall include both the sums contributed by treaty, and those received as booty?" Instead of this, the motion was agreed to without alteration, and not a hint given but that the return made in consequence contained a full view of all receipts, while ministers in the mean time were receiving and pocketing this immense sum, unknown and unaccounted for. Was this fair dealing, to withhold the disclosure of nearly a million of money, when another million was moved for? Was it fair to keep back all mention of it until it was accidentally discovered? This appeared to him a subject of the greatest importance. If the constitution allowed the levying of sums of money for the Crown without providing the means of disposing it, it admitted the exercise of a power that might be turned against itself, and for which, therefore, some remedy should be speedily provided. He had brought forward the subject of the droits of the admiralty when he had formerly the honour of a seat in that House; but nothing had since been done to regulate the use of such monies, although some measure was loudly called for by every consideration of constitutional policy.

was glad the subject was brought under the view of the House, and that an opportunity of offering proper explanations had been thus afforded. He remembered very distinctly, that when he stated the resources of the country in the beginning of the session, and the means we had for supporting our establishments, he mentioned that 700,000l. had been received from France, and applied to defray the charges of the army in that country. He mentioned, in addition, that 800,000l. were applicable to the public service from the contributions that had been granted. When he spoke of these sums, he could not be supposed to allude to the sums advanced in consequence of treaties and conventions. The reason why the money in question had not been accounted for in the return made to an hon. and learned gentleman's motion was, that he imagined the motion was only intended to procure a statement of the sums accruing from treaties sanctioned by the House. The accounts would, however, immediately be laid before it, and he doubted not that the manner in which this sum was disposed of would meet with general approbation.

professed he was quite ignorant that the sum of 880,000l. had been received prior to treaties or conventions, and therefore thought that the noble lord's explanations, and those of his right hon. friend, had not been very clear. The right hon. gentleman now declared his willingness to show how the money was spent, but was it not his duty to have told us formerly how much we had to spend? Was it not to be expected that he would have asked the advice of parliament about the disposal of it, before ministers proceeded to apply? This was a question of great constitutional importance, and ought not to be lightly passed over. He believed ministers gave a true account of the amount, and that they would employ it for the public advantage, but still we had only their word for it. It might be 880,000l., or a million, or more, or any sum, for all the evidence that was before the House. He would wait, however, for the account, and in the mean time would ask the noble lord, if the contributions levied upon France would be sufficient to maintain our army in that country, and whether there were more sums allotted for that purpose than had hitherto been disclosed?

reminded the right hon. member that he had on a former night distinctly stated all the arrangements that had been entered into for the receipt and distribution of the sums drawn from France, of which our proportion came to about six millions. There was no part of the arrangement that had ever been made a matter of concealment by ministers. His right hon. friend had stated, that a part of the sum in question had been applied to the liquidation of some of the army extraordinaries in Portugal. If the right hon. gentleman really supposed that this money was sufficient to defray the whole of the expenses of our army in France, he could show him that this was impossible. There would in this year be an actual deficiency of 270,000l. We had not, in fact, received the amount of our proportion this year, because, from the impoverished state of the finances of Austria and Prussia, it was found advisable to let them receive ten millions of their share of the contributions in advance; in consequence we should receive less in the first than in the subsequent years. It was taken as a general principle, that 150,000 men should be paid by France; but it never was understood, that the provision made by France for the corps of observation covered the whole of the expenses, but that afterwards means would be found to cover them: but, supposing the occupation to last five years, and 30,000 British troops be retained, their expense would finally be covered by the amount of the contributions. This was the course that had been understood, and it had been distinctly explained before.

replied, that by the arrangement signed by the noble lord, we were altogether exonerated from this charge; but he now said, that we were this year to be saddled with an expense of 270,000l. It was material this should be understood, for the amount must be made good; and when what was to be given to the army was taken into the account, it would be found that next year, the deficiency, instead of being 270,000l. would amount to 500,000l. or 600,000l.

allowed this might happen in the first and second years, on account of the sums allowed to the allies. France engaged to support 150,000 men on an average of the pay of the continent. The sum was sufficient for continental troops, but insufficient for ours; but it was calculated that our extraordinary expenditure would be covered by the extraordinary contribution. This had been the course of his argument on former occasions.

did not remember the course of the noble lord's argument, but he recollected very well that he had said the country was to be entirely freed from all charge on account of our army in France; and he was prepared to show, that there would be 270,000l. of a deficiency in the French contributions for its maintenance. Next year there would be a greater deficiency, not less than 650,000l. [Here lord Castlereagh said, across the table, that would not happen till the third year.] The right hon. gentleman continued by saying, that it was doubtful whether our present securities would last for three years. France was to pay the whole. His lordship had now abandoned this hope for two years; but "wait," says he, "till the third year, and all will be cleared." So we were to depend upon the money granted by France as an indemnity for the expenses of the war, for the payment of those troops that were to maintain the peace! The Bourbons promised an indemnity, and we were to spend the whole of it, not in recovering ourselves from our distresses, but in supporting them upon the throne!

thought the subject of infinite importance, and that it might be clearly understood, he gave notice that if no member more adequate to the task should make a motion on it, he would himself do so at an early period after the Easter recess.

said, the House bad for- merly been told that the establishment in France was to cost us nothing; but it now turned out, that in consequence of the preference given to other powers, a considerable sum would have to be disbursed by this country during the first two years of the arrangement, and that we should have to wait till the succeeding years before we could receive our due share of the sums stipulated to be paid to us. Here he could not but think that the noble lord had been overreached in the negociation. He seemed, at all events, to have different ideas with respect to the security of the sums to be paid by France from those entertained by the princes of Germany; for he knew that those princes were at present offering to sell their contingencies at 50 per cent. discount.

said, he knew nothing of the discount at which the necessities of the powers of the continent might induce them to sell the sums to fall due to them; this was a subject of which the hon. gentleman must be a better judge than himself; but he would only again put the House in mind that the Russian government, of which the finances were not generally thought to be in the most flourishing state, had been induced to make the same arrangement with ourselves.

thought, that, considering the loan which we had given to Austria, of which we had not received one farthing, although the noble lord had said we might sue them in the imperial court, we ought to have taken more pains to secure our interests.

said, the House was not aware of the importance of the statement made by his hon. friend, namely, that the contributions to Germany, were for sale at 50 per cent. under their nominal value, and this, too, in a market where there were no purchasers, even for a simple thousand.

The motion was then agreed to.

alluded to the Repairs going on at the front of that old and respectable looking building at Whitehall. He wished to know whether any report had been made by the board of works, on the necessity of these repairs; to ascertain which, he should move for an estimate of the expenses, together with a report of the dangerous state, and a summary account of the plan intended to be adopted in the repairs of the front of the office of the secretary of state.

would recommend the hon. gentleman to move for any correspondence that had taken place between the board of works and the treasury. From the inquiries he had made upon the subject, he had understood that these repairs had been undertaken without any specific authority from government; as the board, on its authority, on the representation of the surveyor, could undertake any repairs not exceeding 1,000l. It had been reported that old stones often fell out from the front of this building, to the great danger of the passengers. It was found that to repair the whole with stone, would amount to about 3,000l.; and therefore to save as much as possible, buttresses of brick-work were erecting, and it was proposed to wash the whole over, so as to give it the appearance of old stone. To him the new appearance of the building was, he must confess, extremely unsightly; and he had taken it upon himself to direct a suspension of the order under which the works were carried on, until the pleasure of the House should be known on this subject.

was not aware that any correspondence had taken place upon the subject, or he should have shaped his motion accordingly.

said, that the correspondence had taken place since the matter had been noticed in the House, and when produced, would give a full report of every thing connected with the subject.

hoped that some care would also be taken in improving the inside of the treasury. He owned he was rather astonished that a gentleman, who could swallow the whole expense of the department of a third secretary of state, should affect to give so much importance to a matter of trivial economy of this kind, by which 1,000l. at most could be saved.

then moved, "That there be laid before this House, copy of any correspondence between the office of works and his majesty's treasury, relating to the probable expense of repairing the front of the secretary of state's office, Whitehall; together with any report which has been made by the office of works, as to the dangerous state of that building; and a summary statement of the manner in which it is proposed to finish the work."—Ordered.

said, he rose to move for certain papers connected with the ap- pointment of commissioners, whose offices, he apprehended, would turn out to be mere sinecures. Their emoluments did not, in fact, as far as his knowledge went, exceed 200l. a year; but the smallness of the sum satisfied him that his motion would receive the support of the hon. member for Corfe-castle. His only fear on that point was, that the hon. member, whose love of economy was always confined to the more minute heads of the public expenditure, should decline to countenance any proposition for retrenchment which did not originate with himself [A laugh].

spoke to order. He considered the hon. and learned gentleman to be quite irregular in prefacing any motion for papers by a personal attack of this description. Although he might not always agree with the opinions of particular individuals or parties, he was not afraid to submit his conduct to a comparison with that of any member in that House. He had always supported, according to the measure of his ability, those plans of economical reform which he deemed practicable, and consistent with the security of the country. It was known to the House that he had assisted no long time since in maturing a plan by which a million and a half were saved. He had supported the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney) in all his motions with respect to the excesses in the civil list, and should pursue the same independent course of proceeding as long as he had the honour of a seat in that House.

protested against the precedent of an hon. member professing to rise to order, and then entering upon a personal vindication of himself against a supposed attack. In the present instance no such attack had been made; for it must be in the recollection of all who heard him, that he was not the first person in that House who had observed, that in every question of practical economy, the degree of the hon. member's support was in proportion to the insignificance of the sum to be saved. He was equally justified in remarking, that when the existence of a great and unnecessary state employment was at issue, the hon. member forgot his economy, which, however, soon re-appeared when the expense of a little brick and mortar was under consideration. The purpose of his rising was to move, "That there be laid before this House, an account of the names, salaries, and emoluments of the commissioners and other officers of the court of appeal, from the judgments of the board of excise during the year 1815, the number of days each commissioner attended during the said year, and the number of appeals heard by them, distinguishing the number of such as have led to a reversal of the decision below, together with the other places held by each commissioner."—Ordered.

observed, that his examination of the papers on the table induced him, with a view of rendering them complete before the House should go into the inquiry upon the excess in the civil list, to move, "That there be laid before this House, copies of all correspondence between the lord chamberlain of his majesty's household and the lords commissioners of the treasury, on the subject of the estimates directed to be produced from the lord chamberlain's department.

objected to the calling for partial information at present, on the same principle as he opposed it on a former night. It was taking merely one corner of the question, and bringing a subject before the House on which they could not fairly decide till all the documents were before them.

denied that he had any design of looking only to a corner of this question, to use the phrase of the noble lord. A regulation had passed under the sign-manual, that the lord chamberlain should furnish estimates of the expense of the household at quarterly periods; and for the first three quarters these documents were already produced. If the estimates for the last quarter were not forthcoming also, he had a right, in his place, to ask why the marquis of Hertford had not complied with directions of the Prince Regent, and why a public officer dared to fly in the face of the sign-manual? Although he stood alone, he was determined on such a question to take the sense of the House.

agreed with the right hon. gentleman, that the accounts for the last quarter, and all the correspondence illustrative of them, were essential to a full consideration of the subject.

was far from denying that explanation ought to be given why this wholesome regulation was not complied with. The question was not, whether the regulation ought or ought not to be complied with, but whether the House was now to be taken by surprise. If the papers produced along with the accounts should not be sufficient, then it would be competent for any member to move for others. Undoubtedly a primâ facie reason was made out for inquiry why the estimates for the last quarter in the lord chamberlain's department were not produced; but the question was, whether the necessity was so pressing as not to allow the House to wait for the general statement, which would probably satisfy the House, and prevent any farther inquiries on the part of the right hon. gentleman.

The House then divided: For the motion, 40; Against it, 49. Majority against it 9.

rose. He observed that the charge of the office of ordnance, for the present year, was, in the original estimate 1,639,399l. The average expense, during the last five years, had been 4,300,000l. per annum. They had, in the first instance, reduced the amount to 1,639,399l.; but, on consideration, a farther reduction of 137,307l. was made in the improved estimates. After he had made this statement, he hoped the committee would give some credit to the department to which he was attached, for having shown a due degree of attention to the principle of economy.

The last article was called "expenses of reduction," because the charge was incidental to the return of peace, and would not occur again. It arose from the reduction of our great establishments, and would be dismissed at the end of the year, and would, therefore, form no part of the actual peace establishment. Even the super-annuations, which amounted to 164,814l. together with some other items in the estimates, making a sum of 400,000l., could not be considered as actually belonging to the peace establishment. When he recollected what had taken place at the end of former wars, he trusted the committee would agree with him, that the gentlemen connected with the ordnance department were not wanting in duty to the House and to the country at large, in making the reductions they had done. Even at the end of the American war, when our forces were not near so numerous as they were during the contest which had been just terminated—when a very great difference existed in the value of money—when expenses, both in private and in public life, were comparatively small—even at that time, in 1783, the peace estimates were 1,449,000l. Certainly of that sum a considerable part was placed under the head of "unprovided for." There was a sum of 800,000l. unprovided for in previous years; and, besides this, a debt of 100,000l. But those who had to discharge the duties of the ordnance office, at the present period, came forward with an item of only 84,057l. for ordinaries unprovided for, and without a single farthing of debt. On the ordinaries, altogether, there was a reduction of 447,000l. This had been chiefly owing to the reduction of the military; but something had also been saved in the civil department. All the war salaries throughout the office had been put down. The secretary of the board had been deprived of his war allowances, and the same proceeding had taken place with respect to the chief clerks. All the officers who received war allowances had forfeited them, except a few who were at present abroad. In addition to this, the military secretary of the master-general, who, if the war had gone on, would have been placed on the same footing as a secretary of state, and would have received 500l. per annum more than he now enjoyed, was obliged to give up that allowance. If the committee would look to the statement under the head of "Woolwich," they would find that a very considerable reduction had been made. In the laboratory, carriage, and store departments great savings had taken place. In the laboratory alone, a diminution of 900l. had been made. In the carriage department, also, a reduction of 800l. had been effected. He by no means meant to say, that these were the sole reductions. For instance, the discharge of labourers and artificers reduced the expenses of the department nearly 100,000l.; but as their dismissal must necessarily follow the cessation of hostilities, the officers of the ordnance department took no credit to themselves for the saving.

On the subject of the civil branches, he would be ready to give every information to the committee—but he would, at present, proceed to the more interesting part of the question, that which related to the reduction made under the military head. He here begged to call the attention of the House to the high state of perfection at which our artillery service had arrived. The English artillery, at former periods, was inferior to that of her enemies; but the zeal of the officers of the artillery service of Great Britain and Ireland, had placed it far beyond comparison with that of any other country in the world. The great improvement in this science, throughout Europe, and particularly as far as our chief enemy was concerned, rendered it absolutely necessary that this country should encourage the formation of an efficient artillery corps. In former times it was customary to furnish large armies, with a very small proportion of artillery; but the chieftain who recently ruled over France, introduced a different system. He sent into the field a preponderating and overwhelming body of artillery, by which means he had gained many of his victories. Other powers were obliged to follow this example; for they felt that it was in vain to contend with armies, supplied with an immense artillery, unless they also could bring a great train into the field. Impressed with this idea, the master-general of the ordnance thought it was necessary, that a ground should be laid, in time of peace, for raising, as soon as possible, an efficient corps of artillery, whenever their services should be called for; and he also studied to reduce the expense, as far as was in his power. There was but one way to do this; namely, to discharge those persons who could easily be recruited, and to keep that class, which, if once sent away, it would be difficult to renew. He therefore acted on the principle of dismissing the gunners and privates, and retaining that gallant body of men, the artillery officers. The committee must well be aware of the laborious and painful education they were obliged to pass through, in order to qualify them for their situation; and they would feel, that if they were once dispersed, it would be a mere chance if they could ever be again collected together. The next point which the master-general had to settle was, the proportion between the army of the line and the artillery. In doing this, he looked to the proportion between armies in the field and the artillery attached to them. In the Peninsular war, the artillery was in the proportion of one-tenth to the army of the line. Considering the exigencies of the country as much as possible, the master-general had reduced the proportion to one-eleventh part of the army of the line—not allowing any thing for the embodying of the militia, which force amounted to 50,000 men. Our army of the line consisted of 111,000 men—the artillery of only 10,000, not including sappers and miners. The regiment of royal artillery, consisting of ten marching battalions, now consisted of 8374 men, and to which number it was reduced from 14,000 men. The brigade of horse artillery, consisted of 1,224 men, which, with the regiment he had already spoken of, formed a body of 10,000 men. The next item was that of the royal artillery drivers, composed of 1336 men. On this there was a reduction of 14,570l. In this service, the master-general had made a very considerable alteration. He had substituted, for the officers of the drivers' corps, such horse-artillery officers as were discharged from their original service, by which means that valuable body of men would be preserved to the country. By this means he would be enabled to dispense with three troops of horse artillery, over and above those already discharged, and, at the same time, preserve all the officers. With reference to their officers, the whole driver system might be deemed an absolute anomaly. The driver officer, with ever so high a rank (he believed they could arrive at the grade of major), had no command whatever in the field. They were merely allowed to look to the state of the horses, &c. The youngest lieutenant, when he entered the field, had a right to command the oldest captain of the drivers. The master-general had, however, altered the system, by placing regular officers of the horse artillery in the command of the drivers' corps. But, in justice to the officers of the drivers' corps, who were discharged, they would be permitted to retire, not on half, but on whole pay. If the corps were reduced altogether, they would, of course, receive only half-pay; but, as no fault was found with them, as they were removed for purposes of public convenience, it was nothing more than fair that they should retain their full pay. This same thing had formerly been done under similar circumstances, particularly in the case of the horse grenadiers. The charge incurred by this plan would be 1,600l. They had reduced the drivers' corps from twelve to five troops, for the service of the united kingdom, and one-half of the expense of the riding-house had been removed. Throughout the whole of the ordinaries the same attention had been paid to the system of reduction, as far as was consistent with the advantages of the service. The number of persons employed in the care of stores had been reduced from 350 to 37. The medical department, which formerly consisted of 102 gentlemen, was reduced to 64, in the original estimate—and in that now laid before the House it was brought down to 52 persons. A saving of 10,000l. was by this means effected. The number of cadets had been reduced by twelve; but the master-general did not think it advisable to interfere farther with the academy.

He now came to the extraordinaries, which amounted to 432,996l., which was less than the estimate of the preceding year by 1,813,000l. This great reduction was occasioned by the consumption of stores, having ceased; and as all the depots in the empire were filled with every necessary store that could be thought of, no money would be called for, under that head, for a considerable time. Another cause of this reduction was to be found in the comparatively small number of works now carrying on. The House, on that point, had always manifested great jealousy. He did not complain of this; but he trusted that they would view it with an enlightened and liberal jealousy; and that they would not, because works were expensive, or on account of discussions in that House, set them down as unnecessary. The sums of money actually paid for new works, erected in this country during the last year, amounted to 6207l. Those in Jersey, 3300l. In Ireland, new works, 12,000l. In Cork, new works, 1800l. repairs 10,000l. And here he begged leave to observe, that it was a mistake to suppose, that all works included in the estimates were fortifications, many of them being of a civil nature, for which the board of ordnance were obliged to pay. In the United Kingdom, including Guernsey and Jersey, the new works amounted to 58,000l., and the repair of the old, to 136,000l.; this comprised both civil and military buildings. The whole amount for the erection of new buildings, and the repair of the old, was 311,000l.; but, from the surplus remaining unexpended since the last year, he found himself in a condition to call for only 215,000l. when the estimates were originally presented; but, in consequence of farther reductions that had been made in the works at home and abroad, a diminution of 199,000l. had taken place. In the military corps a very considerable reduction had been effected. After very serious deliberation, it was determined that, instead of six field-pieces, all the brigades in the service should, in future, have only four. By this means a considerable reduction of horses would be made, without diminishing the strength and activity of the corps; because the same pieces might be served by the different men, in rotation. By this plan the forage of 412 horses, which cost, annually, 12,000l. would be saved.

He next came to the barrack establishment, which was also much reduced. There were 50 barrack stations—these were reduced to 14, and a saving of 1600l. was by that means effected. They looked also with anxious attention to the staff. During the war, three or four officers were found necessary for the ordnance staff. Amongst these, when he mentioned the name of general Mann, the inspector-general of fortifications, he was sure every gentleman would agree in opinion with him, that the service had derived much benefit from his exertions. He was taken off the staff, by which he lost the sum of 1612l. per ann. But, as his allowance, under these circumstances, would be very small, it was thought advisable to make it up 1500l. a-year, in lieu of 3000l. which he received during the war. The same principle was applied to general M'Leod. He was taken off the staff, and lost thereby 1642l. per ann. The board of ordnance were willing to give him an allowance of 1500l. a-year; but he himself applied to have the same allowance as the assistant-adjutant-general received, namely, 40s. a day, which, together with his other pay, amounted to merely 1050l. a-year. The whole estimate for the ordinary and extraordinary service of Great Britain alone, amounted to 1,126,542l. A saving had been effected of 137,000l.; and he hoped, in the ensuing year, that it would not be less than 170,000l. For these two articles, therefore, he would ask something less than a million. He was not so well prepared to say what the saving in Ireland would be in future, not having yet received the returns from that country; but there was a saving, as compared with the last year, of 149,000l.

He now came to the "expenses of reduction," which formed a distinct head. The first article was 100,000l. on account of the supply of small arms. This charge was occasioned, in consequence of an agreement made by government to take from the manufacturers at Birmingham a certain quantity of small arms, for three years, to prevent the danger which would be produced, if, in consequence of the cessation of a demand for muskets, they would be obliged to dismiss, on a sudden, the great body of workmen they had so long employed. Next year, this agreement would cost the country about 50,000l., and after the ensuing year, the demand ceased altogether. The next charge was 86,000l. for the corps of German artillery, which was ordered to be disbanded as soon as possible. They entered our service on certain terms, which of course, it was our duty to fulfil. One article of their agreement was, that they should receive so much per mile, to enable them to go home, and that stipulation would demand nearly 100,000l. The hon. gentleman then observed, that he would be ready to give every information on the subject of the estimates, and concluded by moving his first Resolution: viz. "That a sum not exceeding 989,220l. 7s. 10d. be granted to his majesty, for the charge of the office of ordnance for land service for Great Britain, for the year 1816."

said, he could not expect to engage the attention of the House for any considerable time; for although he should enter on the subject with the best spirit and intentions, yet they must all feel how greatly they had been disappointed with respect to economy and retrenchment. He was willing to admit, that if so large an army were necessary to be maintained in France, a certain proportion of artillery must be kept for that establishment; but he conceived it was quite impossible to examine questions of this immense detail, even in a committee of that House. In 1796 the estimates had been submitted to an examination up stairs, and the same course ought to have been pursued on the present occasion. The hon. gentleman had boasted very much of the economical disposition of his own department, and had passed many eulogiums on the noble lord at the head of that department for lessening the expense. He had said, that for many months past they had been most anxiously and seriously employed with a view to reductions. Now, really, these very bold assertions, uttered by the hon. member while he held the original estimates in his hand, required the whole of the confidence, even of that hon. gentleman, with the whole train of artillery to support him, or certainly he could not have kept his countenance [Hear, hear!]. So far from wishing to diminish the expenses of this service, they had framed the estimates more with a view to what had happened than to what might happen. He would beg leave to call the attention of the committee to some of the articles of the hon. gentleman's supplementary estimates. He had stated the expense of the civil establishment for this year; but he should have looked back to the year 1796, when it was 17,000l. instead of 45,000l. In that year the war expenditure of the ordnance amounted to 1,954,655l. and they had worked the machine for this sum of 17,000l. during the war. For what reason, therefore, was it now increased to 45,000l. This was one sample of their painful examinations and most economical savings! He then found that we had made a reduction of a few hundred pounds at Woolwich. The carriage department, however, was perfectly unnecessary and useless in a state of peace. In the ordinary it was calculated at 3958l.; but there was now a reduction of 1840l., which left it at 2118l.; but of this, 1120l. were allotted for the salary of the department: so that they had to administer only the remainder of that sum [Hear, hear!]. So it was with the reductions in general. He would state the number of the artillery establishment now, and at the former peace. The marching battalions in 1792 amounted to 3700 men, but they were now four times that number; and it ought to be shown what could have made that great accession of force necessary. If, however, the House would vote so large an army, we must have an equal proportion of artillery; but it was an establishment, the expenses of which must weigh down this country. But though it might be necessary to keep up the foot artillery, why should we maintain so great a number of drivers? This was quite a new introduction in our army. The drivers in England and Ireland were upward of 1300 men: the whole of these were unnecessary, and a total waste of money. As to the sappers and miners, they were an infant institution in this country, but it was not necessary to keep up 1900 men of that description. From these two corps we might save from 1500 to 2000 men. He stated this, not merely from his own experience, but from the information of persons who were much better acquainted with the service. It was quite useless, however, to talk of economy, from the reduction of a few messengers and clerks.—With respect to works, the best thing we could do was to sell the materials, or suffer them to fall silently into the dust. The new kingdom of Chatham, as it had been called, was remarkable for nothing but its absurdity and expense; and we had much better get rid of Fort Amherst, Fort Chatham, and Fort Pitt, and all the other nonsensical forts. As to the works across the Medway, they should be either burnt or sold, as well as the two other communications across the river Thames. In regard to Plymouth, he understood that a most extraordinary work was going forward in that neighbourhood, which would cost 200,000l.; but the hon. gentleman had now taken 3000l. from that sum. In the current services and contingencies, he had deducted 58,000l. at one slice; but this, with all his disposition to economy, was much under the mark. He regretted to see that so little had been done in the reduction of the ordnance for Ireland. He had no doubt that the contingencies stated at 28,000l. for that country, might be considerably pared down. The works at spike island might be discontinued.—Upon the whole he could not well propose, on the present occasion, any reduction of the number of men employed in the artillery service, because they required to be proportioned to the amount of our standing army, which had already been sanctioned by the House; but he thought that all the artillery-drivers now in this country might be disbanded, and the corps of sappers and miners greatly reduced. The truth was, ministers, in the scale of their establishments, seemed to be looking to war rather than peace, and this was the radical vice of all their estimates. They talked of estimates for a season of peace in the spirit of war. True policy would, on the contrary, dictate that in time of peace we should husband our resources with a view to future war—that we should keep up the skeletons merely of our various species of force, instead of damping the spirit of the country by oppressive burthens, and destroying the very seeds of those resources to which we were to look for support in the emergency of war. The hon. gentleman had told us to look at the peace establishment of the ordnance for 1783, which amounted to about 1,400,000l.; but he forgot to mention that, in consequence of previous improvidence, there was an advance debt of 800,000l. that year to be paid off, which, in fact, reduced the real cost of the establishment to 600,000l.—Mr. Calcraft said, he was sorry that any reduction had taken place in the number of cadets, because so much depended on science in this branch of service, and there would always be a sufficient number of vacancies to be filled up by them. The corps of cadets, instead of being reduced by 12, should be kept up as high as the demand.—Upon the whole, he was compelled to say, that he could not give the board of ordnance credit for a spirit of economy, What they proposed in February confuted any claims to that virtue which they made in March. He thought that considerable reductions were still practicable, particularly in the civil branch of the ordnance; and the large establishment of clerks and other officers at the Tower could only be required for the temporary purpose of winding up the accounts. He had to remark, however, to the credit of two of the principal officers there, that immediately on the return of peace they had taken the peace salary of 1000l. a-year, instead of the war salary of 1200l. He could not see why the secretary to the master-general should have 2000l., while the secretary to the board had only 1000l., with an addition of 500l. for length of service. This distinction appeared the more extraordinary, as Mr. Crewe, the secretary of the board, certainly one of the most indefatigable servants of the public, was employed from morning to night, and the secretary to the master-general could not do more. He should wish to know the reason of this distinction. Neither could he see why there should be a barrack-master at all in time of peace; and as the labours of the two secretaries would be materially diminished in time of peace, there would be no great difficulty in either of them performing the functions of barrack-master.

on the statement made by the hon. gentleman opposite respecting the arrangement entered into for a supply of small arms, wished to observe, that as there were in the tower already 1,300,000 stand of arms, he could not think it necessary, that 100,000l. should be expended in the present year to purchase more.

saw a charge in these estimates for depots of arms at Shrewsbury, Chester, and other places. He knew something of the depot at Shrewsbury, because the ground on which it was built was purchased from his family against their wish; and yet, since its erection, not a single stand of arms had ever been deposited there. He believed that a more wanton and useless expense never was incurred.

stated the reasons for the erection of these depots at Shrewsbury and elsewhere, which took place while he was in the ordnance department. At the peace of Amiens it was found that the greater part of the small arms returned by the volunteers were in a state unfit for service. Therefore, on the breaking out of the war, and when between 6 and 700,000 volunteers took up arms, the board of ordnance determined to establish depots for the arms of the volunteers, so as to keep them well and secure in the event of peace, and that they might be distributed in the course of a few weeks in case of war again breaking out; which could hardly have been done in half a year, if the arms had all been returned to the tower. Hence it became necessary in some instances to purchase ground for building upon; and there being no depot whatever for the county of Salop, the ground in question, amounting to about an acre, was purchased for, he believed, 300l. The whole building, he believed, cost about 3,000l.; and in it the arms of all the corps of the county were to be placed. What use the board of ordnance had since made of these depots he did not know, but he understood it was their intention now to place in them the arms of the local militia.

said, he knew it as a fact, that the depot at Shrewsbury never had been used at all. It was a large brick building, of not inelegant structure, with a good garden and lofty walls all round it, and had been applied to no earthly purpose, though, of course, there were persons paid to take care of it. It formed, altogether, one of the most extravagant and ridiculous wastes of public money that had ever been witnessed.

repeated, that he was much mistaken if these buildings were not undertaken on the most mature consideration. It was calculated that, by the arms being placed there, instead of being returned to the tower, there would be a saving of many thousand pounds. The very design of the building was such, that it could not be used during war. It was not meant to be so used. But the case was, that when the 600,000 stand of arms belonging to the volunteers were returned to the tower at the peace, it was found that they were all in a state of waste; and the question was—shall we have depots where the country may again speedily find its arms without the expense and delay of procuring them from the tower? Thus the whole country might be armed in three weeks. Now that peace was come, no doubt government meant to make use of those depots to receive the arms of the local militia.

was glad that the fortifications at Chatham were to be discontinued, and trusted that the best fortification would be found in the good disposition of the people of this country, whose burthens in times like these, should be watched with a strict and jealous eye.

said, that an enormous expense had been incurred in the lines at Plymouth; they were still going on, although no officer, with whom he had ever conversed, deemed them worth the expense.

called the attention of the committee to the expense of preserving the train of martello towers, which he considered as perfectly useless. Economy and reduction ought to be the order of the day; and in the present state of the country a small saving would be more felt than a large one at another time. It may be said that it was cheaper to hold them in repair now, than to have at a future time of war the expense of their re-building. This was a most dangerous sort of argument: it went to discourage any reduction of expense in time of peace. and to inculcate a prophetic anxiety for a renewal of war. By the adoption of such a rule of conduct, victories would be unattended with security, and peace unaccompanied by relief.

called the attention of the hon. gentleman opposite, to a subject which he had pressed on his attention before—he alluded to the ordnance maps. These, from the great scientific skill which distinguished them, he was of opinion ought to be given to the public. He now gave notice, that shortly after the recess, it was his intention to move for an Address to the Prince Regent, praying his royal highness to give directions for publishing them.

thought the maps of great importance to the country, and hoped they would be published. This could not be objected to, even on the score of economy, as that which the hon. gentleman who had just sat down recommended, might be done without expense. The sale of the maps would relieve the public from the expense of their publication.

rose to reply, and observed, that it was intended to publish the ordnance maps for the purpose described by his hon. friend, and that his omission to state that intention in his opening speech, was a mere accident. Then, as to the hon. member who commenced the attack upon the estimates, (Mr. Calcraft) it was unnecessary for that hon. member to state, that a long time had elapsed since he was at the ordnance office, and that his experience in that office was but short, for the hon. member's observations betrayed a total ignorance of the constitution and business of the office. For it would appear from the hon. member's views, that the office of secretary to the master-general, was merely that of private secretary, whereas, in point of fact, it was an office of the first importance and responsibility, certainly much beyond that of the secretary to the board. Indeed the board were merely the counsellors of the master-general upon the subject of estimates or pecuniary arrangements; and it had nothing at all to do with the military departments, which was exclusively under the direction of the master-general and his secretary. This secretary was therefore a most confidential agent, acquainted with the object, and employed to conduct the arrangements of every expedition. The amount, then, of such an officer's business might be easily calculated, when the ordnance had to direct in war the operations of 30,000 men. But with regard to the salary of this officer, it was, although a nominal increase, an actual saving to the public, as he had explained on a former occasion. It was known that until within a very few years, the income of these two secretaries was composed of fees and other perquisites, considerably exceeding in amount the present secretary's salary; but in consequence of a suggestion from the commissioners of inquiry, the office of second secretary was abolished, together with the system of fees; and an experiment was made to have all the business done by one secretary with his present salary. Therefore, if this experiment succeeded—and it was yet no more than an experiment—a saving to the public must be the consequence, for the fees received previous to the experiment came out of the public pocket.—The next topic upon which the hon. gentleman had displayed his ignorance, was that relating to barracks; and he thought he had made out a very triumphant case, when he stated that 900l. per annum were paid for the expense of managing 200l.; and certainly if the hon. gentleman had only happened to be right, his case would have been triumphant enough. The fact, however, was, that it fell within the barrack master's department to superintend the furniture for the barracks, the issuing of coals and candles, the inspecting of canteens, &c.—the whole amount of money which he had to manage in that way was not less than 30,000l. It argued therefore extraordinary ignorance in the hon. member, or wilful sophistry, for the sake of party tactics, to venture on so unfounded a statement. The only point, indeed, in which he had even an appearance of success, was in supposing that they who had brought forward the ordnance estimates on the 19th of February as the peace estimates, and incapable of reduction, and who had afterwards actually reduced them, were bunglers in their business, and did not know how to conduct it. He contended, however, that they were never produced on the 19th of February as the peace estimates for the year, any more than the estimates for the army and navy were so brought forward. They were produced merely as a general outline, and it was stated, at the time, that considerable reductions might be looked for in them. It so happened, that from the course of public business in that House, no opportunity had presented itself for taking them into consideration until that night,—being an interval of above six weeks; and was it to be wondered at therefore, that during that interval, they should have been busy at work in ascertaining what reductions could be made? [Hear, hear! and a laugh from the opposition benches.] He could assure the committee that the supplementary estimates of reduction were nothing more than carrying into effect that degree of retrenchment which the government had all along intended. It had been said, that nothing was really done; that no positive economy had been practised, and that only a few clerks and messengers had been dismissed. He begged to affirm, that a great deal more had been done, as any hon. member might be convinced, by examining the reduced estimates. But it was impossible to satisfy the hon. gentlemen opposite. If those clerks and messengers had not been dismissed, then they would have exclaimed that they were maintained for the purposes of patronage and influence. He really believed the hon. gentleman quarrelled with him upon the estimates, merely because there was so little with which he could find fault. The hon. member talked about the machinery of the ordnance being carried on in 1796 for 18,000l. per annum, but he surely could not suppose, even if there were no additions, that it could be carried on at present for the same sum. In fact, many new departments had been added, besides an inevitable increase of clerks. The surveyor-general's office was a most important office, and it was found absolutely necessary to have eight or ten additional clerks in it, unless it was intended to let every thing go into ruinous confusion. It would be the worst of all economy to cut down establishments, until the establishments had answered the end for which they were formed. When all the public accounts were brought up,—which he did not think could be done in less than three years,—then very considerable reductions might be made. With respect to the drivers' corps, he was indeed surprised to hear the opinions which the hon. gentleman had expressed. What would be the consequence of reducing that corps so as to leave only sufficient men to recruit the duke of Wellington's army in France, and the establishment in Ireland? Why, the artillery would be left utterly without the means of practising. They might have guns to be sure, but they would have no horses, or if they had horses they would have no drivers. The greatest and most serious inconveniences had been felt in former wars, in consequence of not having a regularly trained corps of drivers. When an army went into action, they were forced to get carmen, peasants, or any one they could lay hold of, to act as drivers. What was the consequence? Never having been in a battle, and not being accustomed to discipline, they immediately ran away, and the utmost confusion resulted.—The hon. gentleman had displayed the same ignorance with regard to the sappers and miners. In an economical point of view, there would be no real saving if they were reduced, for they were now employed on various works at an additional 2s. 6d. per diem, for which civil artificers would be paid 5s. 6d. In a military point of view their reduction would be still more serious. The only failures which we experienced last war in the Peninsula, were owing to the want of such a corps, or to their being imperfectly trained. Our engineers, in consequence, were exposed to the greatest dangers, especially at Badajoz, where many of them lost their lives, because they were obliged to show the men their duty, even under the very fire of the batteries. With respect to the fortifications at Chatham, he would only refer to the opinion of an eminent officer in the year 1786 upon that subject. He alluded to general Burgoyne (a favourite with the gentlemen opposite), who strenuously supported the propriety at that time of erecting such fortifications. If it were a question whether Chatham should now be fortified, it would be a different point for consideration; but being fortified, he would put it to the House whether they would suffer those fortifications to go to ruin and decay. With respect to Plymouth, upon which a question had been put by an hon. gentleman, he admitted it was a most important subject. He wished to state, however, that the defences which had been erected were not merely in the nature of a wall run round the town: it was a regular fortification flanked with bastions, and having a scarp and counterscarp. He would freely own, however, that unless they went further, all that had yet been done was worth nothing. It must depend, therefore, upon the House of Commons whether the great undertaking should be completed. The sum now asked was merely for the purpose of keeping what was erected from falling into ruin, and he could assure the House that not one hundred pounds should be asked for going on with the fortifications, until parliament should be convinced, after full and mature deliberation, that the object in view was worth the expense that must be incurred. A young member had closed the debate, by talking of the Martellos being unconstitutional. Every thing was now unconstitutional; but he could not really see how these poor towers were so. When he was told the military dress indicated a conspiracy against liberty, he indeed was much afraid, till he recollected that he had himself preserved his old major of volunteer's cloak, and his colonel (a learned judge of the prerogative court) had done the same, and both went home in them at night, and neither of them, he could assure the noble lord (Folkestone) had any design in favour of despotism. As to the Martellos, the hon. member (Mr. Douglas) must have been dreaming, perhaps then talking in his sleep, for he had supposed what never had happened, that he (Mr. Ward) had said it was better to preserve them than to have to build them anew on the commencement of another war. It happened, that neither he, nor any one, had mentioned the Martellos at all; but this he believed, it would cost more to take them down than the materials were worth. The charge was about 12l. per tower per annum, and as it was now before the treasury to see whether they might not be available in aid of the revenue, he hoped they might be allowed to remain. Upon the whole, he hoped he had shown there was no reason to oppose any part of the estimates.

said, he had had the honour of formerly seconding the motion of Mr. Bastard, when the great question of fortifications in the country was lost in that House, by the casting vote of the Speaker.^* Looking at their revival since, he would say, that if the lines at Plymouth were to be garrisoned, 20,000 men would be insufficient for that purpose. The matter at length became serious, for if fortifications were to be preserved, we must become a military nation.

was extremely dissatisfied with the explanation given by the hon. gentleman respecting that department of the ordnance which carried on the manufactory of arms in the Tower. He was informed that 500 stand of small arms were manufactured, even now, every week, which he considered quite unnecessary.

explained, that as the contracts for the manufacture of arms had gone on during the war, it was now necessary to pay for them.

observed, that he had often heard persons who were well acquainted with Plymouth, say, that it was a place of public plunder—a place where public money was thrown away in the most extravagant and unjustifiable manner. He trusted that the House would no longer sanction such disgraceful proceedings, but would promptly check such an unnecessary waste of the public resources. He would shortly follow the statement of the hon. member, and he had no hesitation in saying he considered the statement he had submitted to the committee as extremely conclusive against his own cause. He had told the committee, "that as our establishments had increased there was an obvious increase of expenditure." Very well, but did the hon. gentleman forget this was a time of peace? Did he see no difference between the respective establishments of peace and war? Did he think that because a great establishment had necessarily been made in war, there was but little occasion for reducing that establishment in peace? Let him look to the estimates of the ordnance civil department in 1797, which were, on the report of a committee, found to be 51,618l., and let him compare that with the estimates now, which were 84,499l. and let him say if any rational being could justify such extravagance.

He would next look to the original estimates, and first to the article of repairs and contingencies. A more disgraceful waste of public money had never been seen, and yet no explanation was given of it. In these estimates, the contingencies were rated at 258,000l., and when the hon. member had revised them, he cut off 58,000l. Now, could any man say, that in drawing up these estimates the hon. gentleman had been actuated by feelings of regard for public economy? The sappers and miners had been very highly extolled, and he had no wish to say anything to the contrary. But when the hon. member extolled them, he should have thought within himself, whether the people of England were capable of bearing the expense of their continuance in peace? "O," said the hon. gentleman, "I meant to have reduced 10,000l. in this part of the estimates." The committee would judge whether he had ever seriously intended to do so, when they consider that the estimates had lain seven weeks on the table without being touched. He believed they would never have been revised, had the hon. gentleman not been forced to do it. Let him not claim the praise of reduction. He had no right to claim any praise. He did not do his duty till he was compelled to do it. And pray where was his claim for praise? He reduced them in March. Very well; but was the country in a better state in March than it was in January? What induced him in January to charge more than he did in March? The fact was, economy was delightful to ministers as a theory, but it terrified them when presented in a practical form.

^* See New Parliamentary History, vol. 25, p. 1114.

said, that whatever diminution had been effected, was owing to the spirited exertions of the people of England, and had been reluctantly wrung from ministers. The hon. member opposite was in a singular dilemma on his own statement, for either he had made at first the most exaggerated demands for public money, or else the diminution of these demands was owing to discussion in the committee. He could easily see the intention of that hon. gentleman and his friends, in their assuming pleasant or talkative moods. When a gentleman on that side of the House said any thing not exactly consonant to the fine feelings of ministers, how did they act? Why, they endeavoured to put him down by ridicule, and to make his arguments ludicrous: "O, he is dreaming, he has been at a de- bating society, or some club." But when persons who voted always with them spoke, then they were talked to as rational men, and their assertions extolled as profound reasoning [Hear!]. There was a want of decency and fairness of behaviour in this point, which he reprobated as degrading the character of ministers. They opposed ministers because they thought their measures unconstitutional, and on that account ministers wished to make them appear ludicrous in the eyes of the people of England. But Englishmen might trace this diminution of expenditure to their own exertions, and to the downfall of the property tax. He implored the people of this country not to forget their privileges. He implored them to examine rigidly and earnestly every measure of administration, and though motions coming from his side of the House might be lost, yet their object would be gained; for the eyes of the public being opened, ministers would at last be compelled to feel, that though expenditure and extravagance might suit their inclination, yet economy and justice were the principles of our constitution, and that they who slighted those principles were unworthy of the esteem of the public.

concurred in the condemnation of the works at Plymouth, and thought the House much obliged to the hon. gentleman, sir W. Lemon, for calling their attention to this subject.

begged the House to recollect the alarms experienced during the American war on account of the want of fortification at Portsmouth and Plymouth. So great were the apprehensions at that time that the buoys had all been removed. When these circumstances were recollected—when it was also considered that all admirals and general officers had agreed in the necessity of fortifying these two principal harbours, he thought the House would see the necessity of the sums for this purpose.

repeated his explanations, and insisted on the necessity of supporting the sea batteries.

The resolution was then agreed to, and the other items were voted without opposition.

wished to know from the chancellor of the exchequer, at what time he thought the bank would be able to renew its payments in specie?

as far as he could at present judge, thought that in two years payments in specie might be resumed.

The House then went into the committee.

restated the reasons which induced him to move for a prolongation of the restriction in cash payments. He thought it would be better to fix the term of the restriction at two years, than to propose one, as in the act then in force; because the latter would give the proposition the air of an annual measure, while the former would hold out the expectation, which he had every reason to believe would prove well founded, that at the expiration of two years the restriction would cease. He therefore moved, That the chairman be instructed to move for leave to bring in a bill to continue the said act for a time to be limited.

desired the House to recollect that some time ago the chancellor of the exchequer had mentioned the month of July, 1816, as the time when payments in specie were to be resumed. It seemed to him that there could be no more favourable time for resuming payments in specie than now, when the mint price of bullion, particularly of silver, was the same with the market price. He repeated his opinion that the public should participate in the profits derived by the bank from this act.

also reminded the House that July, 1816, was the period fixed by the chancellor of the exchequer as that at which payments in specie should be resumed. He feared, that at the expiration of the two years now proposed, the chancellor of the exchequer would again come to the House and make a similar proposition.

said:—It is perfectly true, that, during the last session of paliament, I submitted a proposition to the House for a continuance of the bank restriction for one year; but the hopes I then entertained from the continuance of the peace, were soon overcast; and instead of this country receiving a great influx of gold from abroad, we suffered an expenditure of twenty-one millions. But although the external state of the country is now very favourable, we do not enjoy the same advantages in our internal concerns. It is in consequence of this that I propose the restriction for two years, to enable the bank in the present emergency to continue its accommodations. It is impossible for any individual to pledge himself to what may take place in two years, but if affairs remain in their present state, it would require very convincing arguments to induce either me or the House to sanction a continuance of this measure. In answer to the hon. gentleman, he repeated, that it would in his opinion derogate from the honour of parliament and the public, were he by proposing any participation with the bank, to allow it to be inferred, that the country compromised the character of its currency for a pecuniary consideration.

took the earliest opportunity of protesting against this new measure, proposed with so little explanation, and in a time of peace, when it was to have been expected that the country would have returned to a healthy state of currency. He could not help being persuaded that when the right hon. gentleman concluded the agreement with the bank, by which the bank was to advance a large sum of money to the public, the continuation of the restriction was understood to be one of the conditions of the loan.

denied the truth of the last assertion made by the noble lord.

maintained its truth, in so far as was warranted by the general impression made on the minds of the bank proprietors on the subject.

positively declared, that the continuation of the restriction formed no part of the bargain which had been made by government with the bank.

exposed the dangers which would arise from a repetition (which the profuse issue of paper must occasion) of that revulsion, from the effects of which the country had scarcely yet recovered. Nothing could be more pernicious than thus to keep playing tricks with our currency.

observed, that though the exchange was favourable to us at present, care should be taken to avoid any measure that might prevent the gold from flowing in. This, he thought, would be the effect of taking off the bank restriction.

said, he had long given over the hope of seeing cash payments restored, and the present was another instance of the bad policy of admitting too close a connexion between the government and the bank of England.

represented the evils which would arise from returning to that artificial circulation, which gave to the country the semblance of prosperity, while it was on the verge of bankruptcy.

thought the right hon. gentleman's apprehensions much exaggerated, if not wholly unfounded. He enlarged on the benefits that would be derived from the act, and referred to the caution with which the bank had hitherto issued their notes, limiting them invariably to the necessity, as an assurance that similar prudence would guide their proceedings for the future.

said, the gold currency of this country at the time when we had a mixed circulation, had been stated by lord Liverpool, at the time of passing the restriction, to amount to thirty-two millions. If we required thirty-two millions then, we must require a much larger gold currency now when the wealth and industry of the country were nearly doubled. It would require a considerable time to put the country in possession of so much gold.

suggested the propriety of reporting progress, on account of the lateness of the hour and state of the House. He argued that the public ought to participate in the profits of the bank. Seeing the governor of the bank in his place, he wished to ask him, if when the loan of six millions was agreed to, the bank had not proposed the continuation of the restrictions?

said the two questions of the loan and the restrictions had never been opened together.

said, he had no doubt, from the answer of the governor of the bank, it was perfectly understood by the bank that the restrictions were to he continued. The noble lord (Castlereagh) had been mistaken in his authority respecting the thirty-two millions of gold currency at the time of passing the restrictions. The calculation was not made by the late lord Liverpool, but by the present treasurer of the navy, and it always appeared to him erroneous; it was founded on the number of guineas coined in the King's reign up to that time, and made no allowance for those exported or melted down. This, with the twelve millions of notes, made in all forty-four millions, a sum certainly much beyond the truth.

wished to put the noble lord in mind, that, from the contrivance of bankers and others, a smaller circulation than formerly was now sufficient.

said, the bank did not ask the restrictions.—It was the House that directed the bank not to pay.

Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.