presented a petition from several spinners and others employed in the cotton manufactories in the city of Carlisle, in the county of Cumberland; " complaining of the evil which has long prevailed of employing children in Cotton Mills for a length of time daily, which is not only evidently injurious to their health, but dangerous in an eminent degree to the morals of the youth of both sexes; and praying the House to adopt such measures as will be the means of putting a stop to such a serious evil, and restrict the labour of children and others in the cotton mills to a period daily which will permit their education, and promote their health and future welfare in society." Although these persons were in a humble class of life, the hon. baronet was sure the House would take as much notice of their petition as of any other that was laid before them. After it had been read, he should move, that it be referred to the committee above stairs, which was then occupied in examining the necessity of adopting some regulations with respect to the hours of labour that ought to be allowed in the cotton factories.

said, these petitioners were evidently misled by the measure proposed by an hon. baronet (sir Robert Peel) whose design they had certainly mistaken. The hon. baronet wished to regulate the labour of children in cotton factories, but the petitioners, in this case, were all free labourers, who could make their own bargain; but, it appeared, they wished to abridge their hours of employment, and, at the same time, to retain their present wages. If any severe regulation was attempted to be forced on them by their masters, they bad only to apply to the magistrate, and the disputed point would be set right. With respect to the measure of the hon. baronet, he doubted very much the soundness of the principle on which such an interference as he contemplated proceeded. It was an imputa- tion on the feelings of parents to suppose, that they would suffer their children to work, to the prejudice of their health; and it was also an imputation on gentlemen at the head of manufactories, to suppose that they would compel children to make excessive exertions.

in answer to what had fallen from Mr. Curwen, said, that where a great many children were assembled together, unless some regulation were devised for their proper government, the Most injurious consequences were to be apprehended. The cotton manufacture was now carried on through the medium of machinery; in working which great numbers of children, many of them the offspring of paupers, were employed; and, if they were not to be interfered with, their situation would be most deplorable.

said, the object of the petition was intirely different from the proposition of the hon. baronet. The petitioners were persons of adult age, and they complained of being over-worked; and, although they had the power of making their own bargain, they requested the assistance of the House. But the object of the hon. baronet was, to protect children of tender age, who were not able to protect themselves.

The petition was ordered to be referred to the committee appointed to take into consideration the state of the children employed in the different manufactories of the United Kingdom.

presented a petition from several noblemen, clergymen, gentlemen, and freeholders, inhabitants of the county of Wilts; setting forth, " that the petitioners, full of loyalty to their sovereign, and of confidence in the wisdom of parliament, disavow the principles of a petition lately sent from, and purporting to be, the petition of that county, to the House; they bear no part with those who would alienate the affections of the people from the constitutional authorities, happily established among us; they beseech the House to discountenance and resist the efforts of factious men, and to devise and execute all such measures as may tend to perpetuate the prosperity and happiness of this great country."—ordered to lie on the table.

presented a petition, numerously signed by the woollen manufacturers of Leeds, on the subject of the projected alteration in the laws relating to wool, which had been submitted to a committee above stairs. The principal object of the proposed alteration was, to allow the exportation of British wool. On a former occasion he had stated, that he never knew a subject which created greater alarm than this had done. The petitioners expressed their apprehensions of the mischief which an alteration would occasion, and hoped that the existing system would not be suffered to remain.

The Petition, which was signed by a considerable number of cloth merchants, trustees of cloth-halls, and wool-dealers, of Leeds, was then read. The petitioners expressed the greatest alarm, lest the contemplated duty on rape-seed imported, and the permission to export British wool, should be carried into effect, and prayed that no alteration should be made in the existing system.

said, he was glad the petition was presented in so full a House, because the subject deserved the most mature consideration. The petitioners, it appeared, were desirous that an additional duty should be placed on the importation of foreign wool. Now, he begged to take that opportunity of protesting in the strongest manner against the principle of relieving any one class of his majesty's subjects at the expense of another. Much of this petition proceeded on a principle, which, he thought, had been exploded. It was founded on the assumption, that the prosperity of this country would best be secured by laying restrictions on its commerce. With respect to the exportation of wool, however he might think abstractedly on that subject, it might, perhaps, under the present circumstances of the country, be right to accede to that part of the prayer of the petition. They were not to follow implicitly the opinions of those persons, but to weigh the whole of the subject maturely and deliberately before they came to a decision.

The petition was referred to the committee on the laws relating to the woollen trade.

gave notice that on the 2nd of May he would move, that his first charge against lord Ellenborough should be taken into consideration in a committee of the whole House. He wished to know if there would be any objection urged to his calling witnesses. If there were none, he would now give in a list of those he wished to call in order to substantiate his charge. Should this be opposed, he proposed submitting a motion to the House on the subject on Monday.

observed, that the noble lord must be aware that before the House could issue orders for the attendance of witnesses, they must adopt the determination to enter into the consideration of the charges. If that were once determined, they would then lend the necessary aid to all the parties in the case.

acquiescing in the propriety of this observation, repeated his first notice; but subsequently changed the day from the 2nd to the 3d of May.

was anxious to know, what was the nature of the measure which the right hon. gentleman opposite intended to propose, with reference to the office of clerk of the pleas of the court of exchequer in Ireland? And, whether there were any particular circumstances attending the mode in which that office was filled, which called for parliamentary interference?

said, that the object of the bill he intended to introduce was not to regulate the fees taken in the court of exchequer. The report on the subject of those fees was not yet presented, and the House had not that information before them, which alone could enable him to proceed with alterations. Neither was the bill intended to determine the right to appoint to the office of clerk of the exchequer. A nomination having been made by the chief baron, he did not intend to meddle with it; but he would leave that point to be decided by due course of law. The House, however, having expressed an opinion on the subject of this office—having stated, that, even if the Crown had appointed a person to fill it, a necessity existed for regulating, the fees, which, he believed, he under-rated, when he computed their amount to be from 25 to 30,000l. per annum—under these circumstances, and knowing it was possible that the ultimate decision on the question of the right of nomination, might be deferred for a year, the bill which he intended to introduce would provide for the impounding of all fees and emoluments derived from the office, until the disputed point was settled.

said, that several misrepresentations had gone, abroad on this subject. It had been asserted, that the person who now filled the office was a minor; he, however, was authorized by the chief baron of Ireland to state, that the individual appointed was not a minor. With respect to the emoluments, he did not think the amount of the fees was any thing like the sum the right hon. gentleman had stated. He was also authorized to state, that the most ample security would be given (so as to leave the receipt of the profits by the present holder of the situation perfectly unobjectionable) for any fees that might be paid to the clerk of the exchequer. He had been led to take this opportunity of mentioning the subject to the right hon. gentleman, because it did appear to him somewhat novel, in a case where a legal right was involved,—where a person was admitted to the office, on the ground that a legal right to the appointment was vested in a certain quarter—to proceed in the way proposed. The chief baron had not acted alone; he had made out such a primâ facie case, as to induce the whole court of exchequer to swear the person nominated by him, their officer. Without going into the ultimate question of right, the office being vacant, and the Crown not being aware of the circumstance, the right of nomination, ad interim, was in the chief baron. It might be an office in which the fees ought to be regulated or curtailed; about that he would say nothing—but, whether they were reduced or not, it was by no means a sinecure office. Twenty or thirty clerks were employed in it, from the beginning to the end of the year. It was, he conceived, somewhat novel—where a person was admitted to the situation, on a claim of right—where there was no minority—where full security was offered—that parliament should interfere pending a question of legal discussion, and sequester the fees and emoluments of the office.

said, it was not his intention to determine the right of nomination to this office. He meant not to say, whether it was in the Crown or not; or whether the fees belonged to the Crown or were to be considered public money. It could not be disputed, that the House, granting a sufficient remuneration to the person filling the office, had a right to regulate the fees; and, surely if they were em- powered to alter the rate of fees, they had an equal right to impound them. He believed, that the privilege of nomination was in the Crown. Here it rested with the chancellor of the exchequer; but, in Ireland, the power had always been exercised by the sovereign. Therefore, as far as precedent went, the question was quite clear. He had the opinion, in writing, of many able lawyers, on this point, who coincided with him in sentiment. The opinion of Mr. Standish O'Grady himself, when attorney-general, was rather favourable to the argument, that the Crown possessed the right of nomination—since the fiat of the last patent, when the Crown nominated to the situation, was signed " Standish O'Grady, attorney-general."

said, it certainly was in the power of parliament to act, in this case, as they would in that of any other individual. But, if they did so, there were many other offices of a similar nature, in the King's-bench and common pleas in Ireland, which were equally open to parliamentary inquiry and interference. In this country, also, offices of the same kind were to be met with in the King's-bench, common pleas, and exchequer. If, acting from a desire of economy, it was found necessary to interfere with the vested rights of individuals in all those offices, he should be the last man to object to it. But it did not appear to him to be a fair measure of justice (he did not mean to accuse the right hon. gentleman of a wish to act unjustly) to select this particular situation, and to make it the object of parliamentary inquiry.

said, that when he was asked a question on this subject, he had stated, that it was not intended to appoint any person to the office, until the emoluments were known. This showed that no narrow views had occasioned him to adopt his present course.

said, that last year, when a bill for the regulation of this office was brought into parliament, it was suspended on the express understanding, that that and other offices, being then under the consideration of a committee, no steps should be taken till the report of that committee was made. It therefore-stood entirely out of the line of any offices in this country.

said, there was another ground which placed this office in a very different situation from any in this country; namely, that the resolution of the House of Commons had prospective application to those which became vacant. It was said, that the chief baron of the court of exchequer in Ireland possessed the same privilege which the chancellor of the exchequer exercised here. But certainly the chief baron could not be considered at the head of the Irish court of exchequer. If he (Mr. Fitzgerald) had not believed the right of nomination to be vested in the Crown, he certainly would not have waived his claim in favour of an inferior judge of that court.

said, the amount of the fees, which the principal received, was about 10,000l. a-year. Those fees were ancient, legal, and just. It was the right of suitors, paying such fees, to have the business executed without farther expense. But here was the grievance—here arose the necessity of regulating the office. There were a number of persons employed, to whom a trifling sum of 20l. or 30l. per annum was paid. But they were allowed to remunerate themselves by fees of a very different description from those which the principal swept into his pocket. The amount of the emoluments of the deputy was about 7000l. per annum, of which be did not think one shilling was legal [Hear, hear!]. The second deputy had 3000l. a-year, made up by fees of exactly the same description. The six clerks helped themselves to fees of the like nature. One of them had 3000l., and several of them 2000l. per annum [Hear, hear!]. The right hon. secretary for Ireland had spoken within compass, when he said that the total amount of fees was 30,000l. a-year. Let the nomination be in whom it might, parliament, he contended, had a right to interfere, to see that the suitor's business was properly performed, and that he was not charged immoderately: 10,000l. per annum would fully pay every individual in the office, and leave an ample allowance for the principal.

said, no man felt more deeply than he did, the necessity of respecting vested interests; but he took that opportunity of observing, that, however the right of nomination to this office might ultimately be decided, the House could not be precluded from regulating it, as they thought proper. He did not suppose his learned friend meant to push his argument to this extent; but lest it should be imagined, that the decision on the disputed point would prevent the House from exercising its constitutional privilege of interference, he thought it necessary to protest against such a doctrine.

was surprised that his learned friend could have mistaken him. He did not mean, in the slightest degree, to deny the right of the House to interfere. They certainly had it in their power to inquire into any interest, vested or not. But, supposing this vested right should turn out to be a legal right, he thought it a novel proceeding, before the decision of the question, to sequester the fees of the office.

rose to present a petition from certain Roman Catholics of Ireland, on behalf of themselves and others of the same persuasion. The petition was agreed to at a general meeting of Roman Catholics, held in Dublin. The meeting was properly summoned, and the proceedings were most regular. No opposition whatever was made to the motion which led to the petition; and, therefore, it might be said to contain the sentiments of the great body of the Roman Catholics of that country. He did not mean to anticipate any thing that might occur on the discussion of this important subject; yet he would say a few words on some points connected with it, on which misrepresentation had gone abroad. He wished, particularly, that the House should learn what the Roman Catholics of Ireland intreated them to do, from an examination of their own expressed sentiments, and not from any misrepresentation of what they were supposed to have said. The petition was very short. It consisted of only two clauses. One contained the ground of their allegations, the other comprised the prayer. The petitioners said, that they were excluded from the benefits of the constitution—and they prayed that honourable House to relieve them from the oppressive grievances of which they complained, and to restore them to the unrestricted enjoyment of the rights of free subjects of the empire. The petition, as he understood from members of the Catholic body with whom he had conversed, was meant to apply only to that civil liberty, of which they were deprived. It left out all allusions to religion, and he hoped it would be considered on the liberal principle of conciliation and concession. There was another petition from another description of persons of the Roman Catholic persuasion, which his right hon friend (Mr. Grattan) would present in a few days. Some persons conceived, that this was a proof of a difference of opinion; and they expressed their belief that divisions of this nature would defeat the application of the petitioners to parliament in the present session. He wished the House to know what this difference really was, because he thought, on examination, it would not be found one of a solid character. The petition now before the House, abstained entirely from the mention of all ecclesiastical arrangement—the other stated, that the petitioners were ready to submit and conform to any regulations, not incompatible with the principles and discipline of their religion. From this it was inferred, that there was a great degree of difference between the parties. But he certainly was bound to say, that the division was one rather of imagination than of real and substantial form. The charge was not well-founded, when it was said, that one party was ready to sacrifice their religion for personal advantages; and, on the other side, it was not correct to suppose, that the persons whose petition he now presented were so exceedingly unreasonable as to do away altogether with measures of temperate and proper regulation. In consequence of circumstances which had occurred, the Catholic body had signified their intention of presenting an address to his royal highness the Prince Regent, praying his royal highness to recommend their case to the consideration of the House. Under these circumstances, it was not his intention to give notice of any motion on the subject. By the proceeding to which he had alluded, the Roman Catholics had placed their case in the hands of his majesty's ministers. He trusted ministers would take advantage of this opportunity, to pay the fullest attention to the subject, for it was their bounden duty to bring the question to a decision. There were many strong reasons why this question had not hitherto been brought forward by ministers. The war and other circumstances might be pleaded in defence of the conduct they had thought proper to adopt. But BOW, when the country was at peace, and when the state of Ireland, as described by the right hon. secretary, was said to demands a force of 25,000 men, he hoped the noble lord (Castlereagh) and his colleagues would feel that the time was come, when it was proper for his majesty's ministers themselves to undertake the question.

The petition was then read; setting forth, " That the petitioners are excluded from the enjoyment of the free constitution of these realms; and that they are subjected to the endurance of such exclusion, not on account of any imputed deficiency of disposition or of ability in the service of the Crown, or support of the state, but solely on account of their conscientious adherence to that religion which was professed by those princes and patriots of Great Britain, who originated and matured her justly boasted constitution; that the petitioners again implore the House to grant to them the redress of the oppressive grievances of which they so justly complain, and to restore them to the full and unrestricted enjoyment of the rank of free subjects of the empire."

Ordered to lie on the table.

in rising to submit to the House a motion on the State of Ireland, to call their attention to its condition both internally and as it respected its connexion with Great Britain, observed, that there was no member of that respectable body which he was then addressing who was more sensible of the infinite importance of the task which he had undertaken, or of the very inadequate ability which he possessed for its execution. Why, then, have I thus obtruded myself when there are within this assembly men who, more competent in every respect to the discharge of this duty, possess talents and research to give due weight to the subject, and can give a more lively colouring to the dreary picture? In this great cause my anxiety and zeal have outrun my ability. I trust, however, though a feeble advocate, I shall state a case which will demand the serious attention of the House, and I have the satisfaction of knowing that there are amongst the auditors those who can amply supply my defects, and in particular my two hon. friends the representatives of the city and university of Dublin. The House will hear, and, I have no doubt, justly appreciate the sentiments of those two distinguished members.

In looking at the question of the state of Ireland, it is impossible to view it without reflecting on the errors in the government of that country at different periods and during a long succession of centuries. I shall do this with reluctance, but it is a duty which I am bound to discharge; and I am confident the assembly which I ad- dress are convinced that the state of Ireland cannot be rightly considered, or well understood, without reference to the errors of its governments at several periods, as the sources from whence its misfortunes have arisen. I shall, then, proceed as briefly and as dispassionately as possible, to state the causes which have led to its present condition, but fear I cannot do so without requesting the indulgence of the House in the time which I must necessarily occupy.

It will naturally be asked by an impartial inquirer, why Ireland has not been infinitely more improved by its long connexion during six centuries with England? —why it still has to complain of evils, which were the subject of animadversion in the early periods of that connexion? The answer is obvious—the inference irresistible—it has been misgoverned. No other cause can be assigned. History does not afford a single instance of any two countries, so long united under the same government, which have not assimilated in manners, customs, and habits. Ireland is the solitary and melancholy exception to this general rule. It is, then, fit to inquire from whence this has proceeded, and for that purpose to look at the state of Ireland, as it is represented to us in different periods since her first connexion with this country. Great assistance has been fortunately afforded to this research by impartial historians, who have delivered to us unquestionable testimonies on the subject. The first period to which I shall refer, is the commencement of the reign of James 1st, when that excellent work of sir John Davis appeared, tracing, in the most clear and perspicuous manner, the misgovernment of Ireland, during the first four centuries of her connexion with England: in that golden volume the impartial and well-informed author displays, with statesman-like ability, the dreadful state of turbulence and confusion to which she had been consigned, and the repeated refusals to give to the natives the benefits of British law. He adduces from the records upon charges of murder, the question repeatedly put in issue, whether the murdered person were de Hibernico sanguine, or of English parentage;—if the former, the murderer was fined five marks; if the latter, he suffered death.^* " Our law," says the honest historian, " did nei- ther protect his life nor avenge his death. All good laws made at any time during this epoch were for the English pale only." The Irish must therefore have only looked upon that law, the advantages and blessings of which were denied them, as enacted solely for their oppression. "This, then, I note," says sir John Davis, " that if the English would neither in peace govern them by the law, nor could in war root them out by the sword, must they not needs be pricks in their eyes, and thorns in their sides till the world's end? " There can never be unity and concord in any kingdom but where there is but one king, one allegiance, and one law." I have the more fully adverted to and cited this intelligent and impartial historian, because, much to my surprise, his authority has been elsewhere adduced, to prove that the Irish were always indisposed to pay obedience to the laws. His opinion is directly the reverse, and he concludes his valuable treatise with this his decided declaration, " There is no nation under the sun that doth love equal and impartial justice better than the Irish, or will rest better satisfied with the execution thereof, although it be against themselves, so as they may have the protection and benefit of the law when upon just cause they do desire it."

^* 29 Edw. 1st, at Drogheda—4 Edw. 2d, at Limerick.—Sir J. Davis, 78, 79.

It can be scarcely necessary to remind the House that it is protection not punishment only which the people are entitled to expect from their code of laws, and that it is from their experiencing that protection they look up to the law with affection and regard. It is thus, that in every well-governed state the people become active agents in the due administration of justice, and it is from the practical enjoyment of, that blessing Great Britain derives her well ordered security. The Irish people continued deprived generally of the benefits of British law until after the rebellions of O'Neill and Desmond, when James the first undertook the colonization of that large portion of Ireland which had been forfeited: ^* he carried it on, unfortunately, rather on the principle of garrisoning a hostile country than uniting the people of one island with another, as peaceable and mutually satisfied nations should have been connected. To the war of arms under Elizabeth, shortly after succeeded the war of chicane; of vexatious inquisitions into defective titles; resumption of grants made and paid for upon the most frivolous pretences, and the refusal of what were called the graced (a confirmation of titles by the Crown), after receiving large parliamentary subsidies as the price under sir John Chichester and Strafford. The extreme iniquity of these transactions had disgusted and alienated the body of the people, when those unfortunate disputes arose between the parliament and the Crown which produced the civil wars of England; and Ireland became the victim of the intrigues of agents authorized by, or having the semblance of authority from Charles. Incited to take up arms for the royal cause by Glamorgan, she was involved in all the dreadful calamities which conflicting religious opinions, a deep sense of injuries received, and the artful machinations of a papal nuncio, aided by a bigotted clergy, could draw down upon it. She was plunged into scenes of bloodshed and horror too dreadful to be described. Sir William Petty calculates that in eleven years, from 1641 to 1652, 690,000 perished, " for whose blood somebody must answer to God and to the king." Cromwell, with his exterminating sword, put down for a time the wearied and exhausted combatants for and against the monarchy.

^* 2,800,000 Irish acres were forfeited in Ulster by the rebellion of O'Neill in the reign of Elizabeth, and 574,000 were forfeited in Munster by the rebellion of Desmond.

On the Restoration the counsels by which Ireland was governed, exhibit a disgusting picture of the most corrupt and crooked policy. Her interests were sacrificed to the private resentment of the conflicting ministers, or the unfounded prejudices of the English people; and in the striking instance of the Cattle Bill ^* between 1664 and 1666, the rights and feelings of a whole nation were wantonly sported with by Shaftesbury and Buckingham, to annoy and gall the duke of Ormond. James's bigotted violence committed the country to the furious zeal of Tyrconell, who rekindled the flame and produced its accustomed dreadful results. The Irish Catholics viewed the exiled monarch as an object of attachment, unsuccessfully supported his cause, and again became the objects of vengeance to an army of conquerors.

With the Revolution came honour, glory, and independence to Britain; but to Ireland no such bright prospects! The victors treated those whom they subdued, and those who aided them in the conquest with the same revolting indifference. The era which succeeded to the revolution was in Ireland marked by the sordid characters of illiberal exclusion and monopoly within and without,—its interior concerns abandoned to the exercise of a vindictive provincial tyranny by its English masters, who covenanted for the surrender of its external and commercial concerns to British monopoly—a barter disgraceful to both countries, and involving the compleat sacrifice of national and commercial rights. ^* The Protestant interest, as it was then called, became the object to which every other consideration gave way, and every measure which was alleged to contribute to it, secured by that allegation the unqualified support of the Irish parliament, whilst they passively acquiesced in the destruction of their woollen manufactures. Then arose that code of penal law which has been designated by the chancellor, lord Camden, as " a monstrous monument of folly and oppression, which was sufficient to demoralize the country, and which had completely fulfilled that purpose." In Primate Boulter's Letters, we find in every page from one of her governors, evidence of the corrupt and petty artifices by which the system was supported. In the case of Wood's halfpence, he says, " the measure was much to be lamented, as it generally interested the people, had extinguished their divisions, and tended to unite the whole country." In. a letter to lord Carteret, he says, " that although to prevent a recurrence of scarcity approaching to famine, he had forwarded a bill obliging the occupant of lands to plough five acres in every hundred occupied, yet it does not encourage tillage by allowing any bounty to exporters which might clash with British interests." The act was passed in the year 1729, but was inefficacious; for during forty years, from 1732, with the exception of one year, the import of corn was constant,—it was probably counteracted by that monstrous vote of the House of Commons of 1735, which stripped the clergy of Ireland of a large proportion of their provision, and declared the tithe of agistment to be " grievous, burthensome, and injurious to the Protestant interest." In this manner did these champions of Protestantism assert the rights of a Protestant church. From this vote, and the consequently insufficient provision of the clergy, arose the practice of uniting parishes, so as to deprive of spiritual assistance from their pastors, the Protestant population during that period and since the conversion of pasturage into tillage through so great an extent of the country increasing in an enormous and disproportionate degree, the incomes of the parochial clergy, resident and non-resident.

^* For the disgusting intrigues respecting this bill, see Carte's Life of the Duke of Ormond.

^* " The first of the penal laws being made with so general a satisfaction of the ruling parliamentary party, as the chief governors found that such things were extremely acceptable to the leading people in that country, they were willing enough to gratify them with the ruin of their fellow citizens. They were not sorry to divert their attention from other inquiries, and to keep them fixed to this, as if this had been the only real object of their national politics; and for many years there was not a speech from the throne, which did not, with great appearance of seriousness, recommend the passing of such laws, until they have by degrees grown to be the most considerable head in the Irish Statute Book."—See Tracts on the Popery Laws. Burke's Works, vol. ix, p. 395.

The temper with which the Irish parliament legislated, was manifested even in the least important of their proceedings. When a petition was presented complaining that a Roman Catholic coal-merchant employed porters of his own persuasion, it was referred by the House of Commons to the committee of grievances. Was it, then, surprising that a parliament thus completely severing its interests from those of the body of the people, should possess no solid strength, or that the English minister should be encouraged by that disunion to attempt a measure which, if successful, would have sealed the death-warrant of parliaments in Ireland?—I allude to the proposition of voting the supplies for twenty-one years, which failed only by a single vote. The parliament of George 2nd sat thirty-three years, outliving all connexion with the constituent body, and possessing but one solitary virtue, that of economy: it paid off the debt of the country, and accumulated a surplus in the exchequer of 200,000l. in the year 1753, both rescued from the factions who contended for its possession, and transferred to England by a king's letter. It is a most extraordinary effect on the human mind of this provincial misrule grounded on what was termed Protestant ascendancy, that Dean Swift, calling himself and looked up to as an Irish patriot, expressed himself delighted with the prospect of beggary being the certain lot of the Irish Roman Catholics, and more than insinuates a wish that the Protestant Dissenters were in the same state. Henry Boyle, the first earl of Shannon, too, who, as one of the lords justices, was in the government of Ireland more than twenty-five years, in a Sketch of Ireland, written in 1747, states a principal cause why so great and fruitful a country produced so little, and advanced so slowly towards improvement to be the penal code, " discouraging the labour and industry of the Papists, though three-fourths of the arts, industry, and labour of the country must be necessarily carried on by their hands," and adds, " until some happy temper can be fallen upon so as to make our apprehensions from the Papists consist with our interest to employ them, Ireland can advance but slowly in improvement." And yet to measures of this nature Mr. Boyle could not reconcile himself! So difficult is it for men of even superior minds to disengage themselves from the fetters of prejudice and bigotry! I may by the way add, it appears from this paper, that nearly every fourth year from the Revolution had been a year of scarcity, and in that interval nearly five millions were paid for imported corn and flour to feed the inhabitants of that fertile island.

The septennial bill, passed in 1767, secured to a certain extent the connexion between the electors and elected: with this exception, Ireland felt little change in her situation till the year 1778. In that year the reverses of the American war left Ireland without a military force—and here commenced the era of her glory. She was told to protect herself, and she did so. She protected herself from her enemies abroad, and from her enemies at home. The gallantry, the concord, and the heroism of her sons placed her in a situation to command respect, and she was respected—till she respected herself Britain did not respect her—Ireland then first took her station amongst the nations of the earth, when it ceased to be a divided nation. I discharge a debt of justice due to him who sits beside me (Mr. Grattan)—to him Ireland owes much; and to whom she has in return testified her ardent gratitude; his exertions awakened us to a sense of our rights—and hence the brightest page in our annals of glory. Having asserted her independence, little was wanting to its continuance—but here she failed! Those who had gained a victory over others did not possess sufficient virtue to extend that conquest to themselves. The Protestant population, the leaders in this struggle, had not public spirit enough to share the fruits of, victory with the great body of the people, and therefore they fell. I trust their fate will afford a salutary lesson to every country, and impress on them the conviction that, by complete consolidation of interests alone, can they avoid a similar calamity. I ought to add (what, indeed, is most deserving the attention of the House), during this triumph of Ireland in the absence of military force, and whilst she thus nobly exerted herself to take her rank amongst the nations, the laws were better obeyed than during any period of her history. Every one lent his willing aid to enforce their execution. What a great lesson to be drawn from this. Place a country in a state of concord with regard to itself, and the laws will be obeyed; no longer seek to govern by disunion or by sacrificing one class of the community, and the laws will be obeyed. Why has not this memorable lesson of the weakness of that policy which would exclude from the full benefits of a free constitution the great body of the people, produced its full effect? Why has not Ireland resumed that happy situation? Why is not the spirit of her government assimilated to that of England? Here every man, however humble his condition, whatever his political tenets, feels an interest in the laws, and contributes to their execution, for they efficaciously protect him, and neither rank nor power can violate them with impunity.

I cannot draw such a happy picture of the state of Ireland. This brilliant period of her history Was transient; those who had been borne down by the unanimity and spirit of the people, soon commenced their efforts to weaken the principles which they could not resist, and the war against independence was renewed, which sought by disunion to degrade the people. Addresses from grand juries, bigotted and inflammatory; whatever could revive dormant animosities and cherish forgotten jealousies was urged with active and too successful industry by the satellites of an old and corrupt monopoly of power. I wish to speak of these times with as much moderation and temper as possible; but I cannot trace the lamentable effects to their causes without stating my opinions to the House unreservedly; and whether I speak of the dead or living will anxiously abstain from crimination where public duty will allow. I come to the act of 1793—an act of paramount importance,—but I will not blend the vital subject of Catholic emancipation with this discussion; it well deserves, and I doubt not will receive, the undivided attention of the House. Thus much, however, I will here say of that act: it is perfectly certain that Mr. Pitt and lord Melville would have extended its provisions much farther could they have obtained the concurrence of the Irish government—but they worked with unwilling instruments. How otherwise account for the anomalous nature of that statute, and the capriciousness of its relaxation and exclusion? Why the road to distinction closed totally to the bar, and opened largely to the army? Can this be traced to any other cause than the powerful influence of a great legal character, who, inimical to all concession, claimed that, at least, the honours of his own profession should form an exception?

Subsequent unhappy changes dashed the cup from the lips of the people when they were about to taste it, and led to all the dreadful consequences which ensued. Over that calamitous period, I would, as bound in duty, draw a veil, and proceed to the legislative union under which we are here assembled. The pledge necessarily, and indeed specifically involved in that measure was, that of effectual inquiry into, and redress of the evils affecting Ireland,—redress which it was alleged an imperial parliament was more competent to afford and likely to extend than a local legislature. On what other principle could any but the most corrupt have acceded to such a compact, involving the surrender of national independence? I might on this head refer with safety to the noble lord in the blue ribbon. Look to the records of parliament from the union, and see how few the acts of grace or favour to Ireland! then turn to the page of history and count the sacrifices she has made in finance, in exertions, and in blood! She has fought by your side through every danger to which you have been exposed, with a gallantry and a self-devotion never surpassed by any nation. She has contributed, too, from her pecu- niary resources, far beyond her due proportion. Sixty-seven millions have been paid into the exchequer by taxes since the union, at the annual rate of four millions and a half, whilst in the fifteen preceding years her taxes did not exceed one million and a half. She has, therefore, trebled her taxation, and made exertions exceeding her strength. In proof of this assertion, look to the various measures proposed by her finance ministers. Had they answered the estimates of their authors, the taxation of Ireland would now have approached ten millions, instead of five and a half. They overrated the ability of their country. The debt, too, has swelled in this period from 34 to nearly 150 millions. If Ireland has thus fulfilled her part of the contract,—if her money and her blood have been thus largely contributed to her utmost means, may she not claim, in return from the imperial parliament, a completion of the compact—that some inquiry shall be instituted into her state—that a country, possessing six millions of inhabitants, an active and an intelligent race of men, placed in the most temperate climate of the globe, with every blessing of nature largely poured out on it, may no longer remain a source of alarm to the empire, but become a pillar of strength? —Why is this? Can the tranquillity of Ireland be less an object than that of any portion of Great Britain? Will you—can you— continue to rest for security in Ireland on a garrison of 25,000 men? I acquiesced in that measure, expressly as one of temporary necessity, to put down outrage and crime, but not permanent. Were such a system permanent, not 25,000 but 50, not 50 but 100,000 men would be insufficient to keep down Ireland. They have fough in the ranks with you, and you know their gallantry and their spirit such as would never brook this undeserved treatment. It is the duty of parliament to take care their blood has not been shed in vain; and that as they have shared with you in your triumphs, they shall share the fruits of conquest—internal tranquillity and peace. They claim it from your justice—not as a favour, but a right.

What has been the history of the statute book since the union, but a catalogue of Habeas Corpus suspensions and insurrection acts. On one head, indeed, the imperial parliament has made an exception, and done ample, justice to the expectations of Ireland—I mean the relaxation of com- mercial jealousy; and with that relaxation have grown those resources which she has largely poured forth for common defence.—The noble lord (Castlereagh) must know the danger of delay, and feel that many desirable arrangements might heretofore have been more efficacious than even at present;—each year's delay diminishes their efficacy, and I will add their safety.—And here let me ask, why are Orange associations still suffered to divide the land? Why still permitted to agitate the public mind by the insulting badges of exclusive loyalty and party triumph? When their introduction here was attempted, the noble lord, the member for Liverpool, all sides of the House proclaimed their illegality and reprobated the attempt. Would Scotland now be tranquil if the victory of Culloden had been annually celebrated in Edinburgh? Much is to be forgiven on all sides, and the veil, the salutary veil of oblivion should not be drawn aside by every rash intruder who would mark the great body of the people as disaffected to the state. Illicit distillation is a source of much evil to Ireland, demoralizing her people, and encroaching on her scanty resources of taxation. It is, as I fear, too much protected by individuals of rank and power, and largely practised by the professors of exclusive loyalty. No man, however high in station, should be allowed to protect his dependents in a course of disobedience to law, nor should alleged loyalty secure any class of the community from sharing the burthens of the state. Parliament has indeed contributed to the extension of this ruinous course, by that monstrous act which, remitting penalties incurred to highly offending districts, sanctioned that shocking principle, that in the enormous extent of his offences the delinquent should find his best security. The office of high sheriff, here accounted burthensome, is in Ireland a cause of political contest, and the appointment and means of attaching powerful individuals to the government of the day. It has been strongly, but I believe truly, said in another place that this office in its execution is radically vicious—so vicious, said a noble lord, that justice is poisoned at its source.—To the subject of grand juries I will not advert; it is in a train of exact and, I hope, effectual inquiry.—The tithe system too, well deserves minute investigation, as largely contributing to the disorganization of Ireland, Another evil afflicts us, to which the executive government can alone apply a remedy, by discountenancing that course which it has too often pursued. Those then who traduce and vilify the great body of their countrymen, should feel that such conduct can never lead to power or emolument.

If I am now asked why at an earlier period I have not proposed to the House a similar inquiry, I answer, in 1804 I urged it ineffectually. From that time the country has been engaged in un-remitted and extended warfare; but to some of the labours of 1806, the statute book will bear testimony. I know no danger so great as that of discontented subjects. We are now arrived at a season of profound tranquillity; and if the House shall decide that no attempt shall be made to trace to their source those evils which afflict Ireland, and endanger the empire, it will be my duty to bow to their decision, but I shall then deeply deplore the day which connected Ireland to this country by legislative union. Never, has such a favourable moment presented itself,—and with unfeigned sorrow should I see it pass away unprofitably. I am astonished that the ministers who have, by the disturbed state of Ireland, justified their claim for extended military force, do not themselves propose remedial measures: one and one only, has been adverted to—education, Of its superior efficacy, no man can think more highly than I do, as providing largely for future amelioration. But can we look to this as a remedy for existing evils? I may be permitted, too, to say that if by education be intended the capacity of reading and writing, I believe the Irish are not an uneducated people; certainly not as compared with the people of England: the reports, before the House prove this. Mr. Newnham, in a work containing much useful information, states, from actual inquiry, that in a district comprising about one half of the county of Cork, there were upwards of 300 unendowed schools, educating not less than 22,000 children; and here I have to instance conduct highly honourable to a Roman Catholic clergyman, Mr. O'Brien of Doneraile, who having established a Catholic school, and endowed it with one half of his private property, offered to subscribe to the establishment of a Protestant school in that parish, as largely, in proportion to his means, as any other parishioner;—this I consider as real liberality, without any object but the common good;

and I would say to the clergy of every persuasion through the empire, " Go and do thou likewise." Education can however be no cure for the political evils of Ireland, unless accompanied by radical reform of the present vicious system;—it has grown out of the accumulated misgovernment of many centuries, and it is the bounden duty of parliament to institute exact inquiry into the causes and effects of that system—to search it to the bottom, and neither to be allured nor deterred from the path of duty by prejudice or power. No class of men, great or small, should be allowed to impede reform; but with a steady and firm hand, parliament should carry through the measures necessary to the welfare and the security of the state. I move you,

" That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, humbly to represent, that the necessity of providing an army of 25,000 men in time of profound peace, to secure the internal tranquillity of Ireland, obliges us to consider the state of that great, valuable, and interesting portion of the united kingdom, as most distressing and afflicting to the legislature, and dangerous in an extreme degree to the well-being of the empire:

" That we feel ourselves imperiously called upon by a sense of public duty, to direct to the consideration of this important subject our earnest and undivided attention:

" That we therefore pray his royal highness may be pleased to order, that there be laid before us, with convenient speed, such documents as may put us fully in possession of the extent and nature of the evils which demand the temporary application of this great military force, and may enable us to proceed with active and unceasing energy to their complete investigation:

" That we have armed the executive government, with all the means requisite to suppress tumult, and punish outrage, and we would now apply all our powers to a deliberate examination of the existing evils, and the causes from whence they originate, as the surest foundation for our affording to his royal highness the cordial and active concurrence of this House in such measures as shall be proposed for their effectual removal, and for adopting such ether wholesome and efficacious remedies, formed in the spirit of British constitutional legislation, as may appear to our dispas- sionate judgment most adequate to effect the extirpation of those evils, with which Ireland is afflicted, and to rescue that fair portion of the empire, from its present depression and disorganization."

The motion having been read from the chair,

rose. He said, he trusted that the House, when they considered the important nature of the discussion then before them, and the necessity which he should be under of offering explanations upon the character and intentions of that government with which he had been connected, as well as other opinions more peculiarly connected with himself, would do him the justice to believe that he could not approach the subject without considerable anxiety. In the first place, he wished to render his acknowledgment to the right hon. baronet for the tone and temper of moderation which he had generally displayed. He said generally, for with one or two exceptions he had carefully and judiciously avoided mixing up other matters relating to the affairs of Ireland, with that peculiar view of her present condition, which it was the proposed object of the right hon. baronet's motion to bring under the consideration of the House. The right hon. baronet had abstained from examining the conduct of this or that administration, and had most wisely confined his attention to the general question of the distresses and grievances which agitated Ireland. In adopting that course, he thought the right hon. baronet had conferred a substantial benefit upon the country. It had been too much the custom, in discussing the interests of Ireland, to mingle them with considerations of party, a proceeding which he must always deprecate, for though there might be vicissitudes of defeat on one side, and triumph on the other, yet many bad passions were arrayed on both, and the consequences were most unfortunate for the country, which was the scene of such political contentions. Nothing but desolation and disaster could result from them. It was therefore his intention to follow the example which the right hon. baronet had so laudably set.

With respect to the motion of the right hon. baronet, he thought he was rather precipitate in the conclusions which he drew as to its probable reception, and indeed he heard those inferences with considerable surprise, when he seemed to suppose that all inquiry would be refused. He certainly expressed that surprise, because he thought the right hon. baronet had abandoned those intentions which he previously communicated to him (Mr. Peel) with so much candour and politeness, of merely moving an address to the throne, calling for information respecting the causes which had produced the present disturbed state of Ireland. Before he ventured to condemn the course which he presumed his majesty's ministers would pursue, he ought, at least, to have told the nature of the inquiry he intended to propose; whether he should move for a public or a select Committee of that House. With certain parts of the address proposed by the right hon. baronet, he had the satisfaction of saying that it was his intention to concur. It was but reasonable that the House, after having voted 25,000 men for the service of Ireland, should not rest satisfied as to the necessity of that force, upon the mere assertion of any individual. He certainly would not avail himself of the technical formality that the House having come to that vote, they ought to have inquired before they sanctioned the measure. It would be an unworthy subterfuge on his part, and but a poor return for that liberality and confidence which had induced them to assent to the proposition, in the first instance, without calling for documents [Hear, hear!]. The first part of the address went merely to the expression of regret, on the part of the House, at that state of disturbance and outrage which rendered it necessary, in a time of peace, to call for the temporary application of a military force. In that part of it he was perfectly ready to concur; nor did he think the House could possibly refuse to accede to the other part also, which called for information as to the nature and extent of the disturbances which prevailed. For his part, he was ready to afford that information; and it would be best afforded by producing those records from courts of justice in which commitments and convictions had taken place. Much useful information, he was persuaded, would be derived from those documents. He could not, however, help thinking, that if the right hon. baronet thought it necessary to call for such information, it was somewhat precipitate in him to pledge the House to a general inquiry without explaining the sort of inquiry he desired to institute,—how it was to be conducted,—and by whom. Did he intend to propose a committee of the whole House, or did he mean to refer that important question to a select committee? Would he wish to transfer to the latter an inquiry into the operation of the laws affecting the Roman Catholics,—a question which had been, session after session, under the consideration of the House, and which he himself admitted to be of so much importance as a separate subject of inquiry, that he had abstained from all mention of it in the course of his speech? These were points upon which, in his opinion, the right hon. baronet ought to have afforded some explanation. When the information which he (Mr. Peel) intended to move for should be produced, it would then be competent for the House to decide what course ought to be pursued. He did not wish to discourage all expectation of its being possible to apply some remedy to the evils which afflicted Ireland. But, if he believed with the right hon. baronet, that the present state of tumult and disorder had grown out of the abuses and errors of six hundred years of mismanagement; if, by quotations from the writings of Dean Swift, he were to, attempt to show the poverty, wretchedness, and cowardice of the Irish; if he undertook to prove from the operation of laws enacted before the reign of James 1st, that the affections of the people had been incessantly and violently alienated; if he undertook to show all those calamities, then, indeed, he could not much encourage the hopes of the right hon. baronet. Without, however, going so far as that, he was still inclined to think that the difficulties and evils which encompassed Ireland, formed a Gordian knot which could not be cut, and which only the gradual lapse of time could unravel.

Before he followed the right hon. baronet through all the details into which he had entered, the House would probably expect from him a statement of what was the present condition of Ireland. Generally speaking, the north of Ireland was tranquil. No disturbances prevailed there, except what arose from distillation, and the consequent opposition to the revenue laws in certain districts. Those, however, were neither serious nor alarming. The extreme west of Ireland, also the counties of Mayo, Galway, and Carlow, were comparatively tranquil. The same might be said of the south of Ireland, of Cork, Wexford, &c. The east of Ireland was likewise ge- nerally tranquil. He meant that in those counties no applications had been made to government for extraordinary police. The counties in which disturbances actually prevailed were Tipperary, King's County, Westmeath, and Limerick. The magistrates of the King's county had requested the application of the insurrection act; but they had since petitioned for its removal, asserting that tranquillity was perfectly restored. In Westmeath and Limerick, a considerable improvement had taken place, but the insurrection act was still in force. Since he last addressed the House, the magistrates of the county of Louth and county of Cavan, had petitioned the government of Ireland for the application, not of the insurrection act, but of the extraordinary police act. Such was the general state of Ireland at the present moment. There was nothing more difficult than to give the House a character of the precise nature of the disturbances which now agitated Ireland. In former periods of the history of that country, tumults and outrage had subsisted, but they were generally to be traced to small and comparatively unimportant causes. Particular and local grievances, personal animosities, or hereditary feuds, constituted the principal sources of them. At other times, grievances of a more distinct and positive nature were alleged, such as the high price of land, for example, and then the professed object of the combinations was to lower it. But the disturbances which now prevailed had no precise or definite cause. They seemed to be the effect of a general confederacy in crime—a comprehensive conspiracy in guilt—a systematic opposition to all laws and municipal institutions. The records of the courts of justice would show such a settled and uniform system of guilt, such monstrous and horrible perjuries, as could not? he believed, be found in the annals of any country on the face of the globe, whether civilised or uncivilised. He was far from meaning to say that those dreadful offences arose from the generally malignant or depraved character of the lower orders. In different counties different appearances were presented. He had himself been in some, and it was impossible to find any where men more tractable, more obedient to the laws, or more disposed to pay all due deference to their superiors. He was ready to declare that it was impossible to see them without admiring many of their qualities. He be- lieved, indeed, that the character of the Irish people had been variously misrepresented, in general, not from any deliberate design, but because, in fact, they were often presented under different and singular aspects. From his observation of them, he believed they possessed great fidelity; in their dealings with each other great honesty; from their early marriages, they were in general very chaste;and be it told to their honour, that certain crimes which disgraced and degraded more civilised countries were utterly unknown to them. He was even told that the Irish language did not possess a name by which they could be designated. But in those parts of Ireland, especially in the county of Tipperary, their depravity was shocking. If any one should urge that he overstated it, he was prepared to confute him by irrefragable documents. He did not speak from vague and ambiguous rumours. What said the records of the courts of justice in that county? What would be the evidence of the twelve men impannelled to try the midnight murderers of an invaluable magistrate belonging to that county? If he required proof for what he had asserted, he need go no further. If any one would take the trouble to peruse the minutes of that trial, they would be able to form a thorough idea of the character of the people. They would see their extraordinary fidelity to each other in a bad cause—the facilities they afforded to escape punishment—the readiness they manifested to redress the injuries offered to any of their party—the difficulty of bringing home conviction to the guilty, and the detestation in which every one was held who at all contributed, or was instrumental in giving effect to the laws against them. With respect to the murder of that magistrate, he was afraid it was too clearly established, from the records of the court of justice, that it had been planned several weeks before it was carried into execution. The magistrate upon whom the foul deed was committed, was a most amiable man. He spoke only from the opinions of others, as he had not the least knowledge-of him personally. He was kind, indulgent, and a ready friend to the poor; but at the same time he was a most determined enemy to that terrible system of combination which prevailed. In the neighbourhood of his dwelling, a house had been burned down, because the inhabitant of that house had taken land at higher rent than was thought a proper equivalent by those misguided men. The magistrate, in consequence, exerted himself to discover the offenders, and by his indefatigable efforts six of them were apprehended. Upon this, the remainder determined to murder him. On the day fixed for the atrocious act, there were no less than four different parties stationed on different roads waiting for his approach. The murder was committed at some distance from Cashel, and the particulars which he related were derived from a gentleman who happened to be travelling that road at the time, and resembling the magistrate (Mr. Baker) in person, narrowly escaped from falling a sacrifice. Information was conveyed by signals from one party to another. The gentleman to whom he alluded saw several persons on the tops of the houses and hay-ricks, waiting for the fatal catastrophe. When the shot was fired, loud cheers were uttered by those who were thus waiting, and then they all retreated. The plan, therefore, had evidently been determined upon months before it was put in execution; and although no less than 13,000l. were offered as a reward for apprehending the murderers, by the government and by the resident gentry in the county, he believed no evidence whatever was obtained as the result of that offer; such was their fidelity in a bad cause, and such was the abominable system of confederacy upon which they acted. Not a person was found to come forward and make a voluntary disclosure. He would mention one conclusive proof of the feelings by which they were actuated. One of the murderers who was apprehended, and afterwards hanged for his crime, when in prison, expressed a desire to disclose some particulars. His life was offered as the promised reward for his confession. He accordingly communicated a part; but he afterwards retracted, at the instigation of his wife, who went on her knees to him in the prison, and implored him to be executed rather than divulge the secret [A laugh, and hear, hear!]. The House might probably smile at the conjugal affection of the woman, but he could assure them, there was as much attachment between the husband and the wife as could possibly exist between two persons, and the concern which she felt was, lest her husband should forfeit his character and respectability by betraying his friends. He actually retracted, in consequence of the persuasions of his wife, and was accordingly executed.

Having thus admitted those melancholy facts, he now came to the statements which had been made by the right hon. baronet. The causes of the evils which afflicted Ireland were complicated in no common degree. They might, he was willing to allow, be traced back to a very remote period in some respects. Sir John Davis, in that invaluable Treatise on the State of Ireland, which the right hon. baronet had justly denominated a Golden Book, stated that the evils originated in the impolicy of the first conquest of Ireland. That conquest was not undertaken by a sovereign at the head of an army, but was accomplished by instalments, if he might so speak. Different parties of adventurers went over to Ireland, subdued detached portions of territory, and as they progressively made those acquisitions, they gradually assumed a paramount authority over the native inhabitants. The evils of that kind of conquest were sufficiently proved by the history of Ireland. Other writers also had pointed out the defects of the system adopted towards Ireland. An impartial one (he meant Spencer, who wrote in the reign of queen Elizabeth) had forcibly stated the impolicy of excluding Ireland from the benefits of the English law. In fact, there were a hundred customs which then existed, though but now operating, which gradually tended to form the character of the people. Sir John Davis observed, that by the ancient laws of the country murder was compounded for by a fine, a rape for a rape, and a robbery for a robbery. When it was proposed by the governor of Ireland to send a sheriff into the county of Fermanagh, the chieftain of that district said the sheriff should be welcome, but desired to know the price which was set upon his head, in order that if he should be killed he might know what fine to impose. Such was the deplorable state of the country at that time: but sir John Davis allowed that more had been done for the benefit, of Ireland during the reign of James 1st, than during the whole of the preceding four hundred years. Certainly, many of the causes indicated by sir John Davis and others, as contributing to the injury of Ireland at that time, had ceased to operate: but others had arisen of a different, though not less important character. The animosities of families, the irritation arising from confiscations, and other similar causes, were of a de scription which no legislative interference could reach. Time alone, the prevalence of a kind and paternal system of government, and the extension of education, were the remedies which must be chiefly relied upon. At a later period of the history of Ireland, he was willing to admit the impolicy of imposing commercial restrictions; an impolicy of which, he believed, we were even now reaping all the bitter fruits [Hear, hear!]. By those restrictions we had curtailed the capital of Ireland, and lessened her means of industry; and, paradoxical as it might appear, an increase of population had arisen from those effects. He wished to explain in what manner he conceived that increased population to have taken place. The consequence of the bad policy in imposing the commercial restrictions was, a deprivation to Ireland of a market for her produce, which made land so cheap, that the owners of it were enabled to employ any number of hands in cultivating it. They alloted small portions of it to individuals; and it became the more productive because all their labour was applied to those small portions. According the opinion of the most experienced agriculturists, the same quantity of land, so cultivated, would produce nearly three times the quantum of human subsistence (he meant potatoes, the staple food of the Irish peasant), which it would produce of any other kind of subsistence. Hence, the immediate means of supporting a family were more within the reach of the poorer classes of Ireland than of similar classes in this country. Whatever inquiries might be made into the condition of the Irish people, it would be material to ascertain their state as to the supply of food. He had attempted to prosecute that inquiry, and he confined his attempts to those districts which were disturbed, with a view to discover whether there was any connexion between that and the causes of the disturbance. He believed the poor of Ireland would be found to be in this condition. Almost all of them rented small farms, which they took from the farmer upon certain conditions. Their rent was partly paid by labour. Thus, if a man gave four guineas an acre for his farm, he worked for his landlord at 10d. a day: if he paid three guineas, he received 8d. That 10d., however, commanded a greater proportion of subsistence in the article of food which constituted the sole diet of the Irish peasant, than the same sum would produce in England. He was perfectly aware that the food of the poor in Ireland was inferior, and he sincerely wished that it were possible to find any means of giving him better, and a better place in which to enjoy it. Nothing would be more calculated to seduce them from idle and vicious habits, and to inspire a relish for domestic comforts.

He should now proceed to examine some of those causes which the right hon. baronet appeared to think still existed, and for which he also seemed to think remedies might be adopted. He could assure him that he felt the strongest disposition to employ any remedies which might be suggested, and which should appear capable of a really practical application. First, as to the appointment of sheriffs, on which a considerable stress had been laid by the right hon. baronet. He was perfectly ready to admit, that that was a point in which material and essential information might be introduced. The subject, however, had been fully and deliberately discussed in a select committee, which sat during last session for the purpose of inquiring into grand jury presentments. He held in his hand the evidence of that committee, and according to that evidence it appeared, that some persons saw many evils in the present mode of appointing the sheriffs, and others thought it the best that could be adopted. For himself, though he certainly thought the mode of appointing them might be improved, yet the practical evils of the existing one was not, in his opinion, so great as was imagined. The persons who were examined before that committee were many of them members of that House—lord Jocelyn, sir John Newport, sir Henry Parnell, the chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland, colonel Crosbie, and others. The evidence they gave established the existence of many evils, but it was not so conclusively against the present system of appointing sheriffs as might be imagined. It was generally stated that the evil was not one of the present day. It had long subsisted. But certainly he should be ashamed of himself if he felt any reluctance to change a practice merely because the acquiescence in it on the part of the government, of which he formed a part, might be involved in some degree of censure. It should be remembered, however, when they were drawing a distinction between the magistracy of Ireland and that of England, how great the difference was between the state of society in the two countries. With respect to the nomination of sheriffs, the ancient practice was different from the modern. The judges of the assize required from the outgoing sheriff the names of three persons who were thought most fit to serve the office. These names were afterwards examined by all the judges in the chancellor's chamber, and they selected from them a certain number according to the circumstances of the recommendation, &c. which they transmitted to the lord lieutenant, who thereupon issued his warrant for the appointment of such as he finally determined upon. That mode of electing them was certainly preferable to the present; and he had no hesitation in giving a pledge, on the part of the government of Ireland, that that system should henceforward be recurred to [Hear].

As to the general revision of the magistracy of Ireland, he had made every inquiry into the practicability of such a revision, but he apprehended it would be found impossible. In the first place, it was usual for the chancellor of Ireland to have a more arbitrary power in the dismissal of magistrates than was possessed in this country, where they were never dismissed but upon the sentence of a court of law, or for some gross irregularity of conduct, which rendered them totally unfit for the office. He was willing to admit that there were many persons placed in those situations who were not qualified for them, either by their property or rank in life. But then, he must again beg the House to remember the great difference in the manner in which society is constituted in Ireland. With respect, however, to the selections generally speaking, he did not recollect more than ten or twelve cases of recommendations taking place, and he believed they were all of them made from a conscientious impression of what was considered to be the best for the tranquillity and safety of the country. It might be true that there were persons now in the commission, who were put into it in 1798, on account of their zeal and loyalty to the government, but if the general revision were to apply to them, he did think it would be most unjust to deprive them of their places, without some better ground for such a proceeding. How, in fact, was the lord lieutenant to judge what persons were fit but from recommendations? And what a tremendous power it would be giving to leave him to decide what precise degree of character was necessary in order to qualify a man to be a magistrate. What criterion could be adopted for retaining him in office after he had once acquired possession? Would you take the criterion of property? That would be a most fallible one. However plausible or popular the idea might be of effecting what was called a general revision of the magistracy, he was convinced it would be productive of great injustice. That, however, was his opinion, and he knew it was the opinion also of the person at the head of the department which was most concerned.

He now came to that single point, as affecting the grievances of Ireland, in which it was supposed the government was deeply implicated; and he could assure the right hon. baronet, from whatever sources he had derived his information, it was most erroneous. Those societies which he had alluded to, did not exist, generally speaking, in those counties which were disturbed, and he had never heard them accused as being any part of the causes which produced the present condition of Ireland. But, it was asked, why do you not prevent the celebration of particular days and events? He should like to know how the right hon. baronet himself would do it. He must be aware that it would be impossible to exercise any effectual control. There were a thousand ways in which the law might be eluded. They might prevent any particular body of persons assembling, who were united for specific purposes, and bound together by illegal oaths: but it was impossible to counteract those celebrations of particular occasions to which the right hon. baronet had alluded. He was aware that he (Mr. Peel) had been subjected to many imputations, as if he had encouraged the formation and growth of those societies. He could only say, that for the greater part of those imputations he had the most profound contempt; but if the right hon. baronet believed, for a moment, that any such encouragment was afforded, directly or indirectly, he could only entreat him to dismiss it from his mind, for he was perfectly wrong. He held in his hand proofs to the contrary; proofs, that the government had exerted itself to repress the tumults arising from those causes, and to diminish the operation of the causes themselves. It must be perfectly notorious to every one, that where opposite parties existed, where personal animosities ran high, offence might be conveyed on either side in a thousand different ways, which no legislative interference could reach. But so far as the government could exercise any influence, he would venture to say that it had never neglected the opportunity. It might be easily imagined, for instance, that much inflammation and angry feeling would be excited by playing what were called party tunes. Now, how could that be prevented by law? How could you define the particular sort of tune which could be considered as party tunes, and therefore not to be played? But even in that respect, the government had been careful to do all that lay in its power. By a general order issued on the 24th of June, 1814, a kind of circular letter, addressed to the brigade majors of the yeomanry, the lord lieutenant called their attention to a former circular letter of a similar description, issued in 1810, and which he desired should be considered as still in force. The object of that letter was, to prevent any assemblages of the yeomanry, and to forbid them from wearing their military clothes, or carrying their arms, except when on duty. It further stated, that there were some particular tunes which gave offence when played, and it was requested they might be avoided as much as possible. That was the only kind of influence which could be beneficially exerted in such cases, and that influence, it would be found, had never been neglected by the government.

Among the other causes which had unquestionably contributed to produce the present disturbances and outrages in Ireland, might be reckoned the press of that country. He was far from meaning to say that the benefits which resulted from a free press, did not greatly, if not wholly overbalance the evils of its abuse. He would even venture to assert, that what might be called the extreme licentiousness of the press, in a former period of our history, mainly assisted in securing to us invaluable privileges. But what could be said in favour of a press which never sought to enlighten the public mind—which never aimed at the dissemination of truth—which never endeavoured to correct the morals, or improve the happiness of the people? On the contrary, the most studious efforts were made to keep alive and foment discord, and the malignant influence of the worst passions of our nature. Their only object was, to make it be believed, that the very sources of jus- tice were corrupted, that the verdicts of juries were always venal, and the conduct of magistrates always base. By those insinuations, industriously and perseveringly spread, many persons were driven into the commission of some paltry offence, when, in his opinion, they were infinitely less guilty in a moral point of view than those vile and degraded beings by whom they were instigated. The most infamous falsehoods and calumnies were uttered against magistrates thus pointing them out to the vengeance of those misguided men whose passions were easily worked upon. The consequence of such general and indiscriminate abuse as defiled the public press of Ireland, involving every person whose station, rank, or conduct rendered them at all public, was, that no one dreaded censure, and the force of public opinion, therefore, that great auxiliary to a free press was utterly destroyed. The House could not form any idea of the licentiousness to which he alluded, by reflecting upon what was called licentiousness in this country. As a specimen, he would read to them a passage from a work which was too contemptible to notice, except as such an illustration: he meant the Irish Magazine. They would see the nature of the poison which was disseminated. Until the present year it had had a wide circulation among the lower orders in Ireland, and they would judge the sort of influence which its infamous and detestable falsehoods were calculated to have upon that class of people. As a proof of the motive for circulating it, he would state, that it was generally distributed gratis, or at least at a price so very much below what the mere cost of printing must be, that it was evident profit was not considered, but only the accomplishment of the most pernicious and villainous purposes. In an article, purporting to be upon the persecution of the Protestants in France it said, " if the pious Britons are so indignant, as by their cant they pretend to be, why do they not exhibit some portion of their humanity in behalf of the ceaseless massacres of the Irish Catholics? It may be asserted in the face of all Europe, that more Irish Catholics have been murdered since the month of May, 1814, than ever suffered in, France during the [most bloody persecutions, either before or after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes." That specimen, be apprehended, would be sufficient to show to what kind of abuse and: licen- tiousness the press of Ireland was perverted.

He would now advert to one other topic which be conceived ought to be considered as a part of the causes which had tended to place Ireland in her present condition. He alluded to the actual state of the elective franchises. The manner in which they were exercised by the Catholic freeholders was most injurious. It was far from his intention to urge any thing against the wisdom or policy of the act of 1793, by which those franchises were extended to the Catholics. He did not think that either the dangers or the benefits which were predicted at that period had been realized; but at the same time he did not think that it had invested the Catholic democracy with any substantial power or advantage. The real advantage which had been derived was not by those who possessed the freehold, but those who possessed the freeholder. In registering the freehold property, he had been told the greatest abuses existed. Perjury was frequently committed. Leases were made out merely for the occasion, and persons swore to the possession of property which they never saw. If it were asked, why such persons were not proceeded against, the answer would be, that if they were committed, they would be immediately bailed out, and never found afterwards. He certainly thought, therefore, that the manner in which the elective franchise was now exercised, required some legislative regulation.

With respect to Catholic emancipation, he would not say more than that the opinions which he had formerly entertained and expressed on that subject, had been confirmed by every observation which he had since been enabled to make, and that he was persuaded no advantage would result to Ireland from its adoption. He was persuaded that such a measure would by no means operate beneficially on the existing state of things in that country. If he were asked to declare from what measure he imagined the greatest benefit to Ireland would accrue, he would say, without hesitation, that any measure calculated to induce, or if that were not sufficient, to compel those individuals to reside in Ireland who now spent the money which they derived from that country elsewhere, would be more immediately felt in its advantageous operation than any other proposition which could be made by any party. He firmly believed that Ireland was precisely in that state in which the benefits of residence on the part of her gentry would be most sensibly felt. The opinion of the lower orders of the Irish, with respect to their government, was too loose and undefined. It was a machine too large for their comprehension; it was a machine too distant for effective operation, and the influence of resident landlords would do more to prevent disturbances, and to effect all the legitimate objects of a wise government, than could be accomplished in any other manner whatever. In support of this opinion he would appeal to all those who had been in those parts of Ireland in which the gentry did reside, to testify the inestimable advantages which arose from the practice.

The right hon. baronet had somewhat misunderstood his sentiments on the subject of education in Ireland. He had never asserted that from a more general system of education any immediate advantages were to be expected. He had never asserted that education was the only way by which the people of Ireland could be rendered tranquil and industrious. He had always said that the only mode by which that people, as well as any other people, could be rendered industrious was, by adopting such measures as would make it their interest to be so. But while he would encourage all those measures which were calculated to produce so excellent an effect on the existing generation, he would not neglect to afford that general instruction from which so much future good was to be justly anticipated. It was the peculiar duty of a government that felt the inconveniences that arose from the ignorance of the present generation, to sow the seeds of knowledge in the generation that was to succeed. It was because he felt strongly the many excellent qualities of the Irish character, it was because he saw even in the midst of the extravagancies and errors which were to be deplored, qualities of the highest description—capacity for great exertion, and aptitude for great virtue—that he entertained on this subject an anxiety which he could not describe. The attachment to that country, which the many excellent qualities of its inhabitants had created in him, would long survive any political connexion that he might have with it—[Hear, hear!]. He would trouble the House no further, but would conclude by moving the following amendment to the motion of the right hon. baronet:—

" That an humble address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, expressing our deep regret that the internal state of Ireland in time of peace renders it necessary to maintain a large military force in that country for the present year, for the purpose of assisting in the execution of the law, and in the preservation of public tranquillity; and entreating that his royal highness will be graciously pleased to direct, that there be laid before this House, a statement of the nature and extent of the disturbances which have recently prevailed in Ireland, and the measures which have been adopted by the government of that country in consequence thereof."

began by expressing his warmest gratitude to his right hon. friend, for calling the attention of the House to this most important subject, and for the peculiarly able manner in which he had supported the motion. The state of Ireland was indeed a question in which Great Britain must feel a direct and immediate interest, and therefore it claimed, as no doubt it would receive the fullest consideration in that House. To illustrate that interest, and enforce that claim, he could not think it necessary to add much to the impressive speech of his right hon. friend. For that speech presented the most valuable variety of local, political, and constitutional knowledge. It was indeed so distinguished for accuracy of information, that he should have to occupy the attention of the House but for a short time. He particularly applauded his right hon. friend's speech in consequence of its complete freedom from any alloy of party spirit. The question was indeed too important to be sunk into any mixture with party or faction. Last year the insurrec-act was passed, and though he was not present, he had no hesitation in saying, that if he had been so, he would have supported the measure, although it did go the length of suspending the enjoyment of the constitution during the period in which it remained in force. In the year 1796, and on other occasions, similar acts had been passed, but they were seldom enforced. It was now two months, however, since the right hon. gentleman who was the author of this measure last session, had mentioned to the House the necessity of carrying it into execution. The county of Tipperary, and that of West Meath, were disturbed, and the country was in such a state as to render a military force of 25,000 men necessary for suppressing the spirit of revolt and tumult. Soon afterwards two other counties were added to this mass of confusion and disorder, and now there were no fewer than six declared in a state of disturbance. The military force was increased, but the evils were not diminished; tumult and disorder were rather augmented than suppressed; and he would tell the right hon. gentleman, that if matters did not soon change, 40,000 men would be found insufficient to perform the duty for which 25,000 were now deemed adequate. This was such an alarming state of things, that it could receive no aggravation from fancy—could admit of no additional colouring from fear or apprehension. It pressed upon the House with a weight of interest which no consideration could increase. The natives of Ireland were celebrated for their gratitude for benefits conferred—their fine and ardent feelings were almost proverbial—nor could slight injuries rouse them to revenge. The present deplorable state of that country showed, therefore, indisputably, that some intrinsic vice was in the government, which must be removed before tranquillity was restored.

He did not find that the right hon. gentleman professed to apply any remedies to those evils which he admitted to exist; and, in truth, if certain doctrines which he had advanced were to be considered as the sort of remedy which the right hon. gentleman might feel disposed to apply, he most cordially and most sincerely thanked him that he had abstained from the application. The two remedies of the right hon. gentleman, if he might venture to call them such, were referable, first to absentees, and secondly to forty shilling freeholders. With respect to the absentees, he wished with all his heart they were fewer; he wished for the sake of Ireland, that she possessed a more numerous resident gentry. But how was that to be accomplished? The right hon. gentleman had suggested no means but seemed to trust merely to the powers of persuasion. He did not wish to underrate the right hon. gentleman's eloquence, though he was certainly afraid it would not be found an instrument sufficiently powerful to induce the gentry of Ireland to reside on their estates. If the right hon. gentleman meant to go further than persuasion—if he contemplated the idea of legislative interference—then he would say to him, repeal the Union, send back again to Ireland her parliament, restore that portion of rank and property and influence which she possessed before, and which had been drawn from her by the inevitable operation of that measure. If the right hon. gentleman was prepared to go so far, then, indeed, he would admit that his observations were a proper forerunner of his intentions; but, otherwise, situated as Ireland now was, the question of absentees was one which no wise statesman would venture to touch. As to any connexion that might be supposed to subsist between the present disturbances in Ireland, and the effects produced by absentee gentry, he would venture to say that in those districts where outrage was most prevalent, the grievance of the absentees was least, felt.

The next topic to which he wished to refer, was that of the forty shilling franchises. He was not quite sure whether he accurately comprehended what fell from the right hon. gentleman, and he was most anxious to avoid any thing which might be construed into misrepresentation. The right hon. gentleman would set him right, if he erred; but he understood him to speak of the act of 1793, as that act by which the elective franchise was originally granted.

rose to explain. He said he mentioned the act of 1798, not as having originally granted the elective franchise, but as having extended its privileges to the Catholics.

continued. The act of 1793, then, was alluded to by the right hon. gentleman, merely as having extended those privileges which had previously been enjoyed by the Protestants of Ireland, to the Catholics of Ireland. Taking the argument upon that ground, he was prepared to contend, that if that act were repealed, it would be disfranchising the Catholics. He would say further, that if the right hon. gentleman had studiously contrived a firebrand calculated to precipitate into immediate explosion the combustibles now scattered all over Ireland—if he had laboured night and day to discover what means were most likely to consummate the mischief—be could not have hit upon a more certain one than to propose to disfranchise the Irish Catholics.

rose to explain. He said he was sorry to interrupt the right hon. and learned gentleman again, but he was tempted to avail himself of his candid offer, and that desire which he had mani- fested not to misinterpret him. In speaking of the act of 1793, he expressly said that he did not complain of it, because it extended the elective franchise to the Catholics. What he complained of was, the great abuses to which that act had been perverted. The way in which the Catholic freeholders acquired their right, presented opportunities for the grossest perjury. It had never entered into his contemplation to withdraw those franchises, but he lamented the way in which those fictitious franchises were created.

said, he was most happy at being set right, though he believed he had erred in common with a great number of persons as to what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman. He should now proceed to the consideration of the question generally, and he must say, it struck him as somewhat extraordinary, that the government did not seem prepared to propose any specific remedies for the many evils, the existence of which no one denied. He would except, indeed, what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman upon the nomination of the sheriffs. For that he was entitled to much approbation, for he was sure it would be productive of infinite good to Ireland; but if he imagined it was calculated, alone, to allay the ferments that now existed, he had much mistaken the real influence and operation of that system. The only thing upon which the right hon. gentleman seemed to rely as an effectual method of remedying the grievances felt in Ireland, was the diffusion of education; and he hoped he should not be considered as undervaluing the importance of education in what he was about to say. The most beneficial effect of education, in his opinion, was, that it brought the lower and the higher classes into connexion by acts of beneficence and kindness. But if, by education, the right hon. gentleman meant merely that the Irish should be instructed in reading, writing, and accounts, he really believed it would be found that the people of Ireland were no more deficient in those things than the people of this country. Nay, if a distinction were taken between the two countries, he believed it would be in favour of Ireland. In those public bodies of men, where the inhabitants of the two countries were brought together, as the army, for instance, he would venture to say that the number of Irishmen who could read and write, was greater in proportion, than the number of Englishmen.

But really, to talk of carrying on the education of a people, by teaching them to read and write merely, was a gross and childish misapplication of the word. The education of a people must grow out of the government of the country [Hear, hear!]. It must spring from that paternal care, and from that equal protection of the laws which insensibly formed the habits of the citizen to a peaceable and correct demeanor. What was it that made every man in England interested in the preservation of public order, tranquillity, and obedience to the laws? Because every man in England knew that the law was his friend and his protector: he cherished it as his birthright, and he regarded those who administered it as labouring with himself for the general good of the commonwealth. Give that education to Ireland, and Ireland would receive it as a boon. Teach the people how to respect the laws, and they would be taught how to be happy [Hear, hear!] But where was the utility of teaching them reading and figures.—To count property which they did not possess, and to read about that liberty which they did not enjoy? [Hear, hear!].

With respect to the motion bf his right hon. friend, he protested he could not comprehend why it should be frittered down in the way which was proposed by the amendment. What reasons had been urged to show the probability that less than 25,000 men would be wanted for Ireland next year? And if 25,000 men were then wanted, why not forty, nay, a hundred thousand, hereafter? The evils which afflicted Ireland, whatever they were, would not remain stationary. They mast be put down, or they would progressively increase. If then, it was intended to maintain a force of 25,000 men permanently in Ireland; and if the insurrection act was to be continued; if the people of that country were to be subjected to domiciliary visits in the night, to be liable to be imprisoned, and even transported, not by the verdict of a jury, but by summary commitment; if all these terrible miseries were to be inflicted by the aid of the bayonet, he would say that that House would neglect—would grossly abandon—its duty if they refused to inquire why such things were necessary, and how they might be avoided [Hear!]. Where was the use of knowing the extent of the mischief, if they were to be precluded from examining into the causes?

The reason why it was wished to have information upon the one was, that they might afterwards inquire into the other. He would willingly admit that he must be a bold man who would pretend to affirm that he knew what remedies would effectually remove the evils now existing; but he would be a much bolder man who should presume to leave the country under the hopeless curse of those measures which had so long afflicted and degraded it [Hear!]. Exile and death were not the instruments of government; but the miserable expedients which showed the absence of all government [Hear!]. The sources of public authority were dried up; and that House ought to rescue the people of Ireland from such a desperate state of outlawry and degradation [Hear, hear!]. The state of Ireland was a sort of gordian knot which they could not untie, and refused the aid of parliament, whose duty it was to interpose in behalf of a suffering people. His right hon. friend had prudently abstained from discussing the question of Catholic emancipation, and he would follow his example; but at the same time, when they were called upon to decide so important a subject as the present, he would not be deterred by the fear of having one vote less, or the hope of one vote more, from expressing his opinion. He would not say, that Catholic emancipation was a charm which would allay every discontent and remove every grievance; but he would say, that it was a sine quâ non. and that without it no other system of measures could be entirely prosperous.

He would now take the liberty of pointing out a few of those causes which he conceived, had contributed to place Ireland in her present unfortunate condition. He declared that he felt no personal animosities towards any member of the Irish government; on the contrary, for the lord-lieutenant, and for his noble friend at the head of the law department, he entertained the highest respect. In the first place, it was but too well known that there were a number of discontented agitators in that country, who sought every means of disturbing its tranquillity. But it was equally true,. that there was a great pro portion of the Catholic population as different in their principles and conduct from those unprincipled agitators as if they were not of the same class. Those persons cherished legitimate and honourable objects of ambition, and earnestly desired to be admitted within the pale of the constitution: but he would put it to the candour and sincerity of the right hon. gentleman, whether the government of Ireland had ever attempted to separate the sound from the unsound portion of the Catholic body? He could not say that such an attempt had ever been made; and that, he firmly believed, was one cause of the present infuriated and inflamed state of the country [Hear, hear!].

The state of the press in Ireland had been referred to, and no man could deny that it was most licentious, having been made the instrument of wild demagogues to advance their own projects of ambition. But was this all? Had it not been also most unjustifiably employed on the other side? Had not those papers, which were paid highly for the insertion of government proclamations, been made the vehicles of the most scandalous, malignant, and indiscriminate libels upon the whole Catholic body? [Hear, hear!]. Was this dealing fairly by the people of Ireland, distracted by political and religious differences? He did not accuse the government of encouraging these disgraceful practices, but he complained that it had not interfered to control them. The Orange societies were another source of the present evils, and in speaking of them the right hon. gentleman, without his usual candour, had perverted, in his absence, the argument of his right hon. friend. The objection to them was, not that they celebrated anniversaries, or that they played particular tunes, but that they were societies exclusively Protestant, bound by an illegal oath to continue their allegiance only so long as the King supported what they termed a Protestant constitution. What steps would not the right hon. gentleman have thought it right to take, had Catholics been so illegally united for the purpose of supporting only a Catholic sovereign? It was no answer to state that the Orange societies would be punished when their acts Were illegal, for their very constitution was a breach of the law, for which they were amenable. It might be true, that the evil was less among the higher classes; but among the lower these associations of Protestants degenerated into the most brutal and offensive assertion of superiority over the whole Catholic body. Another point likewise deserved notice. It would not be denied, that of all people the Irish were most subject to the influence of their priesthood, and the first act of a prudent government would have been to establish with that priesthood an amicable connexion; yet no attempt of the kind had been made; on the contrary, in the only instance that had occurred, they had given, as it were, designed offence to that very respectable body. A priest of the county of Limerick had been instrumental in quelling a disturbance, for which a letter of, thanks from the right hon. gentleman was sent to him; but, before it could reach his hands, it was published in the newspapers, and this reverend gentleman was thus held up to the suspicion of all his fraternity and his flock as a person aiding the tyrannical purposes of government. There were many important differences between the present and former disturbances. From the highest authority it had been stated, that within the last fifty years the commerce of Ireland had doubled, her agricultural produce had increased fourfold, and her population had trebled. Thus it appeared that she was capable of becoming the dangerous rival, or the powerful friend of England: a gigantic form was rising as the side of Great Britain, and the question now was, whether it should be converted into a friend or an enemy. Sixteen years had elapsed since the union had professed to give to Ireland the benefits of the British constitution; yet now that constitution was to be suspended, and the natives of that country were to be deprived of its benefits. What would be thought of a proposition of the like kind with respect to small? And yet, upon the whole of Ireland this calamity was to be inflicted almost without repugnance. Such a state of things—such gross injustice and inequality—could not be endured with patience; and the longer the system was pursued, the greater would be the evil to be remedied. It was erroneous, too, in point of expenditure. The whole military force must be paid by this country, for Ireland could not produce any revenue, in consequence of the miscalculation at the time of the union as to the contribution she was to provide. Her debt, since the year 1800, had increased fourfold, no part of which was expended in the country, as was the case in England. On the whole view of the case, the only advice he would take upon himself to give ministers was, that they should retrace as exactly as possible the steps they had pursued in the government of Ireland; instead of esta- blushing themselves on the narrow, odious principle of Protestant exclusion, which kept alive the spirit of dissension, he earnestly recommended them to adopt measures calculated to secure the union and happiness of all classes.

in explanation, denied that his letter of thanks to the Catholic priest had been published with his knowledge or consent.

said, that highly as he thought of the talents of the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, it would, he was sure, require even more than his ingenuity to convince the House, that an amendment which called for full information respecting the various disturbances and outrages which unhappily subsisted in Ireland, and also respecting the measures which had been adopted by government for their suppression, was, in fact, a refusal of information. It must be obvious, upon an examination of the original motion, and of the amendment, that all the information that was required by the one would be obtained by the other; the only difference between them was, that the amendment did not propose to state the measures which ought to be adopted, before the information was obtained, a mode of proceeding equally unprecedented and absurd. He could not argue this as a mere question of debate; he would admit that the right hon. baronet, who had brought forward the motion, had, in enumerating the evils by which Ireland was afflicted, truly and candidly stated that the causes of many of them were not of recent origin, but had existed for centuries, and some of them even before the introduction of English law into Ireland; but yet the right hon. and learned gentleman had argued as if all those evils had grown out of the conduct of the recent administrations of that country: nay, he had so said. The House, he was sure, would feel no difficulty in deciding upon the justice and the candour of the two statements. He confessed that he should feel considerable difficulty in deciding upon the vote which he should give upon this question, if he thought that its decision in any degree involved that of the Catholic question, which the right hon. baronet had so properly endeavoured to keep out of the present discussion. Upon that question, it was well known that he differed, and had always differed from his right hon. friend (Mr. Peel); but he differed not more from his right hon. friend upon that ques- tion than he did from those who thought that the granting of the claims of the Catholics would operate as an immediate and universal panacea for the cure of all the evils which afflicted Ireland; many of which, as had been already stated, arose from causes that existed before the difference of religion existed; for he might say that it did exist between the two countries.

The right hon. baronet had, in his opinion, done most wisely in endeavouring to separate the discussion of the Catholic question from that now before the House, because this was the first session in which that important subject would come before parliament upon a petition, offering such concessions as might satisfy the minds of the Protestants, without trenching upon the rights or infringing any of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church. One petition had already been presented by an hon. baronet, and another would, he understood, be presented in a few days by the member for Dublin, founded upon the principles which he had described. As a friend to the claims of the Catholics, he protested against involving that great question with the present motion, and he could not help expressing his surprise that the right hon. and learned gentleman should have attempted to combine them [Hear, hear! from the opposition]. He would admit that the consideration of the claims necessarily mingled with any view of the state of Ireland; but he deprecated any" decision of the House on such a motion as that of this night, being treated now, or referred to hereafter, as a decision on those claims. The right hon. and learned gentleman, after declaring that he was not himself prepared to offer any remedy that would remove the evils which were on all hands admitted to exist, had accused his right hon. friend, the chief secretary of Ireland, for not pointing out at once all the measures which the government were prepared to recommend for the immediate restoration of tranquillity in that country. He admitted, indeed, that his right hon. friend, with respect to one of the grievances which had been mentioned, namely, the mode of appointing sheriffs, had pledged himself that the Irish government would revert to the ancient manner of nomination. The right hon. baronet who spoke first, had represented the existing mode as an evil of the greatest magnitude, as one which " poisoned justice in the source," and the same language had been used respecting it in another place; yet, when his right hon. friend proposed to remedy it, the right hon. and learned gentleman treated it as trifling, and had tauntingly asked, if a reformation in the mode of nominating sheriffs would remove all the grievances of Ireland? No man had insinuated that it would.

Upon the subject of grand juries the right hon. baronet had forborne to enlarge, because he knew that there was but one feeling in the House upon it. It was but fair to state, that this was one of the subjects that had occupied the earnest attention of many members of the government: if no measure had been brought forward, it was out of respect to the chairman of the committee, to whom that subject had been referred by the House, and from a conviction that it could not be undertaken with so much propriety, or with so great a chance of success, as under the sanction of that committee. His own opinions upon the grand jury system were known: to the part which he and his right hon. friend had taken in the discussions upon it, the right hon. baronet could bear testimony; he had himself been examined before the committee last year, and he should now repeat what he had before stated, that though the system was liable to abuse, and had been greatly abused, yet it was impossible to conceive one founded on better principles, and more calculated to produce beneficial effects, if acted upon according to its true spirit. He trusted that there was a determination not to abandon the question, until the practice was reformed, and that spirit restored. He had no doubt that the separation of the criminal and civil business which the committee above stairs appeared disposed to recommend, would be the most efficient reform that could be adopted at this time; and if the bill of an hon. and learned gentleman opposite (Mr. Horner) respecting proceedings on indictments by grand juries, were made the law of the land, as he had no doubt it ought to be, such a distribution of the business at assizes would become absolutely necessary.

The right hon. and learned gentleman had stated, that the only measure which his right hon. friend (Mr. Peel) had suggested was that of education, and had with respect to it also tauntingly asked, "What, do you think that teaching the Irish peasant to read and to count will alleviate all the evils under which he labours? Do you think that teaching him to read of liberty which he cannot enjoy, and to count property which he cannot possess, will remove all the grounds of his complaint?" This was language which he should not have expected from the right hon. and learned gentleman. This was not the manner in which the efforts of the government, or the benevolent views of parliament, ought to be treated. He felt the sincerest admiration of the talents and eloquence of the right hon. and learned gentleman, but he confessed he was surprised to hear such sentiments upon the subject of education from, the member for the university of Dublin. What were his plans for giving to the Irish peasant more property? Or what is the liberty, what the personal freedom which is desired, and has been denied? It did not become him to describe the Irish peasant as oppressed, because he was in that situation in which the great majority of the population of all countries must be always placed; or was the benefit of instruction to be withheld from all but those who were possessed of property or qualified for political power? Before the right hon. and learned gentleman took upon himself to rebuke the government, and to undervalue the efforts which had been made by parliament to promote the interests of Ireland, he ought to have come sometimes to that House upon some ordinary occasions, and not have confined his attendance to great questions only, like the present. If ha had been in his place last session, he would have heard proposed a grant for a most valuable institution in Ireland, the object of which was to instruct schoolmasters, who were to be employed in spreading the benefits of education throughout that country, and to circulate books of a very different description indeed from those poisonous publications to which his right hon. friend had alluded; and to which the right hon. and learned gentleman had alluded too. In a conversation which he (Mr. Fitzgerald) had had with the leading members of one of those institutions, he had told them, that if they could lay before the government a case that would justify the expenditure even of a much larger sum of money than had been granted, or would point out how" it could be employed usefully, he would willingly state their case to that House; and he knew that he should not reckon in vain upon its sympathy or its liberality. The institution he referred to, was composed of persons of all religious persuasions; this he deemed essential: any attempt at conversion, any proselyting spirit, would be justly suspected and opposed. Those who knew the earnestness with which the poorest peasant in Ireland sought instruction for his child, would anticipate, if no religious spirit mixed with it, the same results which he did. The right hon. and learned gentleman must know that among his own constituents there were many who had risen from the lowest ranks of the people, and that solely by the exertion of native talent and ambition, which was the peculiar characteristic of the Irish. He could himself mention instances of it which were as extraordinary as they were interesting.

But to return to the prospects of education which some of these societies held out: the leading members, and, he believed, the majority of the one he spoke of first, were Catholics, and Dissenters from the established Church. Their plans were in operation in every part of Ireland, and would, he trusted, lay the foundation of more solid benefits to the people of that country than the mere teaching them reading and writing. Could, then, the right hon. and learned member estimate so meanly the moral advantages which would result from instructing the poor? There was another society, for which a large grant had this year been made by parliament, which, though not likely to produce such extensively beneficial effects, as the one to which he had just alluded, was highly deserving of support. One of these institutions had already and rapidly spread its establishments. The House would not think so lightly of their labours when he told them, that in the last year, in one province of Ireland, one hundred and fifty additional schools had been formed The number of children educated at them, he would not, on memory, now venture to state; but he had himself attended and inspected some of the establishments, and he augured more from them, than from any merely political boon which could be offered to the people.

There were many other subjects which the right hon. and learned gentleman had touched upon in the course of his speech, which he should feel no difficulty in giving an opinion upon, though he was not prepared to offer any measure to the House upon them. They were indeed too complicated and too important, to be brought forward without due consideration. Upon the subject of tythes, he felt in common with every one who had spoken upon the subject, that it was one of a most difficult and delicate nature. There never had been a motion made in that House for a committee to investigate the system of tithes that he had not supported; but he confessed, at the same time, that he had never seen any plan proposed that, in his opinion, gave sufficient compensation or security for the property which it proposed to take away. The government, he was sure, had no desire to prevent investigation upon the subject; but neither his right hon. friend, nor himself, had a distinct plan to propose, and this was a question to which he thought no one ought to call the attention of the House, unless they had some definite measure to offer. At least no one on the part of the government of Ireland could do it. He would be the first, however, to go into a committee with the right hon. and learned gentleman on the subject of tithes. And. if the right hon. and learned gentleman would do somewhat more than give the House the pleasure of an eloquent and annual speech, and attend such a committee, he would be entitled to come forward in the next session, and accuse the government of the country, if he found its members shrinking either from the labour or responsibility of investigation [Hear, hear!]. But it was easy to condemn,—had the right hon. and learned gentleman afforded us any suggestions of his own? As a statesman and a lawyer he knew the danger and difficulty of rashly attempting a commutation which affected the whole property of the church in the United Kingdom.

With respect to the population of Ireland, his right hon. friend who had spoken second in the debate, had said so much, and so eloquently, that he should occupy very little of the attention of the House upon that part of the question. But when he was asked in that House, what had been done to relieve, Ireland and to ameliorate her condition, he could not avoid shortly adverting to what had been done, and done recently, with that object. The right hon. baronet opposite (sir J. Newport) could inform the right hon. and learned gentleman what had been done to promote her agricultural interests, and the beneficial consequences that had resulted. Did he not know, that last year one of the great arguments, and, he believed, one of the most successful, in favour of the corn bill was, the benefit that it was likely to confer upon Ireland, by affording encouragement to her industry, and a market for her produce? On similar grounds the bill imposing so high a duty on foreign butter had been introduced and supported. In every one of the discussions on agricultural questions, the interests of Ireland had been a main and important feature of the considerations of parliament. It was idle to say that these things had not been done for the people. They had been done for the country [Hear, hear!]. The people would have their share of the benefit.—If you serve and advance the country, you advance them also [Hear!]. You encourage their industry and you protect it [Hear!]. If the right hon. and learned gentleman had been in his place only last night, he would have seen that the motion, respecting the transit duty on foreign linens, a motion supported, he would admit, upon no insufficient grounds, if separately viewed, and the success of which was intimately connected with both parts of Great Britain, was yet negatived on the simple ground of the injurious effect that the repeal would have on the numerous and manufacturing population of the province of Ulster [Hear, hear!]. Those who supported the interests of Ireland had not the satisfaction of counting the right hon. and learned gentleman's vote in their majority on that occasion. He repeated, no man was warranted in saying that the interests of Ireland were neglected either by the government or by the House of Commons. The bill introduced by the right hon. baronet opposite, in which an hon. and learned relative of his, had shared, respecting the rights of landlords and tenants was calculated to be productive of great benefits, and still more to the tenants than to the proprietors of the soil. He had always considered that one of the greatest evils in the situation of the Irish peasantry grew out of their common tenancy, out of that system which made the inhabitants of whole villages partners in the same lease. The landlord could not be expected to give a separate lease, "and separate possession to every individual tenant, where the expense of ejectment was so heavy, as well as every other proceeding for asserting legal rights. It was obvious what a discouragement to industry and to improvement of every kind this system of occu- pation had created. The House might be satisfied that there was nothing could be done for the Irish peasantry half so good as to assure to them a separate and independent existence, to teach them the value of comfort, almost to increase their wants, to create for them domestic wants, he would say, and thus to prevent that multiplication of population and of poverty which was inseparable from the present habits of the people. It was as leading—indirectly he admitted—yet as leading to some of these results, that he approved of the bill which was then in progress through the House.

If he were not occupying too much of the time of the House, he would advert to one or two points upon which he felt greatly interested. There was one circumstance which had frequently struck him as a grievance pressing upon the lower classes of the farmers in Ireland, and that was the difficulty which they experienced in recovering the debts due to them. By an act passed in 1796, a power was given to the assistant barristers to try by civil bill, cases of debt to the amount of 20l. Great advantages had resulted from it.—Nothing fell more severely upon the lower orders of farmers than the difficulty of thus obtaining justice, the expenses of which before the superior tribunals, were beyond their reach. There could not be a stronger proof of this, than that the number of actions brought amounted to above 30,000, and that the number tried did not exceed 800: the great expense deterred people from prosecuting them. The expense of prosecuting a suit before the assistant barrister did not exceed a few shillings, and he thought it would be a most material benefit conferred upon the people of Ireland, to extend the jurisdiction of the assistant barrister from cases of 20l. to 50l.; he certainly should be happy to co-operate in any measure for that purpose. Perhaps he might be told that we ought to wait until the commission now inquiring in Ireland had made a report to the House of Commons, for this subject doubtless would not be passed over by them. He was not prepared to say we should not wait; but it was hardly to be conceived how great would be the benefit of the regulation which had been suggested to him from innumerable quarters. Against it he had never heard but one objection, namely, the prejudice that it would do to the rights of the officers in the superior courts. With respect to any legitimate rights of theirs, parliament would, he was sure, do as it thought most just: yet, however, he trusted, no other right set up would stand in the way, and the legislature would not allow the interests of individuals to interfere, if relief could be extended to the poor and the wronged.

Two other points he had almost forgotten. This might not be an improper time to state them. There was a tax which pressed upon the lower order of people in Ireland, called the house duty: It bore no similitude to the house duty in England but in name. In England it was an assessment on value; in Ireland it attached only upon houses that were so mean and wretched, that they contributed in no other shape: it was paid exclusively by the most indigent of the people. No little difficulty arose in collecting it; and sometimes, he regretted to say, in the remote and wild parts of the island, the collectors of taxes were unable without, more than civil assistance, to bring it in. He had already (he believed two years since) introduced a bill which relieved the lowest and wretchedest class from the payment of this duty, but it still fell on all who paid an annual rent of ten pounds, and he trusted to the concurrence of the House when he proposed to repeal the tax altogether.

Another relief which he wished to extend was, to take off the hearth duty; it would be well to exempt from it any house not having more than three hearths. This would embrace all the lower orders, and he was sure the House would feel pleasure in extending this relief to them. And then, there was not a direct tax to the state, to which the Irish peasant would be subjected, He perceived that there were persons to whom these indulgences did not seem important. Perhaps they were not, but he was sure that the poor peasant would consider them of importance [Hear, hear!]; and at all events, the right hon. and learned gentleman would, he trusted, see from this statement that, there was every disposition on the part of the government to conciliate the people, and to relieve them from pressure [Hear, hear!]. He was sure these boons would be accepted, gratefully.

Another subject had been touched upon by a right hon. baronet, on which he would say but one word. He expressed in his speech great and just disapprobation of the remission of the fines imposed upon some counties for illicit distillation, because the amount of those fines was so great, that they could not be collected. Without entering into the principle of that law, nothing, as the right hon. baronet had truly stated, could be more monstrous than to make the magnitude of the guilt a plea for impunity. He had heard that that subject was likely to be brought before the House in the present session by some of the representatives of the north counties. He knew he should have the co-operation of the right hon. baronet to put down a mischief more destructive even to the moral habits of the people, than any that ever spread amongst them. It was not only the vices to which it led and the habitual violation of the laws, but industry withered wherever it set its foot. He would not now however anticipate those discussions.

He had endeavoured to follow the right hon. and learned gentleman through the leading points of his speech. He had accused his right hon. friend of wishing to enforce the residence of the landlords in Ireland, by a tax upon absentees. His right hon. friend had made no such proposition; he had adverted to the fact of the absentees, and lamented it as one of the evils which had led to the present distressed state of the country. And here he begged leave to say was one of the great differences between England and Ireland. If there was any one circumstance which more than another led to the superiority of England over Ireland, it was not superiority of education, but the residence of gentlemen of landed property among their tenants. Those opposite to him, he was sure, would do his right hon. friend and himself the justice to admit, that when an hon. member last year proposed to extend the property tax to Ireland, they had opposed it on the ground that it would discourage mainly the residence of the landlord in Ireland, because they considered the existence of that tax, in England and not in Ireland, as a strong inducement to the landed gentlemen of Ireland to reside there.

Upon these subjects he should now say no more.—Of a desire to foment or to keep up religious differences which had been imputed to others he knew nothing. He did know that there was in the government no such disposition. To those who formed it, it was very unjust to ascribe such a feeling, He sincerely believed that a man more impartial, more pure in his high office, more gracious in all his personal and public acts than the noble earl who presided over that government did not exist. Did any man suppose that his right hon. friend near him was capable of being swayed by any such partial considerations in the discharge of his public duty? For himself, he could declare, that he would never have continued still less with the cordiality and affection which he had done, a member of any administration which could so far forget what it owed to the sovereign and his people. He was sorry that the authority of the right hon. gentleman was lent to a charge so undeserved. He repeated that he should cheerfully vote for the amendment of his right hon. friend. If in so doing he thought he could be considered as pronouncing on the Catholic question, or indeed pronouncing upon any one of the great questions of policy which might affect his country, he should, however painful it might be, dissent from that amendment; if he thought it calculated to prevent inquiry, he should vote against it; but convinced as he was that it could produce full information on the present state of Ireland, and that it would not prevent any inquiry which might be hereafter called for, he hoped the majority of the House would give it their support.

said, he had no idea that the evils under which Ireland laboured were to be healed by the panacea of a single measure. The black catalogue of her calamities was too numerous to admit of one specific remedy. He spoke of the advantages which Ireland possessed in the fertility of its soil, the temperature of its climate, its numerous harbours, and the physical capacities of its people; and yet its history had been an almost continued series of revolutions and misfortunes, with the exception of that brilliant period when her parliament was rendered illustrious by the brilliant eloquence of the right hon. gentleman opposite, (Mr. Grattan). He regretted as one great cause of the evils under which Ireland laboured, the assiduity of a band of agitators, who worked upon the bigotry of the people, and also on their passions by a licentious eloquence. As a resident in that country, he had witnessed their baneful effects. In the county which he had the honour to represent, they had been but too successful in disjoining the Catholic and the Protestant. He had little hesitation in asserting, that little would be gained by what was called Catholic emancipation. A few Catholics might be conciliated, but the great majority would still remain under the influence of priests and agitators. He concluded with signifying that he should vote for the amendment.

expressed his high satisfaction with many of the points which had been so fully, candidly, and impartially discussed by the right hon. gentleman opposite. The question before the House was, he said, of vast importance, and it certainly was an object worthy of the British legislature to point out, in a calm, dispassionate manner, such means as would renovate the exhausted state of that country. The question now before the House was undoubtedly complicated in its nature; but still it appeared capable of being reduced under a few heads, to which he should shortly advert. The first was, the disunion of Catholics and Protestants; the second was, the financial distress of Ire land; 3dly, its commercial and agricultural distress; and 4thly, the existence of insurrection in various parts of the country. And, first, with regard to the disunion between Catholic and Protestant. Here the main object was, to obtain the identification of interests. In order to this, you must put an end to religious disunion, for no man could say, that where there was an exclusive religion, there could be an identification of interests. Secondly, with regard to the financial distress of Ireland, it was undeniable that it was almost beyond conception. Her expenditure had outshot her means, for she had a debt of one hundred and fifty millions, burthened with an interest of seven millions, while her revenue did not exceed six millions;, so that for the maintenance of her establishments she had absolutely nothing. Difficult as this situation was, he did not despair of its being relieved. He would suggest, therefore, such a financial arrangement between the two countries as would enable both to contribute to their mutual relief. Thirdly, with regard to the commercial distresses of Ireland, he acknowledged they were great, but he considered them as resulting from the sudden and violent change from war to peace. On that head, therefore, he was not inclined to despond. As the most effectual means of relieving those distresses, Ireland should receive a constant preference over foreigners in the British market. Thus it appeared to him that all the three branches of difficulty of which he had spoken might in time be removed. With respect to the agitation which existed in Ireland, by a good administration of the government it might unquestionably be cured. It was of a temporary, not of a permanent nature. It was disgraceful, but it was an eruption of the skin, and did not proceed from the blood. It ought to be put down by the law; and although in a free country an effervescence of that nature could not be so speedily subdued as in a despotic country, it would be more effectually so in the end. Above all, never let the government put itself in the wrong, but let it so act, that the very criminal who suffered under the infliction of the law should allow the excellence of the constitution under which he was punished. From the peace which had been concluded over the whole world he looked for great advantage to Ireland. Ireland had suffered much by the war. Her debt had increased to an enormous amount. Her taxes were heavier than she could bear. She had assisted Great Britain in carrying Europe through the chaos in which she had been Involved; and it now became the duty of Great Britain to use every means of alleviating her distress, and to identify the interests of the two countries.

said, that painful as the contemplation of the state of Ireland must be to every well-wisher to the prosperity of the British empire, it was gratifying to witness the tone and temper with which the subject had been discussed on both sides of the House. The right hon. gentleman who had just spoken, had on this, as on all former occasions, infused into his observations that spirit of moderation by which alone a discussion so difficult could be conducted without the danger of injurious consequences. The right hon. gentleman had on this, as on all former occasions, looked at the question before the House with a statesmanlike eye. The temporary difficulties and misfortunes of Ireland had not induced him to despair of her ultimate prosperity. On a former subject the right hon. gentleman had shown himself to be a true prophet. By the civil exertions of the empire, and, under the protection of providence, by the vigour of our arms, we had surmounted the external dangers to which we had been exposed, and he now trusted, with the right hon. gentleman, that the wisdom of parliament would trace out all the evils of our internal con dition, and eventually apply to them an effectual remedy. With respect to the motion itself, the debate upon it had, he repeated, been conducted with the utmost temper. No disposition had been evinced in any quarter to aggravate the existing evils; and the differences between the two propositions before the House did not appear to him to be of a nature which forbad them from being reconciled. He trusted that the right hon. baronet, if he was not perfectly satisfied that there was some substantial benefit to be derived from adhering to his proposition which would not result from the adoption of the amendment of his right hon. friend, would set the example of unanimity in this the first stage of the discussion of the state of Ireland, and that he would not press the House to a division, unless he felt that there was a great practical difference in the two propositions. For his own part, he was persuaded, that his right hon. friend had laid the only true and practical ground on which the House ought to proceed. Had his right hon. friend contended that the state of Ireland was such as not to render any parliamentary consideration necessary; had he maintained that it ought to be dismissed altogether from the thoughts of that House; had he asserted that the government of Ireland, having been provided with vigorous laws, and armed with a large force, to carry those laws into effect, should be left to its own operations, unfettered with any parliamentary deliberations on the subject, then he should have felt that the right hon. baronet's proposition stood on a firm foundation. But his right hon. friend went along with the right hon. baronet in the assertion, that the state of Ireland was a case of inquiry; he went along with him in the assertion, that in that state there were evils to which the the wisdom of parliament might apply a remedy. With a view to the consideration of this remedy, his right hon. friend had proposed ah address to the Crown for that information on which the remedy was to be founded. He hoped, therefore, that the right hon. baronet would consider the importance of unanimity, and accede to his right hon. friend's amendment. Nothing could be conceived less desirable than that a disunion of sentiment should be manifested with respect to the subject under consideration.

To what did the difference of the two propositions amount? In. the early part, in the practical part of the hon. baronet's proposition, he was in unison with his right hon friend; but the right hon. baronet then proceeded to assure the Crown, that as soon as the required information should be produced, the House would proceed to take it into consideration, and to found upon it such measures as might to them seem best calculated to remedy the existing evils. Now, nothing could be less necessary than such an assurance. How could it be doubted, that when parliament called for information on any subject, it was for the purpose of founding on that information some ulterior proceeding? The assurance, therefore, that the House would do so was totally unnecessary. If, by the assurance, the right hon. baronet meant to convey an impression to the Crown, and to the people of Ireland, that the House was prepared to countenance some particular measure, he (lord Castlereagh) had no hesitation in avowing it to be his opinion, that such a declaration, which circumstances would, perhaps, not allow the House to follow up, was most unwise. He was the more disposed to resist such a gratuitous pledge, because experience had shown the futility of it. The House would well recollect, that in a former session, in a discussion on the Catholic claims, they came to a general declaration, in the form of a resolution, that early in the next session, they would proceed to take those claims into consideration, with a view to their conciliatory adjustment. It did happen, however, that when that session arrived, circumstances occurred which induced the House not to carry their intention into effect. He stated this the more freely, because, as was well known to the House, he was a warm friend of that measure, to the adoption of which the resolution to which he had alluded had in a great degree pledged parliament. He was firmly of opinion that acquiescence in the Catholic claims would mainly tend to tranquillize Ireland. But the experience of that event induced him to wish to avoid any general pledges which might in their consequences compromise, or appear to compromise, the faith of parliament.

It was a great satisfaction to him, and it must be a great satisfaction to the House to observe, that whatever differences of opinion might exist on other parts of the subject, there was but one sentiment with respect to the temper and conduct of the Irish government. How- ever hon. gentlemen might be at variance on other political questions, no one had attempted to assert that the noble lord at the head of the Irish government had wielded the authority entrusted to him in any other way than that which was wholly consistent with an exemplary discharge of his duty towards those whom he was called on to govern. The present lord lieutenant of Ireland had been compelled to put in. force the laws enacted for the particular circumstances in which Ireland was now placed: but he (lord Castlereagh) had never heard the slightest animadversion, on that noble lord's conduct, and had never heard it imputed to him, that he had exercised the power thus given to him without tempering it with as large a portion of mercy as was consistent with rendering its exercise effectual with respect to the object for which it was afforded. The principle of his government had been to administer the laws wisely, temperately, and liberally to the people at large, and indulgently even to those by whom they had been violated. It must be equally satisfactory to those interested in the fate of Ireland to observe, that the gentlemen on the other side, differing as they did in politics from himself, and those who thought and acted with him, yet bore evidence to the disposition manifested in the discussions in parliament, to look at the interests of Ireland, with partial and liberal eyes. In fact, no policy was capable of more distinct recognition in parliament, than the desire to raise Ireland in the scale of the empire, in point of wealth and comfort. He was fully, persuaded that the people of Ireland might be made a well-informed and moral people. Even at present their minds were much better cultivated than those who did not know them appeared disposed to admit; for it was most untrue that the Irish were in such a state of utter ignorance as that in which they had been frequently represented to be. He concurred with the right hon. gentleman opposite in thinking those were wrong who considered the people of Ireland to be generally uneducated. It was not true that they were remarkably deficient in intellectual knowledge. He could take upon himself to say, this was by no means a correct character of them, So far as his experience went, they were rather the reverse of this. He spoke principally of the north of Ireland, where the population, far from being such as had been supposed, was such, that he knew no country in which the inhabitants were more intelligent. The knowledge which he spoke of was not confined to the higher or middling ranks of society, but absolutely pervaded all classes; extending even to the lowest.

On all those questions which were intimately connected with the welfare of Ireland, his majesty's ministers, far from wishing to avoid, were anxious to enter upon the most ample discussion. They were desirous that every thing of importance to the sister kingdom should be carefully investigated, but they wished the propositions submitted to them to be of a less general nature. It was their earnest hope that all those questions in which Ireland was greatly interested would be brought forward singly, that they might be thoroughly understood, receive the undivided attention of the House, and be discussed with a view to some practical result. Nothing grieved him more than to see the affairs of Ireland brought before the House by a motion so general in its nature, that they could only be treated historically, instead of being so fully investigated as to promise a practical remedy to the grievances which were alleged to exist. While he admitted those grievances to be considerable, he must still remark that it gave him pain to see that exaggerated view taken of them in which some gentlemen were disposed to indulge themselves. In some instances he had remarked a disposition to suppose those miseries were constantly to be endured throughout the whole country, which had never afflicted but a part of it, and which, however great, were not greater than had been known at various periods in other civilised countries, whose case had, notwithstanding, been far from desperate. Disturbances as alarming as those complained of in Ireland, had but a few years ago existed in some of those counties of England which were generally among the best affected and the most orderly. If the character of England had been taken from the state those countries were in at the period to which he referred, would that have been just to the country at large? At that time, from the disturbed state of several counties, it had been his painful duty to come down to parliament and propose certain strong measures to repress those disorders which at that time occurred. With as much reason as Ireland was now described to be generally in a state of disorganization, might a foreigner then have left that House, after hearing those statements which it had become necessary to make, with an impression that Englishmen were a race of barbarians, whom nothing but extreme rigour could restrain, and whose situation was such, that their case must be viewed as hopeless for all time to come. Would such representations of the state of this country have been just? Certainly they would not; and those representations which were sometimes put forth of the present distress and future prospects of Ireland were not more entitled to implicit credence, than would these have been of the then situation of England.

He would repeat it, the government, far from being indisposed to avoid the discussion of questions connected with Ireland, were most anxious to meet them singly, that they might be fully debated. When gentlemen thus should bring them forward, and when the details could be gone into, it would be seen that ministers would not fail to give their best attention to them, and be constantly ready to encourage the prosecution of the inquiry; They were particularly eager to sanction and assist an investigation of that most important branch of the subject—the finances of Ireland. On that great question which had excited such universal interest in this country—on the claims of the Catholics to emancipation, it was no secret that there were great differences of opinion in the cabinet. But, however opposite the views which the members of the government took of that question, in one point, at least, they were all agreed—they had never any objection to its being brought into discussion, nor to state their several opinions on it, whatever these might be. It was with sincere regret, that on the subject of the Catholic claims, he found himself compelled to differ from those with whom he had the pleasure, as well as the honour, to act; but he, nevertheless, did not hesitate to say, openly and manfully, as he conceived it was the duty of each of his majesty's ministers to do, what were his feelings on this disputed point of policy. He did consider it would be a most auspicious event for England, when, from the state of public feeling in this country being such as to prepare the way for that great measure which had been so long in contemplation, those privileges could be extended to the Catholic subjects of this realm, in which they so ardently desired to participate. He should rejoice when the time arrived that this question might thus be met, and when that emancipation which had been claimed could be conceded on those grounds on which he had always contended it ought to be granted. He certainly did think, to carry our administration on in Ireland with a high hand, it was necessary that we should lift ourselves wholly above all the prejudices arising out of the religion of those for whose happiness and protection we were bound to provide. It was not by the principles of their religion that we ought to regulate our legislation. He hoped we should rise above the little apprehensions which might at present be entertained, and which he trusted experience would one day put down. That prejudice vanquished, by giving the Catholics the emancipation which they claimed, we should allay much of the irritation which we had at present to lament was in existence, and thus gain an immense increase of national strength. He did not see that that danger was to be anticipated from acceding to the prayer of the Catholics, which some thought they could clearly discover. If the concessions made in their favour should be attempted to be abused, it must be seen that their strength was not sufficiently great to enable them to shake the whole fabric of our constitution, and the effort must inevitably be successfully repressed. He had always considered the risk which would thus be run so small, when compared with the immense advantages and the vast increase of strength likely to result from it, when the public mind should be prepared for the measure, that it weighed little in his mind against the policy he recommended. He was, notwithstanding, of opinion, that the Catholic question ought not to be made a government question. It would be a misfortune for the question itself, for the empire at large, and the Catholics above all, if it were to be made one; or if it were attempted to be carried, before the public mind had been well prepared for that change in our system which he contemplated. At present the state of public feeling was certainly not such as could be wished for the reception of such a measure. He was of opinion it had been fast growing to the point which he could wish it to reach, but he thought it had been dashed by the temper which had unhappily been manifested on the other side of the water. Before the relief which they prayed could be granted, a different tem- per must be formed on the side of the Catholics. When they were disposed to adopt such regulations as were necessary to calm the apprehensions of their fellow subjects in England, but which at the same time were not in any respect at variance with the principles of their religion; when they showed a disposition to conciliate, rather than to outrage and intimidate, he should be, as he always had been, an advocate for emancipation; but when the reverse of this appeared in their conduct, he could be no friend to the measure at that time.

To the motion submitted to the House by the right hon. baronet, he could not but object. If he voted for the original address, he thought he should do that which would cause expectations to be cherished that might not be realised. If hopes should thus be excited, which were afterwards to be disappointed, to the many misfortunes of Ireland would be added one of those most to be dreaded, a new agitation and disturbance in the public mind. With this impression he could not support the motion of the right hon. baronet, but must give his vote for the amendment of his right hon. friend, which he thought would better answer the purpose the right hon. baronet had in view, than the motion itself.

thought it was incumbent upon ministers to afford the House such, information on the state of Ireland, as should explain the circumstances which induced them to call on parliament for an army of more than 20,000 men; and which justified them in the assertion, that nothing but the presence of such a military force could preserve Ireland to this country. The address called, as it ought to do, for information on the causes of the present situation of things in Ireland; it desired the Crown to give that information which it was the duty of ministers to enable it to afford;— that which would bring before the House the nature, extent, and causes of those circumstances on which the statements ministers had thought fit to offer were founded, and on account of which, they had not scrupled to demand a large military force to watch over Ireland in time of peace. This was the character of the motion of the right hon. baronet;—now, what was the amendment of the right hon. gentleman which the House had been called upon to adopt instead of it? The amendment proposed that the Crown should be prayed to tell the House by papers which the right hon. gentleman was willing to lay on their table, what had been the nature and extent of the disturbance which had prevailed; and doing this, the House would only be informed of that which, in point of fact, they already knew, and which every man might read in any common newspaper; at least in those cases where the offenders had been punished by the law. The right hon. gentleman merely proposed to give papers on subjects which could no longer be supposed to be secret. There was, indeed, a time when the documents which he was now disposed to produce, might have had some interest. Before the parties to whom they referred had been brought to trial, they might have furnished some information of material importance, but now, as he had already said, they could tell the House nothing but what it already knew.

The right hon. gentleman had said, it would not be wise now to proceed to inquire generally into the state of Ireland. It was for the House to consider whether this declaration was well founded, and also to reflect whether any man could have a right to say, the condition of that country was likely permanently to improve, if some change were not effected in its general system. On that great question, which most materially effected the happiness and tranquillity of Ireland, the House would feel it a duty to bear in mind what they had that night heard from two of his majesty's ministers, who, in this instance, were diametrically opposed to each other. The chief secretary for Ireland had said, after giving his best attention to the subject he was conscientiously of opinion, that the granting of what was called Catholic emancipation, would be a step most inimical to the interests of England. The noble lord opposite, his majesty's chief secretary of state for foreign affairs, and the minister of the Crown in that House, had said of the measure so much feared by the chief secretary for Ireland, that of all others it would be that which must prove most beneficial to this country. How was it to be expected that Ireland could be tranquil and happy under a government thus divided in itself? How could the people of that country rest satisfied while they were told by one of their rulers, that the measure which they most anxiously sighed for was one which was not only just and desirable as it regarded them, but even pressed for its adoption as one of the best that could possibly be resorted to, with a view to the general welfare of the empire;—and when the right hon. gentleman, who execrated much of the patronage and influence of the Crown in Ireland, told them that he differed from his noble colleague, and viewed the measure in question as one likely to be most injurious in its effects? How was it possible for a people thus circumstanced to be tranquil, when the noble lord excited their hopes by expressing himself decidedly in favour of that arrangement which was the object of their wishes;—and when immediately after, the right hon. gentleman, who had a principal share in the administration of their affairs, dashed those hopes, and gave them to know that all the weight of his influence would be thrown into the scale against their obtaining the relief they wanted? It was impossible that any people on the face of the earth who were thus treated, could be quiet.

His right hon. friend, the member for Dublin, had said, he did not despair of our affairs in Ireland, and did not doubt but a great improvement would be effected in the condition of the people. He calculated on seeing the present grievances in an identification of interests, and expected the financial difficulties and commercial distress, now complained of, would be soon got over (as he regarded them but as evils of a temporary nature), and the evils now most severely felt removed, when the insurgents or banditti, as he had not improperly styled them, who now disturbed the peace of Ireland, were put down. But what prospect was there of seeing the face of things thus auspiciously changed? Was there reason to suppose any approach to " identification," while the right hon. secretary considered catholic emancipation would prove most injurious to the interests of the empire, in direct opposition to the sentiments of the noble lord. Mr. Ponsonby said, he did not wish on this occasion to enter into the question of the catholic claims. He had no desire to take up the time of the House by deviating from the question before it; but it was impossible for him to speak of the grievances and disturbances of Ireland, without mentioning the want of catholic emancipation as the first on the list, as the most important in point of principle as it was in policy, and as one of the chief causes of the divisions which existed in that unhappy country.

It had been said, the military arrange- ments made for Ireland were but temporary, and that the force called for, had been demanded but for one year. He apprehended it was intended to keep it up so long as the necessity for maintaining such an army existed; so long as the causes of the vote now required, should continue to operate. He condemned, as much as any man could do, some of the late proceedings in Ireland. The conduct of a portion of the Catholics, he held to be most unwise, and most injurious to the cause of which they proclaimed themselves the advocates. But while he thus censured the conduct to which he alluded, he felt himself called upon to say, that if those to whom the administration of Irish affairs were entrusted meant to act like statesmen, they would not, on this account, refuse any thing that could be safely conceded to the reasonable part of the Irish community. If they meant to do so, in consequence of the intemperate proceedings of some of the Catholics, they would never succeed in tranquillizing Ireland—never—never—never! Unless something were done to meet the wishes of the great body of the people, it was only by a military force that Ireland could be preserved. If nothing were granted, the army which it was now proposed to keep up, must still be maintained; and how long the circumstances of the world would be such as to put it in our power to do this, he would leave the House in their wisdom to determine.

On the subject of grand juries, he wished to observe, that in the committee formerly appointed, he had suggested that for the due administration of justice in Ireland, it was desirable that the office of sheriff, as a political office, ought to be put an end to. He had long entertained this opinion, and was much gratified to find the right hon. secretary for Ireland acquiesced in this view of the subject. That right hon. gentleman had stated much mischief to have arisen from a measure having for its object the separation of the office of sheriff from politics not having been brought forward before. This was unquestionably true—it was most true that this had been one of the greatest evils in that country. He had lived long enough in Ireland to know the grievances described as arising from this source had not been over-stated. Now that a constitutional alteration was made with respect to this office, he hoped a change for the better would be experienced—he hoped the regulations which had been made would prove effectual. The sheriff would, he trusted, be for the time to come, the minister of law and justice only, and not the instrument of any particular minister. The feelings which had heretofore animated the sheriffs in Ireland in favour of this or of that minister were such, that no adequate idea could be formed of them in this country, and the result of them had been that those placed in that office had been constantly found exerting all their influence—not for the benefit of the country—but for the advantage of the person or party, to whom they were devotedly attached.

It had been said, that it would be difficult to effect a reform in the magistracy of Ireland: he perfectly agreed with this assertion. It would be difficult to effect a reform, but nevertheless this was that which ought to be accomplished. He was of opinion, though a work of toil, it might, and he was sure it ought to be accomplished. He would offer a few further observations on this subject, which was in some degree connected with what he had attempted to do in the office which he once had the honour to hold. When the question on it was first raised, and a committee appointed to inquire into it, he had expressed a hope that there would be a full attendance, not merely of Irish, but of English members. This he had thought a step of great importance; and he did not believe what had been lately done with respect to the sheriffs of Ireland, had been advanced so much by any circumstance, as by that of the full attendance of English members, which had been obtained. He thought these discussions on the state of Ireland did great good, inasmuch as they had the effect of giving those who attended them, information respecting that country, of which they were not possessed before; and from their becoming acquainted with the manner in which the law was there administered, they were led to feel anxious that those arrangements should take place, which hecontended were of great importance to the well-being of the country. When he had the honour to hold the great seal for Ireland, he had found that the Catholics were, in point of fact, excluded from many of those offices which they were eligible to fill by law. He had found that a Catholic gentleman was never chosen for a magistrate:—not only the office of sheriff, but even that of a justice of the peace was invariably given to the friends of those who had political power. Such a state of things he had viewed as that which ought not to exist: a complete change he had felt must be effected in Ireland, and all idea of making the officers of justice subservient to political purposes, he was satisfied ought to be at an end. On looking into the state of the magistracy, he had found it to be any thing but what it ought to have been. He found among the magistrates one who had been a waiter at a little inn, and whose office it had been to wait behind the chairs of the grand jury, over whom he was subsequently chosen to preside. He had found several cases in some respects similar to that just alluded to, and to those he had thought it his duty to supply a remedy. He had tried to effect a general reform, and he had undertaken so arduous a task in this way:—he first wrote to every privy counsellor and peer in the kingdom, requesting each to point out to him, without regard to any political or party feeling, any magistrate known to them, against whose continuance in office any fair objection could lie. Acting on this principle, the information which he Obtained, enabled him to effect some important changes. He had only been able to apply this plan to two counties, before he retired from office. Enough, however, had been done, to show that a general reform might be effected, and ought to be accomplished, at the first favourable moment. He hoped that duty would be taken upon himself by the noble lord who now held that great seal for Ireland, and he doubted not his efforts would be crowned with success. He would certainly find many difficulties were to be encountered; and he would be placed in situations in which it would be almost impossible to avoid giving offence to those whom he must of necessity be most unwilling to offend; but these things he was sure, would have no effect on that individual's mind, as he would feel that nothing was so important as to go through with the great duty in question, and effectually purify the magistracy of Ireland.

Many of the evils which had been complained of in the sister kingdom, were said to arise from the want of a resident gentry in Ireland. He knew not how to speak on this subject without touching on a question on which he had always been most anxious to preserve silence. Whatever his feelings might have been before the measure to which he alluded had become the law of the realm,—when it had once passed, he wished it not to be disturbed; but, certainly, if he were to dwell on any of its injurious consequences, he must name the absence of a resident gentry as one of them; for this he conceived to be one of the consequences which had naturally flowed from the union. But the right hon. secretary had said, to induce the House to reject the motion of the right hon. baronet, that the object of it would be completely answered by the amendment which he had offered in its stead; and the noble lord had said, (with the same object in view), that ministers would be ready, if the present general motions were abandoned or thrown out, to hear and discuss any motion that might be brought forward on any particular grievance complained of. The noble lord wished propositions to remedy specific evils to originate on that side of the House. What was this but to express a wish on the part of ministers to abandon the duties of government, to their opponents? In no other light could he view a proposition coming from the minister of the Crown, that those opposed to him should bring forward those measures which they thought would be properly applied to specific grievances, promising for himself and his colleagues, that they would hear and attend to them, without bringing forward any plans of their own. This was really to abandon the government of Ireland to their opponents, and perhaps it was not surprising that they should take such a course; for how could it be expected that any plan could be produced for the better administration of Ireland by a government divided like the present? It was almost impossible to expect any regular plan could be adopted by the present administration under existing circumstances; since the state of the cabinet was such, that if one were proposed by the noble lord or his right hon. colleague, it was almost certain they would quarrel with one another, and the breaking up of the administration would probably be the consequence. Such an apprehension, he thought, might be reasonably entertained, but notwithstanding this, it was ridiculous for ministers to hold the language which had fallen from them in this debate, and propose to their opponents to come forward with specific projects for improving the condition of Ireland,—as if they (the opposition) had it in their power to remedy the evils which they could not but deplore. He would ask the Speaker what had been their fate (the fate of the party now opposed to ministers), when they did bring forward a plan for the relief of Ireland? While in office, they had ventured to attempt this; and though they had claimed a very paltry boon, compared with what the sister kingdom ought to receive, what, he would ask, was the result of the effort so made—?Why, the result was this,—they (the then ministers) were all turned out, and many of those who now professed to be much in favour of the measure which was then rejected;—who felt it to be one of great importance, and who were convinced it would be productive of infinite good to Ireland, and of substantial benefit to England;—many of those persons had joined in the cry raised against the administration of that day, as it was said in behalf of the established church [Hear, hear!]. They had had no other inducement held out to them than this, to bring forward specific plans for the relief of Ireland, while they sat on the treasury benches, and what better treatment had they received since they took their seats on the opposite side of the House? They had often made motions on the subject of the grievances complained of, and these had indeed been heard and discussed, but they were never lucky enough to carry any of them [Hear, hear!]. He, for one, would bring no plan forward. If ministers would submit any proposition to the House on the subject, he would attend to it, and enter into it as far as he was able; but he would take upon himself to originate none, as he was satisfied, that any thing suggested from that side of the House, would be sure to be rejected [Hear, hear, hear!]. It had been said of him, that he had talked loudly of the debt of Ireland, as if it were meant to be insinuated, that he was not sorry for the existence of that state of things which he lamented, and had rather felt inclined to exaggerate than to diminish the evils of it, when speaking on, that subject. This had been hinted two months ago. He was glad the eyes of the right hon. gentleman opposite, were at length opened to the real state of Ireland. He was glad of this, because if he had made a statement like that which had been heard from the right hon. secretary, it might have been thought that, in taking this course, he was actuated by a desire to excite discontent, rather than to allay those heats which at present; unfortunately prevailed. He was glad the statement which they had heard came from a quarter where such a design could not be imputed. From the other side of the House what had been said might tend to do good; but had it come from the opponents of ministers, it might only have served to produce ill blood. He trusted some measure would be brought forward, fitted to the present state of things; but he, for his own part, had none to propose on the subject of Ireland.

He would now put it to the House, if, instead of the motion brought forward by the right hon. baronet, it would be well, under all the circumstances of the case, to adopt the amendment of the right hon. gentleman, which, in point of fact, went to give them no information which was not already before the House? The right hon. gentleman had said the amendment was substantially the same as the motions. He admitted it to be the same as the first paragraph of the motion, but the difference between the motion and the amendment was this:—the first paragraph of the former, which was taken into the amendment, was followed up by a call for a statement of the causes which had produced the present situation of affairs in Ireland. This not being taken into the amendment, the latter would bring forward no useful information, while it went to deprive the motion of its most essential part, and to take from it the power of doing any good whatever. Entertaining this opinion, he should give his negative to the amendment and support the original motion. He was convinced the amendment would tend to supply no real remedy to the evils complained of. If the course recommended by the right hon. gentleman were adopted, it would leave the House just where it found them, and give them no reason to hope that the same causes which now existed to make a military government necessary in Ireland, would not remain to produce a similar arrangement in the next year, and in the year after the next. From the amendment, he could see no grounds for believing that the time would speedily arrive when Ireland would no mere be governed by the sword. He hoped the motion of his right hon. friend would be adopted, and that such measures would be devised to meet the grievances now complained of in Ireland, as would at last bring comfort to its inhabitants, and at the same time augment the strength and resources of the British empire [Hear, hear!].

rose, amidst loud cries of Question! question! He endeavoured to I point out the difference between the two addresses which had been moved. The arguments of the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, he maintained were futile, and dissimilar to any line of argument adopted during the whole course of the debate.

said, that, as an Irishman and an imperial representative, he could not suffer this opportunity to pass without giving his opinion on the question. In the county which he had the honour of representing, peace, order, and tranquillity had reigned for the last sixteen years. As he understood this subject, there were three principal evils by which Ireland was afflicted. First, the absence of the gentry from the country; and on this point he should be heartily glad if those gentlemen could be obliged to pay out of their own purses for their non-residence: secondly, Catholic emancipation; and upon this head his firm opinion was, that, until it was granted, Ireland could not be relieved from its burthens: and thirdly, education—a subject, he was ready to admit, of great importance; but it was a fact, that there were now in Ireland 5,000 principal schools, besides hedge-schools; for such was the thirst after knowledge among the lower classes of the Irish, that they actually sent their children to obtain instruction under the hedges.

was of opinion, that, if a futile concession were made on each side, measures highly beneficial to Ireland might be devised.

then shortly replied. He contended, that it would be impossible to apply a remedy without knowing the nature and extent of the evil. The object of his motion was, not to procure information of the disturbances, the existence of which was notorious, but to institute an inquiry which should trace them to their sources.

The House then divided: