K. C. B. being come to the House, the Speaker ac- quainted him that the House had, upon the 23d of June in the last session of parliament, resolved, that the thanks of this House be given to him for his indefatigable zeal and exertions upon the 18th of June, when the French army, commanded by Buonaparté, received a signal and complete defeat; and

gave him the thanks of the House accordingly, as followeth;

"Major-general lord Edward Somerset;

"At length we are gratified by seeing amongst us one of those distinguished officers to whom this House has voted its thanks for their eminent services in the battle of Waterloo, a victory eclipsing the fame of all other battles fought in those celebrated fields of war, and consummating the glory of the duke of Wellington, with whose great name the gratitude of this House has justly associated that of field marshal Blucher.

"In the narratives of that gigantic conflict, our historians will always relate, that major-general lord Edward Somerset, already known by his brilliant services in the southern provinces of France, held a high and forward command in those gallant charges by the British cavalry which defeated and destroyed the boasted squadrons of cuirassiers. They will relate also, that lieutenant-general sir Henry Clinton, who had in five former battles commanded divisions of that heroic army which rescued Portugal and Spain, maintained a conspicuous post in the support of that embattled line where the British guards repulsed and put to flight the imperial guards of France. Nor will those other illustrious men be forgotten, who might now have been standing up amongst us to receive our thanks, if the fate of war had not laid them low in their grave of glory, soldiers long dear to the affections and remembrance of their country, which will never cease to revere and regret, the veteran but ardent valour of Picton, or the bright and rising honours of Ponsonby.

"The days, indeed, of these our mingled triumphs and griefs are now concluded. Other scenes have opened, and other cares have arisen to demand our vigilance. From the long contest, however, now happily closed, this durable advantage has resulted to our country. We have proved to ourselves, the value of those manly habits and institutions which have established the superiority of our national character; and such splendid examples of skill, valour, and constancy, as we have had this day to commemorate, will deeply impress upon our enemies, and upon our allies, in all ages, a just respect for the counsels and arms of this empire,

"The special duty which I have this day to discharge is, to deliver to you the thanks of this House for your last great services. And I do therefore now, in the name and by the command of the Commons of Great Britain and Ireland in parliament assembled, deliver to you their unanimous thanks for your indefatigable zeal and exertions upon the 18th of June 1815, when the French army, commanded by Buonaparté, received a signal and complete defeat."

Upon which lord Edward Somerset said,

"Mr. Speaker;

"I beg to express to the House the high sense I entertain of so distinguished a mark of its approbation conferred upon me for my conduct in the memorable battle of Waterloo: deeply impressed with the importance of such an honour, I am conscious that I want words to convey in adequate terms my sentiments on this occasion. Sir, whatever merit my humble exertions in this great conflict may be deemed entitled to, I cannot but attribute to the fortunate circumstance of my being placed in command of a brigade, whose persevering gallantry, discipline, and intrepidity, contributed so largely to the success of this important day. Animated by the example of that great man, under whose command we had the honour to serve, and who had so often led us to victory and to honour, every individual of the British army was naturally inspired with but one feeling: that feeling, and a well-grounded confidence in their commander, enabled them to surmount the most formidable obstacles, and to bring the contest to a successful issue: that it was my lot to form part of the army on that day, and that my conduct should be deemed worthy of receiving the thanks of this House, will be ever to me a source of the utmost satisfaction, and will be remembered with pride and gratitude to the latest period of my existence.

"I cannot conclude without expressing to you, Sir, how sensible I am of the flattering terms in which you have been pleased to communicate to me the resolutions of the House on this occasion."

That what has been now said by Mr. Speaker, in giving the thanks of this House to major-general lord Edward Somerset, together with his answer thereto, to be printed in the votes of this day.

understanding that the second reading of the Alien Bill was fixed for this day, begged to state, that there were some accounts for which he was desirous of moving, and the production of which he thought indispensable to the House before this bill proceeded through any further stage. He alluded to an account of the number of aliens sent out of this country at the instance of the minister of any other country.

begged the hon. and learned gentleman would give notice of this motion.

then gave notice for Wednesday, adding, that he presumed the second reading of the alien bill would be postponed.

said, that if he had brought in the bill himself, he should have moved the order of the day, for the purpose of postponing the second reading till to-morrow, on account of the bill not being yet printed, or in the hands of the members. In the absence of his noble friend (lord Castlereagh), he would now venture to move the order for the second reading, with the view of having it discharged.

thought it important that some day should be fixed for the second reading of this bill, when gentlemen might come down with a certainty of entering upon the discussion. This was impossible, he thought, to-morrow, and therefore some more distant day ought to be appointed. He could not here help alluding to the manner in which this bill had been introduced to the House. Leave was moved for, on one night, after along discussion, and when very few members were in the House. It was subsequently brought in, and read a first time, under similar circumstances, and at two o'clock in the morning the second reading was fixed for this day. This was a sort of precipitation which he could not help thinking savoured of a disposition to steal a march, which, with a bill of so much importance, he considered extremely reprehensible. This was a bill which should be discussed in all its stages; he therefore hoped some distant day would be named, on which they might all come prepared to meet the question fairly.

said, that of course there would be an opportunity afforded of dis- cussing the bill on the motion for its second reading, which was the usual stage for discussing the principle of a bill. There was however, a necessity in the present case, that no time should be lost, as the existing act would expire on the 12th of May. He had no objection, on the part of his noble friend, to comply with the suggestion of the hon. gentleman by postponing the second reading till Wednesday, as there would be a pressure of business to-morrow before the House.

objected to Wednesday as too early a day. It would be impossible for the House to be furnished with the necessary papers and information upon the subject, so as to come to the discussion on Wednesday.

The motion being put, that the said bill be read a second time on Wednesday,

observed, that the expiration of the late act was no sufficient reason why ministers should wish to press this measure with such haste through the House. The country could not be in any danger from the number of aliens who were now in it, more particularly as we were at peace.

observed, that if any great mass of business should occur on Wednesday, the second reading might then be further postponed till Friday.

thought it better to have a day fixed when the bill would certainly come on. If it were fixed for Friday, it would come in the orders, and would take precedence of any motions which might be for that day.

observed, that the question was one of great commercial importance, and therefore the bill ought not to be hurried through the House.

said, there could be no objection to let the second reading stand for Wednesday, on the understanding that if it could not be properly discussed then, it would be farther postponed.

said, that this was a measure of such importance, that it should not be allowed to pass through the House at uncertain times. It required the most mature consideration, and therefore it would be better to fix some certain day for the discussion. With this view he would propose Monday next. The measure was a most extraordinary one, and he could see no reason for hurrying it through the House. The right hon. gentleman opposite talked of the necessity of the measure as being most urgent; as if the country was in the most imminent danger; as if there were 20,000 foreigners in the kingdom ready to rise up in rebellion, and to be assisted by an invading enemy, just ready to dart down upon our coasts.

did not know whether the hon. and learned gentleman who spoke last meant to allude to him as one of those who talked of this bill in the way which he had described; if so, he was certainly much mistaken. Such mistakes were very usual with that hon. and learned gentleman, for he sometimes said that he (Mr. Long) and his friends were laughing, although they had been looking as grave as possible. He could only say, that he wished the second reading of the bill might be fixed for a day on which it might be understood, that if it could not come on it would be farther postponed.

thought Wednesday too early a day.

said, he had heard no good reason why the bill should be hurried through the House. Friday, in his opinion, would be a proper day to fix for the second reading.

moved, as an amendment, that the bill be read a second time on Friday.

hoped his right hon. friend would not consent to give up his motion for Wednesday.

observed on the various public business that stood for Wednesday, and even for Friday, which, if it came forward, would still further postpone the bill.

observed, that he was not anxious to hurry the bill through the House, but he had heard no sufficient reason assigned for its being postponed.

The House then divided, when there appeared

The bill was then ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday.

chairman of the select committee appointed to examine the policy of imposing an increased duty on the import of foreign seeds, and who were instructed to consider of the laws relative to woollen goods, and the trade in wool, and also to consider of the laws prohibiting the growth of tobacco in Great Britain, before he brought up the report of that committee on the subject of wool, begged to remark, that an alarm had been excited among the manufacturers of woollen cloth, and, in consequence, many petitions had been presented to the House, which were in fact utterly unnecessary, inasmuch as the fears entertained by the petitioners were groundless. The committee had directed their inquiries to the price of wool, from the year 1780 down to the latest period, and the result of their inquiries was, that for the last ten years the price of wool, so far from decreasing, had increased. The committee, therefore, had come to a resolution, "That it is the opinion of this committee, founded upon the examination of evidence relative to the prices of British Wool, that no part of the present agricultural distress arises from the inadequacy of those prices, and, therefore, that it is not expedient to make any alteration in the laws relating to woollen goods and the trade in wool." But he begged to observe that, on the main question, no consideration or inquiry had taken place. As to the question of taking off the duties, the House was no nearer it than before. He should make no further comment; but, whether right or wrong, nothing was done to assist the House further by the report, which he then brought up.

said, that representing as he did a county that was one of the principal seats of the woollen manufactory, he had of course had many communications on this subject. The object of the committee had not been sufficiently understood by the manufacturers: it was not to prevent the importation of foreign wool, but to see whether such a duty might be imposed upon it, as to encourage the home-growers of wool, and also to consider whether the home wool should be permitted to be exported: but it being found by the committee that wool had been constantly rising in price for the last ten years, there appeared to them no reason for altering the laws on the subject. He was decidedly adverse to any alteration, thinking that a brisk trade of our woollens was the best encouragement that the wool-grower could receive.

stated, that he was prevented from attending the committee, except at its last sitting, by his avocations at the quarter sessions. It surprised him very much to find, however, that it had only sat three days, and then came to the resolution now stated. The object of the committee's appointment, he conceived, was, to see whether the wool-growers of this country should have some protection from the competition of the immense quantities of foreign wool now imported, and which had increased within a few years from five to fifteen millions of pounds. The committee, however, instead of making those investigations which they were directed to do, had merely inquired into the prices of wool for the last twenty years, and these prices they had taken from the mouths of the manufacturers themselves. They had heard no evidence from other persons interested; but, on these ex-parte statements, had come to the resolution, that it was inexpedient to give the wool-grower any advantage in the home-market. He protested against the report.

also expressed his astonishment at the nature of the report. The committee was appointed to inquire into one thing, and they had inquired into another. It was in fact no inquiry at all, so far as related to the matters referred to them. In support of this, he begged that the instructions given to the committee should be read. This being done by the clerk at the table, the hon. and learned member contended, that the business assigned to them was to inquire into the policy of any increase of duties on the importation of foreign wool, into the trade in wool generally, and into the laws on wool as they now existed. These topics they had entirely overlooked. No one had asserted that the agricultural distresses proceeded from the low price of wool: on the contrary it was expressly stated, that had it not been for the good prices of wool, these distresses would have been much greater than they actually were. But the question was, were these high prices likely to continue, occasioned as they were by the large Russian orders for clothing 200,000 men, by which many districts were busily employed for the present? Had we not, however, rather reason to apprehend that, when these temporary demands were over, wool would be as low as other articles of agricultural produce? Now, what was the fact as to this report? The committee had not called a single wool-grower; the whole amount of their full and impartial inquiry had been to examine a few woollen-manufacturers. They had, in fact, considered only one branch of the important subject assigned to them. He felt a strong disposition to oppose the report being laid on the table, and to move that the whole be referred back to the committee for further consideration, because, if received, it would be a vain attempt during the rest of the session to fight up against the weight of the committee.

considered the present discussion irregular, seeing that the merits of the report were not yet before the House. He never recollected such a course to have been taken on any former occasion. The resolution that had been adopted by the committee was proposed by the hon. chairman himself, and no division had taken place on the subject. His hon. and learned friend who spoke last had held extraordinary language as to the conduct of the committee, and had laid down extraordinary rules for the guidance of committees in general. He said, a committee ought to examine, no matter whether such an examination appeared to be necessary or not, every part of every subject referred to them. Now he, on the contrary, would maintain, that there was a discretion given to every committee, to investigate a subject as far as they might deem necessary, and that they were not bound to proceed an inch further. He was convinced, when the House saw the report, and the evidence on which it was founded, which his hon. and learned friend treated as if it were no evidence, they would be of opinion that the committee had encouraged a just and fair investigation of the subject, and had gone as far as the necessity of the case seemed to require. Before he went into that committee, he felt strongly against the agitation of the question at all; and what was disclosed, in the course of the inquiry, rendered his opinion, that this was the worst moment that could possibly be selected for disturbing the system by which the woollen trade was regulated, still more decided. It appeared, on examination, that the price of wool did not occasion, nor add to, the agricultural distress; and, until the contrary was shown, he would contend that the committee had acted correctly in agreeing to the resolution which his hon. and learned friend objected to, since it would prevent the excitement of a discontented spirit in the manufacturing counties.

concurred in a great part of what had fallen from the hon. gentleman who had last spoken. An additional duty on the importation of foreign wool. would, it appeared to him, not only be unadvisable, but absolutely ruinous to our woollen trade. It was said, that the committee had not gone so far into the subject of the exportation of wool, as they ought to have done. Now, what was the question referred to them? It was not an abstract question relative to the exportation or importation of wool, generally—but as that exportation or importation was connected with the agricultural distresses of the country. The committee up stairs took its rise in a committee of the whole House, instituted to consider of those agricultural distresses. Subsequently to the formation of that committee, but growing out of it, a committee was appointed, to inquire into the importation of seeds into this country—and to that committee the question of the woollen trade was referred, but the whole subject had reference to the agricultural distresses. The committee were satisfied, that the woollen laws, as they at present existed, and as they affected the agricultural interest, ought not to be changed. It appeared to him, that though they had not gone into the inquiry at great length, they had investigated the subject sufficiently to enable them to say, as they had done, that it was inexpedient to alter the laws, relative to the woollen trade, at the present moment.

said, that, in bringing up the minutes of evidence taken before the committee, he did not conceive he had committed any very material impropriety, when he offered a few observations to the House. With respect to there having been no difference of opinion in the committee, and no resolution brought forward, except that proposed by himself, he wished to say a few words. At the first meeting of the committee, they were called on to consider the price of wool, at former periods, and at the present. He advised a different course; and stated the reasons which called for its adoption. His proposition was, to inquire into the effect which a small duty on the importation of foreign wool, would probably occasion. The committee distinctly dissented from his motion, which was negatived. To the resolution, which was then proposed, he suggested certain verbal amendments, to enable him and others to agree to it, without sacrificing that opinion, which they conceived to be correct.

observed, that his statement merely went to this, that a resolution, proceeding to a certain extent, was agreed to, and that no division took place on it

said, he coincided in the opinion of the committee. No necessity existed for altering the laws relating to the woollen trade.

was of opinion, that the committee had narrowed their examination of this question in a very great degree. Having it proved in evidence before them that certain prices were given for the raw material, it was then thought necessary that the proceedings of the committee should be speedily closed. Certainly, when such a determination was come to, full notice should have been given to every member of the committee. Now here a decision had been formed, after an examination of two days; and, on the morning of the third, a notice was sent round, stating, that it would be proposed, on that day, to close their proceedings. As a member of the committee, he received a notice about two hours before the period appointed for their meeting, and it so happened that it was utterly impossible for him to attend. It certainly did appear to him, that, when it was contemplated to close the proceedings of the committee, two or three days notice ought to have been given. In consequence of this precipitation, the hon. member for Essex only arrived time enough to hear the discussion of the question, whether the proceedings of the committee should be closed or not.

said, he gave regular notice, on Friday, that he intended to move for the dissolution of the committee, and he supposed a circular letter was, in consequence immediately sent to every member.

said, he received his notice at eleven o'clock in the morning of the day fixed for moving that the proceedings of the committee should be closed. One o'clock was the hour of meeting.

said, he was a member of the committee, and supposed, from the first, that it was appointed to consider the laws relating to the woollen trade. Believing this, he had not attended on the first day; for he thought it was as impossible to go through a subject of this magnitude in two days, as to conclude the business of the session in that period. On the day when it was proposed to close the proceedings of the committee, he received a notice about eleven o'clock. He could not attend, on that occasion, being obliged to meet another committee, on the laws relative to distillation. He regretted, most sincerely, that the committee had pursued a course so little likely to answer the ends for which it was formed, much less to give satisfaction to those who were most deeply interested in the inquiry.

applauded the conduct of the committee in making a speedy report, which would tend to allay the agitation created throughout the country by the consideration of the question. He was sure, that, had it not been out of respect for the hon. member for Essex, no committee would have been appointed, because no general desire existed to investigate the question. He did not know how many agriculturists had demanded an alteration of the woollen laws, but he believed the petitions that touched on that subject were very few. The agriculturists had no right to complain of the price of wool. At no time had that article produced a higher price; especially coarse wool, which foreigners particularly wanted. But, in order that we might still maintain our superiority over the foreign manufacturer, it was essentially necessary that our coarse wool should be kept at home.

considered the present discussion as extremely premature. It was an extraordinary course of proceeding to debate on the contents of a report, of which, not having been received, the House could know nothing. When the report had been read, it would be competent for any hon. member who thought the committee had not effected the object the House had in view, to move that they should proceed farther in their inquiry, or that the report should be referred back to them.

defended the course adopted by the committee, whose labours were not confined to two, but extended to three days. (A laugh.) On the first day of their meeting, it was distinctly stated, that the wool-growers should come forward to show the necessity of an alteration in the law; but not one of them appeared. It was then suggested by gentlemen who now found fault with the proceedings of the committee, that the wool-staplers would be the best evidence. They were accordingly called in and examined; and nothing was since offered, or attempted to be offered, in contravention of their evidence. It was, therefore, an attempt to impose on the House, to assert, that no evidence was before the committee.

said, that no evidence on the part of the agriculturalists was examined. When the wool-staplers were called in, he stated that the hon. member for Essex was not in town, and requested the committee to postpone the examination till he arrived, but his suggestion was not attended to.

differed from his hon. friend (Mr. Calcraft) as to the discretion vested in a committee. His hon. friend said, that a committee must perform their duty, according to the dictates of their discretion. He, however, would contend, that a committee had no right to abandon any part of a subject which the House ordered them to investigate. They had no discretion by which they were at liberty to narrow their examination in any degree. Here, however, the committee had contracted their investigation very much. The only evidence called on the subject was ex-parte evidence; and how they could conceive such a proceeding to be the best way of coming at the truth, he was very much at a loss to guess.

said, the committee was in existence before Easter, and consequently it was in the power of the agriculturalists to adduce any evidence they right think proper. It was not a question with respect merely to agriculture, but one of general policy; and the committee felt it to be their duty to inquire how far, by an alteration in the woollen laws, the country could be benefited. They found, so far from the growers of wool suffering any distress under the present system, that they were all perfectly satisfied with their prices, which were higher now than they had been for many years. No case having been made out, to show that the agriculturists had a right to complain of the present prices of wool, the committee thought it was most prudent not to meddle with the existing laws, and to close their proceedings as soon as possible, lest by an injudicious interference they might seriously injure the woollen trade.

was of opinion that the committee had acted properly in closing their proceedings as soon as possible. In the abstract he thought the importation and exportation of wool ought to be equally free; but, from the evidence, he was led to believe, that if such a principle were acted on immediately, its effects on the woollen trade would be highly injurious.

The report was then brought up, and the resolution was read. On the question "that the report be laid on the table,"

before he went into the committee, had thought it necessary to alter the laws respecting wool; but in the course of the inquiry he had found the error of that opinion. The doors of the committee were, he said, surrounded by persons absolutely clamorous with their petitions; and the committee had come to the decision, that the agricultural distress was not caused by the price of wool.

observed, that the proposition which he had made to the committee at the outset of the business having been negatived by a large majority, and another motion having been adopted, their subsequent proceedings had been consistent enough with those decisions. It was, in his opinion, not at all necessary that the agricultural interest should be obliged to make out a case; but it was the duty of the committee itself to institute any inquiry which they might think necessary. No evidence was necessary to prove, that a duty on importation would be a protection to the home grower, or that the extension of his market would be a benefit to him. The committee had, however, so early decided on the main point, that all subsequent inquiry was unavailing.

did not approve of the line of conduct adopted by the committee, though he thought as far as the evidence went, they had given a just opinion as to the result.

thought the line taken by the committee too narrow.

said, it was very doubtful whether the report was worth the expense of printing. They had heard of the influence under which it was drawn up, viz. that of the manufacturing interest only, who, on these occasions, with a zeal worthy of imitation by the agricultural interest, were always ready with their agents and their evidence. As the agricultural interest did not nor could display the same activity, it became the duty of the House to attend to their interests for them. The ferment which had been dreaded was now laid, and he hoped the report would be taken only for as much as it was worth—which was little or nothing. It consisted of a truism, and a non sequitur. It stated that the price of wool had not been a cause of the agricultural distress. No one could say it had been, but it had been imagined that it might be the means of affording relief to that distress. The inference which the committee had drawn from their first proposition was any thing but a legitimate one—that therefore there was no cause to alter the laws on this subject. On the other hand, he thought, that to legislate under difficulties was the worst mode of proceeding in the world; and that therefore, if the wool laws were in a defective state, the present was a better moment for amending them than if the market had been in a bad state. It was on the same principle that he objected to the motion on the usury laws, the repeal of which would be an extremely good measure, but which he did not think should be considered under the pressure of temporary difficulties.

said, the committee were not unanimous, except on their last vote. He believed that no member of it had received any representations from the growers of wool. It was highly necessary to allay the ferment that existed, and he hoped that any member who had a motion to make on the subject would give early notice.

concurred with his hon. and learned friend as to what was the proper season for legislating, but thought his hon. and learned friend rather hard on the committee, as the question before it bore only on the agricultural distress, and immediately on the question of exportation.

contended, that the farmers had an interest in the prosperity of the wool market as much as the manufacturers.

The report was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.

moved the order of the day, for taking into further consideration the report on the bill to limit the duration of polls, and to establish scrutinies, and for making other regulations touching the election of members to serve in parliament for places in Ireland. The order of the day being read, the hon. member entered into a comparative review of the present law of elections in Ireland, and the bill which he proposed to enact. By the present laws a sheriff might protract the election to almost any extent, and thereby cause a ruinous expanse to the candidates; but by his bill the poll would be closed within twenty days from its commencement. He was aware that it might be objected, that a sheriff, if he favoured one candidate, might protract the polling in the hostile booths; but to prevent that, he would propose that it should be imperative on the sheriff to poll eighty every day in each booth. The bill would, however, be better examined in the future committee; he would therefore move, that it be re-committed on Friday next.

said, that after the several clauses proposed by his hon. friend should be introduced, he should propose to have the bill printed, in order that its merits might be fully considered.

opposed the bill notwithstanding its improvements, especially on account of the clause by which voters were to show their leases to prove their right of voting. Supposing that they lived in different parts of a county, which they generally did, and had 60 or 80 miles to go with their leases, they would run the risk of losing the only document on which their property and their elective rights were founded.

strongly supported the bill, and dwelt upon the litigation, difficulty, and delay attending Irish elections, especially where the returning officer had any bias. The difficulty and delay he instanced in his own case, where the election was extended to 15 days, although there were only 900 voters to poll. But when he had to petition against the return, the scrutiny continued no less than 76 days in Ireland, and 16 days before the committee of that House, before his claim was established. Such a system was, the House must feel, calculated to weary out any candidate; and as the evils belonging to the system were imposed upon the Irish representatives, by the Union, it was peculiarly the duty of the imperial parliament to remove them.

spoke in favour of the measure, for the introduction of which he thought the Irish representatives peculiarly indebted to his hon. friend. For it was known that candidates were too often harassed by the length of the poll, which in some cases had extended to 70, nay, to 80 days.

observed, that no beneficial effect could possibly result from the present discussion, and he trusted, therefore, the House would abstain from prosecuting it any further.

The bill was ordered to be re-committed on Friday.

rose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill for securing the profits of the office of Clerk of the Pleas of the court of Exchequer in Ireland. He said he was anxious, in consequence of what had passed on a preceding evening, to take the earliest opportunity of explaining the nature and object of the proposed bill. It was matter of notoriety, that upon the death of the late earl of Buckinghamshire, the office of clerk of the pleas in Ireland became vacant, and it was a matter of equal notoriety, that the office itself was one which parliament had declared required regulation. A right hon. baronet, the member for Waterford, had drawn the attention of the House to that office in the course of the last session, and a pledge was then given, that whenever it should become vacant some measures would be adopted for its revision. When the earl of Buckinghamshire died, he certainly thought that the right of appointment to the office rested in the Crown, and it was his intention to fulfil the pledge for regulating it before any appointment was made. In the mean time, however, the chief baron of the Irish exchequer, conceiving the right to belong to him, had nominated a person to the office, and the nominee had been regularly sworn in. The bill which he meant to propose would not interfere in any way with that appointment, as the question whether the right belonged to the Crown or to that individual would be determined by the decision of a court of law. But then, when it was considered how great a delay might arise before that decision was given, and the great extent of emoluments attached to the office, the legality of many of which was much doubted, a question naturally arose in what way they were to be disposed of. With respect to the Crown, no appointment would be made by it, except for the mere purpose of trying the right, and, therefore, whoever the person might be so appointed, he would have no claim to the fees or emoluments. He certainly could not think it would be expedient to leave profits so immense at the uncontrolled disposal of the individuals receiving them. It was his object, therefore, to propose the bringing in of a bill, which should provide, after a certain day to be therein named, that the profits of the office should be impounded, till the question was decided in a court of law as to who had the right of nomination. The persons receiving the fees would be compelled, at the expiration of each quarter, to give an account of their amount, and to pay them into the treasury. Of course it would be necessary, meanwhile, that some adequate provision should be made for those who performed the duties of the several offices, and that, he thought, might be left to the discretion of the Irish government. These were the objects of the bill. With regard to the principle of vested rights, he did not see now it could apply in any manner to the present question. The office had been declared, long ago, a fit subject for regulation. Besides, considerable doubts existed as to the legality of many of the fees, and certainly whatever might be said about vested rights generally, it could not be pretended to urge a vested right in favour of emoluments which might be declared, in themselves, illegal. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving, "That leave be given to bring in a bill to secure the profits of the office of the clerk of the pleas of his majesty's court of exchequer in Ireland, whilst the right of appointment to the said office is in litigation."

highly approved of the measure which the right hon. secretary proposed. He believed that the fees of this office amounted to 35,000l. a year, three-fourths of which were illegally taken. It would now be seen that he was perfectly warranted in stating, on a former occasion, that great abuses existed in the courts of justice in Ireland; and he was convinced that the most important benefits would be derived from prosecuting a complete inquiry on that subject.

hoped that he should not be understood to have said that three-fourths of the fees were illegal.

said, he had not alluded to what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, but to a statement that had been made on the preceding Friday. The illegal fees taken in that court amounted almost to a denial of justice.

denied that he had accused the right hon. baronet of exaggeration, in what related to Ireland. If he remembered rightly, he admitted the probability that he was correct in that point, from the greater opportunities which he had of acquiring information. What he complained of was, the sweeping nature of his censure, as applicable to all the offices both in England and Scotland.

said, he had not meant, on a former night, to be understood to say, that three-fourths of the fees were illegal. He had merely stated that the fees altogether amounted to about 30,000l., of which the majority were illegal. The duties of the clerk of the pleas were, usually done by his deputies and clerks, all appointed by himself; but the fault was, that the actual salaries were very small, being 100l. a year to the first deputy, 60l. to a second, 50l. to one set of clerks, and 20l. to another, but those persons were allowed to exact in fees what they might deem an adequate remuneration.

said, that if any thing were wanting to show the importance of this question, the statement which had been just made was enough to satisfy the mind of every member. Abuses would perpetually arise in courts of justice, if the vigilant and censorious eye of parliament were not fixed upon them. Great benefits would arise from the labours of the committee that had been appointed to inquire into the state of the courts in Ireland; and all who were present must rejoice that the duty had fallen into, such able and upright hands. With respect to the particular question before the house, he thought the right hon. secretary had taken a very accurate view of it. As to vested rights, he considered that the notions of properly ought to be held most sacred: all property was the creature of the law, and ought to be respected by the law, more especially in popular governments; but the doctrine of vested rights could not be applied to the present case. It would be ridiculous in the extreme to contend, that there existed a vested right in the chief baron of the exchequer to appoint a person to this office; and he was glad to find that nobody in that House had ventured to advance such a proposition. He thought, however, that the profits should be impounded from the period of the death of the earl of Buckinghamshire; and as they all agreed that the office should be regulated, he did not see why they should not proceed at once to make a regulation. The House should fix the duties which ought to be performed, and specify the amount of the emoluments to be received. He pressed upon the right hon. gentleman to regulate the office in the present session; and he gave it as his recommendation that it should be regulated on such principles as would not allow it any longer to be a sinecure, or permit the person who drew the emoluments to reside in England, at a distance from the scene of its duties.

in reply, stated, that the officers in question would be compelled to account for the whole of the fees, from the time that the office became vacant by the death of its late holder. The present bill had no reference to the regulation of the office: it went merely to provide that its emoluments might receive their proper destination after the right to possess them was decided. The bill for regulating it could not be introduced till the report of the commissioners was received. Any enactment that should be made, before this report was received, would be made in the dark.

admitted the validity of the observation made by the right hon. gentleman, but trusted the commissioners would be enabled to make a special report upon this particular office. If he was in the habit of making compliments across the table, he said he should give the right hon. gentleman credit for both the show and the reality of zeal that he had evinced during the whole of this business.

explained the cause of the delay which had arisen in the arrangement of the commissioners report. They had had more than one hundred sets of fees to inquire into, besides the ramifications involved in their examination. There was one of the offices which in its return stated an individual without specifying what his duties were; indeed, they knew not in what manner to designate them, and yet when the commissioners entered upon a particular examination into the occupation of the individual, they traced to him the receipts of fifty-three fees, producing about 1,300l. a-year. In fact, the regulation, or re-modelling of the fees of the court of exchequer, involved the whole machinery of judicial proceedings in Ireland; it was therefore imperative on the commissioners to proceed with certainty, but with caution. When they had been called upon to inquire into the exchequer office, they were within a week of making a report on the state of the court of chancery. Still, however, notwithstanding the difficulties that interposed, they hoped to have it in their power to make the report in the course of the present session. To show the nature of the enormous accumulation of fees in the courts of Ireland, he had to state, that in the office of the clerk of the court of errors, the fee of 1s. 6d. a sheet had, in a single case, amounted to the enormous sum of 459l. This accumulation arose from a vicious multiplication of the ratio laid down for the fees. This sort of proceeding ran through the whole system. He had known an instance Where a judge's registrar charged 161l. for a single attendance on a particular trial. He had also known that where a master in chancery was allowed 2s. 6d. fee, and 10s. 6d. for attendance, 400l. had been charged in a single case. It was equally within his knowledge, that in the six clerks' office 1,300 attendances had been in one case charged; and where copies of decrees were wanted, at a fee of 8d. a sheet, above 500l. was charged, exclusive of 400l. for attendance. The registrar of the court of chancery had 1s. a sheet, which often amounted to 150l. In fact, there was no end to the irrelevant matter that was introduced into those sort of sheets, for no other purpose than to augment the fees. The commissioners had not only to wade through all those details, but to fight their way inch by inch. The system of taxing costs was also open to every species of abuse; the tax officers were often the deputies of the principal, and therefore not deeply interested in reducing the amount of fees. Now, the first deputy in the exchequer had his salary arranged in 1803: he was left 1,000l. in fees, and a compensation of 2,000l. a-year; out of the 1,000l. in fees, he, however, created an augmentation of 5,000l., so that his whole income was now 7,000l. a-year. There was evidently a radical error in this mode of compensation. The commissioners had, therefore, to proceed upon a complete principle of revision, and he hoped the House would not, in the end, be dissatisfied with their services.

observed, that he had heard the statement of the hon. gentleman with a mixture of surprise, indignation, and pleasure—surprise at the existence of such abuses, indignation at their extent, and pleasure at the accuracy and industry that the hon. gentleman and his fellow commissioners had displayed in probing the subject to the bottom. Those abuses, however, were not confined to Ireland: he was informed that in one court in this country, the hand of taxation was more gently exercised than in the others, with a view, perhaps, among the inferior officers, of attracting more business. The union of Ireland with this country would greatly facilitate the revision of the abuses complained of, as it would not expose them to discussion amidst local prejudices and interests. The hon. gentleman concluded by hinting, that he would shortly bring before the House the great evil of certain practices in the revenue board.

thought it proper to expose the unwillingness of the inferior officers to give the necessary information to the commissioners, by which their labours were protracted; but their conduct had never had the support of their superiors.

was quite satisfied that the matter should rest with the commissioners already employed. The result of the inquiry had now proved what he had anticipated last session, namely, that nothing could be more futile than the objection taken to this inquiry, on the ground of its casting an imputation on the judges. He had filled a high judicial station in Ireland, and he assured the hon. gentleman that the practices stated by him were quite new to his ears; indeed, the parties were evidently interested in preventing their reaching the judgment seat. As to the Union, he would only say, that the facility of suitors obtaining redress, must have been injured, not served, by it; as they could not follow up those applications in this country, which were necessarily attended with a heavy expense. He hoped the report of the commissioners would soon be ready—at all events, he was willing to wait for it.

thought the abuses complained of amounted to a complete denial of justice, and were of themselves calculated to create the disaffection complained of in that country. He spoke strongly on the extent of the evil, and on the criminal conduct of many persons, attornies and others, in not exposing long ago such flagrant abuses. It was not for want of provision in the law, but from a dereliction of duty in the officers, that the abuses had so long prevailed.

Leave was then given to bring in the bill.