complained of an inaccuracy which he had noticed in one of the daily papers in the few remarks he had made the other night on the question of the bank restriction. He considered it of some importance to correct such an error, which might otherwise go out to the public unnoticed. What he was made to say in one of the daily papers was, that " there was not a bank director who was not anxious to resume cash payments as soon as possible, while, at the same time, they were all grateful for the present bill, as it allowed them two years for doing so, within less than which time it could not with certainty take place." He denied having made such a statement; but what he had asserted was, " that the measure ought not to be considered as one applying only to the bank of England, but as a measure in which the general interests of the empire were concerned." This was what he had on that occasion stated, and he disowned having made any declaration that the directors of the bank were thankful for the present bill.

seeing the chancellor of the exchequer in his place, wished to submit a motion to the House for the production of certain papers; and, when the subject of them was known, he was convinced there would be no objection to their being laid before the House with the least possible delay. He alluded to certain circular letters issued under the authority of the treasury to the surveyors of the different districts, calling upon them to transmit full and particular copies of all the assessments to the income tax. The dates of these letters were in March, May, and August, 1815, and called upon the surveyors for copies of the assessment under the tax for the year 1815. For what purpose these accurate copies of the assessment were required, it was now immaterial to ascertain; but he believed no one could doubt but that they were intended for no other purpose than for the better enforcement of the tax. Under these circumstances, it was very natural to suppose, that with the tax the application for these assessments would expire also: but the fact was not so, for he had understood, from very good authority, that on the 17th of April, 1816, about a month after the vote of the House had put an end to the very name of the property-tax, as it was hoped, letters were issued from the treasury, calling upon these surveyors of taxes for full and complete copies of the assessment of every man's income. Now, if such were really the fact, he should wish to know what could be the object of making this inquiry into the affairs of every man, after the act had expired? It was to him, he confessed, a perfect mystery. To gratify what curiosity, in what quarter, for what purpose, was this full and complete copy of the assessment of every man's income—for those were the words of the letters—to be given? Clerks were employed to make out copies of these assessments, and the returns made to London were ordered to be kept in neat books, which were accessible, not merely to the commissioners of taxes, but to every little petty clerk in the office. With the hope, therefore, of hearing from the right hon. gentleman opposite that no such orders were issued, or at least, if issued, without the authority or knowledge of the treasury, he should conclude with moving, " That there be laid before the House copies of a Circular Letter in March, May, and August, 1815, from the tax-office to the surveyors of the different districts, respecting the transmission to the board, of copies of all assessments to the income tax, and of all letters on the same subject in April, 1816."

had no objection to the production of the papers called for by the motion. Such a circular as the hon. and learned gentleman had described had certainly been issued by the board of taxes in the discharge of their duty. No new orders had been issued on the subject; but it was obvious, if some step of this kind had not been taken, many irregularities must have occurred in the collection of arrears.

observed, that such could not be the object of the returns, for it was mentioned in the circulars sent to the collectors, that the returns should be made out with neatness and accuracy, as they were to be kept as records in the tax-office. To such records being kept he had a most strong objection, as they would give an unfair exposure of the private circumstances of individuals who paid the tax. He thought it unjust to have such documents to refer to, in order to see what such and such a man was worth at any particular time, and he should soon take an opportunity of moving, that directions be given to the board of taxes, in order that they may take steps for the destruction of all such records.

replied, that he should, when the return was made, be prepared to meet any motion the hon. and learned gentleman might think proper to make.

deprecated this system of preserving the records of the assessment of the property of individuals, as being a remnant of that inquisitorial measure which the sense of the country had destroyed.

The motion was agreed to.

gave notice that on Monday he would move a congratulatory address to his royal highness the Prince Regent on the marriage of the Princess Charlotte.

thought that on such an occasion the earliest day possible should be taken for the Address [Cries of ' Move, move!'].

rose, in pursuance of the notice which he had given on a former evening to move for leave to bring in a bill for the better regulation of his majesty's civil list. The consideration of this question was, he said, attended with much embarrassment, from its very complicated nature, which was such that it was hardly possible to make a statement respecting it, so clear and so free from all difficulties, as to enable gentlemen, who had not given their minds to the subject more attentively than most of the hon. members of that House could do, to see all its combinations, and all the inferences growing out of it. It was a question also of great delicacy, as it went to expose the immediate expenses of the sovereign, and the expenses of the Crown were naturally looked upon with more jealousy in this country than any other. In making this assertion he did not mean to say that there was not as much generosity in this country as in any other; but, in this, as in all free governments, and in this as the freest of all more than in any other, an excess on this head was viewed with a suspicious eye; and that which came immediately home to the sovereign, was uniformly a matter of anxious and national inquiry. He felt likewise much pain in entering on this question, as there was no subject on which more misrepresentation had gone abroad; because a notion existed that the civil list expenditure had no connexion with the public service, but solely related to the sovereign. He wished to place the question on fair grounds—he did not pretend to deny that a considerable portion of the sums granted for the civil list were to meet the necessary expenses of royalty; but for the greater part of them, it was as completely a national expenditure for the service of the country, as the grants annually made for the army and navy, and every other department of the public service. He was anxious that the proposition should be fairly understood, and that it should be seen in a proper light. It was therefore his intention for the present to throw out of his consideration the provision made on the civil list for the junior branches of the royal family, as he should have to speak on that subject hereafter. This he proposed to deduct from the expenditure of the civil list in the estimate which he should submit to them, as also that incurred for the Windsor establishment. The expense last adverted to, the House must be aware, arose from the calamity that had fallen on the country, by which it found it-self with a king unable to discharge the functions of sovereignty, but for whom it must, notwithstanding, keep up a suitable establishment. If the expenses thus thrown on the country were included in the estimate, its amount would be 1,339,000l., and out of this sum only 409,000l. could be brought home to the sovereign to support his public splendour, or to meet the charge of his domestic enjoyments; and in this sum 60,000l. was comprehended, which appeared in the first class of the civil list for the privy purse, as also the additional 10,000l. granted to her majesty, when it became necessary to form that establishment of which he had just spoken. The whole amount, including every thing, of the expense that could fairly be charged to the sovereign did not exceed 409,000l., which, it would be seen, did not equal one-third of the whole of the civil list.

Having stated this, it would now be proper that the House should look at the debts of the civil list, and here it would be seen, that though some had originated in the personal expenses of the King, yet, that the great mass of them were not incurred by the sovereign, but arose out of the service of the country. One broad fact would serve to establish this, and to show how large the expenditure on the civil list for the public service was in some years when compared with what it was in others. In the estimates from 1804 to 1811, the average charge for foreign ministers did not exceed 200,000l. per annum. This was so low, in consequence of our being in those years almost entirely cut off from continental connexion; but now, from the changes in our political relations, there was an augmentation of not less than 150,000l. on this branch alone of the civil list. Of course this proceeded from the circumstance of our being at present in connexion with every part of the continent, instead of being in that situation to which he had just adverted. He, therefore, again asserted, that the accumulation of debt on the civil list, which had so often been animadverted upon, was occasioned, not by the excesses of the household department, but by the increased charges on those branches of it which were connected with the public expenditure of the country. He wished the House to take the charges of the fourth and fifth classes of the civil list into their consideration; to look at the provision made for the sovereign, including the junior branches of the royal family, and the present Windsor establishment. He wished them to do this, and then look at his estimates, and compare them with the burthens thrown on other countries for the maintenance of their respective royal families. If, for instance, they looked at France, they would find a sum of 24,000,000 of livres, about one million sterling, was set apart for the royal family. Of this sum no part was applicable to the public service, as well as to the royal expenditure; but it was distinctly appropriated to the royal family alone; and this sum was that which might fairly be compared with the 409,000l. of which he had spoken, and which were applied to the same purpose in this country. The junior branches of the French royal family were excluded from all participation in the 24,000,000 of livres; and they received largesses and other allowances from the country. There was another point of view in which this subject ought to be contemplated. It was necessary that it should be separated from those unfair imputations, almost amounting to calumny, which had been spread abroad on the subject of the increased expenses of royalty. It was painful to bring these under the notice of the House; but certainly it had been argued, as if there was something wrong in the administration of the civil list, merely from this fact, that it had been impossible to confine its expenditure within those limits within which the Crown had undertaken that it should be bounded. Surely it was unnecessary for him to say, that if the income of a private individual, or of a sovereign, had been fixed at a given sum fifty years ago, from the alterations which had taken place in the general condition of things it was impossible for either the one or the other to sustain his establishment as formerly without some assistance. To expect this would be absurd; as it would be to require an absolute impossibility. While on this subject, it ought always to be borne in mind, that from feelings of economy his majesty, in the early part of his reign, had consented that his civil list expenditure should be regulated on a principle different from that which had formerly been acted upon; and had accepted of a fixed revenue, in lieu of those improvable funds which had formerly been appropriated to the Crown. Had not this change been made, and had the King conducted the service of the civil list throughout the whole of his reign with those funds which had been provided for other sovereigns, and especially for his immediate predecessor, instead of coming to that House to ask them to discharge his debts, he would have been able to have avoided the necessity of such an appeal during the fifty six years of his reign, and not only would he have been able to avoid coming to parliament for the discharge of his debts, but there would have remained to him a surplus of 6,300,000l. In making this statement he took into the account the charges which would have fallen on the Crown had it made all those provisions for all the numerous branches of the royal family which had been made by parliament, and also all those charges which had been taken from the civil list and carried to the consolidated fund. Taking all these into the account, the Crown would have been able to meet them all out of those funds which it had formerly possessed, and which had been granted by parliament to king George 2nd. From this it would be seen that the public had gained by the arrangement which had been made with his majesty no less a sum than 6,300,000l. in the course of the present reign. The funds which in the reign of George 2nd, had been given to the civil list, were to be made good by parliament, if their produce fell short of 800,000l.; but should it exceed that amount, the surplus was to be given to the civil list, and was not to be considered applicable to the public service of the country; and thus a fructifying revenue had been put into the hands of the king. He stated this as a strong fact—not to lull the jealousy of the House on the subject of the civil list expenditure, nor to induce them to undervalue that economy which ought to regulate all their proceedings at a period like the present, but to dispel those clouds of misrepresentation and calumny which had been accumulated on the subject. He wished it to be known that the arrangement to which he had referred had proved most advantageous to the public, and that the increased charges which had accrued on various points of the civil list were unavoidable, and had absolutely arisen ex necessitate rei. This he thought it proper to state, that those who attempted to raise an outcry against the supposed extravagancies of royalty might be told, that a very small portion of the debts which had accumulated on the civil list originated in the immediate expenses of the sovereign.

Under these circumstances he proposed to move for leave to bring in a bill for the better regulation of the civil list, and in doing this, while opening the subject, he should divide it into three heads. In the first place he should take a retrospective view of the civil list expenditure for a series of years, and this he should compare with a view of its revenues. Under the second head he proposed to submit to the House the best prospective view he was able to afford of the probable future expenditure of the civil list, and to ascertain how far the funds appropriated to it were inadequate to the service for which they had been assigned, and how additional funds could be raised in a way most consistent with public economy. It was proper that he should here observe, that in all the reports which had been made, on the subject of the civil list from the year 1802, it had been admitted, that the revenue was incompetent to meet the expenditure, and that a period must arrive when parliament should take the whole question into consideration, in order to decide what steps it would be expedient to adopt, and how the deficiency could best be supplied. The period at which this inquiry should take place had been postponed to the termination of the war. It was deemed desirable that it should be discussed in peace rather than during the war, because it was thought so long as the war continued, extraordinary aids, such as droits, &c. would be derived from it to the Crown, which might make any new regulation for the time being unnecessary. It was on this principle that the delay in settling the civil list had occurred, though it had been well known for the last twelve years that some such arrangement was wanting. When, however, peace had arrived, the casual aids which had accrued to the Crown, of course, fell in, and it became necessary to equalize the revenue and the expenditure of the civil list. The third and last head on which he should speak, would be the prospective regulations which would be necessary for upholding the proper splendor of the Crown, which ought not to be reduced below that scale on which it had hitherto been maintained by the country, and which was consistent with the principles of the constitution, while, at the same time, all due regard ought to be had to economy, and every effort made to prevent as much waste as possible, in order to avoid a recurrence to parliament for further assistance. His object was, in short, to fix the expenditure of the civil list on such a footing, with respect to its income, as should offer to parliament the prospect of establishing it for a very extended period, on such a basis, that no further appeal to their liberality should be rendered necessary.

He should now proceed, in the first place, to take a retrospective view of the expenditure of the civil list. He wished to state what the expenditure had been for a number of years, right or wrong, and what had been the income set apart to meet it.

During this period the revenues of the civil list, as he had already stated, were unequal to satisfy the demands they were intended to meet. In the seven years up to 1811, their average amount, under the settlement of 1804, was 995,000l. Since that period, from various circumstances, they had been swelled to 1,060,000l. It would be seen that the revenue, in the course of the seven years, had fallen short by about 1,000,000l.; and since that period the deficiency had considerably increased. On the face of this statement it would appear that there was a tendency in the settlement which had been made of the civil list to create debt. If the House looked to the reports of all the committees which had been appointed to inquire into this subject, it would be found, that every one of them had uniformly pronounced that the estimate of 1804 had been completely inadequate to its object, and was not in fact borne out either by those circumstances which had preceded, or by those which followed it. On all hands, the insufficiency of the civil list income had been allowed, and the augmentation of it had only been delayed on account of those casual aids derived from the war, of which he had already spoken. The gross amount of the debt which had accrued on the civil list since 1804, was 2,500,000l. The liberality of parliament had granted in discharge of that sum 762,000l. An advance made by the Crown from its West Indian revenues, and from the surplus of the Scotch civil list, to the amount of 1,738,000l. had still further reduced the debt. During the same period, it was to be recollected that the Crown out of the same funds (in the year 1807, he believed), had advanced the sum of 1,000,000l. for the service of the public, to meet the supplies of the year. If, instead of doing that, the Crown had applied this sum of one million to the discharge of the debt on the civil list, so far from having occasion to apply to parliament for assistance, that sum would have more than covered the whole of the remaining debt, and would have effectually prevented the inconvenient pressure which it had experienced. But it was not merely this sum of 1,000,000l. which had been advanced in 1807, that had been furnished for the public service, by the liberal consideration of the Crown—in the course of the war the sum of 2,800,000l. had been thus appropriated. These facts would go to prove, that if the Crown had been in possession of its former revenues, it would not have had occasion to approach parliament for any assistance. He wished the House to be aware, that if there had been a frequent recurrence to parliament, it arose from the misfortunes, not from the faults of the Crown; nay, he might say they grew out of its merit, in taking at a former period, a fixed income in lieu of the funds appropriated to it, which fixed income had proved inadequate to meet the charges thrown upon it. He had described the situation in which the civil list, down to the period at which the last report on this subject had been made, and from this it would be seen that a subsequent accumulation of debt was inevitable. Down to the 5th of last January, this situation of things had continued, and the debt incurred at that period amounted to 277,627l. This, however, had been discharged by a further advance out of the admiralty droits, as he showed from official documents, and he had no occasion to call on the House to make any provision for the liquidation of that debt which had existed at the period last mentioned. The noble lord then briefly recapitulated the substance of the statement which he had made—he re-stated what had been the average expenditure, and what the average revenue of the civil list in the seven years ending in 1811; he showed what had been the charges on it and the means of meeting them, in the years 1812, 1813, 1814, 1815, and 1816, and having anew described the former means of the Crown, and the recent burthens of the civil list, he proved that had the sovereign continued to possess the revenues which were formerly his, he could have met the whole of the demands referred to even on their late extended scale.

He now came to the second head, on which he proposed to offer some observations to the House; and in doing this, it would be his object to show, as nearly as he was able, what was likely to be the charge of the civil list prospectively, as far as a judgment could be formed upon it by those most conversant with the subject. Gentlemen were aware that an estimate had been framed on the best views that could then be taken of the question in the course of last year. That estimate had certainly been framed with reference to a period of war, and also in contemplation of the existing prices of the various commodities of necessary consumption. But though those were much greater than the prices of the present day, he did not think it fair to reckon on the continuance of the latter. It had however been thought proper that the subject should be re-examined, in order to ascertain what reduction could be effected. The amount of the estimate made last year was 1,478,682l. The gentlemen charged with the duty of making those inquiries, had included some services which it had not been thought advisable to retain in the present estimate, which was in consequence considerably below the former. That which he had now to propose amounted to 1,339,495l. This, compared with the estimate he had just mentioned of last year, presented a reduction of 139,000l. It was right that he should observe, that a double expense was in some instances incurred, from the situation in which the country stood with respect to the indisposition of his majesty. So long as the king remained in this unfortunate predicament, some additional services must necessarily be charged, which, under other circumstances, would not swell the civil list. Looking fairly at the subject, he considered the expenditure thence arising ought not to be deemed as that which would attach to the civil list in ordinary times. While we continued to have both a king de facto and a king de Jure, this double expense was inevitable. The 100,000l., therefore, which was thus thrown on the civil list, ought to be deducted from it prospectively, as also the 60,000l. for the privy purse; and with these the additional 10,000l. granted to her majesty in consequence of the situation of things at Windsor. Might not, then, the 170,000l. which had been granted by parliament in 1812 for the services last enumerated, and which Mr. Perceval had brought forward for the sanction of the House, be fairly taken from the permanent charge which his estimate would bring on the country? He therefore did not consider this estimate to be more than the fair mean between the charges which had been incurred on the civil list in the years to which he had referred. Deducting the 170,000l. for the Windsor establishment, the privy purse, and the allowance to her majesty from the 1,339,495l. which was the amount of his present estimate, it would be reduced to 1,169,495l. This as the medium between the charges that had occurred on the estimates of 1804 and 1811 was that to which he thought no objection could be made, and those estimates were the criterion by which he would wish it to be judged.

He then came to the question as to the proper mode of meeting the future expenditure of the civil list on the estimate which he had described. Parliament, he contended, had contemplated the necessity of augmenting the revenues of the civil list, not merely in the reports of its committees, which the right hon. gentleman opposite, and others, might maintain were not binding until they had been adopted by the House; but he thought an augmentation had been countenanced, if a direct sanction could not be proved to have been given by the House collectively; he meant in that law relating to the civil list which parliament had enacted, and which provided that whenever the expenditure should exceed the estimate of 1804 by 124,000l., or, what was the same thing, the estimate of 1811 by 10,000l., the subject was then to be brought before the House, in order that they might consider what steps it would, in consequence, be proper to adopt. He had already stated the average expense of the civil list from 1804 to 1811, to amount to 1,103,000l.; the difference between which and that which he took prospectively as the average of 1,168,000l., gave an addition of 65,000l.; being the increase which he now called for. If, then, an increase of 65,000l. over what had been the average expenditure up to 1811, was all that was demanded, he did not think the House would be surprised at the magnitude of the charge, when so many new expenses had been thrown on the civil list. At present he must however unite with his estimate the charge for the Windsor establishment, and the other expenses to be supported by the civil list; which brought it up to the sum he had before mentioned of 1,339,495l. The income of the civil list (taking the exchequer fees at 48,000l., and the Scotch fees 10,000l.), would amount to 1,088,000l. This revenue, compared with the prospective estimate of 1,339,495l. left a deficit of 251,000l. But from this 170,000l. as he had before stated, ought in fairness to be deducted as growing out of those circumstances, consequent on the malady of his majesty.

He should now submit to the House the consideration of the best way in which this deficiency of 251,000l. could be supplied. It appeared to him there were two modes in which this object might be accomplished—by voting an addition to the revenues of the civil list, or by withdrawing from it certain charges which would relieve it to that extent. He was very strongly disposed to recommend the adoption of the latter course. He did not wish to augment the revenues of the civil list, and he should therefore propose, that it should be relieved from burthens to the amount he had already mentioned, so as to leave it only liable to those which its income was sufficient to support. The House would feel all the embarrassment which must arise from leaving on the civil list charges for public services which could not, from their nature, be fixed, and of which a correct estimate could rarely be framed. The income assigned to the civil list thus circumstanced, must be enormously too large at one time, and totally inadequate to the demands made upon it at another. He therefore thought the House would concur with him in the propriety of withdrawing from the civil list those charges which were most uncertain in their extent, and which were most liable to fluctuation; for it must be evident that great inconvenience necessarily resulted from such a variation in the expense of any one branch of the public service as had occurred in that department with which he had the honour to be connected, and in which an increase of 150,000l., or even 200,000l. might occur in the course of a single year. He should now state from what classes of the civil list he proposed to make deductions. In the first place, he proposed to take from the expense of the civil list the sum of 30,500l. which he should carry to the consolidated fund, and which formed part of the provisions made by parliament for the junior branches of the royal family. This would in every respect be a desirable arrangement, as some inconvenience and confusion would be avoided in paying the whole of these allowances out of the consolidated fund. Last year it had been in contemplation to take from the civil list the 100,000l. now charged on it for the Windsor establishment; but a saving having occurred under this head the idea had been abandoned; and the plan which he had now suggested, would, he thought, be preferred. This adopted, it would be seen that on the demise of any of those illustrious personages their income would fall into the consolidated fund, and not into the civil list; and should a demise of the Crown take place, the whole arrangement would again come under the consideration of parliament. He next proposed to relieve the civil list by lightening it of some of the charges of the fourth class, under the head of the lord Chamberlain's department, which were extremely fluctuating, and not capable of being tied down by any fixed estimate. He recommended that 10,000l. charged for the board of works, which from the nature of the repairs for various public buildings which occasionally became necessary, frequently caused the estimate to be greatly exceeded. He wished also to take 15,000l. allowed for plate to foreign ambassadors. Both these charges it would be seen were necessarily fluctuating in their nature, and were, therefore, better detached from the civil list, and submitted separately to the arrangement with respect to them which the House might think proper to adopt. From the seventh class he would withdraw part of the salaries and allowances to certain officers and persons amounting to 3,268l. He would next propose to take from it that extremely fluctuating charge which came under the head of occasional payments. On this item he should gain 197,000l., which he would take instead of the sum of 278,000l., for the charge incurred under the head of occasional payments had been estimated last year at 278,000l. This calculation had been founded on the average of the preceding two years and three-quarters; but that having been a period of war, now that we were at peace, a reduction might be expected, and he would therefore take it at the sum he had mentioned. The whole of the sums which he had detailed, amounted to 255,768l. He had stated 251,000l. to be the sum from which he wished to relieve the civil list. Gaining the 255,768l. which he had just mentioned, the charge of 1,339,495l., which was the amount of his estimate, would be reduced to 1,083,000l. The income of the civil list he had stated to be 1,088,727l., and there was therefore a surplus of between 4 and 5,000l. In the third class, under the head of foreign mi- nisters, he proposed to effect a saving of 16,400l.; and a further saving of 10,000l. on account of consuls. By the arrangement which he should recommend for the foreign ministers, they would be protected from that inequality of income of which they had now frequent reason to complain, and while furnished with ample means for the discharge of their public functions, they would no longer be menaced by that private ruin to which their fortunes had been heretofore exposed. Within the last year inquiries had been instituted to ascertain the amount of the fees received by the British consuls at the various ports at which they were stationed. The result of the investigation led him to entertain a hope that, under this head a saving of 10,000l. might be effected, making, with the 16,400l. withdrawn from the foreign ministers, a total of 26,400l.

He now came to the savings in the branches more immediately connected with the household; and here he must declare, that he had no wish to popularise his majesty's ministers, by making a meagre provision for the civil list that would not be found adequate to carrying it through in future years. The estimate of the fourth class of expenses, which last year was 254,000l. would this year be 234,000l. being a reduction of 20,000l. This saving was independent of the 22,000l. for the princess Charlotte, and would be effected in the lord steward's department, the lord chamberlain's, and the master of the horse. In the lord chamberlain's department for the board of works, he should propose 40,000l., and 10,000l. for casual labour. The expense of the lord chamberlain's department was heretofore 85,000l. The department of the master of the horse had been 45,000l. last year, exclusive of 10,000l. for the princess Charlotte. Instead of this, he should take 40,000l., and thus the whole amount of the 4th class of expenses, instead of 254,000l. would be 234,000l. He should wish to compare this with the expense of the 4th class, for the seven years up to 1811; during which, the expense of that class would be found to have amounted to 259,000l. per annum, and for the two years up to 1816 to 270,000l.; and though it would now be only 234,000l., he felt he owed some explanation to the House, lest any suspicion should arise on the subject. The grounds on which he thought the service of that class might be performed for that sum were, first, the fall in prices; (though in regard to them, a mean must be taken, as it would be equally erroneous to make the highest or the lowest the standard of his calculation); secondly, the expenditure of the princess Charlotte was withdrawn from this class; but it was not till last year that her expenses had been made the subject of a separate charge; latterly, too, there had been a saving in the furnishing of the apartments of the junior branches of the royal family. Another and more adequate ground was, that a considerable sum had been laid out in the equipment of the royal household, for plate, furniture, and other articles, which was an expense that would not recur. Then, what he greatly calculated on was, the relief from uncertain expenses, which had formerly so much disturbed the economy of different departments. On these grounds he did hope, that, in recommending an estimate 20,000l. less than the former, he was not in any way misleading the House, but presenting a fair and deliberate calculation. He must here add, that some of the departments had been relieved from issues in kind, which had been committed for pecuniary allowances.

He should now refer to the fifth branch which comprehended all the other expense of the sovereign's establishments, except the privy purse. In this branch there had been in the late years an increase, compared with the year 1811; and in the last year there had been an increase of 2,400l. on account of some compensations made to the officers of the household, especially to the royal footmen, who had received in money a commutation for their fees in consequence of an Address from that House. Of this class the expense had increased from 137,000l. to 140,000l. Joining these two classes together, which comprehended the whole of the household expenditure, their average expense in the seven years ending in 1811, would be found to amount to 378,000l. The estimate of the last year to 392,000l. The estimate of the present year only 370,000l. Thus the prospective expense of the whole household was 8,000l. a year less than it had been in the seven years up to 1811, which were the last years of his majesty's expenditure. It was also to be recollected, that out of the calamity of Windsor, had arisen an additional expenditure. Because it was not to be expected that his Royal Highness, when he assumed the exercise of the royal authority, should turn away all his own domestics, or that the menial servants of his majesty should be dismissed without some compensation. The old and faithful servants of his majesty, who were no longer required at Windsor, were provided for by a scale of allowances, which had given rise to the additional expense of this part of the civil list. This would serve to repel the calumnies which had too often been thrown out by the enemies of royalty, that there had been any lavish or criminal expenditure. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney) with whom he had had some discussion on this subject, would allow, even though he should disapprove of the exact amount of the royal expenditure, that the increase under this head was but as a drop of water, compared with the other branches of public service which were charged upon the civil list. Both sides of the House would agree that the splendor of the throne should not be reduced, while it was desirable that the income applied to that purpose should be well administered. He hoped, therefore, that there would, at the end of this discussion, be less difference of opinion than there had been in the preliminary and interlocutory debates; and that the subject being purged of the calumnies which had obscured it, the House might arrive at a satisfactory decision. It was a painful situation for the monarch of this country, who felt necessarily anxious to preserve the good opinion of the people, to be obliged to apply to parliament for grants on account of expenses which were vulgarly deemed personal. He should here give an explanation, which had been on a former occasion required by the right hon. gentleman as to the reason why the estimate of the lord chamberlain's department, in which, during the quarter ending January last, there had been an excess, had not, according to law, been laid before the House. During that quarter, there had been in progress an expenditure at Brighton, occasioned by the establishment of his Royal Highness's household at that place, respecting which there had arisen a difficulty. It arose from this, that Brighton was not a royal palace, but the private property of the Prince Regent; however, it was a royal residence; the lord steward's department was extended to that place, and in a more limited degree in the lord chamberlain's department, there was an expense connected with it for furniture sent there. It was therefore referred to the treasury, to con- sider whether that expense should be charged to the account of the household. On the whole, the treasury was of opinion that it should not be charged upon the civil list, but should be defrayed from the droits of admiralty. He should lay before the House the minute of the treasury, explaining that transaction, and also an account of the droits, and he hoped, when they considered the difficulty that operated on the mind of the lord chamberlain, and the advice given by the treasury, the papers would prove satisfactory.

He should now recur to the third class, which included the expenses of that office over which he had the honour to preside—the foreign department. The total amount for this department in the present estimate was 226,950l., which was a saving of about 26,000l. compared with the amount of last year's expenditure. It was necessary for him to state, that the estimate this year was framed with a view to the extent of our foreign relations, which was never greater than at present. It might therefore in the course of events (however improbable at present) happen, that our foreign connexions might become less extensive. If, by any circumstances, our continental relations should be narrowed, then of course, a saving would take place in this branch. In contemplation of the possibility of such an event, it was his intention to introduce into the Bill which he proposed to bring into the House, a clause providing that in case a saving should take place upon this branch, the sum so saved should be applied to increase the surplus of the consolidated fund. With respect to the fifth class of expense, there had been an arrangement made, which could not have been proposed without the express desire and sanction of the Prince Regent. As this class comprehended the salaries of offices and the expense occasioned by the creation of new appointments, it was that to which the jealousy of parliament might be especially pointed. Under this head, his royal highness had directed that not more than a certain sum of new expense should be added yearly till the increased expense was reduced to that at which it was supposed it could be permanently carried on. The yearly sum above which no new expense was to be added to it, was 500l.; and this restriction would continue till the 140,000l. to which it had been raised on account of the allowances to the King's servants was reduced to 125,000l. It was also in con- temptation (while some new offices had unavoidably grown up) to lay aside all that it was possible to dispense with, in order to cover any expenses which might be thought advisable.

The next head under which a very great change would be made for the better, was in the class of Occasional Payments. They had all hitherto been defrayed out of the civil list, and the nature of these expenses never came into view. They had of late risen very high on account of the expense of foreign missions. In the last year this class had risen to 340,684l., and in the year before it had been 320,000l. This sum, however large it appeared, had rather fallen short of than exceeded the expense under this head in the years 1801, 2, and 3, in one of which years it had risen to 374,000l. and in another was 366,000l. He proposed for the future that this branch of expense should not be defrayed out of the civil list, but should be brought yearly under the vigilance of parliament. He should submit a vote of a competent sum for these payments beforehand, and if this sum was exceeded, it would be necessary to justify the accounts before the House, and show how the excess had been incurred. This would give the House a most potent hold on that expenditure, which, above all others, afforded a latitude to the discretion of the Crown.

The next head of the arrangements of the bill which he had to propose related to the auditing the civil list accounts. The House would see the essential necessity and fundamental wisdom of bringing this expenditure under some direct control. To this end it was necessary to propose the creation of a new officer, who should act as the representative of the treasury in the superintendance of this expenditure. He did not wish to shake the authority of the heads of the several departments, for all that shook that authority also weakened their responsibility. This officer would have the means of observing any expenditure while it was going on, and making representations to the treasury on the subject of any thing which appeared like extravagance. It was evident, that unless the audit of accounts, preceded or closely followed payment, so as to check the breach of regulations, they were of little use. The audits at present were defective as to the quarter in which they were placed, and as to time. In the lord steward's depart- ment, the head of that department audited and passed the accounts. In the departments of the chamberlain and the master of the horse, the accounts were audited before the commissioners of public accounts, but by reason of the mass of business with which those commissioners were overwhelmed, the last civil list account which had passed them was that for 1810 or 1811, and that for 1812 had been but now sent in. This system was most defective, and introduced a laxity and delay in making up the accounts. The officer whom he proposed to appoint would have all facilities of communicating with the different departments, and of calling the officers before him, and inspecting the accounts. This would throw on the treasury a responsibility which could not now be supposed to rest on it. This arrangement would not interfere with the comforts or dignity of the sovereign, to which it was necessary, that the sum appropriated to provide for them, should be well administered.

This was a general description of his plan; which, he hoped, would be found consistent with that liberality that was due to the Crown, and with that economy which was called for by the country. By granting to the Crown a proper fund, unconnected with those expenses that ought not, in justice, to be charged on it, they would put this difficult and interesting subject on as satisfactory a footing as its nature would admit. The secretary of state for the foreign department would, under the new arrangement, be placed in a more arduous situation than he ever before stood in. His responsibility would be greatly increased, when, year after year, he would be obliged to justify to the House the necessity of the different expenses in his department—which were of a description that gentlemen looked on with a more jealous eye than almost any other.—The Crown had been most unfairly, unjustly, and, unfortunately for the country (for any odium cast on the head of the government must be injurious to the country), been accused of profusion and extravagance. From this charge it was his duty to rescue the sovereign, and he hoped he had succeeded. In the bill which he was about to move for leave to bring in, there were two or three clauses, which, as they went to alter the present system, as supported by act of parliament, it would be necessary, in the first instance, to submit to a committee. He therefore meant to print the bill, without these clauses, which should also be printed, in a separate shape, and thus gentlemen would be enabled to judge accurately of the nature of the measure. There would also be placed in the hands of gentlemen the documents necessary for a just understanding of the question. The first was, " An account showing the total amount of the proceeds received from the droits of the Crown and admiralty since the 1st of January 1814 to the latest period to which the same can be made up; together with an account of the sums paid out of the droits since the same date; specifying by whom received, and on what account." The second was, " An estimate of the probable future annual charge upon the civil list, and also a statement of the amount of charge from which it is proposed to relieve each class of the civil list, comparing the same with the estimate presented in the last session of parliament." The last paper was " A copy of the treasury minute, dated 23d February 1816." The noble lord then concluded with moving, " That leave be given to bring in a bill for the better regulation of the civil list."

expressed his determination, notwithstanding the measure introduced by the noble lord, to redeem the pledge he had given to the House, on the subject of the civil list. He should at present say little on the subject, as the question would, on Monday, be fully discussed. He would not then offer any objection to the bill, but he did not thereby pledge himself not to oppose it, if necessary, at a future period. He complained of the manner in which the noble lord introduced papers to the House. They never were produced till it was too late in the session to make use of them. A month ago he moved for an account of the droits of the Crown, which was ready since the 23rd of February, but it was not forthcoming until the noble lord had made his motion; and it then seemed to be produced for the purpose of creating embarrassment. The correspondence, relative to the estimate of the civil list expenditure, for the quarter ending in January last, was also ready on the 23rd of February; and now, for the first time, the noble lord thought fit to produce it. What answer did the noble lord make when called upon to produce this paper, which he admitted was ready on a former occasion? Why, forsooth, that he did not wish to present it till he could accompany it with an explanation of his own; and yet, now that he had presented it, his own explanation was perfectly unintelligible; and at last he was obliged to refer to the paper itself. Thus he (Mr. Tierney), after all the trouble and pains he had taken to make himself acquainted with the estimates upon this subject, had now his work to do over again, and had between this and Monday to devote himself, night and day, to examine the new estimates of the noble lord. Therefore he should be under the necessity of bespeaking the indulgence of the House, in consequence of the embarrassment to which he was subjected by the very extraordinary proceeding of the noble lord. But such a proceeding was not more inconvenient to him than to the House generally; for the information requisite to a correct understanding of the subject to which he thought it proper to call its attention, was thus wantonly withheld, until it became impossible fully to examine that information. The right hon. member concluded with observing, that his only object upon this occasion was that which the noble lord himself professed, namely, to discharge his duty to the country and to the Crown, by providing such an arrangement with regard to the civil list as should be suitable to the resources of the people and to the splendour of the Crown.

said, that of all questions that could be brought before the House, the civil list was that which it would be most unfair and improper to discuss in parts, instead of looking at it as a whole. There was certainly, therefore, no just ground for complaint on the part of the right hon. gentleman opposite, as to the rejection of those motions, the object of which was the partial discussion of this question. He was sure the House would acquit him of any intention of embarrassing the question. The right hon. gentleman, however, exaggerated when he talked of the disadvantage under which he laboured from the time at which the accounts were laid before the House; for he would venture to say, that when the right hon. gentleman looked at the accounts, he was so thoroughly master of the subject that he would understand them in ten minutes.

said, that he did not wish the House to adopt the mere assertions of the noble lord and himself. This was not the way in which the question ought to be argued. It was probable that he himself might speedily arrive at a knowledge of the facts; but he doubted very much whether he should be able to make the House understand them. There were very few gentlemen who had paid much attention to this intricate subject, and, from the course which had been pursued, he was afraid that the House would not come to the discussion with sufficient information.

rose to enter his protest against the doctrine of the noble lord, that the droits of the admiralty should be deemed the private property of the Crown, as well as against other principles advanced by the noble lord in the course of his long speech. Into the discussion of those principles, he however did not at present propose to enter. But as to the noble lord's expression, that the civil list expenditure had a tendency to outgrow the parliamentary allowance, he must observe, that according to his judgment and the decision of common sense, the only way to check that tendency—the only way to prevent those connected with the civil list from contracting debts—was to resolve not to pay them. This would be the effectual mode of guarding against any excess in the civil list, and ministers should be rendered responsible for the expenditure of the public money in this department. If ministers were called upon to exercise a due degree of vigilance upon this subject—if they were really responsible—then the House and the country would have some security against the recurrence of those excesses in the civil list, which had so frequently taken place, especially of late years. The hon. baronet said, he approved of the proposed separation of the provisions for the several members of the royal family from the other branches of the civil list expenditure. The noble lord had detailed the mistakes of several administrations with respect to the civil list—those mistakes involving, in fact, a violation of law. But while those mistakes were not visited by any punishment, what security could the country have, that the proposed law would not be also set at nought, if ministers were not rendered really responsible for its execution? If the provisions of what was called Mr. Burke's bill had been attended to, no excess would have accrued upon the civil list; and what assurance had the House or the country that the noble lord's bill would be a jot more efficient than that brought forward by Mr. Burke, unless ministers were bound to enforce its execution, and unless ministerial responsibility was rendered something more than a mere name? For otherwise it would be absurd to calculate upon the efficiency of any legislative measure upon this subject. The hon. baronet concluded with repeating his protest against the doctrine of the noble lord, that the droits of admiralty were not regarded as public property, as well as against other principles incidentally introduced by the noble lord in the course of his speech. He trusted that, when the matter came to be discussed, the House would give the utmost attention to a subject of such vital importance to the country.

Leave was then given to bring in the bill.

in presenting a petition from several traders and retail dealers, inhabiting the parishes of Shoreditch, Spital-fields and its neighbourhood, praying for a new coinage of silver, took occasion to express his disapprobation of the present silver currency, and to recommend, that the new silver currency should be fabricated not agreeably to the existing law, but agreeably to the plan proposed by lord Liverpool in 1805. By the existing law, a pound weight of silver was to be coined into 62 shillings, which weighed a pound; consequently, whenever the price of silver rose, a temptation was held out to melt the coinage. Thus government and individuals were both to suffer. He should therefore propose, that a new arrangement should be adopted, analogous to that which prevailed in all the other nations in Europe, and that in addition to some reduction of the comparative weight of the metal, a small seigniorage should be allowed. Thus government and individuals would be protected from suffering on any enhancement of the price of silver. The hon. gentleman concluded with vindicating the executive officers of the mint, from the slur which an hon. friend of his, not then in his place (Mr. Baring), thought proper to cast upon their skill. He had recently seen some specimens of a new coin from the mint which certainly did great credit to the persons who superintended that department; and he would take that opportunity of stating, that, in his opinion, those persons discharged the duties of their office with great honour to themselves and advantage to the country.