said, it was with extreme reluctance that he troubled the House on any subject personal to himself, but he found he had been held so responsible for a speech delivered by him in parliament, as to make him feel it his duty to take this notice of it. He alluded to memorials presented by the masters in chancery and six clerks to the lord chancellor of Ireland, containing very heavy complaints and charges against him on account of a speech which, as member of a parliamentary commission, and as a member of this House, he had been called on to make respecting the fees of officers in the courts of justice in Ireland. Had these memorials been confined to the eye of the lord chancellor, he should not have mentioned them in this place, but they had been printed and sent into extensive circulation, and, indeed, the memorial of the masters in chancery had been sent to him (Mr. Foster), for the first time in its printed form, without even the courtesy of previously inquiring from him, whether the expressions and statements at which these officers had taken so much offence, might not have originated in the errors of the newspaper reporters. It was not surprising, on a subject of such a nature, involving figures and technical details, that rates and sums should have been mistaken, that what he had said of one office should have been applied to another, and that statements should have been generalized which had been expressed with qualification He collected from several quotations in the memorial, that all this must have taken place in an unusual degree in some of the reports from which the masters had extracted their information. In fact he had said very little either of masters in chancery or six clerks, and absolutely nothing that would warrant them in charging him as they had done with having imputed to them corruption, or collusion, or fraud, or extortion. He trusted he had used no harsh, or illiberal expressions in speaking of any officer whatever; and as far as these officers were concerned, the whole tenour of his statement was to impress, that the unreasonable and disproportionate charges, which he must repeat existed in their offices, were the result of a long and gradual accumulation, both of rates of fees and of rules of practice, not imputable to the present officers, but the work of their predecessors: that for the purpose of their official emolument, in past, but not very distant times, orders of court had been perverted, and rules of practice had been invented, equally irreconcilable with the ends of justice and the suggestions of common reason. That the operation of taxation in the way it had been exercised, had proved itself to contain no sufficient principle either of prevention or of cure, and that the commissioners, of inquiry had felt it their most important duty to unravel the nature and history of those operations, and to submit the details of regulation by which they are of opinion a reform might be effected. I have only (continued the hon. member) to add my wish and request, that the House should not think of adopting any proceeding founded upon this statement, which I have felt it due to the parliamentary commission which I have the honour of holding to make in this place, and due to the dignity of this House, of which I have the honour to be a member, and due to the personal character of the officers who have been so far misrepresented, and for whom, as members of society, I have always felt perfect respect. I shall not repeat the expressions of this memorial, particularly of the concluding part of it, because it would be hardly consistent with the wish I have expressed, that the House should, at least for the present, take no further notice of it. I shall now merely add, that no private resentments of individuals, be they whom they may, nor any public denunciations by persons holding official situations, shall ever deter any member of our commission, nor I trust any member of this House from pursuing the straight course which lies before us for the correction of so enormous an evil as the unattainability of justice; and that while no man can regret more deeply than I do the necessity of making disclosures degrading to its administration, I feel that to be still a subordinate consideration when it becomes the necessary preliminary for effecting its reform.

asked if the House was to understand, that the hon. member did not intend to call on them to interfere respecting any breach of privilege.

replied that he should perhaps feel himself justified in so doing, but he did not wish to do it.

adverted to what had taken place on a former occasion respecting the imprisonment of some of the Patriots of Spain, when an address on the subject to the Prince Regent had been moved. It was then stated from the other side of the House, that nothing should be wanting in endeavours to procure their relief. He believed that no time was lost by ministers in making their application, and that several of these unfortunate persons had been released; but there was an instance of exception that appeared to him very particular—that of Don Diego Correa, who had himself with his two sons fought with the patriots of Spain against the invading French armies, and they were all three wounded. He knew that he had not been released with the others, and was still confined at Ceuta. What he now wished to know from the noble lord was, why an exception was made in the case of Correa?

said, that when the subject was last introduced, he had stated that he had made a renewed application respecting those who were then in custody. The success of that application he could not at that time communicate; but he had now the satisfaction of stating, that he had received dispatches from his majesty's ambassador at Madrid, informing him, that in consequence of the representations he had made to the Spanish court, the individual alluded to had been liberated.

said, that in rising to submit to the committee the general provisions which he had thought it necessary to make for the service of the year, he found it impossible to disguise the fact, that the proposition with which he should conclude, grew out of the circumstance of the House having judged it wise to take a course different from that which he had thought it his duty to recommend. The nature of the arrangements for the service of the year were necessarily much altered by the rejection of the property tax; but whatever pain he might feel that the House had determined against that line of conduct which in his opinion would have been most beneficial to the country, it was nevertheless his duty to bow to their decision, and to submit to them the ways and means which remained for meeting the supplies necessarily demanded for the service of the year. He should do this with the most sincere desire that the result might be such as to leave the House nothing to regret. He should explain the reasons which had influenced him in making those arrangements, which, under existing circumstances, he thought most advisable, and furnish that general view of the subject, which, indeed, without a dereliction of his duty he could not omit, and which, from the situation he had the honour to hold, he might, perhaps, be thought more competent to supply than any other person. In doing this, he had the satisfaction to know, that the statement he should have to submit to the committee would be upon the whole consolatory, as he should not be under the necessity of presenting to them any discouraging view of the state of public credit, and as the country was amply possessed of the means of meeting that expenditure which the public service demanded.

Before he proceeded to take a general view of the supplies and ways and means of the year, it would be proper for him to call the attention of the committee to the more immediate object of the resolutions which he should have the honour to submit to them, which arose out of a proposition communicated to him in a letter which he had received from the bank of England, and which had been laid before the House. For the course pursued in this instance two precedents had occurred within no great distance of time from each other. One was the proposition made by the bank, June 13, 1781, concerning the renewal of their charter, which had been referred to a committee of ways and means; and the other was a communication, dated Feb. 19, 1800, respecting the advance of a sum for the public service, connected with a similar proposition for the extension of the charter for a further term of year's, which had been disposed of in a similar way. The first resolution which he should have to move was, that the committee should approve and accept the proposition of the bank of England, for granting an advance of 3,000,000l. at three per cent. interest, accompanied with a condition, that the corporation should be permitted to extend their capital by an addition of one-fourth, or 25 per cent., with a further proposition that their promissory notes should continue to be received in all payments made on account of the public revenue. The permission which it was in contemplation to grant them, allowing them to augment their capital, which was at present fixed at about eleven millions and a half, to between 14 and 15,000,000l., was, in truth only allowing them to divide something less than 3,000,000l. of their own money among their proprietors, on condition that that they should advance the sum of 3,000,000l. for the public service, at an interest of three per cent. This was an advantage of considerable importance to the public. When it was necessary that money should be borrowed for the nation, it was not to be doubted that it was no inconsiderable benefit to be enabled to obtain so large a sum as 3,000,000l. paying only three per cent. interest. It was only necessary to consider whether this proposition was accompanied with any condition that could be viewed as objectionable. The principal subject for consideration was the proposed augmentation of the capital. To him, this appeared not only free from objection, but that which was in itself very desirable. Since the capital of the bank was fixed at eleven millions and a half, a great increase of bank paper had taken place; it was therefore proper that their capital should be increased, to give the holders of their notes additional security. Such an augmentation of their capital as they now of themselves proposed, he was of opinion, if not necessary, was at least as desirable for the public as for the bank. If this was, as he considered it to be, advantageous for the public, he did not see that any objection could be made to the mode in which the bank proposed to employ that sum. If the corporation had (as it had been said they had) a large sum of undivided profits in their hands, he did not know that they could do better than divide it among their proprietors on equitable terms, and add it to their capital.

The second condition which accompanied their proposition, was, that the bank promissory notes should continue to be received in payment at the exchequer. It was well known that for many years their notes had beeh received in payment, and he doubted not they would have continued to be so taken, if this arrangement had never been proposed. But it appeared to him it would be an advantage in the event of the resumption of cash payments, as well to the public as the bank, to guard against any thing like a run upon the latter immediately on its opening. Feeling this, he should certainly in any case have proposed that their notes should be received for a certain time after the resumption of cash payments. Such a measure he should have held to be necessary, to guard against any traffic on the part of the minor agents of the treasury (though perhaps this was little to be feared) being carried on of an improper nature, who, without such an enactment, might possibly have demanded payment in gold, for the purpose of making a profit, by turning it into paper whenever the exchanges might again become unfavourable. He did not know that any inconvenience would be likely to arise from receiving bank notes at the exchequer, till the present charter of the company should expire. If however, it should be desirable that they should cease to enjoy that privilege, we could put an end to it at any time, by the repayment of the advance. He himself thought there could be no objection to its continuance—for the remaining sixteen years of the charter; but if any should, contrary to his expectation, arise, the mode by repayment would, he believed, be found easy. If government, at some time should deem it expedient no longer to assist the circulation of the bank paper, it would be equitable that the security should exist till the bank was able to bring itself back to its former situation by the recovery of their loan. To him, then, the circumstances which he had stated fairly considered, the arrangement seemed to be as free from objection as any that could be submitted to parliament, or that could be devised by any minister of finance. It was to government an important consideration to obtain a loan of 3,000,000l., without resorting to the general money market at a time when it was most desirable to avoid all pressure upon it, and in the reduced rate of interest to be paid on the money so advanced, the public gained at least 60,000l. a year, exclusive of the still more important one of saving all addition to the capital of the debt beyond the money actually advanced. It offered to the bank security, and sanctioned an honourable extension of their capital, and this was highly beneficial to the proprietors. He thought it might further be observed, that what it was now proposed to sanction, was no more than that which the bank proprietors had a right to claim at some time or other: the only question therefore was as to the time, circumstances, and mode in which this should take place. On any of these grounds he did not think any fair objection could be urged to the arrangement, and the present seemed in fact as favourable a moment as could be chosen for granting that which at some future period they were entitled to claim.

He should now proceed to the more general statements of the supplies granted for the present year, and of those which would be still required. The first head was that of the army; 9,665,000l. was the amount for military service already sanctioned by the votes of parliament, from which was to be deducted 1,234,000l. for the troops in France, leaving 8,431,000l., including the expense for Ireland. The accounts of the extraordinary expenses of the army for the preceding year had been some time before the House, and a vote to provide for those of 1816 to the extent of about 1,500,000l. would be speedily proposed. The estimates of the commissariat, &c. were about 480,000l., from which 75,000l. for the army in France were to bededucted Taking the charges of the barracks at 178,000l., and the storekeepergeneral's department at 50,000l., the whole amount of extraordinary services would be 2,133,000l., and the total expense for the military service 10,564,000l. For the navy there had been voted altogether 10,114,000l., from which there was a deduction to be made of the proceeds from the sales of old stores, which amounted to 680,000l., leaving the charge at 9,434,000l. Deducting about 186,000l. for the ordnance service in France, the expense of the ordnance department would be 1,696,185l. The total original vote was 1,882,000l.—The pressure of public business in the House during the course of the present session, had prevented him from producing an account of the miscellaneous services. He could not just then state their amount precisely. He had on a former occasion supposed them at 2,000,000l. From what he had learned, he thought they would come to 2,500,000l. or near it. He should therefore assume it at two millions five hundred thousand pounds. To meet the India debt, and expenses incurred in India, a vote of 945,000l. would be proposed. This was necessary as the East India company had made pressing representations for repayment of the sums they had advanced. The advances in question had been made to forward those valuable services lately performed by our army in India in the conquest of the French and Dutch possessions. The total amount of the claim of the East India company, including the estimate of the present year had been 2,300,000l. Considerable payments had, however, been made by the government to the East India company, which were to be set against the sum he had mentioned. This done, there appeared to remain due to the company in January last, about a million and a half. A provision had been made for the sum of 500,000l. in the vote of credit for the last year, and this deducted from the debt due in January reduced the sum to be provided for in the present year to 945,000l., which it would be his duty on a future occasion, to bring more particularly under the consideration of the House. The general statement of the supply for the present year,compared with that for the preceding,was as follows:—

Having recapitulated the above items of supply, the right hon. gentleman next proceeded to state the separate charges of Great Britain. The first was for the payment of the part which had been demanded of the loyalty loan, which had been raised in 1797, amounting to 217,000l. A difference, he stated, might occur in these items, as well as in the miscellaneous services, between his present statement and the accounts previously laid before the House, owing to the same charges being placed under different heads, or to different dates being included in the papers. After the loyalty loan, and the debentures, and their interest, amounting to 807,000l., which were the two first items in the separate charges, he came to one not immediately under the consideration of the House, respecting which notice had been given of a motion by his right hon. friend (Mr. Wellesley Pole). He meant the motion for the grant of a sum of money on account of the new silver coinage. He did not propose to anticipate the able illustrations which the right hon. gentleman would be prepared to furnish on this subject, in what he might offer on this occasion. It would easily be seen that there was no small difficulty in determining what sum it would be proper to grant for this service. He (the chancellor of the exchequer) had for a time been very doubtful whether this was a charge which ought to be borne equally by England and Ireland, or whether it was one, which ought to fall on Great Britain only. Ultimately he had, however, considered, that as the whole of the silver now in circulation had been issued long before the Union, the greater part of it indeed at least a century, it was just that it should fall on Great Britain, and on no other part of the empire. It was not easy to say how much would be sufficient to meet the charge for the new coinage; but he proposed to take the sum of 500,000l. which he apprehended would suffice for so much at least of the charge as was likely to be incurred within the present year. None of that silver which was at present in circulation was intended to be received in exchange for that to be hereafter issued, which did not bear some appearance of having come from the mint, and this, as it would not include a very large proportion of the present currency, could not create a great expense, and at all events, a considerable time must elapse before the arrangements in contemplation could be carried into effect. The next charge was on account of a sum of 1,500,000l. in exchequer bills held by the bank. These had been originally issued for an advance made by the bank in 1800. The sum then advanced amounted to 3,000,000l., of which one half had been repaid during the peace of Amiens, and the remainder amounting to a million and a half, which had ever since been annually renewed in exchequer bills still remained, to be made good. The separate charges were altogether as follows:—

To meet these charges, he should propose the following

As, however, a considerable portion of the supplies for the service of the year yet remained to be voted, he proposed to leave a proportion of the ways and means, to the amount of 4,000,000l. to be also voted on a future day. He could wish to show how the surplus of the consolidated fund (which however he meant to reserve for future consideration) was made up. Whether in the present situation of the country, the taxes carried to it were likely to increase or diminish, it was for gentlemen to determine for themselves. By the latest accounts made out of the produce of the customs up to the 5th of April last—that part of them which was carried to the consolidated fund, amounted to very nearly 5,000,000l. their produce being 4,998,000l.

Deducting this sum from the income he had stated to be that of the consolidated fund, it would be seen there remained 3,652,000l. On this there was an arrear on the 5th of April, of 665,000l., so the total produce of the last year was about 2,998,000l.; but the diminution here to to be observed would be covered by the produce of the taxes laid on in the course of the present year, and, under all circumstances, he thought he might with reason estimate its amount at 3,000,000l. The excise duty, late a war duty, but which had during the present session been voted, for five years, had produced 3,688,000l. He estimated its produce in the present year at three millions and a half. He did not see why its produce might not be equal in the present year to what it had been in the last; but the allowances granted on account of the malt duty, made this a matter of doubtful calculation. The payments, however, not yet made good, would prevent any great falling off, and I he should, therefore, take it at 3,500,000l., subject, however, to some degree of uncertainty, on account of those repayments,: the amount of which must be considerable, and could not yet be ascertained. The next item was, the first advance from the I bank of 6,000,000l. The ordinary feature in the ways and means, the lottery, he took at 200,000l. This was somewhat uncertain, but he calculated its produce would be somewhere thereabouts. The next would be a most satisfactory, item to the House, it was the surplus grants of the year 1815, which amounted to no less than 5,663,000l. An account was on the table showing in what way this sum was made up. Some grants were commonly left unapplied at the end of a year; but it was generally found that against these, some services left unpaid were to be set, which frequently came nearly to the same amount, and left little or nothing to be carried to the ways and means of the next year; if indeed they did not leave a deficiency to be made good, which was much more frequently the case. The sum remaining in I hand on the 5th of January last, had, however, so greatly surpassed any thing left unapplied before, there was no reason to suppose the whole would be called for in any way. The grants unissued at the period he had mentioned, amounted to no less than 11,120,000l. It then became a question, how much of this sum it was necessary to reserve for payments due on account of services of the last year, and how much could be appropriated to the service of 1816. In the first instance, when the House met, he had stated the surplus grants were supposed to amount to about 3,000,00l. From the sum which he had stated to have originally remained in hand of 11,120,000l.there had been paid on

To this was to be added of the subsidies granted in the year and remaining undischarged 1,720,000l. The navy debt in January last had amounted to 3,600,000l. Of this it was thought desirable to allow the sum of 1,000,000l. to be paid out of the surplus grants. There had thus been paid—

Which sum he should-propose to vote as a provision for the service of the present year.

The next item was the advance of three millions which he had had the satisfaction to negociate with the bank of England, and the circumstances attendant on which he had already particularized. He had then to state that he had formed a plan for making a new arrangement with respect to the unclaimed dividends of the bank. From these he proposed to take the sum of 301,000l. This, however, was not the only advantage which the public would derive from his scheme. It appeared to him that the arrangements hitherto made, both by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Perceval, were in some respects imperfect. They had not contemplated the possible increase of the unclaimed dividends beyond a certain sum, and all above that sum they had been content should remain in the hands of the bank. It appeared to him better that a more extensive arrangement ought to be made, adapted to any probable variation of circumstances, that the bank should retain in its hands a certain sum, and all the balances above that sum be made applicable to the public service. On this principle he had taken 301,000l., which had remained in their hands up to the 5th of April, in addition to the advances made under the acts proposed by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Perceval. Thus 301,000l. however was not the only advantage which the nation would derive from his plan. It was not right that the bank should retain in their hands sums which it was not likely would be called for, and which, from the accidents of nature, or from the course of law, the owners might never be able to reclaim. He therefore thought such monies might be well paid over to the commissioners for the redemption of the national debt, to be by them applied to the liquidation of the public debt, subject to the future claims of the owners for restitution. He proposed that it should be arranged on this principle—that all stock on which no dividend was claimed for 10 years successively, should be paid over to the commissioners of the national debt, to be by them applied in the manner he had already described. A register of ail such payments he proposed should be kept both in the bank and at the office of the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, and this he thought would be better for the owners than even the present system, proverbially accurate as the bank was in all its transactions. The next item was rather of an extraordinary nature. It was one of 14.0,000l. made up of small balances remaining in the exchequer, the result of unapplied parliamentary grants of former years, and now amounting altogether to a sum not to be despised. There yet remained supplies to the amount of 2,500,000l. to be provided for, and this he proposed to do by means of an issue of exchequer bills to replace an equal amount of unfunded debt which would be paid off, and which in his original plan for the budget of the year he had proposed not to replace, but entirely to extinguish. These sums he had already stated as part of the separate charges of Great Britain, and they consisted of the remaining part of the bank advance of the year 1800, amounting to a million and a half, and of the debentures and loyalty loan paid off and amounting to a million and twenty-four thousand pounds.

He then recapitulated the whole of the supplies, and the ways and means by which they were to be met as above-stated. He did not mean to move for exchequer bills to meet the 2,500,000l. of which he had spoken, by themselves, he should include them in a larger vote. In February, a grant of 4,500,000l. in exchequer bills had been voted by the House to meet other bills to the same amount. To this might be added bills to the amount of 1,500,000l. issued on account of the bank—6,000,000l. to replace those on the vote of credit—and 1,000,000l. on account of debentures, making in the whole 13,000,000l., to replace which, he should propose an equal grant of 13,000,000l. in exchequer bills, the whole being, with the exception of the last 1,000,000l. intended to exchange against bills of the same description, and even the last were to meet securities of a similar nature. He had bad to meet a large defalcation to the amount of 8,500,000l. in the ways and means of the year, owing to the rejection of the property tax, and the relinquishment of the malt duties, and he should perhaps be asked in what way he proposed to meet this deficiency. He would therefore now explain in what way he had made good these eight millions and a half. In the first instance he had proposed to re-issue 2,500,000l. of exchequer bills, which otherwise would not have been necessary. The next means by which the deficiency was to be met, was furnished by the extra supply offered by the surplus grants. These, it would be remembered, when he proposed the renewal of the property tax, he had taken but at three millions. Since, it had fortunately been discovered, their amount had exceeded five million [Hear. hear!]. The proposed advance from the bank, which was the subject of the motion which he should make to day, furnished another portion of the: sum to be made good, and to this might be added four hundred and forty thousand pounds unclaimed dividends, and monies in the exchequer, and thus the 8,500,000l. would be covered. He certainly thought it would be desirable to avoid, if possible, any increase of the unfunded as well as funded debt. Had the system he recommended been adopted by the House, a great and rapid improvement of public credit, would, in his conviction, have been the consequence. He still most sincerely hoped this would take place though with less rapidity, and he reflected with much satisfaction, that of all the sums called for, there was only the 2,500,000l. in exchequer bills, that could be said to press on the money market or on the exchanges. He wished to state the whole amount of the sum borrowed, against that portion of the public debt which would be paid off in the present year, without distinguishing, for the present, the funded and the unfunded debt, especially as it might be questionable in which of those classes the advances from the bank, and particularly the first ought to be placed.

exclusive of what had been repaid within the last year. It would thus be seen that there was an exceeding of about 3,500,000l. over the sums borrowed for the service of the year. But it might be supposed, that when Ireland was taken into the ways and means, we should find our prospects much changed. For a few moments, however, he would take the liberty to trespass on the department of his right hon. friend, and to anticipate some few observations which he (Mr. Fitzgerald) would otherwise have had to bring forward in the able and satisfactory manner in which he always made such statements. For Ireland, his right hon. friend intended, this evening, to propose a grant of 1,700,000l. in treasury bills, in addition to which he farther intended to move for a grant of 1,200,000l. Irish, or 1,118,000l. English, making a total of 2,818,000l., and adding the sum which he had stated was to be borrowed for England of 11,500,000l., would make a grand total of 14,318,000l. But against this was to be set in addition to the sums he had before mentioned, the Irish sinking fund, which he believed amounted to about 2,300,000l., and finally, the reduction he showed would be after all little less than 3,000,000l. of the united debt of the two kingdoms.—This, he trusted, would be found a most satisfactory view. He believed it had very seldom occured that it had been found practicable to reduce the public debt immediately after the close of a long war, before the nation had properly got to its peace establishment. Instead of being able to do this, it had commonly been necessary to call for large loans in the first year of peace. Under such circumstances, though the state of the country was not every thing he could wish, he was so far from feeling apprehension, that he could see nothing to fear, if proper measures were pursued, and every thing to hope, from the wisdom, firmness, and moderation of parliament. He had now to explain the manner in which he proposed to pay the interest of the money borrowed for the service of the year. The charge incurred by the first advance of the bank was for interest 240,000l. a year, and for sinking fund 60,000l., making together 300,000l,. the second would require for interest 90,000l., and for sinking fund 30,000l. together 120,000l., total 420,000l., of this only 120,000l. would be charged on the consolidated fund. The soap tax would produce about 200,000l., and the new duties on butter and cheese about 100,000l., if the trade continued as at present, or allowing for its falling off about 50 or 60,000l. He further had it in contemplation to submit to the consideration of the House, a new arrangement with respect, to the draw-backs on sugar, the produce of which,-added to the 250 or 260,000l., which he calculated on deriving from the sources already mentioned, would be more than enough to provide for the charge created by the interest on money borrowed. The right hon. gentleman concluded with moving the first of the following Resolutions:

1,"That the proposal of the governor and company of the bank of England, 'That, in consideration of the advance of three millions sterling for the public service, in the manner, and upon the terms and conditions hereinafter mentioned, the said, governor and company be authorized and empowered by parliament to increase their capital stock, which now consists of 11,642,400l. to 14,553,000l.; and that the proposed increase of 2,910,600l. be appropriated amongst the proprietors of bank stock at the rate of 25l. for every 100l. of bank stock which they respectively held on the 23d day of May 1816; and that, until repayment to the said governor and company of the said sum of three millions, the promissory notes of the said governor and company expressed to be payable to bearer on demand, shall be received in payment of all sums of money which now are or shall become payable for any part of the public revenue, and shall be accepted by the collectors, receivers, and other officers of the revenue authorized to receive the same I if offered to be so paid, fractional parts of twenty shillings only excepted:—That, in consideration of the above proposed increase of the capital of bank stock, and of the notes of the said governor and company being received in payment of every branch of the public revenue as I aforesaid, the said governor and company are willing to advance the sum of three millions sterling for the public service, to be paid on such days during the present year, and in such manner, as parliament shall direct and appoint; the repayment thereof to be secured, with interest at the rate of 3 per cent. per annum, payable annually, and to be repaid at such period as parliament shall direct and appoint, not beyond the 1st day of August 1833, and to be charged and chargeable upon, and to be repaid out of the consolidated fund, unless otherwise provided for by parliament,' be accepted.

2" That, towards raising the supply granted to his majesty, there be issued and applied the sum of three millions, to beadvanced by the governor and company of the bank of England, in pursuance of the said proposal.

3." That, towards raising the supply granted to his majesty, there be issued and applied the sum of 5,663,755l., being the surplus of the grants for the year 1815.

4. " That, towards raising the supply granted to his majesty, there be applied the sum of 599,916l. 3s. 6d., being fifteen seventeenth parts of the sum of 679,905l. arisen from the sale of old naval and victualling stores.

5." That, towards raising the supply granted to his majesty, such part of the balance remaining in the hands of the governor and company of the bank of England, for the payment of dividends on the public debt, be advanced, from time to time, for the service of the public, provided that if, at any time, the said balance shall be reduced to a less sum than 100,000l., then so much of the monies advanced by the said governor and company thall be repaid to them as shall be equal to the sum by which the said balance shall be less than the sum of 100,000l.

6." That towards making good the supply granted to his majesty, there be issued and applied the sum of 43,247l. 3s. 11½, which have been issued to sundry persons at the receipt of his majesty's exchequer, prior to the 5th day of January 1810, and which, not having been paid, remain as out-cash in the chests of the four tellers of the said exchequer.

7." That, towards making good the supply granted to his majesty, there be issued and applied the sum of 13,205l. 5s. 3d½ remaining in the receipt of his majesty's exchequer on the 5th of January 1816 for payment of certain annuities for terms of years which expired annis 1792, 1805, 1806, and 1807.

8." That, towards making good the supply granted to his majesty, there be issued and applied the sum of 6,326l, 0s 9d¼ remaining in the receipt of his majesty's exchequer on the 5th of July 1815, and charged upon the consolidated fund for services which cannot now be claimed.

9." That, towards making good the supply granted to his majesty, there be issued and applied the sum of 72,973, 15s. 3d remaining in the receipt of his majesty's exchequer on the 5th of January 1816, on the funds for payment of annuities on lives granted annis 1745, 1746, 1757, 1778 and 1779, on which the lives have expired since the 5th of January 1802.

10." That, towards raising the supply granted to his majesty, there be issued and applied the sum of 6,545l, 5s. 4d, being the amount of money paid by the receivers general of the land tax to the governor and company of the bank of England on account of the pay-master general of his majesty's forces, in pursuance of an act of the 37th year of the reign of his present majesty, for raising men for the army and navy.

11." That, towards raising the supply granted to his majesty the sum of thirteen millions be raised by exchequer bills for the service of Great Britain.

12." That towards raising the supply granted to his majesty, the sum of 1,200,000l. Irish currency, be raised by treasury bills for the service of Ireland for the year 1816.

13." That, towards raising the supply granted to his majesty there be applied for the service of Ireland the sum of 79,985l. 16s. 6d., arisen from the sale of old naval and victualling stores."

The first Resolution being put,

rose to state the supply and ways and means for the service of Ireland. He said, he felt it to be unnecessary to trespass on the committee at any length. The circumstances of the finances of Ireland had been gone into so recently, and he had himself received so patient a hearing, and so much indulgence when he submitted the late resolutions to the House, that he should not now be justified in going over the same ground. He should briefly state the amount of the supply which was required for the year 1816, and the ways and means by which he should propose to parliament to make provision for it. It would be necessary only to advert shortly to those principles which he had endeavoured to illustrate oh a preceding evening, and though the measures which he had declared it to be his intention to recur to as a source of present supply had not yet received the express approbation of the House, yet the liberal view which had been taken of the whole of our financial situation, and of the proceedings consequent upon it, would justify him, he trusted, in not proposing any new taxes in aid of the services of the present year. The estimated quota of contribution for the year 1816 was 3,145,656l. British, as had just been stated by his right hon. friend, making in Irish currency the sum of 3,407,794l.; the charge for interest and sinking fund on the present debt is 6,826,730l. including management, making the total supplies 10,234,524l. The state of the consolidated fund was as follows: the surplus balance in the exchequer at the 5th January, was 1,448,086l., and there was remaining of loan, raised in Great Britain for the service of the last year, 2,622,641l. British, being in Irish currency 2,841,194l.; a total sum of 4,289,280l. From this he was to deduct arrears due on that day. The arrear of contribution for 1815, 2,942,280l. British, being 3,187,470l Irish: the outstanding treasury bills and lottery prizes, 28,876l., and for inland navigations, and the expenses of the office for the public records, 81,364l., the total of the arrears was 3,297,710l., which, deducted from 4,289,280l., leaves a balance of 991,570l

Having recapitulated the supply, he had to state the ways and means. The surplus of the consolidated fund as appeared above, 991,570l.; the produce of the revenue he should only estimate at 6,000,000l.; one-third of the profit on lotteries which Ireland was entitled to receive, 100,000l.; repayment of sums paid by Ireland for naval and military services being advanced out of the revenue of the last year, 111,960l. His right hon. friend had before stated the loan on treasury bills for which an act has passed both Houses of parliament, of 1,700,000l British, making 1,841,666l. Irish, and that a further loan on treasury bills would be required to be issued in the present year for the sum of 1,200,000l., being a total of ways and means of 10,245,196l. to meet the supply of 10,234,524l.

The committee were aware of the reduction of the revenue in consequence of the repeal of that portion of the malt duty in Ireland which corresponded with the late war duty in Great Britain: it was only what the act of union had prescribed: but as a measure of relief, sensibly as it might be felt in this country, it would not be less felt in that where the example had been followed. He had always regretted the necessity of augmenting the malt duty; but it was to be remembered, that he had never bad but a choice of difficulties. The deduction from the revenue, including the repayment of duty on stock, in the hands both of distillers and maltsters would be, he feared, 300,000l.; other small duties repealed would make a total diminution in the revenue of 350,000l., and when the committee recollected that the whole of the nett payments into the exchequer in the last year amounted to 5,845,845l., he was sure he should not be charged with estimating the annual produce of the revenue too loose when he took it at 6,000,000l., he feared rather that he should be accused of an excessive estimate. He thought himself grounded, however, in hoping for what must be the increase of more than half a million from that improved system of collection which was visible in every department, and for which the chiefs of departments deserved the greatest praise—[Hear, hear;]. He could not better excite that industry, or stimulate that exertion than by showing to the different boards that parliament looked to them to supply, by their exertions, the necessity of fresh taxation, and he knew that he did not reckon on their exertions in vain. There was no principle more important to be kept in view, particularly in Ireland, than that it was better to collect your old taxes well, than to delude the public by suggesting new and unproductive imposts. He did not found his estimate of revenue solely on a vague expectation of its produce; the assessments principally of the inland taxes had been formed upon a more correct system, and in no branch of our revenue had a collection been more improved. He expected in the present year a great increase from those duties, and without referring to the excise revenue, or to those disputed questions connected with the distillery, which he purposely avoided, because they were likely to become the topics of discussion at another and a more convenient time; it must be obvious to every man that if the practice of illicit distillation would be checked in some degree (he was not sanguine enough to hope for its immediate extinction) the excise revenue would become the main source of our contribution. He did not despair either, that the internal difficulties of Ireland would press so heavy as in the last year, a year of sudden and unexampled distress. That distress was easily to be traced in the diminished consumption of some of the most productive articles, not only in our excise but in our customs also. He hoped that our horizon was brightening a little, and that he might be justified in the estimate of six millions which he had assumed. The produce, besides, of the quarter to the 5th April last had considerably exceeded the corresponding period in the preceding year.—He had omitted to refer to stamps; which he ought not, as the increase had been considerable in that branch of the revenue.

The right hon. gentleman proceeded to state the charge on the treasury bills to be issued. Two acts had already passed, authorizing different issues; the one was, however, to supply 2,470,000l. in bills payable within this year, and the charge for which is included in the annual charge of the Irish debt; that sum indeed made almost the whole amount of the unfunded debt of Ireland; of course, he was not required to make any further provision for that issue. By the other act there was a grant of 1,700,000l., and he should to-night submit a resolution for 1,200,000l., besides, the whole making in Irish currency, 3,041,666l., the interest of which, at 5 per cent., with a sinking fund of one per cent. would create a charge of 182,500l. annually. When the committee recollected that Ireland had abstained from encroaching on her sinking fund, and called to mind also the relative proportions of the sinking funds of Great Britain and of Ireland, as well as those which they bore to the respective capital of their common debts, they would, he trusted, approve of provision being made for the above charge, by cancelling a certain portion of stock, now standing in the names of the commissioners in Ireland for the redemption of the national debt. In England the principle had been acted on. If it should meet the approbation of the committee, he should have the honour to state the details more particularly on a future day. The amount of capital redeemed in Ireland, was, in 5 per cents., 1,852,072l., in 4 per cents., 294,500l. In 3½ per cents., 3,745,958l. making in all, 7,892,330l. The whole of the 5 and 4 per cent. stock he should propose to cancel, and a portion of that in the 3½ per cents., amounting to 2,231,914l. The dividends upon these stocks he had calculated as yielding 182,500l., sufficient to cover the whole charge of interest and sinking fund created by the loans of the present year, which he had stated. It would be right that this should be made applicable to the same charge whenever the stock thus created became a part of the funded debt. He might be permitted to observe, that the capital thus cancelled was much less than that existing in Ireland when the sinking fund was first established there. The amount of debt then in Ireland (in the year 1797) being 5,825,000l. The annual income of the sinking fund applicable in Ireland will still remain more than sufficient for the debt it has to act upon there, the whole income of it being at present 736,430l. He had directed calculations to be made of the proportion which the sinking fund of Ireland would bear to the debt of Ireland after this deduction had been made. He had on a former night ventured to promise that we should still bring to the consolidated revenues, a sinking fund, richer than that of Great Britain in proportion to our respective debts. He believed he had stated that it would remain as 1 to 54, he was more than borne out by the calculation since made. He trusted that parliament would concur with him in this view of the measure to be taken: indeed, he saw no alternative. They would recollect how little proportion it bore to the demands made by England on her sinking fund in the last three years, and that during that period, though in the year 1811 England had acquiesced in the declared inability of Ireland to contribute by fresh taxes to the public exigency, and that every effort has since been made by Ireland to meet her difficulties, and that she now applies to this resource only when the resources of taxation are exhausted. If England has cancelled 250,000,000l., he would not say that she had not purchased a right to do it by the sacrifices she had continued to make, and if he now recurred to the same means of relief, it was known to those with whom he had acted, and indeed he hoped that the financial efforts which had been made would prove that he had not been eager to recur to it. He felt that it was unnecessary to dwell longer upon this or any other points, when he recollected the ample discussion which most of the topics received on a former night, and which many of them probably would still receive while the bills for consolidating the debts and revenues of both countries were in progress through parliament.

said, he did not rise to call the attention of the committee to the melancholy prospect presented by the real state of the revenue of the country as compared with its expenditure, since this subject would be better discussed tomorrow, when an hon. and learned friend of his brought forward his financial resolutions. But he congratulated the committee that the House, in putting an end to the property tax, had not brought on the finances of the country, all those evils which ministers had repeatedly, predicted its rejection would occasion. He congratulated the committee that the minister now found himself able to raise the ways and means in a way which appeared satisfactory to the House, and light and easy to the country. It was satisfactory, that by resolutely persevering in opposition to the property-tax, and by totally disregarding all the predictions and entreaties of the minister, we had now even his testimony in favour of an opinion that there was no necessity for it. It was also peculiarly satisfactory, that after he and his friends had been so frequently charged with attempting to shake the credit of the bank of England, that establishment, amidst all its trepidation, from such alleged attacks, was still in a capacity to lend government 9 millions in one year, and at the same time to add 3 millions to its capital, and to increase its credit. These were most satisfactory considerations, and afforded proofs of the solidity of the resources of the country, and especially of that favourite institution the bank, seeing that its credit and capital were both augmented, even in spite of the attacks which he and his friends were alleged to have made upon it. These were subjects of congratulation which he could not refrain from stating.

called the attention of the House to the new arrangement proposed with the bank. That company had agreed to lend 3 millions at 3 per cent., and the government, on the other hand, had agreed to recommend to parliament to allow the bank of England to increase its capital by 2,900,000l. He wished to know, in case the House should admit one part of the bargain and reject the other, whether the right hon. gentleman could accept or obtain his three millions for the service of the year. He did not believe it. The House were therefore not called to vote unshackled on this matter, but were required to accede to an act which would give an immense augmentation to the bank. If the right hon. gentleman had displayed his whole view of the question respecting his arrangements with the bank at once, he doubted whether the House would have sanctioned the bill which had already passed respecting the advance of six millions. On this augmentation of capital, the bank would pay themselves 10 per cent.; which, with the 3 per cent. allowed by government, would make 13 per . cent. He was confident that if the negociation had been properly conducted, the proposed addition to the capital would have been accepted, and the 3 per cent. saved to the country. As to bank paper being taken in payment of certain debts, even after the restrictions should have expired, he did not approve that one set of creditors should be paid in notes and the other in cash.

defended the fairness of the transaction on the part of the bank. It must be quite obvious, he thought, that the bank might with perfect fairness have divided the three millions of surplus profits as a bonus among its proprietors: but it had pursued another course, by which it had at once given additional security to its credit, and materially facilitated the financial arrangements of the current year. Nothing, he thought, could well be clearer to persons at all conversant with such subjects, than the financial statement of the chancellor of the exchequer. He was surprised that the chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland had not stated the principles on which he proposed to take so much from the sinking fund of that country. It was true that a similar proceeding had taken place in this country, but then the system and the principles were stated on which it was recommended for adoption. He must confess, however, that the statement of the chancellor of the exchequer was not quite so satisfactory to him as it appeared to be to his right hon. friend, whose, mode of viewing the budget of the year was a little calculated to mislead the country as to the extent of its resources. It must be obvious that a very small portion of the income of the year could be calculated as any thing like permanent income. To meet the expenditure of twenty-seven millions, the chancellor of the exchequer had shown nothing but an income of permanent taxes to the amount of 9,700,000l.; all the rest was made up of temporary resources, which could not be expected to recur. This was a state of things that gave him little satisfaction, and on which he could not congratulate the country. He even feared that this sum of 9,700,000l. might not be forthcoming in another year: this depended entirely on the circumstance whether the produce of the taxes should support itself or not. But in a revenue amounting to thirty millions altogether, he should not be surprised, considering the state, of the Country, to find it on the decline. He was apprehensive, indeed, from what he had heard, that the produce of the customs had fallen off much since the accounts of the last quarter were made up. The general distress and reduction of establishments made him apprehensive that his suspicions would prove too well founded; so that, if the revenue fell off only one fifth, this would at once make away with the whole of the disposable income of nine millions. But even if the result were otherwise, where were we to look in another year for the casual resources which this year enabled us to meet ail expenditure of twenty-seven millions? The chancellor of the exchequer had told us that it was altogether unprecedented in the first year of peace for the country to have a surplus of unexpended supplies to the amount of 5,400,0002. This, however, proceeded entirely from the immensity of supplies voted last year, to the amount of 120 millions, and the rapid termination of the war, which was ended almost before we were aware of its commencement. Under such circumstances, he should have expected that the surplus would have been much larger; its smallness appeared extraordinary.

said, that so far was he from giving credit to the right hon. gentleman for his flourishing statement, he had distinctly stated that he would abstain from commenting on the melancholy and calamitous view which he had given the House of the finances of the country, seeing that that subject would best come before parliament on the motion of his hon. and learned friend which stood for to-morrow.

begged, for about the fiftieth time, to tell the right hon. gentlemen opposite that the present Was not the permanent peace establishment. He was desirous of saying a few words in reply to what had fallen from an hon. gentleman (Mr. Baring), who seemed to be apprehensive lest the House should have taken too sanguine a view of the finances of the country. The hon. gentleman seemed to run into the old fallacy of confounding the expenditure of the present year with a permanent peace expenditure. Besides, it must be evident that the supplies which he had stated comprehended very large sums which were not likely to occur again. It must be Satisfactory to learn, that even giving up the property-tax, still the country was able to pay off 3,000,000. more debt than it contracted in the year. The hon. gentleman had complained that the surplus from last year was much smaller than he expected, but it should be recollected, that in the same year not less than 20 millions of unfunded debt were paid off, and still the surplus amounted to five millions and a half for the supply of the present. He confessed he did think the treasury were entitled to some credit for this. It was true the noble lord at the head of the treasury and himself were assisted by a most efficient staff of secretaries. He had also to pay a due tribute of praise to the commissary in chief, whose indefatigable exertions had, he believed, saved the country millions. Part of the silver, to the amount of 600,000l., which was now preparing for coinage, was provided for the use of the army in France, and had not been expended.

said, his observations applied to the revenue of the country, which he felt persuaded would diminish rather than increase in the course of the current year.

said, the right hon. gentleman had stated, that this was about the fiftieth time he had mentioned that this was not the peace establishment; but it was also about the fiftieth time that he had asked, what was the peace establishment? He firmly believed that the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues had no intention of bringing down the peace establishment below 22,000,000l. a year. The observations of his hon. friend deserved the most serious consideration, and he was surprised that the right hon. gentleman should venture to tell them that this was a mere temporary supply. In making that statement, he was wilfully deceiving the public, as he must know that there were 14½ millions that could not arise again. He had contrived to scrape up all the odds and ends, such as the unclaimed dividends, and other items of a similar nature; but it could not be concealed, that the prospect of the country was frightful and alarming. The right hon. gentleman, however, had told them that they were in a most flourishing state; but he was sure that the consolidated fund would not produce any thing like what was calculated for the present year. Did the chancellor of the exchequer mean to state seriously and soberly, that the war duties could be raised from year to year? The fact was, that the revenue had been declining, and he was at issue with the right hon. gentleman on that point. The state-meat which he had given in, up to the 5th of April, 1816, included a mass of taxes imposed in 1815, and which ought to be excluded. The amount of the consolidated fund in 1815 was 35,734,000l.; in 1816 it was 39,439,000l. This was an apparent increase, but it arose from certain new taxes, such as the stamps and the post-office, which formed a total of 900,000l. To this, however, must be added the amount of the stamp duties, ending on the 5th of April last, of which no account had been yet laid before the House. With respect to the war-duties, on the 5th of April 1815, they amounted to 9,939,000l.; on the 5th of April this year, they were 9,491,000l. This, he repeated, was an apparent increase; but the total falling off of the revenue in the last year amounted to no less a sum than 648,000l. Now, the right hon. gentleman might say what he pleased as to the flourishing state of our finances; but he (Mr. Tierney) trusted, he possessed common sense on the subject, and he was certain that the revenue could not be kept up. The war duties were never designed to be continued in peace, and it was a delusion on the country to be saying, the state of the revenue is such, that you can avail yourselves of a surplus of the consolidated fund, amounting to 3,000,000l. The excise was falling considerably, and would continue to fall much lower. Could any body believe, when the landed proprietor received no rents, and the merchant was unable to find a market for his goods, that the revenue could go on The last war had been called a war of commercial advantage: but the arrival of peace was the arrival of a moment of alarm. He was surprised to hear the chancellor of the exchequer call on them to vote that the country was in a flourishing state, and that there was nothing to make them despond. When the right hon. gentleman said that we ought not to despond, he agreed with him on the general principle; but it was impossible to loot at the situation of our affairs, and not feel the utmost anxiety and alarm. The right hon. gentleman asked the House to rely on his wisdom to protect them against future difficulties; but he did not believe that the right hon. gentleman could go through the next year. He had told them that he had borrowed 9,000,000l. of the bank; but there was so much hocus pocus in his statement that they could hardly tell what he had borrowed. Did he mean to say, that his hon. friend was wrong in stating, that not more than 9,000,000l. could be applied to the public service next year? Was not this an alarming prospect for the country? Was it not a melancholy consideration that in a time of peace we were to go on from year to year without decreasing our debt? He did not profess to have any remedy for this evil; but what he said was, that the House of Commons had not done its duty, by not having turned its attention to the real state of the finances of the country. A very fair, and he believed a very correct, statement had been given with respect to Ireland; but why had not the same been done with respect to England? Why did not the right hon. gentleman face his difficulties manfully? But, no: the chancellor of the exchequer said, only enable me to get over my present embarrassments, and rely on me for the future. The right hon. gentleman had brought into his account 5,663,755l. as the surplus grants of last year; but what had become of the residue? He had given the right hon. gentleman great credit for asking for the sum which parliament voted, but he did not give him equal credit for getting rid of it. The war had lasted only a month, and though our troops had gained immortal honour, that was no answer, when he asked what had become of the money. They were merely told, however, that there were five millions and a half of surplus, and in addition to that, the bank of England advanced nine millions. The bank had now lent government 12 millions, but he did not like that we should be indebted to this amount in the shape of loan. He believed that all this was for the sake of continuing the bank restriction; and his firm conviction was, that the restriction would go on beyond the two years. As to returning to payments in specie, he had heard nothing else for the last fifteen years. The bank had always contrived to keep the chancellor of the exchequer under their thumb: and now when they knew that he could not repay them, they had secured the renewal of their charter. The governors had certainly shown very great dexterity in their arrangements with the right hon. gentleman: neither Jonas nor Breslaw, nor any of those people, could have displayed more cunning. They made four distinct propositions; they were to have interest and no interest; they were to receive a bonus and no bonus. These tricks had completely deceived the right hon. gentleman; but what was the consequence? If the revenue did not increase, we should have to raise 12 millions in some way or other; or, in the course of another year, we must have a loan of 21 millions. We were thus left to the mercy of the bank, and we knew how far their kindness extended; they were merciful to the degree between 3 per cent. and 5 per cent., and would lend us nothing without the renewal of their charter. From this view of our financial situation, would any one say that the country was in a flourishing state? There was nothing that could hold out any consolation whatever, unless parliament would oblige ministers to confine their expenditure within the revenue. He was quite sure that it would require a much greater talent of public speaking than the right hon. gentleman possessed, to convince the House that this was not an alarming state of the country.

appealed to the House, whether he had in any degree expressed despondency at the situation of the country, or showed any disposition to shrink from the difficulty of the times. It was his greatest satisfaction that, under all the circumstances of the country, he had been enabled to effect a loan on such terms, that, after all that had been said, no solid objection had been made to it. It was true that this year only 3,000,00l. of the public debt could be redeemed; but the House would recollect, that if the plan which he had first recommended had been adopted, about 12,000,000l. would have been redeemed. The right hon. gentleman had endeavoured to prove, that, although there was an apparent increase in the revenue this year, yet that in fact there was a diminution, because the produce of the taxes imposed during the last session ought to be deducted That such a deduction ought to be made was perfectly well-founded, and it amounted to about 900,000l. By deducting this sum from the produce of last year's revenue it would give an apparent excess of the produce of the preceding year to the amount of about 200,000l. But then the right hon. gentleman forgot to add the amount of the taxes which had expired during the last year, which had been available in the preceding year, and these amounted to 830,000l. So that the right hon. gentleman after all was completely wrong, as instead of a diminution of the produce of last year compared with that of the preceding, there was an increase of 600,000l. or 800,000l.

contended, that the revenue of Ireland might be greatly augmented, if a new system of collection were adopted. Considering the gross and nett amount of revenue, it was quite clear that there was very great room for improvement. The nett revenue was 5,700,000l. per annum; the gross revenue 7,500,000l., making a difference, for the collection, of upwards of 1,500,000l. The customs were collected at the rate of 16 per cent., while in England their collection did not require more than 5 per cent. On the post-office revenue the expense of collection was not less than 56 per cent. Of 230,000l. which the post-office duties last year produced, only 79,000l. were paid into the exchequer. In the customs, the most extravagant expense was also apparent, particularly with reference to the law proceedings which it was found necessary to institute, from time to time. With regard to distillation, if that branch of the revenue could be reformed, it would produce not less than 1,200,000l. per annum. If a proper control were effected, over the excise officers, and if gentlemen of property would assist the collection of the revenue in that department, a great advantage would be effected. There appeared to him to be a very great necessity for introducing a total change in the mode of appointing the subordinate officers who were employed in the collection of the excise. Here the different boards elected their own officers, but in Ireland they were uniformly appointed by the lord lieutenant. The boards in that country had no influence whatever. The hon. baronet expressed his firm conviction, that the expenses now incurred, in consequence of the disturbed state of Ireland, might all be saved, if proper means of conciliation were adopted. At present a force of near 30,000 men was kept up in that country, which by proper management might be dispensed with. The concession of the Catholic claims would, in the course of a very short time, allay the ferment which at present occasioned so much mischief there.—But so long as the House refused to consider the Catholic question, he feared that the country would be put to the expense of two or three millions a year, for the support of a military force. He was also of opinion, that the sum of 100,000l. per anuum, which the establishment of the lord lieutenant cost, might be saved to the public. He could see no reason why Ireland could not be governed like any other part of the British empire, without incurring such an enormous expense.

thought the revenue would be greatly increased in Ireland, if the control over it should cease to be the subject of political interference. The exercise of government influence with respect to the various appointments, was the source of endless loss and vexation. He then complained that of late years the taxes had been paid chiefly out of the capital of the country—a system every where ruinous, but more especially to Ireland, who was already deprived of the benefit of so much of her capital by the residence of absentees in this country.

read a letter from Ireland in corroboration of sir H. Parnell's statement. It related to the great amount of law expenses in Crown prosecutions; and stated, that although in one circuit, nine counsel had been employed, at an expense of three guineas each, to transport one Whiteboy, yet the business was shifted from one to the other, and in fact, very badly done; insomuch, that very lately the attorney-general had been obliged to send down serjeant Joy in addition, on a prosecution for a libel. The expenses were very great in that country, and he knew an individual who paid a fine of 50l. and 120l. costs, on a business that never came to trial, and where there were no fees to counsel. This sum was paid by the party. He would leave it to the House to judge what the expense would have been had the matter come to trial, and the costs been paid by the country.

complained of the course which the hon. member who spoke last had taken—not alone of the introduction of matter so irrelevant—not only of bringing in the discussion of legal prosecutions and their attendant expense in a question of supply; for the hon. gentleman, perhaps, himself was not aware, that they were not prosecutions connected with the revenue. One of those he had stated was a case of libel; and how did the hon. gentleman introduce them? In his anonymous letter [" not anonymous," said Mr, Smith, across the House]—then his correspondent had a name, but the hon. member did not choose to give it. He could have wished, as he had abstained from mentioning his name, that he had also abstained from mentioning the names of several learned gentlemen whom he had spoken of rather unfairly, as he thought. As to the general observations of his hon. friend, the member for the Queen's county, he could hardly account for what had fallen from him. The revenue from spirits was already much beyond that sum which his hon. friend had calculated on as a great increase. With respect to other branches of revenue, he would put it to his own candour, whether they had not been raised beyond example? If his hon. friend recollected the produce of the inland duties when he was himself at the board of treasury, he would not think light of what had been done. In truth, the country had made great efforts, and had made them cheerfully. As to the expense of the collection of the revenue, it was most uncandid to compare it with that in a kingdom where the public income was ten times as great, and where the establishments were by no means in the same proportion. This should always be remembered in the department of customs particularly to which the hon. member had alluded. As to the post-office, it would be bad policy indeed, in a country like Ireland, to look to it merely as a source of revenue. It had been made, and laudably made, subsidiary in the first instance to the accommodation of the public, and to the improvement of their communications, which ultimately would more than repay even in revenue itself. The hon. baronet knew the expense of the conveyance of mails, the establishment of coaches, and the surveys of the great lines of road, all which fell heavy upon the revenue of the post office, and were not charges on the same branch in this country; of all objections this was the last which he expected, from him or from any Irish representative. There were but two other points he would refer to. It had been said, that the appointment of the officers of all departments ought to rest with the boards and not with the lord lieutenant. Now, he thought that there was as good a chance of the lord lieutenant doing his duty honourably as any of the gentlemen (though he felt great respect for them) who had ever sat at any of those boards. It was better that every public man should be immediately before the eye of the public and of parliament, and the responsibility was greater which was not divided with colleagues, even if each could shift off improper imputation from himself. Of the noble person who was now lord lieutenant, he felt it his duty to say that he had acted throughout, in regard to those appointments, only with a view to the advantage of the revenue. It would be well if those to whom the same power might be confided hereafter, whether boards or others, acted as purely and with the same regard to the public service. It was not now the time to notice what the hon. baronet had said on the Catholic question; it was a bad compliment to insinuate that the expense of our military establishment would be saved by Catholic emancipation. He could not concede this point, or that there was any connexion between the disturbances of Munster and religious dissatisfaction, and he must be forgiven for saying that this was not the first time he had felt regret at seeing the manner in which the hon. baronet had advocated that question. As to the. assimilation of the currency, he had explained himself on a former night very fully. He had wished to make it a part of that great financial union which was to incorporate both countries; but he thought any pledge of a prospective measure unadvisable until the whole subject could be maturely considered.

staled, first, that upon the representation of a public board to the lord lieutenant, as to the inefficiency of any officer, that officer's service was dispensed with; secondly, that no officer was dismissed unless in consequence of the representation of the board under which he acted; and thirdly, that no officer's salary had been increased, unless the board, with which that officer was connected, concurred in the application for such increase. This he could venture to affirm, from his knowledge of the government of Ireland; and he thought the statement necessary, in order to repel the suspicion of any undue influence upon the conduct of that government. As to the hon. baronet's plan of economy, it seemed extraordinary that that plan should include, first, a reduction of 30,000 men from an army, which altogether consisted of only 25,000; and secondly, the reduction of criminal prosecutions, which the hon. baronet, no doubt, proposed with a view to promote the tranquillity of the country, which probably, the hon. baronet was encouraged to think quite secure, from the favourable account which the House had recently heard of the state of the county of Tipperary. The hon. baronet could not, however, hope to derive a very material saving on the latter head, for the vote for the whole of the expense of criminal prosecutions amounted to only 25,000l. As to the third and last branch of the hon. baronet's economical project, namely, the abolition of the local government of Ireland, he did not think it necessary to detain the House by any observation upon, that point.

said, that in consequence of the right hon. gentleman's allusion to the county of Tipperary, of which he had the honour to be a representative, he felt it necessary to say a few words, and he would repeat, that tranquillity was restored in that county—that more had been done within a very short period through the influence of conciliation, than the right hon. gentleman's system of police had been able to accomplish within many months, at an expense of 8,300l. to the inhabitants of the county. To pay this expense, he (general M.) as a member of the grand jury, was obliged to assent, although convinced of the inefficiency of the system. He did not, however, mean to blame the right hon. gentleman for incumbering the county with such expense, because he was aware, that the introduction of his system was called for by the magistrates; but he was fully satisfied, that more good would have been done without than with that system. Indeed, he was assured, that no good whatever was done by what, in compliment to the right hon. gentleman, were called " the peelers." He could assure the House, that no information, as to any conspiracy or malefaction was ever obtained by those peelers—that no evil was prevented or punished through their intervention or activity. For instance, no one taken up by the peelers on the charge of being concerned in the murder of that worthy magistrate Mr. Baker, had ever been convicted, while the information which led to the apprehension and conviction of some of the murderers, was obtained by the resident magistrates. Yet the county was called upon to pay those peelers 8,300l.; that is, the innocent were compelled to pay for the guilty, while the payment made to those who contributed nothing either to the prevention or detection of guilt, in too many instances disabled tenants from paying their rent. Now, as to his hon. friend's plan for economizing the expenditure of the Irish government. He (general M.) denied that his hon. friend had ever called for the reduction of 30,000 men. Therefore the right hon. gentleman's joke was unfounded. The general maintained that a saving of 300,000l. a year might be very easily made in Ireland, and principally by the abolition of the local government. For there was no occasion for a lord lieutenant in Dublin merely to drive a coach and six from the castle to the Phoenix park, at an expense to the country of 30,000l. a year; nor was there any occasion for the office of the right hon. secretary Peel, who had a salary of 6,000l. a year, with two noble houses, for which he did nothing at all but trouble the country. There were several other offices also which might very well be abolished, and among them a secretary at war with a large salary, for which he did nothing but write letters to the yeomanry, which might just as well be written from the war office in this country. In fact, since the Union, which rendered Ireland a mere province, the Irish court was quite a mockery, to which none but the partisans of the government resorted, which indeed served only to encourage party dissentions. Therefore no independent Irish nobleman or gentleman now resided in Dublin. All their mansions were sold or let to barristers and attorneys, and thus Dublin was injured by the residence of the court. If, however, this court were removed—if Ireland were put on the same footing as Scotland—he had no doubt that Dublin, like Edinburgh, would be resorted to in the winter months by the independent nobility and gentry of the country, who now occasionally visited that capital, merely upon business, and rarely residing any where but at hotels. The hon. general suggested that the Castle might be converted to the use of the public, so as to obviate the necessity of any new building for the customs and excise, while the country houses belonging to the court, might be sold for the public benefit. He strongly recommended the abolition of the barrack establishment, with a view to farther saving. There was, he said, at present, to be found a barrack master, with a barrack, in numerous districts, without any army to occupy it. Thus an expense, which was totally unnecessary, was imposed upon the public, to maintain a scandalous system of patronage in an impoverished country.

said, that the interference of the police objected to by the gallant officer, was introduced in the last instance into the county of Tipperary, upon the requisition of 76 magistrates, who had had previous experience of that system, and that there was no intention of erecting any new buildings for either the customs or excise.

did not rise to deny or defend the number of counsel which might be employed, as the hon. member for Norwich had stated, in the Munster circuit. When he knew any thing of that circuit, the number was much smaller; how it might be now he could not say, but he wished to deny the charge which the hon. member had brought against the barristers, of grossly neglecting their duty, and shifting their business from one to another in so careless a way, that at last the business was not done at all, and the criminals escaped., He would venture utterly to deny this statement; the gentlemen alluded to were some of the most respectable names at the Irish bar, and they would scorn to be guilty of such a mean neglect of duty as that imputed to them. It was rather hard, that on the information of an anonymous letter, the characters of these respectable individuals should be thus stigmatised. It should be recollected that professional men, above all others, depended on their character even for their livelihood; and what could be a more grave imputation against a barrister, than that he received fees for business which he afterwards neglected to do? He was confident that this heavy charge against some of the most enlightened and honourable members of the Irish bar was unfounded; he could positively assert, that when he had happened to know something of the circuit alluded to, all the counsel employed did regularly attend, and the business was done in a manner corresponding to their eminent abilities. He thought it right to say so much on behalf of gentlemen thus unhandsomely attacked, without the possibility of being able to defend themselves; and he thought the hon. member would have done more fairly, if he had either not mentioned the names of the barristers, or given up the name of the correspondent who had traduced them.

expressed his regret that his observations should be taken in this view. He was ready to confess, that he was in some degree liable to the rebuke of the hon. member, but he would say, that he really did not mean to make any charge against these barristers: it might however have been better, if he had not named them; but he only meant to say, that according to the old proverb, too many cooks appeared here to spoil the broth.

asked whether the committee were to understand that the sum now required for the service of Ireland would comprise the supply necessary to meet all charges?

answered, that it would meet the whole expenditure of Ireland, including her share of the joint contribution of the two countries.

after noticing the amazing profits derived by the proprietors of bank of England stock, repeated his objection to the payment of any interest for the three millions to be advanced by the governor and company of that establishment.

The resolutions were then put and agreed to.