rose to present a Petition from the bishops and clergy professing the Roman Catholic Religion in Ireland; he said it was signed by 23 prelates, and 1,052 priests. The Catholic bishops and clergy of Ireland, he proceeded to state, had been at all times most conspicuous for the faithful discharge of their duties, as teachers of the Christian Religion. Whatever there was of moral principle existing among the Catholic people of Ireland, it was wholly to be attributed to the unabated zeal of their clergy; for no people ever owed less, for any good quality they possessed, to the protection of the laws they lived under, or the assistance of the state; the whole system of both being a continued effort, during the greater part of the last century, to deprive the people of all instruction, whether by the aid of religion or by schools. It was, therefore, not to be questioned, that had it not been for the meritorious conduct of the Catholic clergy, in defiance of all suffering and dangers, the Irish people must have been at this day the most ignorant and most uncivilized people of the world. He said, he knew that many were inclined to conceive that this was their real character, but such an opinion was wholly void of foundation. Every one at all acquainted with Ireland must admit, that the people possess a moral principle, which leads them to practise all the domestic and social duties in the most exemplary manner. It was no doubt true, that many and very outrageous acts and crimes occasionally disgraced some parts of the country; but if these were traced to their true causes, they would almost always be found to be instigated by religious animosities, emanating from political disabilities. Those who had the most studied the nature of the crimes that come before the tribunals of justice, are of opinion, that they are for the most part nearly altogether those crimes which are called mala prohibita, and not mala in se. This distinction is found to prevail very generally, and fully proves how universally the principles of religion and virtue exist, and how successful the efforts of the clergy must have been in the discharge of their sacred duties. The Catholic clergy were not less distinguished for their zeal in teaching submission to the laws and the ruling powers. Notwithstanding all the bishops were appointed by James 2nd and his son the pretender, till a late period of the last century, it is upon record, upon the best authority, that among the pretender's papers, which were seized after the battle of Culloden, no trace was to be found of any connexion between him and the Irish Catholic bishops or clergy. The noble lord (the secretary for foreign affairs and the right hon. member for Peterborough (Mr. Elliot), who were both in the Irish government in 1798, have repeatedly borne testimony, in this House, of the great services the Catholic bishops rendered the state, by the influence of their example and pastoral letters, in suppressing the rebellion of 1798. Under all these circumstances, sir Henry hoped this House would feel this meritorious body were deserving of its respect and consideration. The petition which they had thought proper to place in his hands contained their unanimous opinion on those ecclesiastical arrangements, which some persons considered as necessary to be connected with the measure of Catholic emancipation. It comprised a very able argument, to show, that no alteration was necessary in the present mode of appointing bishops. In advancing this opinion, in opposition to the very general feeling that prevailed on this point, he said he hoped the House would not consider their conduct as in any way intending disrespect to its proceedings, or as conveying any intention to resist, in any improper manner, any measure which the House or parliament might think proper to adopt. They had only exercised a right which belongs to every class of subjects of these countries, that of submitting to parliament their opinion on a great public question, materially affecting their most important interests. It was to be observed, that notwithstanding the very general sentiment which prevailed, of the necessity of connecting ecclesiastical arrangements with the measure of emancipation, no case had ever yet been made out to prove that they were necessary—no sort of injury to the state had been shown to have arisen, or to be likely to arise, from the long established mode of appointing Catholic bishops. The advocates of those arrangements had yet to prove some defect in it, and, therefore, all objections to them, particularly those coming from the Catholic bishops, ought to be received with the greatest attention and indulgence. The hon. member then said, that this was the first opportunity he had had of calling the attention of the House to the petitions he had presented in the course of this month from the Catholics of Ireland, as he had felt it to be his duty to wait for the arrival of the petition which he held in his hand; and though the subject of them had already been very much discussed, and in a great measure decided upon, he still felt it due to the petitioners again to call upon the House to consider their claims. He was aware he could not do so with any hopes of obtaining, in this session, a legislative measure for general relief from all the disabilities the Catholics labour under; but there was still sufficient time during this session to concede those minor objects which the Speaker had some years ago admitted might with safety be granted. He should, therefore, give notice this evening of a motion for this day se'nnight, for the House to resolve itself into a committee to take the petitions into consideration; not with the view of succeeding in carrying any vote in that committee, for admitting Catholics into seats in parliament, or the high offices of the state, though he should propose a vote to that effect, but to obtain, if possible, a measure for giving them complete relief from all other existing disabilities.

felt great satisfaction in having that opportunity of saying a few words to correct a statement that had, perhaps unintentionally, appeared in some of the morning papers, and thence been copied into those of Ireland, in which a declaration was attributed to him, far different indeed from that which he had expressed. It was there stated (said the gallant general), that I had just come from Ireland, and informed the House, that there were five millions of Irishmen who were extremely anxious to give every possible security to government; and also, that I had gone to Rome, for the purpose of holding a conference with the pope, with a view to accelerate the Veto. The fact however, was, that I disclaimed all idea of giving securities, and, least of all, of conceding the Veto. To the Veto I object, on two grounds: first, as a Protestant, because I would not give the Crown such an increased influence as an interference in the nomination of Catholic bishops must confer; and secondly, I object to the Veto, as a sincere friend to the Catholics, the great majority of whom are decidedly hostile to it. The Catholic bishops, at a synod held in Kilkenny, and the result of whose deliberations is now embodied in the petition before the House, assent to the principle of a domestic arrangement, calculated, in my mind, to appease the nicest scruples of the established church. In this opinion the people of Ireland will concur, because they will ever follow their prelates. All, however, agree in condemning the Veto, and in their sentiments I readily agree.

doubted whether the House could receive the petition, inasmuch as it professed to be from persons who called themselves the bishops, and not the titular bishops of Ireland.

held the same opinion with the hon. general, and had it not been already expressed by him, he (sir J. C. Hippisley) would have considered it his bounden duty to propose to the chair, whether there did not exist a legal objection to the receiving of the petition. He referred to the Irish act of the 21st and 22nd of the king, which prohibited all Popish ecclesiastics from assuming any ecclesiastical title within the realm. He therefore did not conceive that the House, consistently with its duty, could receive the petition. He had already proved himself a friend to further concessions to the Roman Catholics, and concurred in the high character which the hon. baronet who presented the petition gave to the Catholic prelates and clergy. He had known many of the Catholic prelates of Ireland—had corresponded with them on terms of confidence, and was fully persuaded of the integrity of their civil principles; but while the law to which he alluded remained unrepealed on the statute book, it was imperative on the House to enforce its execution. He spoke advisedly on this subject, for his opinion was formed on that of several eminent professional men.

was not a little surprised to hear the hon. baronet object to the petition on the grounds of those persons having styled themselves bishops, while he himself so readily designated them as prelates, and acknowledged his having corresponded with them under that character. The hon. baronet had expressed a great veneration for the statute to which he had alluded, but was he aware that by a clause of that very statute, he had subjected himself to a heavy penalty for corresponding with those interdicted bishops? That statute, however, had been virtually repealed by the statute of 1795, and the title of bishop was no longer a crime in an ecclesiastic of the Catholic religion. To the opinion expressed by the hon. baronet he would oppose the no less respectable one of a prelate in the other House, to whose sentiments he might refer as a matter of history. During the discussions in 1793, bishop Horsley, speaking of the Roman Catholic prelacy of Ireland, said, "My lords, they are as much bishops as any of my reverend friends who now sit on this bench." The hon. baronet concluded by observing, that the House would not act in the spirit of conciliation, if they revived the operation of an act, whose power was confessed to be doubtful, and which at present could be effectual solely for the prevention of the subjects petitions.

contended, that even in the opinion of writers of the Catholic community, the act to which he alluded was not repealed by the statute of 1793, though he admitted that its existence was an anomaly. The English statute in fact did tolerate the episcopal order. It was not a question whether they were bishops, but bishops of Ireland and whether they were at liberty to use the title of bishop in Ireland.

thought no objection could exist to the petition, for the House should consider, not their titles as stated in the commencement of the petition, but how they affixed their signatures. Now the petitioners did not distinguish themselves by any particular see, but merely by their christian and surnames. Had it been otherwise, it would undoubtedly have been the bounden duty of the House to reject it.

agreed in opinion with the hon. gentleman who spoke last, and added that the petitioners did not even style themselves bishops of Ireland, but, " bishops professing the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland."

The petition was then read, and ordered to lie on the table.

rose, pursuant to notice, to move for " an account of the expense incurred by the bank of England, in prosecuting persons for Forging Notes, or for uttering or having in their possession forged notes, for the last four years, from the first January 1812, to the first January 1816, distinguishing each year." He observed that, according to returns made to that House, forged notes to the amount of 100,000l. had been refused payment by the bank, which must necessarily be a great evil to the public.

said, he did not perceive the utility of the motion, a compliance with which would necessarily be attended with great trouble and delay.

The motion was then negatived.

alluded to the motion of which he had given notice relative to the destruction of all the returns made respecting the Income Tax. He understood that no objection would be made to the motion, and that the only question was as to the mode of collecting the papers for the purpose of destroying them. He therefore wished to know what steps had been taken, or were intended to be taken for this purpose.

assured the House that there was no wish to preserve the returns alluded to, and that such directions had been given as would substantially effect the object. A circular had been sent to the different offices for this purpose. It was proposed to erase the names of individuals from all returns. The returns themselves would not be entirely destroyed, as it was necessary to preserve an account of the sums contributed by the different classes of the people. As to the returns to be made for the future, they would be made so as to keep the names of persons out of sight, by making the returns by numbers instead of names.

expressed his satisfaction at the arrangement, particularly as to future returns, and admitted the propriety of keeping an account of the different classes of persons who paid. But he expressed his doubt at to the mode of erasure; he thought burning the papers would be much better, and there was a public officer, not in very great estimation, whose assistance for this purpose might be very advantageously called in [a laugh].

said, he was not sorry he had postponed his motion till now, as a paper had been produced which contained much information. It appeared, by returns of the number of extents since 1800, that there were in 1801 nine, in 1802 ten, in 1803 eleven, in 1804 seven, in 1805 five, in 1806 eight, in 1812 twenty-nine, in 1813 eighteen, in 1814 forty-two, and last year a hundred and eight, being eleven times as many as ten years ago. He expected assistance from hon. and learned gentlemen opposite, though they might not agree as to the means. The exchequer court was anciently of high judicature, particularly in revenue cases. Extents were either in chief or in aid; one on immediate crown debtors—the other at the petition of a crown debtor, in order to satisfy the crown demands, when the party was unable to pay, his means being withheld. There might be reasons for this when commerce was less, and the state of the revenue different. Now the power of extents was enormous. He had seen an instruction from the excise to its officers, stating the advantages of extents over every other mode. The crown debt might be levied not only on the goods of the debtor, but on the cattle of others on his lands. He instanced the hardships that might occur in the case of a cattle fair, if an extent came down: all the beasts from the highlands of Scotland might be taken. So, in extents on freeholds, they proceeded against debtors in several degrees. The word prerogative was used in a sense wherein the Crown had no interest whatever. The question was, whether this mode of collection was for the advantage of the subject generally, and whether it answered its object. The old cases were chiefly those of receivers. In Edward 3rd's time, the Commons prayed that a set-off should be allowed for what was due to the subject, and the king replied that he would take advice as to the best way of easing his people: but since then, the practice had gone on of not admitting the set-off. He would not enter into the wisdom of the law; but where the case was as between subject and subject, he thought the propriety of the set-off must be admitted. The reason as to the King's emergencies, the ardua bellorum, upon which these extents were in remote times justified, must have long ago ceased, and perhaps for the same reason extents in chief might in the present day be dispensed with. Those, however, which still continued to be issued in aid, were burthensome to the last degree upon the subject. In the ordinary process of execution, the party against whom it was taken out enjoyed at least three months, and often a much longer time, for making his defence, or for raising the means of staying execution. An extent in aid was in the nature of execution without any notice at all, and the form of it was simply this: the party suing it out applied to the Crown-office for a writ against himself as a debtor of the Crown. Thus the proceeding commenced in fraud; for the Crown had, in ninety cases out of a hundred, no cognizance of the matter, and the process issued was directed solely against the debtor of the plaintiff. The writ, however, was addressed to the sheriff of the county, requiring him to summon a jury in order to take an inquisition upon the suit. In what manner did the House suppose the verdict was found; or of whom did it imagine the jury itself was composed? The writ of inquest was carried into the sheriff's court, and the affidavit upon which it was grounded exhibited, upon which the jury uniformly found the debt. Instead of their being formed of substantial householders or considerable inhabitants of the county or in the vicinity, they consisted either of persons who were in attendance for this sort of employment, or, if the number was insufficient, it was made up of hackney-coachmen, or any individuals who might be met with on the highway. He need state but one circumstance to induce the House to give credit to this description, and he could assure them that the jury so formed received 1s. each for the verdict. Such was the practice at least in the county of Middlesex, and with this he had made himself perfectly acquainted. The party having by these means obtained a verdict, then went with his affidavit before one of the barons of the exchequer, and asked for a fiat. By the resolutions of the whole court of exchequer, in the reign of Charles 2nd, it was declared that this fiat should be granted only upon debts due originally to the Crown, upon debts of specialty, and after motion in open court. All these guards and provisions had become of no practical effect of late years, and he had cases to produce which would, he was sure, excite the curiosity and rouse the indignation of the House, in which simple contract debts, with which the Crown had no connexion, had been assigned to the Crown, and this without any motion in court. He had heard it said, that the present practice arose out of the bankrupt laws; but no practice could be more effectual for the purpose of defeating the operation of those laws. It gave to one creditor what belonged jointly to all. When an extent came down, it seized upon every thing, even the person of the debtor; and if his effects were not sufficient to satisfy the last shilling of the debt due to the Crown, or rather to this fiction of the Crown, he was excepted from the benefit, of the insolvent acts. Such a power was extremely oppressive in the hands of the Crown, but, when exercised between subject and subject, it became intolerable. The goods of the unfortunate debtor, when seized, were always immediately sold for what they would fetch; and he knew a case in Which the property of an individual had been sold for not more than one shilling in the pound of their value. All this might happen, and yet there be no legal debt; for the claim rested entirely on the affidavit of the party who sued out the extent. Although the case might be afterwards reviewed in court, the defendant, it must be recollected, was perhaps already in prison, was deprived of his books, and probably of the means of feeing counsel and maintaining his cause. It was very seldom indeed that these extents were set aside on motion: in nearly every case it was necessary to plead, and the object could generally be obtained only by trying an issue. In the mean time the party had been obliged to surrender his books, whilst his debtors were interdicted from paying him their accounts on pain of being compelled to pay a second time. He believed there were few instances of extents being set aside, except where the defendent was a man of powerful connexions, or after a commission of bankruptcy had issued, and even in cases like the last it had sometimes cost the assignees not less than 500l.; for in addition to all the other severity and injustice of this proceeding, the defendant was saddled with all costs, whatever might be the judgment of the court. He was aware that the ordinary writ by which the court of exchequer held plea of causes between subject and subject, was the quo minus sufficiens existit; but, by the present practice of issuing extents in aid, it was hardly necessary to show that any debt was due to the Crown: the party taking out process had only to swear that he was debtor to a certain amount, and obtain an extent for any sum, no matter of what magnitude. If he owed the Crown 500l. he might by this proceeding seize to the amount of 10,000l.,putting the 9,500l. thus wrested from all the other creditors into his own pocket. He doubted whether a system of such absurd and palpable injustice would be endured in any other country, even in Turkey itself: but it was peculiarly mischievous in England, where it was so necessary that confidence between man and man should be strictly maintained. That this was a new as well as a dangerous practice might be shown by a case which occurred in 1731, in which an extent was refused upon the specific ground that it might operate injuriously as between traders: and it was added that this might be nothing more than a simple contract debt. In another case the court rejected the application because the affidavit was not drawn up in the ancient form, and declared, that although they were masters of their own forms, they would not allow the prerogative of the Crown to be made a handle for the recovery of private debts. The further back, in point of fact, that the precedents on this subject were traced—the nearer they approached the antiquos fontes of law, the more favourable for the subject would appear the construction of this prerogative, notwithstanding we now lived in an age when the interests of commerce were of so much greater importance than in earlier times. In the case of Capel and Brewer in the year 1687, which was an application in chancery for relief against an extent in aid, sued out by one of the farmers of the revenue who had assigned the debt to the Crown, the court observed, that it had become a common process for the recovery of private debts, and that it was a great oppression, tending to render a commission of bankruptcy ineffectual. This was the doctrine in 1687, now 128 years ago; and yet in this commercial age, after the provisions of the bankrupt laws had been so often strengthened by the legislature, he had found in Mr. Bingham's " Law of Executions," the latest publication on the subject, this most extraordinary opinion, viz. that if the common form of the process was observed, the party taking it out might obtain a good fiat, although for the sole purpose of recovering his own debt. This opinion might not be good authority: it was stated to be quoted from "Tidd's Practice." The hon. and learned gentleman smiled, but he would show that the practice at least gave plausibility and colour to the doctrine. One of the evils was, that it affected a man's partners as well as himself. A partner of a banking-house might be surety for a sub-distributor of stamps, and the advantage of this was well understood. Such a banking-house had it always in its power to get an extent against any debtor, and its operation pursued the debtors of that debtor, and so on, till the original claim was satisfied. A country banker, for instance, might fall upon the goods of some tradesman, and through him seize the effects of some poor widow who was subsisting on a miserable pittance. Its effects were like those of the great principle described by the poet, which—

Lives through all life, extends through all extent,

Spreads undivided, operates unspent.

He would now come to the individual cases of which he had to complain, and which, he trusted, would amply supply the defects of his argument. They formed a long list, and he would venture to say there was not one from which the Crown had benefitted a single shilling. In every one of them the party applying for the process had been much more than able to discharge his own debt to the Crown, but had thought proper, and in his opinion, most fraudulently, to employ this fiction for their own private ends. Many men had no moral restraint but the words of a statute; and he had seen instances, with regard to the exercise of this power, of such scandalous misconduct as almost to induce him to expose the names of the parties, and hold them up to public ignominy. Hic niger est. His first case was that of a corn-dealer, who had given a large bill of exchange to a country correspondent; subsequent to which, and before the bill was due, his credit became injured, and a docket was struck against him. The holder of the bill then repaired to an acquaintance of his, a farmer of the post-horse duty, saying, "such a man is in bad credit, therefore discount me this bill, and you have the power of issuing an extent against him." The farmer of the post-horse duty discounted the bill, for what consideration he would not pretend to say; and having made affidavit that this was an original debt, the extent issued, and although the transaction was one complete tissue of fraud, it was with difficulty set aside by the assignees at an expense of 500l. The very same party took out another extent against another individual, whom he had accommodated while on the verge of bankruptcy; and being asked how he could trust a man in such circumstances, he replied, "I knew better than that; I had an extent in my pocket to secure the debt." The great bulk of these cases of extent lay where country bankers had become receivers of the revenue, and where perhaps one of the partners had contrived to make himself a debtor of the Crown, for the very purpose of issuing extents in aid on the property of those who were debtors of the firm. He did this in cases where the Crown was in no danger whatever of losing its debt, but where the banking concern was worth ten, twenty, or forty times the amount. Other cases of extents arose from the distributors and sub-distributors of stamps. The number of extents in aid under the head of stamps was only one in 1802, but they had since risen to twenty-eight in the course of last year. Indeed, from the papers laid before parliament, it appeared that they had exces- sively multiplied of late years. In 1802, the extents in chief were only 46, and the extents 10; but in 1815, the extents in chief had arisen to 233, and the extents in aid to 108. He knew it to be a fact, which he should prove before a committee, that many extents in aid had issued out of the stamp-office, which were granted without there being the slightest ground to assert that the revenue of the Crown was in danger. Out of the many cases which had been stated to him he should only mention two, accompanied with such extraordinary circumstances that they must stand in the room of all the rest. The following was one of these cases:—two persons in partnership, wholesale stationers in the city of London, had entered into a contract with a paper-maker in the country (who is of course under the excise) for some goods, which having been delivered irregularly, some dispute arose about the quantity received and paid for. The paper-maker, however, obtains an extent in aid for the debt which he claimed under this disputed account, seizes the whole of their goods and papers, throws these individuals into prison, and the rest of the creditors all went without a shilling of the property. These poor men were now lying in gaol, without money to support their families. He had letters from both these parties stating the above circumstances; and he had also in his possession the opinion which a respectable counsel gave on their case. This opinion stated, that it had been held that though the debt due to the person issuing the extent was less than what he owed to the Crown, yet that he might get an extent issued to the amount of the whole of that debt. The counsel gave it as his opinion, that probably the best course would be to refer the matter to the deputy-remembrancer, who might settle the account between the parties. And here let it be observed, that the gentleman who gave his opinion as to a remedy with so much hesitation, was a person of eminence in his profession. Another course, he added, might be, to file a bill in equity for the purpose of compelling the man who claimed to be a creditor to come to an account; and this, let it be observed, was the recommendation given to persons who were without a shilling in the world. The last recommendation of the counsel was, to come to some settlement with the party, without the intervention of law—with the very party who had been the cause of their utter ruin, and who had the whole of their property in his possession. The other case was a still more extraordinary one, and accompanied with still greater hardships. The extent in this case was issued at the instance of the very same paper-maker who had issued the other. A very ingenious man of the name of Holden had thought that it would be an undertaking not only beneficial to himself, but to the country, if he could make a sort of universal directory for all England, containing the names and address not only of persons in trade of any eminence, but also of men of landed property. He expended many years of his life in preparations for this work, and also several thousand pounds of his property. The work was to consist of four volumes, and he had obtained 1,000 subscribers at the rate of a guinea a volume. The expenses, however, proved so large, that when he had finished the first volume, he was obliged to call his creditors together, and state to them, that unless they allowed him a little time he must stop, but if they would not press him, there was every chance of their obtaining their money. His creditors, among whom was this paper-maker, unanimously, as he thought, agreed to this proposal: he thought that the individual in question had also agreed to it. This fact stood alone on the testimony of Mr. Holden, who was now dead, and therefore was incapable of proof. But whatever there might be in this, the paper-maker watched his opportunity, and while the poor man thought himself safe, he issued an extent against the whole of his property. The whole of the copies were sold under the extent for little more than a shilling a piece, instead of a guinea, the subscription price, so that it was doubtful whether he even got enough to pay himself: certain it was, that no other creditor got a shilling; if there was any surplus, he had secured it all; and yet the man who did this bore the reputation of being worth thousands, so that the Crown ran no possible risk of losing any debt which he might owe to it. Mr. Holden died in prison of a broken heart. What was most absurd in this case was, that the Crown by the issuing of this extent lost its taxes. The land-tax of Mr. Holden's house the landlord was obliged to pay, but the house-tax and the window-tax were not paid at all. The Crown was thus made the instrument to cheat itself of its own dues, by issuing an extent on the application of a man who was much more than competent to pay what he owed to the exchequer. Such were the absurdities as well as iniquities of which this system was productive. He would assert that every circumstance he had now stated was true, and should establish them before a committee. He could state a variety of other instances of almost equal hardship, but he trusted he had at least made out a case which demanded the consideration of parliament. He had received complaints from various quarters, that if the evil were not soon stopped, an end would be put to all confidence between man and man. It was impossible that meetings of creditors could come to any satisfactory resolution, if any one of them could thus step in with an extent, and seize the whole of the property. He knew that a race was sometimes actually run by the assignees and a particular creditor,—the former to get a docket struck, and the latter to obtain a fiat for an extent. In one instance a baron of the exchequer had been dragged out of his bed in order to sign a fiat, and the rapidity with which it was done allowed no time for obtaining information as to its justice.—He now came to consider the remedy; and with this view he would suggest the expediency of appointing a committee to inquire into the law as it now stood, together with the facts which he had stated, in order to see what remedy could be devised for the evil. It had been suggested to him, and probably the suggestion would now be repeated, that the court of exchequer had a jurisdiction over its own forms, and could itself correct the abuse. In answer to this, he must remark, that the practice in the hands of the exchequer had been growing worse and worse from year to year. He imputed nothing more to the court than inadvertence in the issuing of these extents; but finding that they had increased so prodigiously of late years, attended with all the circumstances he had mentioned, he was compelled to conclude that the matter required parliamentary revision. Besides, he knew a facility had been given in some of the offices of the exchequer to the issuing of extents to a degree that would scarcely be credited. A gentleman he knew applied at one of these offices for an extent, and was told that the form of it was, that by the danger of his property in the hands of his creditor "he was less able to pay the King's taxes." The gentleman, conscious that he was quite able to pay, rather demurred to this, and said he should prefer the words "might be less able to pay." The form was instantly altered according to his wish, the affidavit was made, and time was hardly given to the baron of the exchequer to read it before he signed his fiat. He could state other facts to show the abuses which existed. A person who was called a country gentleman not long ago applied to a respectable solicitor of his acquaintance, saying that he wanted to be made a collector of the King's taxes. The solicitor inquired what possible object he could have in obtaining such an appointment. "Oh!" replied the other; "I shall then be able to get extents in aid, and collect all my own debts." He knew another person in the country who wished to be appointed an agent of the Sun Fire-office; and his reason for this was, that he would then so far become a public accountant, that by means of extents in aid, he should be able to get in his own book-debts. He knew an attorney in the country who was a partner in a banking-house, and also a distributor of stamps, and who by these means got extents to enable him to collect his debts as an attorney, and the debts of his partnership concern. He could mention, if necessary, the names of the individuals, but what he had said was sufficient to show the laxity with which these extents were issued from the exchequer. Abuses like these, he contended, were intolerable in a country once famed for the honour and integrity of its merchants. Besides, it might be shown that the most contradictory opinions prevailed with regard to the proceedings of the court of exchequer and its powers. Mr. Anstruther, in the preface to his Exchequer Reports, complained that few of the recorded legal decisions there were to be relied upon. In one case he had shown that there was no regular form of words adhered to in affidavits for extents. He quoted a case in which several of the barons of exchequer complained of the want of authorities. Where so much uncertainty prevailed, it would be ineffectual to apply to the authority of that court. He also adverted to a case of extent, attended with great hardship, brought into the court of chancery, and on which the chancellor remarked, that the court could not look to the consequences—it could look only to the law. He would say, then, let that law be altered. He could not consent to trust the removal of such intolerable grievances, which had gone on of late years with a rapidity indescribable, to the rules and orders that might be issued by the court of exchequer. If a committee were denied him, then, he should bring in a bill for the purpose of altering the law, not on his own responsibility, but with sufficient legal assistance to render it not unworthy of the acceptance of the House. If he could not obtain either a committee or a bill, he could not consent that the matter should be referred entirely to the barons. He concluded by moving, " That a committee be appointed to take into consideration the practice of granting, out of the court of exchequer, extents in aid of the debtors of the Crown, with the abuses which have taken place therein, and to report thereupon to the House. "

said, that the hon. gentleman might rely on the exertions of his hon. and learned friend (the attorney-general) and himself to correct those abuses of which he complained, as they arose in the courts of law. They had always been in the habit of setting their faces against such abuses of the process of the Crown. He had been called upon, as a lawyer, to give his assistance in setting aside extents; and in every case of this kind he had been successful in showing to the court that such extents should be set aside. It was very likely from the greater number of those extents that had been issued of late years, that many of them had been improperly sued out, and nevertheless had not been brought before the court for correction: but in all other processes there were instances of abuse and oppression, and it was impossible for the court of exchequer in every instance to prevent this process from being abused. He should have liked better if the hon. member, instead of moving for a committee, had at once proposed some law on the subject, because then the House would have seen whether the abuse arose from the construction of the law, and required that parliament should interfere for its removal. He would again say, that there was a power in the court of exchequer to set aside extents that had been abusively employed. Whether the hon. gentleman meant to propose that the principle of extents in aid should be narrowed, he knew not. He would again admit that there might be many cases of individual hardship, but these might not only originate from extents in aid, but from extents in chief; and he was surprised to hear it intimated, that because a man's property was laid hold of by an extent, he was denied the opportunity of rebutting the charge of debt. The party had a right to bring the question to trial, whether he was so indebted or not. The extent, no doubt, laid hold of the property, but still it was as open to the individual to try the question as it was in any other case of debt between man and man. The hon. gentleman had said, that some of the lowest and most ignorant persons, such as hackney-coachmen, were summoned on these juries; but he believed that the persons summoned on these occasions were the same that sat to assess damages on the execution of writs of inquiry. If, however, there were any instances of such improper persons having been summoned, it was a gross dereliction of duty in the under-sheriff. He apprehended there was a complete power in the court of exchequer to correct abuses in the individual cases which took place. There were certain rules and forms which ought to be adhered to; but the court could not be answerable for the improper use of the process in the first instance. The House must be aware, that writs of debt were frequently sued out of the courts of law on false affidavits. But though the courts could not prevent this abuse of the process, they had the power, and exercised the power, of doing justice to the individuals who were thus oppressed. It was the 33rd of Henry 8th, which directed the mode of issuing extents. With respect to the remedy of extent in aid itself, he should be sorry if it were reduced to the narrow ground which the hon. gentleman seemed to wish. The law had from all times been, that the writ of extent should go against the debtor of the Crown; and the law was, that the extent in aid should go against the debtor of the Crown's debtor. His objection to the committee was, that the House had no precise object pointed out to them to which the committee was to direct its attention. There was a power in the court of exchequer to remedy every abuse that might arise, though, as he had already observed, it could not prevent the improper use of the process, if a man would venture to make a false affidavit. It could not be expected that the learned judges were to read every affidavit that was sworn before them, but they would ultimately do justice between the parties. It did not therefore appear to him that the hon. gentleman had made out that sort of case which called for the interference of the legislature. There might be abuses in issuing the process, but he did not believe there was any abuse in the law itself; and for this reason he should move the previous question.

said, it must be admitted that there had been an abuse of the process; but his hon. and learned friend had stated, that there was no abuse in the law itself. He wished that his hon. and learned friend had mentioned what he conceived to be an abuse of the law. He (sir Samuel) had in the course of his profession found the most enormous abuses in giving a preference to creditors, more especially in cases of bankruptcy; and, with respect to extents in aid, if a man was the creditor of another, he had the power, merely as debtor of the Crown, to issue an extent, and sweep away all the property, without leaving a farthing for others. His hon. and learned friend had said, there were abuses of this process which the barons of the exchequer would remedy; but they had decided only, that it was an abuse where the party was not a debtor of the Crown. Suppose, however, an opulent banker in London, who had a surplus of 100,000l. after the payment of all his debts, happened to be a debtor of the Crown, and at the same time the creditor of another person; this banker was entitled to have an extent in aid, and thus obtain a priority over all other persons. All these prerogatives of the Crown were originally vested in it for the public benefit; and the party who prayed an extent in aid ought first to make oath, that unless he had that process, the debt he owed to the Crown would be in danger. This simple regulation would cure the abuse altogether; but, at present, it was quite clear that the use of this process made a debtor to the Crown a privileged person, whereas all creditors ought to stand on an equal footing.

said, he had been informed that extents in aid had been very improperly issued, in consequence of the distress which prevailed during the last summer; and the general question was stated to him in a way which induced him to make further inquiry into the subject. The lords of the treasury had since directed the judges to consider what regulations ought to be adopted, and to make their report. He likewise wished to state, that the treasury had given directions that no persons concerned, either directly or indirectly, in country banks, should be allowed to act in the collection of the revenue.

begged to state a most flagrant abuse of this process, which had occurred in the county of Brecon. An extent in aid was issued against George North, a banker in that county, to the amount of 8,000l. Having been informed of this circumstance, he applied to the treasury, from whom he received every facility, but he found that his majesty's government had nothing to do with the transaction. He was then referred to the solicitor of the treasury, and was informed that the extent was taken out by John North, the brother of the banker, a farmer of the post-horse duty, who swore that he was indebted to government in a sum of money, and that his brother owed him 8,000l. He then found that a brother-in-law, of the name of Maund, had made George North a bankrupt, and under John North's extent the effects were all carried to Maund's house, and the other creditors were defeated. Now, it was not the use of the extent which the creditors complained of, but the abuse of this practice: they wished to prevent one creditor from stepping in and sweeping off all the property. This practice of issuing extents in aid placed the Crown in a most invidious light, and unless a stop were put to it, ministers would bring an odium on the Crown which it did not deserve.

said, that if any person should have been guilty of a fraudulent abuse of the process, the court of exchequer would take care to defeat the fraud. His hon. and learned friend, who generally attended that court, went there to desire that the judges would not suffer any individual to make a stalking-horse of the Crown's interest. Directions had been given, which he hoped would prevent the improper use of the process in the first instance. It had been expressly ordered, that in future the extent in aid should not be abused, but kept, as it ought to be, in aid of the Crown's debtors. For these reasons, he felt it his duty to vote for the previous question.

observed, that the answer of the chancellor of the exchequer, who said that government had sent to the judges and told them that the Crown was anxious to prevent abuse, and the observations of the law officers of the Crown, had greatly alarmed him, as he thought this mode of proceeding was most unconstitutional. If the practice of issuing extents was a prerogative of the Crown, had the court of exchequer, had the judges, any right to declare in what manner that prerogative should be exercised? If they had a right to narrow the conditions, they might also extend the prerogative of the Crown. The court of exchequer had no power to alter its regulations without the consent of the legislature. He should certainly give his support to the motion.

observing that the hon. gentleman complained that the process of the Crown was applied to the purposes of individuals, admitted that this had sometimes been the case; but he was not yet prepared to say what might be the remedy for the evil, and he thought it not expedient to draw the question in the present stage out of the consideration of the law servants of the Crown; he concurred, therefore, in the propriety of moving the previous question.

thought that the difference of opinion which existed among the law servants of the Crown afforded the strongest ground for entering into an examination of this subject. As to any fear of disturbing the authority of the courts, nothing was so detrimental to the character of justice as to imply that any inquiry could do discredit to those courts. Whether the court had sufficient authority of itself to remedy the evil, or whether legislative interference were necessary, what mode of inquiry was so proper as a committee of that House? This committee should not consist of lawyers alone, for other men of sense and judgment often struck out hints which even lawyers would thank them for.

thought the committee would be useless, as he did not see how any remedies they might recommend could be applied. The court of exchequer had the power in itself to correct the abuses complained of, and it was only three weeks since that court had suppressed several extents which were proved to have been improperly issued.

contended, that this was not a narrow abstract question, which the judges of the court of exchequer were as competent to investigate as that House. It was, in fact, a question of policy, how far the prerogative of the Crown should be exercised, with respect to the property of the subject. The consideration of such a point as that came within the scope of the powers of the House, rather than within the consideration of the judges. From the great increase of the revenue in late years, that power which formerly could be very seldom employed became extremely dangerous and highly inconvenient, when it was extended to every distributor and sub-distributor of stamps. In every point of view he considered the formation of a committee to inquire into the subject, as the most proper mode of proceeding; since it was impossible for them to legislate, without knowing the whole extent of the grievance complained of.

as a commercial man, found himself called on to express his opinion on the subject. The solicitor-general had said, that an individual might traverse the extent, and gain redress if it were improperly issued; but he must in the mean time submit to all the discredit and inconvenience of keeping a bailiff in his House, which circumstance alone might sometimes operate his ruin. The attorney-general had stated, that the court of exchequer might make proper regulations; but there were many cases in which they could not possibly interfere. He himself had been assignee of a house that failed, greatly connected with country bankers. These bankers sued an extent, and the assignees paid them 100,000l., in consequence of which the estate did not yield a shilling to the other creditors: it was not pretended that the bankers were likely to fail in their engagements to the Crown; on the contrary, they were at the time in the highest credit. They consisted of five partners, and only one out of the five was a debtor of the Crown, yet at his suit alone was an extent issued for a debt due to all the five, who of course were all benefited by the effect of it. He (Mr. M.) under the advice of counsel, resisted the extent, and tried the matter in the exchequer, where it was given against him: he then referred it to a higher tribunal, which confirmed the decision of the court of exchequer: so that from this it appeared to be the law of the country, that one person who was a debtor to the Crown might extend the benefit of his privilege to twenty others entirely unconnected with government receipts. Where one of the parties was indebted to the Crown, he not only paid 20s. in the pound to him, but to all those with whom he was connected; and this to the exclusion of every other creditor. This was an injustice which it ap- peared the court of exchequer could not remedy; the House, therefore, was bound to inquire into the subject.

argued in favour of the committee. The complaint was, that these extents were frequently issued improperly. What did his learned friend, the solicitor-general, say in answer to this? He stated to the House, that, in several cases, in which he had lately been engaged, in the court of exchequer, the proceedings had been stopped. This was a strong argument in favour of inquiry, since it proved that extents had been improperly sued out.

supported the motion. As a proof of the oppressive operation of extents in aid, he instanced the case of a quaker, one of his constituents, who had, for ten or eleven hundred pounds purchased a freehold from a person who filled the situation of distributor of stamps. When the accounts of this distributor came to be investigated, he was found to be very much in arrear. An extent issued, and the poor quaker's house was seized; although, at the time he purchased it, the distributor did not owe any thing to government. If the committee were appointed, he would bring the quaker before them, who would tell his own plain, unvarnished story.

briefly replied. After which the House divided:

then moved, "That there be laid before this House copies of all rules in the court of exchequer, touching the issuing of Extents in Aid."

opposed the motion as improper, since every thing, he was convinced, would be done promptly, for the purpose of correcting those abuses which were admitted to exist. If those whose bounden duty it was to put down this abuse, and to take care that extents were only applied for the fair recovery of Crown debts, did not exert themselves for that purpose, the right hon. gentleman might then bring in a bill, or make any motion that appeared to him necessary.

contended, that it was most unconstitutional for the attorney-general, or any other law officer of the Crown, to pledge himself that the court of exchequer, or any other court, would apply itself to the correction of a particular evil, as a reason to induce parliament not to accede to a motion, tending to the elucidation of the subject. They did not call on the learned gentleman to enter into such an undertaking. All they wanted was, to know what the court of exchequer had already done, and whether they possessed power sufficient to put down those abuses, the existence of which the learned gentleman opposite had not attempted to deny.

disclaimed any intention of answering for the proceedings of the court of exchequer.

said, it was absolutely necessary, for the right understanding of the subject, that the rules of the court of exchequer, with reference to extents in aid, should be laid before them.

The House then divided: Yeas, 55; Noes, 70.—Majority 15.

said, that in calling the attention of the committee to the Message of the Prince Regent, he should certainly, at that late hour, and after the long discussion which had just been concluded, occupy as little of its attention as possible. But while he wished to reduce what he had to say into the narrowest compass, he felt that upon a subject of such importance and magnitude he should not treat the committee with proper respect if he did not explain the grounds upon which the Prince Regent had been advised to direct a new coinage of silver, and the principles upon which it was proposed to carry that measure into effect. The government would not, he was sure, in the opinion of parliament or of the country, have done their duty, if they had not under our present circumstances turned their attention to the state of the coinage, and employed every means in their power to put it on a proper footing. The circumstances in which we at present stood were fortunately essentially different from those in which we had been placed for many years past. We were now at peace with all the world, a great alteration had taken place in the state of our exchanges, instead of the balance of trade being universally against us, as it unhappily had been for a considerable length of time during the late struggle, the exchange with all the world was now in our favour. The high price of bullion which during the war had been so extraordinary and unprecedented, and on the causes of which there had been so much difference of opinion, and so many speculations, was now at an end; and the precious metals had fallen to their natural level. Silver at the present moment was rather under the mint price, and gold very near it. This period therefore seemed peculiarly proper for a general revision of the state of our coinage. There were besides other circumstances which imperiously recommended the adoption of such a measure: parliament had strongly expressed its opinion that the restriction of the cash payments by the bank should not exist beyond two years, the act which had passed for continuing the restriction being limited to that period, and the general sense of the House having been most decidedly against its further renewal; a confident expectation had also been expressed on all sides that measures should be taken by the bank in the interim to enable them to resume their cash payments when the restriction act ceased, and above all such an influx of light foreign silver was pouring in upon us, that if some means were not used to stop it, the most serious loss and confusion in our circulation must speedily occur. The present moment therefore was on every account the fittest for examining the state of our coinage, and placing it on such a footing as would enable us to return to a metallic currency without being exposed to such inconveniences as the country had experienced in former times. The committee were aware, that there was not any gold coin now in circulation, that the silver of the regular currency of the realm was so worn down and deteriorated, that it was not within 30 per cent. of its nominal value, and that it had been found necessary, to supply the deficiency in our silver coinage by an issue of bank tokens. Under these circumstances it would be difficult and indeed impossible to decide upon the principle on which our new silver coinage should be regulated without taking a view of the state of our general coinage in both the precious metals, and considering what had been, what was, and what ought to be our standard measure of value.

The standard coin of this realm the measure of all exchangeable value, the scale to which all money prices are referred had been originally silver: at the Conquest it was found to be so, and the silver coin then in circulation was of the same standard fineness at which it is now coined: the pound in tale was then equal to the pound in weight of standard silver, divided into 20 shillings, and each shilling into 12 pence or sterlings, each penny weighed one penny weight or 24 grains. This was the division of our money of account, but the only silver coins made were pennies or sterlings. In the reign of Edward 1st, our silver money was first diminished in weight, and it had since, from time to time, undergone various reductions, which altogether amounted to about two-thirds of the original weight (the pound in tale being now less than it was at the Conquest as 32 to 93); the last reduction was in the 43d Elizabeth, when the pound troy was cut into 62 shillings, at which it has remained ever since. Silver till the reign of Edward 3d, with he believed a small exception in the time of Henry 3d, was the only precious metal of which coin had been made in England. Gold was gradually introduced into our circulation as trade and commerce increased and the country became rich and powerful. The original standard of our gold coins was 23 carats 3½ grains fine, ½ a carat grain alloy; this standard continued unvaried till the reign of Henry 8th who introduced the pound troy for weighing the precious metals (instead of the moneyers or Rochelle pound, which was 3 quarters of an ounce lighter than the troy pound) and coined gold at 22 carats fine and 2 carats alloy, which was called crown gold, and is now our gold standard. Gold of both standards however continued to be coined till 1663, and some gold of the old standard (for both standards circulated together) was in circulation as late as the year 1732. As our gold coins increased they became more generally circulated, they were from their first appearance, coin of the realm, their value fixed and frequently changed by proclamations, and they were withdrawn from, or thrown into circulation by the rate at which it was found convenient in the earlier reigns to fix them; at length they were as much the current coin of the realm as the silver coins, and though not considered strictly as the legal standard and equivalent of value they were yet equally received in payments. As the circulation of the gold coins expanded, the difficulty of regulating the relative price of the two metals to each other, as well as the difficulty of regulating the price of the coins to their respective metals began to be seriously felt, and it appeared that considerable alterations had been from time to time made in our gold money, in the hope of keeping the coins of both metals in circulation. James 1st found it necessary in the early part of his reign to diminish the weight of the gold coins to preserve the relative value of the metals. He reduced the Sovereign of 20 shillings of the old standard from 7 dwt. 4 grs. to 6 dwt. 10¼ grains, and he also rose the price of gold twice in the subsequent part of his reign. Charles 2d, in the 15th of his reign diminished the weight of the gold coins still farther. He reduced the Laurel from 5 dwt. 20½ grs. to 5 dwt. 9½ grs. and called it a guinea. The rise in the price of gold from the 2d of James 1st to 15th of Charles 2d, was about 32 per cent.

The guinea coined by Charles 2nd in the year 1663, were denominated 20s. pieces in the mint indenture. But as the public were then disposed to measure the value of every thing that might be sold, by the silver coins, which were in fact the only established legal standard and equivalent of value, so considered in all contracts and bargains, and all mercantile transactions, foreign and domestic, gold coin was not taken at the rate fixed by the mint indenture, but passed according to the price of gold bullion in the market, and the price of gold became so high that the guinea in the year 1695 sold for 30s. The effect of this upon our silver currency was to drive the good heavy milled silver to the melting pot, and to encourage the clipping and defacing the remainder of the silver coins; the greatest inconvenience had consequently been felt, and it became evident that the country suffered the most severe loss from the traffic in the coins of the two precious metals, from the influx of gold and the rate at which it was taken in reference to our silver coins, in settling the accounts of all foreign mercantile transactions. Mr. Locke explains the pernicious effects of these practices in the clearest manner in his "Farther Considerations;" and he attributed the principal cause of the evil to the depreciated state of our silver coins. But the true cause, Mr. Pole said, was, that the two precious metals were equally current, and received in payments as coin of the realm, and that it was impossible to prevent their fluctuation in price, and their throwing thereby the whole circulation of the country into confusion.

When the committee took into their consideration this short view of the history of our circulation, he believed he should be anticipated in his opinion that it could not be expedient to allow the coins of both the precious metals to be equally legal tender, and standard money of the country to an unlimited extent. It had been the opinion of, he believed, all the eminent men who had written upon the subject, that there should be but one standard measure of value. Sir William Petty, Mr. Locke, and Mr. Harris, upon this point had all concurred. Mr. Locke says that money, as the measure of commerce, ought to be kept as steadily and invariably as may be, but this cannot be if your money be made of two metals, whose proportion, and consequently whose price, constantly varies in respect to one another. Sir William Petty declares there can be but one of the two precious metals of gold and silver fit to be a matter of money. Mr. Harris observes, that only one of these metals can be the money or standard measure of commerce in any country. In latter times, after a farther experience of the evils arising from the collision of two standards, from the competition raised between the coins of the two precious metals, these opinions had been strengthened by the writings of Mr. Alcorne and Doctor Adam Smith, the late lord Liverpool, and lastly by the report of the bullion committee. All these authorities had agreed that the standard measure of value, the standard coin of the realm should be composed only of one of the precious metals. He believed, therefore, that it would be universally admitted, that there should be but one standard coin of the realm, to be at once the measure and equivalent of property.

On the next point, namely, what was the fittest metal for that standard, there had been much controversy. Mr. Locke, Mr. Harris, and several very eminent political economists were very decidedly of opinion that silver was the precious metal most proper for the standard coin of the realm. Mr. Locke says it is the money of account and measure of trade all through the world, for all contracts are every where made and accounts kept in silver coin; he is sure they are so in England. But it should be recollected that at the time these great authorities wrote, silver was the declared standard coin of the realm; all sales of land, all mortgages, all contracts were made with reference to the ultimate payment in silver; the most considerable payments in our internal trade were made in it, and our foreign exchanges were regulated by it. Mr. Locke's observation that in England he is sure all contracts are made in it, shows, that he felt it was the received standard of value, and this doubtless had great weight with him. It is remarkable, however, that whenever he mentions silver as the only proper metal for the standard coin of the realm, he contents himself with the mere assertion. He says there are many reasons for it, but he gives none; and it would be difficult to state any quality that makes silver a fit metal for coin which does not in as high or a higher degree belong to gold. Gold is equally homogeneous with silver. It is more precious, takes up less room, and is more durable and certainly has proved to be less fluctuating in value: though this has been controverted, the late lord Liverpool had however satisfactorily, in his opinion, proved it. The same authority expresses an opinion that had Mr. Locke lived in our days he would for the same reasons for which he preferred silver when he wrote, now have given the preference to gold, and that he would have applied his principles to the facts as they now exist, and would have drawn his facts in conformity to them. Upon this part of the subject it would be necessary to examine the history of the great silver coinage in the reign of king William, and to trace the effects which it produced upon our circulation, and also to show the progress of the gold coins and the relative situation of the coins of both the precious metals by the law as it now stands; we should then be enabled to decide which of the precious metals ought to be declared to be the standard measure of value and legal tender for payment without any limitation of amount. The late lord Liverpool states the expense of the great silver coinage commenced in 1695–6 to have been 2,700,000l. and by a valuable document which has been preserved in the New Parliamentary History of England,^* containing the returns from the issues of the exchequer during king William's reign, this estimate appears to be correct. The inconvenience which arose from the mode in which this recoinage was conducted was extremely distressing. The exchange of the new currency for the old lasted several years, and by the regulations for taking in the old money before the new money was coined the country was left with very little silver circulation for a considerable time. It appears by Mr. Locke's writings, that he imagined the new silver coinage would effectually restore the currency to its intrinsic value, and that it would infallibly bring the silver bullion to the mint price, and reduce the value of the gold coin to its proper relative rate to gold. He considered that the rise of the gold coin was principally owing to the silver currency being reduced in weight by clipping and other means so much, that its nominal was become very far above its intrinsic value, and he thought that restoring the silver currency to its original standard of weight, would preserve it, by rendering it impossible for the gold coin to be exchanged for it in the manner in which it had been while the silver was in a course of deterioration. Mr. Lowndes, on the other hand, contended against a coinage of silver upon the ancient standard of weight and fineness; he predicted that the new coin would speedily be exchanged for gold, melted down and withdrawn from the country, but although he maintained that silver was the only proper metal for the standard measure of value, yet he proposed to debase the silver coin by cutting the pound troy into 78 shillings instead of 62, which he considered as the only mode of retaining the coin in the country. Mr. Locke demonstrated that to debase the coin of the realm which was the legal standard of value, and which by law, was at once the measure and equivalent of property, would be to reduce the value of all property, and to defraud every man who had purchased or mortgaged, or to whom money was due under former contracts. In this opinion the legislature appear to have concurred, and the silver coinage was accordingly proceeded upon without any alteration of the standard either in weight or fineness. Mr. Locke certainly was wrong in his opinion, that the restoring the silver coin to its original perfection would reduce the bullion to the mint price, and produce the other good effects he imagined. His opponent, however erroneous he might be in the system he recommended, was certainly more correct on this part of the subject than Mr. Locke.

^*See New Parliamentary History, Vol. V. Appendix, p. ccxlvii.

What he predicted happened. In a very few years after this great silver coinage, which amounted to above 688,000l. the gold had nearly drawn the silver coin out of circulation. Although the legislature had prohibited the sale of guineas at a higher rate than 22 shillings, the gold had purchased up the greater part of the silver, and a very large proportion of the new silver coinage had disappeared. The two precious metals were considered by the public as equally the standard coin of the realm, and as the relative price of those metals continually fluctuated it was impossible coin of both should continue in circulation. The gold being overrated the silver naturally disappeared, and as the silver was at that period most certainly the only standard measure of value by law, and all payments were calculated in it, and as it was also more necessary than gold in the internal traffic of the country, a very considerable alarm was excited by its disappearance. All the distress and difficulty which had been felt previous to 1695 which had caused the great recoinage of silver, began to be again anticipated. Under these circumstances, in the year 1717 the government applied to sir Isaac Newton for his opinion as to the cause of the scarcity of silver coin, and as to the measures which ought to be adopted to keep the remainder of the silver coinage in the country. Sir Isaac, in a very able letter in which he discussed the relative value of gold and silver in every part of the world, gave it as his opinion that the melting down and exporting of the silver coin was occasioned by the gold coin being valued too high, and he recomended the lowering the gold coin as the effectual remedy for the evil. At that period the guinea was sold for 1l. 1s. 6d. and sir Isaac valued it at one pound and sixpence or eightpence; consequently he considered it to be overrated 10d. or a shilling; he proposed, however, that it should only be lowered sixpence as an experiment, and accordingly in December 1717, the guinea was declared by proclamation to be of the value of 21s. and it was ordered it should pass for that sum. This proclamation was the first act of the government which tended to establish gold as the standard measure of value. By common consent it had become the competitor with silver, and, of late years had caused its almost total overthrow. It had nearly driven the whole of the new coinage from the country; and yet, excepting in the cases of the two acts of parliament in 1695, restraining the sale of guineas to 26s. and afterwards to 22s. Gold, from the first coinage of guineas in 1663, had been left entirely out of consideration by government. It is most singular and remarkable, that during all the fluctuations of the price of guineas in the market from 30s. to 21s. 6d. it continues in the mint indenture as a 20s. piece, so that at the time it sold for 30s. and when it was enacted that it should not be sold for more than 26s. and afterwards for more than 22s. it was coined under the great seal by the mint indenture as a 20s. piece; nay, it so remained, when sir Isaac Newton was called upon, and the indenture, which rates it at 21s. is dated in 1718. From the moment however, that the proclamation of 1717 issued, gold became, in fact, the standard measure of value, and has since been always so considered, not only among ourselves, but in our foreign exchanges, and our gold coins have never since fluctuated in their price in circulation. Silver, instead of being a standard, became, as it were, merely an assistant upon gold, and has since been so considered both at home and abroad. Sir Isaac Newton's recommendation respecting the guinea, may be said to have been therefore, the first step towards effectually changing our standard, and limiting it to one of the precious metals, a circumstance which certainly was not in the contemplation of that great man. He appears to have been quite mistaken in his supposition, that lowering the value of the gold coin, would be the means of retaining the silver coin in the country. The fact was, that the silver coin continued to disappear, and has never recovered the shock it received from the ascendancy which the gold coin had attained, before it was declared to be legal tender as before-mentioned. In truth, from the consideration of the question in the year 1717 to the present time, it had been found impracticable to attempt a silver coinage, the dread of the competition of the coins of the two metals if they circulated together as the standard coin of the realm, and as equally legal tenders to an unlimited amount, and the example of the fate of the silver coinage of 1695 prevented the government from such an undertaking, and for a whole century the silver coined had amounted to only 649,000l., and during the fifty-six years of his present majesty's reign but 64,500l. had been issued from the mint in silver coin of the realm; thus the silver became as it were excluded from all large payments, and in its wasted and deteriorated state it was merely used as change for the larger gold coins.

Gold having in the opinion and practice of the public become the standard measure of value, and all our exchanges being calculated by common consent with reference to our gold coins, this coin which had been circulated by tale and not by weight had in the year 1773 become very much diminished in value. It had been much reduced in weight, and by clipping and rubbing had become so light that our exchanges were affected and the attention of parliament was called to the subject. The result was a complete reformation of our gold coinage; all the old gold was called in and recoined, and by legislative enactment and proclamation, the gold coin was in future to be circulated by weight, and could not pass if the guinea was reduced from 5dwts. 9g. the weight at which it stands in the mint indenture, to below 5dwt. 8g. and other coins in proportion. The effect of this measure was speedily felt in a most beneficial manner, and it is mentioned by Dr. Adam Smith, that whereas the exchanges through Europe were all against us before the gold coin was called in, they all turned in our favour the moment the new coin was established and kept to its regular standard weight. Dr. Adam Smith enumerates the countries where this effect was produced, and they comprise all the considerable trading nations of Europe. From this period till the stoppage of cash payments by the bank, there was little or no fluctuation in the prise of gold, and as in practice there was only one standard of value in the country, or in our foreign exchanges, the inconveniences which had formerly been experienced by the difficulty of fixing the relative value of the two precious metals, or from the imperfect state of our coins were no longer felt.

From what he had stated, the committee would perceive, that it was his opinion that gold was in fact the standard coin of the realm, and that it was fit it should be so: that parliament had entertained that opinion was obvious, because the moment the gold coin was reformed in 1774, and the law was established for passing it by weight, an act had been passed declaring silver not to be a legal tender in coin for more than 25l.; beyond that sum it was to be tendered as bullion at the rate of 5s. 2d. per ounce. This was making gold the sole standard to an unlimited amount, and putting the silver merely in the situation, as he had before said, of an attendant upon the gold. This measure was first adopted as an experiment for two years, but it was renewed from time to time. In 1798, the act having expired, the late lord Liverpool advised, that the coining of silver should be prohibited until the whole subject should be fully considered by a committee of the privy council, appointed by his majesty to take into consideration the state of the mint and the coinage of the realm. An act accordingly passed to prohibit the coinage of silver, which is still in force, and next year the act of 1774, limiting silver coin as a legal tender to 25l. was made perpetual. The regular silver coin of the realm having been thus thrown out of circulation, it had become necessary to have recourse to a circulation of silver tokens, which were about 21 per cent. below their nominal value. If the committee agreed with him that there should be but one standard measure of value to an unlimited extent, and that gold should be declared to be the precious metal of which that standard was to be made, it would be necessary to decide with respect to the principle upon which the gold coinage was to be conducted in future; there were, however, upon this subject, opposite opinions. Many persons thought that the gold coinage should be reduced in intrinsic value, by deducting from it the cost of the workmanship, or taking what is called a brassage; this was generally practised abroad, but it had never been done in this country since the reign of Charles 2nd. By the 18th of Charles 2nd, since made perpetual, all bullion brought to the mint by any individual, was returned in coin, weight for weight, without any deduction or charge, and the expense of the coinage was defrayed by government. Many however, were of opinion, that brassage ought to be taken, and among them were Dr. Adam Smith, Mr. Harris, and Mr. Alchorne. But reducing the intrinsic value of the coin, which was declared to be the standard of value, would, in his opinion, be reducing the value of all property, and he should, therefore, propose, to continue the gold coinage precisely on its present footing; indeed, the gold coin of this country was in such repute abroad, that he conceived it would be highly injurious to our interests to make any change in its weight or fineness. It had been suggested to him to coin 20s. gold pieces, but several objections occurred to this measure: 20s. pieces would be so nearly of the value of guineas, that they could not well circulate together. It would, therefore, be necessary, if 20s. pieces were coined, to re-coin all guineas that were brought into circulation. He had no means of ascertaining what number of guineas were in the realm; but if they bore any proportion to the former circulation of gold, the operation of re-coining them would be extremely troublesome and expensive. In the year 1774, the gold in circulation amounted to about 25,500,000l. sterling. It was estimated, in the year 1805, by the late lord Liverpool, that there were thirty millions of gold in the country, and it was known that sixty-seven millions had issued from the mint during the present reign: what part of that immense sum still remained within our shores, it was impossible for him to ascertain. It had been supposed, that most of it had been exported, but whatever remained for circulation must be soon re-coined, if 20s. pieces were issued.

He would now, with the permission of the committee, state the plan, upon which, under all the circumstances of the case, he thought the silver coinage should be conducted. The standard fineness of silver had not been changed since the time of queen Elizabeth, indeed, not since the Conquest, excepting for short periods, when the whole of our monetary system had been deranged. It was eleven ounces two penny weights fine, to eighteen penny weights of alloy; and the pound troy, from 43d Elizabeth to the present time, had been made into sixty-two shillings. No man now, he believed, who understood this subject, would wish to have the weight or the fineness of the silver coin at all changed, if it were to continue the standard coin of the realm to an unlimited extent, though Mr. Lowndes, whom he had before alluded to, proposed to coin the pound troy into seventy-seven shillings. But if gold was declared to be the sole standard of value, and thereby became alone the established coin of the realm in all payments beyond a small sum to be defined, an alteration might take place in the weight of our silver coins, without any detriment to the public: it might be made a coin of change for the convenience of the country, and a legal tender to a limited extent. It was now an admitted fact, that when the exchanges were very much against this country, it was quite impossible to prevent bullion from being exported, and the bullion, which happened to bear the best price abroad, would certainly be sent there. All that could be done was to make the auxiliary coin so low as that it should not go out of the country in ordinary times. Upon this point he had the authority, not only of the late lord Liverpool, but of Dr. Adam Smith, who suggested that it might be enacted that silver should not be a legal tender for more than the change of a guinea, in the same manner as copper is not a legal tender for more than the change of a shilling; this he thinks, if the silver coin was lowered in value, would effectually guard us against gold exchanging for more silver in coin than it would purchase in bullion, and he adds that no creditor would in this case be cheated in consequence of the high valuation of silver in coin, as no creditor can at present be cheated in consequence of the high valuation of copper. If the pound troy of silver were coined into 66s. instead of 62s. and the difference between the two retained as a seignorage, he thought such a coinage would answer all the purposes of change, and the intrinsic value be sufficiently near the nominal value. Cutting the pound troy into 66s. would give a protection to the coin above the bullion of about 6 per cent. Bullion must rise so much above the mint price, before coin could be brought upon a par with it; this, he conceived, would be a sufficient protection, and an adequate means, he hoped, of keeping the new silver coin in circulation; to reduce the weight further, he thought unadvisable, as it would give encouragement to counterfeit coiners—as the principle of the silver coinage would be to circulate it merely for the purposes of internal trade as change for gold, in the same manner as copper coins are now circulated as exchange for silver. He should propose to limit the legal tender of the new silver coinage to two guineas: this, he conceived, would answer every purpose of convenience, and guard against a possibility of any traffic in the coins of the different precious metals, let the relative price of bullion be what it may. The present government silver coinage in circulation was, according to the best infor- mation he could acquire, about 30 per cent. below its nominal value; the bank tokens 21 per cent.: the proposed new coinage would be only 6 per cent. This seignorage of 4 shillings out of 66, would pay the expense of the coinage, which was estimated at 2½ per cent., and leave a profit to government of 3½ per cent.

He came now to the consideration of the most painful and difficult part of the subject, viz. that of the loss which individuals would sustain by withdrawing the present silver coinage out of circulation, and substituting the new coin for it. It was very difficult to ascertain what was the quantity of silver currency at present in circulation exclusive of the bank tokens. In the year 1805, lord Liverpool estimated the amount at 3,960,000l.; an estimate which he thought overrated. In that sum his lordship estimated about a milion sterling of half-crowns, of which he believed there were scarcely any now in circulation. In the reign of king William, Mr. Lowndes estimated the silver coinage at five millions and a half; and though our population was now doubled, he did not think we had more silver in circulation, though in addition to the coin of the realm 3,400,000l. had been issued in bank tokens since 1811. It was to be recollected, that in the reign of king William, silver was a legal tender to an unlimited extent, and large payments were constantly made in it; in those days it was the practice, as it now is in some foreign countries, to pay large sums by weight in bags of silver. Upon the best view he had been able to take on the subject, he was inclined to think that the amount of the silver coin of the realm in circulation was about 2,500,000l.; which with what remained of the 3,400,000l. issued in bank tokens which he estimated at about the same amount, would make the total amount of the silver in circulation perhaps not quite five millions sterling. In providing for the calling in of the old silver, that plan which would be the most rapid in its operation, would undoubtedly be the best. If two millions and a half were coined now, three-fourths in shillings, and one-fourth in sixpences, it would afford a coinage of thirty-seven millions and a half of shillings, and twenty-five millions of sixpences, and, he trusted, that in seven months from the day the act passed, the royal mint might be able to produce these sixty-two and a half millions of pieces. In the year 1696, the royal mint, assisted by four other mints, produced thirty millions of pieces in eleven months, this was an astonishing exertion considering the difficulties that were to be encountered and surmounted, but now such was the improved state of machinery, that at the mint alone he flattered himself they might coin the sixty millions in seven months. In the coinage of 1696, great inconvenience and distress was felt in consequence of all the silver being withdrawn out of circulation. Another great evil arose from the circumstance of a part of the silver being issued while the coinage was going on (the whole coinage lasted four years); for the counterfeit coiners took it as it came out defaced it, and sent it back to the mint as old silver, by which means government sustained an immense loss, and that would be the case in a still greater degree now, if a similar mode were adopted, in consequence of the adroitness which now prevailed in counterfeiting the coin of the realm.

He would now state the plan which he meant to propose; the public had for a very long series of years been left without any regular supply of silver coinage the consequence was, that the coin of the realm, by wearing and the various accidents to which time infallibly renders the precious metals liable, must be very much reduced in its value, and yet the people had no alternative but to receive it in circulation. It would therefore be can extreme hardship to allow them to suffer for what might be called the fault of government; He should therefore feel it his duty to propose the exchange of all the coin of the realm in circulation, however reduced it might be in weight. From the danger of circulating the two precious metals as legal standard coin to an unlimited amount, government had abstained from any coinage of silver for near a century: it was, therefore not surprising, that much base and foreign coin had got into circulation. But it could not be expected that base or foreign coin could be received in exchange for the new coin. In 1696 every thing was received into the mint except base metal and copper washed with silver, and in consequence of this extreme latitude, and the circumstance of the issuing a part of the silver while the coinage was going on, government lost upon that occasion, as he had already stated, above 2,700,000l.; and if the same course were pursued now it would be impossible to calculate the loss that would be sustained. But while on the one hand, he was anxious to preserve the public from so heavy a loss, he was on the other, equally desirous that individuals, particularly those of the poorer classes should suffer as little as possible. It was, he feared however quite impossible to prevent many persons from sustaining a loss from the calling in of the old coin; all that government could do was to make the burthen as light as possible. It would have been a desirable object to have had the whole of the silver coinage prepared and ready for issuing before he came to parliament, because then the exchange could have been made of the new for the old coin, almost instantaneously, and with very little comparative inconvenience to individuals. That plan, however, was impracticable; we were by law prohibited from coining silver at the mint, and there were also other acts of parliament in force which must be repealed before any of the regulations he had stated could take effect; it was, therefore, absolutely necessary to open the case to parliament before any preparation for coinage could be made. With the view, however, to secure individuals as far as possible from loss, it was intended in the exchange of the coins to receive all the silver that could be recognized to be of the coinage of the royal mint to examine what was offered, as such in the most liberal and indulgent manner, and where any doubt existed, to decide in favour of the individual. It might appear difficult to ascertain the genuineness of coin so defaced as ours was, but he believed there were persons who would be able to determine it with tolerable accuracy. For the purpose of still further securing poor persons from loss, it had been suggested to him (and he now threw it out for the consideration of the committee), that it would be advisable to limit the legal tender of shillings to three, and of sixpences to the same number in any one payment from the passing of the act, till the proclamation issued for exchanging the coin, by which means a poor person would not be compelled to receive many of the doubtful shillings or sixpences at one time. If, for instance, a workman had sixteen or eighteen shillings to receive as wages, he would not be under the necessity of taking more than three shillings, or three sixpences, and might demand the rest in tokens, which the bank, of course, would pay on demand.

He wished gentlemen would turn this subject in their minds, and if any other plan occurred to them better calculated to attain the object they had in view, he would listen to it with the greatest attention. With respect to the withdrawing the old coin and substituting the new for it, he did not think it would be attended with any difficulty which might not be overcome by arrangement and method. He should propose that no alteration whatever should take place with respect to our coin of any description, until two millions and a half of the new coin should be ready to issue from the mint, but while the coinage was in progress, proper steps would be taken to enable government to lodge it for the circulation; when it was all prepared it might be exchanged simultaneously all over Great Britain; a proclamation would be issued calling upon all persons to bring in their old coin to be exchanged within a limited time and he had no doubt that in a very few days the transfer might be completely effected. When the new coin got in circulation it would, of course, supersede the bank tokens which would be brought to the mint to be recoined, and which he trusted might be replaced with very great rapidity. According to this plan the committee would see that the inconvenience that would result from withdrawing, the old coin from circulation before the new one was ready for delivery would be avoided. Individuals would not have far to go to get their old coin changed. He hoped that such arrangements would be made as to render it unnecessary for an individual in any case to go more than fifteen or twenty miles for that purpose. It had been said that they ought to issue the new coin during the progress of the coinage, and not to wait till the whole was complete, but he was quite convinced that such a measure would be attended with immense loss to the public, because the new coin would be immediately defaced as it came out, and brought back to be changed as old silver, and it would be impossible to detect the imposture. The proclamation to be issued for exchanging the coin, would limit the period of the exchange; when that period expired, the old coin would be no longer a legal tender, but would be liable to be cut if offered in payment, and the principle upon which the new silver coinage was to circulate, would be enforced from the date of a proclamation to be issued for that purpose. The subject would then be empowered to bring silver bullion to the mint for coinage, as he was under the act of Charles 2nd, but the seignorage of four shillings out of the sixty-six shillings, into which the pound troy was in future to be cut, would be retained from him.

The committee would observe that he had said nothing with respect to Ireland. It was at first intended that 500,000l. of the new coin should be sent to that part of the United Kingdom, but upon consideration that plan was abandoned. In Ireland the bank tokens in circulation were coined by government; they were by act of parliament made a legal tender, in the payment of all taxes and duties till the expiration of the bank restriction; they were then to be received by the tellers of the exchequer, and coins of the realm exchanged; under these circumstances it was not thought necessary to interfere with the circulation of Ireland, till the expiration of the bank restriction act.

He should not trouble the committee any longer, except to thank them for their indulgence. He should be happy to give any explanation that might be required either now or during the many opportunities that would occur while the bill was in progress. If the committee should approve of the resolutions which he should have the honour to propose, he should bring in the bill, move for it to be printed, and then let it lie over for consideration till after the holidays. Mr. Pole then concluded, with moving the following Resolutions: viz. 1. " That it is expedient that all silver coin, plate, or bullion, of silver, in mass, molten, or alloyed, or any manufacture of silver, be permitted to be brought to the mint, in pursuance of any proclamation to be issued by his majesty, and melted and coined into current silver coin of this kingdom, of a standard, in fineness, of eleven ounces two penny weights of fine silver, and eighteen penny weights of alloy, in the pound troy, and in weight, after the rate of sixty-six shillings to every pound troy; and that there be delivered a sum in silver coins, after the rate of sixty-two shillings of the standard fineness and weight aforesaid, for every pound troy of silver so bought; and that, for the defalcation or diminution, and for the charge for assaying, coinage, and waste in coinage, there be retained at the mint the sum of four shillings for every pound troy of such silver, which shall be so brought as aforesaid.

2. " That it is expedient that the silver coin of the realm, heretofore coined and now current, be permitted to be brought to the mint and exchanged for new silver coin, according to the denomination for which such old silver coin shall have heretofore passed.

3. " That, provision be made for defraying the loss arising from the deficiency and re-coinage of the silver coin of the realm, and also the charges and expenses of melting down, casting, assaying, and re-coining the same, and all other expenses incident thereto.

4. " That it is expedient that provision be made for regulating the currency of the gold and silver coins of this realm."

adverted to that part of the speech of the right hon. gentleman, in which he had lightly touched a point of much importance, namely, the assumption that gold coin had, within the last seventeen years, become the standard of value. He entered into some detail of the state of the currency abroad, and of the comparison between the quantity of gold and silver, contending that in England gold was dearer than silver, and consequently of more difficult circulation by 4 per cent. He thought it of, great importance that the country should be aware of the intention to make the gold coin the legal standard of value, and to shut the door against silver being considered so. Certainly gold would be the more perfect standard, if it could be attained; but he feared that silver being more practicable would, in point of fact, be the standard of value, notwithstanding any legislative enactments. Besides, as a silver circulation could be more easily established than one of gold, the resumption of cash payments by the bank could be more conveniently and expeditiously made in the former than in the latter. The number of guineas at present in the country would form but a slight objection to a change he proposed, viz, that of issuing twenty shilling gold pieces, instead of the present guinea. The right hon. gentleman might not know the amount of the gold coin in the country, but he believed it not to exceed half a million.

suggested that the relative value of the copper currency must be affected by the proposed regulation with regard to the new silver coinage.

did not think any evil could arise from the improvement of the relative value of silver to copper. He was strongly of opinion that gold ought to be retained as the general and legal measure of value.

acquiesced in most of the principles he had heard laid down, but could not help expressing his doubts of the success of this measure during the continuance of the bank restriction, unless the bank should adopt a different principle from that on which they had hitherto acted. He apprehended that no precautions would prevent the new coin from being melted. It was a matter of great doubt with him whether, in the present temper and circumstances of the lower orders, this was a favourable period for a new experiment on their peace, or for imposing an additional hardship upon them. He would not press this consideration further, but it was evident that the poorer classes including the small shop-keepers must be the principal sufferers, and he hoped this had not failed to attract due attention on the part of government.

preferred gold to silver as a standard; every body knew that this standard must be arranged by weight, and this could be done with more facility in the one metal than in the other. He also thought that the currency of Ireland might be assimilated to that of England.

complimented Mr. Pole for the manner in which he had introduced this question. He, however, concurred in the opinion of Mr. Horner, that this was not a moment in which panic and alarm should be scattered abroad among the people. The greatest caution should be observed in this respect. He thought that until the bank resumed its cash payments, gold should not be fixed as the only standard.

said, that ministers had not been insensible to the delicacy of the measure under the present circumstances; but it was one, not of choice but of necessity. From the present cheapness of silver, there were no other means of preventing the country from being inundated with fabricated pieces, the continuance of which must daily increase the evil.

The resolutions were then agreed to.