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Commons Chamber

Volume 34: debated on Tuesday 18 June 1816

House of Commons

Tuesday, June 18, 1816

Report on Tithes

reported from the select committee appointed to take into consideration the several petitions which have been presented to the House in this session from certain places in Great Britain and Ireland, upon the subject of Tithes, that they had considered the matters to them referred; and have come to the following Resolutions: 1, " That it is expedient to enable ecclesiastical proprietors of tithes to grant leases thereof, so as to bind their successors under due regulations. 2, That the term of such leases should not exceed 14 years. 3, That such leases should only be granted with the previous consent of the patron and the bishop of the diocese. 4, That the consent of the bishop should not be given until he has been furnished with a certificate upon oath, by a competent surveyor, to be named by such bishop, and to be paid by the contracting parties, that the tithe rent or composition proposed, is a fair and just equivalent for the tithes so to be leased during the term to be granted. 5, That such leases should only be granted to the proprietors of the land. 6, That in any new law to be enacted for this purpose, it would be expedient to define who should be considered the proprie- tors of the land for the purpose of taking such leases. 7, That the leases to such proprietors of lands should be appurtenant to and run with the land in the nature of a real covenant, and that the occupier under the leases now existing shall have the option and the right, on a notice within a year after the date of the lease of the tithes, of retaining the tithes during the continuance of his lease in the land, on payment to the lessee the tithe rent, or a just proportion thereof. 8, That in case of avoidance of the living, by death or otherwise, a proportion of the rent should be paid to the incumbent, or his representative, up to the time of such avoidance. 9, That the said tithe rent or composition should be recoverable by distress, as if the same were a rent charge upon the lands; and that the lessee of the tithes shall have a remedy by distress for the tithe rent, against the occupier agreeing to retain the tithe. 10, That the tithe proprietor should have the option of avoiding the lease, in case the tithe rent be in arrear for three calendar months, after notice in writing demanding the same from the lessee, and the rent not paid, nor sufficient distress found upon the premises. 11, That the tithe proprietor should not be restricted from recovering the tithe rent or composition by due course of law, in the same manner as he may now recover the value of or composition for tithes, where subtracted. 12, That a general form of a lease or grant should be framed; and that no stamp duty should be payable on such lease or grant, unless the tithe rent or composition exceed pounds a year. 13, That the lay owners of impropriate tithes, being tenants for life and for years determinable on a life or lives, or tenants in tail, or tenants in fee, subject to be determined by executory devise or shifting use, have the like power of leasing such tithes for any term not exceeding 14 years. 14, That a like power be given to all corporate bodies, whether lay or spiritual, being owners of impropriate tithes. 15, That no lease shall be valid to bind the successor, reversioner, or remainder man, where any other consideration is given than the annual tithe rent or composition declared in such lease. 16, That the power of leasing tithes, as it at present by law exists, should not be taken away or diminished."

Parliamentary Reform

said, he held in his hands two Pe- titions from Aberdeen, praying for a reform in parliament. Every day's experience confirmed him in the opinion which he had constantly entertained, of the necessity of parliamentary reform. He regretted extremely the apathy which pervaded this part of the country with respect to this subject. He thought this might be in some measure accounted for by the persevering tenacity with which the gentlemen more immediately connected with this measure insisted on a violent and exclusive mode, of reform. He had already stated it as his opinion, that if septennial parliaments were too long, annual parliaments on the other hand were too short. But those who thought annual parliaments the only remedy for our grievances, conceived that those who were not disposed to adopt their remedy, were not so sincerely patriotic as themselves. He could not but express his satisfaction that this subject had been taken up with eagerness by the northern part of the island.

said, that the people had a right to expect that they should be admitted to a participation in the constitution, and would not be satisfied till, by a proper reform, they were admitted to such participation.

entertained the same opinions which he had always held on this subject. He trusted that as the world was now in a state of tranquillity, we should at last turn our attention to the state of the representation.

during the whole period he had had a seat in the House had always strongly supported parliamentary reform: and no time could be more suitable for this object than the present, when the people were called on to submit to such unexampled privations.

expressed his hearty concurrence with those gentlemen who had preceded him. However this cause might be opposed by some, deserted by others, and espoused by persons whose conduct excited no small degree of disgust out of doors, he, for one, should not be induced to abandon it, or to entertain less zealous wishes for its success than his hon. friends beside him.

said, that as from his earliest political life he had uniformly expressed himself in favour of parliamentary reform, and as he had been more and more confirmed in his opinion by all that he had seen during the last 35 years, he concurred most heartily in the sentiments which had fallen from his hon. friends.

said, he held in his hand a petition to the same import, signed by upwards of 10,000 inhabitants of Glasgow, which was no more represented in that House than if that city consisted only of bare walls with thistles growing in the streets. While many places with few or no inhabitants had two, and some even four representatives in the House, that great city had only one-fourth part of a representative in the hon. member below (Mr. Finlay), who, no doubt, very ably represented it and three other boroughs. The petitioners complained of their being spoken of as represented in parliament, and they considered theirs as the strongest case in favour of reform. In Scotland, even in the largest counties, there was nothing in the least resembling a popular representation. The whole country might be represented by persons who had not one foot of land in the country—it might be represented by 45 persons in Changealley. That was a state of representation so monstrous as to call loudly for reform. Whatever sentiments might be entertained respecting reform in the case of England, he had never heard out of the House one single dissentient voice as to the necessity of a reform in Scotland.

The petitions were ordered to lie on the table.

Algerine Pirates

rose, pursuant to notice, to move for a copy of the Treaty concluded by lord Exmouth in the name of the Neapolitan and Sardinian governments with the dey of Algiers. He reproved the terms on which it was understood the treaty had been made, and thought that if the country had sanctioned them with its authority, a great stain would be fixed on her character, and consequences injurious to her reputation and honour, could not fail to arise from such an arrangement. That treaty, he understood, acknowledged the right of depredation exercised by the barbarians, by providing a ransom for the slaves whom they had made. He understood that the Algerines, dissatisfied with their dey for having limited their sphere of plunder, had been only pacified by an assurance from their government, that though they might not cruise against Neapolitan subjects, there still was a wide field open to their enterprise. The Roman states had felt the effect of this new direc- tion given to their piracies. He then described the wretched state of the prisoners taken by the Algerines. In one case, out of 300 prisoners, 50 had died out of ill treatment, the first day of their arrival, and 70 during the first fortnight. The rest were kept in the most miserable situation, being allowed only one pound of bread a day, and subject to the lash from morning till night. No age and no sex was spared. A Neapolitan lady of distinction, carried off with eight children, six of whom still survived, had lately been seen by a British officer, in the 13th year of her captivity. On these grounds, and that it should be seen we did not countenance such proceedings, it was necessary to ascertain what use we had made of our influence in the late negotiations. He concluded by moving, "That there be laid before the House, copies of any treaty concluded with the dey of Algiers, under the sanction and mediation of the British admiral in the Mediterranean, and of all correspondence on the subject."

said, that government were only in possession of part of the documents moved for, as the negociations were not yet terminated. When the whole should be completed, there would be no difficulty in producing the papers: and it would be seen, that every principle of justice and policy had been carefully attended to. He should object to the motion at present, merely on the ground that he did not wish to give partial information on such a subject. He should, however, state, that the cause of humanity had been materially advanced by the negociations which had been carried on, as it was for the first time agreed to by the dey of Algiers, that captives should be considered and treated on the European footing as prisoners of war, and set at liberty at the conclusion of every peace.

said, it was the bounden duty of this country to use all her exertions, consistently with due prudence, towards ridding the world of this horrible and infamous slave trade.

reproved our suffering a nest of pirates to exist in the centre of the world. The treaties which we had hitherto made with those barbarians, consisted of little more than sending them presents, to induce them to suspend their depredations. He thought that the great opportunity of freeing the world from those pirates had been lost last year in the congress. He hoped that every means would be adopted to put them down, and that no treaty would be entered into to recognise, even by implication, the pretended right of the Algerines to plunder.

contended, that two sail of the line would have been sufficient to compel the dey of Algiers to accede to any terms. The city of Algiers was on the sea-shore, the water was deep enough for first rates to come up to the very walls, and those were mounted only with a few pieces of cannon, with the use of which the barbarians were scarcely acquainted. He then described, from his own observation, the horrid state of men of education and fortune, as well as other classes, dragged from their own country, and compelled, by the lash, to perform, in all the intensity of the sun, labours for which men were almost incompetent. That state of slavery, he maintained, might be put down at once. An order to the commander of our fleet to reduce these powers to certain terms would be more effectual than presents or negociations.

thought no convenient opportunity should be neglected to put an end to this system of piracy, the existence of which was very injurious to our character.

said, he did not regret the bringing forward a motion, which had produced an expression of indignation so unanimous at the continuance of this system of piracy. He could not, however, but condemn the treaties which had been concluded, which sanctioned the atrocities of these powers. He agreed that two sail of the line would be better instruments of negociation with these powers than ambassadors. Our maritime force was the real remedy for this crying evil, and a war to reduce these powers to the rules of European states would not be objected to by those who were most hostile to wars. As treaties had been made, he trusted these powers would be kept to their engagements, and if a single Neapolitan or Sardinian vessel was hereafter captured, that our ships would be sent to demand justice, to inflict punishment, and even to carry vengeance among these barbarians. He hoped the Roman coast would not be left open to all the fury of the Algerines, but that our naval force would exert itself to defend that territory, and the other coasts open to the pirates. He trusted, that by our efforts this Christian slave trade would soon be entirely destroyed. As a reason had been given for withholding the information at present, he should withdraw his motion.

—The motion was withdrawn.