thought, that if the bill passed, it would destroy the whole of the whale fishery. He therefore moved, that it be read a third time this day three months.

objected to the bill, which he contended would destroy the whale fishery trade. He also contended, that the gas company would be unable to fulfil the engagements they had made to the public.

defended the bill, and observed that a clause would be added by way of rider, which would oblige the company to present at particular times an account of the state of their funds.

No division took place, and the bill was read a third time.

objected, particularly to the clause enabling the vice-treasurer to sit in parliament. He should not go into the matter at length, but should concern himself chiefly with the clause B. It was not distinctly stated that the deputy to the vice-treasurer should be paid out of the public money. He did not desire any peculiarly strict provision, which might affect the case of sickness or infirmity on the part of the principal; but he objected to making that office a sinecure, and also to the charging on the public the expense of both principal and deputy. The opinion of the House had been shown so clearly, that he could not have expected a proposition to create a new sinecure office, by which the public were to pay the charge both of principal and deputy. He adverted to a resolution of the House in 1810, which was passed notwithstanding the objections of Mr. Perceval, after much discussion. Its tendency was, that all offices should be paid according to the value of the duties performed. In this new office there was in fact little or no responsibility. What possible reason could be assigned for a deputy to the vice-treasurer, unless the object was, to bring the principal away from his duties? The duty of the principal was solely to issue sums out of the exchequer of Ireland: and to that country, therefore, his services ought to be confined. His office was indeed purely ministerial. His business was in Ireland. Bring him here, and then, at perhaps the most important part of the year, his duties must be done by a deputy. As to the vice-treasurer's sitting in that House, it was a new thing to countenance the admission of an additional placeman whose duties had nothing to do with a seat in parliament, but, on the contrary, must be neglected by his sitting there. The hon. member then moved, to insert the words, "other than the deputy aforesaid." The effect of the amendment was to make the principal pay the deputy.

said, that the question immediately before the House did not affect the question of the vice-treasurer's sitting in the House, but only the means of paying the deputy. The question was, whether the salary, now reduced to 2,000l. a-year, was to be farther charged with the expense of the deputy? The deputy might be allowed 1,000l. a-year; but that would fall under the discretion of the treasury. The office of deputy was only intended for necessary purposes in particular cases. The principal would be responsible for all the acts of his deputy. The office of vice-treasurer imposed important duties, and the appointment of a deputy would be of public service.

observed, that as this would be a sinecure during pleasure, it was less reasonable there should be a deputy. He begged the House to remember that they were not going to vote 1,000l. a-year for this deputy, but in reality whatever the treasury chose. If the House thought that the country should be burthened with 1,000l. a-year for the purpose of enabling this officer to sit in parliament, their vote would be accordingly. But this measure had brought ministers into great straits; for either they or the House must eventually be degraded, if it were persevered in.

said, that the vote of the House was not called for in so summary a manner as the right hon. gentle man represented. Ministers had considered it necessary to the well-being of Ireland, and had not called for it simply on account of the salary of the office: they thought that this office should not deprive the House of the aid of a most efficient member, or reduce the benefit to be de rived from him to the more mechanical duties of his office. It would be a prejudice to the public service, and to the government of Ireland, if there were no individual of official rank in that country to aid his majesty's ministers. The right hon. gentleman prided himself while holding an office, because he did not embarrass his deputy: but as he was in the practice of joining his assistance in parliament to the duties of his office, the opposition to a deputy in the present instance came with a very bad grace from him. As to the deputy's salary, it could no where be found that an officer such as the present ever paid his own deputy. At present there appeared to be only the question of the deputy; but that mixed itself with the other, namely, whether an officer with this salary should have a seat in the House or no? for if the deputy were denied, it disposed of the question concerning the seat, as no one could deem it worth his while to pay the deputy out of 2,000l. a-year, and attend to his duties in parliament. He begged the House to consider that Ireland maintained a separate executive government: and while the government was separate, it ought to have an adequate re presentative in that House. He contended that this was no creation of office, but a modification only, and a diminution of expense: it was in fact a measure of public economy. Eight offices compatible with parliamentary duty would be reduced to three. By the union, Ireland was al lowed to have twenty placemen in the House; and now, instead of twenty, there would not be more than seven. The faculty of appointing a deputy was essential to the office; and he did hope that the measure, so far from being considered an encroachment on parliament, would rather be deemed an encroachment on the Crown. If refused it would tend to break down the Irish government in that House altogether.

agreed, that it would be of service to the Irish government, that the vice-treasurer should sit in that House, but he conceived that to oblige this officer to pay his deputy, would not exclude him from the House.

said, it was the duty of the House to be vigilant to prevent an increase of public expenditure, or of the influence of the Crown. But in the present case, he thought the jealousy which had been shown was unfounded. He however respected that jealousy, as it well became the House, which was the chief guardian of public independence, and the only guardian of the public purse. He should attempt to prove that the office created by the bill, did not take any money unnecessarily out of the pocket of the public, nor add any thing unnecessarily to the influence of the Crown. He was glad that an argument which had been used had been abandoned. It had been said that the salary of the office should be large, because it was an office of trust; the definition of an office of trust was, that the holder of it might cheat the public if he would. Now, in this sense the vice-treasurer did not hold an office of trust. The true and manly defence for the office was that of his noble friend, viz. that it was improper to make a further reduction in the official situations of Ireland which had seats in that House. He believed it was agreed on all hands, that some officers of the Crown should have seats in parliament. He should go further and say, that if it was necessary to choose between extremes, he should prefer to allow all officers of the Crown to sit in parliament, than to adopt a measure of general exclusion. A general admission of official persons would be a shock to the constitution, but we should still have the best government in the world; after a general exclusion of the officers of the Crown from that House, the government would not go on for a single day. One reason for the admission of the officers of the Crown was, to explain the measures of the government; but another reason was, to hold up some reward to honourable ambition. This was a principle which had been acted upon by the whig governments of England for near a century, and there was a peculiarity in the state of Ireland which rendered it improper to diminish the number of Irish officers in that House. This he thought was manifest from the increase of the wealth and population of Ireland, and particularly of the political population. By the extension of knowledge, the number of persons in that kingdom, who took an in- terest in politics had increased, and it was not proper to diminish the number of offices, which were open to them as Irishmen. He thought the bill before them had met a hard fate. An addition should have been made to the title of the bill—it should have been also termed "a bill for putting in practice economical reform, and abridging the influence of the Crown." Indeed, he doubted whether the administration which had been supported by the gentlemen opposite, though much entitled to respect, had done so much to diminish that influence by any one measure. The time might come, when, by the change of political circumstances, he might have to congratulate some gentlemen opposite to him, on the acceptance of the new office now under discussion,

"Turno tempus erit magno, cum optaverit emptum,

Intactum Pallanta, et cum spolia ista diemque

Oderit."—

The enemies of the bill would then lament the reduction of the office, and feel sorry for the vote of Monday night; but he hoped they would not be induced to reform and regulate it—that was to say, after their own ideas of reform—by making the possession of it compatible with another office which it was intended to control. As to the influence of the Crown, he thought it a fair subject for a general inquiry and regulation, and not for partial attack and skirmish. He should conclude by giving the clause his unhesitating and sincere vote, a vote unhesitating because sincere, and of which he was as little ashamed, as any enemies of the measure were of their opposition.

said, that though he agreed in some of the general principles laid down by his hon. friend, he did not agree in their application, but if he had confined himself to those fair and serious arguments, he should have had little to object to him; but he had indulged himself in sarcasms against an administration with which he (Mr. Ward) had always acted. Among other topics of ridicule, he had attacked the measure which enabled the auditor of the exchequer to hold the office of first lord of the treasury. When that measure was before the House, his hon. friend had not then found any of those objections, or been illuminated by any of those lights, with which the new company he had kept seemed now to have furnished him. He congratulated his hon. friend on the change which had been wrought, and hoped it would prove beneficial to the country, and to his own character.

explained, that his opinion of the administration alluded to had not changed. As to the particular measure alluded to he had not been in town when it was proposed.

The House divided: for the amendment, 111: against it, 149; majority 38. The bill was then read a third time and passed.

on presenting the report of the select committee appointed to inquire into the Education of the Lower Orders in the Metropolis, communicated to the House an abridged view of the information which was laid more fully on the table of the House. Many facts had been learned by the prosecution of the committee's labours, which had sat several hours a day, and had exerted its powers with much activity. These facts were important in themselves; and while they showed the state of the poor with regard to education, the sums contributed for the purpose of promoting it, and the prejudices that existed on the subject of the application of these funds, evinced the necessity of some change, and led to useful suggestions. There were no less than 120,000 children without the means of education. This deficiency was not confined to children of one description of people or another, but extended to all sects and all descriptions of persons in the lower orders. It was found upon examination, that though the poor were in general anxious for education, yet in some cases they objected to send their children to school, for the purpose of letting them out to common beggars. From 2,000 to 4,000 were in this situation; and out of this number came most of those juvenile depredators who swelled the calendar of Newgate. In such cases forcible interference between the parent and child, whose morals the parent was corrupting, might be resorted to. He now came to the state of education in the metropolis, and the remedy proposed for its defects. There being about 120,000 children in London wholly without the means of education, it became the House to consider if they would allow this state of things to continue or would take some measures for its correction. In the mean time they would find in the examinations of the committee much useful information. It had inquired into all the charity-schools, parish schools, subscription schools, Sunday schools, &c. established for the lower orders in the metropolis. But the committee had not rested here. They had gone higher, and conceiving, though the commission under which they acted did not necessarily lead them to any inquiries concerning the management of the higher schools, yet that it authorized them to include these schools at their discretion; and conceiving likewise that some reports that had gone abroad concerning them required either to be confirmed or disproved, they called before them the officers and heads of the Charter-house, Christ's hospital, Westminster, &c. and had examined them accordingly. To begin with Christ's hospital, which was the largest establishment, he would state a few facts concerning it. The annual income of that establishment was 44,000l., and the expenditure was nearly as great. These funds were emloyed in boarding, clothing, masters' salaries, &c. in apprenticing some, in sending others to the navy, and in establishing some scholarships at the university. By the original rules of this institution, it was destined for the education of the children of the lower orders only; and it had been complained of, that persons not requiring charitable assistance had been admitted, to the exclusion of others who did. The committee had examined eight cases in which this departure from the laws of the establishment was said to have taken place. Five of these they had found to be perfectly groundless; and as only three remained with suspicious or unexplained circumstances, they thought it surprising that in so great an establishment there should have been so few apparent abuses. The Charter-house had revenues of 24,000l., and its expenditure was nearly as large. Though by its original institution the poorer classes were alone admissible, this rule was not observed. He did not mean to state that the parents of the children on the foundation were rich, although they belonged not to that class of society that was called the poorer order. They were generally the sons of gentlemen of respectable rank, but small incomes. The king's scholars at Westminster were on a similar foundation. The boys might be either of the richer or poorer classes; but here there was a vast improvement introduced into the rules of admission. Boys were placed on the foundation, not from any regard to the circumstances of their relatives, but from respect to their own merits. As to St. Paul's, the salaries of this establishment were good, and the funds were large, being 6,000l. a year. The complement of boys was limited to 152, from some whimsical regard to a text of scripture that described a draught of fishes in a net as amounting to that number. He had stated thus much with regard to these establishments, to correct a report that had gone abroad, that the poor were excluded from any participation in funds that were originally destined for their use. But the principal part of the labours of the committee consisted in their examination of evidence as to the number and condition of the charity and parish schools destined for the education of the lower orders. The number of such institutions exceeded any thing that could have been previously believed, and was highly creditable to the benevolence of the country. Even at a season of general distress, the funds derived from contributions for the great end of education had been found undiminished; but the committee was forced often to acknowledge and lament that the expenditure of these funds had neither been so pure nor so judicious as the intentions of the contributors were laudable and fervent. Instead of being employed in educating great numbers with the great sums raised, those who managed expended them, in boarding, clothing, and bringing up a few, leaving the rest totally without the means of education. There could not be a greater mistake than to suppose that a certain sum could be more beneficially expended in supporting a small number, than in educating a great number who could not otherwise obtain the means of instruction; but he was afraid there could be no remedy expected from legislative interference, as these funds were managed by trustees who objected to any change. Circulars had been sent to the heads of schools to the amount of between 80 and 90; and, from the information collected, it appeared that 18,000l. distributed among a certain number of charitable establishments, only educated 3,000 children, including clothes, &c.; whereas upon the new plan this sum would be sufficient for educating 30,000. The objection to a change which thus might be effected arose, not from the contributors, but the trustees of these charities, who had an interest in the continuance of the present system.—There was another class of schools which might be regulated by parliament—he meant establishments created by public charitable donations. He mentioned several instances of abuse in charities left for the general purposes of education. No instances of flagrant abuse occurred in London; but he had received many communications on the subject from different parts of the country. He stated one flagrant case where 1,500l. which was left for the endowment of a school, was managed by the lord of the manor, who appointed his own brother schoolmaster with a large salary, while he again shifted the duties to a deputy schoolmaster, in the person of a joiner, with the small income of 40l. a year, and left this ignorant person to educate the children. By various accounts he had received, 70,000l. might be stated as the sum to which the charities he alluded to might amount in all; and there was every reason to believe that little benefit was now derived from them in administering the blessings of education. This deserved inquiry. Abuses were known, but they were not properly denounced. It became a question how this could be done, and information obtained. A committee above stairs was inadequate for the task, as it could not examine on oath; and as it would be impossible, or very expensive to call up persons from all parts of the country to give evidence, the only remedy was, to appoint a commission with power to go from place to place, and examine witnesses upon the spot. More money would be saved to the country, or dedicated to its most important interests—education, than would be expended by such a commission. He had no desire to create new places, or to aggravate the public burthens, but he would propose that this commission should be paid for its labours, as the only means of ensuring its activity, and bringing it under the control of the House. The business required dispatch, and dispatch or diligence could not be enforced upon gratuitous commissioners. The Irish committee of inquiry into the courts of justice had sat for 14 years; and though they had made some able reports, such delay would not suit the present case. Lord St. Vincent's commission was paid, and had been extremely useful. With all the love of sinecures manifested by ministers, they could not make this a sinecure. The country would probably require no grants from parliament for the purpose of advancing education, but it was the opinion of the committee that the metropolis would. Assistance, however, should not be communicated as an annual grant, but merely in aid of private charity, to build schools, to prepare rooms, &c. Another difficulty was the steering clear of religious differences, which were daily subsiding An emulation in well-doing, rather than a contention for superiority, might be expected.

complimented the learned gentleman on having devoted so much of his valuable time to the laudable objects of the report. There could be little doubt that abuses existed in many of the charities for the purposes of education: and hence the necessity for the exercise of a vigilant superintendence of their administration from time to time. He thought there would be no great difficulty in the next session of appointing a committee for examining into the administration of the charities of the country.

was convinced that the labours of the committee would prove highly useful.

alluded to what had been done in Ireland by the commission there appointed. That commission had delivered in 13 reports; and in 1813 a bill was brought in, founded on these reports, by which a variety of the grossest abuses had been remedied, and he had no doubt that the effect would be highly beneficial to the rising generation of Ireland.

said, that while engaged in framing the charitable donation bill, he had received a variety of letters from respectable clergymen in different parts of the country, stating abuses which, to their knowledge, existed in charitable foundations for education.

begged leave to suggest, whether the process of inquiry might not be beneficially set on foot immediately, without waiting till the next session.

was desirous of expressing the satisfaction he derived from the able and candid speech of the learned mover: but what he rose for chiefly was, to advert to the suggestion that had fallen from his hon. friend. Some alarm had been excited by the committee extending their inquiries to the great public establishments for education: he, for one, had in some degree participated in that alarm; but he was agreeably disappointed by the statement of the learned gentleman, which had entirely removed it. But out of that very alarm grew a wish, that the report should be widely circulated, and the minds of people familiarized with the evidence, before any proceeding was had by the. House. He should contribute all his assistance to the object of the report, satisfied that the foundation of good order in society was good morals, and that the foundation of good morals was education.

After some further observations from Mr. W. Smith, general Thornton, Mr. Babington, and Mr. Brougham, the report was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. Mr. Brougham then gave notice, that early in the next session, he should bring the matter of the report before the House.