said, that among the many evils that would result from postponing the Grand Jury Presentment bill, there was none that would be more felt than the want of the regulations therein proposed for treasurers and collectors of public money; before, however, he adverted particularly to that object, he would take the liberty of making a few observations upon other matters connected with it. And first he would once more, and once for all, deny that he had exceeded his duty in bringing forward a comprehensive measure; the very words of the report of the committee recommended a comprehensive measure. One great evil arising from the grand jury laws as they stand was the want of a previous examination into the necessity or expediency of the works proposed to be executed. This part of the evil was proposed to be remedied by submitting these matters to a previous meeting of magistrates—the principal objections he had heard to this part of the bill was as to the power given to magistrates in some cases to cancel such proposed presentments as they did not approve; this might have been a very fit subject of discussion in a committee; his opinion had been hitherto governed by the idea that if there was no power given to these meetings they would not be attended by the principal gentlemen whose presence was so desirable.—The next part of the subject he would notice was the proposed meeting of the grand jury for the consideration of the civil business of the country, disentangled from the criminal business and other important matters; the difference of opinion that he had found on this part of the subject was as to the time, some thinking that it should be before, and others after the general assize business—this also would have been it matter for discussion in a committee; his reason for preferring the former was, that by that means they should have the advantage of the control of the judges, without inconvenience to those personages. With respect to the circuit surveyor which was recommended, and whose appointment was to be independent of grand juries, his idea was to place all buildings of any importance and all other matters from which jobs usually arose, such as laying out roads, cutting down hills, &c. under his control—one objection that he had heard to this appointment was, that it would not be in the power of any surveyor to go through the labour; to which he begged leave to answer by referring to the report of the surveyor on the Highland Roads, by which it appeared that a Mr. Mitchell, a surveyor, reported upon 3,000 miles of roads and bridges in one year; no circuit surveyor in Ireland would have one fourth of that labour to go through—it was owing to the want of a responsible office of this description that plans were bad, estimates inadequate, public works badly executed, and that in numberless instances private convenience was preferred to public advantage.—With respect to the printing work done for the use of grand juries, he had observed so much inaccuracy, such a total dereliction of the form enjoined by law, that he had had it in contemplation by the bill to recommend printing work to be done by the king's printer; he was however aware that this, in many instances would be a severe privation to local printers, and it was his intention to have altered this clause in the committee; he was the more induced to this as there were printed forms annexed to the bill which could not be mistaken or misunderstood.—Another measure recommended by the bill was the permitting grand juries to appoint a county attorney whose duty it should be to superintend the taking of recognizances and to defend traverses under the direction of grand juries; the losses which were sustained by the public on this account were immense, in nine times out of ten, roads running through persons grounds, instead of doing that person an injury rendered him an essential service, and vet by the traverser employing counsel, and there being no power in a grand jury to employ a legal person on the part of the count}', the jury were imposed on, and the country suffered accordingly—As many misrepresentations had gone abroad as to his reason of withdrawing the bill, he felt it right to state, that as he thought he perceived much more activity (with some gratifying exceptions however) among the opponents to the bill than among its supporters, he had thought it his duty to apply to a certain quarter to see how and whether the bill was likely to be countenanced: finding himself discouraged there, he thought it better to withdraw the bill for the present, rather than give the House or himself what appeared useless trouble.—As to the proposal made by the bill to require the monies of the different counties to be paid into the bank of Ireland, there were many flimsy objections made to it, and particularly by the treasurers—they ask at whose risk is the money to be transmitted? I answer, at the risk of the treasurer; why should there be more difficulty in a treasurer remitting money to a bank than there is in a private agent who remits any sum under his own responsibility, and whose difficulties are so much greater from his receiving the money in small sums.—He came now to the subject of defaulting treasurers and collectors; three of the former, as he was informed, had failed in the past year, and as to the latter, he would refer to a printed paper he held in his hand, which contained an advertisement from the city of Cork, in which the grand jury held out the names of four defaulting collectors to the amount of upwards of 14,000l. at the last assizes; and it appeared by the advertisement they allowed one of these collectors his poundage to the amount of 500l. though his collection was not complete, and this in the very teeth of an act of parliament. He also held in his hand a schedule of the presentments levied under the direction of grand juries last summer assizes, in which appeared the following items:—"To George Biggs, esq. attorney, for sueing Henry Lysaght, late high constable, for an arrear due by him to the county 98l. 3s 9d. To same, for the like, in sueing Mountiford Longfield as security for do. 44l. 12s 5d. To same, for the like, in sueing William Starkey, late high constable, 103l. 0s. 7d. To same, for the like, in sueing William Warner, high constable of Bantry, and his sureties, 75l. 6s 2½." Amounting in the whole to the sum of 321l. 2s 11½d. Now, how stood this matter? This gentleman, after making a handsome annuity for some time out of the law proceedings, would probably recover nothing, and thus in the first instance the original sums would be lost, the enormous bills of cost would be lost, and the sums owing by those defaulting collectors would be levied over again from the public; if these were not evils and abuses he did not know what could be called so.—Mr. Cooper also took occasion to notice what appeared to him

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an enormous job, the giving a Mr. Colbourne 1,000l. fine and 300l. per annum for a house merely to make a grand jury room, which he was well informed was not worth more than 200l. fine and 70l. per annum.—As to the bill which it was proposed to him to bring in, besides his dislike to the bringing in a minor measure, he really thought if he was to undertake it, the probability was, they would have no act this session; he thought the best way was for those who proposed such a proceeding to him to undertake the bill themselves; in their hands it would succeed, in his it would be frittered away, and in the end it would be laid at his door, that there was not any improvement of the law this session. He begged leave to move, that an humble address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent for "a return of the names of the treasurers and collectors of public money in the several counties, counties of cities, and counties of towns, in Ireland, who have made default in their several collections and payments, from the 1st of January 1810, to the present time; distinguishing the sums for which they severally made default, with the amount of any sums which have been recovered from such persons, or their sureties respectively, with the names of such sureties; also the amount of any bills of cost which have been presented by any grand jury in Ireland, from the first of January 1810, to the present time, either on account or otherwise, upon any legal proceedings instituted for the recovery of, the sums due by such persons so in default, or their sureties."

said, that he had advised the hon. member to withdraw his bill under the idea, that if the very voluminous bill which did so much credit to the hon. member's talents had gone into a committee, and had been found impracticable, so much time would have been lost, that there would have been no possibility of remedying the inconveniencies complained of during the present session. He had thought it advisable to wait till the hon. member should determine whether he, would again bring forward the subject in another shape. He regretted that the hon. member had given up the subject for the present. He was, however, happy to say, that his right hon. friend (Mr. V. Fitzgerald) intended to bring forward a bill to remedy the abuses complained of. He thought a bill in the nature of an experimental measure, was better than a sud- den abolition of the whole grand jury system in Ireland.

supported the motion, and thought some measure highly necessary.

declared his opinion of the necessity of reforming the system of grand jury presentments, which operated as grievous and unjust taxes on the counties; but he did not think any good would be done till the sheriffs who appointed the grand juries were themselves nominated in a more unexceptionable way. The sheriffs were not nominated, as in England, from the recommendation of the grand panel, but for electioneering purposes, and the sheriff so appointed secured the influence of the ministerial candidate by appointing grand jurymen as a matter of favour. He inculcated the necessity of resorting to the system established in this country.

denied that at present the sheriffs in Ireland were appointed for party purposes. The out going sheriff gave three names of persons of respectability to the judges at the assizes, and soon after the chancellor and judges met to chat over together who were the fittest persons to serve the office. He denied also, especially in the county to which he belonged, that persons were chosen on grand juries for the purpose of jobbing.

thought it extraordinary to reject a bill before it had been examined by a committee; and, though he was glad that any bill was to be introduced, he hoped his hon. friend would proceed next session. With respect to the appointment of sheriff, though a change had been promised, he did not find any improvement, for the judges still took the names from the outgoing sheriff. He hoped that this would be altered, for the existing sheriff would always name those who were in the interest from which he had derived his own appointment.

felt it necessary, as he had given a pledge to the House last session, that steps should be taken as to the appointment of sheriffs, to explain what had actually been done. On his return to Ireland, he had communicated with the lord chancellor on the subject, and directions had been given that the judges on the assizes should return three fit persons to serve the office of sheriff, from each county, This had been done, and in almost every case the first on the list had been appointed. In no instance had any party considera- tions biassed the choice—for instance, in the county which the gallant general (Mathew) represented, three persons had been returned by the judges. He (Mr. P.) wrote to the first on the list to say, that the lord lieutenant intended to appoint him sheriff. He declined—to the second and third. Far from consulting any party interest, a letter was written to the first on the list, that the writ would be made out for him, and he was obliged to serve. The returns of the names of the three persons had sometimes been made by the outgoing sheriff, but that was not always the case. Though thus much had been done, so convinced was he of the necessity of putting the system on an unobjectionable footing, that he had written to the lord chancellor of Ireland, as to the expediency of advising the lord lieutenant to instruct the judges to return persons recommended by the grand panel of the counties. The reform in their appointments would, he was convinced, confer an important benefit on Ireland.

said, he had heard with great satisfaction the statement of the right hon. gentleman, and thought it would be a great step towards the improvement of the state of Ireland.

said, that much more had been done by the Irish government on this subject in a short time than could be expected. He thought it very proper, that the bill entirely changing the system of grand jury presentments, had not been pressed through the House without mature consideration, which could not be afforded. He advised the hon. member to bring his measure forward early in the next session, to attract the attention of the British part of the representatives, without which his efforts would probably be frustrated. The right hon. gentleman described the arrangements which he thought necessary, with a view to provide for the due execution of the law respecting grand jury presentments, and to guard against any faults or defaults on the part of county treasurers. These arrangements were; first, that security should be had from all county treasurers to the full amount of the sums which they were to receive, and that such securities should be examined and approved of by the law officers of the Crown, while the securities for barony treasurers should be examined and approved of by some subordinate authority;—2ndly, that no one who was to account to a grand jury should be allowed to act as a grand juror;—3dly, that a longer previous notice should be given of every presentment; and 4thly that an assistant judge should be appointed on each circuit, for the purpose of considering and urging all traverses, &c. with respect to presentments, and in his opinion, the accounts of expenditure upon presentments, as well as the presentments themselves, should be subject to be traversed. Such an appointment would, he was aware, increase the patronage of the Crown over the Irish bar, which patronage was already quite enough. But the appointment was indispensable to the due execution of the law, for the judges were at present unable to attend to this department, and as to the expense of the appointments to which he referred, it would not exceed for all Ireland 2,000l a year.

objected to the provisions of the bill which had been withdrawn, as well as to some arrangements proposed by the right hon. gentleman who spoke last.

strongly recommended a general survey of the land in Ireland, with a view to the fair execution of the law with respect to presentments.

concurred in this recommendation, and while he highly approved of the principles of the law with regard to grand jury presentments, expressed his regret to find that this law, was very much abused. The amount of the assessments under grand jury presentments was considerable, and as those assessments bore very hard upon the occupiers of land, or the peasantry, it was peculiarly necessary to provide that such assessments should not be improperly applied. Mow he understood, that even within the last year, no less than three county treasurers had failed, while their securities were found inefficient to supply their defaults. This was a serious grievance, which, however, had long been suffered to prevail in Ireland. There were, indeed, great defaults in that country among public accountants, which were due for many years, and which he feared were never likely to be received, especially from the improvident manner in which securities had been arranged by those Crown lawyers whose duty it was to attend to such subjects.

maintained that the system of grand jury presentments was highly advantageous to Ireland in promoting its internal improvement.

expressed his con- currence in the views of Mr. M. Fitzgerald, but thought the arrangements he proposed required consideration. As to the appointment of an assistant judge to attend to the business of presentments, he himself had suggested the necessity of such an appointment in his evidence before the committee upon the subject of presentments three years ago. But he had proposed some propositions with regard to the question before the House which he intended to submit to its consideration on Friday se'nnight, and therefore he gave notice of a motion for that day.

rose, to move the order of the day, that the House resolve itself into a committee to take into consideration the Employment of the Poor bill. He had introduced a considerable number of amendments into the bill, which he thought would remove some of the objections stated against the measure. He would not enter at present into the merits of those amendments, as a better opportunity would hereafter occur.

had, at the introduction of this measure, expressed some difficulties he felt on the subject. He feared those difficulties were still unremoved. He would willingly give the right hon. gentleman an opportunity of forwarding his bill, and reserve his remarks till it was recommitted; but a few prominent objections he wished at this time to state. First, as to the constitutional objections to the measure, he did think it extremely objectionable that a million and three-fourths of money should be issued by the government to the people at a time when we were upon the eve of an event which would call upon the people to exercise their judgment respecting the character and measures of that government—he meant a dissolution of parliament, which would probably take place a few months after their rising. A second objection was as to the principle of the bill itself. It was a remedy for an evil not felt, while it afforded no remedy of the real evil that was universally and deeply felt. It was not money that was wanted; there was a superabundance of money in the country, but no employment for it. This bill only offered money, but could not find employment for the idle capital already in the country. Not only would the bill afford no remedy, but it would increase the difficulty at present felt. He had at first thought that the only effect of the measure would be to increase the funds of loans, and thus to facilitate borrowing: he was now not of that opinion, because the capital of the country was not to be increased by 1,750,000l.; it was only interposing the credit of government to facilitate loans. Now, the security to be exacted, he thought, would prevent any application for loans of this kind. If, indeed, the security usually required by government were not required in this case—if the government should be satisfied with such security as a private person would require—the objection was removed; but if not, he was convinced no person would apply for loans from the government which he could procure on easier terms from private persons. But if this objection were removed, still there was no real increase of capital. It was only one individual going round about to another individual to obtain a loan of capital already in the country. He did not say that there was no way of explaining the measure so as to remove those objections; yet even if they were explained, the proposed relief would be found quite inadequate. These observations he had made, from a sincere wish to promote any good that the measure might effect, and by no means with an intention to retard it by captious objections.

said, he had not been in the House when this measure was originally brought forward, but, from the fullest consideration which he was able to give it, he could see no advantage whatever that it was capable of producing; but he saw very many objections to it. The remark of his hon. and learned friend, with respect to the influence it would throw into the hands of government, in the event of a general election, he thought well worthy of consideration. One million and three-fourths distributed by ministers might certainly tend to create influence, and excite a bias that ought to be guarded against. But he felt other objections to the measure. First, it would excite expectations that must be miserably disappointed. The lower classes were naturally induced by the proposal of relief from government, to look for immediate and effectual deliverance from their present difficulties. This expectation could not be realized, and therefore the measure would cause only a cruel disappointment. Besides, it taught the poor to look at their more opulent neighbours, and to view them as, in fact, the prevention of relief being extended to them by the go- vernment. The upper classes were thus placed in a painful situation. The poor wished to obtain 20, 30, or 40,000l.; nothing was wanting but security. Would the House say that it was advisable to give security in such a case? The poorer classes would therefore feel great disappointment, and ascribe that disappointment to their richer neighbours. It could not, indeed, be supposed that any individuals could be found to give their security, but it was proposed to have the poor-rates mortgaged. This he thought objectionable in two points of view: first, it increased the pressure of the poor-rates, by making them the means of borrowing; next, it threw a temptation in the way of occupiers of land, to relieve themselves by mortgaging the poor-rates. This consideration he thought very material. The increasing amount of the poor-rates was most alarming; and whatever could facilitate that increase, was of all things to be deprecated. If once the system was introduced of mortgaging those rates, in vain would they expect any remedy of the evil. As to that part of the measure which related to public works, he thought it quite unavailing. His hon. and learned friend's statement, that it was not capital but employment for it that was wanting, was unanswerable. There was no capital wanting for agriculture, for commerce, for manufacturers. Nor was the project applicable, if capital were wanting.

admitted, that the objections stated by the hon. and learned gentleman were not entirely removed by any thing that was done, and could not be removed by any thing that could be done; but as to the constitutional objection, if should be recollected that the money was not to be issued by his majesty's ministers individually; and the apprehension of exercising any influence through the commissioners was removed by the independent and honourable character of those commissioners. He would not now enter into the minor details, but he would mention that there were several clauses, introduced for authorizing to dispense, in certain cases, with private security, for special securities of various kinds. The general principle, of the measure was, not to help those who had already credit or capital, but to give relief where there was a temporary deficiency of credit. This was in many instances the case. Whether it was occasioned, or whether it was increased, by the usury laws, he would not at present inquire. That there was great difficulty in procuring capital for promising undertakings was too notorious to require illustration.

thought the object of this measure was of the narrowest kind; and the benefit must, therefore, be likewise very narrow. The principal benefit proposed was to supply public works with capital, where it was wanting. The undertakings which required such aid were not many. If any undertaking was really promising, capital would readily be lent upon the credit of it. For such, therefore, it was not necessary to interpose the credit of government; for those of a different character it was improper to interpose it. The evil at the present moment was too much capital. This was proved by the price of exchequer bills and the state of the funds. It was not capital, therefore, that was wanting; still Jess was it credit. Whatever could by this measure be got from government, could, upon the same security, be got from the market. In no way possible could this measure produce any effect, unless the amount of the exchequer bills were reduced, and they were thrown without any charge of interest into the currency of the country, If 1,750,000l. were thus all at once added to our present currency it would have some effect. He did not at all speak of the policy, or impolicy, of such a measure; he only said, that in no other way could the proposed interposition produce any beneficial effect. He gave the right hon. gentleman credit for benevolent intentions; but, from the first moment he heard of this project, he was convinced it could produce no public benefit.

observed, that, after the appointment of commissioners, and commissioners of the highest character, it would be bold and enterprising indeed in the chancellor of the exchequer, or the secretary for foreign affairs, to apply to those commissioners for the promotion of any political purposes. As to what the hon. member for Essex had said, respecting the danger of charging persons with poor-rates in consequence of this measure, who would not otherwise be liable, he thought that, though some cases of this sort might happen, there could not be many. In most instances, recourse to the poor-rates could be avoided; but in some cases personal security upon the poor-rates would be required. To extend credit in this way would be of great use. There were cases within his own knowledge in which the benefit of it would be sensibly felt. He did not allude to public works: but as to public works, too, it would be of much benefit. Money could be readily obtained from private individuals, where there was a prospect of returning it in two, three, or four months; but it was not possible to obtain it upon the same terms for two, three or four years. On this account, therefore, the credit given by government would be most beneficial. The measure would, he was convinced, do great good, and occasion no inconvenience.

explained, that he by no means apprehended any sinister influence on the part of the commissioners. The money could not be issued all at once; the election might take place while the commissioners were sitting; many persons would intend to-make application and expect assistance; in such a state of things an influence would necessarily be in operation, which the principles of our constitution required us to regard with jealousy.

could not view any constitutional danger in the measure. It was not in issuing the money that he saw difficulty and danger, but in paying it back again. He was thoroughly convinced the object of the bill would totally fail. To large companies no assistance would be given, for they had already enough of capital. He understood the right hon. gentleman had abandoned the idea of taking private personal security; of this he approved. If the government could come in with private creditors, and issue extents to recover its claims, the evil would be most serious. The government would have a preference over the other creditors, and thus throw them out of their original station. He believed the hon. member for Essex had made extremely just observations on the effect of the measure, in aggravating the pressure of the poor-rates, Is effect in this view was most mischievous. It would prevent the possibility of reducing or alleviating this corroding evil. If the occupiers of land could expect relief by mortgaging the poor-rates, there would be mutual forbearance, mutual arrangements, mutual agreements, and mutual evasions, so as to destroy the best interests of the poorer classes. Wherever security could be given, that was, wherever distress was not extreme, we should do what we could. Where relief was indispensable, it was ra- ther a national concern, and national relief should be afforded; but in general, rather than increase the corroding evil that now formed such an alarming part of the national distress, he thought, if he might use the expression, that "we ought to work out our own salvation."

explained, that personal security was not abandoned; it was only put under certain modifications.