inquired of the noble lord opposite, whether the Mr. George Manners, whose appointment to be his majesty's consul to a foreign state had lately appeared in the Gazette, was the same George Manners who had been for some years, in London, the editor of the most slanderous and infamous publication in the land, "The Satirist:" who had stood on the floor of the King's-bench, and received the sentence of the court for a slanderous attack on a private individual?

declared, that he had no knowledge that the individual in question had been subjected to any prosecution whatever.

could assure the noble lord, from his own knowledge, that if that George Manners was the same as the editor of "The Satirist," he had been tried and imprisoned for slander. He admitted, at the same time, that the said Manners had always been in favour of the noble lord, and had supported his politics.

in rising to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, said, he felt gratified in standing before an audience who were but of one mind on this subject. His object was, by proposing an address to the Crown, to give weight to the exertions of the executive power in its negotiations with foreign states. He lamented to say, that in the instance of powers which had already declared their intention to abolish the Slave Trade, there were no appearances that they were disposed to carry that intention into effect; and that even subjects of some of the powers which had abolished the traffic were engaged in carrying it on. He was sorry to be obliged to state, that even under the flag of America, which, to its honor, was the first power which set the example of the abolition, the trade was carried on; and there was reason to suppose that American property and also American subjects were engaged in it. In the colonies which had been restored to France, the trade had also been carried on, though it was to be stated, to the honour of the French government, that a governor who had sanctioned, and perhaps to some extent participated in the traffic, had been turned out of his office. But at Goree and Senegal the trade had been carried on to a great extent; and as the native princes had not been in the practice of collecting slaves by war, they made up cargoes of their domestic slaves. In one instance only, on the gold coast, had he heard of the slave trade being carried on under the auspices of Holland; and he had heard of no charge of the sort against Denmark and Sweden. But the great evil, in comparison of which all others sunk into insignificance, was the trade as carried on by Portugal and Spain. And even the trade of Portugal which confined its devastation to the north of the Line, was small compared with the ravages of the Spaniards. When he contemplated the whole conduct of Spain on the subject of the slave trade, he could not sufficiently express his wonder, that a great and high-minded and spirited people, which had made such efforts for its own liberation, should lend itself to the devastation and slavery of a whole continent. Till we abolished the slave trade we had been in the habit of supplying Spain with slaves, and an article in a celebrated treaty stipulated for our privilege of being the carriers of Spain in this traffic. It now appeared from the conduct of Spain, as if they almost intended to ridicule our efforts for the amelioration of the state of Africa. It was known that we had chosen a certain part of the coast of Africa, on which we made efforts to introduce a relish for the enjoyments of civilized life, and to carry on this good work it was absolutely necessary to secure it against the ravages of the slave trade. To this end we stipulated with Portugal, that she should confine her trade to the north of the Line. France, before she abolished the trade, made the same stipulation. In the negotiations with Spain, that power also conceded that she would confine the trade to a certain part of the coast. But when Spain had to point out the particular portion of the coast, she chose the very portion which we had selected for our efforts for civilization. This was an insult almost too great for an independent nation to bear. It was was supposed at first that this choice of Spain originated in mistake, but when the effect of her conduct was pointed out, she seemed to cling the more closely to it. Even in the paper which gave notice of this choice of the king of Spain, as if to ridicule us, it was boasted that he was entitled to the praise of Great Britain. All the consequences which had been predicted had happened. Great numbers of real Spaniards filled the coast, and greater numbers of others under the flag of Spain. In places where schools had been established, and efforts had been made to induce the chieftains to supply their demands for European comforts by peaceful industry and legitimate commerce, there the Spaniards now came to persuade the little princes to return to their old habits, and supply themselves more expeditiously with European luxuries by selling their subjects or making war on their neighbours. Tribe was set against tribe, village against village, and family against family. Even an individual would crouch like a tyger in a thicket to spring forth on a defenceless woman, to seize her and drag her to captivity. When thirty years ago, the barbarities of the slave trade were brought before the House, though it was not immediately abolished, an act was passed to alleviate the sufferings of the slaves in the middle passage. At present, however, ships were crowded beyond all precedent. In a letter from sir James Yeo, it was stated that in a vessel of 120 tons there had been conveyed 600 slaves. In one of the examinations before a committee of the House, a captain of a slave ship had been asked whether the slaves (of whom he had carried 450 in a ship of 230 or 240 tons) enjoyed comfort, said, they enjoyed tolerable comfort; but being asked whether they had room to lie on their backs, he said they had not. What idea of comfort this person had it was difficult to conceive; but if 450 slaves had not room to lie on their backs in a ship of 240 tons, what would be the condition of the 600 slaves in a ship of 120 tons? He should also read and affidavit of lieutenant Eike, in the case of a ship taken by his majesty's ship Cumberland:—"Affidavit of Lieutenant James Eike, sworn 17th of March, 1815, allowed by the court to be exhibited, in which he deposes, that on the 15th of February last he went on board the San Joaquin), as prize-master, and continued on board her some days after her arrival in Simon's Bay, which was on the 19th of the said month; that he remained on board until the slaves were landed by virtue of a decree from the court, and was actually superintending and assisting in their disembarkation; that when he first went on board, he was informed that the said vessel had left Mosambique only 22 days, at which time every person onboard, was in good health, and that 13 of the slaves had died during that period; that between the capture and their arrival in Simon's Bay, the survivors were all of them sickly and weak, and nearly 100 of them afficted with the flux; that medical aid was afforded to those who required it; that the brig appears to have been built for a privateer, and for fast sailing, not for stowage; that the slaves were all stowed together, perfectly naked, and nothing but rough unplaned planks to crouch down upon, in a hold situated over their water and provisions, the place being little more than two feet in height, and the space allowed to each slave being so small, that it was impossible for them to avoid touching and pressing upon those immediately surrounding; the greatest part of them were fastened, some three together, by one leg each, in heavy iron shackles, a very large proportion of them having the flux; that they were compelled to perform their natural evacuations under these dreadful circumstances, without being able to move, and to remain amidst their own excrement, which could not be cleared away until the said slaves were all disembarked; that between the 19th and 24th days of their being landed, 13 more died, notwithstanding good provisions, medical aid, and kind treatment, and 30 more died between the 24th of February and the 16th of March instant, all occasioned, as he in his conscience verily believes, and is firmly persuaded, by the cruel and inhuman treatment of the Portuguese owners; that more than 100 of them were, at the time of their landing, just like skeletons covered with skin, and moving by slow machinery, hardly maintaining the appearance of animated human beings; that the remainder were all of them enervated, and in a sickly state; he says that the pilot, upon being asked by captain Baker, how many he supposed would have reached the place of their destination alive, replied, about half the number that were embarked; that from the time of seizure, till the said slaves were landed, the Portuguese owners fed and attended them, giving them two meals each day, one at seven in the morning, the other at five in the evening, but never allowing to each person more than half a pint of water at each meal; he lastly says, that he never saw brute beasts treated with such cruelty as the slaves on board the San Joaquim were treated by their aforesaid owners."—As the persons engaged in this illicit traffic were apprehensive of being taken, they constructed vessels not calculated for stowage, but for fast sailing, and the miseries of the un-happy beings were increased. It would be seen that in three weeks or a month all this mortality had taken place. In another instance it had been stated, that of 540 negroes embarked, 340 had died. It was not the mere bodily pain these wretched beings suffered, crowded thus together in bulk between the tropics; men who had never been at sea before, and collected from different countries. These details were horrid to relate, but he recollected the saying of a right hon. gentleman, whose loss he deplored, that humanity did not consist in a squeamish ear, but in a feeling heart. The sentiment spoke its author, and made it superfluous to name Mr. Fox. Of the multitude of deaths which took place, it had been stated, that more were occasioned by broken hearts than by bodily disease. Of the slaves procured by the Spaniards, the greater part were sent to Havannah. By a paper which had been obtained by the cortes, it appeared, that there had been imported into that colony in 11 years, from 1799 to 1811, about 110,000, or 10,000 slaves a year; and in the three last years, the importation had been much greater—even amounting to 25,000 a year. The pretence, therefore, that the Spanish colonies were denuded of slaves, was entirely without foundation. They had provided for themselves most amply. The Spanish and Portuguese flags formed also a cover for the illicit traders of other nations. It had been decided also, by high authority, that it was law, that though Portuguese vessels might be found trading for slaves, in parts which they had renounced the right to trade to, they could not he made a prize, unless they had intruded on our possessions. The ships of Spain when questioned, often defended themselves, or anticipated attack by aggression; they had indeed committed acts of piracy of the most flagrant kind. They had driven away the native merchants from the coast, to keep it clear for their horrible traffic, and to prevent the intrusion or interference of strangers. Every consideration impelled us to stop a traffic like this. If it were not put an end to, any hope for our colonies selling their produce beyond our own possessions would be at an end. He should not hesitate, if the two powers would not put an end to the slave trade, to advise a recourse to an expedient the prospect of which had been held out, viz. a treaty with the great powers of Europe to prevent the purchase of colonial produce from colonies of those states which had not abolished the slave trade. In negociations on this subject, we should always be ready to admit that we had ourselves been heretofore eminently criminal, and to express our remorse at our former conduct. While he lamented the attempts to revive the slave trade in many places, he could not but be proud of the distinguished spirit and feeling which many individual Englishmen had shown to their own personal hazard and inconvenience to repress this disgraceful traffic. He alluded to the transactions in the islands near the cape (Mauritius and Madagascar), and to the neighbourhood of Java, where the late governor himself, Raffles, had joined in the efforts for suppressing the trade, which had converted some fertile and once happy islands into scenes of devastation. He alluded with pleasure also to the exertions of captain Curran, who had released many wretches in a situation equally afflicting with that which he had before described, and which he would not again repeat. On the Western coast of Africa the same disposition had been shown by colonel Chiswell, at Goree; and at Sierra-Leone, that excellent man governor Macarthy had extended the advantages of civilization to a considerable extent. By the last advices he learnt that 1463 Negro children were in a course of education there. He had before he sat down, to declare that his departed right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt), the want of whose support he now so much felt, had always been impressed with the necessity of following up to the fullest extent possible, the civilization of Africa; that after the injuries Europe had inflicted on it, we should not stop short with the mere act of abolition, but as far as was possible, promote the industry, improvement, its cruelly oppressed this was the decided Pitt, he begged to acquaint the House in as solemn a manner as if he were upon oath. Mr. W. concluded with moving, "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, most humbly to represent to his royal highness, that, in bringing to a close the other business of this session, a great and important duty still remains to be performed by parliament, that of again submitting to his royal highness, in the most dutiful but urgent terms, the expression of our continued and unceasing solicitude for the universal and final abolition of the African slave trade: "That we are grateful for the efforts already made, and for the progress which we have had the happiness to witness, in the achievement of this great work: That we rejoice that, in all his majesty's dominions, this wickedness is now for ever proscribed, and that our laws have stigmatized it by severe and ignominious punishment: "That we have seen, with unspeakable satisfaction, that so many of the other nations, under whose flag this criminal traffic had formerly been protected, had now joined in the same prohibition, and have contracted with his majesty, and with each other, the obligation of persevering in it, as in a duty from which they never can be released: and that our confident expectations of the universal adoption of that prohibition have been greatly confirmed and strengthened by that memorable declaration which was promulgated by the plenipotentiaries of all the principal powers of Europe, assembled in their general congress; a declaration which well became the just and powerful sovereigns in whose names it was issued; proclaiming to their subjects and to the world, their deliberate conviction, that "the African slave trade is repugnant to the principles of humanity and of universal morality;" and adding to that avowal, the gracious and solemn assurance of their earnest desire "to put an end to a scourge which has so long desolated Africa, degraded Europe, and afflicted humanity: "That we must indeed deeply regret, that practices acknowledged to be of such a character should, even for an hour, be continued, and even tolerated under the sanction of any civilized and christian government; but that it is impossible for us to doubt of that ultimate determination by which these crimes and miseries will finally be terminated: this engagement has been deliberately taken, and publicly and unequivocally announced, and its performance is imperiously required by every motive of interest, and of honour, of humanity, and of justice: "That we beg leave, however, with all humility, to represent to his Royal Highness, that the actual attainment of this great object can alone discharge our country from the obligation of pursuing it with unremitted attention, and with daily increasing earnestness; and that we cannot disguise from ourselves the painful cer- tainty, that the intermediate suspense and delay not only prolong, but greatly augment, the evil which we are thus labouring to remedy: "That it appears to us but too notorious, that these crimes, hitherto partially checked by the prohibition of so many just governments, and by the abhorrence of all good men, are now again renewed, and are carried on with fresh, and continually increasing activity; that many of the subjects of those powers which have concurred in the abolition, are found, nevertheless, still to pursue the same nefarious course: that the stipulations by which other governments have consented to put limits to this evil, stipulations purchased by this country at the price of large sacrifices, are constantly, and almost openly disregarded, while the protection of the only remaining flag under which this wickedness can now be carried on without limit or restraint, and the intervention of the only nation to which its continuance is indiscriminately permitted, are used, not merely to protect this horrible traffic in the extent to which that people formerly pursued it, but as a sanction to its indefinite increase in their hands, and as a cover for the breach of the laws by which' all other civilized communities have restrained their subjects from embarking in it: "That, in humbly submitting these painful circumstances to the humane and enlightened consideration of his royal highness, we are sure it cannot be requisite to dwell upon the other and great evils which they necessarily involve: that this state of things has led, by manifest and necessary consequence, to a system of armed defiance and outrage, a system utterly destructive of all peaceful commerce insulting to legitimate authority, and, in its effects and consequences, little, if at all, short of open piracy: that this system also impedes, or rather it altogether frustrates, the just and benevolent endeavours of those powers, who are labouring to introduce among the natives of Africa the arts, and habits of civilized life; is productive of perpetual contest and irritation, leading not unfrequently to open violence between his majesty's ships and subjects, and those of the sovereigns in amity and alliance with this country; and continually endangers even those relations, the maintenance of which is of the utmost moment to their interests and to ours, as well as to the general repose and tranquillity of Europe: "To represent to his Royal Highness, that being deeply impressed with the magnitude of all these considerations, we earnestly intreat his Royal Highness, that he will be pleased to pursue with unremitted activity, those negotiations into which he has already entered on this most momentous subject; that he will establish for this purpose the most effective concert with those sovereigns, whose just and benevolent principles respecting it, have already been announced to the world in concurrence with his own; and that he will leave no effort untried to bring the present evils to a speedy and immediate termination, and thereby to prevent the future and still greater mischiefs which their continuance must inevitably produce: "That we confidently hope that his Royal highness's urgent but friendly representations will produce their desired effect; yet that in justice to the great interests that are at stake, we cannot but feel it our indispensable duty, to express our confident expectation, that if all his Royal Highness's amicable endeavours should prove unavailing, the great powers which, at the congress of Vienna, so honourably announced to the world their abhorrence of the slave trade, as radically unjust and cruel, will deem themselves compelled by an over-ruling sense of duty, to adopt, however reluctantly, such a course of commercial policy, as, without infringing on the just rights of any other nation, will alone prevent their indirectly, but powerfully, contributing to the continued existence of this inhuman traffic: "That there is one important truth, which we beg leave most earnestly to press on his Royal Highness's most serious attention, a truth which painful experience has too fully taught us, that, however strong may be the prohibitions of the slave trade, and with how great sincerity soever they may be issued, they will prove practically inefficient, unless some general concert for ascertaining and bringing to punishment the offending parties, be mutually established between the several powers, under whose flags this trade has been, or may be, carried on: "That we must once more declare to his Royal Highness, that in enforcing these considerations on his Royal Highness's most serious attention, we are actuated not merely by the feelings of humanity, but by the positive dictates of duty and conscience: that it is by these motives, and not as claiming any superiority in point of humanity or of morals, that we are actuated in our earnest desires to obtain the co-operation of all other civilized nations: that, remembering how long and how largely this country contributed to augment the miseries, and perpetuate the barbarism of Africa, we cannot but esteem ourselves specially and peculiarly bound, not to leave that vast continent in its present degraded state, but to endeavour, so far as we may be able, both by our own conduct, and in concert with other powers, to repair the wrongs we have inflicted, by opening the way for the diffusion of those blessings which, under the favour of Providence, a legitimate commerce, and a friendly intercourse with the enlightened nations of Europe, cannot fail to introduce in their train."

complimented his hon. friend on his steady perseverance in the great cause in which he had so distinguished himself. He assured him that ministers were fully disposed to second him, and had not slept at their posts. Entirely concurring with him, that till arrangements were formed for carrying into complete effect the abolition by all the powers of Europe, the measure would not be productive of that good which the humane policy of this country and the benevolent views of the other powers expected from it, government was stimulated to every exertion for procuring the consent of the only two states that now exclusively conducted the traffic. Much had already been done by this country, much had been done by congress, and much had been done by those two powers themselves; but while one state still disgraced its flag by carrying on so cruel a trade, the evils of the system would be partially increased, and rendered more cruel and atrocious by being combined with resistance and piracy. Ministers had been active in negociations, not only with the governments of Portugal and Spain, but with the other powers who signed the treaty of Paris, and who exerted themselves towards the accomplishment of the same object. He felt a difficulty in entering on the subject, as he could not state the progress already made in coming towards an understanding with the two reluctant powers, without a danger of prejudicing pending negociations; while, at the same time, he allowed that parliament had a right to know all that could safely be disclosed. He would not therefore at present enter into the subject but he hoped that, by the beginning of next session, the negociations now going on would be brought to such an issue as would enable him to lay them fully before the House. He flattered himself with the hope that the conclusion of them would be satisfactory; but if they should turn out to be otherwise, his hon. friend would again bring forward the subject. Even if ministers should succeed in their endeavours to the full extent of their hopes, it might be proper at that time to inquire by a committee into the whole question, and to take into view what had been done, and what still remained to be accomplished. He therefore hoped, that in refusing to enter into the subject at greater length at present, his hon. friend would not suspect him of a design to discourage his efforts. Though, on account of what he had stated, he should abstain from farther discussion, he would not oppose the address of his hon. friend, because it expressed the sentiments of his majesty's government.

had no objection to the address of his hon. friend, and wished it all the success that he could hope from it. The noble lord now seemed to recommend to his hon. friend the advice which he gave him four years ago—to move for a committee. A committee always appeared to him the best mode of accomplishing what could be accomplished, and of realizing whatever could be realized. Though the evils of the slave trade were great and undeniable, yet he thought there was a drawback on the measure for carrying the abolition into effect. There had been a species of wholesale legislation on this subject, which had been productive of pernicious consequences. No control was established over those who seconded the zeal of the country in stopping this nefarious traffic; and the result was, that much individual oppression had been produced. He had presented a petition about three years ago from three individuals, complaining of abuse in the exercise of the powers intrusted to officers under the abolition acts. The substance of them was at first denied. It was needless to recapitulate the circumstances. Three persons established on the Rio Pongas had been dragged from their settlements to Sierra Leone, there tried by a surgeon, condemned to fourteen years banishment in Botany Bay, and sent to Portsmouth, to be from thence transported. From that place they transmitted to him a petition, which he presented to the Prince Regent, through the noble secretary for the colo- nies, who had attended to it, and ordered the oppressed individuals to be liberated. One of them had since brought his action in the King's-bench, and recovered 1,000l. damages for false imprisonment, and 19,000l. as compensation for the loss of property. These persons had not been concerned in the slave trade as was pretended. If such practices were allowed, the evils resulting from the execution of the abolition act would only be equalled by the traffic it was intended to abolish.

would not have obtruded himself at all on the attention of the House, had it not been owing to the statement of his hon. friend, which, if it went forth to the country uncontradicted, might produce pernicious effects. His hon. friend had launched a most extraordinary charge against all the abolitionists, and against himself as one of them, as dealing in wholesale legislation. He did not understand the meaning of this epithet, when applied to laws for carrying the abolition into effect. In all legislation, the remedy should be co-extensive with the evil to be prevented, or the dangers apprehended. The laws on this subject proceeded no farther; they described the offence, and prescribed the punishment of it wherever found. To limit the punishment to a particular place, when the offence might be general, might, to follow the figure of his hon. friend, be retail legislation; but it would be partial and inefficient. If he meant that such laws should be partial, there was, undoubtedly, some foundation for his charge of enacting wholesale measures. The law of the 51st of the king, which he had the honour to introduce, had two objects in view: 1st.; to prevent trading in slaves, by declaring the act a felony any where within the British dominions; and, 2dly, to prevent trading in slaves by British subjects any where, either in the British dominions or not. To apply this law to the case mentioned by his hon. friend, it happened that Cooke and his associates had been engaged in the skive trade at Rio Pongas, which was beyond the limits of our colony of Sierra Leone. A military force was sent to observe their conduct, and to learn if; they were British subjects, with instructions to apprehend them if they were. The information they received was, that they were British subjects; and this was not contradicted till after their apprehension. Cooke was tried at Sierra Leone, and the judge, as had been stated, happen- ed to be a surgeon. It often must occur in the colonies that persons, professionally qualified for particular offices, could not be found when their services were required. Intervals would occur between the death of one judge and the arrival of another; and the public business could not stand still. The gentleman who presided on this occasion was a man of good education and respectable character. Cooke was convicted of slave dealing, and sentenced accordingly, as a British subject. He believed he did not plead guilty, but he admitted that he was a British subject.—The defence that he was an American citizen was an afterthought, and did not occur to him till he arrived in England. It was well known by those who knew the proceedings of prize courts, that men frequently became Americans or English as best suited their purpose. Being therefore considered as a British subject, he was guilty of a felony under the act of the 51st of the king, though the slave-dealing was carried on beyond the limits of the British territory. He (Mr. B.) however admitted, that the court had not jurisdiction. By an oversight in the act which he had brought in, it was founded on a statute of William which had been repealed. Neither he nor any lawyer in Westminster-hall was aware that the statute of William had been repealed; nor was the circumstance known to Mr. Stephen, the master in chancery, who knew more about the acts relative to colonies than all the lawyers in Westminster-hall put together. By this oversight the court of Sierra Leone had not jurisdiction; though it was still made a question, whether or not the act of 51st of the king did not call into existence so much of the repealed statute of William as it referred to; and which, by being revived, would give the former validity. On this ground alone, was Cooke released; a release to which he did not object, as, if there was any doubt, the accused should have the benefit of it. But no part of these proceedings could possibly prejudice the character of colonel Maxwell; for, with the information which had been laid before him, he would not have been justified in abstaining from taking steps to bring the offenders to justice. The more this transaction was sifted the more blameless would the conduct of this meritorious individual appear.—When his hon. friend, therefore, boasted of the verdict which had been obtained in a recent trial, it might be proper to re- collect, that the damages given were subject to a reference; that they were taken as stated in the declaration, and might be cut down to the lowest possible sum. With regard to that portion of the verdict which referred to the subject of imprisonment, and the amount of which was 1,000l., he deeply regretted the necessity which had occasioned it. He meant no reflection on the court or jury; a technical nicety had rendered it necessary that a verdict should pass against the defendant, but it could neither set up the character of Mr. Cooke nor degrade that of colonel Maxwell. He could not avoid taking the present opportunity of expressing a confident hope, equal indeed to an expectation, that government, under these circumstances, would not suffer him to go with out compensation for the pecuniary loss which he had sustained.—Having thus answered the sort of episode which had been introduced into the discussion by his hon. friend, he had now a very few observations to address to the principal matter under consideration. He certainly did not entertain the same sanguine hopes of inducing Spain and Portugal to abandon these detestable practices, which had been expressed by his hon. friend in the speech with which he prefaced the present motion, and by the noble lord in his explanation. If the effectual abolition of all these enormous evils was contemplated, there appeared to him to be but one method of accomplishing the object—the adoption of some arrangement among the greater powers of Europe, which should establish a mutual right of search. This was the only way of guarding against evasion, and defeating the sophistry of the doctors of Salamanca and Coimbra, in construing or expounding treaties. Although it might be regarded as introducing a new principle of national law, it was imperiously required by the urgency of the case; for without such a regulation, there would be little security that Spain and Portugal would observe their public declarations, whilst there was still less that individuals would not evade them.

thought it right to observe, that whatever progress had been made in carrying the abolition into effect, none of the difficulties which had been experienced were attributable to those who had originally opposed it. On the contrary, many of them, both at home and in the West Indies, had been earnest and active in their endeavours to assist the execution of the law. He was not sanguine enough to expect any very favourable result from the negotiations which the address was intended to promote.

expressed his satisfaction at hearing the accurate explanation made by the hon. and learned gentleman relative to the circumstances of colonel Maxwell's conduct. He rose for the purpose of stating, that government had already signified to that gentleman that the whole of the expenses incurred in the late trial would be defrayed by the public.

concurred in opinion with an hon. and learned gentleman that some international regulation could alone effectuate an entire abolition of the slave trade. If the noble lord, the proudest moment of whose life was when he procured from the principal sovereigns of Europe, in the congress at Vienna, a sentence of condemnation against this practice, should follow up that proceeding by some measure that might carry it into effect, the reputation of his name would be as lasting as the principles of humanity and justice.

alluded to a charge against this country, which was sometimes gravely and sometimes sarcastically made by foreigners, and particularly by the French, of our being actuated by selfish motives in our exertions to procure a universal relinquishment of this trade; and of our having ceased to carry it on ourselves only when it was no longer necessary to our colonial interests. Bold as this accusation was, it was directly contrary to the fact; and it was rather singular, that at this moment the French West India colonies were more saturated with slaves than our own.

did not believe there was a single wise and honourable individual on the continent, who entertained such suspicions of the motives of this country in abolishing the slave trade as had been mentioned by the last speaker. With respect to the motion before the House, he owned he did not entertain such sanguine hopes as some seemed to do, of the influence of this country over Spain. Looking to the conduct of Spain in all her negotiations he had little expectation of any beneficial result. Spain would consent to nothing into the granting of which she was not driven.

was of opinion, that the suggestion of prohibiting the colonial produce of Spain and Portugal, would, if acted on, expose this country, which must be the greatest gainer by such a proceeding, to a still stronger suspicion of being actuated by selfish motives. He thought it important, that some alteration should be made in the instructions given to naval officers with regard to the capture of slave ships. A great number of these vessels had been condemned at Sierra Leone, and all the judgments except three had been reversed by the court of admiralty in this country. When the judgment was affirmed, the captors received 30l. or 40l. for each slave: but when restitution was decreed, not less than 75l. was ordered to be paid to the parties appealing against the decision of the colonial court. This was a most extraordinary situation for us to be placed in; the original cost of a slave was about 5l. 10s., and the trader knew that if his vessel was condemned at Sierra Leone, he should obtain ample compensation in London. Was it possible to conceive a more powerful stimulus to the continuance and extension of the trade? The first step for the purpose of applying a remedy to this evil was, in his opinion, to render the instructions issued to naval officers more consonant to the decisions of the court of admiralty. He was happy in giving his support to the address, and in expressing his hope that a termination of this dreadful traffic was not very far distant.

rose, to call the attention of the House, to the Finance Resolutions which he had already moved, but the debate on which had been hitherto, from various circumstances unavoidably delayed. On this subject, he had in the first place to state to the House, that in the first of those resolutions he now found that a great mistake was committed on his part. It was therefore his intention to move that the first resolution be withdrawn, for the purpose of substituting another. The mistake to which he alluded arose from his not being aware that Irish treasury bills to the amount of above 4,000,000l. had been paid off during the present year. In that part of the resolution which stated the amount of the unfunded debt, he duce of Spain and Portugal, would, if made 12,600,000l. the amount of the ad- dition made to that part of the debt, for exchequer and treasury bills issued this session. The hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. C. Grant, jun.) who had also moved a set of resolutions, made the whole amount of this branch, 1,300,000l. less. The mode in which the hon. gentleman did this, was, as he apprehended, by supposing that the new issues of exchequer bills would be strictly applied to pay off those outstanding: and if this were taken for granted, then he must admit that the hon. gentleman was right. By referring to the votes of the House, it appeared that the total amount of the supplies granted in the course of the year, was 64,336,000l. To meet this, the gross amount of the ways and means as stated in what was commonly called the budget, was 64,141,000l. leaving a deficiency as compared with the supplies of 195,000l. From the exchequer bill account produced to the House last month, it appeared that a sum of 583,000l. must have been paid off from some quarter. Where this sum was taken from he knew not, unless it was from the ways and means—[Here the chancellor of the exchequer said, across the table, that this sum had been paid off before.] If it had been paid off before, it certainly ought not to be stated as outstanding on the 5th of January. It appeared, however, that the whole sum between the hon. gentleman and himself was no more than 1,300,000l., which certainly in this case, was hardly worth talking about. In opposing the funded to the unfunded debt, it was to be recollected, in one point of view, how immaterial the difference was, since all that now appeared under the head of unfunded would, some time or other, come to be added to the funded debt. As to the navy and transport debt, he considered it to be a sort of running account between the government and the contractors; and it was highly necessary for the country to know whether the sum of 1,660,000l. of the navy and transport debt was now actually paid off. His whole object in these resolutions was, to bring a few questions of finance into such a point of view as to make them intelligible to any one; for the truth was, that nine persons out of ten were not in any degree conversant with those questions. But if he had made a mistake his resolutions had at least produced one good effect. He had to congratulate himself and the country on having at least been the means of bringing out a set of resolutions from the other side of the House, which showed the real state of the funded and unfunded debt. The effect generally produced on the minds of members, was, when they saw any balance on the budget in its favour, that this would be a surplus really applicable to pay off the public debt. On this subject, he had therefore thought it necessary to have a resolution. The receipts of the ways and means of last year had not produced more than 5,115,000l. above the sums required for the service of the year; and a great part of that sum arrears of property tax. This was before stated with the consolidated fund; but this year it was put with the ways and means. The truth was, it had nothing to do with the consolidated fund. On this account there was an extraordinary receipt of 2,028,000l., which would not occur again. In the report of the committee of finance, it was stated, that the arrears of the property-tax might be required to meet the expenses of this year and of the next. How this was made out, he did not know. It was material, therefore, to have a resolution which would shew, that although it appeared that there was a surplus of 1,660,000l. applicable to the paying off one part of the debt, yet that, in fact, there had been paid a sum of more than two millions out of what in reality were our assets.—The next resolution went to say, that, assuming the revenue of this year equal to that of the last, there would be an excess of charge to the amount of 3,521,200l. The only object which he had in view by these resolutions was, that the truth should come out. The finance committee stated, that their way of estimating the revenue of this year was, by taking the year 1815, which was a year of extraordinary productiveness, and comparing it with this year, which was one of extraordinary unproductiveness. The committee said, too, that the second year of peace would be equal to the average of the three last years of war; and, in proof of this, they referred to what had taken place at the termination of the American war. This was really very fallacious. There was no analogy whatever between the present state of the country and that in which it was at the end of the American war, in 1783. The American war, during its continuance, had produced nothing but distress to the country; whereas, the late war had, on the contrary, been the cause of much prosperity. During the American war we lost all our trade; but in the late war we gained the trade of the whole world. There was, therefore, not the least reason to assume, that because the revenue was in a flourishing state in the first years of peace after the American war, that the same would now be the case. For his own part, he had all along argued, that when peace came it would be impossible for us to keep up our taxes. The chancellor of the exchequer had constantly maintained an opposite opinion, and it was now to be seen which of them was right. His last resolution was given with the view of illustrating the preceding. It was to be noticed how the consolidated fund stood this year. The whole surplus of it up to the 5th of April, had been voted as part of the ways and means of the year; so that there remained only three quarters of it. He should, perhaps, be told, that as this was the case, the whole of the charges on it were paid out of this; and although he must admit this, yet unless the whole year was stated altogether, one quarter with another, the consolidated fund was not fairly dealt with, and there would be the three bad quarters for the one good one. The quarter ending the 5th of July was the worst one, and upon it, in the present year, there was a deficiency of 725,000l., leaving out Ireland. This great deficiency shewed the fallacy, of estimating the produce of the revenue in the years of peace by the average of three years of war. There was certainly a great deficiency in the revenue this quarter—as much perhaps as 3,000,000l. and then the revenue would not be sufficient to pay the interest of the national debt. He did not say this as meaning that there was any danger to the creditors of the nation; but to shew that parliament must not think lightly of it. It was, however, said, that the distress was only temporary. If this were the case, there surely was never any temporary distress of such long continuance; and, what was most alarming was, that it was getting worse and worse every day. Even on the showing of the finance committee themselves, the presumption was, that the produce of the revenue would not be adequate to the payment of the interest of the national debt, and that in order to pay the interest, recourse must be had to borrowing. As matters now stood, parliament would separate without having made any arrangement for the payment of the interest of the national debt. He had now generally stated the topics embraced in his resolutions; and, whatever inaccuracies might have crept into them, he rejoiced that they had produced the effect of inducing the hon. gentleman opposite to apply his talents to this subject; and he hoped that hon. gentleman would continue annually to produce resolutions of the same nature with those which he had now laid before the House. If this were done, it would enable them to go on intelligibly from year to year. He believed that no country was ever in such a state as we now were. That the national credit should be improving, and the price of stocks increasing, at the very same time when the revenue was falling off from hour to hour, seemed most extraordinary. The price of stocks was higher now than when the revenue was daily increasing at such a rate that the exchequer was hardly able to contain it. He did not by any means impute blame to the right hon. gentleman opposite for issuing exchequer bills, although they certainly had been issued to an extraordinary amount. What was the amount of exchequer bills which could really be borne by the market, could not be very exactly stated. But the mode pursued by government in setting a premium on them, he understood to be this—they fixed a premium, below which they said they would not sell them, and if they did not get them sold at that premium, they could have the money in the meantime from the bank. The natural consequence of this was to leave us at the mercy of the bank. Next year there would be a great trial of strength between government and the bank, for then cash payments were to be resumed; then would be 17,000,000l. exchequer bills outstanding; it was impossible that the bank could make issues to such an amount in specie as it had done in notes. The House had lately heard that the distress in the country was at the highest pitch—that every one wished to borrow, and no one was able to lend. All this, however, which was then denied, was now adduced as a proof of the prosperous state of the country. Trade of every kind was in a state of complete stagnation, and the merchant having no other way to dispose of his capital, laid it out in the money market and bought exchequer bills, because he could buy nothing else. This system was carried on to the utmost extent. Bankers made a most inexcusable use of the money of their customers, by laying it out in the purchase of stock. Every banker thus become what was, in the city phrase, called "a Bull." This was, at best, a most dangerous speculation;—the effect, in the mean time was, to raise the price of stocks. But, supposing should revive, they would sell out at the price of the day, which would then probably be low enough. The chancellor of the exchequer had, some time since, come down to the House and said, that money was so plenty, that they could lend out a million and a half on good security. Out of this 1,500,000l. he now understood the regent's canal company was to have 200,000l.—What he wished principally to press upon the House was, that all this apparent temporary prosperity was not to be built upon. At present, the revenue was daily decreasing, and the price of stocks rising, The whole financial situation of the country as it now stood, presented an unnatural state of things. He was the last man who would hold out a desponding tone. The state of the harvest was good; and it was his firm conviction that affairs would, at no distant period, assume a better aspect. But the only way of bringing matters about would be, to create, if possible, a more productive revenue; nothing else would meet the exigencies of the state. The revenue, he thought, would shortly be recruited, though not to the extent that would be necessary to equalize the revenue and the expenditure. But supposing the best case, and that trade should revive, it would take a considerable time before the return of prosperous times would be evinced by the revenue. In the present circumstances of the country, unless the revenue could be raised, and greatly raised, the difficulties to be encountered by the country would be without any parallel. A bill had lately passed through the House to enable the commissioners of woods and forests to borrow 300,000l. Did any one think that they could obtain this without having recourse to the stocks? With respect to the sinking fund, after the many discussions on the subject, it seemed that both sides of the House had talked themselves into a conviction that the country was in a flourishing way, if it was unnecessary to apply any part of the sinking fund to the ways and means of the year. It was, however, to be considered, that the rise of the stocks counteracted the effects of the sinking fund. The finance report talked of the revival of commerce, but it was impossible for commerce to revive under such a weight of taxes as oppressed it. It was his wish to have entered at some greater length into the state of trade, and of the resources of the country, but he must abandon that intention, having neither health nor spirits to support any farther consideration of the subject, and being sensible that he had already trespassed to a great extent on the patience of the House. He then moved, that the first resolution be read, for the purpose of being withdrawn. The resolution having been read from the Chair, was accordingly withdrawn. Mr. Tierney then moved the following Resolutions:

jun. said, he was sure the House would do him the justice to believe, that he felt his incompetency to cope with the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down, on financial topics. In expressing his sense of this incompetency, he must offer his warmest thanks to the right hon. gentleman, for the very flattering terms, and the handsome manner, in which he had been pleased to speak of him. He should not detain the House, by entering into the general question of the financial situation of the country,—but in the few observations he had to submit, should confine himself to a statement of the points of difference between the resolutions of the right hon. gentleman, and his own; and of the reasons which made it, in his judgment, proper to move the previous question on the right hon. gentleman's resolutions, and to submit to the House, the resolutions which he should have the honor to propose. The resolutions of the right hon. gen- tleman might be divided, as he conceived, into two parts;—the one relating to the increase and amount of the public debt—the other relating to the revenue, and future prospects of the country. To the latter of these subjects, his (Mr. G.'s) resolutions did not advert, for reasons which he should afterwards explain. As to the former, the right hon. gentleman's resolutions had two objects.—The first—to prove that the probable amount of unfunded debt (exclusive of any deficiency in the consolidated fund, and looking only at the financial operations of the year), unprovided for on 5th January, 1818,—would be 66,047,192l. The second, to prove that, exclusively of any defects in the consolidated fund, and, after a deduction of the sum to be expended by the commissioners for the redemption of the funded debt of Great Britain and Ireland, in the year 1817; the probable increase of debt in exchequer and treasury bills, in the present year, will be 1,814,459l. In opposition to these two conclusions, Mr. Grant said, he contended,—1st. That, exclusive of any defects of consolidated fund, and as far as regards the financial measures of the year, the utmost possible amount of exchequer and Irish treasury bills, outstanding on the 5th January, 1818, could not exceed 64,684,992l.—. 2nd. That, exclusive of any defects in the consolidated fund, and upon a balance between the debt actually incurred in this year, and the sum applicable, in this year, to the reduction of debt, so far from an increase, there would be an actual diminution of debt to the amount of 1,207,743l. With respect to the first point, it should be remembered there was a difference of more than four millions in the amount of debt, as stated in the printed resolutions of the right hon. gentleman, and those now brought forward; but though the error had to that extent been corrected, the principle of the error was still retained in the new resolutions. The right hon. gentleman said, that if it were certain that no exchequer or treasury bills, for the service of this year, would be issued after 5th January, 1818, he might be disposed to agree to the sum of 64,684,000l. stated as the limit in Mr. G.'s resolutions; but as such bills would be issued after 5th January, 1818, he could not do so. Mr. Grant admitted that all the exchequer bills, and treasury bills, applicable to the service of this year, would not be issued by 5th January, 1818; but this by no means led to the conclusion of the right hon. gentleman, that there would be more issued for the service of the year, than 64,684,000l.—it only showed that less than 64,684,000l. would in all probability be issued by the 5th January. The difference between the sum outstanding on the 5th January, and the total sum applicable to the services of the year 1817, would be issued after the 5th January; but after all, that total sum cannot by possibility exceed 64,684,992l. Be it issued sooner or later, be it all outstanding on 5th January 1818, or a portion of it issued after the 5th January, still the whole outstanding debt in exchequer and treasury bills, at the close of the financial year 1817, could not amount to more than 64,684,992l.—unless, indeed, there was an actual deficiency of ways and means, which was scarcely possible, as the whole, or nearly the whole of the ways and means were already realized. The right hon. gentleman seemed to be of opinion, that the ways and means voted for the present year, were nearly 300,000l. less than the supplies voted for this year—but this was not the case. Mr. Grant showed, by a recapitulation of the respective items on each side, that the difference was of small moment;—the supplies being 64,199,708l.; the ways and means 64,141,537l. With a view to lay before the House the grounds upon which he maintained that the limit to the debt in exchequer and Irish treasury bills, on 5th January, 1818, must be 64,684,992l. Mr. Grant said, it might be useful, as a preliminary, to ascertain the exact amount of debt in exchequer and Irish treasury bills, outstanding at the close of the financial year 1816. The amount stated, in the parliamentary accounts, outstanding on the 5th January 1817, was 49,768,292l., which was true of that period; but this was not the whole amount of the unfunded debt as applicable to last year. Some part of the supplies granted by parliament in the last session, were not in the ordinary course satisfied, till after the time to which these accounts were made up. When these supplies were satisfied, the unfunded debt was increased to the amount which has been sanctioned by parliament. In order to ascertain this amount, we must look to the supplies voted this session.—From the votes in supply this year, it appears there have been voted towards the discharge of exchequer bills, sums amount-

ing to	37,841,900
And of Irish treasury bills do.	4,220,000
Total in supply	42,061,900

Besides this, there were other items of unfunded debt, which were not included in the supply of this year, but which it is necessary to bring into the calculation. These consisted of the two Bank advances of three millions, and of six millions, and of Irish treasury bills amounting to 1,084,992l. This sum of Irish treasury bills, was part of the 5,304,992l. outstanding, on the 5th January, 1817, and was not included in the vote of supply,—as not being payable till next year. The Bank advance of three millions, cannot be said to be applicable to the service of last year, but it was part of the outstanding debt at the close of last year. These three items together are equal to

	10,084,992
Adding this to the sum already stated	42,061,900
We have	52,146,892

As the total unfunded debt in exchequer and Irish treasury bills, at the close or the financial year 1816. Mr. Grant then proceeded to state the reasons for fixing 64,684,992,—as the maximum of debt, of the nature under consideration, on the 5th January, 1818. For this purpose he must bring before the House, the votes granted by parliament in Supply, and in Ways and Means in this session. The Supplies granted for this year amounted on the whole to 64,199,708,—consisting partly of the sums already detailed, voted foe the discharge of exchequer and Irish treasury bills 42,061,900

And partly of the sums granted for the current service of the year	22,137,808
	64,199,708
The Ways and Means voted for this year, amounting on the whole to 64,141,537l. They consisted partly of exchequer and Irish treasury bills for different sums, making together	54,600,000
And partly of money revenues amounting to	9,541,537
Total	64,141,537

Now it is obvious, that these Ways and Means can be issued only to meet the supplies of the year; and whenever any portion of them is issued, a corresponding portion of the supplies must be discharged, If, therefore, the whole of the Ways and Means should be issued by the 5th January, 1818, the whole of the supplies must by that time be satisfied. The two sides of the account cannot subsist together. In proportion as the one is increased, the other is diminished. Supposing, then, the whole of the Ways and Means to be applied by the 5th January, 1818; it follows, that the whole amount of exchequer and Irish treasury bills voted for the year, namely, 54,600,000l.. will be then out-standing. In so far, then, as the supply of the present year is concerned, the maximum of debt in exchequer and Irish treasury bills, is the sum of 54,600,000l. To this must be added the 10,084,992l. above mentioned, which, though not applicable to the present year, will be out-standing on the 5th January, and the total 64,684,992l., is the maximum of the whole debt in exchequer and treasury bills outstanding on 5th January, 1818. In stating this as the limit, Mr. Grant reminded the House, he had taken the case most unfavourable to his argument—he had supposed that all the exchequer and treasury bills applicable to the present financial year, would be issued by the 5th January 1818,—but it was unquestionable, that the whole of them would not then be issued—he would have been justified in saying, that not above 61 or 62 millions would then be outstanding,—at least, if we judged from what took place this year, in which 49,768,292l. were out on the 5th January, though the whole sum was 52,146,892l. making a difference of between two and three millions. Mr. Grant said, the mistake in Mr. Tierney's calculation was this—the right hon. gentleman had reckoned the same sum twice over. He found, that since the beginning of the year to the 24th June last, the number of exchequer bills outstanding, had increased from 44,463,300l. to 52,362,200l.—and he assumed that the issue of the nine millions exchequer bills (included in the Budget), must of necessity still farther increase the latter sum.—But on what ground was this assumption made? or why were these bills for nine millions, taken as the specific bills, that would constitute the increase? How were they distinguished from the other sums in exchequer bills voted for this year? Why should not the 18 millions or 24 millions (sums respectively voted in exchequer bills, in the Ways and Means of this year), be just as well taken as the addition? Gentlemen must be aware that no part of the ways and means is specifically appropriated to the discharge of any particular portion of the supply. The Ways and Means are voted generally towards the discharge of the supply granted to his majesty for the year. The sums voted in exchequer bills this year prior to the Budget, were just as applicable to the current service of the year, as to the discharge of outstanding exchequer bills. It might therefore have occurred to the right hon. gentleman, that a part at least of the 7,898,950l., by which the unfunded debt has been increased in the present year, had been applied towards satisfying the annual grants for the service of the year. Whatever part of it was so applied went of course to preclude a similar application of an equal part of the 12,600,000l., the 'difference between the Ways and Means to arise from money revenue, and the total amount of supply as stated in the Budget—that is, if the whole 12,600,000l., should be issued, the actual increase of debt, would be not 12,600,000l., but 12,600,000l. diminished by that part so anticipated by previous issues of exchequer bills,—and that part, so anticipated, if issued at all, could go only to replace outstanding exchequer bills; and would therefore be, not an augmentation, but a substitution of debt. But even without these proofs, the mere result of the right hon. gentleman's resolutions, was enough to prove the existence of some error or fallacy in them. For by these resolutions, the increase of unfunded debt in the year, is made 16,278,900l. Now, the money revenue voted in the Ways and Means this year, was 9,541,537l. making together 25,820,437l. The supply voted for the current service of the year, was 22,137,808l.—that is—here are Ways and Means of nearly 26 millions, to meet a supply of 22 millions. Mr. Grant observed, it was remarkable that the fallacy had in part been perceived and corrected by the right hon. gentleman; and yet was in part allowed to remain. In the first copy of the resolutions, in the 4th resolution, the amount of Irish treasury bills was stated at 5,304,992l. In the amended copy, they are stated at 1,084,992l., and 4,220,000l., were very properly omitted—and why? because they were provided for in the supplies of the year! but for precisely the same reason, a portion of the nine millions ought also to be omitted. In whatever proportion the 52,362,200l. has been applied to the service of the year, in that proportion, the 12,600,000l. considered as applicable to the service of the year, ought to be diminished. If, instead of the mode of calculation adopted in the right hon. gentleman's resolutions, another had been used—if the whole sum actually applied to the services of last year had been taken; if to that, had been added the 12,600,000l., included in the Budget of this year—and, if there had farther been added the 10,084,992l. above detailed, the result, Mr. Grant said, would have been the same as given in his resolutions. With respect to the second topic of difference, the increase or diminution of debt, Mr. Grant said, if the statements he had already made were correct, the conclusion might be drawn very shortly. He admitted, that in the amount of exchequer bills, outstanding on 5th January, 1817, he had included those issued on the "annual duties," which ought to be omitted, and this would reduce the sum from 44,650,300l., as stated in his resolutions, to 44,463,300l., as stated in the right hon. gentleman's, and the latter he would adopt. Yet, even thus, there would be a positive decrease of debt. The right hon. gentleman, indeed, in his new resolutions, separated the sum granted for discharge of navy debt, from the rest of the sum applicable to reduction of debt,—for what reason, Mr. Grant could not imagine. It was of no consequence to the present inquiry, whether the 1,660,000l. was funded or unfunded. The only question was, on the whole services of the year, what was the debt actually incurred, and, what was the whole sum applicable, from whatever quarter, to the discharge of debt. The 1,660,000l., therefore, ought to be added to the 14,464,443l., and it would thus appear, that at the end of the year, there would be at the least a diminution of debt of 1,207,743l. He said at the least, because if the debt in exchequer and treasury bills, outstanding on 5th January, 1818, should be below the maximum, as it was almost certain to be, the difference would go to make a still farther diminution of public debt. Mr. Grant said, that he had abstained in his resolutions, from adverting to the other great subject touched upon in the resolutions of the right hon. gentleman, namely, the revenue, and future prospects of the country. He had done so, because he wished his resolutions to be resolutions of fact, and not of argument and inference. If his resolutions had any merit, it was that of confining themselves to fact and calculation, without involving estimate, conjecture, or prediction. On this ground, he objected generally to the right hon. gentleman's resolutions. They were argumentative; and resolutions, involving deductions and inference, could not lead to any definite conclusion;—because it was impossible for them to give more than a broken and imperfect view of a great question. The right hon. gentleman was sensible of this, as he had expressed, that his intention had been to multiply his resolutions. Mr. Grant believed no resolutions, however multiplied, could have answered the purpose; he regretted, however, that they had not the advantage of those multiplied resolutions, not from a belief of their giving any decisive result, but from a wish to see the right hon. gentleman's opinions at length on these topics. He regretted still more the cause which had deprived the House of that advantage, and he was sure the House deeply joined with him in that feeling [a general cry of hear!]. He did not say that resolutions of argument, were in all cases to be deprecated; but he meant to say, that if they were at all admitted, it was indispensable that they should bring before the House, all the main considerations necessary to the decision of the question. And even then, the end would be unsatisfactory; for if the resolutions had been multiplied, and he (Mr. G.) had met them also by multiplied resolutions, there would have been opinion against opinion, and here, after all, it must have, rested. It was obvious, that the mere statement of a deficiency of revenue, led to no conclusion whatever,—there were other inquiries essential to form a true judgment. What are the causes of this deficiency? Are they temporary, or permanent? domestic, or foreign? within our control or beyond it? These, and other such topics, were not brought in view by the right hon. gentleman's resolutions—which resolutions seemed to him founded on erroneous premises, and of course led to inadequate conclusions. The right hon. member had dwelt much upon the arrears of property tax, which had fallen in this year, and had described them in his third resolution, as extraordinary receipts applied towards raising the supplies of the present year, arguing from thence, that we could not rely on this another year. These were extraordinary receipts, which would not recur; but then there were also extraordinary charges included in the supplies of this year, which would not recur in the next. For instance, the sum required to make good the permanent charges of Ireland, to 5th

January, 1816,	246,500
And charge for the navy debt	1,660,000
Making together	1,906,500

This appears also from the 4th report of the committee on finance, who present the estimates of the supplies for this year and the next, which give a difference nearly equal to the extraordinary receipts of the year, being for 1817, 19,617,300l.; and for 1818, 17,350,000l. As to the fourth resolution, the right hon. gentleman had here fallen into an inaccuracy Even allowing the propriety of founding a resolution on supposition (and this, by-the-by, sufficiently showed the inconveniency of that mode of resolving; for as the right hon. gentleman began with supposing the income and charge of the consolidated fund to be the same as last year, it would be just as competent to Mr. G., or any other member to suppose the income and charge to be that given by the committee on finance, as the average of the two years 1815 and 1816), but even on the right hon. gentleman's supposition, it was wrong to state the charge in this year, of the same amount as in the last,—even if the charge were, technically speaking, the same, still it must inevitably diminish, from the circumstance of the interest upon the loan for the first year, after its contraction being so much greater than in subsequent years, a circumstance of which the right hon. gentleman must be quite aware. The difference arising from this circumstance, had been estimated by the committee on finance; by whom the charge was specified to be 45,940,452l., instead of 46,625,392l., and this would make a considerable variation in the result. This too, it should be remembered, was not a matter of estimate and conjecture; but of positive calculation—and was inevitable, unless in case of a new loan, which had not been supposed. After animadverting farther upon the fallacious data which formed the groundwork of the right hon. gentleman's resolutions, and the erroneous conclusions he thence drew, the hon. member referred to the consolatory prospects held out by the improvement of the country; and said, that he had purposely declined entering at large into the general topics of discussion, conceiving it rather his duty to explain the grounds of his resolutions, and the reasons which induced him; though feeling as he did, the highest deference for the right hon. gentleman's judgment and authority upon these subjects, to oppose his resolutions He concluded with moving the previous question.

thought it would be unnecessary for him to trouble the House with a repetition of the arguments that had been so ably adduced by his hon. friend, especially as the right hon. gentleman opposite seemed to admit the grounds of his hon. friend's argument, except as to about 500,000l. exchequer bills, with regard to which he had contended, that before issuing these exchequer bills, the old ones should have been discharged: but any gentleman who had attended to circumstances of notorious fact, very well knew that the amount of exchequer bills newly required was not that mentioned by the right hon. gentleman, and that the bills issued this year paid for those that had been in circulation last year. From the present great demand for exchequer bills, he had already been enabled to discharge all that had been in circulation up to October last; and, however ludicrous it might sound, he was induced to believe, that at the close of the year there would more probably be a scarcity of these bills in the market than a difficulty in disposing of them. But as to the state of our resources, he had no hesitation in stating, without any disposition to cast blame upon the decision of that House, that had the system of finance proposed by government been maintained, there would now be no question as to the capability of the country, as to the discharge of the public debt, or as to the competency of our means to meet the supplies of the year [hear, hear!]. This he declared to be his decided opinion, and he had never hesitated to express it; and, if any embarrassment should occur, it would be the duty of parliament to supply the remedy, which would not have become necessary, had the proposition of government been acceded to. He trusted, however, that the vote of the House upon that proposition would not lead to the injurious consequences that were apprehended, and that still the public wants would be fully supplied, while a reduction of the public debt would go on. But, yet it was fair to say, that if any falling off should take place in the credit of the country—if those hopes which he was encouraged to indulge should prove fallacious, it would become the duty of parliament to adopt vigorous measures for the improvement of our financial system. He believed that the necessity for such vigorous measures would not arise, but parliament must be prepared for all events: but his hope was, that the four and five per cents. would be soon paid off even with our present means, while the amount of our three per cents. would also be reduced, and he was induced so to calculate from the extraordinary improvement within the present year. The right hon. mover professed to think this improvement quite marvellous and unaccountable; but he thought it might be accounted for upon very rational grounds. For it was known that at the close of the last year there was a great accumulation of capital, and from the wild and mischievous suggestions that were put forth, especially as to the reduction of the interest of the public debt, and the application of the sinking fund—which suggestions were indeed echoed in that House—a great alarm was created among the stockholders. But the wise and resolute declaration of parliament having dispelled this alarm, confidence and credit were restored, and the stocks naturally rose. Parliament had also done much good by adhering to the system of the corn laws, which whatever difference of opinion might prevail respecting its merits, could never be so injurious as perpetual shifting upon such an important subject. Here the right hon. gentleman recited the grounds upon which his calculation as to the improvement of our resources rested; 1st. as to the improvement of our public credit, demonstrated by the advance of the funds; 2dly. as to the reduction of the interest upon exchequer bills; 3dly. as to the resumption of cash payments by the bank, which had already virtually taken place, and which, he maintained, would be complete at the period fixed by the law, unless prevented by some extraordinary shock in our commercial or political affairs; and, 4thly. as to the reduction of our public debt, there was another encouraging event upon which he felt himself entitled to dwell—he meant the issue of the new silver coinage, which he considered of great importance, while it was an operation performed with more celerity and success than any thing of a similar nature which the country had ever witnessed. But he anticipated still more favourable results in the course of the next year, and that with the prospects of the harvest which now appeared, there was every reason to expect that the prosperity of the country would be completely restored, in its foreign as well as in its domestic affairs: for, as the prospect of a productive harvest presented itself also in other countries, our commerce with those countries would naturally revive. And here he thought it right to contradict an idea which was always a calumny with respect to this country. It was uniformly false to assume that England could ever derive any advantage from the calamity or depression of other nations. Even in war this assumption was totally unfounded, but to urge such a notion in peace was quite preposterous; for neither England nor any commercial nation could be benefited by the poverty of its customers. This notion was, however, always foreign to the policy of England, which, he felt confident, was superior to any narrow selfish views, for her liberality was equal to her power, and that power was fully competent, notwithstanding the gloomy prognostics of some gentlemen, to meet any danger that could possibly assail her, while the spirit of her people continued to co-operate with the wisdom of her parliament.

had heard with great surprise the right hon. gentleman say, that the distressed financial state of the country was owing to the rejection of the property tax in the last session; he thought other reasons would occur more readily to every one who heard him; but if there was any foundation for the assertion of the right hon. gentleman, how had it come to pass that, in the third year of peace, a chancellor of the exchequer should be obliged to say, that there existed a necessity for that most grievous war tax, the property tax. If the financial distress of the country was traced to its proper source, it would be found to have been produced by the war; and not merely perhaps by the war, but by the shameful prodigality of each successive administration in the management of the war. It was sufficient to refer to the report of the committee of finance upon the ordnance, to show to what a pitch that extravagance was carried; it appeared in that report, that nine millions were expended daring the war upon the Chatham and Plymouth lines, Spike island, Weedon Beck, and similar works, without any occurrence happening, of the utility of these works being once put to the proof. It was to this scandalous waste of the public money by every public department, that the country was reduced to its present financial difficulties. To remove them the right hon. gentleman said he was always ready to adopt vigorous measures—But what were those vigorous measures? New taxes, and among the rest the property tax. They admitted the necessity of equalizing the income and expenditure, but their manner of doing so was to raise the income to the level of their own scale of expense. They would not adopt the only plan that could save the country from ruin, which was to lower the expenditure to the level of the income, nor apply vigorous measures to this object, in setting on foot a most rigid system of economy and retrenchment in every department of the state. The country could now no longer be deceived as to the intentions in this respect of the ministers; because the fourth report of the committee of finance contained their own statement of what the expenditure was to be in the year 1818.—There was no reduction below that of this year, except of about 500,000l. for the army and about 70,000l. for the ordnance. This showed that the ministers intended to keep up the present large standing army, and that they had no idea of making any sincere retrenchment in the expenses of the public services or of the public departments. The right hon. gentleman told us we might look forward to higher prospects; but the country would be deceived if it did so, because it appeared by the fourth report of the committee of finance, which was in fact the report of the right hon. gentleman, that upon the estimate of the probable income and expenditure of the year 1818, we should have to borrow, in this third year of peace, about twelve millions to make good the deficiency of the revenue. But it was to be observed, that this estimate was founded on the erroneous calculation that the income of 1818, would be equal to the average of the income of 1815 and 1816—which gave an amount higher than the income of 1816 by near three millions. If the estimate had been made upon the supposition that the income of 1818 would be the same as the income of 1816, the sum to be borrowed would be nearly seventeen millions. The income would, in fact, do little more than pay the in- terest of the debt in 1818, and we should have to borrow the whole sum, excepting a few hundred thousand pounds for the peace establishment, amounting to seventeen millions.—The hon. member concluded by saying, that he regretted the state of the session would not admit of this subject being gone into as fully as its importance required it should be, he hoped it would be taken up and thoroughly examined early in the next; in the mean time the country ought to take warning of the notice the right hon. gentleman had given it, of his intention to have recourse to vigorous measures; and by timely efforts to prevent the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues from again inforcing upon them the burthen of the property tax.

had no hesitation in declaring, that he thought the present situation of the country required a relaxation of taxation, and that it would be well purchased, either by a reduction of the interest of the national debt or the application of some part of the sinking fund to the ways and means of the year. He could never think any measures wild or mischievous that might preclude the necessity of forcing upon us again the income or property tax. After some allusions to the state of the sinking fund, the hon. gentleman treated the financial system at present pursued as the greatest delusion, and observed that any man must be blind not to see that we should be worse off every year, unless the interest of the debt were reduced. It was in vain to dispute that there had been this year taken from the sum for the reduction of the national debt, no less than 14,729,000l. This sum had not been raised from the people, and would be to be raised by them. It had not been paid off, and therefore it remained to be paid off. The hon. gentleman then alluded to the raising of the stocks, which he considered as an artifice, and argued that by the rise of the 3 per cents. from 65 to 75 there was now 25,000l. less stock purchased on the three or four buying days, than when they were at that price, making the redemption of the National Debt 5,000,000l. a-year slower than it would be if they continued at that price. He agreed, that it was better to borrow money this year by exchequer bills than to raise it by taxes; but this was only putting off the evil day: and he repeated, that it was only by the application of the sinking fund to the pur- poses of the year, that the right hon. gentleman would be able to avoid his difficulties. At all events he sincerely hoped never to see the income tax revived.

allowed, that, under all the circumstances of the case, the plan of the chancellor of the exchequer was the one which seemed most likely to be conducive to the interests of the public. The issue of exchequer bills was unquestionably preferable to a loan, since it enabled the commissioners for the reduction of the debt, with money which bore an interest of only 3 per cent. to extinguish an equivalent portion of debt bearing an interest of 4 per cent. There was a collateral advantage likewise, in this mode of proceeding still more important, namely, that it had a tendency to enhance the value of funded property; although he admitted, that, in that respect, there ought to be a limit to its effect. He also approved of the abstinence of the right hon. gentleman from proposing any additional burthens on the people for the purpose of carrying on the service of the year. The people had a right to demand, that while the country continued at peace, no new taxes should be levelled on them. Any attempt of that sort, indeed, would prove impracticable. He approved of the determination of the right hon. gentleman, under the present circumstances, to give no interruption to what was called the sinking fund. It was desirable to maintain that machinery, which, during the war, had certainly had the effect of keeping down the funded debt. But if it should ever be proposed to maintain it by increasing the funded debt, or in other words, to reduce one part of the funded debt by increasing the other, he should repeat those objections which he had formerly urged to a proceeding that must necessarily be wholly inoperative as it regarded the public interest, and advantageous only to the loan contractors. As to the resumption of cash payments by the Bank, he had never denied the probability of that resumption at the period alluded to; but had merely denied the assertion of the right hon. gentleman, that the payment in specie by the Bank of their small notes issued previously to January 1816, was virtual resumption of cash payments.

said, there could be no doubt, notwithstanding the delicacy which had been professed on the subject of touching the sinking fund, that, to all practical purposes, it was completely swept away. It was a mere form that was continued, and not the substance. Above all things it was most important to maintain the public credit. No man of common sense would propose to shake that which was so valuable in a pecuniary point of view, putting out of the question the shock to moral feeling which any dishonourable proceeding towards the public creditor must occasion. The right hon. gentleman opposite, when speaking of the financial difficulties of the country, always threw in the teeth of his opponents, the rejection of the property tax, as if it were one of the main causes of those difficulties. Many of the right hon. gentleman's friends, however, had actively opposed that tax; and looking at the situation of the country during the last twelve months, he would ask, what would have been its plight had the tax been continued? The country gentleman would have been called on to pay the tax on rents which he had never received. The merchant would have been called on to pay the tax on profits which he had never made; and so on of the other classes of the community. He now came to consider the state of the revenue. The right hon. gentleman thought it would increase. He (Mr. B.) should be glad if no diminution took place in it. He strongly recommended a decrease in the custom duties. If they were continued at their present rate, which was never contemplated for a time of peace, smuggling would increase, and the revenue be still more deteriorated. When a smuggler could buy a pound of tea at Flushing for 2s. 6d. which sold in London for 8s. no attempt to prevent his smuggling it could possibly be successful. As with tea, so it was with spirits. In the article of silks also, smuggling was carried on to a very great extent; the proof of which was to be found in the fact, that although silks were in much greater use now than formerly, yet that the British manufacturer was ruined. Had ministers been forced during the war to observe the same economy that they had recently been compelled to practise, at least 100 millions would have been saved to the country; without any reduction of the vigour with which the contest was carried on. The most profuse system of expenditure had existed in all quarters—East, West, North, and South. This was in a great measure attributable to the facility with which money was borrowed, in consequence of the restriction of cash payments at the Bank, and the consequent issue of a paper circulation. Even since the peace, it had been very difficult to make ministers economical. A noble lord had confidently declared, that the peace establishment could not be reduced below 22 millions. It had nevertheless been reduced to 17½ millions. The only source from which great financial improvement could be expected, was the civilization of Ireland, if, without offence, he might use such an expression. He was convinced that 4 millions might be derived in that way, both by the reduction of the present military expenditure in that country, and by the better collection of the revenue. He had strong hopes, that when political disputes connected with Ireland were at an end, and should no longer be made use of as a ladder to political power, that we might look to that country as affording the means of greatly increasing our financial resources. He had no difficulty in stating it to be his opinion, on a view of the general trade of this country, that it was reviving; and that although it would never return to the unnatural state in which it existed during a great period of the war, it was rapidly approaching to a sound and healthy condition, which was much to be preferred.

defended his noble friend from the misrepresentation of having ever said, that 22 millions must be the ultimate peace establishment of the country. What his noble friend had expressly declared was, that 22 millions was the amount to which alone it could be reduced in the first year after the conclusion of the war; but that it might be subsequently susceptible of a greater reduction, which reduction it had accordingly experienced. As to the supposition, that 100 millions might have been saved during the war by greater economy, the thing was impossible, as the checks and regulations, which it was very easy to enforce in peace, were impracticable during an extensive war, when a larger discretion must necessarily be allowed to those entrusted with the execution of naval and military operations. As to the nine millions which the hon. baronet said had been uselessly expended in fortifications, it was very easy when the danger was over, to talk of the precautions having been unnecessary. With respect to the assertion, that the revenue of the country was not at present mere than equal to the charges, the same had always been the case at the conclusion of a peace. In 1786, when the sinking fund was first established, the country had been three years at peace, during which three years great additions had been made to the taxes. Mr. Pitt had then stated, that when the country should arrive at the permanent peace establishment, a surplus of one million might be looked to as applicable to the reduction of the debt. No specific period for the accomplishment of that object was, however, stated by Mr. Pitt. Now we had been only two years at peace, and instead of increasing the taxes, a number of taxes had been remitted. The two periods, therefore, were not fairly subjects of comparison. There was in 1786, a deficiency in the receipts as compared with the expenditure of 4,884,000l.—What did Mr. Pitt do that year? Precisely what his right hon. friend had done this year. He added no less than 5,500,000l. to the unfunded debt, by the issue of exchequer bills to cover the existing deficiency. He owned he heard with some surprise from his right hon. friend (Mr. Tierney) his account of the situation of the country during the last war. According to that account the period of the American war was one of nothing but distress, and that of the last war was nothing but one of abundance. And yet during the last war they were constantly told by his right hon. friend, that the country was in such a state of ruin and distress that nothing could exceed it. But now they were told that they were labouring under some mistake on this subject, and that his right hon. friend was not talking of the last war, but of the American war. As he could not help thinking the gloomy views which many gentlemen entertained on this subject were unfounded, he would enter into the reasons why he entertained the opinions which he did on the subject. But the whole turned upon this—Whether the diminution of the revenue was owing to any thing like decay in the internal resources of the country, or whether it was owing to causes of a temporary nature? He took the main causes of our present difficulties—he meant the remote and predisposing causes to be of a complicated nature, partly political, and partly financial. During the war a very extra-ordinary excitement was given to our agriculture and trade, and above all to our foreign trade, It was impossibly too, to forget the state of the currency during the war—and the unbounded facility which speculators found in the unlimited issues of paper, and the state of the country banks. This facility of speculation coupled with other causes, led to the overtrading, which again led to our present difficulties. The immediate cause of these difficulties, was the transition from a state of war to a state of peace, coupled as this was with some circumstances peculiar to the character of the late war. It had always happened to this country on a transition from a state of war to a state of peace, whether that war was calamitous in its result, as the American war had been, or fortunate in its issue like the present, that the active classes of the county were placed by the peace in a state of great embarrassment—that trade was in a most distressed state, and that the industry of the country was paralyzed. If the state of the country, at the end of every former war, had been the same in this respect as it was at the termination of the present, there must be some general cause in operation to produce this effect. It was obvious, that a number of channels of industry on the breaking out of war were interrupted, and the industry turned into other channels arising out of the war. Again, on the return of peace, the industry to which the war peculiarly gave rise was suddenly stopped. The present war, too, terminated more suddenly than any former war. It had also happened, that about the close of the war a considerable importation of foreign corn had been followed by a very abundant harvest. It was well known that the greatest exertions were made at the close of the last war. The productive powers of the agriculture and industry of the country had received the greatest encouragement from the increase of prices which had been going on during the war. This made the distress occasioned by the cessation of the immense demand occasioned by the war, be more felt than it otherwise would have been. But what had been the effect of the war on the currency of the country? During the war a facility had been given to speculation, by country banks. The country bankers were tempted to give not only large credit to others, but to embark in extensive speculations themselves, by seeing prices rise from day to day. The borrower was tempted to borrow, by seeing the value of what he borrowed diminished from day to day by the increase in price; and the lender was tempted to lend, by finding in this rise of price an additional security for his money. But when the fall in price took place, the creditor had no longer the same security; and a fall in price always diminished the demand, for no man wished to add to his stock in a falling market. Such was the situation of the country from these causes, that all last year, and the beginning of the present, it was impossible, out of London at least, to procure money at the legal interest. He needed not to enlarge on the effects of this, on a nation like this with its poor laws, and with its numerous burthens, all sustained by the activity of the country. When prices were continually rising all the active classes were benefited, and annuitants alone were placed in a worse situation. But it was better that any loss should fall on them than on the productive classes. The effect of a rise in price on them would perhaps force them to greater economy, and at most abridge their comforts; but while they were reduced to this, the other classes were benefited. But the effect of a falling market on the industry of the country was very different. If the value of a man's stock were only reduced 1–10th in value perhaps that 1–10th might amount to the whole of his own capital, the 9–10ths might be borrowed. The fall naturally alarmed the creditor, who, by urging his demand forced sales by which the difficulty was increased. In such a state of things, it was impossible that the revenue, depending, as it did, so much on the active classes, should not fail. This re-action, produced by a return from war to peace, and the cessation of the war expenditure, had been immediately followed up by an aggravation of the difficulties of the country in the calamity of a deficient harvest. The peace had sent into the market 500,000 persons, who, from being consumers, became competitors, for production. All these causes had produced the effects which they all had witnessed, but for which it was impossible there could be any immediate remedy. We had found ourselves, during the greatest part of this year, in the greatest distress from these circumstances. The only articles above value were money for production, and bread for the active part of the population; and nothing could be so distressing to a country as a scarcity in these, and a glut in all other articles. This was the situation of the country, particularly since the failure of the last harvest. His only surprise indeed, was, that the revenue had not fallen off more. A falling off of 10 per cent., on a revenue of 50 millions was not so wonderful when a scarcity of provisions happened to take place, when there was full employment for the people, the revenue was not affected. What would be the effect of this stagnation in our manufactures? It happened at present, that while the consumption was not diminished, the supply of all those who furnished goods to the country was diminished. But, if consumption went on at the same rate, and the supplies diminished, the effect would necessarily be, that the stocks would be exhausted, prices would necessarily rise; and then when prices rose, a demand for labour would take place, and confidence and credit return. It was impossible that credit could improve but with an increased demand, and to this increased demand, in the nature of things, we might confidently look. And if there should be, as he trusted there would, not only in this country, but in all Europe, an abundant harvest. It was impossible but that the situation of the country and its revenue must improve. In another session, too, they would enter into a consideration of the state of our currency and of the country banks; not, he trusted, with a view to check issues or credit, but to place them on a more secure footing than they had been on during the war. He would state, that we were approaching to a state of confidence and credit, and that the industry of the country was reviving. Of this sufficient evidence was laid before the committee. It was proved that the leading branches of our manufactures were improving: and in the very nature of things this must take place. His right hon. friend could not suppose that the active classes in this country could remain for ever without employment, and that the whole of our immense capital would lie dormant. He thought, therefore, that gloomy views of the situation of the country ought not to be entertained. He should rather think, after the exertions of the war we might look forward confidently to a state of still greater prosperity than that which existed prior to the late re-action. Our situation must be one of progressive improvement, if we followed those principles which sound policy, as well as our duty, pointed out to us. It must be our policy to cherish and preserve the peace of Europe. We were approaching to a state of healthy circulation, and he trusted that with regard to this point in future we should not depart from sound principles. During war public faith had been kept, and he trusted that in peace we should not abandon that honourable course. He trusted, too, that every means of practical economy would be resorted to, that the House would do every thing to prepare the country for the reception of more liberal commercial arrangements, which would have the effect of disarming foreign countries of their jealousy towards us. The right hon. gentleman concluded with observing, that he was warranted in entertaining the sanguine opinion, that we should soon return to our former state of prosperity.