moved the second reading of the St. Pancras poor bill; but in doing so, he could not but observe, that the principle of the bill by no means met his approbation; still, circumstanced as he was, he felt it his duty to make the motion.

said, the present bill was quite uncalled for and unnecessary. The conduct of the gentlemen who were vested by an act passed in 1805, with the management of the poor in the parish of St. Pancras, so far from being improper was most exemplary. These persons were from their property and their rank in life, the most interested in the proper management and application of the poor-rates. If the plan proposed by the present bill were to be carried into effect, they would have every year a repetition of the most disgraceful scenes which had lately occurred in the election of a churchwarden, which lasted two days, to the great annoyance of the parish; and when a scrutiny was demanded, it was found that persons of all descriptions had been allowed to vote, numbers of whom had not a shadow of right, and some not even resident in the parish. Feeling a strong conviction that the greatest benefits had been derived to the parish by the measure which this bill was intended to subvert, he should move as an amendment, that the bill be read a second time this day six months.

contended, that the objections which had been made to the present bill were altogether groundless. It was not the wish of those who advocated the bill, to give any thing like a universality of suffrage; on the contrary, they proposed a high assessment to the poor-rates as a qualification to vote. Was it to be endured that those who had the raising and disposing of such immense sums as the poor-rates of the parish of St. Pancras amounted to, should have the passing of their own accounts, and be subject to no control whatever from the parish? The provisions of the bill of 1805, gave a certain number of individuals, who had the power of filling up vacancies in their number, the complete disposal of the funds of the parish, without being subject to any control whatever. Such was the distressed state of the parish at present, that it was absolutely necessary some alteration should take place in the system of management, there having been taken out no less than 900 summonses in the course of last year. The principle of the bill had been already acted upon: for an act exactly similar had been passed for regulating the parish of St. Andrew's, Holborn. It was improper to throw upon the bill the odium that it was democratical, and tended to universal suffrage. He hoped, therefore, that the House would suffer it to go into a committee, in order that both parties might have the opportunity of telling their story when the truth would unquestionably come out.

most heartily concurred in the amendment which had been moved by the hon. and learned solicitor general. He was upon the committee on the last bill, and was well acquainted with most of the leading gentlemen in the parish. The result of that act had plainly proved that the parochial concerns could not be in better hands, for a more honourable set of men than the board of directors did not any where exist.

opposed the bill, as tending to revive the disorders which were constantly taking place before the passing of the act which at present regulated the parish.

said, he would also vote for the amendment. The provisions of the present St. Pancras poor act were the same as those by which the parish of Mary-le-Bone had been governed for a great number of years, and it was impossible for any parish to be managed in a better manner than the latter. If the present bill was suffered to pass, the parish would be in as bad a state as it was before the act of 1805, when, during the annual and other elections for parish officers, no respectable person could venture to pass along the road. He hoped the gentlemen of the parish so far from lessening the powers of the present directors, would put all the parochial concerns in the same hands that had already saved them several thousand pounds.

The amendment was carried, and the bill was ordered to be read a second time on this day six months.

moved the Order of the day for the House going into a Committee of the whole House on the Prince Regent's Message. The Speaker having left the chair, the House formed itself into a Committee, and the Message was read.

said, in rising to call the attention of the House to the Prince Regent's Message, informing the House of the intended marriages of their Royal Highnesses the dukes of Clarence and Cambridge, and recommending to them the adoption of such measures as would enable his Royal Highness to make a suitable provision to his royal brothers: he was sure the House would feel that it was impossible for him to be insensible to the peculiar difficulty of the situation in which he was placed. But, if at any time the duty which he had to discharge was one of difficulty, certainly the House must feel, that after the temper which was disclosed by them in the course of the former evening, the task imposed on him of calling the attention of the House to the message, with a view of submitting to them what, under all the circumstances of the case, his majesty's ministers considered a suitable allowance to their Royal Highnesses, was, in point of difficulty, greatly increased. The House must be aware, that among the difficult and painful duties which the servants of the Crown were occasionally called on to discharge, there were none of their public functions more eminently difficult than when they had to call on the House to make arrangements for a special provision for the different branches of the royal family; because, whatever might be the attachment of the House to the family on the throne, and however much they might feel their own honour and security connected with the honour and security of that family, yet there was no principle more interwoven in the natural working of a free constitution, like that under which we had the happiness to live, than for the House always to look to the power and influence of the Crown with that sort of jealousy which was almost inseparable from their character of guardians of the interests of the public. To propose to the House an additional provision to any of the members of the royal family, and augmenting the public burthens by the amount of such provision, was one of the most arduous duties which could devolve on ministers; and the House would feel, that the difficulty of this duty was greatly enhanced by the change in the administration of public affairs, which had taken place at the general desire and solicitation, as being calculated to promote the publie benefit, and which had been met by a correspondent feeling on the part of the Crown,—namely, that great change that had been in the former part of the present reign effected in the constitution of the country, by which it had been thought necessary for the public advantage, that all those branches of revenue which were formerly at the uncontrolled disposal of the Crown, should be surrendered into the hands of that House, to be administered for the public benefit,—a change which rendered it necessary for the royal family to come to parliament in all the exigencies which might arise, and demand a specific grant from the public to meet those exigencies. The House must feel, that in former times this question could not have arisen—the Crown would have made a suitable provision for the different branches of the royal family, either out of the hereditary revenue, or out of the other branches of revenue at the disposal of the Crown, according to what was considered the exigencies of the case, without coming to parliament for assistance.

He was not stating this to parliament with the view of disposing them to any unfair purpose, or of attempting to turn aside the House from what they considered the path of their duty (nor would he do so, even if he could think that such an attempt would succeed); but his only object was to show that if the applications of the reigning family to parliament had been more frequent than from those who had gone before them, it was not because they were more improvident than their predecessors, but because the revenues which formerly belonged to the Crown had been surrendered to that House on its binding itself to provide for the wants of the royal family from time to time, as circumstances might require. By consenting, therefore, to such allowances as the situation of the different branches of the royal family might require, they were only discharging that duty to the Crown which a just view of the interests of the country prescribed to them. In the discharge of this duty, they ought not to allow themselves to be misled by any suggestion that it was intended to do more than was necessary, nor to be deterred by any public clamour from doing that to the Crown which, in the discharge of their duty to the Crown and the country, they might consider to be just and necessary. He hoped the members who had formerly expressed their disinclination to the measure of allowances which had been proposed, would not consider themselves pledged to oppose any measure, when adequate reasons were adduced for its adoption. He was not surprised, in the present posture of the country, by the indisposition which had been shown to the grant of money, at a time when the practice of economy was indispensably necessary to be resorted to for the ultimate security of the country.

After what had passed on the preliminary discussion, he should be permitted to point out with more minuteness the reasons which induced him to make the proposition than he should have done, but for those preceding discussions. He assured the gentlemen opposite, that though he differed from them in their application of the principle of economy, he was equally sensible of the sacredness of this principle itself. He was willing to take into account, as well as they, not only the exigencies of the illustrious individuals, but the burthened state of the people, after an expensive war. But while he fully admitted this principle, he was confident the committee would concur with him in thinking, that some further provision ought to be made for those illustrious princes who had been bred in the country, in the event of their marrying, as it would be felt how desirable it was that the succession should be continued by a line of British princes, and that no necessity should arise for placing any foreign family on the throne No principle was more clearly acknowledged in the House than this; and no feeling was more mixed up with the late calamitous death of the princess Charlotte, than the consideration how the succession to the throne could be most prudently provided for. This had been the most anxious wish of every good subject. If the House had not been pledged by a paragraph in the Address to the throne, at the commencement of the session, still their loyalty to the family on the throne would lead them to hope to see the succession secured in a line of British princes, and he could not conceive a crime of a more deep and responsible die, than ministers would be guilty of, if they suffered parliament to separate without having done their best to attain this object. With respect to the nature of the measures which occurred to their contemplation, the House would look to the state in which the succession was placed. They had the satisfaction of seeing many illustrious individuals within this country in the nearest degree of relationship to his majesty, who, born and bred in this country, were well acquainted with its constitution, its customs, and its laws. But here their satisfaction ceased. Of the twelve children of his majesty, seven were sons, and five daughters. But not one of them had a child to present a hope of direct inheritance of the throne. Though the hopes of securing a regular succession were not closed, all the members of the royal family were so far advanced in life, that he was sure neither the legislature nor the country would wish any unnecessary delay to take place in the adoption of measures calculated to secure so desirable an object. The duke of Cambridge, the youngest son, was now forty-five years of age, and none of the princesses were under forty. To excite some of the members of the royal family to marriage, was now an object of much importance to the country; and those illustrious personages owed it to themselves, to the Crown, and to the country, if they did not feel that from some circumstances marriage would be perfectly incompatible with their own comfort, to look forward to a suitable union, that the succession might not be endangered. On public grounds, he repeated, it was the duty of his majesty's ministers to look to alliances of the royal family. A single marriage would not satisfy the anxiety of the people on the subject of the succession,—though, if those illustrious individuals were less advanced in life, the case would be different. The Prince Regent, sensible of this, had made offers to such of his royal brothers as could reconcile marriage to their feelings. He had done this in the greatest spirit of affection; he had shown no preference to any one of those illustrious individuals beyond the other. He had considered that the people and the Crown had a common interest in the succession, and he had offered for such as should enter upon marriages, with the consent of the Crown, to propose to parliament to make such a provision for them as would be consistent with public economy.

He should feel it his duty to himself, to his colleagues, and to the House, to state without the slightest disguise what they had originally in contemplation, and he should follow it up by showing what, in deference to the opinion of the House, they now thought themselves justified in proposing. In looking to the provision to be made for the branches of the royal family, who were now about to enter into alliances, the ministers felt difficulty from the want of certain data to proceed on. The first propositions had been modified as far as was thought practicable, consistently with the plan which had been formed for carrying the marriages into effect, without degrading the individuals or involving them in embarrassments at the outset. That which they had first suggested, could not be established on precedent; but the precedents which had received the sanction of the House had had much influence on ministers, while considering this matter. They had looked back to what had been done on the occasion of royal marriages for a number of years. But that which might have been a suitable provision twenty years ago, would be found so inadequate to the expenses of a royal establishment now, that such a comparison was likely rather to mislead than properly to guide the judgment of the House. The only case, in later times, was that of the princess Charlotte, who had 60,000l. a year, and 60,000l. outfit. But that did not form any standard; because, though her royal highness was not necessarily the direct successor, yet she had been so long in the view and hopes of the nation in that character, that the people were led to regard and treat her as such. The provision which was made was therefore liberal, and calculated to lead her royal highness to confidence and attachment towards the nation which had bestowed it. When the duke of York married the princess of Prussia in 1792, the circumstances under which that provision was made for him, which then received the sanction of parliament, were certainly materially different from those under which it was now proposed that a provision for a royal establishment should be made. The illustrious individual in whose favour that provision was made, was then distinguished by the situation in which he stood with respect to the throne. Yet, on no principle of reasoning could it be maintained, that he was then as near the Crown as the duke of Clarence must be considered to be at present. At that period his majesty was between fifty and sixty, the prince of Wales was under thirty, and not married. Yet for the duke of York it had been thought right to grant a provision which, including 3,000l. arising from military emoluments, amounted to 40,000l. per annum. He was thus recognized by parliament as standing very near to the throne. Now, the duke of York having no descendants, and the Prince Regent having lost the only child with which Providence had blessed him, the duke of Clarence, according to all the calculations of probabilities, was at present nearer to the succession to the throne, than the duke of York was in 1792.

He trusted that the House, taking this into consideration, would see that ministers, in proposing that the duke of Clarence under such circumstances should receive what parliament had given to the duke of York twenty-six years ago, when the value of money was much greater than at present, had treated the question as one purely British, and had been actuated by no motive that they need hesitate to avow. With respect to the junior branches of the royal family, a greater difficulty existed, for ministers had no precise guide to go by, as they had in the case of the duke of Clarence. They, however, wished to keep the expense within the narrowest limits. He had been unable to give the House the particulars of what was intended to be proposed, till an opportunity arrived for explaining the considerations which had regulated the conduct of ministers in deciding on the amount of the provisions which they had taken upon themselves to recommend. They had thought it would be right to add 12,000l. to the existing income of such of their royal highnesses as should marry with the royal consent, by which their income would be raised from 18,000l. to 30,000l. per annum. The House, in looking at the position in which these illustrious personages stood, would see that there was a marked distinction between their situation, living unmarried, and the situation in which they would be placed after marriage, exposed as they would be to all the contingent expenses of a family. Out of the 12,000l. proposed to be granted, it was intended that, as in the case of the duchess of York, 4,000l. should be deducted and settled as pin money on the royal brides. He would then appeal to the House, if an addition of 8,000l. or 9,000l. to the incomes of the royal dukes were not necessary, on their marriage, to enable them to live in a manner corresponding with that exalted rank to which it had been the will of Providence that they should be born. Such an augmentation appeared to him to be indispensable, unless the allowances of the illustrious persons were placed on too high a scale before their marriage, it could not be thought that the addition which had been contemplated was too great, if they wished to preserve them from the greatest calamity to themselves and to parliament—the contracting of debts. He would put this question to the House and to the country, notwithstanding the irritation which had been excited, and which it was attempted to instil into the public mind, and he felt confident the reasonableness of the proposition could not be denied—it could not but be known that there was a disposition to inflame the public mind on this subject;—but he would ask if ministers were guilty of an improvident act in proposing an addition of 8,000l. to the incomes of the royal dukes on their marriage, and if, without such an augmentation, though wholly exempted from taxation, their means would be sufficient to carry them and their families on, without incurring the reproach of being in debt? The 12,000l. proposed was not a larger sum than appeared to be necessary, when it was remembered that 4,000l. was to be deducted as an allowance for their illustrious consorts. The case of the duke and duchess of Gloucester every one seemed disposed to look to as furnishing a certain criterion, by which the judgment of the House might be guided; but no question had been decided in the abstract by that House, which came exactly home to the case of these illustrious individuals. The duke of Gloucester marrying a princess already endowed by parliament, it was not thought necessary to come to parliament for any further provision, as altogether, the income of his royal highness and his illustrious consort, amounted to 28,000l., independent of the military emoluments enjoyed by his royal highness. It had not appeared to ministers that it would be consistent with the dignity of the throne, and with the spirit of the proceedings of parliament on similar occasions deliberately to place the sons of the sovereign in a state of subordination and inferiority to the nephew of the Crown and his illustrious consort. When it was considered, that the grant to the prince Leopold was 50,000l.; that the grant to the duke of York had raised his allowance to 40,000l. a year, in 1792; that the duke and duchess of Gloucester enjoyed since their marriage 28,000l. a year—they felt that they could not place the allowances of the sons of the king, on whom the hopes of succession rested, at less than 30,000l. a year.

He had now submitted the reasons which had influenced the Prince Regent's ministers in their view of the subject. They had certainly flattered themselves, that this proposition would be adopted by the House in its largest extent, as it would have been provided for without throwing new burthens on the country. This being the general scale of the allowances which it had been in their intention to propose for all the married sons of his majesty, they had thought that it would not be just or proper to make an exception in the case of the duke of Cumberland. On the marriage of his royal highness a proposal for a grant had been submitted to parliament, and had been at first carried, but when embodied in a bill it had beep negatived. Ministers did not, however, think that the opinion of parliament, on that occasion, was so recorded as to form an obstacle to placing his royal highness on the same footing as his brothers. There were feelings on the proposition at that time which presented serious obstacles to the grant. At that time the marriage was considered more of a private than of a public nature, but from events which had since taken place, it had assumed a public character; and ministers would have failed in their duty had they not resolved to bring the subject again before the House. They could, indeed, take no other course without resolving to act on the principle of perpetual exclusion. He thought the House would be unwilling to force that illustrious person into exile. It appeared but just, that the same provisions should be made for him as for the junior branches of the royal family. The whole expense of the proposed arrangement, supposing the duke of Kent should marry, would amount annually to 55,500l. It was proposed to give the duke of Clarence 19,500l. to make up his income 40,000l., and to give the dukes of Cumberland, Kent, and Cambridge an additional 12,000l. per annum, to bring up their incomes 30,000l. An out fit to a corresponding amount was also to be proposed. No part of the arrangement of 1792 had been more disapproved, and no part of that of 1815 more approved, than that which related to the outfit; as it was only by means of a liberal outfit that any chance was afforded to the royal pair of being enabled to avoid getting in debt. In consequence of the outfit and the allowance the charge created in the present year would have been 110,000l. The permanent annual charge would have been 55,500l. By this arrangement no new burthen would have been thrown oh the country, as the expense would have been covered by funds which had been established for other purposes. On this however he laid no stress. Either way it would be as broad as it was long, whether the money was advanced by the public, or whether he intercepted those savings which would otherwise go into their pocket. This did not affect, the wisdom or the expediency of the measure. It however did appear, that this expense could be met by the falling in of claims on the consolidated fund; which either had already ceased, or which would be terminated within a very limited period. In the first instance; by the death of her royal highness the Princess Charlotte, there was a falling In of 10,000l. The fund set apart from the income of the Prince of Wales for the liquidation of his debts, he had the satisfaction to state, would in the course of two years be liberated, and thus 50,000l. would be annually applicable to other purposes, which 50,000l., with the other 10,000l. would have covered the whole expense of the intended arrangement. Bowing with all deference to the feeling which had been manifested by the House on this subject, ministers were still of opinion it was their duty in the first instance to act as they had done, seeing the arrangement contemplated would neither have thrown any newburthen on the people, nor impoverished the consolidated fund more than it had been impoverished before.

He had now to state the outline of the plan, which, under all the circumstances, it was the intention of ministers to submit to the House, and the sources from which the charges of it were to be met. Whatever indignity he might meet with from the other side of the House, for proposing a smaller sum than it was in the first instance meant to call for, he should never feel the course he was taking to be inconsistent with the discharge—the honourable discharge—of his duty. Though he allowed that the man who gave up any public principle to be the instrument of a measure which he could not approve, abdicated both his character and his duty, he did not think the reduction of the amount of an allowance, in deference to the general opinion, involved any abandonment of public principle. He thought, on the contrary, the duty of a minister was, to collect the general opinion, and to bring the feelings, to a common purpose. In making an arrangement which affected the junior branches of the royal family there was a marked distinction, as he had before contended, between their situation as un-married men, and as being in a married state, He conceived, in the arrangement made, nothing ought to be deducted from the regular incomes of their royal highnesses in, consideration of any emoluments which they might receive professionally. Nor did he think that either in their married or unmarried state, the income of the royal dukes allowed by parliament should be regulated by the sums which they derived from other quarters. To adopt such a principle, would be to deprive the public of all benefit; that might be derived from their talents, and haw cruel the situation in which they would be placed, the common motives of life taken away from them, and they compelled to feel that nothing they might accomplish could elevate them to a more eminent situation! Though born to an exalted station, they were already subjected to some cruel privations, disqualifications, and exemptions, which fell on no other class of subjects. Others, from the exercise of their talents, might realize fortunes, not only for themselves, but for their descendants. It was the peculiar lot of the members of the royal family to be exempted from opportunities of establishing independent fortunes for themselves or their posterity. It might be wise to make them dependent on the regard of the people; but ought this principle to be pushed to the extreme length of forbidding them, under any circumstances, to endeavour to improve their lot, and gain an addition to that income which was granted by parliament? The whole of the royal dukes they ought to be careful to treat only as members of the royal family. They ought not to decide, from the personal character of any one of them, on the question submitted to their consideration, as this would open the door to endless debates, equally Unpleasant and improper, on the personal merits of individuals. A false impression had gone abroad on the subject of the emoluments of the duke of Cambridge at Hanover; and an hon. member had wished Some information as to their amount to be laid before the House. This was that which could not regularly be given. His royal highness was exposed to much misrepresentation in this particular; but he could state that there was nothing in the character of his situation that ought to deter the House from showing their affection and their duty, by making the provision for him that would he proposed, and which he would say, common justice the individual required them to grant. He could assure the House that this illustrious duke had no intention of separating himself from this country, or of residing permanently abroad; nor had he ever any such intention, for the whole of his establishment in this country remained during the time he had been abroad exactly on the same footing in which it had been during his residence in this country. It was very important for the House to keep this in view. As to the amount of the emolument of this royal duke, it as material to state, that the whole of his royal highness's pay, as head of the array in Hanover, was only about 5,300l. a year. Beyond this, all the other emoluments attached to that situation did not exceed 700l., making the total amount of his income derived from his situation at the head of the army in Hanover not above 6,000l. a year. At the same time he must contend, that a temporary employment abroad, such as that now held by his royal highness, ought not to weigh with the House in making a provision of the kind now proposed, and ought not to preclude the House, as it had never on any former occasion precluded the House, from making a provision such as was due to the son of a king of Great Britain.—Then, as to the duke of Clarence, he had no revenue but that granted him by parliament, with the exception of his pay as an admiral, which amounted only to 1,100l. a year. He wished it to be understood, that all the statements which he submitted upon this subject would be substantiated by documents which it was meant, in due time, to law before the House. With respect to the income derived from the appointments of the duke of Kent, the returns of it had not yet been made up. But still, so far as it could be ascertained, he would state it. That royal duke had the government of Gibraltar and a regiment of infantry. As to the latter, a regiment of infantry was not very profitable to any man; but to a royal duke, certainly much less so than to any other person. His government and his regiment together did not produce his royal highness above 6,000l. a year. And here again he must remark, that this was an income arising from casual circumstances, and therefore liable to the same observation which he had before made. But with regard to the emoluments which he had stated, he hoped that they would not serve to exclude the royal personages alluded to from that degree of liberality which they would otherwise experience from the House. Such a proceeding would, indeed, be both unjust and impolitic; because it would operate injuriously, as well to the fair claims of the individuals of the royal family, as to the interests of the public service. He need not describe the consequence of establishing the principle, that any sum obtained by a member of the royal family from any public appointment should operate a proportionate reduction in the settled revenue of that individual. It was obviously just and po- litic, that the monarch should have the means of encouraging the exertion of his own children, as well as that of other individuals, for the public service; nothing, indeed, should be allowed to interfere with that disposition, which was at once congenial with parental feeling, and contributive to the public benefit. Those who had the highest interest in the state should not be deprived of their due reward for serving it; for it would amount to a sort of privation to allow that reward to form a ground for diminishing their fair claims to a settled revenue. But, to return to the case of the duke of Kent, his royal highness, it was known, was much longer without his proper provision than any other member of the royal family. His royal highness had spent fourteen years in service abroad in various colonies, which was three years longer than any other member of the royal family had served abroad, and six years longer than some. It therefore could not be thought much, if, after such a period of service, he had the emoluments of the government of Gibraltar, and of a regiment of infantry. It would surely be foreign to the feelings of the House to suppose, that to a proposal for providing a suitable income for a member of the royal family on the occasion of his marriage, it could be answered, that the proposal would not be acceded to, because that personage for whom the provision was asked, had already such and such casual sources of revenue. That the produce of such appointments should form any reason for deducting from the grant proper to be made to the members of the royal family, would, in his view, be quite as unfair as to make staff-allowances a ground for such deduction. He trusted the House would feel, that an adequate provision for the members of the royal family was the best course to pursue, for the purpose of guarding those illustrious personages, who, for the public interest, should always be enabled to stand high in the public estimation, from contracting any debts.

On these grounds he felt confident that the House, in deciding on what would be a proper provision for their royal highnesses the dukes of Kent and Cambridge, would not consider the temporary addition to their revenue which they at present received from situations now held by them, as a ground for making that provision less than the House would otherwise think suitable. After the feelings which had already disclosed themselves in the House on the general question, his majesty's servants had felt it their duty, in fixing the amount of the provision which they meant to propose, to do so on the closest possible calculation, and on the very lowest scale consistent with justice to their royal highnesses. In making this estimate ministers had not merely acted on their own judgment; they had taken the advice of persons who had that degree of experience in such matters which could alone give weight to their opinions, and authority to their information. In taking this advice ministers felt they were doing that which was an indispensable duty; for it must be allowed, that it was one thing to administer the affairs of a private family, and a very different thing to administer the affairs of a royal duke. They had gone into the subject with a determination to form their judgment on a most minute view of the case. Having formed an estimate on these principles, and on such advice, the result was, that while nothing like extravagance should be tolerated, it was indispensably necessary, to maintain the splendor becoming his station; that an annual provision should be made for his royal highness the duke of Clarence, in addition to what was already granted, of 12,000l., or at the very lowest 10,000l. With less they were persuaded that a proper establishment for his royal highness could not be supported without involving him in debt, which was the very evil, above all others, which the House would desire to provide against. Looking at the present situation of his royal highness, they felt that less than 10,000l. would be absolutely insufficient for the purpose. Therefore, in calling upon the House to vote such a sum, he felt their decision upon it would be equivalent to deciding whether or not any sum at all ought to be voted. For the duke of Cambridge, the duke of Cumberland, and (in case he should marry) the duke of Kent, the very lowest sum which could be proposed was 6000l. In the case of marriage, the provision for the wife in the shape of jointure and pin-money, was to be considered. As to pin-money, that was of course to be allowed by the husband from his own means; and such of course was to be the case with any of the royal dukes. The pin-money allowed to the duchess of York was 4,000l. a year; in the case of the duke of Clarence it was thought it could not possibly be made less than 3,000l. When this was considered, it would be found that, in fact, the proposed allowance to the duke of Clarence, when pin-money was deducted, would amount to no more than 7,000l. a year; while the grants to the other princes would amount to only 3,000l. a year each. He would submit to the House whether any smaller sum could be proposed; and he could assure them, that his majesty's ministers had gone into the subject with a painful desire of meeting the wishes of the House as far as was consistent with a due regard to the dignity of the royal family, and to the interests of the people. Ministers had not, however, taken into account that which had never heretofore been regarded by parliament upon cases of this nature, namely, the amount of the revenues derived by our princes from their appointments, either at home, or under any foreign prince, and particularly a prince so closely connected with this Country as the sovereign of Hanover. If the House felt interested in a proper provision with a view to the succession to the Crown, then he was sure it must be allowed that this provision could not properly be fixed at a lower rate. The succession to the throne was a subject in which the House and the country certainly took a very warm interest; and he was sure that, in making this provision, the House would desire to prevent the country from being exposed to the risk of the succession devolving on any of the Houses on the Continent connected with our royal family.

He had now opened to the House and he hoped he had done it fairly) all that his majesty's government originally intended—what they now proposed, and the views and principles on which they had acted. He had Certainly stated all that ministers had conceived necessary to describe their intention—that intention he had, indeed, endeavoured fully to explain, for neither himself nor his colleagues wished to conceal the motives upon which they acted. They did not indeed, desire to shrink from the responsibility of proposing to place the sons of the king in a proper position to save them from debt and embarrassment—to enable them to sustain their due rank in society. In now proposing the additional sum of 6,000l, for the younger sons, he only asked for the same provision which parliament had made from the year 1767 till 1795 or 1796, for his royal highness the late duke of Gloucester, whose revenue during that time was 24,000l. The present duke of Gloucester had 28,000l. He would therefore put it to the House, whether, if any provision at all was to be made, it could be lower than that proposed which would make the total amount of the revenue of these royal dukes 24,000l. a year. He must avow to the House, that he experienced very great pain, not merely personally, but in his public capacity, in proposing a provision on this scale, for he felt that he was running a risk that he was providing an income too low. It was certainly pushed to the very lowest point. Ministers had done every thing in their power to accommodate their views to the wishes of the House, and to render their propositions consonant to the principles of public economy. They had, indeed, pared down the allowances to be proposed much lower, he apprehended, than many members might be disposed to approve. For it was not by any means improbable that several respectable individuals might regard the proposed addition as inadequate for the maintenance of the proper dignity of the princes in the event of their marriage. His own opinion he had yielded to the judgment of others, for whom he entertained the highest respect. But having stated the views of ministers, he would now leave the whole case to be determined by the judgment and liberality of the House. He had, however, he felt on recollection, omitted to state the amount of the jointure proper to be granted to each of the wives of the princes. At first it was proposed that the same jointure should be provided for the duchess of Clarence as for the duchess of York, viz. 8,000l. It was now proposed to make it 7,000l. for the duchess of clarence, and 6,000l. for the consorts of the other royal dukes. The proposal now was that the amount of the proposed provision, added to the present income of the duke of Clarence, should make his revenue in the whole 28,000l. instead of 40,000l. as first, proposed, and the other royal dukes, 24,000l. a year, instead of 30,000l. He did not recollect that there was any thing else which it was necessary for him to offer to the House on this occasion; With these observations he would submit the proposal to the House once more, requesting them to consider whether by agreeing to it they would not take the best means of providing for the succession to the Crown The noble lord concluded by moving the following resolution—"That his Majesty be enabled to grant an additional yearly sum of money out of the consolidated fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, not exceeding the sum of 6,000l. to make a suitable provision for his royal highness the duke of Clarence, upon his marriage."

said, that when he saw the distress which prevailed in the country; when he perceived that it would be necessary to raise eleven or twelve millions to supply the deficiencies of the current year; when it was known that the Prince Regent had given up 50,000l. annually of his own income; when ministers themselves had made sacrifices, in order to lessen the general burthens;—when he was aware of these circumstances, he could not but feel convinced, that the present time was a most improper one to bring forward such a motion as that which was now before the House. He did not think that the noble lord had altogether put the question, as to the sources from which these additional grants were to come, in its proper light. It was true, that no additional burthen might be placed on the country in consequence of the grants; but it was also true, that the money proposed to be so applied, would be a saving to the country of so much. As to the comparison which had been made of the allowance to the duke of York in 1792, he did not think it was a fair one, whether with reference to the case itself, or to the circumstances in which the country was placed at the time. Let the House but look at the state in which the country was placed at that period, and, comparing it with its present situation, they would see from the comparison, that the present was not the proper time to take any thing from the public purse, which was not indispensably necessary. The duke of Clarence did not, in his opinion, stand; in a situation that entitled him to a greater allowance than the junior branches of the royal family. Supposing that, after receiving this provision, and entering into the marriage state, his royal highness had no issue, there would then be the same reasons for augmenting the revenue of his next junior brother was not his present income sufficient, if freed if from incumbrances? And, with those incumbrances, would it not be swallowed up or diverted from its purpose? To him it appealed, that at present the distinction was not called for, and ought not to be made The way in which he vicwed the motion was, as affording a means of paying the debts of his royal highness. With respect to the duke of Cumberland, he thought any addition was unnecessary. His royal highness had not been put to much additional expense in consequence of his marriage; and unless he saw some striking proofs in his royal highness's family, that an additional income was necessary, he should certainly oppose it; or if there was one of the junior branches of the royal family to whom he would more willingly than to another grant an additional allowance, it was the duke of Kent. If, indeed, the other royal dukes had pursued the same system as the illustrious personage alluded to, for the discharge of their debts, more would be done to maintain the proper character of the royal family, than could be expected to arise from the adoption of the present proposition. He should have no objection to an appropriate grant in case of the widowhood of any of their royal highness's consorts. He did not mean to propose any direct negative upon the motion before the committee, but he felt it his duty to call upon gentlemen to pause before they agreed to that motion—to postpone the consideration of a motion for augmenting the burthens of the country, until it was known whether the country was in a state to meet that augmentation. Upon these grounds, the hon. member proposed, that the farther consideration of the motion should be postponed until this day week.

The Chairman said, that the amendment of the hon. gentleman would not be regular. His object would probably be obtained by moving, as an amendment, that he should now leave the chair. Mr. Barclay then moved, as an amendment, " That the chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again."

begged the House to consider, that the illustrious personages for whom they were now called upon to make a provision, were cut off from many sources of emolument which were open to persons in a different situation in society. He was decidedly in favour of the original motion. If the royal personages in question contracted marriages with illustrious families, it was, he conceived, incumbent on the House to make such provision for them as the national dignity required; and if so, he did not think that any proposal for such provision could be more moderate and unobjectionable than that before the House. He was altogether averse to profusion at this particular crisis, yet, in justice to these royal personages, and the Scale of expenditure consequent upon their exalted situation, under the circumstance of a marriage, he should feel it his duty to support the grant proposed.

congratulated the House upon the effect which its virtuous determination in favour of economy had produced upon the conduct of ministers. For it was manifest, that a very material change had taken place in their plan, with regard to the amount of the sum which they proposed to grant upon this occasion. But notwithstanding this change, he could not reconcile it with his sense of duty to withdraw his opposition to the measure. The noble lord, it was evident, still persisted in approving of his original views, and therefore he had expressed a doubt, truly, whether the House would come down to his reduced proposition. This expression should serve to put the House upon its guard against the plan of gross extravagance which was manifestly in contemplation. In addition to the regret occasioned by the melancholy death of the Princess Charlotte, was the apprehension that that event might lead to some instability or uncertainty as to the succession to the Crown. That apprehension was now, he perceived, brought forward to reconcile the House to the imposition of additional burthens upon the country. He trusted that the marriage in contemplation was not contracted with any mercenary view, and he hoped the contracting parties would enjoy all the happiness that could be wished, without any addition to the burthens of the people. He would not yield to any man in respect for the Crown, and in genuine principles of loyalty; but he would show that loyalty, by using the language of plain truth—and he wished ministers had addressed the same language to their Prince upon this subject. If they had, he was persuaded the proposition before the committee would never have been brought forward. The petitioners for what was called radical reform, were told, that they had nothing but revolution in view, and that that House did not require any reform. But he would tell the noble lord, that if propositions of this nature were pressed, much of the complaints of the reformers would be justified, and the security of the Crown would be more endangered by the faithlessness of its supporters, than by the violence or madness of any class of the people. He congratulated the House upon the principle and spirit which it had manifested upon this occasion. For it had availed itself of the opportunity to repel the calumnies circulated against it, by showing that it was not less solicitous for the protection and advantage of the people, than for the interests of the Crown. This was the course for the House to pursue, in order to maintain its own character, and to secure the confidence of the country. It was the obvious and bounden duty of the House, to consider the condition and circumstances of the country before it consented to add to its burthens. There was notoriously nothing in the state or prospect of our finances to warrant or excuse any such addition. He hoped, therefore, that the House would at once resist the proposition, and not wait to take its tone from popular meetings. The hon. member concluded with observing, that with regard to the proposed grant to the duke of Cumberland, he saw no reason whatever why the House should accede to that now, which was rejected on a former occasion; for never, perhaps, had the House so decidedly acquiesced in the universal voice of the people, as in the vote which it pronounced upon that occasion.

said, it was perfectly obvious that his majesty's ministers were in a position of singular embarrassment, but it appeared to him the parliament itself was under circumstances of perplexity almost equal to theirs. On the one hand, they were told that a farther provision was absolutely necessary for the junior branches of the royal family contracting these marriages—on the other, they knew that the people, embittered by the recollection of a period of suffering almost unexampled having under their eyes a situation of the finances, which had prevented the country from even doing common justice to those who had spent the best exertions of their lives, or had ventured those lives in the service of the state, were in no temper to bear any grants of any sort called for, or uncalled for—Things standing thus, he should support the proposition of the member for Southwark, to delay coming to a decision till they had the returns of what provision these illustrious individuals were actually in the receipt of from the public, and till the accounts of the year's revenue had been laid before the House. An hon. member had alluded to the Royal Marriage act. Mr. Gurney said, he should also allude to another act, namely, that of the 10th of Anne, giving the rank and precedence of princes of the blood to all the descendants of the electress Sophia, " any law, statute or custom to the contrary notwithstanding." This act, springing from the junction of Harley and the discontented Whigs—all parties, at the moment, bidding against each other for the favour of the successor to the Crown—changed the whole tenor of the law and custom of England. The electress was the third in descent from the Crown. We were now in the sixth descent from the electress Sophia. The Royal Marriage acts came upon this, and together placed the junior branches of the house of Hanover in a situation, divested of all support from either domestic alliance or territorial possession; which must go on increasing their embarrassment and the parliament's perplexity for ever and ever.—The old policy of the kings of England was, to marry their younger sons either to foreign princesses with dowry, or to the great heiresses of the country. It was a succession of four marriages with English heiresses that carried the House of Lancaster to the throne; and successive marriages with three great heiresses—the last of them involving the possessions of a fourth—brought back the crown to the elder line of York again.—Mr. Gurney said, that the civil wars of those times might be adduced as marking the consequences which followed from the old system; but it must be, recollected, that the great nobility of those days possessed whole provinces—that the mode of their expense was the keeping together numerous bands of armed retainers—that the Commons were almost powerless, and that whereas in the then state of society, the system pursued rendered the royal family too strong for the public peace, so, under the existing state of society, the system which had succeeded it, rendered the royal family so weak that they could not support themselves. By law, foreigners, through all generations, never came before the eyes of the public but in the unpopular light of demanding grants of money from parliament—which, with the increasing calls on the finances of the country, and the lowered value of the money so granted parliament would find it more and more difficult to supply. On the whole, he certainly approved of the motion of the member for Southwark as it at least gave time for the receipt of those accounts which would be necessary to guide the House in any decision they might ultimately come to.

defended the meeting called at lord Liverpool's against the imputations which honourable gentlemen opposite endeavoured to level at it. To such a class of men he should always consider it an honour to belong, notwithstanding the designation which an hon. and learned gentleman gave them, when he called them a click. They were men of high character, and with such a degree of property as constituted a fair basis of responsibility. They did not, perhaps, possess, in as high degree as the hon. and learned gentleman, what he (Mr. S.) would call—taking the expression from the same source as the hon. and learned gentleman took the term click, namely, from the Slang Dictionary—the gift of the gab [a laugh], but they were gentlemen, from their character and connexions, best calculated to convey the general impression of the country on any subject about to be submitted to the notice of parliament. In his judgment, very material benefits might follow, though he was aware he could not say so in the present instance from meetings thus constituted. With respect to the particular proposition before the House, he could not go to the extent of the noble lord's motion—he could not consent that the House should provide for the duke of Clarence on the ground of his being a presumptive heir to the throne, a situation in which he did not stand. It was true, that his royal highness the duke of York was married and had no issue; but might not that illustrious personage, by the visitation of a family calamity, lose his lady? and in such an event, would not the royal duke have reasonable grounds, on a second marriage, to demand being placed in a situation similar to that in which the prince of Saxe-Cobourg was placed by parliament? Under such circumstances, could parliament refuse an establishment suitable to the station of the royal duke, after having before established the precedent in the case of prince Leopold? It was impossible for him to agree to the present demand for the duke of Clarence. To the extent of 6,000l he was disposed to assent. But before he granted even that, he would ask, was the House in possession of the necessary information to assure it, that such an increase in the provision would be applied to uphold the splendor and dignity of that illustrious personage? He did think, that before any increase was granted, the whole of the circumstances ought to be before parliament. In considering the propriety of an increase, the House was bound to consider what were the present allowances of his royal highness? Independently of his annual allowance of 18,000l., the duke of Clarence received 2,500l. by treasury warrants, with 1,100l. as his half, as admiral of the fleet. Added to this, he was ranger of Bushy-park, had a charming residence, with appendages of no less value than 8,000l. per annum. These things should be fairly stated. But at all events, before any increase of provision was given, he contended, that as the professed object of the present measure was to enable the royal duke to support a greater splendor, it ought first to be ascertained, that the sum would be made available to the purpose. But if public report spoke truly, the duke of Clarence was greatly in debt. These debts amounted to between 70 and 80,000l. An increase of 10,000l. per annum, under such circumstances, for an increase of splendor, went to place his royal highness in a degraded, rather than in an elevated situation. He feared it would be found, that the House was actually throwing away the money. The noble lord who introduced the proposition had stated, that a liberal outfit was the best antidote against incurring debt. But if the debts were already incurred, the antidote would be inoperative. With respect to the junior members of the royal family, he would have no objection to a regulated grant on their marriage. Much to the honour of his royal highness the duke of Kent, he had made every sacrifice to relieve himself, from the pressure of his debts. In two years, it was stated, that illustrious personage would be wholly free from every incumbrance. If at that period any alliance was in contemplation, to an increased allowance he could not object. He was ready to admit, if the state of the country would permit it, that 30,000l. should be the allowance of the royal dukes on their marriage; but if the public necessity interposed, the royal dukes, in common with every other description of persons in the country, must yield to the pressure of the times [Hear, hear, hear!]. When he spoke of his royal highness the duke of Cambridge, it was impossible not to be impressed with the uniform tenour of his conduct, and particularly with the manner in which he had avoided the incurring of any debts. Indeed, his revered and royal father had truly said of him, some years ago, in the language of Eton School, with which his majesty, from a feeling of protection, was familiar, that he had not made his first fault even then. Any increase of provision to that illustrious personage, could alone be applied to sustain the due splendor of his station. With regard to the duke of Cumberland, the question had been long ago settled. The various divisions on the proposed increase, had unequivocally manifested the opinion of the House and the country. Those who opposed the grant, increased in strength on every progressive discussion. From all parts of the kingdom, members hurried to express their opinion, and to state what they knew to be the feelings of the country. Never was there a question more decidedly settled.—A course, the reverse of what was ordinarily pursued, was taken on that alliance. No message had been made to parliament; no expression of its opinion was called for. The royal assent, it was true, was given; but parliament was asked indirectly to give its approbation. That marriage had been generally disapproved of; and he felt himself justified in saying, that parliament on that subject had not been fairly treated; and he must say, that parliament was not fairly treated in the present measure, by hooking the duke of Cumberland into the proposed grants for the other royal dukes [Hear, hear! from all parts of the House]. He was precluded by the forms of the House from proposing an amendment on an amendment; but if the amendment of the hon. member for Southwark should be negatived, it was his intention to move, that there be laid before the House an account of the whole revenue of his royal highness the duke of Clarence.

rose, but was interrupted for some time by loud cries of Spoke, spoke! The noble lord said, the House was in a committee, and being in a committee, any member had a right to address the chairman as often as he thought proper, At any rate, he fell he had a right to call upon the House to allow him to remove a misapprehension of the hon. gentleman who spoke last. That hon. gentleman had stated, that the duke of Clarence derived not less than 3,000l. a year from his residence and advantages attached to it. Now, including all possible advantages and means of emolu- ments, sheep-walks, &c., it would be more correct to estimate the emoluments derived from thence at 100l. a year than 3,000l. The hon. gentleman said, that the debts of the duke of Clarence were of such an amount, as would render the proposed vote nugatory and useless for the purpose proposed by it. This was by no means the fact. He could speak positively as to this, for he had entered into a minute examination of the affairs of his royal highness, and he was enabled to state, that a provision was made for paying them off, so that they would soon be completely extinguished; and that after covering the debt, there would remain a clear surplus of revenue to that royal duke, if the present vote was agreed to, of 25,000l. a year.

, declared, that under the present distresses of the country, with every inclination to increase the due splendor of the royal family, he could not accede to the proposed grant. Though he differed from the noble lord (Lascelles) who so properly expressed his opinion on the measure when first proposed, yet he was willing to afford his testimony to his integrity and public spirit on many public occasions. As a constitutional Whig for forty years, he must also say, in answer to what had fallen from the hon. member for Surrey respecting his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Brougham)-, that as long as his hon. and learned friend acted on the principles that be had avowed in that House, he should have his most decided support.

said, he had not been able to bring his mind to an approbation of the sums which he had reason to believe it was at first intended to propose. He did not think that, regard being paid to all the circumstances in which the country was situated, that proposition was admissible at the present period. At the some time, he had always conceived that some additional provision was necessary when any of the royal family entered into the marriage state. In this view he thought the modified arrangement submitted by the noble lord was one which there was sufficient reason for adopting.

said:—Mr. Chairman; I have almost always supported the measures of his majesty's ministers, from a firm conviction of the soundness of the principles on which they have acted; but I am extremely sorry that they have brought forward this measure. I have always, Sir, supported every measure which I thought conducive to the dignity and honour of the royal family: for I have ever been a warm friend to the House of Brunswick, I have felt this attachment ever since I was capable of forming any opinion upon any subject; and I feel it still. Sir, I will support that family even to the last drop of my blood—I will, Sir. [A laugh]. I am a plain spoken man, Sir, and perhaps though my language be not so choice or so eloquent as that which is sometimes heard in this House, I may Still be able to express intelligibly that which I do most strongly feel. [Cheering]. It is the duty of every member to attend to the interests of the royal family, but we must attend also to the interests of the people, and I cannot consent to humbug them—[A laugh, and cheering]. If the hon. gentlemen on the other side, who cheer me so loudly imagine that in what I have said I wish to make my sentiments correspond with theirs, they are mistaken. On this occasion, as on all others, I act with most perfect independence; and I think, Sir, that the principles which guide my opinion on this subject, as on most others, are widely different from those of the hon. gentlemen on the other side who just now cheered me. There is no man living who honours his king and his country more than I do. I consider the interests and the honour of the Crown; but I must consider the interests of the people too. Sir, the distress of the people is great—less than it was, thank God!—but still it is great. I think that the wise and salutary measures pursued by his majesty's government have been principally the means of alleviating that distress. In the present state of the country, we cannot venture to impose any additional burthens on the people. If we let things go on in a quiet way, as they now are, we shall, I think, act wisely. But at this time to think of imposing any new burthens for the purpose now in view, will be to insult the nation, and will be most injurious to the royal family, on the marriage of the duke of Clarence, I believe every man will allow something ought to be done. But then we must make such provision only as the circumstances of the country will permit. Farther than that we must not go If the royal family are alive to the distresses of the people (and I am sure they are), they wish for no greater provision than such as I have mentioned. In this view I consider the proposition now submitted to the House as one of the most injudicious that ever was brought forward. I will vote for some provision to the duke of Clarence; but the proposition now before House I shall most decidedly oppose.

remarked, that there were so many points involved in this question, of which different views might, be taken, that he was desirous of stating, very shortly, the principles by which his votes on the subject would be governed. He thought it the duty of the House, in the first place, to remove from their minds every consideration, excepting that of what allowance it was proper for parliament to grant, with a view to the marriages in contemplation. On the subject of individual character, he conceived the House was not then sitting in judgment. If the marriages were proper, it was fit they should be supported; and if an improper use were made of the bounty of parliament, their royal highnesses, and not the House, were the persons responsible. Neither ought their opinions to be directed by any reference to emoluments drawn from private sources, or the reward of public and honourable service The only question to be entertained by the House was, the fitting provision to be made by this country for its princes, and the fair and necessary increase required on their entering the marriage state; supposing always, that the marriage to be contracted was honourable in itself, and worthy of the approbation of the country. Looking, then, at this simple question, in the only view in which it ought to be regarded, he was sorry that he could not concur in the first resolution proposed. He, stated this with unfeigned regret; for nothing could be more painful to him, than to find himself precluded from meeting the language of manly and honourable conciliation with the cordial and entire acceptance that the noble load's intentions deserved. He trusted, however, that in opposing the resolution, he was acting in the strict discharge of his duty; and above all, that he was, wholly uninfluenced, as he trusted the House would be by any thing that might pass out of doors. It was indeed difficult in discussing a question of more amount to determine with certainty on the precise number of thousands which, without excess or deficiency, it was the duty of the House to grant. But he could not agree with the hon. member for Southwark, in the expediency of adjourn- ing this consideration of the resolution, for the purpose of investigating its details. Such discussions were necessarily painful; and it was of importance to bring them to a speedy termination, There was also an impropriety in prying too closely into the private affairs of the royal family. The continuation and frequency of public debates on these delicate subjects, were, even in parliament, if he were allowed to say it, more mischievous than they could possibly be beneficial.—He must therefore decidedly object to any further inquiry, even with a view of ascertaining the proper amount of the grant. And it did so happen, that ministers themselves had furnished the House with sufficient means of judging this matter. But three years ago they had laid down a measure of the proper increase of establishment, on the marriage of the younger members of the royal family He alluded to the sum proposed after the marriage of the duke of Cumberland. Whether wisely or unwisely he would not presume to inquire; or whether a reduced scale was adopted in the hope of gaining the assent of the House to a proposition, obnoxious in itself, ministers had then induced parliament, in the early stages of the bill which they brought forward, but which was fortunately afterwards thrown out, to the great satisfaction of the country, to recognize the particular sum of 6,000l. as the proper scale of increased provision on the marriage of the younger princes. If it was unsuitable, they had alone themselves to blame. They had suggested the precedent; and parliament could look to no other. Assuming, then, on their own example, the sum of 6,000l. to be a proper addition, he should be perfectly ready to grant it in all cases of marriages that met with the approbation of the House. But he saw no reason why the situation of the duke of Clarence, with reference to the succession, ought to constitute any exception to the rule, or distinguish him from the rest of the royal brothers. Between his marriage and that of the duke of York, he, for one, saw no analogy. In the one case, the death of the prince of Wales would have made the duke the next heir to the Crown. In the other, a possibility, though certainly no great probability existed, that two entirely distinct lines might intervene, and exclude both his royal highness and his posterity for many years from the succession. He was very willing to allow, that an im- mediate heir to the throne was in a situation which required the means of supporting very considerable dignity and splendor, but he could not external this principle so far as to the case of the duke of Clarence. But both to his royal highness and to the duke of Cambridge, he should not object to vote the additional allowance of 6,000l. in consideration of their marriage; and he thought that the same sum should be given to the duke of Kent, whenever a satisfactory marriage on the part of his royal highness should be communicated to the House. But in adverting to the renewed proposition in favour of the duke of Cumberland, he must say, that he approached it with feelings of the deepest regret; a regret, he admitted, much augmented by all that had fallen under public observation since that unfortunate subject was last disposed of by the House of Commons. The House had then advisedly come to a most deliberate and resolute determination. It was not for them to interfere with the royal prerogative, or to attempt any direct control over the marriages of the royal family: but they had one means of expressing their sense with respect to their propriety. This they had done in conformity with the feelings of the country on a former occasion; and he called on the House not to throw away their only resource on such occasions, by retracting their declared opinion. It must necessarily derogate from the authority of that opinion, if they should now be induced to reverse their proceedings. For himself he only could say, that on all the other parts of this painful subject, he had come down to the House that evening with much anxiety, and even somewhat of doubt upon his mind; but upon this part, he had made up a determination which he knew could not, because he felt it ought not, to be shaken.

was desirous that every grant which was necessary to the dignity of the royal family should be agreed to, yet he thought that some attention should be paid to the means which the country had of making good those grants.

wished to say a very few words on the motion immediately before the House. With regard to the amendment, he did not perceive the expediency of any delay in coming to a decision. On the contrary, he thought it just and fair to the royal family, that the House should come to a vote that night. It was not necessary to go minutely into circumstances; the only question was, whether, as certain members of the royal family were about to marry, parliament would sanction the necessary arrangements. He troubled the House with his opinion in consequence of what had fallen from him on a former night, and because he thought the question involved the credit of the House, as well as of the royal family. It had never been in his contemplation to refuse an adequate provision, although, in the actual state of the country, it had appeared to him that a smaller sum would answer the purpose. To the reduced allowances now proposed he felt no sort of objection.

disapproved of the distinction made in favour of the duke of Clarence, and could not consent to grant him more than the sum voted to the other younger brothers of the royal family, in the event of their marriage. He believed that the allowance of 6,000l. a year to the duke of Cumberland would have been carried, if the same activity had been employed to support, which had been exercised to defeat it.

said, he had been averse to the original proposition, not because he thought it disproportionate to the situation of the illustrious persons for whom it provided, but to the present circumstances of the country. He could not allow, however, that there was no ground for the distinction taken between the duke of Clarence and the other younger members of the royal family. The duke had, indeed, two elder brothers, but they were both married and without offspring. He wished the House to recollect that an excess of parsimony might have the effect of defeating the proposed marriages altogether. He saw no reason for revoking the opinion already expressed by the House in the case of the duke of Cumberland, and would remind them, that there was another branch of the royal family not now before them, who would in that case be equally entitled to some provision in the event of his forming an alliance of this nature.

felt it his duty to vote against the large sum; but if a smaller sum were proposed, he would support the proposition. He entreated his hon. friend, the member for Southwark, to withdraw his amendment, as it was extremely undesirable to keep a question of so delicate a nature hanging over the House; and as an explanation of the circumstances of the individual illustrious branches of the royal family had been given, there could be no occasion for delay. He called the grateful attention of the House to the highly respectable conduct of the duke and duchess of Gloucester, who in their domestic establishment were not less the subjects of general admiration in their neighbourhood, than the ever-to-be-lamented family at Claremont. This branch of the royal family, it should ever be remembered, had forborne to call on parliament for any augmentation of income, from their sense of the pressure of the times of the people of England.

expressed his surprise that any member should grudge to their royal highnesses, that increased provision which was necessary to enable them to meet those expenses to which their marriages would subject them. Adverting to her royal highness the duchess of Cumberland, he observed, that her royal highness's case was one of peculiar hardship. Her royal highness had now resided for three years in this country, and he would venture to say, without fear of contradiction, that she had acquired the respect of all who had had the honour of any intercourse with her; and he was persuaded from the bottom of his heart, that the more her royal highness was known, the more she would be esteemed. Her royal highness was indebted to the generosity of the king of Prussia for her maintenance ever since she had become a British princess; and he put it to the House, whether this was worthy of the pride of England. He could not have satisfied himself had he not made this statement.

signified his readiness to withdraw his amendment: but there being some cries in the negative, the chairman decided that a division must take place. The question was then loudly called for, and strangers were ordered to withdraw. The House, however, did not divide. Mr. Sumner then moved, That the grant be reduced from 10,000l. to 6,000l.

complained of the dilemma in which he was placed. He observed, that he was against any grant; and that if he voted against the 6,000l., he might occasion a majority in favour of the 10,000l., to which he was still more averse.

thought that the present incomes of the junior branches of the royal family were ample. He, as an individual, was obliged to attend to his domestic concerns, and he thought the royal dukes ought to do the same.

observed, that the difficulty arose from the embarrassed circumstances of the country. He thought that the utmost economy ought to be observed in the intended grants.

adverted to the difficulty complained of by Mr. Lambton, and recommended him to vote in the first instance for the smaller sum, which merely pledged the committee to a grant not exceeding 6,000l, after which he might, in a subsequent stage, vote for reducing that sum to an amount merely nominal.

understood that the noble lord meant to propose something by way of dower, to which he had no objection, and therefore would not concur in any vote that might break up the committee.

commented on the point of order, and stated, that if the House were against voting any grant at all, they might stop the proceedings of the committee altogether, or vote a nominal sum, which would answer the same purpose. But he rose for the purpose of expressing his approbation of the larger sum proposed. When he compared the proceedings of this night with the feeling that prevailed on the opening of the session, he was at a loss to conceive by what process the whole feeling then expressed had been so completely evaporated. If proper reasons were assigned why the junior branches of the royal family should contract marriage alliances, it was in the power of the House of Commons to give or withhold their support, and he trusted that necessity would be considered under present circumstances. If it was expedient to provide for the succession to the throne, it was an unfair and an imperfect view of the question then before them, to consider the circumstances of each specific marriage. With respect to his royal highness the duke of Clarence, he could assure the House that his royal highness would not have thought of contracting this marriage, ft never would have entered into his contemplation, to engage in this alliances if it had not been, pressed upon him as an act of public duty [Hear! hear! and a laugh.]—When he had been desired to state on what conditions he would contract the marriage, he had wished them to be limited to the provision of such means as would prevent him from incurring debts, and becoming in that odious manner a burthen to the country. As a contractor of debt he did not stand before the House. His noble friend had told them that his royal highness had voluntarily, and by arrangements of his own, set apart a portion of his income for the payment of interest, and he believed, also for the insurance of his life, and the gradual liquidation of the principal. Had it not been for this alliance, therefore, he would not have required any aid from parliament; and into this alliance his royal highness entered, not for his own private desire and gratification, but because it was pressed on him for the purpose of providing for the succession to the throne [a laugh]. If there was any thing ridiculous in this proposition, it was brought about by their own laws. The laws of the country prevented the royal family from entering into engagements of marriage at home: they insisted that the branches of their royal family should look abroad for wives; and when they came to do this, as in the present case not from liking or affection, for that could not be supposed possible when the persons had not even seen each other; if there was any absurdity in such an arrangement, it was referable to the laws themselves. And when they did marry, it was hard that parliament should refuse them the allowances necessary to the maintenance of their rank. The interval which had occurred between the bringing down of the message and the present discussion, had been employed in investigations which enabled him to state, that with less than 10,000l. additional a year, it was the opinion, not of the duke of Clarence himself, but of the persons most conversant in the domestic concerns of the royal households, that his royal highness could not take upon himself the state and dignity of a married prince without incurring the danger of contracting fresh debts. This opinion was given by those who had bees desired to ascertain how low the proposition could be brought. From the information since collected by ministers, they had felt it their duty, in obedience to the not to be mistaken, sense of the House, to reduce the grants which they had intended to propose. But it was equally their opinion and his majesty's government were anxious to bring down the proposed sum to the lowest practicable point that they could conscientiously recommend—that an addition of less than 10,000l. would render his royal highness's marriage, if not altogether impracticable, hazardous to the ease and honour of his royal highness and his royal consort. That was the plain ground On which the present question stood. He wished the committee to go to the division with the impression, that in voting for the reduction of the grant they would, in fact, vote to nullify the contract of marriage. In voting for the 10,000l. they would vote only for one half of the sum originally proposed [Hear, hear!] a sum, the propriety of which, both his noble friend and himself thought then, and still thought, maintainable by fair argument, but which they had no hesitation in surrendering to the expressed opinion of that House. The sum substituted ministers would take upon themselves to say would be effective for the purpose in view; but this was a responsibility which they would not be subject to were a less one to be substituted.

expressed his determination to support the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Surrey.

wished to correct a mistake into which a right hon. gentleman had fallen, as to what passed in the minds of many gentlemen on this side of the House. Many gentlemen on this side of the House might think 30,000l. a year a larger sum than was necessary to support the younger branches of the royal family. But they were of opinion also that if any additional allowance should be necessary to any of the branches of that family, there were other sources from which it might be obtained, than by imposing additional burthens on the people; and they wished for Such information as might show whether or not a sufficient sum might be taken from the Windsor establishment to answer all the purposes wanted? They did not wish that the members of the royal family should be placed in an unpleasant situation when they were married, but they were persuaded, that from that same establishment sufficient might be taken to serve all the ends proposed; and if, for One, he could not consent to go any farther, it was because, when he considered the aggregate of the sums enjoyed by the royal family, he could not help thinking there was fairly enough to answer all purposes. He was sure, the feeling which the country had so recently displayed for the loss of a branch of the royal family had not departed from them for nothing tended to alleviate that feeling. He was sure, the hearts of the people were deeply interested on that occasion, independently Of all political considerations. He believed that that feeling existed to the present moment; and he believed also, that the loyalty of the country to the royal family would not be diminished, if the proposition, so seasonably alluded to by an hon. gentleman, was acceded to.

agreed with the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, that sufficient might be taken from the Windsor establishment to answer every purpose for which an additional allowance was now asked. The duke of Clarence had, in his opinion, been sufficiently rewarded for any service, either naval or military, rendered by him to the country.

said, that as an idea seemed to be entertained by some members that a sufficient sum might be appropriated from the Windsor establishment to answer every purpose, he wished to set them right on that subject. He apprehended it was in no degree competent to the House, on a question of aid to the Crown on the occasion of any of the royal marriages, to take the Windsor, or any similar establishment, into their consideration. But he wished to draw the attention of the House a moment to the subject, for the purpose of showing that the general idea of the Windsor establishment being on such a footing that a large reduction might be made from it, was erroneous. He really believed, that if the committee gave the necessary attention to the subject, they would find that, with the single exception of the officers of state, the establishment was conducted on the principles of the strictest economy. Never, indeed, was any establishment conducted more with a view to economy. Now, what was the amount of the reduction which could be made in the quarter to which he had alluded? The whole of the salaries on the Windsor establishment, from the officers of state down to the meanest servant, amounted to 33,000l. Of this sum 10,000l. only was applicable to offices of that description, that could admit of being reduced. If they took away from this sum the allowance to those officers who were indispensably necessary, the whole sum, with respect to which there could be any question as to reduction, came within 6,000l. The Windsor arrangements had been adopted by parliament after the fullest discussion, and he hoped and trusted that before they proceeded to reduce any part of the es- tablishment, the subject would be discussed in a manner not less satisfactory.

wished to say a few words with respect to the assertion, that, except as to the officers, of state, it was impossible there could be any reduction in the Windsor establishment. When he read that which he was about to read to the committee, he hoped he should satisfy every member that the statement of the noble lord was completely erroneous. His majesty's privy purse amounted to 60,000l.—a privy purse of 60,000l. in the present state of his majesty [Hear, hear!]. Out of this sum he admitted that the allowance to the physicians had to be paid; but on the most liberal allowance to them, this would not amount to 18,000l. a year. There was also received out of the duchy of Lancaster 10,000l. So that here was 70,000l. a year which her majesty had, without there being any necessity of rendering an account for any part of it. With the deduction of an allowance to the physicians, and a few pensions, this was a fund for accumulation for somebody [Hear, hear!]. Her majesty's establishment amounted to 100,000l. a year. These two sums made together 170,000l. But besides this her majesty was allowed for the Windsor establishment 58,000l., and an additional allowance of 1,000l. a year for what was called travelling expenses; and the allowance for the two princesses was 26,000l. making the total of the Windsor establishment amount to no less a sum than 264,000l. per annum [Hear, hear!] if the noble lord had meant to say, that her majesty and her two daughters, together with the king, could not be maintained on less than this sum, he was ready to debate the matter any day that he had to spare. This much he had thought it necessary to state, to meet the broad assertion, that no reduction was possible in the Windsor establishment.

said, that an accurate investigation would show the impossibility of any reduction in the Windsor establishment. With respect to the privy purse, it was well known that a great part of it was devoted to benevolent purposes. With respect to the 100,000l. to her majesty he did not see how that sum could enter into any computation of the Windsor establishment. The House would bear in mind, that her majesty, by act of parliament, was entitled to the full sum of 100,000l. as her jointure. To this sum she would be entitled wherever she lived, and it could not therefore be said to form any part of the Windsor establishment. If they deducted that sum and the privy parse from the establishment, there remained, for all the expenses of the Windsor establishment, only 58,000l.; and they would recollect, whether the queen lived at Windsor or not, the Windsor establishment must be kept up. The 100,000l. was applicable to the queen's own establishment. It was a great error to suppose that the Windsor establishment furnished any part of the queen's household.

said, he had stated, on rumour, the debts of the duke of Clarence to amount to 40 or 50,000l. It was now said, that the whole claims against the duke of Clarence might be liquidated for 5,000l. a year. The question was not, whether they would grant such a sum as might be necessary to the duke of Clarence, but whether having granted him such a sum, they would grant him another 5,000l. a year for that part of it, the fee of which he had already consumed.

said, that his objection, to any grant had not been obviated by any thing that had fallen from the other side, and he therefore felt himself called on to record that objection, and to move that the chairman of the committee do now leave the chair. There was not in the three kingdoms a warmer friend to the house of Brunswick than himself; he was bred up in the principles that placed that family on the throne, and he should be wanting in his duty if he did not support that family; but when he looked at the burthened state of the country, and the distress which was spreading over the face of the country, he could not consent to burthen the people with another shilling for additional allowances to the younger branches of the royal family. If the Windsor establishment was excessive, the abuses ought to be done away with at once. But he did not see how they could take that establishment into their consideration at present. Because a great part of the Windsor establishment was unnecessary, that was no reason why more than was necessary ought to be given to others. A monstrous charge ought not to be borne—but that had nothing to do with the present question. The question was, should they burthen the country with 6,000l. a year, because the duke of Clarence wished to marry? because he had extravagantly thrown away that which parliament had already granted him, were they to make good the effects of that extravagance? This was not surely what the people expected from them. Ill would they be discharging their duty to their constituents, if they did not resist in the commencement this attempt to impose fresh burthens on the people [Hear, hear!].

said, that if the original proposition had been adopted, it would have gone farther to shake the attachment of the country to the royal family than any proposition ever submitted to parliament. He would shortly state the grounds why he was still disposed to agree with the amendment of the member for Surrey. He could not accede to the opinion that the junior members of the royal family, having already received a settlement in their unmarried state, were entitled to call upon the public for an additional grant on their marriage. He thought that the argument on which the larger grant to the duke of Clarence was founded, namely, his relative situation in the royal family, was, in fact, destructive of the proposition that the younger branches should also be amply provided for with additional funds. For what was the analogy of private life? was it usual, when the eldest son was settled in marriage with a large fortune, and a corresponding establishment, to increase also the incomes and establishments of the younger branches in the same proportion? was not the very contrary the customary mode of proceeding? He should give his vote in favour of the 6,000l. which, in a former instance, was considered a sufficient income. In the event of an increase of family, it would be for parliament to consider the circumstances of the case, and to grant an increase if they thought proper. On the occasion of the marriage of the duke of York 40,000l. had been voted; but then it was to be considered that the marriage was peculiarly desirable, on account of the alliance with Prussia, the treaty of which was referred to the committee; and besides, the duchess of York brought with her a large dowry, he believed 160,000 crowns. With respect to the Windsor establishment, it appeared to be a question simply worthy of the consideration of parliament, but not that night. Whatever reduction could be made in that establishment, the House were equally bound to make, although the present question had never come before them. Upon the whole, he was decidedly of opinion that the minor sum was for the present sufficient.

did not press his amendment; and the committee divided on the amendment proposed by Mr. Holme Sumner for reducing the allowance of the duke of Clarence from 10,000l. to 6,000l. a year:

The result was received with loud shouts of approbation; amidst which, lord Castlereagh rose and observed, that since the House had thought proper to refuse the larger sum to the duke of Clarence, he believed he might say that the negotiation for the marriage might be considered at an end. The House then resumed, and the resolution was ordered to be reported to-morrow.