presented a petition from Thomas Ferguson, at present a prisoner in Newgate, whose case had of late been the subject of so much discussion in parliament, expressing deep contrition for his offence, and hoping the House would, in consideration of the confinement he had suffered, and the expenses he had been put to, see cause to order his liberation. The noble lord stated, that in bringing this case forward he had been actuated by no personal feeling of hostility to Thomas Ferguson, but merely by a wish to discharge the duty he owed to the freeholders of the county which he had the honour to represent. To-morrow he should move for the discharge of Thomas Ferguson.

said, he thought that the game laws, as they at present existed, operated against their professed object. It was not possible, under these laws, to preserve game by any other means than those which threw upon gentlemen a certain degree of odium. When he looked at their general spirit and provisions, he could not see any proper principle of justice throughout them. The present bill, he conceived, would not reach its object. It could not be made to attach sufficiently on the higher classes so as to prevent them from becoming the purchasers of game yet it might tend to swell the catalogue of offenders of a lower description, of whom it had appeared that no less than 1,200 had been in confinement under the present laws in the course of last year. When he considered the unjust and oppressive nature of these laws, he must oppose whatever went to extend the principle of them; and viewing the present bill in that light, he should move that it be read a second time this day six months.

observed, that he had always thought it the best plan to legalise the sale of game, and not to throw impediments in the way, by partial alterations; therefore he must oppose this bill. He conceived that the best mode was to make game at once private property. Let it be considered who were at present entitled to the use of this luxury legally. None but persons of 100l. per annum of landed property. A man might have this from a brickfield, or any valuable bit of land; but if another man had 100,000l. in the funds, he was not entitled to a single head of game thereby. The laws on this subject, he must contend, were at present exceedingly inconsistent, and he hoped the House would let the matter stand over till the next session, when a committee might be appointed to consider the whole question, and see what was necessary to be expunged or enacted.

observed, that the hon. member who spoke last, as he had brought in a bill to legalise the sale of game, to be consistent with himself, ought to support the present measure. He certainly did think that the present bill would be a great improvement on the existing system. He could not see how, when the House refused to make it legal to sell game, they could hesitate to punish the buying of game. It would be strange, when it was not legal to sell game, that it should be legal to buy game. What would be said if they were to punish persons guilty of theft, and yet declare the receivers of stolen goods to be perfectly innocent? If no persons bought game, no persons would sell game. How could gentlemen reconcile to themselves the allowing the purchase of game, by which persons of low rank must be infallibly allured to become poachers, and then punish those persons whom they so allured with the utmost severity? By the present system, the lower orders were seduced to a course of life, for which they were exposed to most severe punishments. But this was not the only mischief to the lower orders: by becoming poachers, they brought on themselves the far greater mischief of becoming thieves, by associating in prisons with persons of the most infamous character; for it was established by evidence, that in nearly all the prisons there was no means of preventing the comparatively innocent from associating with the most hardened criminals. But, he need not confine himself to the case of poachers, as he might advert to the situation of poulterers whom gentlemen compelled to procure and sell them game, or else refused to deal with them. Under the system of the game laws, it was not considered any violation of honour or morality to buy the game; and as to the procurer and sellers, their punishment was felt not as a disgrace, but excited sympathy among the people at large. Among the higher orders the laws were violated with little compunction, to obtain the desired luxury, though the utmost rigour in imposing penalties was exercised against the lower.

said, he wanted to get rid of the system altogether, and not to prop it up by inferior measures.

thought the subject of considerable importance, both as it related to the amusements which induced gentlemen to live in the country, and as it concerned the morals and improvement of the most important class of the community. There certainly was great inconsistency in making it penal to sell, and not to buy: but this only showed the difficulty and absurdity of the whole system, which rendered a full consideration of it desirable, and he trusted that the hon. member for Hertfordshire would bring the whole subject forward. There was a great evil under the system in the tempting and compelling of tradesmen by their customers to a daily habitual violation of the laws. The tradesmen, in their turn, were compelled to tempt the peasantry, on whom the penalties were not light matters. The violations of law produced by the system were proofs of its absurdity.

was of opinion the bill ought to pass; though, if he thought it would have the effect of bolstering up the existing system, he would not vote for it. He believed the result would be directly the reverse of what was anticipated, and therefore the bill had his support.

, in reply, said, that the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, had put the question on the right footing. Be the inconvenience what it might, they ought to make the higher orders feel it as well as the lower. He did not wish to stand up as the advocate of the game laws, but while those laws were suffered to exist, any glaring anomaly ought to be removed.

The question being put, "That the bill be now read a second time," the House divided:

said, that in moving the order of the day for the House resolving itself into a committee of the whole House on the Education of the Poor Bill, he wished to offer a few words on the subject. In consequence of the discussion which had already taken place, and the general outline which he had given of the object of the inquiry, as well as of the nature of the abuse which had already come to the knowledge of the committee, by which the attention of the country had been excited, much information had been communicated to them. It would be difficult for him to give the House an idea of the vast mass of information which had since been incessantly poured into the committee. It seemed as if a new light had broken in on the country; for, from places where no abuses were even suspected to exist, most important communications and disclosures had been received. The committee had received multitudes of letters; some from persons who were named trustees of charities; some from persons who had had a right to claim under a charity, without knowing of their right; some from persons who were in the neighbourhood of property belonging to charities, without being aware of any abuse in their neighbourhood. The committee in the last ten days had been occupied in classifying the returns, and in the course of this labour they had discovered instances of abuse more flagrant than any he had hitherto stated to the House. In the returns, there were some ominous omissions. In general, the reverend persons to whom the inquiries had been directed, had answered with a zeal and alacrity which would induce him to heighten rather than detract from, the panegyric which he had formerly bestowed on them. But from some places no returns had been made; and some of those places were those, in which, from other sources, the committee had derived undoubted information that there existed instances of glaring abuse. On those instances the eyes of the committee were fixed, though for three weeks the reverend gentlemen had not thought fit to make returns of the abuses which they must have known to have existed. He should be glad that this way the information should reach them—that the cases which they had withheld had not escaped the vigilance of the committee—and that from whatever motive they had been guilty of this omission, whether from an indisposition to reveal the faults of a neighbour or from the more corrupt and unworthy desire of paying court to the patron to whom they owed preferment, or from whatever other more or less venal cause, if they continued to defy the orders of the House, the only consequence would be, that the indignation of the committee, instead of the abuses themselves, would be fixed upon those who had attempted to conceal them. He should say no more upon the subject, he hoped he should not be obliged to recur to it. He had in his eye two or three of the grossest cases that could be imagined. Several gentlemen of the committee were then present in the House, and to them he would appeal if ever such glaring instances of malversation had transpired before. He should state some instances of abuse which had been discovered, since he had made the former statement. He did so, not merely to gratify curiosity, but to impress upon the House the necessity, if the present Bill should pass, of following it up with whatever measures might be requisite to make it effectual. There was a free grammar school in Hertfordshire, attached to which were some scholarships of 14l. a year, in the university of Cambridge; in the last SO years there had been no scholars but one. An hon. friend of his wished him to name the places—he had hitherto abstained from doing so, and he should persevere in that course until the whole evidence was brought forward, and the persons who were implicated might know who were their accusers. In the county of Essex, there was a farm of about 200 acres of excellent land left in 1584 for the establishment of a school—there was now no school. In Devonshire, there was a fund of 170l. a year for the support of a school—there were now two or three scholars. Now it was well known that according to the Bell and Lancaster system 1,500 scholars might be educated for that sum. In Dorsetshire, there was a house and garden for a school-master, and an estate of 2 or 300l. a year to maintain a school, but no school was kept. In Devon, there was an estate which had produced 1,000l. a year, and which now was let for 650l. bequeathed for the support of a school—the trustees were a corporation; but that worshipful body allowed 4l. only for the purposes of the trust. In some counties there were schools and hospitals in trust of the heirs of a noble person; the trustees had turned over the business of the trust to their steward—the steward to an under agent—the agent to a respectable officer—more nearly, he should have thought, connected with the subject on which the House had just decided—to the gamekeeper. This charity had scholarships in one of the colleges of Cambridge which had not been filled up for more than 100 years, the gamekeepers not having presented thereto. In Leicestershire, there was an estate of 100l. a year, which had been bequeathed for charitable purposes, which was now actually offered for sale. The trustees had paid 20l. a year for the purposes of the trust, and had been in the habit of pocketing the remainder. At a town in the county of Nottingham there was a school, the funds of which, to use the words of a reverend informant, had been "sold or alienated in a shameful way." From a respectable solicitor of the same place information had been derived respecting, it was believed the same estates, that they had been leased at a peppercorn rent for 999 years! In Worcestershire there was one of king Edward's schools, where the master had 150l. a year, with a house and garden, the second master 90l. with a house and garden also—there were no scholars! The rents of the estates attached to this school would educate 3 or 4,000 scholars, probably all the poor in the city of Worcester. There were many other cases which would seem like repetitions of the same circumstances. There were some other abuses so much more enormous than any thing which he had detailed, that in the present stage of the business he dreaded even to mention them. It was enough to hint, that estates of thousands a year left for charitable purposes, were enjoyed by persons to whom they had been granted on leases almost as long as that which he had mentioned in Nottinghamshire, at a rent of 3l. 4l. or 5l. That these leases had been granted by the persons themselves, who now enjoyed them, or by tools who had been gotten into the trusts for the express purpose of consummating these abuses. In consequence of the instances which had been brought to light, he was confident the House would pass the present bill—that it would do its endeavour, at least, to make it effectual—that it would; neither clog it with more exceptions, or with additional restrictions on the powers of the commissioners. If farther restrictions were proposed in another place, let those who were interested in proposing them have the glory and the responsibility, but the House would feel it necessary to grant powers as ample as those which it most beneficially exercised.—He should say a word or two as to the appointment of the commissioners. It had been at first intended to appoint them in the bill. This did not appear to him so indispensable as it did to some of his; friends. They were now to be nominated; by the Crown, and he implored the right hon. gentleman opposite to consider, that whatever the provisions of the bill, however ample and appropriate the powers which were granted to the commission, after all, its success mainly depended on the personal qualities of the commissioners. In this case, at least, he hoped every thing like party feeling, or a spirit of patronage or jobbing the appointments, to use a common but expressive word, would be given up. Some of the commissioners; were to receive no salaries, and no man could think higher than he did of some of the gentlemen whom he had beard would be named on the commission. As nothing but the labour could reward such an appointment, and no motive could engage any one to accept of it but a desire to see the matter conscientiously and steadily proceeded in, he thus publicly, without farther ceremony, on the terms he had mentioned (for no other could be thought of), begged to offer his own services as one of the commissioners. He had consulted his brother members of the committee, who had thought it fair that he should make this offer, from the part he had had in this business already, and from the interest which he took in the complete success of the measure. He offered only his time and his labour, and if he should have the good fortune to see this offer accepted, it would afford him the most heartfelt satisfaction. It was not for him to say whether or not members of that House should be admitted to be members of the commission; but he begged to add, that if that to which he aspired were held to be incompatible with a seat in that House, he should wish to have the refusal of it even in that case; for, as he believed from the bottom of his heart, the inquiry to be one of the most important in which that House and the legislature had ever been engaged, as he was at present advised, he did not know that he should think it too great a sacrifice to withdraw himself for a while from other duties, for that security which he knew his presence on the commission would give those who were anxious for the success of the inquiry, that the object in view should be unceasingly pursued to its accomplishment. In conclusion, he trusted the House would give its assent to the Bill, and act in such a manner that, if it should be negatived in another place, which God forbid, they might be prepared with some other measure in furtherance of their common object. There were none of the wrongdoers in the House whose conduct it would be one object of the commission to bring into view. From any member in that House, therefore he did not anticipate any strong objection to the bill. From the venerable heads of the church in the other House, he trusted the bill would meet with a warm support. As the pastors of the Christian religion in this country, he could not think that they would thwart a measure which had for its object the support of that religion, by more fully imparting the benefits of education to its members.

The Bill then passed through the Committee.

said, he was aware of the difficulty of fixing the attention of the House once more on this measure, and this made him regret the more that the subject had not been previously referred to the consideration of a committee above stairs. Nothing was now, however, left to the House but to amend the bill as best they might, for in little more than one month the Bank must resume cash payments should the bill not pass. No one was desirous of so sudden a resumption; but at the same time it was desirable that some security should be afforded, that the House should not in the month of May next year, be again occupied in passing just such another bill. Some declaration ought to be introduced into the preamble to fix a period to a system which at present appeared interminable. Than this interminable prospect he should prefer even a sudden and unprepared-for resumption. But he rose to propose an amendment which would steer between those two evils, to the effect of engaging the Bank to resume cash payments at a definite period. The House were solemnly called upon to put an end, while it was in their power to do so, to the present dangerous and vicious system. The bill ought therefore to contain, not a special enactment but a distinct expression of expectation that cash payments would not be again postponed. The preamble should comprehend a direct declaration that the restriction was continued, in order that the Bank might be enabled to reduce its issues, so as to resume cash payments at the time fixed by the bill. Two years ago the restriction had been extended for two years, "in order to afford the Bank time to make the necessary preparations for the resumption of cash payments." Now we were as far from that object as then. He presumed that no one would object to his proposed amendment from any attachment to the present preamble. The present preamble only stated, that unforeseen circumstances had arisen which rendered it expedient to continue the restrictions. As those circumstances, although they might not have been foreseen, must have been seen now that they had occurred, it was strange that they had not been described. Although he had closely attended all the discussions on the bill, he could not state what those circumstances were. The right hon. gentleman on a former night, had indeed mentioned four arguments as justificatory of the bill. The first was, the expense of the army in France, the second the bad harvest, the third the expenditure of English travellers abroad, and the fourth the loans to France. As to the first argument, that had completely broken down, for the expense of the army of occupa- tion was defrayed by France. The bad harvest, which was the second argument, might again occur, and might be made a perpetual reason for restriction. With respect to the third argument, the expense of travellers, whatever was its amount it had at least not been unforeseen, for two years ago it had been predicted as a very probable pretext for such a measure as the present. The loans to be negociated for France afforded therefore the only ground on which the measure rested; and although there might be something in this argument, it had been most extravagantly overcharged. Many things must be taken for granted by those who used it. In the first place it must be taken for granted, that a great part of those loans would be negotiated in this country; which was by no means ascertained. In the next place that it would be transmitted in gold; which was also doubtful. The exchanges were nearly at par, while gold was at 4l. 2s. 6d. an ounce. It would therefore be obviously impolitic to export gold which was more valuable here than abroad, while bills of exchange might be procured at par. He could not conceive on what ground it was calculated, that our metallic currency would be materially affected by any change that might take place in our system. France, it was known, had undergone every variation of circumstance that could visit a nation in war or peace, in her trade or commerce and yet its metallic currency continued the same. Why then should it be argued, that the resumption of cash payments by the Bank was likely to produce such a; change as some gentlemen professed to apprehend? A large subduction of bullion from this country in consequence of the loans to France and Prussia, was stated as a reason against the expediency of removing the restriction upon the Bank, lest bullion should rise in price. But it was notorious, that we had witnessed of late, a large subduction of gold from the continent, for the purpose of supplying the coffers of the Bank, and yet that subduction did not enhance the price of gold among the continental nations. Why then should any subduction, likely to arise in consequence of the loans alluded to, be supposed to be calculated to produce any enhancement of the price of gold in this country? It probably would be the immediate effect of the resumption of cash payments, that a rise would take place in the price of gold, and that the exchange would fall in consequence of the enhancement of the gold. Some of the coin would be melted down, but then the coin which was not melted would remain the same, and the prices of goods would speedily fall. No other effect would follow, and thus things would come round to their natural course. He was astonished to find gentlemen so much frightened at the bugbear, that loans to France or to any other country would serve to withdraw our bullion, and that through that fear they should be reconciled to a system which gave the Bank the power of influencing the distribution of all the property in the country. It was incumbent on the House to enter on a different system of policy. Not that he meant to depreciate the difficulties that existed, or to deny the facts that had been stated, but because those difficulties could never be removed by attributing them to erroneous causes. The fact was, and it had been stated ten thousand times in that House, although it was not the less true or important on that account, that the rise in the price of gold and the fall of the exchange were solely to be attributed to the enormous issue of Bank paper, and nothing could serve to remedy the evil but our restoration to a sound state of currency. This indeed even the chancellor of the exchequer and many who held the same opinions could not venture to deny, although they seemed unwilling distinctly to admit it. That the great issue of Bank notes produced an enhancement in the price of all articles he need not attempt to prove, and gold must of course bear its due share in that enhancement. That the fall of exchange was also the effect of the same cause was equally evident. For what was meant by the par of exchange was amply this, that an equal quantity of the precious metals in the currency of one country was of the same value as an equal quantity in that of another: that was, that 24 francs in France were equivalent to 20 shillings in England. But when our one pound note was not equivalent to the sum which it professed to represent, the rate of exchange was of course against us. The computed exchange might depend on the number and amount of commercial transactions, but the real exchange could be affected only by a variation in the price of gold and silver. The system upon which the Bank now acted mustinevitably lead to the continuance of the restriction from time to time; for the maintenance of their issues at their present amount would never allow the act to expire. The Bank then had the power of rendering the restriction still longer necessary, and they avowed opinions which indicated the probability of their exercising that power. In speaking of the power of the Bank he did not mean to accuse that body of any improper motive or conduct, but he felt convinced from the nature of that power that the Bank would be as little prepared for resuming cash payments this day twelvemonth as at present if parliament did not take some measures to provide otherwise. He could not help looking forward to a great increase of circulating paper, and the country banks by their renewed issues would greatly assist in depreciating it. In alluding to those Banks he deprecated any parliamentary interference with them; for he was fully sensible of the advantage which the public had derived from them in supplying a cheap medium of circulation, and in spreading that active capital throughout the country which would have been otherwise confined to London. Their number, by exciting competition, and by necessarily contracting the transactions of each bank had lessened the profits of their business, and had materially diminished the risk of individuals. What evil there was belonging to the system of country banks was not to be cured by the issue of stock notes as proposed by the chancellor of the exchequer. It arose from the law which permitted them to issue small notes instead of confining their issues to notes of higher value, and from limiting the number of partners in every firm for the purpose of supporting the charter of the Bank of England. With regard to the benefits derived during the war from the Bank of England by the country, he thought they had been greatly overrated, while an attempt was made to shut the eyes of the country to all the evils of our paper transactions. Let the House consider the burthen under which we were now labouring in peace; let them reflect on the evils and miseries which the fluctuations in the value of the currency had occasioned, let them contemplate those high prices which had rendered the expenditure of the war so disproportionate and enormous in consequence of the depreciation of paper, and which depreciation was notoriously the effect of an enormous issue of notes. If due preparation were not made in proper time the resumption must be subject to additional difficulty as we proceeded, and the difficulty must be faced at some time or other. When was it probable that a better opportunity would occur than at the present moment? The price of stocks would not he thought be affected by the resumption of cash payments. It was an error to say that trade was benefited by the increased issue of Bank of England paper, for that issue was of late chiefly for the purchase of exchequer bills and bullion. The rate of discount at the Bank was in fact too high to be really beneficial to trade. But it was known that discounts were to be had in the money market on such easy terms of late years that persons of small capital had been tempted into rash adventures and hazardous speculations which proved extremely injurious to the country. One argument frequently urged by the Bank Directors, was, that parliament ought not to interfere with the affairs of the Bank, and in this opinion he entirely concurred. But the bill before the House was a most lamentable and fatal interference with them. Parliament had enacted the restriction, and that restriction rendered farther interference absolutely necessary. Let the restriction be removed, and he was one of those who would never desire to know any thing of the affairs of the Bank; but while that restriction continued, it was the duty of the House to inquire into the conduct of that establishment. The restriction gave the Bank a power over the distribution of all the property in the kingdom. They might, if they should think proper, discount bills payable at three years, as well as bills payable at two months, and thus throw into circulation a quantity of paper that would never return to them. While the Bank possessed a discretion of this kind, parliament must necessarily interfere in their concerns, or abandon altogether the most important interests of the country. The sort of interference which he would recommend should be gentle, gradual, but conclusive by fixing a period at which the Bank should resume their cash payments, but at such a distance of time as would enable them to be fully prepared for it by a previous reduction of their issues. The first step in this measure ought to be, in his opinion, to make a large reduction of the one pound notes. The reduction of the small notes appeared to him to be more desirable than that of notes of a higher denomination, both because the former would be supplied by a metallic currency, and because they were the principal cause of the vast and deplorable increase in the crime of forgery. He was one of those who thought it a chimerical speculation to endeavour to remove that great evil by any other measure, for he could not conceive that any refinement in the art of engraving the notes would be an effectual guard against it. There was one other consideration of a general nature which appeared to him to deserve attention, and it was, the opinion which the continuance of this system must inculcate in Europe, with regard to our financial resources. The restoration of cash payments was, in his view, particularly necessary in order to maintain our character and consequence on the continent. For while our present state of currency continued, we must be regarded by the continent as helpless and exhausted; for it was impossible to suppose that any nation able to relieve itself from its difficulties would remain in such an unsound state. There was a courage of peace as well as a courage of war; and he did not believe that at any period could the difficulty be encountered with less risk than at present. If we could not help ourselves out of such a condition in peace, that ability could not be expected to arise in war. What an impression then were our circumstances likely to make upon continental nations! However, assured of the pacific disposition of those nations, we had done that to some of them which they must be anxious to avenge; and what a prospect did our financial condition present to encourage the calculation of hostile minds! It was in vain to hope that the next year would be more favourable than this for entering on the subject; and it was for these reasons that he was anxious to call upon the House to adopt the amendment with which he intended to conclude, namely, to leave out all the words in the preamble from "whereas," in order to add the words,

"It is expedient that the provisions of the said act should be farther continued, in order to afford the directors of the Bank the opportunity of making such gradual reduction of the amount of their notes in circulation as may be necessary, in, order to enable them, with safety to the Bank and to the public, to resume Cash Payments, at the earliest period, and that another time should be fixed at which the said restrictions should cease,"

opposed the amendment.

It was not from want of a due sense of the ingenuity and ability with which the hon. member had treated the subject, that he would decline following him through all his arguments.—The preamble, by declaring that "unforeseen circumstances" had rendered it expedient that the restriction should continue, contained the only motive which at present could induce him to support the bill. The amendment, if introduced, would assign a reason upon which his assent was not founded. He was neither blind to the inconveniencies, nor enamoured of the facilities arising from a restriction of cash payments. He still retained all the opinions which, upon former occasions, he had expressed upon the subject, and no man who did him the honour to recollect those opinions could doubt of his anxiety to return to a sound and wholesome state of currency. He had also, always held the opinion that it would not be fit or politic, in his mind, to allow any interference with the practical details of the Bank. While he had exerted himself on the occasion of the former discussions to discountenance the false reasoning and false principles upon which the restriction on the Bank was defended, he had at the same time declared his dissent from those who were desirous that parliament should interfere in any other way with cash payments, than by merely determining the period at which the restrictions should cease. He still retained all those opinions, and still looked forward anxiously to the time when the restriction might cease, consistently with the public interest. The practical part of the question had been ably argued by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lewis). No person could deny that the Bank were bound to provide for the resumption of their payments. They had actually done so. But if the proposed amendment were adopted, the preamble to the bill would appear to assume that there was an incapacity on the part of the Bank to meet the determination of parliament as to the period of resumption, whereas the delay which the bill went to enact, arose from extraneous circumstances which no prudence could foresee. A loan of unexampled magnitude was contracted for by a neighbouring nation. From obvious probabilities and notorious facts, it appeared that a great proportion of it must go from this country. It was asked why loans should tend to impoverish this country, without producing the same effect on France. The circumstances were quite different. The great accumulation of capital here induced the possessors to speculate in foreign loans with a view of converting their money to greater advantage. France had no such capital, and therefore could not embark in those speculations. However desirable the opening of the Bank might be, every person must believe, that at any period, it would be attended with practical difficulties. It was the duty of the Bank to guard against them, but it was not the business of parliament to prescribe what should be done with a view to such an object. They had only to prescribe the time of resumption, not the means which the Bank ought to adopt for the purposes of rendering it more easy. No indisposition to get rid of the restriction could be imputed to them, and every thing which had passed in the present session upon the subject, would only operate as a stimulus for future preparation, and render the resumption of cash payments rather an object of desire than of apprehension to the Bank. The hon. gentleman expressed his apprehension, that circumstances of a novel kind, like the present, might arise, to occasion a farther delay. He (Mr. Canning) saw no probability of any such event. It could not be denied, that the resumption of cash payments was a most desirable event. The country could never be considered as having completely righted itself until the currency was restored to its natural and regular course. [Hear, hear!]—Nothing at present could possibly prevent it but the existence of extraneous and unexpected circumstances, unexampled in their magnitude, and in their possible results. It was no shame to any person not to have foreseen them, however great might be his political sagacity. There was no probability that they would arise again before the lapse of twelve months. He anticipated no such event, and he only voted for the present bill, from a complete, though unwilling conviction of its temporary necessity.

observed, that the right hon. gentleman had justified this measure on the necessity set forth in the original preamble, and had opposed the amendment, on the ground that it would recognize an undue interference in the details of the Bank concerns. But he had not ventured to answer that part of his hon. friend's speech, which asserted that the Statute book did not contain such a preamble as this, "that unforeseen circumstances" justified the measure: he had simply confined himself to stating that the ground of the continuance of the restriction act was the loan in France. Why not at once, if the government were confident in this opinion, set forth what they thought the true reason in the preamble of the Bill? The people of England ought at least to have this reason on the face of the record. The right hon. gentleman, indeed, thought that the Bank had gold enough in its coffers; but this was not enough, for if their issues remained unlimited, as they now stood, their paper must suffer that eventual depreciation which would render it impossible for them to resume cash payments with the facility by some supposed. This he knew was chiefly owing to the accommodation afforded by the Bank to government. As to a foreign loan, he was at a loss, after the fullest consideration, to understand how far a French loan could have a tendency to alter the whole metallic circulation of this country; because, the very consequence of this remittance of specie must increase the price of the commodity in this country in the same proportion that it became depreciated in France, from the surplus in the market. It must, therefore, find a fair level, just as the rates of exchange did in mercantile exports and imports. In the year 1797, let the House recollect, that there were only 150,000l. in specie sent out of the country in the Austrian and Prussian subsidies—the rest was transmitted in bills of exchange, except a small quantity of dollars. Now in the present loan, surely nobody believed that the whole had been contracted for in England. When he recollected that the advances to government led to the Bank stoppage in 1797, and when he saw that the chancellor of the exchequer founded his system of finance on farther advances from the Bank on exchequer bills in the present year, he could not help thinking that the cause still continued, and would continue to operate to prevent the resumption of cash payments, just so long as this system between the Bank and the government was suffered to continue in full and active operation. This had led to the original stoppage, and it now continued it. So convinced was he of the necessity of bringing this matter to a decisive issue with the Bank, and of fixing some definite period for replacing the metallic currency of the country on the footing upon which it formerly stood, that he would now conclude by giving notice of his intention, in a future stage of the bill, to move that the restriction do continue no longer than six weeks after the next meeting of parliament.

, jun. opposed the amendment. He would support the preamble as it stood, because unforeseen circumstances alone, as the preamble expressed it, were the ground upon which the restriction was proposed to be continued. It was not denied on either side of the House, that the resumption of cash payments, even without the existence of a foreign loan, would be attended with no small difficulties. It could not but occasion a run upon the Bank, and a decrease of circulating medium. These evils would, no doubt, be considerably increased by a loan of so unprecedented an amount as that contracted for by France. A recurrence to cash payments was most desirable in peace, but still it should be remembered that it was the restriction which had enabled them to carry on the war to a triumphant close, and to guard against those fluctuations of currency which must have produced the most ruinous effects. Still he did not wish it to be permanent. Its excellency depended entirely upon being temporary.

rose and said:—I am aware. Sir, that, in offering myself to your attention in a discussion like this—after the speeches of so many gentlemen of the highest name and authority—I am accusable of no small temerity; but having given to the subject the most sedulous consideration I have been able to bring to it; and having been in a position for somewhat more than twenty years, which necessarily brought under my view the details of the system on which the currency of the county has been carried on during that period, I am anxious to be allowed to trespass for a few minutes on the patience of the House.

Sir, I think it must be granted, that the preamble of the chancellor of the exchequer is at least innocent. The amendment of the hon. gentleman, I conceive to have a tendency to be hurtful, and I shall vote against that amendment.

Sir, I will state boldly, without fear of contradiction, that this is not a question concerning the interests of the Bank; but one concerning solely, and involving most deeply, the interests of the community. Gentlemen have gone into many, and into intricate, details;—into these I shall not follow them.—The main bearing of the whole matter, I do firmly believe, lies palpably on the surface.

It is very commonly rumoured, that the Bank possess in their coffers, either fourteen millions or sixteen millions in gold. The government owes them twelve millions; and, this paid, the Bank can pay off every note they have issued;—and where is their necessity ever to issue another? But, in such case, where are the community? The Bank can, out of the accumulation of its capital, furnish forth its treasure.—Is it the same with the country?

I confess I consider it fortunate, that the Bank did not resume its cash-payments in 1816; and I am even inclined to consider it fortunate, that it does not resume them now; as I lean most strongly to the opinion, that, before the Bank can ever pay in specie, with safety to the state, the government must rectify what appears to me to have been no small error; namely, the adoption of the principles of Mr. Locke—under circumstances which they did not apply—in the late coinage.

Sir, gentlemen have talked much, and have, as I think, talked wildly, of the power of the Bank of England, and even of the power of the private bankers, of enlarging their issues to any extent—of the consequent depreciation of the paper currency as valued against gold—and in this their interested career, of the urgent necessity of curbing them. Sir, the Bank of England has never brought such powers into action, and the private bankers have never possessed them.

The pound of account of 1818, is not the pound of account of the days of Mr. Locke; but it is not the Bank of England which has altered it. But to the pound of account of the times existing, you must adjust your coinage. It is upon that pound all outstanding contract was calculated or, on reverting to payments in specie after so long a cessation, your embarrassment will be, I fear, unbounded. If, on either side, the scale of justice must incline, the creditor can receive, as he has received, gradually, somewhat less than has been his due. The debtor cannot suddenly be made to pay him more, because he has it not.

Sir, the work of Mr. Locke was written in the year 1695, when the national debt was under twenty millions. Consequently, the bearing of it on the currency was only the amount of its interest, say under a million.—It hardly yet entered into the computation as holding any great influence on the rise of prices.

Let us now look at the financial history of the country during the last twenty-four years. In 1796, Paine wrote his Decline and Fall of the English System of Finance. He wrote as an enemy; but his inductions are, many of them, indisputable—if you concede to him the grand fallacy on which they all rest; namely, that the pound of account is of unvarying value,—and that the pound payable to the national creditor in 1796 was to remain, as to its efficacy, the pound for ever. Since the days of Mr. Locke, the debt had changed from a debt, properly so called, to the understanding of a perpetual annuity. Paine states its amount in nominal capital to be approaching to 400 millions, and argues, that the extent of its yearly interest could not much longer be borne, as marching in an accelerating ratio of constant increase—The funds at that time standing at 59.

In 1797, this feeling began to prevail universally—the funds fell to 48. Mr. Pitt put it to the patriotism of the country, and vainly attempted his loyalty loan. All who had demands for gold, rushed for gold to hoard it. The Bank stopped under the shelter of an order from the privy council; and the golden pound hitherto in use departed from the circulation of England — the bank notes issued being then under eleven millions.

In 1798, the funds remained at 48 and 49. The circulation of the Bank was twelve millions; but the country, through the private bankers, had been supplied in most counties with an issue of one pound notes, which replaced the guineas that had disappeared. In Norfolk, with great difficulty, we did keep up a certain circulation of gold, mixed with the one pound notes of the Bank of England. In this year, Mr. Pitt carried his bill for the war assessed taxes, stretchable to the supposed tenth of the income of the payer.

In 1799, finding the old system could go no farther, Mr. Pitt brought in his income tax. The funds rose to 67. Credit began to re-establish itself. I have heard, that at this time Paine himself acknowledged to Barlow, that the bankruptcy he had prophesied was averted from England: and the Bank issues began their sensible rise, going now to thirteen millions and a half.

It was in this year that Mr. Weston wrote those strange letters, so singularly quoted by the chancellor of the exchequer, recommending to Mr. Pitt the adoption of Law's System, exaggerated in the ratio of the comparative amounts of the debts of this country in 1799, and of France under the regent Orleans. Mr. Weston wanted at once to break down fifty millions of the principal of the debt, and to put it in a form to pass as money, utterly forgetting that a circulating medium must circulate; that is, that it must come back upon its issuer to be paid at its par again, and that speedily; or it must necessarily, as Law's did, most speedily sink.

However, with the increase of the debt there was the increase of its interest to pay, which could only be met by increased taxation—increased taxation could only be supplied by increase in the prices of all things; and through the means of these increased prices, a larger amount of representation was rendered necessary; and this necessary amount the Bank did in effect (inasmuch as depended on them), soberly, wisely, and temperately supply. From that day to this, we have found that the amount of Bank notes in circulation has gradually risen in a certain proportion to the increase of the interest paid to the creditor of the state. In these notes his dividends are receivable; but having always been kept by the Bank under the amount of that interest, they have been, of necessity, received back by the government at their par much within the year, for the taxes imposed to meet this payment of interest, so due to the creditor.

It is perfectly obvious, that a paper thus circumstanced can never lose its currency within the community, though it pass for nothing out of it. All things will become dearer, gold not excepted; but the system can go on unimpeded; and, in fact, the government have been in no difficulty in raising loans for the public service since its adoption. During the vast and disproportionate efforts the country was making in the prosecution of the war, all went on smoothly, till, in 1813, farther taxation appearing next to impossible, the chancellor of the exchequer attacked the sinking fund—the last great financial expedient up to the conclusion of the contest.

Sir, at this period the national debt had mounted to more than 800 millions; the interest upon it to upwards of 30 millions; and we find the Bank issues in 1815 were twenty-seven millions. Now, I own, Sir, I am led to suspect that we must always have a paper representation, more or less in the nature of a legal tender bearing some relative proportion to the interest of the debt; that as our commodities will insure us a credit for their absolute value in gold and silver on the market of the world, so we may be able to satisfy our domestic reckonings mixed up with, and swelled in their numerical amounts by the addition of the taxation to the prices of every thing.

Next, as to the question of prices—it is quite idle to suppose that a million or two more or less in the circulation of the Bank;—that a few notes more or less issued providently, or improvidently, by the country bankers—(for if issued improvidently, they would only come back on them the faster) should have effected any very material alteration. No banker ever did, or can, issue any paper, but as mere change for something of a higher value previously lodged with him. No banker can keep out a note an hour which is not wanted for the immediate transfer of the goods on sale in the district around him. If he lends his notes, he probably loses his money; but the notes must come back, if more are issued than are wanted, for immediate repayment. It is to the increase of our debt that we have alone to look, as the cause of the increase of our prices, to the millions on millions of the engagements of the Treasury, and not to the millions of the promises of the Bank.

I now come to the year 1816,—and to that year's experience, I do presume to intreat the attention of the House. In 1813 and 1814 the harvests had been abundant throughout all Europe. The war had ceased, leaving England, I may say, glutted with merchandize,—with abundance of all things. But something in the nature of an epidemic instantly seized the whole nation. The activity of our commerce itself, had been bent and directed to the purposes of war. And, after twenty-four years of warfare—all the bills unpaid—every one seemed to think that they had nothing to do but to dismantle—to sit still and enjoy themselves. But what followed? Managed as best it might be, there must have been a great revulsion; but all seemed to be set on making that revulsion as great as possible. Every establishment, carried to its perfection at whatever expense, was instantly to be got rid of. Our people being out of employ, the army and navy were, as instantly, to be discharged, to increase the number of the destitute.

The property-tax, which, however unequal in some parts of its operation, had been the main support of our finances, was wrenched out of the hands of government;—and the property which had so iniquitously attempted to relieve itself by casting its burthen on those who possessed nothing, sunk in the hands of its owners some 50 per cent in its value. Prices, indeed, became low; but who was benefitted by their fall? Did the landed proprietor receive his rents Could the farmer cultivate his tenancy, and exist by the occupation? Did the manufacturer gain relief from the goods uncalled for, and rotting in his warehouses? And, above all, what was the situation of the poor?—With no natural failure in the country, the poor were every where starving. There was an universal set-fast,—in the higher orders a greater embarrassment, and in the lower, a more intense misery, than had been known in England for centuries. Now, Sir, our exchanges were at par, we had suddenly been brought back to our old golden prices. We tried them; but we could not live.

It has been thrown out, that the monied interests were warped by their own gains to advocate the continuance of the Bank restriction; but I beg the great landed proprietors in this House to revert to that calamitous period, and they will see that the only class who remained uninjured, were the monied capitalists.

I must now come back to the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer. He had lost the property-tax. It was perfectly obvious in the then state of things, that the taxes on articles of consumption must fall off greatly. New impositions were out of the question; and he did, perhaps, the only thing he could do. He did not circulate fifty millions of the old debt; but he made the capital of the new debt—the winding-up of the war expenditure—stand for money. He threw fifty millions of exchequer bills on the money market; and in a year, in which it is clear there could be no increase of real riches—on the contrary, by the end of perhaps the only year, in which the actual consumption of the country had been greater than its actual produce, he had succeeded in making money a drug—and money, in the beginning of 1816, not having been to be borrowed at any interest—by January 1817, he had brought down the rate of interest to 4 per cent. Stocks rose in price—all things rose in price. But in what were they measured? Certainly not in a standard altered by the Bank issues, for they had kept steady; or, indeed, were rather reduced—but by the undisguised and undisguisable issue of the capital of the debt.

Sir, from that time the industry of the country has gradually been bringing it round again. The chancellor of the exchequer has lately been funding some of his exchequer bills. It may be hoped that he may not see it necessary to keep up this forced and unnatural state of things, but allow them to subside, after these violent fluctuations, into their fair channels; for then, and then only, shall we be able to ascertain what the pound of account of England really is, as measured against gold. But do what you will, one thing is certain—Your pound of account is not the pound of account of the days of William 3rd; and, under a debt of 840 millions, you can no more force back your prices to the prices of former times, without ruin to all parties, than you can make the shadow go back upon the dial.

There appears to me to be still one more reason why it would be more convenient to suspend the resumption of specie-payments for another year; namely, that it is not only the finances of this country which have been in a state of great fluctuation and uncertainty during the war, but the monetary systems of almost all the countries of Europe; and until they, as well as we, have become more: settled in the transactions of peace, it would seem to me to be almost impossible to ascertain and adjust our standard.

To recapitulate. It shows the wonderful powers of this country, that, under a debt so enormous, the difference is not greater than it is. Yet I still cannot but conceive it to be demonstrable—

First, that the pound of account of 1818 is not the golden pound of 1695; and that previously to the Bank of England being again opened for the payment of specie, after a cessation of so many years, it will be necessary to re-adjust the coinage to the value of the pound contemplated in the mass of outstanding contract.

Secondly, that any variation in the value of the pound of account from the golden pound circulated previously to 1797, was not primarily occasioned by the Bank's or banker's issues; but by the issues and debts of government; and, consequently, that, supposing neither of the latter to go on increasing, there is no reason to presume that any farther depreciation will take place, by postponing the opening of the Bank for specie payments to another year.

Thirdly, and lastly, that the species of paper which most markedly and directly bears, by its great amount, on the prices of all things, is the issue of the paper of government,—which represents nothing, but the exigencies and deficiencies of the state,—which is not taken up in the receipts of the year's taxation,—but which falls dead on the market;—and with a view to bring the price of gold as near to the level of the pound of account in England as may be, it will be necessary to abridge, as much as shall be possible, the floating debt.

Sir, I have to apologise to the House for the length of statement into which I have insensibly been drawn, and shall conclude by merely repeating, that for the reasons I have before adduced, I shall vote for retaining the preamble of the chancellor of the exchequer, and against the amendment of the hon. gentleman.

was persuaded that every time the restriction was renewed, the probability of its being eventually taken off was diminished. He regretted that the motion made a short time ago for an inquiry into the subject had not been acceded to, and he strongly recommended his right hon. friend the chancellor of the exchequer, early in the next session, to propose the appointment of a committee for that purpose. He did not believe this country would be better able to resume cash-payments next July than at present; and with regard to France, as connected with this interesting point, where was the evidence that her financial operations would be concluded in one year? He confessed that he much doubted the ability of France to raise 32 millions in one year, and, if so, the inability of that nation would certainly be adduced as one reason for deferring for another year a recurrence to specie on our part. As to the amendment now proposed to the preamble of the bill, he regarded it as a matter of such absolute indifference, that if he voted for it, it would only be out of compliment to his hon. friend. He believed the real truth to be, that the Bank were not serious in wishing to resume their payments in cash, and he declared this from no feeling of disrespect to the gentlemen who directed its affairs, for in consulting their own interests, they were acting like all other men. It was impossible for parliament to fix upon this or that July in any year, for legislating the resumption of payments in specie. He could hardly expect to witness the restriction taken off during his life. He must confess, that he viewed the proceedings of the Bank with considerable jealousy; and he was persuaded, that events, foreseen or unforeseen, would, from time to time, happen, which would be urged as the ground for continuing the restriction.

The question being put, "That the words of the Amendment made by the Committee, proposed to be left out, stand part of the question," the House divided:

Mr. J. P. Grant moved, that instead of the words "5th day of July, 1809," these words be inserted, "six weeks after the meeting of the next session of parliament."

suggested, that the best way would be, to propose to negative the original resolution, and after it had been negatived, to introduce the amendment in its place.

said, it must be obvious to the House that so important a measure as that of resuming cash payments could not be allowed to be decided at so early a period as six weeks after the opening of the next session of parliament.

observed, that he should propose the 25th of March next as the proper time for the Bank to resume cash payments. If the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer was in earnest with the country, he would not object to this. But if, on the contrary, he intended to carry on a sort of juggle with the Bank, he should only observe, that the right hon. gentleman did not deal so fairly and so manfully as an hon. member under the gallery (Mr. Gurney) did, when he said openly, that he held the payment of paper in specie as an abominable heresy [A laugh]. He would move, therefore, to leave out "the 5th day of July," in order to substitute "the 25th day of March."

said, he should withdraw his amendment to make room for that of his right hon. friend, which seemed to give such general satisfaction.

, jun. thought such a measure not calculated to receive the support of the House. He would ask the right hon. member if the operation of the foreign loans on this market could be expected to have ceased by the 25th of March next? If such was not the case, then the amendment was a bad one.

The question being put, "That the words of the Amendment made by the Committee, proposed to be left out, stand part thereof," the House divided:

expressed himself hostile to the measure, as contrary to sound policy and good morals. He admitted the financial difficulties of the state, but regarded it as the province of a deliberative assembly like that to overlook miserable expedients, and decide upon broad and liberal principles. If the principle of raising money by lottery was once established, they might, upon the same justification, proceed to raise a revenue from licensing brothels and gaming-houses. The system of lotteries went to increase the patronage of the Crown, to train up a race of informers, to subvert the morals, impair the industry, and, in its remote effects, to injure the revenue of the state. Perhaps those who were so earnest in building the new churches thought by so doing to atone for the mischief they thus created. But it was utterly inconsistent to be anxious about the education of the people, and the improvement of morality on one side, if all that was done was defeated by the lottery on the other. The right hon. gentleman seemed to be raising batteries against his own measures, but it would be more candid and simple to abandon them at once. He must therefore oppose the resolution unless the chancellor of the exchequer could offer something in its favour.

did not consider himself called upon to give additional reasons in favour of a measure in proposing which he had only followed all his predecessors. The hon. gentleman had advanced no new arguments, and as there would always be a certain quantity of gambling, lotteries were not, he conceived, more mischievous than unauthorized play.

thought it inconsistent that the right hon. gentleman should encourage saving, banks with one hand, and gambling habits with the other. For himself, he could not give his consent to a resolution so fraught with injurious consequences to society. The right hon. gentleman had not used one argument, in opposition to the speech of his hon. friend, that ought to induce the House to sanction the Resolution.

stated, that he had a few days since seen in a Dublin newspaper, that one of the sheriffs for that city, a lottery- office keeper, had been convicted of taking illegal lottery insurances, and that six actions of a similar kind were still pending over him. He understood that this man had been convicted of a similar offence in the preceding year, but that notwithstanding this he had been again licensed. He hoped the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer would persist in putting down the abominable system of illegal insurances.

said, that had he heard of such a circumstance occurring in London, he should not have suffered the lottery- office keeper to be again licensed.

observed, that the right hon. gentleman was chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland as well as for England.

observed, that there was a wide distinction between individual acts of immorality, and those which were patronized by the government. If the practice of raising money by lottery was once allowed to be criminal, it could not be defended upon any ground that would not justify other crimes. He condemned the system of lotteries as being conducive to crime, and compared it in practice to that of licensing gambling houses in Paris.

He hoped to see the chancellor of the exchequer convinced of the errors of his present conduct, and put an end to a system which tended to destroy every good principle, every industrious habit, more perhaps than any other circumstance whatever. It had been truly said, that a certain sum of money was obtained by this system in support of the revenue; but who could count the mass of evil thereby produced, or estimate the amount of misery resulting from it? He trusted he should live long enough to see the system put an end to.

contended that the system suspended the law of the land. There were statutes which declared all lotteries public nuisances, and subversive of the common good.

allowed, that if a certain sum of money was to be squandered in the country by gambling, he should prefer to have it squandered in the lottery, whereby a certain revenue would be produced; but he denied that such was the case, and contended, that the existence of a lottery created a spirit of gambling, which would not otherwise be found in operation. It was not as if a certain quantity of bad blood were to be let off from the body by one means in preference to another? but the very act of bleeding created the bad blood, which, but for the operation would not exist. He considered the encouragement of saving-banks with one hand, while on the other, the lottery-office keepers were permitted, by every scheme and mode of deceit, to induce the people to throw away their little savings in the lottery, was a solecism in legislature. It was urging the honest man to spend his little savings in mischievous and ruinous adventure; and it could not be denied that this was urged by every species of mountebankry, or mountebankism, if he might use the word, that a vicious ingenuity could devise.

begged leave to add to what had already been urged on the subject, that no country in the world was less actuated by a gambling spirit than England; but in consequence of the existence of a lottery, persons of every class were induced to hazard their money, and even where individuals were not able to purchase sixteenths, little societies had been formed in many parts of the country to share the expenses.

The Committee divided: