House of Commons
Friday, May 22, 1818
Duties on Rock Salt
rose, pursuant to notice, to move, that the House do resolve itself into a committee on the Rock Salt duties, with a view to the reduction of them on that used for agricultural purposes. The usefulness of such reduction had been admitted on all sides in the committee, and it was, therefore, unnecessary for him to enlarge on that part of the subject. The committee had been of opinion, that a measure for that specific purpose might be obtained in the present session, though they apprehended that other objects more complicated, must lie over till another. It was the opinion of the committee, that he should propose that the duty on Rock Salt, used for agricultural purposes, should be reduced to 5l. per ton. It had been reduced to 10l. last session, but the committee recommended that farther reduction which would render the article accessible to every holder of land desirous of trying it. The hon. gentleman then moved, "That the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to take into consideration the Act 57 George 3rd as far as relates to the Duties on Rock Salt."
said, he would not oppose going into the committee, as every encouragement ought to be given to persons desirous of experiments in agriculture.
The House then went into the committee, and a resolution was agreed to, instructing the chairman to move for leave to bring in a bill founded on the resolution of the committee.
Poor Laws
wished shortly to call the attention of the House to the subject of the Poor Laws. He understood that all the measures which the committee on the Poor Laws had it in contemplation to propose were now introduced, namely, the Select Vestry bill, the Poor Laws Amendment bill, and that which it was proposed to postpone to another session, the Parish Settlement bill. Understanding that it was not the intention of the committee to go farther than these three measures, he could not help saying, that he felt considerable disappointment at their not taking a more extensive view of this great and important evil, and of the remedies which were adequate to meet that evil, than they appeared to have done in these three measures. He was sensible of the great labours of the committee, and of the importance of the body of evidence which they had collected on the subject. That evidence was indeed highly valuable; and whatever still remained to be done might well be done on that foundation. But seeing that the attempts of the committee were limited to these three measures, he wished to give this notice, that if the labours of another inquiry would allow him to apply his attention to the subject, he should this session—at any rate if he had a seat in the House, he should in the course of another session—lay before the House the result of the consideration which he had given to this subject. His first plan would have for its object the limitation of the progress of the burthen, that is, the affixing if possible, some limits to the progress of the burthen. His next plan was for gradually narrowing these limits. His next plan would have for its object the discovery of such means as might enable the legislature to equalize the burthen, so that it might not be thrown, as at present, on the land-owner only, but might affect, in something like an equal degree, the other classes of society. These were the three measures to which he should call the at- tention of the House; and he should bring the subject before the House either in the form of resolutions, or in that of bills, to lie over till next session. If, however, the other inquiry in which he was engaged, should not allow him to do this now, he should do so at an early period of next session.
said, the House and the country would be under great obligations to the hon. and learned gentleman if he could introduce any practical measures to meet the evils which had grown out of the Poor Laws. No subject could be more difficult of attainment than this, from the progress which the evil had already made. It was certainly highly desirable that some means for gradually reducing the rates from their present amount should be dicovered. This subject had engaged a great deal of the attention of the committee up stairs. The hon. and learned gentleman was under a mistake if he thought that the committee had no measures to submit, but the three bills before the House. The committee had not yet seen their way in this most difficult subject, as the hon. and learned gentleman seemed to have done; but it was the sense of that committee that other measures were necessary to prevent the evil from overwhelming the country. All he wished to state now was, the protesting against its being supposed to be the sense of the committee, that nothing ought to be done but those measures which they had already introduced.
said, he had been mistaken with regard to the intentions of the committee. As they had been sitting two sessions, he had hoped that whatever measures they might think it necessary to suggest would have been proposed this session: and he had, therefore, deferred coming forward till this late period, when no prospect remained of having any other measures from them. He was glad, however, to find that the committee had not made up their minds that no other measures were advisable—that they were not for shutting the door to any other measures. With respect to any views entertained by him of what was necessary for arresting the progress of the evil, he did not mean to say that steps should be taken for fixing a peculiar limit to the amount of the rates. His object was, to look to more remote means of operation on the system, by which in time, the same extension of relief as existed at present would no longer be necessary. He did not contemplate the laying down a maximum, as from the progress of the rates that would not be an easy matter.
Miscellaneous Estimates.]
On the order of the day for going into a committee of Supply, to which the Miscellaneous Estimates were referred,
before the House went into the committee, seeing a noble lord connected with the war department, in his place, wished to know if he could afford him any information on the subject of a regulation which excluded certain medical officers employed on the continent, with part of the army, at the time, from sharing the prize money due to the army, for the battle of Waterloo. This regulation was at variance with the old practice of the army, and with the course pursued through the whole of the peninsular war. In Spain, the medical officers had always shared prize money, and it seemed but fair that they should, as, though they were not often exposed to personal hazard, yet they were of essential service to the army with which they were connected. Those medical officers, however, who had been at Brussels at the time the battle of Waterloo was fought, had been refused a share of the prize money; yet that the medical staff had rendered most important services to the army, might be collected from the fact of their having restored 5,000 soldiers to the British army within six weeks of the time at which that battle was gained. The regulation alluded to subjected these gentlemen to a great hardship, and it was in direct opposition to the course which had been pursued through the whole peninsular war. While these persons were thus dealt with, there were many generals who had joined the army within a week of its entering Paris, who had never heard a shot fired, nor faced an enemy, but who notwithstanding were held to be entitled to share prize money, though all they had done was to travel comfortably in their post chaises, to enter Paris at their ease, and to visit the theatres and places of public amusement. These individuals who had thus enjoyed themselves were allowed a share of that prize money, which was denied to those who for months and months had had a most painful and important duty to perform.
said, the hon. gentleman was mistaken if he supposed that officers on the medical staff were excluded altogether from prize money. They generally shared according to their rank with the other officers, but it was true that a regulation had been adopted under which those only were entitled to prize money for the battle of Waterloo, who were connected with the troops engaged on the 16th, 17th, and 18th, of June, or who were present at the sieges and blockades of garrisons in France, and thus those who had remained at Brussels were excluded. If the hon. gentleman thought a new principle had been adopted in confining the distribution of prize money to the medical officers connected with different stations, he was mistaken. To prove this, he would refer the hon. gentleman to the payments made in the Peninsula, which he would find had been confined to stations, the first having been made to those who broke up from Coimbra to march to the Douro; the second, to those who broke up from Portugal on the 5th of March; and the third to those who were present at the taking of Ciudad Rodrigo. The regulation complained of had been adopted, as it was found necessary to draw a line somewhere. In the case referred to by the hon. member, the claims of those medical officers who remained at Brussels being admitted, because the men wounded in the battle of Waterloo subsequently fell under their care, why might not similar claims be advanced by the medical officers at home, as many of the sick had been sent to Plymouth? With regard to the several officers who joined a week before the army entered Paris, though they had made that sort of triumphal entry which had been described, yet the case might have been very different. In the week which passed before the army entered Paris, they might have been (and it very nearly happened so) engaged in a severe battle between the allies and the garrison of Paris, and those who joined the army at that time fully expected it.
contended, that the principle to which he objected had not been acted upon in the Peninsula, in various instances to which he referred. He considered that those medical officers who had joined at Brussels were entitled to share prize-money for the battle of Waterloo. At present he did not intend to do any thing, but he should certainly bring the subject forward early in the next session.
The House then went into the committee. On the motion, "That 15,000l. be granted to his majesty, for the purchase of land on Hounslow Heath for the exercise of cavalry, and that the said sum be issued and paid without any fee or other deduction whatsoever,"
said, he saw no necessity for the proposed grant; plenty of ground for such a purpose was open on Wimbledon Common. He also thought the purchase money too high.
showed that the price to be paid for the land in question was by no means unreasonably high: 300 acres were to be purchased for the 15,000l. and land in that neighbourhood had recently been, sold for 100l. per acre.
did not say that the price was great when the number of acres to be purchased was considered; he, however, could not see that it was necessary to purchase so large a piece of ground to exercise such a body of cavalry as were likely to be stationed at Hounslow. He felt this so strongly that he should take the sense of the committee on the resolution.
said, that Hounslow-heath was of all others the place where cavalry could be most economically exercised. In no other part of the kingdom could a brigade of cavalry be kept together for any length of time without erecting barracks for their accommodation. But at Hounslow-heath, from the vicinity of the barracks at Hounslow, Hampton Court, and Windsor, and from the number of villages in their neighbourhood, a brigade could be kept together for some months at a comparatively small expense.
The committee divided: Ayes 65, Noes 23.
List of the Minority. Althorp, viscount. Lefevre, C. S. Brougham, H. Martin, J. Barnett, J. Newport, sir J. Curwen, J. C. Ramsden, J. C. Douglas, hon. F. S. Romilly, sir S. Duncannon, viscount. Smyth, J. H. Fazakerly, N Tremayne, J. H. Finlay, K. Teed, J. Gordon, R. Warre, J. A. Hamilton, lord A. Wynn, sir W. W. Lemon, sir W. Teller. Lamb, hon. W. Calcraft, J. Latouche, R. jun.
French Indemnities
The House resumed. On the question, that the report be brought up,
rose to call the attention of the House to certain points relative to the pecuniary part of the treaties between this country and France. By the treaty or convention entered into at Paris, on the 20th of November 1815, sums of money were to be paid to Great Britain by France, in the shape of indemnities. The amount so to be paid, was at the time declared by the noble lord opposite, as intended to go pro tanto to relieve the people of England for the sacrifices they had made during the war, besides the sum to be paid by France to support the army of occupation. A considerable time ago a noble friend of his had declared in another place, that the share of the sum for maintaining the army of occupation, which this country was to receive, would, in the end, be found very inadequate, but this was at the time contradicted by the colleague of the noble lord opposite. Before the treaty of November 1815, Great Britain claimed from France a very large sum for civil contingencies, for the maintenance of French prisoners, &c. Under the convention concluded in conformity to the 4th article of the principle treaty, France was to pay Great Britain 125,000,000 francs, at the periods hereafter specified, viz.—
In the year Frs. Cts. Frs. Cts. 1816 15,000,000 0 1817 27,500,000 0 1818 27,500,000 0 1819 27,500,000 0 1820 27,500,000 0 125,000,000 0 An agreement was subsequently made with France, for postponing the payment of one-half, and interest was charged to France for such postponement amounting to 133,106 frs. 52 cts. The total received from France to the 1 st May 1818, was 60,966,439 84 This sum had been applied as follows:— Retained by the British commisioner, on account of the expenses of his establishment 555,666 66 Paid into the military chest in France towards the expenses of the army of occupation, over and above the sums received from France on account of that army 14,534,277 29 Paid to his grace the duke of Wellington, in Paris, towards the sum of 25,000,000 francs, granted by parliament as prize money to the troops under his grace's command 8,000,000 0 Remitted to England, and which produced the sum of 1,406,916l. 11s. 11d. sterling 31,886,833 34 Total applied 54,976,777 29
Now he thought the remittance to Eng of 1,400,000l. (to speak in round numbers) was to have been applied here in aid of the current expenses of the year; but he was astonished to find it had been sent back to France, and applied to military purposes, as follows:—
The sum of 1,406,916l. 11s. 11d. sterling, the proceeds of the 31,886,833 f. 34 c. remitted from France, as above stated, was applied as follows:— Towards completing the grant of the sum of 25,000,000 francs, as prize money to the army under the command of his grace the duke of Wellington 707,263 10 5 To the paymaster-general of the forces, in repayment of sums advanced and paid out of the extraordinaries of the army in England, for the use of the troops serving in France in 1816 and 1817 104,579 0 0 To the paymaster-general of the forces, in repayment of sums advanced and paid in England, out of the sums granted for the ordinary service of the army, on account of the troops serving in France in 1816 and 1817 595,074 1 6 1,406,916 11 11
By the treaty of 1815, the commissioner had received a grand total of 250,000,000 of francs, for which England had surrendered a claim of seven millions sterling, which she had at the conclusion of the war in 1814, for claims on account of French prisoners. So that on looking at the main balance, England, it would be found, was a very inconsiderable gainer, notwithstanding the vauntings of the noble lord opposite. Indeed, this was predicted at the time, and it was fairly said (though, as usual, the statement was contradicted), that the whole sum would go to maintain the vast military expense, and that not one halfpenny would go into the public purse for general purposes.
said, the hon. gentleman's observations were in many parts founded in error, from a want of attending to the necessary documents. He had forgotten that two millions went for the fortifications of the Netherlands, in return for which Great Britain received from Holland colonial acquisitions. Out of the 50,000,000 of francs for the army of occupation, the share for this country, as settled on the face of the protocol, was about 12 millions and a half, and the round sum was merely intended (and it was so declared) to support the continental force exclusive of the British. It would have been onerous indeed upon France, if she were to have, in maintaining a given number of men, the task of entirely supporting the British army, which it was known entailed double the expense of the same number of men in any other of the armies of Europe. The remittance alluded to as having been made to England, was not disposed of and sent back in the careless manner the hon. gentleman thought; but though generally set down in the accounts as paid again into the military chest, it was, in point of fact, applied at home for the reduction of such part of the expense as must necessarily be liquidated here. As to the donatives—the question relative to the grant at Waterloo was, as to the mode of arranging the amount for the British and allies conjointly, or by making a constitutional separation. When the whole charges were wound up, he was convinced the general arrangement would be found to have worked in the manner it was intended, so as to satisfy the whole of the demands which it was right to exact. On the subject of the private claims, three millions and a half had been paid into the hands of the commissioner, and he thought it was much more desirable to have accepted this specific amount from France than to have left the manner open to a number of different individual adjustments on the merits of each particular case. On the subject of the claims for prisoners of war, the hon. gentleman seemed to have argued, as if France had admitted a gross debt of 7,000,000l. sterling. Now this was not the fact; and the hon. gentleman had also fallen into an error, by arguing as if France had no sum to set off against it, for the maintenance of prisoners in her turn. The present government was certainly more likely to come to a fair adjustment on this head, than that which preceded it; for Buonaparté not only denied the gross amount of the British claim, but insisted upon setting up against it the expense of maintaining, not alone British prisoners, but Spanish, Hanoverian, and those of the other allies, brought by this country into the field; so that by this sort of calculation the hon. member would have found Great Britain not likely to have had a very solvent claim, or to realize much profit on striking the balance. He again repeated, that the winding up to the general arrangement would be most satisfactory, and that it was to the honour of France that she, up to this day, had religiously fulfilled her payments without the smallest defalcation.
remarked, that the noble lord had not said one word to touch the observations of his hon. friend. The substance of those observations was, that the country was led by the noble lord to expect from the last treaty a two-fold advantage; first, that France would have to pay for the maintenance of the army of occupation; and, secondly, that the public would derive further pecuniary relief from the sums to be paid by France. The noble lord said, that the two sums added together paid the army; but why not have kept them separate, and for distinct purposes, so as to enable parliament to hold some control over the application of the money? The noble lord indeed said, that there had been a glorious result, because England had nothing to pay; but why had not she something to receive for her sacrifices, as the noble lord had exultingly promised? He had indeed told the House, for the first time, that the Dutch gave colonial acquisitions to England for the part she took in the question of the fortifications. But, then, he said, the papers on the table would give every information, and that the hon. gentleman was wrong in not more accurately examining them. Why, the real cause of this was, the unsatisfactory manner in which the accounts were made out. The noble lord thought every thing was very clear when he laid such a complicated mass of papers on the table which it was impossible for any man to read. The noble lord also gave his explanation with so much suavity, and in so level a tone of voice, that it was almost impossible to imagine the subject had any importance, beyond an ordinary common-place question. It was now clear, that the general civil claim of the country was compromised for one-half its expected amount, and this was the result of the noble lord's diplomatic skill, after the shoutings with which he was hailed on his entrance into the House, after concluding the treaty! All the boastings, it now appeared, ended in nothing.
The report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
Alien Bill.]
The bill was read a third time. After which,
proposed the following clause, "Provided always, and be it further enacted, that every such alien, before being sent out of the country, shall receive notice the space of at least one month before he shall be so sent, and in case, during the said space of one month, any vessel shall sail to any kingdom, country, or place, where such alien may desire to be carried, shall have liberty to embark himself on board of such vessel, any thing in this act, or in the said recited act, to the contrary notwithstanding; provided always, that it shall and may be lawful to keep such alien in custody during the aforesaid space of one month and until he shall have embarked on board of such vessel." On the question, that the clause be read a second time,
said, he must object to it. Circumstances might occur which rendered it necessary to order an alien out of the country at a moment's notice. But if, added to the option of delaying their departure, such characters were also to select their place of retreat, the evil was incalculably worse. A foreigner might transport himself here, for the most mischievous ends, and after thus pestering this country, might, if the hon. and learned gentleman carried his point, demand to be conveyed from hence, even to South America, and the government must defray the expenses of his freight. He appre- hended that this would turn out a very bad bargain for the country.
although he supported the bill, felt it his duty to support the present clause, because, although any country had a right to expel foreigners from its shores, still the government of the country had no right to send the alien to a country where it might perhaps be dangerous for him to attempt to land. He voted for it, not from any suspicion that his majesty's ministers would abuse their powers; but it should not be forgotten that it was the nature of all power to be abused. Laws were not made to guard against what men would do, but to protect the people against what they might do.
objected to the amendment, as entitling the alien to put the government to considerable expense as to his passage to that particular port to which he was inclined to transport himself.
expressed his astonishment that the noble secretary of state, and the hon. gentleman who spoke last, should put such a construction on this clause as they had done. They had, it seemed, discovered a new mode of interpreting acts of parliament, and he congratulated the hon. gentleman in having attained this knowledge so soon after his appointment. They argued, that the alien must be sent to any place—to Botany Bay, for instance, at the expense of the government. Now what was the fact? The clause said, that such alien should have liberty to embark himself on board a vessel, &c. Did this make out that the government was to bear the expense?—that a right to embark in the good ship, Mary, to Botany bay, instead of Bourdeaux, or to Bourdeaux instead of Botany Bay would subject the government to defray the expense of the stage-coach to the coast, the custom-house fees, the passage in the vessel, the charge for stores, and the steward's dues, the boat on landing, the porter for carrying the trunks to the White Bear Inn, or the Hotel de la Paix? As this was the first opportunity he had had, and would in all probability be the last he should have of expressing his sentiments on this subject, he now desired to enter his protest against the whole of the measure—to express his disapprobation, not to say his abhorrence, of it. With a a view to save the time of the House, he would now propose another clause, and and they might be discussed together. This clause was to enable aliens to be heard by their council or agents as well as by themselves, before the privy council. It was nothing more than a mockery, a mere nominal or verbal check, to provide that the alien himself, ignorant perhaps of the language, might be heard. The noble lord, on a former occasion, had said that the alien might be accompanied by an interpreter; but it was not the interpretation of languages that was wanted; it was the "habitus practicus interpretandi legum," and that could be performed only by a person conversant with the laws of the country. He lamented that this measure had been so little noticed by the public. Whenever a new tax was proposed, or an old one was sought to be repealed, the people rose from one end of the country to the other; but on a point that so vitally affected the liberties of the constitution, and which would cast such a stain on our character in the eyes of Europe, they were totally indifferent, cold, and silent. It had been said that the bill was for the guilty, and not for the innocent; but if such a power was given, they might as well at once give the sword of justice to the Crown, and let the cadi or the vizier, or whoever he might be, exercise the power of trying and transporting whoever they might think guilty. If the law was directed, as seemed to be the intention, instead of guilty aliens they might alter the word, and say guilty subjects. It was, in fact, neither more nor less than a suspension of the constitution. They were, indeed, in a sad condition, if they were to pass a measure of such vital importance on such grounds—if they were to proceed as they had before done, upon reports which had been swollen and exaggerated till they reached and poisoned the easy ear of lord St. Vincent [Hear, hear!]. He should have said, of lord Sidmouth; but if any apology were due to the House for the mistake he had made, it was much more due to the noble earl whose name he had so unluckily coupled with that of the present secretary of state for the home department. No two men could be more dissimilar; and it was only because the contrast between the two was so striking, the energy and talents of the one so opposed to the inefficiency and deficiency of the other that the two names had been brought together in his mind, and earl St. Vincent's title obtruded upon the House in a debate with a subject of which he had in truth no connexion. If he had been called upon to point out two individuals, the direct reverse of each other in all particulars that qualified a man for a high office in the state, he could not have been more happy in his selection than when he mentioned earl St. Vincent and viscount Sidmouth. The hon. and learned gentleman concluded, with declaring himself strongly against the bill, and hoping that the clauses which he proposed would be accepted.
advised the hon. and learned gentleman not to make so frequent a use of exaggeration. It was on the management of lights and shades that depended the effect of a picture. To cry out upon every occasion that the nation was lost, was to cry "wolf" to the country to no purpose, and to weaken any little authority he might have had when his call was really serious.—Notwithstanding all the elegant Latin, and all the forensic humour, which the hon. and learned gentleman had applied to the purpose of his speech, he could agree neither with his Latin nor his humour. There was nothing introduced into the hon. and learned gentleman's clause relative to the alien, who might wish to be transported to a particular part bearing his own expenses. If this was his intention, it ought to be so expressed; if not, the whole expense was laid upon the country—a serious objection in these times of distress and economy.—That was the fact; and he defied the most practicus habitus man in the House to prove the contrary. The clause farther proposed as a mitigation of the bill, would enact, that the alien should have a month allowed him to choose his destination, and that he should spend that month in prison. Now the bill which was thus to be mitigated, inflicted on the alien no imprisonment at all. As to suffering him to choose his own destination, supposing that he was engaged in some plot, like that lately detected against the life of the duke of Wellington, would he not ask to be sent to the very place where that plot was to be executed? And should government thus afford him the means of doing that, which it was the object of the measure to prevent? In the case before, that of Las Cases, an individual had requested to be sent to Hamburgh instead of Ostend, and his request had been attended to. Did that argue any disposition on the part of ministers to abuse their power? As to the second clause which the hon. and learned gentleman had announced, it would make the bill altogether a new one, and turn an executive into a judicial proceeding. With respect to the danger which required a measure like the present, could any one imagine that if the conflagration was kindled in France, it would not involve this country? Whenever the storm might rise it would carry us in its whirl, England must be shaken in her orbit, if the rest of the system were disturbed. It was, therefore, the duty of parliament, to take measures to prevent the country from being over-run by the very pests, and refuse of Europe—by those who, driven from their own country by their crimes, sought shelter in this until they could ripen into action their detestable machinations. Formerly, during the French revolution, these islands had been the refuge of all that was loyal and respectable; but the other side of the House were now desirous that the very reverse should happen, and that treasons, not only against ourselves, but against our neighbours, should be hatched in a country where, in the earlier ages, treason was almost unknown. The opposers of this measure seemed anxious that new scenes of glory and ambition should be opened to those, who had learnt no lesson from the calamities of their country, but how to avail themselves of its distresses for their own aggrandizement [Hear, hear!]. Did not the publications which daily arrived from the Netherlands prove, that a set of malignant spirits were there hovering about who still hoped to undo the work of peace, and to rekindle the flames of war? Like the philosopher of old, they called for a resting place for their lever—"Give us where to stand and we will shake the world." The answer given to them by this bill is—"You shall not stand here." [Loud cheers]. But a few years had elapsed since England was the depository of the hopes and, fortunes of the world. All longing eyes, were turned to her; and other powers, who occasionally shrunk from the contest, returned to it again when they marked her standard unceasingly displayed above the smoke of battle. It had stood firm and unshaken in the rudest shock of war; and what man, who loved the glory of his country, or valued the liberty of the world, would consent even to the chance that it might become the unsuspecting prey to secret and foreign enemies? It might be said that this bill was offering a slight violence to the old sys- tem of our laws; but he (Mr. Canning) was convinced, that we might be justified in modifying for some time longer, that part of our constitution which regarded foreigners. It was a temporary sacrifice to secure the tranquillity achieved by our victories; and for such a purpose it was not only justifiable, but necessary. As to the hands to whom the power should be intrusted, that was a matter of little consequence; and he (Mr. C.) should feel content if it were reposed in any English gentleman competent to fill the office of a minister of state. If the hon. gentlemen opposite were in power, he would willingly confide it to them: and from them he only required for himself and his colleagues, that confidence which he would cheerfully have reposed in them.
rested his opposition to the bill upon the ancient laws and constitution of the country. If Magna Charta were yet to be respected—if it were not a disgrace at this time of day to refer to its salutary provisions, he should point it out to the House as affording abundant reason for rejecting the bill now under consideration. The right hon. gentleman who spoke last had complained that the hon. and learned mover of the clause had on frequent occasions cried Wolf! wolf! when no such ravenous animal was at hand; but while ministers persevered in measures like the present, the cry could not be too often repeated; the danger was not only at hand, but in execution; Wolf! wolf! ought to have long been the cry all over the country, for the unhappy people had long suffered under the rending jaws of pitiless and insatiable wolves [Cheers]. The hon. baronet then cited the authority of lord Coke upon that part of Magna Charta which respected the hospitality and protection due to foreigners, contending that the words "publicly prohibited," used by that great judge, were explained by him to mean, not prohibited by royal proclamation, for the Crown never legally possessed that prerogative, but prohibited by act of parliament. The hon. baronet argued that the laws which governed its own natives were sufficient to regulate the conduct of foreigners, and to punish their mal-practices; and consequently that the object of this bill, like many others, was only to lodge power in the hands of the Crown, in order that it might be abused. The right hon. gentleman had asserted that, during the French Revolution, this country had been the refuge of all that was loyal and respectable; but these were mere words, and he had offered no proofs; indeed, it would be much more correct to state that it had become the lurking place of all that was degraded and despotic—of those who fled from the revenge of an injured and oppressed people struggling to regain its liberties. The real object of this Alien bill was, to aid that European conspiracy in which the noble lord opposite had taken so active a part, and the effect of it would be, to destroy that character for generosity and hospitality by which the people of England had hitherto been distinguished. Another effect would be, to drive all the talent and industry of Europe to that now only free country in the world, America. The right hon. gentleman had objected to what he called making the measure judicial, and for the plain reason that it established some control over the conduct of ministers. It would compel them to be less arbitrary and despotic, because they might be brought before another tribunal—the usual pretence of ministerial responsibility, by which the House had been so frequently juggled, though the country could not quite so easily be deceived. That responsibility had been used and abused with regard to our own subjects, who had been tyrannically and unconstitutionally imprisoned, and was it to be expected, that it would be more respected when the defenceless subjects of other States were concerned? Responsibility in the first instance was usually converted into indemnity in the last, as was proved in the case of the Habeas Corpus suspension: in fact, ministers were no more controlled by this stalking horse responsibility, than they had been by the natural feelings of humanity and the dictates of conscience.
was anxious to embrace this last opportunity of resisting the progress of this bill. It was urged, that its operation would be confined to criminal foreigners, and yet, with singular inconsistency, the right hon. gentleman had objected to the clause which gave the party accused an opportunity of stating his own case, and being heard by counsel; so that, in fact, that measure which was to be directed against criminal foreigners was to be so framed that no means were allowed to ascertain whether they were innocent or guilty. The right hon. gentleman had also said, that he should be satisfied if the power were lodged in the hands of an English gentleman. Undoubtedly, the secretary of state for the Home department was a gentleman, and of course the right hon. gentleman must be contented that the execution of the bill were intrusted to him: it was of no consequence whether he had the talents or the foresight which became a great officer of state—whether he was likely to become the dupe of spies and informers—he was an English gentleman, and that was enough! [Hear, hear!]. The right hon. gentleman never thought of satisfying the country—if he were satisfied, nothing more was necessary. He had also asserted that France could not be disturbed internally or externally, without such an effect being produced upon England that she must necessarily be embroiled in the contest. Surely this was most alarming intelligence in the present state of out finances, and coming from such a quarter. It was much to be dreaded that, should the tranquillity of France at any future period be disturbed, the people of Great Britain would be called upon to bear new burthens and to undergo new privations for the support of that interest which ministers thought fit to espouse. The right hon. gentleman had reproached his hon. and learned friend with inconsistency in opposing these injurious and unconstitutional measures. Doubtless, judging from the conduct of the right hon. gentleman, he held it a disgrace to adhere to the same opinions or to the same friends. He enjoyed all the advantages of inconsistency, and those who resisted this measure could long ago have partaken of those honours if they would have consented to the same mental degradation to procure them. The only danger pointed out by the right hon. gentleman arose from a few discontented individuals in the Netherlands, who sought a fulcrum for their engine of destruction; but it was singular that, as this was the only danger, it had this night been broached for the first time. The speech of the right hon. gentleman was a piece of splendid declamation, containing some pleasantry, but no argument. It was lamentable to see the House so easily prevailed upon to sanction a measure which would include in its operation above 20,000 persons resident in this country, and many of whom had connected themselves with it by marriage.
contended, that the measure was gratuitous and uncalled for; and that it was inconsistent with the spirit of our laws and constitution. It had been for the first time proposed, without the statement of any facts to show its expediency, and had been grounded on a mere set of possibilities, which did not afford the shadow of a shade of danger as a cause for it. The less we had to do with the transactions between foreign governments and their subjects the better; and this bill was calculated to make us parties in all such transactions.
observed, that by passing this bill we sanctioned in the people the belief that they were in a peril which did not exist, and prepared them for consenting to any other measures that might be proposed to guard against a non-existing danger. The bill had no other object but to sap and undermine the constitution.
opposed the motion. He said, he would not intrust this power to any party, for it was tyranny, and tyranny when ingrafted on the constitution would produce tyranny throughout the entire. If the Alien bill and the Bank Restriction bill were the fruits of the battle of Waterloo, the blood of Britons had indeed been shed in vain.
The House divided on Mr. Brougham's clause:
Ayes 35 Noes 87 Majority against it —52
List of the Minority. Astell, W. Jervoise G. P. Althorp, visct. Lemon, sir Wm. Babington, Thos. Mackintosh, sir J. Baker, J. Markham, adm. Barham, Jos. Martin, John Barnett, James Newport, sir John Brougham, H. Parnell, Wm. Burdett, sir F. Philips, George Byng, George Ramsden, J. C. Carter, John Ridley, sir M. W. Compton, lord Romilly, sir S. Duncannon, visct. Smith, R. Fazakerly, N. Symonds, T. P. Fergusson, sir R. C. Tavistock, marquis Folkestone, visct. Tierney, rt. hon. G. Finlay, K. Warre, J. A. Gordon, R. TELLERS. Howorth, H. Douglas, hon. F. Hurst, Robt. Smith, W.
Sir S. Romilly then moved his clause for exempting from the operation of the bill aliens who were resident in Great Britain and Ireland on 1st of January, 1814, and who had ever since continued to reside therein. Lord Castlereagh observed, that foreigners, although long resident in this country, might be made the instruments of mischief. Sir S. Romilly replied, so might natives—the next step therefore of government ought to be directed against them. The clause was negatived without a division. Mr. Brougham then proposed at the end of the Bill to add the words "except as far as the same relates to women married to natural born subjects of the realm, or to persons who have been naturalized." The question being put, "That these words be there added," the House divided:
Ayes 37 Noes 87
The question being put, "That the Bill do pass," the House divided:
Ayes 94 Noes 29 Majority —65