rose to bring forward the motion on this subject of which he had given notice. He said, he was perfectly sensible of his inadequacy to introduce a matter of such real moment. He had been urged by many proprietors of land, however, and particularly by a most respectable grand jury at the last assizes, to bring on some motion to the effect of that with which he should conclude. That body had stated it to be their unanimous opinion, that the present existing laws were not beneficial, but the contrary; and that they had produced so many consequences of an injurious nature, that it would be out of his power to enumerate them. He trusted that his inadequacy to do justice to the subject would be excused, and perhaps made amends for, by those members interested in it who were present. By the system of law which existed, the innocent were frequently punished for the guilty. It was impossible for him to enumerate all the instances which had occurred, of the severity with which the law had been administered. That severity certainly had been great; and, the expenses attending the system had been very considerable. In 1814, the expenses incurred in rewards alone, under the present system of preventing illicit distillation, was 8,864l., while 71,000l. had been paid to lawyers. Returns had been produced, stating what had been the exact diminution or increase of illicit distillation; and it was proved to have increased since the late severe penalties with which it had been visited. In former times, it had been sufficient to confiscate the property of the distiller, and to punish him; but now the punishment fell in fact, on the township. There was no civilized country in the world where a similar system prevailed, and there was hardly any country where similar practices did not occur; in some parts, indeed the pains, of death were not sufficient to prevent them. The hon. general concluded with moving, "That leave be given to bring in a bill to repeal such parts of the Act of the 54th of the king, and all former acts relating to Distillation of Spirits, as authorize the imposing and levying of fines on Town Lands and other districts in Ireland."

said:—It is much to be regretted that the gallant general—should, just at the close of the session, have proposed so important a measure as the repeal of the whole code of laws applicable to the Irish distilleries. He must know that if an inclination existed to concur in his view of the operation of those laws which, when he considers the recorded opinions of this House, he cannot suppose to exist—time sufficient does not now remain to pass his proposed bill. But the effects of stirring this question, unless the House give a decided negative to it, will be very mischievous, for the unfortunate whiskey smugglers in the north of Ireland are at this time taught to expect that an effort will be successfully made to do away the Townland Fine system, when they might renew their illicit trade which has been nearly crushed by it. The object of the hon. general's motion is, to impeach and repeal this system, the principle of which the House knows is to make the vicinage responsible for the delinquency. It is not at this day necessary to prove that this principle is accordant to the constitution, and to very old Statute laws both of Great Britain and of Ireland—it rests upon the very nature of society, which implies not only that no person shall commit an act directly subversive of its interests, but that reasonable activity shall be used by the members of society in at least their own neighbourhoods, to detect those who do acts contrary to the vital interest of society. These townland fines were enacted by the Irish parliament for the prevention of smuggling, so long back as 1783 and continued with various modifications until the year 1803, when they were for the first time since the Union noticed and amended. In the year 1810, on the proposition of the chancellor of the Irish exchequer (Mr. W. Pole), the parliament suspended their operation for two years, and in the year 1812 repealed them. The immediate consequence of this repeal wag an augmentation of illicit distillation to so alarming an extent, that applications, memorials, and petitions were put forth in the year 1813 from most respectable quarters, praying for the re-enactment of those laws which (as petitioners stated) had just when they were suspended began to operate beneficially.

In proof of this, the right hon. baronet referred to various petitions from resident and mercantile gentlemen in Ireland, and particularly of Drogheda, Belfast, Lon- donderry, and Tyrone, from which he read the following extracts from the Drogheda petition:—"That memorialists request the attention of government to the present unprecedented extent of illicit distillation, which is every day increasing to such an alarming degree that memorialists are of opinion that if government shall not immediately take some strong and well concerted measures to put a stop to this illegal traffic, it will be a work of many years to suppress it and efface the bad effects of that trade from the habits of the people.—That the mountainous nature of large tracts of Ireland affords facilities to private distillation, and the natural disposition of the people in general throughout these parts of the country induce them to screen and to assist the persons guilty of that offence. And your memorialists submit that no measure can be so effectual to prevent Such frauds as measures which would make it the interest of those adjacent to private distilleries to give information against them, and prevent their illegal trade by fastening the consequences of detection on the principal parties, and not as at present on their poor hired instruments. That the fines on the townlands had the desired effect of nearly suppressing private distillation, as at the time that salutary law was repealed, there was not then at work one tenth of the number of private distilleries that were in use when that law was enacted; and the first disagreeable effects of the laws had nearly subsided when it was repealed.—Memorialists therefore beg leave to recommend to government the re-enactment of the fine upon the townlands as the most effectual mean of preventing the offence, and correcting the evils complained of."

The Belfast petition which is signed by nearly one hundred of the principal merchants, contains the following paragraphs:—"That the practice of illicit distillation, to a most unprecedented extent, is now carried on in this country but particularly in this and some of the adjoining counties, you are no doubt sufficiently informed, and the undersigned have to complain of it as a grievance of the most serious nature, the immense quantities of illicit spirits at present consumed in this town and neighbourhood having so far limited the consumption of such spirits as pay his Majesty's duties; that the brewing and spirit trades do not afford a livelihood to the one half of those who follow them, indeed such is the supply of illicit spirits in this part of the country that although it is now more than twelve months since distillation from grain was prohibited, there is still a quantity of corn spirits in Belfast, unconsumed.—Amongst the various experiments which have from time to time been had recourse to for the purpose of suppressing illicit distillation in Ireland, the undersigned beg leave respectfully to, state, that from the undeniable good effects which it produced in this part of Ireland, none appeared to them to be half so well calculated to accomplish that desirable object, as levying fines of the town lands, where private stills were found; while that salutary law was in force, such was the check given to illicit distillation, that vast quantities of rum and corn spirits were permitted from Belfast into those districts where private distillation had most prevailed, and into which districts, long before that law was enacted, as well as since it was repealed, scarcely a gallon of legally distilled spirits have found their way.—There was no doubt a great outcry made against the impolicy and injustice of levying those fines by some of the townlands, which had been most heavily assessed but while the law provided that in the event of any inhabitant of the townland giving the necessary information to detect the illegal distiller, such townland of course should be relieved from that fine; the inhabitants of such townlands had themselves alone to blame for the heavy penalties to which they were subjected; nor indeed until it again becomes every man's interest to detect and punish the illegal distiller, can it be expected that that illicit traffic will cease. The undersigned being thus deeply interested in suppressing illicit distillation, and in freeing their fair trade from the ruinous interference of the private distiller, beg most respectfully to suggest that the law imposing fines on the townlands where private stills are found, may be re-enacted, and the more these fines are increased, the more certainly will they effect the total suppression of illicit distillation. That punishments adequate to the offence, and such as may deter from the commission of it be inflicted on either public or private individuals detected in purchasing, or having in their possession contraband spirits, and that heavy fines be imposed on magistrates and others so offending, whose duty it is to enforce and maintain, not to violate the law.—In fine the undersigned are willing to express their firm confidence that such measures will now be adopted as will effectually strike at the root of the evil; and when the power of the law is once so effectually exercised as to prevent the manufacture of contraband spirits, then, and only then will the revenue and the fair dealer be protected from impositions, and only then will all the intricate and grievous oaths, and laws framed to prevent the circulation and consumption of contraband spirits become obsolete and void."

The petition from Londonderry has the following:—"That memorialists request the attention of government to the present unprecedented extent of illicit distillation, which is every day increasing to such an alarming degree, that memorialists are of opinion, if government shall not immediately take some strong measures to put a stop to this illegal traffic, it will, in the end, ruin the public distiller, the brewer, and licensed malster. That the mountainous nature of large tracts of Ireland affords facilities to private distillation, and the habits of the people in general throughout these parts of the country induce them to screen, and to assist the persons guilty of that offence.—That the fines on the townlands had the effect of nearly suppressing private distillation, for at the time that salutary law was repealed, there was not then at work in this neighbourhood any thing like the number of private distilleries that were in use when that law was enacted, and the effects of its repeal has caused the great increase of private distillation, which is fully proved by the want of permitted Irish distilled spirits in this city, there not being now twenty gallons of legal distilled whiskey in the possession of the numerous retailers in this district, nor has there been almost any brought into this part of the country for three years back."

The Tyrone petition states, "That the practice of illicit distillation to a most unprecedented extent is now carried on in this and some of the adjacent counties. You are no doubt sufficiently informed, and the undersigned have to complain of it as a grievance of the most serious nature; the immense quantity of illicit spirits at present consumed here, having so far limited the consumption of such spirits as have paid his majesty's duties, that the brewing and spirit trades do not afford a livelihood to the one-half of those who follow them. Amongst the various experiments from time to time government have had recourse to, for the purpose of suppressing illicit distillation in Ireland—the undersigned beg leave most respectfully to state, that from the undeniable good effects which it produced in this part of Ireland, none appeared to them to be half so well calculated to accomplish that most desirable object, as levying fines of the townlands where private, stills were found; while that most salutary law was in force, such was the check given to illicit distillation, that vast quantities of corn spirits were permitted from wholesale dealers, into those districts where private distillation had most prevailed, and into which districts long before that law was enacted as well as since it was repealed, scarcely a gallon of legally distilled spirits have found their way. There was no doubt a great outcry made against the impolicy and injustice of those fines, by some of the townlands which had been most heavily amerced; but while the law provided, that in the event of any individuals of the townland giving the necessary information to detect the illegal distiller, such townland of course should be relieved from that fine. The inhabitants of such townlands had themselves alone to blame for the heavy penalties to which they were subjected, nor indeed until it becomes again every roan's interest to detect and punish the private distiller, can it be expected that illegal distillation will cease."

A committee up stairs, composed all of members for Ireland, was appointed in 1813, to whom these and other documents were referred, and they are to be found in the report of that committee; the signatures to them are very numerous, and from the high respectability of the individuals subscribing, they deserved and received very respectful attention, and, without doubt, had considerable influence on the decision of this committee, which almost unanimously, after a laborious investigation, reported and recommended the re-enactment of the Townland Fine laws, which report was approved of by this House, and a bill conformable to it was passed.

Various detections of illicit distilleries were made in the winter; and at the following Spring assizes of 1814, a number of fines were laid on the county of Donegal, and if these fines had been (as they were in other counties) forthwith levied, and as by law they ought to have been levied, much subsequent mischief would have been prevented. But the high constable of Ennishowen after pretended efforts and various statements of excuse refused to do his duty, although a military camp was formed in the centre of the barony in Summer 1814, to afford him and the peace officers protection. In consequence of this conduct, special collectors of still fines were appointed, and in 1815 considerable exertion was used to fine some of he most inveterate smuggling districts. These proceedings and the particular state of that part of the north of Ireland induced this House, in the session of 1816, to direct a farther inquiry, and a committee up stairs was again appointed. He had the honour to preside as chairman of each of these committees, and with some modifications, this last committee reported in favour of the Townland fine laws, which report was adopted by this House by a very great majority.

This House will perceive with surprise, that all the severity and oppression complained of as having occurred by the operation of this system had taken place previous to the appointment of the committee in 1816, before which committee it was competent to the gallant general to have laid each and every case of alleged hardship. The severities complained of had mostly occurred in the year 1815, when full activity was given to the operation of the law; and since October 1816 to the present time, no more than 500l. has been levied of these fines from the county of Donegal, and only one-half of that sum of Ennishowen.

A long detail of grievances has been given in a pamphlet published and diligently distributed by a very respectable clergyman and magistrate of Ennishowen, for whom the right hon. baronet expressed both respect and esteem. It has been, however, answered by a gentleman of the revenue, deservedly in the confidence of the board of excise; the pamphlet was very much directed against the conduct of that board, but the right hon. baronet professed not to refer to either of these publications, neither to the asperity of the attack, nor to the severity of the reply; he deprecated the idea of such documents influencing the decision of the House of Commons, who had their own legitimate mode of procuring such information as elucidation demanded, for the adoption or rejection of any measure proposed.

The board of excise, and particularly the very respectable gentleman at the head of it, were always well inclined to hearken to complaints against their officers, and to punish and give relief in every case deserving of it. In the summer of 1816, a commissioner of that board was sent to the north of Ireland, to investigate the excesses stated by the reverend author of the pamphlet, to have been committed by a collector of still fines in the previous year: the evidence taken in the course of that investigation is printed, and on the table of this House, to which it is more candid to refer, than to the high coloured statements of this pamphlet, and it is but just to observe, that the officer complained against had a most arduous, difficult, and dangerous duty to perform, that much allowance was, from the state of the country, to be made for" him, yet he was suspended and dismissed; the excise board have therefore in; this and other instances proved themselves alive to any complaints made and; proved against their officers.

Here the right hon. bart. entered into a detail of outrages committed by the smugglers of Donegal, arguing that their illicit pursuits had disorganized society, producing conspiracy, murder and assassinations, many of which were related in the pamphlet alluded to, and many of which had occurred before the renewal, in 1813, of the Townland fine system; and he argued that it was not the fine system, but the inveterate propensity to smuggling, and its consequences which had distressed and degraded parts of Donegal, It might be unpopular to say so, but the fact was, that for the last forty years, the manufacture of illicit spirits was a trade pursued in a large part of Donegal, which demoralized and disorganized society, and produced all the shocking consequences of the nature described.

The propensity to smuggling in this district was on record so long ago as the years 1784 and 85, when the Irish parliament threatened to deprive the city of Londonderry of the privilege of being a wine and tobacco port, on account of the inveterate habits of smuggling in Ennishowen, which is so near to it.

The right hon. baronet urged the absurdity of Donegal being the only county where the landlords could not suppress smuggling. It has been suppressed in the neighbouring counties, which had paid severely under the Townland fine law. These counties, without difficulty or arrear, had these fines levied by their own high constables, whereas the misconduct of the high constable of Ennishowen chiefly caused the necessity of appointing the special still fine collectors, so much complained of, and this high constable of Ennishowen was neither dismissed or punished in any manner by the grand jury of Donegal. What right of monopoly in smuggling (he asked) ought Donegal to claim? not surely a right from usage; and if its delinquency is to be forgiven, the fines paid by Londonderry ought in justice to be refunded. Wherever landlords decidedly and resolutely gave their tenants to understand that smuggling must be got under, they had succeeded. He knew various instances wherein energy and determination had conquered it, and he could not conceive what there was peculiar to the county of Donegal to prevent their success there also. A large tract of country in the county of Tyrone, where fines had been imposed to a considerable extent, had been, by the exertions of the proprietors and their agents, thoroughly cleared of smugglers: similar exertions have been equally successful in the county of Londonderry.

The right hon. baronet conjured the House to hold the principle of Townland fines over the country, as severity was essential to abolish this trade, so baneful in its effects. He stated that the hon. general had attended a meeting of magistrates, in the barony of Ennishowen, in his own town of Muff, in the latter end of 1816, when the fining system had actually been suspended by orders from government, and the gallant general joined in the unanimous recommendation of that meeting to government, to place Ennishowen under the operation of the Insurrection act.

He would here relate one instance of outrage which had been perpetrated during this suspension, and noticed at this meeting, as it proves (amongst many others) the horrid state to which morals have been abased in that country; and which, with, strange perverseness, is attributed by some gentlemen to the Townland fines. An organized assemblage of near 200 persons endeavoured four or five different times to way-lay and murder a man named George Balfour, and why? because he had dared to give information where Magenis, one of the murderers of Norton Butler, was secreted. Their plan to murder Balfour was known to many hundreds, and yet no discovery of it was made, and accordingly Balfour was, on the fifth time these miscreants assembled for the purpose, met by them and murdered in the most brutal manner.

This recommendation to government to proclaim Ennishowen, proves decidedly the opinion of the gallant general and the other magistrates, of the state of that barony. The operation of the Insurrection act is far more severe than the Townland fine system, but it would not stop the illicit distillation of whiskey.

It is vain to assert, that smuggling has not been diminished; for the transit of barley across Lough Foyle to Ennishowen, from other counties of the north, and the return again of spirits has totally ceased; the same to Scotland; the smugglers am driven to their most remote fastnesses and the traffic will, by persevering against it, be at last annihilated. Already four legal distilleries, paying a large revenue and capable of affording a good price for the barley of the country, are established in the vicinity of Ennishowen. The proper time for this proposal, to abrogate the distillery laws, cannot for one moment be maintained to be at the close of a session of parliament, and the discussion of it calculated to create doubts in the minds of the smugglers, and those who encourage them, as to the continuance of the fining system, will be most mischievous. Under all these circumstances, he hoped the House would on this occasion reject the present motion.

pressed upon the gallant general the propriety of withdrawing his motion.

said, it was impossible that the same measures could be employ ed to advantage in mountainous districts and other parts. He might ask any lawyer whether it was possible by law properly to make an accessary, before or after the fact, a principal; but by that law the accessary before and after the fact was not only made, but was made a principal. Let the House consider the position in which they were placed by that measure; they must either impoverish districts, or accumulate a charge upon the country. The property that had been charged could not amount to less than 600,000l. The sums charged on different parts were enormous, and not one shilling of indemnity had been received from the effects of that unjust and impolitic measure. If the proper powers had been exercised, the practice of illicit distillation would have been put down, and it would not have been necessary to resort to this unconstitutional measure. At least, it should not have been resorted to till all other means had been tried in vain.

said, the first question that arose was, had the measure been efficacious? If not, there was ground for repeal. It might be efficacious and yet unjust, and then there was no reason why it should not be repealed. It was necessary it should be proved to have been effective not alone in one district. It might, however, have foiled in one district, and have been efficacious in the rest of Ireland. There was not one petition against it but from the county of Donegal. On the contrary, documents had been presented proving the system to have been as successful as could have been anticipated. If he compared the number of fines, and found a decrease with the system, then it might be Said to be successful. If he examined the rewards to the civil and military power, and found them diminish, then it might be said that it was efficacious. The quantity of illicit spirits increasing, tendered the demand for legal spirits less; but if the latter increased, then he might argue that the system was successful. In five years great alterations had taken place among the fines. In Lent assizes, 1814, there had been 1,327 still fines; in 1815, 1,506; in 1816, 1058; and in 1818, the amount had diminished to 368. The two last years had diminished by one-fourth. Of rewards in 1813, the sum paid to the military and to the civil power had amounted to 21,000l.; in 1815, it was 15.000l.; and last year 7,000l. Last year, therefore, it was one third of the sum paid in 1813. With regard to legal spirits, in three years in the county of Derry, there had been consumed 18;000 gallons, before the operation of this measure, but in the last three years the consumption had been 111,000 gallons, six times the amount of the former. In Ulster, the consumption far the three last years had been 1,540,000 gallons, a quantity greater than what had been consumed in three years before the measure was in operation. In 1817, the fines on the whole of Ireland, except Donegal, were 593, and in that county 619 more than in all Ireland besides. For the last five years in Kilkenny there had been 13 fines, in Cork 12, in Wicklow 5, in Waterford 3, and in Kerry not one. For these 33, there had been in Donegal 3,400, i.e. for every one in these parts, there had been 100 in the county of Donegal. The question then arose, why could not things be managed differently in that county? There was a variety of Causes which operated against that. It was a fact; that, in that county, the tithes amounted in the worst and most remote parts, to 12s. per acre. A memorial had been presented by a Mr. Robert Young to the board of excise, in which he had expressed his surprise that he should have suffered more than those who had employed all their exertions to support illicit distillation, though it had been his constant endeavour to suppress it. By the evidence of a revenue officer, which had not been contradicted, a Mr. Lucius Carey had actually imported mantraps, with the avowed intention of catching any revenue officer that might come near them. There seemed to be a particular fondness for illicit spirits in Donegal, which, perhaps, operated as a kind of premium for them. The gallant general, on his examination, oh one occasion, had been asked what sort of whiskey was most sought after; to which he had replied, If the people could get any other, they would not drink parliament whiskey. He was asked if he gave his haymakers what he Called parliament whiskey (meaning legal spirit); to which he replied, he would not give them that if he could get any other. Many of the inferences that had been drawn on this subject had been totally erroneous.

thought that the system would finally prove effectual in Donegal. Its discontinuance would be the greatest injury to those who had large distilleries.

Said, that the measure was most vexatious. It was not only operative when a still was found any where, but if a worm or any part of a still was found; and it was known that, if any quarrel or disagreement existed, a man had nothing to do but to go and put a still on the person's ground with whom he had quarrelled.

said, that the measure by no means justified the strong expressions that had been used against it. He deprecated the mode in which the gallant general had come forward at such a period of the session, without making a single statement in support of his motion. If in Donegal the measure had not operated, the rule should not be ex uno disce omnes.

said, if the question came to a division, he should vote for the repeal.

replied. It had been said, that he had no grounds for his motion. His grounds were—to prevent cruelty and oppression; and his arguments—that the Jaw provided punishment enough in fine, imprisonment, and transportation. He would pledge himself that every material statement contained in Mr. Chichester's book was correct. The gallant general defended the gentlemen of Donegal, and after giving notice of some farther proceeding in the next session, concluded by expressing his willingness to withdraw the motion at present.

The motion was then negatived.

wished to call the attention of the House to this correspondence, particularly to the letter of a Mr. Johnson to the commissioners of taxes, in which he describes himself as being the secretary to the committee for managing the election of the present members for Westmorland, He goes on to ask for certain returns of land tax, in which return Mr. Johnson tells the commissioners of taxes that lord Thanet's property need not be included. Now this was the letter of an electioneering agent to the commissioners of taxes, a person who never ought to have been allowed to approach the Tax office; yet to this letter, Mr. Winter, the secretary to the board of taxes, the next day returned a most courteous answer, recognizing him in his character of secretary to the committee for managing the election of the present members, and informing him that the returns for which he asked would be furnished to him by the assessors of the several districts. If, however, any should be wanting there the Tax office would furnish them. This was a most flagrant breach of the privileges of the House, and if notice was not taken of it by the proper quarter, he would himself move to bring the parties implicated to the bar of the House.

said, the whole of this correspondence was new to him, and he wished to have time to make inquiry before he gave any opinion upon it.

trusted that Monday would not be allowed to pass over without the right hon. gentleman's again mentioning the subject. It did indeed appear to him that there was a system of electioneering policy established in favour of the present members for Westmorland, and that the commissioners of taxes were parties to it. This was one of the grossest attacks upon the freedom of election, that he had ever witnessed, and he trusted the House would not pass it over without showing its sense of it by calling its, authors to the bar. The letter to which he had on a former night alluded, namely, that of Mr. Thompson, had turned out to be a real document, and not a fabrication, as some gentlemen had declared it to be in their opnion.

declared himself ignorant of the whole transaction.