rose to give to it his most decided opposition. The country had grown great and had flourished under the present system of law: where, then, was the necessity of altering it? Besides, the alteration proposed would be particularly disastrous to persons with small landed estates, and would absolutely ruin all those who had bought them ten years ago, when land was high, and when there was no objection to leaving part of the purchase money unpaid upon them. This bill might raise, but it could not lower, the present rate of interest; and as he felt more for the borrower than he did for the lender, he could do no less than move, as an amendment, that this bill be read a second time this day six months.

rose to second the amendment. The laws for the regulation of the interest of money, which it was the object of the bill to destroy, were, he said, in consistence with the whole of the English laws which had reference to employments in which chance was concerned. The same principle applied to insurances. In the preamble of the bill, there were no arguments in its favour. He thought it much better that the interest of money should be regulated by the present laws than, that all those salutary provisions should be swept away.

said, after the observations which had fallen from the hon. member who spoke last, he should be sorry that the bill should go to a division, without some explanation being afforded of the mistake he had fallen into. The hon. member had said, that the Usury Jaws were consistent with the laws of England. Now, the whole tendency of modern legislation, as of the ancientlaws, was, to give the greatest freedom to bargains, and, to all sorts of mercantile transactions. The greatest benefit that had been conferred upon the country by any administration for the last thirty years, was that which had resulted from the enlightened policy of the present administration, in breaking down the absurd restrictions with which commerce had been previously shackled. The hon. member had referred to insurances; and it certainly did surprise him, that any one should adduce a reason which would lead to a result so contrary to that which he aimed at. There was no law to prevent underwriters from taking any premium on a policy which they might agree on with the insured. The analogy of the Usury laws indeed, should lead them to fix certain rates of insurance, without reference to circumstances; as, for instance, that the premium to the West Indies should be 5 per cent, to the East 7, and so on, which should never be varied according to the vessel, or to the season, or to a state of war and peace. The opposition to this bill was dictated by an erroneous view of the interests of the borrowers of money; whereas it was evident, that the freedom of contract was as advantageous to the borrower as it was to the lender, in the same manner as the freedom in policies of insurance was beneficial to the underwriters and to the insured. What would their situation be if, according to the idea of the hon. member, the rate of premium were fixed, instead of varying, as it now did, from 1 to 50 per cent? He agreed that in the cases of contracts for lending money as in other contracts, they should be such as could bear to meet the public eye, and that fraud and deception should be punished; but this they would be under the common law. He entreated the House, therefore, to press forward this measure, as the season for passing it was peculiarly favourable, at a time when the ordinary rate of interest was at between three and four per cent, and thus much below the rate fixed by law. The country was much indebted to the hon. and learned serjeant, for his perseverance in urging forward this bill, and he hoped he would now reap the reward of it.

said, he should take leave to say a few words on the subject before the House, which was one of the moat important that could be agitated, especially to the landed interest. The measure now before them was, to sweep away the laws which had been sanctioned by the experience of years. During that time, the uniform practice of the government of this country had been to prevent extortion and usury, by enacting those laws which some individuals now wished to be repealed. This country, instead of being injured, had been greatly benefitted by the Usury laws. Since the period of the last act, that of queen Anne, there was no country in which capital had accumulated to so great an extent as it had done in England; and yet they were now called upon to repeal laws, which brought the whole capital of the country into the metropolis. If they were repealed, it ought not to be on mere theoretical grounds: some practical good should be pointed out as likely to be effected by the measure. He contended, that those laws had done no practical injury to the landed interest. In times of distress, it was true, they borrowed money at a great disadvantage. But, it should not be forgotten, that when they gave redeemable annuities, those annuities might, in time, be taken up. The persons who now lent money to the landed interest at 3½ per cent, would, if those laws were repealed, change their demand with every fluctuation. Now they would have four, now five, how six per cent. In short, there would be no certainty in the money market. If, in time of distress, the landed interest could borrow money at 5 per cent, what would become of the commercial interest? In proportion as the security they had to offer was worse than that afforded by the landed interest, would the lender demand a more exorbitant rate—not less, perhaps, than ten or twelve per cent. In fact, the mercantile and manufacturing interests would be reduced to the utmost distress, if those laws were repealed. Let the House also consider the situation in which the government would be placed. During the last war, whilst the mutiny at the Nore was raging, when the Bank Restriction act was passed, and when the public funds were under 50, no difficulty was experienced in borrowing money: but he was convinced, if those laws had not then existed, that government would not have been able to raise the money which was absolutely necessary to carry on the affairs of the nation. They would not have had that preference in the market which they ought always to have; and they would have been compelled to pay an interest of 10 or 12 per cent. If, therefore, the repeal of those laws was calculated to starve the merchant and manufacturer, and to beggar the government, the House ought to throw out this bill, and that, too, by such a majority as would induce the learned gentleman never again to bring it forward.

said, that the hon. baronet seemed to fear that the mercantile and manufacturing classes, and even the government itself, must suffer by the repeal of those laws. Now, without entering into much argument on those points, it might be enough to state, that the laws against usury had been done away all over Europe, and that no harm had occurred either to governments or to individuals; but, on the contrary, it was to be believed that the interest of all parties were much improved by that repeal. One or two circumstances had come under his own observation, which proved that those laws had occasioned the most destructive effects to families in this country, by compelling them to raise money by way of annuity. Money, like every other commodity, ought to be allowed to fetch its just value in the market. Now, if an individual wanted to borrow money, which, if these laws were not in existence, he might procure for seven per cent., he would be obliged, in his endeavour to evade those laws, to pay 13, 14, or even 15 per cent. The hon. baronet had only to refer to the evidence given before the committee, and there he would find those facts distinctly proved. The hon. baronet expressed some fears as to the situation in which the commercial body would be placed, if this bill passed. Now he (Mr. S.), as one of that body, must say, that he had not the slightest apprehension on the subject. He could solemnly assert, that he never had met a man for whose judgment he had any respect, who entertained a doubt on the question.

said, that the chief argument against the bill was, that the effect of the repeal of the usury laws would be, to raise the interest of money. Now, in Holland, there never had been any restraint on money dealings; and he could state from his own experience, as well as from history, that there was no country in Europe where the rate of interest had been and was so low as in the United Provinces. He hoped, therefore, that his majesty's government would countenance this measure, which was in perfect unison with the liberal course of policy they had recently adopted.

said, he had been a member of the committee to whom this subject was referred in 1818, and who had reported their sentiments to the House. The opinion he had formed in that committee he still entertained. Indeed, he had never varied from it. He need hardly say that it was entirely in unison with the object of the learned serjeant. He considered the Usury laws as only calculated to add to the difficulties of borrowing money, to increase litigation, and to encourage fraud.

said, that when this question was brought before the House last session he voted against the proposition, not because there was any advantage in the principle of the existing laws, against which, on the contrary, many arguments could be advanced; but because he was not prepared to say that the moment had arrived when parliament ought to repeal those laws. He did not think that the opposition to the measure was now so strong as it was last year; and if it were desirable at all that those laws should be altered, he conceived the present period was as good as could be selected.

said, it would be very difficult, he was aware, to defend those laws in point of principle; but, in point of practice, he must say that it would be dangerous, without a great deal more consideration, to alter those laws in a country where there was so general and so beneficial a distribution of capital, and where money was to be had at all times at a low rate of interest. If the learned gentleman with whom this measure originated thought, while government was in the market, that any change of the law would make the loan of money cheaper to individuals, he was very much mistaken. He believed the repeal of those laws would raise the price of money to government, instead of reducing it. Gentlemen seemed to suppose, that by carrying this measure, individuals would be saved from ruin, because they would not then be obliged to get into those annuity contracts under which so many families suffered: they believed that a complete end would be put to all ruinous money contracts. But it was utterly impossible to hope for any such result, unless, at the same time that those laws were repealed, they contrived to alter the conduct and temper of individuals. By repealing those laws they would facilitate the borrowing of money by extravagant persons, without conferring any advantage on the steady and industrious part of the community, whom they ought especially to protect. He was not on the committee—[The hon. member was here reminded that he was a member of the committee.] If he was on the committee, he had certainly forgotten the circumstance. He had, however, read the evidence; and if he had known that the learned serjeant's brat, which had been bandied about from session to session, was to have been taken up by government, he would have brought down that evidence, and proved that it did not bear out the view of those who supported this measure. No advantage had been pointed out that would at all warrant them in embarking on such a speculation. There was no country, not even Holland itself, in which wealth had so greatly in- creased as it had done in England, during the period when those laws were in operation.

certainly could not congratulate the hon. gentleman opposite on the strength of his memory, for he had undoubtedly been a member of the committee; and it was equally certain that he had attended it. It was scarcely necessary for him to make any observations on the objections which had been made to this measure, after what had fallen from hon. gentlemen opposite, and his right hon. friends near him. The hon. gentleman who seconded the amendment had fallen into a great mistake about the origin of the Usury laws. Much of his veneration for those laws seemed to be founded upon a notion of their great antiquity; but he would probably be surprised to learn, that the taking of interest for money at all was proscribed by our early statutes as being contrary to Christianity. This was the uniform language of our early statutes. It had been said by the hon. baronet opposite, that the landed interest would be borne down by this measure; that in ordinary times money might be readily obtained upon mortgage; and that in seasons of difficulty recourse might be had to the system of raising money by redeemable annuities. Undoubtedly redeemable annuities could be resorted to: they had, in point of fact, been resorted to; but at what rate of interest? Why, at the ruinous rate of 10, 12, 13, and 14 per cent., for two, three, or four lives. This was the remedy which the hon. baronet preferred; this was the ruinous expedient of which he was so much enamoured! Not only had this expedient been resorted to at a period of difficulty, but estates had been actually sold at a time when scarcely a purchaser could be found in the market. He was satisfied, that the repeal of the Usury laws would be so far from being injurious to the landed interest, that no class of the community would derive more essential benefit from that repeal than the agricultural class. The objections which had been made to the measure, on the ground of its being injurious to the commercial interest, were equally unfounded. As to the expedient of borrowing stock to replace it, it had been no less ruinous than that of resorting to redeemable annuities. An hon. friend near him had mentioned a case to him—and this was far from being a solitary instance—in which a person had lost 30 per cent by borrowing stock to re- place it. The object of his bill was, to place money contracts on the same footing as all other commercial transactions; to afford a full, fair, and open competition in the money market, and to allow persons to make their own bargains with respect to money, as they were at present allowed to make them with respect to all other commodities.

said, that, after the general concurrence of sentiment which seemed to prevail on this subject, it was scarcely necessary for him to trouble the House with any observations. He could not, however, forbear saying a few words on a subject of such importance, involving, as it undoubtedly did, a change in our laws of very considerable importance. But though it was a change of considerable importance, it was a change which would produce no immediate effect; and it was because it would produce no immediate effect, that he conceived this to be the proper time for legislating on the subject. They were not now legislating on the subject of fixing the value of money; and, perhaps, a more favourable opportunity of doing away with those laws had not occurred in the last half century. It had been said, that a vast accumulation of capital had taken place, notwithstanding the existence of these laws. The fact was, that the accumulation of capital had gone on increasing, because the Usury laws as far as capitalists and monied men were concerned, were wholly inoperative. The invasion of these laws was so easy, that the monied interest had never been affected by them. Not so, however, the agricultural interest; and it was not without surprise, therefore, that he found this measure most vehemently opposed by that very class of the community, which, above all others, it was most calculated to benefit—he meant the country gentlemen. He really hoped, if it were only for the advantage of hearing what could be urged against this measure and that an opportunity might be afforded of removing the prejudices which were entertained against it, that this bill would be suffered to go further. Even if it were not possible to remove the prejudices of the country gentlemen, and to satisfy them that the measure was calculated to promote their interests, nothing would be more easy, when this bill came into the committee, than to restrict its operation to all classes of the community, except the agricultural; so that it might not ex- tend to the loan of money upon mortgages. With respect to the interests of the merchant and the manufacturer, there could be no doubt of the utility of the repeal of these laws. It was equally certain, that the landed interest would be relieved, even above all other classes, by this measure; but, if they could not be persuaded of it, they might be exempted from its operation. What was the predicament in which the landed interest stood, during the whole of the last war, by the effect of the existing laws? While these laws were wholly inoperative upon capitalists, who could evade them, and upon the government who were borrowing at an usurious interest during the whole progress of the war, the landed proprietor could never raise a sixpence except by the most desperate usury, and while the rate of interest passed from 5 per cent to 5½ or 6 per cent with respect to other capital, it passed at once from 5 to 14 per cent with respect to landed security. The country gentlemen, therefore, were, in fact, more interested in the repeal of this measure, than any other class of the community.

said, the hon. member for Wareham had asserted that, the policy of this measure was not borne out by the evidence given before the committee. Now, he had within these few days referred to that evidence, and he begged leave to differ entirely from the opinion of the hon. member. He should give his cordial support to a measure, which he believed to be founded on the soundest principles of commercial policy, and in the expediency of which the most enlightened statesmen, as well as practical men, had equally concurred. He need only refer to such names as those of the late sir Samuel Romilly, the late Mr. Ricardo, Mr. Sugden, and Mr. Rothschild.

expressed his entire concurrence in the policy of the measure.

considered the Usury laws injurious to all classes of the community; but more especially to the agricultural interest.

requested to be informed of the circumstances under which Mr. Vincent, after the death of the late deputy remembrancer, Mr. Steele, had been appointed to this office.

said, that Mr. Vincent's appointment was temporary. The law which came into operation at the death of Mr. Steele, did not provide for the abolition of the office of deputy remembrancer, or fix the manner in which the duties of that office should henceforward be performed. It only required that, whenever that event took place, the lords of the Treasury should determine what should be the future duties of the office, and what should be the extent of the emolument arising from it. The lords of the Treasury, accordingly, upon the death of Mr. Steele, lost no time in calling upon the barons of the Exchequer and on the chancellor of the Exchequer, to report to them as to the nature of the office; but the fact was, that the duties of it, from the nature and constitution of the Exchequer, were absolutely necessary to be continued until some new system could be arranged; and it was not very easy to decide by what system the business would be best done, and with least expense to the public. Pending this inquiry, however, Mr. Vincent had been appointed. He was required himself to perform the duties of the place, and allowed no deputy; and he was directed to receive the accustomed fees for the present, not keeping them for himself, but paying them into the consolidated fund; the lords of the Treasury of course reserving to themselves the power of giving him an adequate compensation for his labour. For himself, he was most anxious to regulate the office in that way which should be most conducive to the public service; and, whatever difficulty there might be in determining the precise mode in which the necessary duties should be executed, there could be no doubt they would be performed at a considerably less expense than they had been heretofore.

professed himself satisfied with the explanation, and trusted that the new arrangement would amount to a complete remodelling of the Exchequer. It was high time that the country should get rid of a system of keeping accounts so cumbrous and so inefficient, that it might almost disgrace a tribe of Indian savages.

rose to present a petition connected with the charges for the navy. The petitioner was a gentleman of the name of Burridge, who had lately written upon the subject of "Dry Rot;" and the petition stated very extensive injury accruing of late years from that disease to our shipping; insomuch, that nearly one-half the vessels in the navy were more or less visited by it; and several ships, the Lord Nelson, the Lord Howe, the Queen Charlotte, and others, had lately, upon a survey, been found to be entirely destroyed. The petitioner added, that it would appear, upon calculation, that, owing to this disease, the number of sea-worthy ships which at present composed our navy, was smaller than that which we had maintained in the year 1793; and prayed that the board of admiralty would take means to repress the evil. He (Mr. Hume) was desirous to know what the admiralty was prepared to do in this matter, which seemed to him to be one of the very highest importance. It was quite certain, that the English oak had not been used formerly to decay, as it did now. As for the coal tar, which had been supposed a remedy, he understood that it did nothing but mischief; it injured the health of the men, and did no good to the timber. He was informed that ships built in America, from wood foiled at the season when the sap was not in the tree, were not subject to dry rot; or at least, not in the same degree with those built by us, from wood felled when the sap was in it. Whatever might be the merits of the petition, he thought there could be no doubt that the subject was one which demanded the fullest attention and discussion.

said, he would put it to the hon. member, whether this was a convenient moment for presenting such a petition.

said, he had no wish whatever to interfere with other business; and would therefore present the petition upon another occasion.

rose, to bring forward the Navy Estimates for the present year. He said, that after the great reductions which had already taken place in our naval department, he did not apprehend that any further ones were likely to be proposed. The vote called for this year was about 320,000l. more than had been taken last, because it was necessary to make some small addition to our present force. He anticipated no objection to this from the gentlemen on the other side, because their complaint for some time had been rather that our naval establishment was too low. The unsettled state of some parts of the world to which the commerce of England was now, with every prospect of advantage, extending itself, would fully account for the trifling additional expense which was contemplated; and in addition to this consideration, there was the probability that the piratical depredations in the West Indies, which now were entirely stopped, would recommence if our strength in that quarter was withdrawn; and the necessity for maintaining our power in the Mediterranean, as long as the present disputes existed between Turkey and her Greek dependencies. With respect to the petition which had been presented by the hon. member for Aberdeen, the subject was already under the consideration of the board of admiralty, who were not blind to its importance. The fact was, in some measure, that from the great exigencies of the late war, it had been found necessary to build ships without those precautions which would have been used under circumstances of full leisure. Timber had been used, in many cases, which was not sufficiently seasoned. We were now, however, using every means to avoid the evil to which the hon. member had alluded. Ships were built under cover; the timber employed was perfectly dry; and the coal-tar—as to the harmlessness of which he had understood the hon. member to be satisfied—was made use of, and, as was believed, with good effect. Independent of these precautions, an experiment was now making, whether the dry rot might not be prevented by immersing the wood in salt water before it was worked up; and he begged to state, that the comptroller of the navy, whose information upon the matter was much better than his own, would be fully prepared to answer, if necessary, all the allegations in the hon. member for Aberdeen's petition. The hon. baronet concluded by stating, that the extra charge of 320,000l. incurred, was to meet the cost of 4,000 additional seamen (making our establishment, from 25,000 men, 29,000, including a force of 9,000 royal marines), together with certain expenses arising out of the increased price of provisions; and by moving "That a sum not exceeding 885,950l. be granted for wages of the said 29,000 for 13 lunar months, at the rate of 2l. 7s. per man per month."

wished to put a question with respect to the arrangements respecting the preventive service, which had established a sort of gendarmerie upon our shores. The high duties imposed in time of war were, now that France and England were at peace, operating as such a bounty upon contraband trade as no vigilance could withstand, and producing actually a regular guerilla warfare between the government force and the smugglers. We had now no fewer than 1,700 men employed in the preventive service, patrolling upon our coast. He wished also to know if, in case of any addition being made to the force appointed to the coast blockade, the additional forces would be put under the same commands as at present. There was one ship of war stationed in the Downs to watch over a line of coast so extensive, that the officer who there held control was either on horseback or in the boat, night and day continually, for weeks together. This he might do from his zeal and anxiety to complete a system of his own creation; but it was too much for the country to receive from the service of any one man. His only object, however, in rising, was, to know if any, and what portion of this additional force was to be put under the command of the gallant officer to whom he had alluded.

said, that it certainly was the intention of government to continue the system of the preventive service as at present established, which, notwithstanding the remarks of the hon. member, had operated with most complete success. There had been one violent and bloody affray upon the coast of Kent, which had been much dwelt on by the opponents of the system; but it was merely the last desperate effort of the smugglers in that part, to defend their unlawful occupation against the encroachments of the preventive service. It was very true that captain M'Culloch had his whole heart in the success of the system, of which he was the contriver, and that his duties were of a very weighty kind, his command reaching in extent from Chichester, westward, to the Isle of Sheppy, eastward. Of the additional force now asked for, 630 seamen were to be placed under the superintendence and direction of that officer. The narrowness of the channel in this division made the running of spirits more easy than in other places. But he could safely say, that the greater part of the smuggling now carried on took place without the limits of the coast blockade. He admitted, that the high duties on spirits, rendered necessary by the large amount of taxes which must, of necessity be raised, offered a great inducement for smuggling, and therefore the preventive service naturally operated less effectively in those parts of the coast which offered the greatest facilities for the introduction of spirits.

doubted the last proposition of the gallant officer, that the amount of taxes could be augmented by such enormous duties on foreign spirits. And whether the surest mode of augmentation would not be considerably to reduce the duties; which would also enable them to get rid of that most expensive system of coast-blockade. By returns for which he had moved last session, it appeared that the expense was no less than 600,000l. in the collection of that branch of the revenue only. It was his intention, before long, to show how the revenue might be benefited, and the establishment reduced, by the adoption of a more reasonable policy. It was in vain to look for the extinction of smuggling to the preventive service. Those who violated the laws by the introduction of contraband goods considered that there was no moral offence; consequently there was no direct dread of ignominy in the punishments which they had to fear. There was nothing so prolific of crime (the laws concerning poachers always excepted) as the laws which went to the prevention of smuggling. As to the interests of the revenue, he pledged himself on a future day to prove that they were materially injured by the continuance of the present high duties.

said, he was not satisfied with the addition of the navy, nor did he like the mode in which the accounts were laid before the House. It was impossible to choose any method in which mischief would be more likely to arise, than the combining of the preventive service, with the regular means of defence for the country. The House was kept from knowing the limits of either branch of the service; and if it were not so, it was next to impossible to ascertain the expense of collecting the revenue, and consequently, they were without the power of deliberat- ing upon the propriety of keeping up particular kinds of duties: they were proceeding altogether upon an erroneous principle. Formerly the naval estimates were kept entirely distinct from the charges for collecting the revenue. The naval officers on their different stations were at hand, and frequently assisted in the caption of smugglers. It was no advantage to the character of English seamen to be identified with the collectors of the revenue: it was calculated to lower, rather than improve them. They would be anxious, for the sake of the additional pay and the milder kind of discipline, to get into that line of the service. He was anxious the House should know what was required for the defence of the country, and the exact force that was employed in the prevention of smuggling? and he should also be glad to have specified the expense attending the coasts of Scotland and Ireland, and whether it was to continue the same or to be reduced. He should be glad to hear it stated why it was necessary in the present year, to maintain a navy of 29,000 men. He remembered very well that, in the year 1817 or 1818, when ministers were urged to reduce the then existing establishment, a noble lord, now no more, used to say, "Recollect the situation in which we are placed: we cannot come back to the peace establishment of 1814, the affairs of the country are not yet settled;" but he also remembered that the noble lord invariably held out the prospect that, when that tranquillity should be established which he expected would have been the result of his measures, then a considerable reduction would be made; and now he could see no reason why this augmentation should take place. Last year the House consented to an increase of 4,000 men, in consequence of the situation in which the country was supposed to be placed. At that time a confidence was reposed in ministers, because no one could say how soon hostilities might have been commenced; the House were then ignorant of the intentions of ministers, and it was impossible to say how soon the country might be called upon to arm. But now things were quite different. Peace had been restored in Spain. The South American provinces were likely to remain undisturbed and unmolested. The manifesto of the president of the United States has set that question at rest. Thanks to him for that—but not to us. If we had had the manliness to speak out, much that had passed would have been prevented. But we were afraid to speak out: we were afraid of the Holy Alliance, who seemed determined to extend their arbitrary power over all the countries of Europe. But, if we were afraid to speak out our opinions and, if ministers had made up their minds that come what may, the interests of the country must be attended to; and, if they were still of opinion, that those interests were best consulted by preserving peace, then he would say, that unless the government were in possession of some information (and the House had seen how deficient they had sometimes been in that respect) which they had not disclosed, there could be no necessity whatever for maintaining such a fleet. If, indeed, they had any such information, let them speak out boldly, and not talk of the paltry necessity of a coast blockade. He was as anxious as any man to see our navy on a respectable footing; but before it was further augmented, he should like to hear some good reason assigned. It was irreconcileable in those who had proclaimed the prosperous state of the country, and the probability of that prosperity not being disturbed, to call for this augmentation of men. He considered it a wise policy to have preserved peace, and he wished, by husbanding our resources, to place the country in a condition best calculated to secure the continuance of peace, or to vindicate its interests and character, in the event of its being attacked by any foreign power. What motive, what apprehension, justified the proposed increase, he was at a loss to discover; as yet no reason had been given by those who proposed it. England at this moment had more ships and more men employed in her navy, than all the other powers of the world could, if united, furnish. Surely, then, the country had a right to know upon what grounds an increased expenditure, to such a considerable amount, was called for. The fact was, that from the system lately carried into effect in the management of the navy, parliament might pass resolutions, and the Board of Admiralty might issue orders, but it was impossible to get men. That difficulty had been felt very considerably for some time past; and, in consequence, ships commissioned for foreign service, had been detained for weeks, not having been able to obtain their complement of seamen. What was the reason of this dis- inclination to enter a service once the pride and boast of the British people? He was convinced that it proceeded from the regulations that had recently been acted upon with regard to that branch of the public service. By the tendency of those regulations seamen found themselves shut out from even the hope of promotion; no matter how distinguished and exemplary their services. All hope and energy was destroyed in that class of officers, from whom formerly our most experienced, and most valuable officers were taken. It was, however, but fair to say, that some deviation had, within the last three months, taken place on that head, and that some old officers had been appointed to ships. But the principle must be altogether changed, if the character of our navy was to be maintained. We must get rid altogether of that radical evil, which confined promotion to rank and influence. It was formerly the pride and the boast of every man who entered the navy, that he had open to him all the gradations of promotion—that talent and service were sure to conduct to reward and distinction. We were wont to contrast the character of our service with those of France and Spain, where no man was promoted unless he could boast high connexions at court, or could display a certain number of quarterings on his escutcheon. And yet, that very principle of exclusion which was then so much deprecated, was now acted upon, and constituted the radical defect in the management of our navy. Would it be believed that there were actually Orders in Council existing at this moment, which disqualified certain classes of officers from ever looking to promotion? He held a copy of one of them in his hand, and before he read it, he took upon himself to say, that if twelve naval officers were chosen by lot out of 500 in our service, eleven out of that twelve would declare, that such a principle of management must speedily bring utter ruin to that valuable branch of service. The order to which he alluded, was dated the 19th of January 1803. It was provided by that order, that no master or other warrant officer should look forward to promotion beyond that grade, with the exception of the schoolmaster. It was most strange that the schoolmaster, a man from his pursuits not devoted to the duties of a sailor, was the person in whose favour the exception was made, while masters, quarter-masters, and seamen, expert and conversant with all the necessary qualifications, were excluded. For them, no matter what was the nature of their deserts or services, there was no hope; and yet that had not been the opinion or the practice of some of the most distinguished officers in that branch of service. What had been the conduct of lord Howe with regard to that description of officers? That meritorious and highly distinguished commander actually promoted his master, on the victory of June, 1794, acknowledging that the success of the action was more to be attributed to the master than to himself. In what a situation should we find ourselves, if, by acting on a principle of exclusion, except where rank and connexion interposed, we closed every prospect of bettering their condition, and of obtaining promotion in the profession to which they had devoted themselves, to the great body of British seamen! It had been the subject of deep regret with the country at large, that a principle so opposed to those proud feelings which, in former times, had given an impulse to our naval arms, was so generally brought into practice. These were the practices which demanded the consideration of parliament, and the reform of which would give greater efficiency to our naval force, than any resolutions which went to increase the numerical amount. Remove those radical defects, and with 20,000 seamen, well officered, and the corresponding number of ships, the country would have an efficient navy, fitted for any exigency. He believed, that that principle of exclusion, as affecting warrant officers, was confined to the naval service, and was not acted upon in the army. Was there any bar to a serjeant being made a commissioned officer? He understood there was none; and that it was the practice, when such a person signally distinguished himself, to promote him. Upon what principle, then, was the warrant officer in the navy to have all hopes of preferment shut out, while promotion was open to military non-commissioned officers? These were considerations which must be brought before that House, until a complete change in the system was effected. Were that change effected, and proper advantages held out to seamen, in place of difficulty in making up the complement of men, numbers would flock to the standard of that first arm of our defence, whenever the public exigencies required an increase. But administered as it new was, with their hopes and expectations paralysed, the navy was unhappily looked upon as a kind of forlorn hope. Many causes contributed to produce that impression: first, the abominable system of being compelled to serve for life; next, that of impressment, the remembrance of the dreadful effects of which (though not acted upon in peace) it was impossible to efface. Then came the system of discipline, which placed at the discretiun of unfledged boys, the power of flogging any man they pleased, without the intervention of a court-martial. He felt quite aware of the difficulty that attended the discussion of such a question; but, whatever were the difficulties, it would become the duty of that House to grapple with them. He must repeat, that he saw no ground for the proposed increase; and though he knew that many members of that House (himself equally prepossessed) felt a strong disinclination to reduce such a favourite branch of service; yet, under all the circumstances, though he stood alone, he would, unless good reasons were assigned, divide the House. Better at once agree to a naval war establishment, than to go on from year to year, in passing resolutions for a progressive augmentation. He should therefore meet the proposition with an Amendment, that 25,000 men be substituted for the 29,000 proposed, in the grant before the committee.

observed, in reference to the statement of the hon. member for Aberdeen, that in the year 1817, his majesty's ministers had held out the hope of still further reduction in the naval branch, he could positively say the hon. member was mistaken. Indeed, there was no sentiment more general in that House, and with the gentlemen on the other side, who generally voted with the hon. member, than the apprehension that at that period the naval force was reduced lower than the public service warranted. It was, in fact, reduced below the state in which it stood at the hon. gentleman's favourite epoch, the year 1792. The hon. gentleman had assumed, that no reason had or could be assigned for the augmentation at present proposed, except the demands of the coast blockade. Now, it was in the recollection of the committee, that in proposing the resolution, he had adverted to the necessity of such an augmentation, from the state of affairs which, without any prospect of hostilities on our part, naturally grew out of the condition of the South American continent, our own colonies in the West Indies, and the actual war waging between Greece and Turkey. It was impossible for so formidable a power as Great Britain to allow the quarrels arising between inferior belligerents to interrupt her merchandise in the other hemisphere; and as large a force as the whole of the addition now asked, would be less than was required to restrain the petty piracies within the West-India seas. The difficulty of getting men for the ships, he was happy to inform the hon. member, was only imaginary—no ship had suffered any considerable delay on that account. As to the impressment which bound men to the service for life, the hon. member must be ignorant of the regulation which limited the period of service, in time of peace, to three years. When the exigencies of the state required it, men must be compelled to serve in the navy. In referring to the orders in council, the hon. member had neglected to quote a very important exception, which opened the line of promotion to masters who should distinguish themselves. The fact was, that no class of naval officers was so valuable as the masters, and therefore all that could be done in the fair regulations of the service, was done to retain them in their situations; but this was not without duly warning them, that in accepting the master's warrant, they excluded themselves from the direct line of promotion. The rules of the service gave as much facility to a foremast-man to advance himself as ever. As to unfledged boys enjoying too much power in the service, the present regulations did away all grounds for any such complaint. No midshipman could pass for lieutenant, unless he was nineteen years of age; and no officer could obtain a captain's commission unless he had served two years as lieutenant. This was all that he thought it necessary to say at present. If the hon. member chose to make the other matters of his speech the subject of a specific motion, of course he was at liberty so to do; but, after the triumphant answer which had been given to him in the course of last session by his gallant friend behind him (sir G. Cockburn), it was not very likely that he would return to the attack. [Cheers].

said, that if those cheers were intended to signalize the triumph of the gallant officer over his hon. friend, that opinion was allowable to those who thought with the gallant officer; but if they went beyond that, and presumed that the House or the service would be satisfied, he could assure them, from the little experience he had had, that no speech could be more unsatisfactory to those who were chiefly interested; namely, the officers of the navy. He was aware that the present regulations prevented raw boys from the indiscreet exercise of power, as commanders, in a greater degree than before, and he believed that the condition of the service was a thousand times better than ever it had been; but still there was much to correct, especially in regard to the principle upon which appointments were at present obtained. He could not, however, altogether agree with his hon. friend, that there was no cause of dread, and no reason for any alteration in our naval equipments, arising from the unsettled situation of the World. On the contrary, it appeared to him, that the political horizon was full of signs and indications of approaching danger. He was therefore willing to leave the naval preparations of the country to the discretion of ministers, as he had all his life approached that subject with the greatest delicacy and caution.

said, he would not appeal to either of the hon. members, to know whether the speech which he had had the honour of making to the House in the course of last session was satisfactory or not to the officers in the service. There were several able and experienced officers in the House: if they were prepared to say, that there was any thing in the remarks which he had then made which was disagreeable to the service generally, let them get up and assert it manfully. He himself was intimate with some officers of the service, and probably had had as much experience to guide him, as to the general opinion of what he then said, as either of the hon. members. What he had then advanced, he now repeated; namely, that while the road of promotion was kept open to merit and enterprise, however obscure the station and origin of the parties, the navy would feel no jealousy whatever at seeing persons of rank and condition promoted among them. Let not the committee believe that the employment of officers of high rank and connexions was the source of any mean or undue jealousy in that service. On the contrary, the navy felt proud in having such men in the profession—they felt that it re-acted on all the members of the service. It was gratifying, it was useful, to have naval officers in that House [a laugh, and hear, hear!]. Never was the British navy in a higher state of efficiency than it was at that moment. Never were our ships, with reference to a peace establishment, better manned. Never were our officers more capable of sustaining and extending its character and its glory; never were more pains taken that men in command should possess the qualifications that fitted them for an able discharge of their duties. There was a mischievous practice of those good old times to which the hon. member alluded, which now existed no longer, of boys in their mothers drawing-rooms being put on a ship's books, and thus serving their time without ever being at sea. It was in the memory of many persons, that in the American war, we had post-captains of seventeen years of age; but now no man could be made post till he was of proper age. Then it was in the power of an admiral to make his son, or his nephew, a lieutenant at sixteen or seventeen years of age; but now there was a difficult examination to go through, and if the candidate was not sufficiently skilled in navigation to sail the ship without the assistance of the master, he could not be a made lieutenant. With regard to the masters, of the impediments to whose promotion the hon. member complained, it was to be observed, that no other officer could become so at once; a lieutenant could not be made, nor could pursers or surgeons attain their respective ranks, without going through the previous steps in the royal navy; but a master, if he had sailed in a merchant ship and was competent, might be made a master at once; and on that account it was thought but just that to that rank he should be restricted, unless he distinguished himself. With respect to discipline, the hon. member should not mislead the House by asserting that boys might flog the men; that power was in the hands of the captain only; and as it was a power necessary, the House would see that it could not be lodged in more proper hands. When the committee bore in mind the number and the manner in which men were congregated on board ships, and the positive necessity of enforcing obedience and regularity, they would at once feel that such a power must be lodged somewhere, and they would find, that every vigilance was exerted to prevent any abuse.

supported the resolution.

stated, that whether he looked to the assurances of the Speech from the throne, which held out hopes of the continuance of peace with foreign powers, or to the states of South America, now assuming an organised form of government, and therefore likely to be relieved from those disputes with neutrals, in which infant communities struggling for freedom were likely to be involved, he saw no ground for the proposed augmentation. Spain, without the assistance of a foreign power, could not renew war in South America. Our commercial intercourse, which had perhaps in the disturbance of revolution suffered, was now to be superintended by consuls, sent out for that special service. The natural expectation was, therefore, that the interference of naval officers would not be necessary as heretofore. What reason, therefore, existed for such an increase? The finance committee, whose reports were on the table, never contemplated a naval peace establishment above 19,000 men.

asked, why ministers had allowed six British ships of war to remain in the Tagus, doing nothing, while there was only one at Lima?—Let the Board of Admiralty answer that. What cause was there at present for an extension of our naval force in South America? While the South American colonies were in confusion, and privateers were fitted out from those colonies, to attack the trade of all countries—then, where were our ships? Then, indeed, there might have been some cause for apprehension; but then, no efforts were made. Now, that those states were independent;—now that their independence was acknowledged to a certain degree, what fear could there be of their ships meddling with our trade at sea? As to the question, respecting the promotion of masters in the navy, he readily admitted, that if they were not qualified, they ought not to be promoted, and allowed to take the situation of lieutenants. But the order in council to which he had alluded, declared that they were not eligible even to be examined. If there was an order in council which stated that if masters were meritorious they should be promoted, let the gallant officer produce it, and he would not say another word on the subject. In all that he had said, his only object had been to uphold the navy, by advising that pre-eminent merit should always meet with its reward; which, if matters continued to be conducted as they had lately been conducted, it would not do. He had not met with a single naval officer who was not of opinion with himself respecting it. He begged the hon. baronet to put the question to any naval officers except those who were looking out for personal advantages; and he would soon ascertain the impression that had been made upon the navy, by what had fallen from the hon. baronet last session, respecting the expediency of promoting young men of rank and family. The general belief certainly was, that the hon. baronet had said, that when a young man of rank and family left the comforts of his home, and engaged in all the fag of the naval service, government were bound to promote him. If the gallant officer had said, that a certain proportion of such persons ought to be promoted, he (Mr. H.) would not object to it; but he could show that a much greater than the proper proportion had been so promoted. He thought that he proved himself the best friend to the administration, when he pointed out what appeared to him to be abuses, in order that they might either be explained or corrected. To return, however, to the main question. Nothing that had fallen from any hon. member had altered his opinion with respect to it. His majesty had told parliament, in the speech from the throne, that there never was a greater prospect of continued tranquillity; that all the foreign relations with this country appeared to be of the most amicable character. Why, then, was there an increase of 4,000 men in the proposed grant? He would take the sense of the House on the resolution; convinced as he was, that while it was our duty to maintain an adequate navy, it was also our duty to abstain from extravagant expenditure, and to husband our resources until the arrival of a time when we might be required to avail ourselves of them to their fullest extent.

wished still more particularly to deny the bold misrepresentation which had been made of the opinions which he had delivered in the last session. What he had most distinctly stated was, not that every young nobleman, or other man of family, ought to be promoted such an assertion would have been most absurd. The whole of his argument had been, that if it were proved that sufficient attention was paid to merit and service, the navy would not be jealous at seeing men of rank and family not only in their profession, but get on in it. As to the advice given him by the hon. gentleman, not to listen to those naval officers about him, who, expressed themselves satisfied with the proceedings of the naval administration, he might return that advice, and recommend the hon. gentleman, not to listen to those naval officers by whom he was addressed, and who, he might depend upon it, were, on the other hand, dissatisfied. He repeated, that, what he had said last session had been most boldly misrepresented, and he confidently appealed on the subject to the hon. members who had heard him.

confirmed the accuracy of what had just fallen from his hon. and gallant friend. His hon. and gallant friend had never said—no man in his senses ever could think of saying—that the claim of individuals of rank and family to promotion in the naval service was a matter of course. His hon. and gallant friend had said nothing like it. The substance of what his hon. and gallant friend had last session said was, that it was for the good of the naval service, that it was for the good of the whole profession, and even that it was for the I good of that part of the profession which bad nothing but its services to depend; upon, that its general respectability should be maintained by a due mixture in it of men distinguished by birth as well as by service; and that, provided a due proportion of promotion was given to merit and service, those who by their merit and service had earned that promotion, would look without grudging on the promotion of the others. And why? Because the character of every individual in the service materially depended on the general character of the service. In the naval service, as, happily in all classes in England, eminence must be combined of self-created merit, with original claims. The observation of his hon. and gallant friend had been, not that an invidious preference ought to be held out to induce young men of rank and family to enter the navy; but that, without some promise of reward, it could not be expected that they would leave the ease and indulgence of their homes, and that they could be allured to do so only by such a partial expectation of promotion, as would at the same time not be inconsistent with the just expectations of those, whose only hope of distinction arose from their merit and services. Some just excitement ought to be resorted to, to obtain the co-operation of those who, instead of injuring the navy by causing a proscription of talent and services, were the cause of a great good, by the sentiment which they diffused throughout it, and by rendering it a profession not only of men of gallantry and of skill, but of gentlemen. With regard to what had fallen from the hon. member for Aberdeen, respecting the inexpediency of any increase of our naval force, at a time when his majesty, in his speech from the throne, had expressed himself so strongly as to the probability of the continuance of peace, he begged to say a few words. Undoubtedly, there never was a time in which his majesty's government were more thoroughly justified, by the assurances of our foreign relations, in looking for a continuance of peace than the present moment. But it was equally true, that there never was a time in which, so many points of importance were agitated; and in which it became the British government more vigilantly to take care that the continuance of peace should depend, not only on the dispositions we experienced, and on the assurances we received, on the part of foreign countries, but on the conviction impressed on all parts of the world, that we were able and ready to maintain our rights by war. It was impossible to look at the three great naval stations; he meant the Mediterranean, the West Indies, and now South America, and to contemplate the possible occurrence of events which might render a vigorous interference on our part necessary, and not be convinced, not only that it was the duty of the Admiralty to, take care, that, in that event, the naval force of England on those stations should be equal to that of any other nation, friendly or otherwise; but that it might be necessary to provide means, by which the naval force of this country, on any of those stations, should outweigh that of any other nation; and, for that purpose, that there should be other stations from, which additional strength might be at pleasure derived. If any person would calculate the strength which would be necessary to meet the demands to which he had alluded, in the event of their occurrence, that person would find, that the proposed vote was not only not beyond that necessity, but that its limited nature afforded abundant proof, that the state of the world gave his majesty's government additional confidence in the continuance of peace; without which confidence such a proposition would be insufficient.

observed, that after what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, he would not press his amendment to a division.

rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to compel, as far as was possible, the residence of the clergy of Ireland upon their benefices. He did not think it necessary upon this occasion to detain the House very long by explaining the particulars of the measure which he proposed. No one would deny that the residence of the clergy was, in all countries, beneficial to the inhabitants; but it was obvious, that the practice was still more necessary in Ireland, because the greater the difficulties under which that country laboured, the more requisite was it that a vigilant attention should be paid to the wants of its inhabitants. There was another point of view in which the residence of the Irish clergy seemed no less important; not only were they called upon to perform the offices of religion, but, in consequence of the absence of the gentry, they were required to minister to other than the spiritual wants of the people. The object of the bill which he proposed to introduce was, to effect this. In some cases he was aware that the residence must be dispensed with. These were either when the incumbents were compelled to reside on other parts of their benefices, or where the infirmities of nature caused their absence. He proposed to limit these cases to such as were strictly unavoidable; and to take care that an adequate provision should always be made for the administration of the incumbent's duties. By an adequate provision, he not only meant that persons should be employed, who should be duly qualified, by their moral character and acquirements, to be ministers of religion, but that their stipends should be suitable to the duties they would be expected to perform. He would shortly state, that the form of the bill would be in most respects similar to the existing law on the same subject in England. It would con- siderably narrow the grounds upon which a plea of exemption could be allowed, and provide that the stipends of the curates should be proportioned to the value of the benefices, and to the extent of the population under their care. The House would probably excuse him, from stating seriatim, the several provisions of the bill, and he thought he should best consult its convenience, by moving for leave to bring in a bill "to amend the laws for enforcing the residence of Spiritual persons on their Benefices."

expressed his readiness to concur in any measure which should be calculated to carry into effect the object of the right hon. gentleman, and he thought the best means of accomplishing that object would be by preventing the beneficed clergy from holding pluralities. There were instances in which clergymen, already holding five, or six, and even ten benefices, had obtained faculties by which they were permitted to unite to those benefices, three or four more parishes. By a reference to the episcopal returns, it would be found that lord Clifford, in the deanery of Armagh, held four parishes, in which duty was performed, and that he was in possession of 388 acres of glebe; he held also four other parishes, and in right of them 297 acres of glebe; but, in these latter parishes, no duty was performed. There was also another living in another diocess, consisting of five parishes, in none of which there was a glebe house, although there were 240 acres of glebe land. In the diocess of Clogher there was enjoyed in right of a living, 1,300 acres of glebe land, though there was no glebe house; and in that of Meath, five vicarages, containing 2,600 acres were in the same situation. The only way, he thought, of procuring the residence of the clergy would be by doing away with these monstrous pluralities, as he would call them, The law, as it stood upon the Irish Statute-book, prevented the bishops who were inclined to do so, from dissolving these unions. The bishop of Cloyne had publicly expressed his regret, that he was prevented from doing so by the act of the 21st of Geo. 2nd, which forbad such dissolutions, that the value of ecclesiastical dignities might not be diminished.

expressed a hope, that in the event of the bill in question being passed into a law, care would be taken to insert a clause depriving the bishops of the power of granting faculties. By such a regulation, the right hon. secretary might do some good; but, so long as they went on in the present course, all they could do was to keep patching and piecing a system which must eventually crumble and fall to pieces. He felt satisfied that nothing effectual could be done, until they new-modelled the whole church system in Ireland: until they reduced the sums paid to the clergy at least by one-fourth, nothing effectual could be done. Let them look to the history of this country, and they would find what had been done. More acts of parliament had been passed in this country, for the purpose of regulating the clergy, than had been passed with reference to any other public body of men. He used the words "public body," because he considered the clergy to be public servants. He repeated, that many acts of parliament had been passed, and much trouble had been taken, in order to make them do their duty, but without effect. In Ireland it was useless to introduce new regulations, unless they took some such steps as had been already pointed out.

said, he felt bound to object to any interference with church property in Ireland. That property ought to be held as sacred, as the church property of England, and was entitled to equal protection. If once they meddled with the one, inroads would soon be made upon the other also. He wished also to protest against insinuations which had been thrown out, that the Irish clergy did not do their duty. If gentlemen looked about them, they would find that the Irish clergy did their duty in a most exemplary manner. They were assailed on all sides, but still they persevered in one undeviating, straight-forward course. Let any man look to the Irish clergy, either as ministers of the gospel, as magistrates, or as citizens, and, in each capacity, he would have reason to praise their moral and upright conduct. It might so happen, that a parish was neglected, or that an union existed which ought to be dissolved; but the right hon. baronet must be aware, that in a great many instances the union of parishes had become indispensable; as it was found impossible to procure an attendance at the churches which would be established by a subdivision. This, however, was a matter which had not escaped the attention of the bishops of Ireland. They had found it necessary, in some in- stances, to dissolve unions; and, no doubt, they would continue their inquiries as far as they were found necessary. But he stated at once, and broadly, that it would be impossible to dissolve all those unions.

said, that the Bill about to be introduced was of vital importance to Ireland; its object being to ensure, the permanent residence of competent persons in the different parochial districts. He deprecated the alterations proposed by gentlemen on the other side—alterations which, if once introduced into the sister country, would soon extend themselves to England, and at once create a revolution in the whole Church property of both countries. He did not pretend to deny that there existed abuses which required amendment, but then these abuses must be approached, not rudely, but cautiously; the alterations called for, must be made by a delicate hand; they must be effected, not suddenly, but slowly, and with the utmost circumspection.

said, he had good reason to believe, that in Ireland many persons frequented Roman Catholic chapels, and ultimately became Roman Catholics, solely because they had no Protestant churches to go to. He had himself seen in Ireland the ruins of many churches, which had been allowed to go to decay, in consequence of this union of parishes. He hoped something would be done to remedy the evils caused by these unions, and by other parts of the existing system in Ireland.

said, he felt it necessary to object to the two points dwelt upon by the hon. Gentlemen opposite; namely the, reduction of pluralities, and the interference with the Church establishment of Ireland. The question with respect to the church livings in Ireland had been so ably supported and opposed elsewhere, that it was unnecessary to discuss it on that occasion. With respect to the other evil alluded to, he was happy to state that the subject had not escaped the primate of Ireland, who fully felt the inconvenience of pluralities in many instances; and he had laid down a rule, that where the union was dissoluble, the occupant was not allowed to hold any other. This was enough to shew that the state of Ireland was not what it was a hundred years ago; and he was sure both the right hon. baronet, and the hon. member for Montrose, would agree with him, that at no time had greater improvements been made in our Church establishment than within the above period. That improvements were required, he did not deny; but it would be idle, and worse than idle, for any man to expect that a state of things such as was desired could be brought about at once, and by a single act of parliament. They must proceed cautiously, and by degrees; otherwise they would do injury instead of good. He should, in a few days, have to lay before the House a measure instituted by an Irish bishop (though he believed the measure would originate in the other House), for the repeal of a union by act of parliament. This the reverend prelate did at his-own expence. [A laugh.] Gentlemen on the other side might laugh, but this was no uncommon circumstance. There was not an Irish prelate who would not adopt a similar course, under similar circumstances. The clergy of Ireland had the power to increase as well as to diminish unions: and, within a few years, they had dissolved many. It was in the power of the prelate, with the consent of the incumbent, to erect a chapelry, or separate curacy, in a union; and this had been done in several instances, the bishop making an allowance to the curate during the life of the incumbent. Whatever opinions might be entertained upon the general question, upon this at least all must agree, that it was necessary to take such measures as would secure a resident clergy, or else provide an efficient curacy with an adequate stipend. Leave was given to bring in the Bill.