in rising to dispose of a notice of a motion which he had caused to be placed on the order-book respecting the States of South America, hoped that the House would allow him to premise a very few sentences. Since he had given notice of his motion, he had heard two important declarations made by the ministers of the Crown. It would be unparliamentary to mention the occasion upon which those declarations were made, the places in which they were made, or the parties from whom they proceeded; and he must therefore be excused for not being more explicit on those points. According, however, to the best of his recollection and understanding, the second of those declarations did expressly state (he did not affect to give the precise words) that any considerable armament from the ports of Spain, during the occupation of that country by the French army, against the South American States would be regarded as not being a Spanish expedition, and consequently as coming within the principle laid down in the closing despatch of the right hon. secretary for foreign affairs to sir Charles Stuart last year. He had no difficulty in stating, that after having well considered that declaration, it had made a great impression on his mind; it had supplied what he had considered an omission; and had explained what bad appeared to him to be ambiguous in the papers which had been laid before the House. That declaration had so much narrowed the ground on which any immediate and practical measure could rest, as to render it, in his opinion, very unadvisable at the present moment, to persevere in a motion, which might be understood in Europe, and in America, to imply that the intentions of the British government were mistrusted. Another circumstance had also influenced him, with regard to the determination to which he had come. He had heard, from a quarter which he Considered as trustworthy, but which, being of a private nature, did not carry with it the weight of the official character which was attached to the declarations to which he had just alluded, that a great power of the continent had declined to be a party to the threatened congress on the subject of the South American States. He could not say that he had been influenced by the ambiguous language which the ministers of-France had thought fit to put into the mouth of their monarch in his late speech; nor, indeed, if the language of that document had been much more explicit, would he have placed the least reliance upon it, when he recollected the striking contrast which existed between the public professions and the secret policy of the French government in the year 1822 and 1823. On account of the circumstances he had mentioned, all of which had occurred since he had given his notice of motion, he now begged leave to withdraw it. He might have postponed it to a future day; but he considered it the fairer and more manly course to withdraw it altogether; still, however, holding ministers responsible for every moment of unnecessary delay in acknowledging the independence of the South American States, and reserving to himself the right of bringing the question forward, if he should see cause hereafter.

hoped he might be allowed to say a few words upon the present occasion, though such a proceeding might not be strictly regular. His hon. and learned friend was, of course, at liberty to make, or to postpone, or to withdraw his motion, as should appear to himself most convenient. If his hon. and learned friend had pressed his motion, he would have extorted from him (Mr. C) some remarks; and in withdrawing it his hon. and learned friend had afforded him some temptation for entering into discussion. But, he thought he should best consult his duty by abstaining from making any remarks on what his hon. and learned friend had stated. He only wished the House to bear this in mind, that he neither affirmed nor denied the declarations which his hon. friend had stated to have been made elsewhere.

said, that the notice on the subject of these taxes, so generally exclaimed against throughout the country, which he had given for the 29th of April, had been received by the gentlemen on the Treasury bench with a laugh; but he nevertheless begged to be permitted to say a few words on it. The chancellor of the Exchequer had shewn his opinion of the equality of taxation. No sooner had the tax on windows been taken off, than the right hon. gentleman had directed the board of taxes to send their surveyors to report on the real value of houses, which would be equivalent to an increase in the amount of 25 per cent on the House tax. The right hon. gentleman seemed to have been particularly unhappy in his financial propositions for the present year. He seemed to have cast about, how best to throw away the public money. As for the 900,000l. expended in churches, palaces, and so forth, the right hon. gentleman had said, that these sources of expenditure would not occur again. But, should he not, before he entered upon that expenditure, and before he gave away 2,700,000l. in a most improvident bargain with the Bank, have turned his attention to the prayer of such petitioners as the present? Before gentlemen turned a deaf ear to these petitions, or laughed at the proposition for granting the prayer of them, they should consider what the people had suffered in consequence of those taxes. He hoped he should be able to shew, that public credit might be well supported without them; and he had no doubt it would, ere long, be acknowledged to be absurd to go on buying up three per cents at 95, that had been issued at 50 and 60, and that the whole surplus revenue ought to be applied to the reduction of taxation.

said, he felt himself compelled to say a few words, though certainly not with a view of entering into discussion of any of the various topics which the hon. member had somewhat unseasonably introduced. Of the charge of unmannerly treatment which the hon. gentleman thought proper to bring against him, he was totally unconscious. If there had been any smile on his side of the House, he was unconscious of having participated in it. The smile, if there had been one, was probably excited by the circumstance of the hon. member having selected for his motion a day on which there would be no House; namely, his majesty's birth-day. If the hon. member meant to charge him with having, on this or on any other occasion, shewn any thing like indifference or disrespect in the discussion of any subject connected with the wants or the wishes of the people, it was a charge to which he could not plead guilty. On the contrary, he believed that on every occasion, as well as on that on which the hon. member for Westminster had brought forward his motion, the tone which he had adopted was directly the reverse of that which the hon. member imputed to him. There was not the slightest foundation, in fact, for the charge. As to the notice which the hon. member had taken of the circular letters sent to surveyors from the Tax-office in consequence of instructions transmitted from the Treasury, he had distinctly stated, that the object of the instructions for re-surveying houses was, to afford an opportunity, if the amount of revenue should be raised by a just and equal assessment, to propose a proportional reduction of the tax. His object was, not to screw more money out of the pockets of the people, but, if possible, to save the money of those who were compelled to pay more than they ought to contribute to the revenue, in consequence of an unequal assessment. In this respect, therefore, as well as in that to which he had just adverted, the hon. member had brought a charge against him for which there was not the slightest foundation.

said, that he did not mean to charge the right hon. gentleman with any disrespectful levity. If, however, the right hon. gentleman meant to say that the conduct of his colleagues was as decorous as his own, he could not assent to such an observation, for he would again assert, that the right hon. gentleman's colleagues on the Treasury bench did laugh on the occasion referred to.

strongly urged the necessity of a repeal of the assessed taxes, as well as a reduction of the duties on silk and wool.

hoped the chancellor of the Exchequer would take into his serious consideration the propriety of relieving the country from that most burthensome assessment, the window tax. If the right hon. gentleman was determined not to relieve the country by repealing the window tax this session, he begged leave to suggest to him a mode of relieving the country without taking off the tax. What he would suggest to the right hon. gentleman was, that he would allow all windows which had been stopped up, in consequence of this tax, to be opened. This would create a large demand for glass; and would thus give employment to a number of useful and idustrious individuals who were now out of employ, without any way interfering with the financial arrangements of the chancellor of the Exchequer.

thought those taxes most objectionable which affected the price of labour, such as the taxes on malt, coals, and candles. If these taxes added 2s. a week to the expenses of the poor man, they made the price of labour dearer in that proportion.

said, that if his hon. friend would pledge his word of honour, that he thought a reduction of duty upon the articles he had named would reduce their price to the poorer classes one halfpenny, he would go hand in hand with him in proposing their repeal.

rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend and consolidate the Turnpike Acts. The House would recollect, that a highway and turnpike act of enormous length, the latter containing 150 clauses, were enacted in the year 1822. So complicated were the clauses, that it was essentially necessary they should be explained, to enable magistrates properly to comprehend the meaning of the law. There was at present the greatest difficulty upon the executive part of the subject, and he was particularly anxious to have the clause altered, which, for one offence, affixed a maximum penalty of 5l., but no minimum sum. This, he thought, ought not to be left to the discretion of magistrates. There was an appeal to the sessions, if the penalty exceeded 40s.: but, to evade that appeal, there prevailed a practice of fining only 39s. One evil of these acts was, their inordinate length; and the consolidation which he proposed would, by shortening, obviate that serious inconvenience. If the hon. member below him (Mr. E. Lewis) meant to pursue the subject, he would not himself press the matter any further. If not, he would move, "That leave be given to bring in a bill to consolidate and amend the several acts relating to the Turnpike Roads; passed in the 3rd and 4th years of Geo. 4th."

said, he had no wish to take the subject out of the hands of the hon. member, but he should be extremely happy to give him any information which he might be able to communicate. The acts which he (Mr. F. L.) had undertaken to carry through the House, at the express desire of the committee which sat on this subject, contained no less than one hundred and fifty clauses. If they were imperfect, it was not from any want of attention which had been given to the subject; they had occupied his (Mr. F. Lewis's) time and attention during three sessions. He thought the hon. member would fail in his object, if he attempted to combine the Highway acts with the Turnpike road acts. He agreed with the hon. member that it was desirable to consolidate acts for the purpose of shortening them; but the highway acts were themselves extremely long and complicated, and the hon. member would find the difficulty of legislating on this subject greatly increased; by attempting to combine them with the turnpike road acts; Under all the circumstances, he advised the hon. member to withraw his motion.

said, that considerable improvements had been already made in the turnpike laws. One very material alteration was that of consolidating all the laws on the subject into two acts; and it would have been a still further improvement if they had been all comprised in the act of last session. A considerable portion of practical information had been already obtained, in consequence of the inquiries which had been set on foot; and he would therefore recommend his hon. friend to adopt the advice which had been given him, and to withdraw his motion for the present session. Great improvements were still necessary, but none so decidedly as to require immediate alteration.

entirely approved of the advice given by his hon. friend behind him. He should not now enter into any details, but he would recommend his hon. friend to withdraw his motion for the present, on the ground that we should only have, in another year, to be re-enacting a new measure, and that it would be much preferable to wait until we were in possession of additional information on the subject.

said, that as a magistrate and a commissioner, before whom repeated complaints had been made of the inconveniences arising from the present laws, he had felt it his duty to come forward, for the purpose of ascertaining whether the hon. member meant to renew the measure he had some time back introduced to the House. However, as it seemed to be the general opinion that it would be preferable to postpone the subject to some future period, he had no objection to withdraw his motion.

rose for the purpose of calling the attention of the House to a subject of considerable importance, namely, the state of Education in Ireland: and he could assure them, that if he thought it would require any display of eloquence to enforce its necessity, he should most willingly have resigned it to some individual more competent than himself. But he believed that whatever difference of opinion might exist as to the mode of accomplishing the object, there could be but one feeling as to the great and important advantages that must arise from the diffusion of education in Ireland. He should therefore proceed, in the first instance, to state in detail the progress which had been already made; and he should next state the course which it appeared to him advisable to adopt, with a view to render more efficient the funds which parliament had already granted, and the money which had been devoted by private bequests, to accomplish an object of such paramount importance, to the community at large. He said of "paramount importance," because he was sure all men must admit, that the education of the great body of the people must be conducive to the general welfare. In stating to the House what it was his intention to propose for their adoption, it would be seen that he had to deal with a question of the most delicate nature, which was beset with difficulties, in consequence of the conflicting opinions of people who were divided by religious tenets, and he should therefore most studiously abstain from any observation that could possibly lead to any acrimonious feeling. He could assure the House, that he felt he was discharging a duty of the most serious importance, and he conceived, that none could be more essential, either to the interests of the public generally, or the more sacred cause which he had in view, than a strict avoidance of every topic that could exasperate the feelings or impute blame to any body of men." In any effort of his to promote his object, he should censure no man, because he was persuaded, that whatever impropriety might have arisen in the course which had been followed, was not occasioned by any unworthy feeling; and sensible as he was how liable he was himself to errors he should avoid imputing blame to others. He should take the liberty of stating what parliament had already done on this subject; for, although he was sensible that such a course must be uninteresting to those who had looked into the subject, still he thought it would be necessary, as he was addressing many gentlemen whose different pursuits and various occupations had not allowed them to bestow much consideration upon it. He therefore trusted the House would excuse him whilst he trespassed upon their attention for a few moments. So long back as the year 1787, five years after that memorable period when the Irish parliament had asserted their independence, the public attention was drawn to this object. This circumstance he mentioned with a view to shew, that, at the moment the parliament had fully established their independence, they turned their thoughts to a subject which appeared to them so important. In the month of January, 1787, his grace the duke of Rutland, the then lord lieutenant of Ireland, in his speech to the Irish parliament, in calling their attention to the subject, made use of these words:—"And I hope that some liberal and extensive plan for the general improvement of education will be matured for an early execution." Accordingly, on the 16th of April afterwards, the subject was taken into consideration, and an act was passed, appointing a commission to take into consideration "the general condition of all the schools in Ireland, the funds thereof, together with all the abuses that had taken place in the government and management thereof." However, down to the year 1796, no further steps were taken, and thus the measure of inquiry proved abortive; and he really was surprised how a subject which had been taken up so warmly could have been so easily abandoned. He believed the truth was, that such was the state of parties, and with so many difficulties was the question beset, it was not considered advisable to proceed further; but, if the commissioners had gone on with the examination, he believed, it would have been found that great abuses had taken place. However, nothing was done, and matters continued in this state until the year 1806. He trusted, in what he was now going to state, it would not be supposed that he meant to assume to himself any merit for the course he had pursued; for, had any other person been placed in the situation which he then filled, the subject might have been taken up in the same manner. However, previous to his coming into office, in 1806, a copy of the minutes of evidence taken before the commissioners appointed under the act of parliament had fallen into his hands, which contained an account of great abuses in the management of the schools which were supported by royal donations, as well as those which were maintained by private funds, and he had felt it his duty to lay the statement before the lord lieutenant. His excellency considered the subject of paramount importance, and, accordingly, a bill was passed for the appointment of a commission; six to be nominated by the lord lieutenant, and five by the commissioners of charitable donations, who consisted of the archbishops and bishops of Ireland and other Ecclesiastics; and it was considered, that a mixture of lay and ecclesiastical commissioners would be the most prudent course to adopt; at the head of the lay commissioners stood first in order, as he always stood foremost on all occasions, in which the interests and happiness of Ireland were concerned, he meant his late lamented and never to be forgotten friend, Henry Grattan [Loud cheers]. It was only necessary to mention his name to convey to the House an idea of the character of those who were selected for the inquiry. Several reports were drawn up from time to time, but they were all delivered in between the years 1809 and 1812, and considerable labour was bestowed in drawing them up, as well as receiving evidence; for they contained twelve appendixes. They developed considerable abuses, and recommended various remedies. But, it was to the fourteenth report that he principally wished to direct the attention of the House, because it contained the real principles upon which, as it appeared to him, the education of the people of Ireland should be founded. The right hon. baronet then read several extracts from the fourteenth report, stating, that the commissioners had applied their efforts to frame a system of education for all classes of the people, keeping clear of the religious tenets of any; and that the true system was, to treat them all as one undivided body. It certainly was most desirable, and the reasons would at once strike the House, that such a course should be adopted. They should keep clear of the religious tenets of all classes, and avoid not only the reality, but even the appearance of proselytism. It was of the first importance that education should be free from all interference on religious subjects; and when the minds of men had been formed by education, they would best be able to judge of the merits of any particular creed [hear hear]. Now, it was quite manifest that education should be had on the most moderate terms. Any person who had turned his attention to this subject, must have found how indisposed the people of Ireland were to receive gratuitous instruction. The poorest labourer in that country would rather pay for the education of his child out of his own hard earnings, than accept the benefit of gratuitous instruction. If then, that was the honourable feeling of the people of that country, surely it was incumbent on the legislature to secure to them the opportunity of receiving the education which they required, on the most reasonable terms, and it was quite obvious how great an anxiety prevailed on the part of the people to receive it [hear, hear]. The right hon. baronet next referred to the opinion of Mr. Grattan ^* as to the system which should be acted upon with respect to religious instruction. It was the opinion of Mr. Grattan, that in all the schools the christian religion should be taught, but no particular form of it. Children should be instructed in the four great moral duties—their duty to God, their duty to their neighbour, their duty to their country, their duty to the government. These he considered sound and excellent principles keeping clear of all proselytism, and studiously avoiding all interference. It would be found upon inquiry that in the schools which had royal endowments, there were very few free scholars on the foundation. There were six in one, thirteen in another, and nine in a third. The funds which they possessed were very considerable indeed, and he was sorry to say, that the rate of tuition was considerable also; and he was sure the House would agree with him, that in schools, which "had funds amounting to 700l. and to 1000l. a year, twelve guineas a year was too much to be paid by the day scholars. If there had been no separate establishment at all, that sum would be as much as they could expect from day scholars; and the consequence of these high terms was, that a vast portion of the people were excluded from the benefit of education. He owned he was disposed to think, and in that opinion he was supported by some of the ablest writers on education, that, so far from supposing that masters of schools should have large incomes independent of their scholars, it checked the improvement which it was meant to extend. In like manner, in the Diocesan schools, there were very unequal incomes. The school of Deny had 900l. a year; and upon this subject he could not avoid bearing his testimony to the praiseworthy conduct of the London companies, and particularly the drapers' and fishmongers' companies, who deserved the highest honour for the manner in which they managed their estates in the north of Ireland. A report had been drawn up by the drapers' company, which would do honour to the pen of any statesman that ever lived; and in this assertion he was borne out by his noble friend, the chancellor of the University of Oxford (lord Grenville), to

^* Appendix B, to 14th report.

whom he had had the honour of sending the report, and on returning it, his noble friend had stated, that "the Report does the highest honour to the body from which it emanates; and it is a proud consideration for this country, that a body of men so situated, not attending to their own local interests, but the general welfare of the community, should inculcate principles which would do honour to the head of any statesman" [hear hear]. A new system of school had lately been introduced into Ireland, he meant the "farming school," which was established in the county of Wexford, which he thought would be productive of great advantages, if it should obtain a more general extension. A report of its proceedings had been made to the "farming society," a copy of which, at his suggestion, had been ordered by the House to be laid upon the table. In a country, the greater portion of which was agricultural, such an institution could not fail to produce much good. He was afraid that, from various causes, considerable uneasiness was felt at the jealousy and distrust which was manifested at the extension of education in Ireland. Now, he would take the liberty to state, that it would be not only advisable, but just, to make some allowance for this jealousy and distrust. It should not be forgotten, that they proposed to educate a people, the majority of whom were of a different religious creed from themselves; and it was by no means unnatural, that they should regard with jealousy the views and proceedings of those who undertook to provide them instruction. And he must say, that those who considered the matter fairly and candidly, would do well to make some allowances; and the great object of the legislature should be, if they could not wholly remove, at least to abate this jealousy as much as possible. He trusted, that in any thing he had said, no observation had fallen from him that was calculated to increase the acrimony which he feared existed; if so, he could assure the House, that nothing on earth was further from his purpose. His great object was to control and allay, not to augment the feeling which at present existed. In addition to the statements which he had made, he must inform, the House, that many schools had been founded by the private donations of Roman Catholics. In the city which he had the honour to represent, there was an individual who was entitled to the highest praise, for his exertions on this subject. He had been originally a butcher, and afterwards became a drover, and having realised a considerable property, devoted, not a part, but the whole of his income to promote the cause of education—[cheers]. The right hon. baronet then went into some details respecting the Roman Catholic schools in the dioceses of Cloyne and Tuam, and proceeded to state that he had entered into these particulars for the purpose of shewing what had been done. That much remained still to be done, all were agreed; and that in any further steps that might be adopted, all collision of religious feelings should be studiously avoided, was a desideratum which he trusted the legislature would attain. With that view he meant to conclude the observations he had to make, with proposing an Address to the Crown for the appointment of a commission to proceed to Ireland, to inquire into all the circumstances connected with the system of Education in that country. There were two modes that might have been adopted: the one was the appointment of a committee of that House; the other a commission to examine the subject on the spot, and report their opinion, as to the best means of carrying into effect the intentions of the legislature. That there were advantages and disadvantages attendant upon either course, no man would deny; but you cannot purchase any great advantage without also taking the disadvantages with which it was accompanied. A committee of that House would certainly excite more attention than a commission. Commissioners on the spot would have the opportunity of investigating into all the details much more fully than any committee of the House. On a question so deeply involving the dearest interests of the community, it appeared to him impossible that any government intrusted with the protection of those interests should feel indisposed to give its support and sanction to such an inquiry. When he recollected what had been effected by the two commissions appointed to inquire into the nature and extent of the abuses in the courts of justice, and in the collection of the revenues in Ireland, he felt the fullest conviction that a commission similarly constituted would be productive of the most essential benefits to the public. The abuses developed by the commission on the Irish revenue proved what could be effected by energy and perseverance. The commissioners had probed the existing abuses to the very bottom, and their reports were the best proofs of their unremitting industry in the performance of their duty, as those evils were deeply rooted in the system. In drawing up these reports, and carrying the whole proceeding to its completion, they had fulfilled the object of their appointment, in a manner that reflected the highest credit on themselves, and impart ed a permanent service to the country.—It only remained for him to return to the House, his sincere thanks for the kind attention it had given to his statement, which, under the deepest sense of its importance, he had felt it his duty to submit to its consideration. The right hon. baronet, amidst loud cheers, concluded with moving. "That an humble address be presented to his Majesty that he will be graciously pleased to issue a commission under the great seal, for inquiring into the nature and extent of the instruction afforded by the several institutions in Ireland established for the purpose of Education, and maintained, either in whole or in part, from the public funds; for inquiring into the state of the diocesan and district schools, and the nature of the instruction there given; for ascertaining whether any and what regulations may be fit to be established with respect to the parochial schools; and for reporting as to the measures which can be adopted for extending generally to all classes of the people the benefits of Education; and that his Majesty will be pleased to direct the proceedings of such commission to be laid before parliament."

observed, that there was so much of candour and temperance in the speech of the right hon. baronet; he had introduced his most important motion in such a judicious and conciliatory manner, that he only wished that, in returning his thanks to the right hon. baronet, those thanks proceeded from an individual possessing a more prominent station, and higher influence. Most sincerely he concurred with the right hon. baronet as to the importance of the subject; as to the great value of building up a system of amelioration and improvement in Ireland, on the solid foundation of a general system of public education, and by such an exertion placing the humbler classes of the Irish community on a level with the people of Great Britain. He entirely agreed with the right hon. baronet, that education in that country should be extended as widely as possible, conducted on Christian principles, and avoiding all attempts at proselytism. With respect to any attempt of that kind, he felt justified in saying, that, under the existing system of national education in Ireland, it was generally avoided. He did not mean to say, that in such a variety of schools, through so great an extent of country, there might not have occurred instances, where the over-zeal of some, or the mischievous interference of others, had made such endeavours. But, as a general principle, he felt warranted in saying, that all efforts at proselytism were deprecated. The right hon. baronet had, therefore, acted most wisely in forbearing, on the present occasion, to go into a statement of those exceptions. Having made these general observations, and impressed with the convictions, that without reference to political attachments, all sides of the House were most solicitous to carry the great object into effect, he felt that to enter into any details after the judicious speech, of the right hon. baronet, might only lead to an interruption to that general concurrence, with which the House appeared, disposed to receive the proposition. He should, however, bear testimony to the fact, that there existed at that moment, as there ever did exist in Ireland, the greatest anxiety on the part of the people, to avail themselves of that invaluable blessing. He knew with what liberality parliament was disposed to afford the means of realizing the gratification; and that there existed in Ireland a number of individuals, of the highest consideration and influence, who most unremittingly laboured to give effect to the wishes of the people and the liberality of the legislature. Education had already made a considerable progress; and though he knew the solicitude of the people on that head was not of a recent date, yet if he now augured more favourably as to its increasing progress, it was because the subject had of late years been brought more to the notice of the higher orders of society in that country. So impressed were they with its paramount necessity, that he anticipated that the completion would not be long delayed, of a comprehensive plan, which should have for its object the diffusion of knowledge among their less-enlightened fellow-countrymen.

said, that particular circumstances had brought to his knowledge facts, which it was his intention to have alluded to on the present discussion; but, after the concession of the hon. secretary for Ireland—a concession which he considered a proof of the liberality of his majesty's government—he should not intrude any statement upon the unanimity of the House. However, he must be permitted to express his surprise, that having heard some years ago, one of the most able and eloquent speeches from the right hon. secretary opposite (Mr. Peel), on the necessity of a comprehensive system of education in Ireland, that nothing had followed such an enlightened recommendation on the part of his majesty's government. At least he might be allowed to say, that the fruits of such apian were not visible, in the increasing tranquillity and good order of the lower classes in that country. For his part—and he said so after the fullest conviction—he could not understand how any government could overlook that great duty it owed the public, by not attending to the instruction of the poor. He would endeavour to establish the cogency of that duty, by a very familiar illustration. We felt it necessary, whether for the purposes of interest or pleasure, to prepare our horses or dogs for the services we expected from them, by a previous discipline aad training. Man alone was left in a state of total ignorance, a prey to his own unruly passions; and yet, strange to say, from him, thus abandoned, we exacted a complete obedience to the ordinances of society. Without previous instruction, he was expected to be subjected to our laws, or he was hanged or transported. So long as he had a voice, he would contend, that a government which withheld instruction from the great class of the people, had no right to make them amenable to its bloody and ferocious code. He should have preferred a committee of that House to investigate the great subject connected with the funds applicable to the education of the Irish people, rather than a commission. In a committee, the House would obtain "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." A commission, he feared, would never get at the bottom of the subject. But, before a committee, he must be a most able witness who could conceal the truth, from fourteen or fifteen able members adapting their questions to the objects of the investiga- tion. How far, under existing circumstances, it was practicable to extend education amongst the poor of Ireland he should not say, without further information. But he feared that inquiry would furnish such proofs of existing ignorance and wretchedness amongst the poor of that part of the kingdom, as, if clearly exhibited to that House, would, he was persuaded, render it the earnest wish and immediate employment of every member, no matter on which side of the House he sat, to provide an effectual remedy. We were actively and creditably engaged in extending our benevolence far and wide. The black population of the West-India colonies had attracted the attention of the country, and of the legislature. It was therefore the more inexplicable, that we had so long overlooked the condition of a people with whom we were so closely and intimately connected as the inhabitants of Ireland. In the present state of the world, it was impossible that we could get on without some real and comprehensive remedy for the evils that so long afflicted that country. The first great feature in that system of amelioration should be a general system of education. After the benefits of such a course began to develope themselves, other measures must follow, which should impart to the people a full participation in all the rights and privileges of the constitution. He should not at the present moment, speak of the constitution of the proposed commission, but the House must feel that every thing depended on the manner in which it was constituted. He sincerely hoped that it would be composed of individuals, selected, not because they possessed the confidence of his majesty's ministers only, but because they possessed the confidence of the whole House. They should be persons, who were disposed to sift the subject thoroughly; who would ascertain how the funds, destined for education, were applied; and who were competent to report to the House their views of a full and comprehensive system of education.

said, that though there was no member in that House more impressed with the importance of the question, as it related to the necessity of educating the people of Ireland, yet, after the speeches of the right hon. baronet, and of his honourable friend the secretary for Ireland, he should not have offered a single observation, had it not been for what had fallen from the hon. member opposite. That hon. gentleman had alluded to a speech, made by him several years ago, recommending to that House the pressing necessity of education in Ireland. He could assure that hon. gentleman, that the sentiments he then uttered he felt most sincerely, and the same sentiments he now entertained. The hon. member, however, had observed, that he recognized no measures in consequence of that speech; at least that the fruits of such a system were not to be traced, in the tranquillity and good order of the lower classes of the Irish population. Now, even if it were true that no improvement had taken place since the year 1814, he still thought that such a result should not induce the advocates of education to despair. But, the fact was otherwise. Education had not been neglected, and its progress had been considerable. And* without assuming to himself any undue credit, he thought he might fairly add, that he had not neglected to act upon the opinions which he had supported in 1814. In the next year, he had introduced a bill, having for its object to appoint a commission for the avowed purpose of correcting the abuses which existed in the endowed schools in Ireland. That commission made fourteen reports; the first thirteen referred to the abuses that were found to exist; the fourteenth gave a new plan of education, calculated, in the judgment of the commissioners, to meet the condition of the great body of the Irish population. That he had no wish to disguise the existing evils, but to provide a remedy for them, was evident from the very preamble of the act itself. He was free to confess, that with respect to any general plan, whatever his wishes were, they were qualified by the fear, that the solicitude to do too much might be productive of mischief. He was afraid that in the then existing state of public feeling in Ireland, to attempt by any broad legislative measure, to interfere with the education of the people would have been attended with considerable irritation; that alarm, anxiety, and, jealousy, would have been the result. But, within one year after the speech alluded to, the subject of education was taken up unostentatiously by himself, and his right hon. friend near him (Mr. V. Fitzgerald), then filling the office of chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland. An association of men of the highest distinction, and of all religious persuasions, was formed for that purpose. It was founded on the principles of a Christian education, disavowing all attempts at proselytism. It was the anxious wish to bring together both the Protestant and Catholic children in their earliest infancy, under the natural and laudable presumption, that the bond of attachment, formed under such attractive circumstances, would consolidate the relations of mature life, and eventually lead to reciprocal conciliation and kindness. The education as he said before, was founded on the broad principles of Christianity leaving, however, to the pastors of the respective religions to instruct the children of their persuasion in the doctrinal parts of their religion. In three years after the formation of that society in Dublin, the number of schools was 320. In 1821, they amounted to 530; in 1822, to 727; and last year, there were flowing out of that association no less than 1100 schools in different parts of Ireland. Surely these undisputed facts were a sufficient proof that the advantages to be derived from the education of the Irish poor had not been neglected [hear!]. He could not sit down without expressing his full concurrence in the address that had been moved for the appointment of a commission. It was of importance that parliament should be assured of the progress that education had already made. Let it see to what extent it had been carried. Let every information be afforded, to ascertain whether the system could be amended; and it was desirable to have the reports of commissioners who were qualified to recommend the best means of extending it. As to the appointment of the individuals qualified to act as commissioners in such an important investigation, he begged to assure the House, that those whose duty it would be to advise the Crown, were not unconscious of the severe responsibility, and that he trusted the commission would be constituted in a manner to insure its efficiency, and to obtain the general satisfaction of that House and of the country.

said, he was one of those who felt that there was no hope for the prosperity of Ireland, until the most liberal and comprehensive system of educating the great body of its population was acted upon, under the sanction and protection Of his majesty's government. He trusted that few men could be found without the doors of parliament—he hoped not a man had crossed the threshold of that House— who was not a friend to education in the abstract. He knew that an opinion existed in some minds that Ireland from circumstances, was an exception to the general rule. Had such persons witnessed what he had had the gratification of seeing at the last anniversary of the St. Patrick's charity, they would have been furnished with abundant reasons for altering such impressions. Any man who had on that day seen the children of that charity, selected from the most indigent of the Irish population in this metropolis, must have been persuaded, that in place of Ireland constituting an exception to the general principle of the inestimable value of a diffusive education, that people would become the brightest illustration, as they most needed it, of the value of such a system of improvement. It had been well said, that no other system could possibly be beneficial than that by which the Catholic and the Protestant were brought together in the same school. To any system different from that he was decidedly hostile. Nor could he consent, that the instruction of the people should be placed on any other basis than that of religion. He would never consent that the instruction of the people should be placed on the basis of a specious morality. Whatever might have been said by some writers, such as Mr. Hume and others, who insisted upon morality, to the exclusion of religion, he was convinced that no system of education would thrive, from which was excluded that knowledge which was the beginning of all true wisdom. The Catholic bishops in the petition which they had presented to the House, while they protested against the use of the bible in the schools, without note or comment, declared also, that they were averse to the separation of literary from religious instruction. In the latter sentiment he entirely agreed with them. It must be the object of the proposed commission, to ascertain how far both questions might be satisfactorily arranged. If it should appear that the use of the Scriptures, without note or comment, was insuperably objectionable to the Catholics he should certainly be disposed to wave their use as a class book or primer; although in no other way. But if this concession were made on the part of the Protestants, some concession ought naturally to be expected on the part of the Catholics. These were points to which the commission would have to attend. They would see what neutral ground could be taken on which both parties might amicably meet. For his own part, he desired no concession: he desired no proselytism. He had often said, that he believed a Roman Catholic subject was just as good as a Protestant subject. He could not sit down withot uexpressing his acknowledgments to the hon. baronet by whom the present motion had been made. The right hon. baronet's exertions that night were only a part of the long train of efforts by which he had endeavoured to serve his beloved country. Approving as he did of the right hon. baronet's views on this subject, he trusted that the mode in which those views would be carried into execution would prove highly beneficial to Ireland. The motion was then agreed to.

after having presented a petition from Matthew Phillips, civil engineer and surveyor, for an inquiry into the condition of the labouring poor, proceeded to make his promised motion on this subject. The noble lord said, that a committee had sat upon the subject some years ago, of which committee a right hon. gentleman opposite was chairman. In consequence of the report of that committee, a bill had been brought into parliament, and he was free to confess, that in that bill a right course of legislation had been commenced. But, although a right course of legislation was commenced, yet much remained to be done; and more especially with respect to that which, in his present view, ought to be the principal object of the select committee for which he was about to move; namely, the practice which prevailed in some parts of the country of paying the wages of the labourer out of the poor-rates. This was' a practice in every way so indefensible, that it was exceedingly desirable that some measure should be devised to stop such a vagrant system. One of the resolutions which he should have to propose in that committee was, a recommendation to magistrates not to allow, for the future, any portion of the wages of labour to be paid out of the poor-rates by the overseers. There were two modes of proceeding: that of stopping the evil at once, by legislative prohibition; the other mode was that of carrying into effect the provisions of a bill brought in some time ago by the right hon. gentleman for making a distinction between the industrious and de- serving poor, and those of an opposite character. He would now move, "That a select committee be appointed to inquire into the condition of the labouring classes, particularly with a view to the practice of paying part of the wages of labour out of the poor-rates; and to report their opinion thereon to the House."

said, he had no wish whatever to discourage the noble lord, in the pursuit of the object which he had in view; but he really thought that the noble lord had better limit his motion to the particular object which he desired at present to attain. The noble lord now proposed an inquiry into the condition of the labouring poor, generally. It would surely be much better to draw a line, which should define the points to which the committee were to direct their attention. For let the noble lord consider into what a number of classes the labouring poor divided themselves. First, there were the agricultural classes: then, there were those connected with mechanics; then, there were the labouring classes, belonging to towns, not manufacturing; then, there were the manufacturing classes of labourers. As the noble lord's motion now stood, the committee must inquire into the condition of all these classes; although it was clear, from the noble lord's own statement, that his object was, the appointment of a committee to inquire into the practice which prevailed in some parts of the country, of paying the wages of labour out of the poor-rates; and to consider what measures might be effectually adopted for the abolition of such a practice. If the noble lord's motion were to be agreed to as it stood, the committee would be overwhelmed with the multiplicity of its business. Now, nothing could be more unwise than to devolve on any committee of that House too extensive a labour. It was, of all others, the worst mode of obtaining any advantageous result. In any case in which the powers of a committee were found to be too limited, it was very easy to extend them. If the noble lord accepted the words which he had suggested, or would substitute others of similar import, he assured the noble lord, that he would not throw any difficulty in his way; and that he would not hereafter object to any extension of the powers of the committee, should such an extension be deemed advisable.

said, he had no ob- jection whatever to adopt the recommendation of the right hon. gentleman [hear, hear, hear!]. The motion, as modified by Mr. Peel, was then agreed to; and a select committee was accordingly appointed, "to inquire into the practice which prevails in some parts of the country, of paying the Wages of Labour out of the poor-rates, and to consider whether any and what measures can be carried into execution for the purpose of altering that practice; and to report their observations thereupon to the House."

objected to the clause, that the proprietor of the soil could take or kill game upon it, but could not give the right of doing so to another person.

asked whether, if this clause were agreed to, it would preclude the right of making any remarks on the new descriptions of game introduced in it? He observed, in the enumeration contained in the clause, that woodcocks, which were not game by the common law of the land, were made so by the present measure, and that rabbits, quails, and widgeons were also included. This was an enormous extension of the system of the game laws, of which the people of England already complained so justly as a grievance. The object of the bill was, as he conceived, to mitigate that grievance, and to diminish the mass of crime which every man complained of, from one end of the country to the other. It was therefore inconsistent with the object which they professed, to extend the operation of the game laws to a great variety of animals not heretofore included. He objected to the whole clause, and the bill altogether, though he was prepared with no plan of his own upon the subject. On the contrary, what he wanted was, to get rid of legislation. They had already legislated too much on that, as well as on other subjects. By the present bill, they would have half a dozen lords of the manor, where they had but one before. By one of the clauses, every owner of fifty acres of land was to become entitled to all the game which should be found on that land. In other words, it would vest in twenty persons instead of one, that which was not, in its nature capable of being the property of any individual; and thus would increase tenfold all the evils which were found to arise from the game laws. To the principle of legalizing the sale of game, he subscribed; but he did not approve of the mode in which it was proposed to carry that principle into effect, by means of licences. Desirable as it was that the sale of game should be permitted, there was no way in which it could be accomplished, except by taking away all penalties, and ceasing to legislate on the subject.

agreed with the noble lord, that the operation of the game laws was unpopular and injurious; but he did not agree with him, as to the causes to which he referred those consequences. He disapproved of the laws, because they confined the enjoyment of game to certain privileged classes, and shut the people at large out from it. A man who was not qualified by being the son of a squire, or in some other way, could not even shoot on his own land. What reason could be fairly given, why it was improper that a man should be permitted to shoot the game which he fed, and to let his friends shoot it too, if they wished? For his own part, being as he was, to a certain extent, a preserver of game, he knew there was no return he could make so agreeable to many persons on whom he was inclined to bestow a small civility, as to give them a day's shooting. It was not by giving them game, for that they could, and would, and did buy, as the House well knew; but by letting them come and kill it for themselves; and yet, however he might be inclined to do so, he was not permitted, unless such persons were qualified. If one of his tradesmen had behaved well, in waiting patiently for his bill, or in any other way, and he wished to express his sense of the man's civility, by giving him a little sport, he could not do so, because the honest tradesman was not qualified; while a squire's son, who might be a pauper in the workhouse, could shoot overall the manors in the kingdom. This was the cause of the unpopularity of the game laws; and it was because there was one and not ten lords of manors, that the jealousy, which was a very proper one, existed on the part of the people. Men who were not qualified durst not take their guns in their hands; they were not only debarred from shooting game, even on their own lands, for their tables, but they were absolutely prohibited from shooting a hare in their own defence. He disliked all such privileges, and thought the right of shooting game ought to be thrown open to the proprietors of land; and that they who produced the game should have a right to do with it whatever they pleased.

entreated the House to confine its attention to the subject of the clause before them, and not to suffer questions upon the general principle of the bill to be discussed, until the clause should be disposed of. His noble friend's objection had been, he thought, founded in a mistake, because he seemed to suppose, that there was a penalty attached to killing those animals which were now first to be called game. It was not so; but the property of such animals was vested in the owners of the soil on which they were grown or should be found, and persons unlawfully killing them incurred no penalty, but were liable to the conse- quences of the trespass. No unqualified man could go on the land of another and kill any of this game; but, if he killed>any of that which had before been called game, then he incurred the penalties which had been before provided for that offence. If a man had only a foot of land, he might kill all the game he could find on it.

wished to know whether, as the bill declared these animals to be the property of the owner of the soil, persons killing them were to be considered as committing a felony?

objected to the words "rabbits, wild ducks," and others, describing animals which were not before considered as game. He thought they extended the bill too far; but if they were omitted, he had no objection to the clause.

wished the word "rabbits" to be retained, because the common pretence under which poaching was extensively carried on was, that the persons committing it were in search of rabbits.

thinking that the notions about game were so loose and unsettled, that people did not regard it in the same light as other property, objected that any other penalty should be annexed to the violation of it than attached to ordinary trespassers.

was disposed to give up the words after "grouse."

repeated his wish to know, whether the carrying away such game as was mentioned in the bill was to be considered as a felony against the owners?

said, that the penalty of 40s. provided by the act was the only one which it was intended to inflict; but to prevent all misconstruction on this head, he proposed to add a clause, declaring, that no other penalties than those mentioned in the bill should attach.

objected to the clause, which transferred the right to the game from the lord of the manor to the owner of the land, and instanced his own case. He was lord of a manor, in which he had no land, but was in possession of the tithes, and he had hitherto enjoyed, with the permission of the occupiers, the right of sporting over the whole of the manor j but, by this clause, his situation would be materially altered, and that greatly to his disadvantage. He knew the House would not legislate upon particular cases, but the situation in which he stood, was that of many other persons.

contended, that lords of manors, not being owners of the land, had no right whatever to shoot over it without licence, and that the clause would not materially intrench upon any manorial rights.

wished, that on whatever footing the rights of lords of manors at present stood, they should so remain.

contended, (hat manors were good property. He had known one purchased from government, which had no other, quit rent but 5l. a year, and no other common belonging to it than a few acres, and for this manorial right 1,400l. had been given. If this bill were now to pass, this person would be cheated out of 1,400l. He trusted the House would protect the rights of lords of manors, which were not so imaginary as some gentlemen supposed them to be.

was hostile to the clause; and wished to know, whether the rights of lords of manors, let them be what they would at present, would not be materially altered if the bill passed.

defended the clause. He thought that the rights, as they existed at present, subject to impediments at every step, were not worth a farthing; and that, on the whole, he had given to lords of manors more than he had taken away by making the game on unenclosed lands property.

could not but think that there was a great interference with the rights of property by the present bill; and that, before the House should so interfere, they ought to be assured of the benefits which were likely to arise from it. He should be ready to agree to it, if any great advantage could be shown to be derived from it; but he thought the operation would be prejudicial, for it would increase, instead of diminish, the grievances of the game laws. The committee were sitting to clear the county gaols from the number of criminals with which they were filled under the game laws. That was the great grievance; but by this bill the number of enclosures would be increased, and consequently the number of persons interested in prosecutions, and he feared the number of offenders, would also be increased.

was not prepared to say' whether it would be better to pass the bill with the present clause, or to try the experiment of making the game saleable, leaving the rights of lords of manors as they were; but he wished to see how his hon. friend intended to deal with the new-created rights.

held it to be impossible to pass a law making game saleable, and yet leave the right to it in the hands of those who had not contributed to the expense of feeding it.

much doubted whether it would not be better for his hon. friend, in the first instance, to limit his experiment.

agreed with his hon. friend, that to make game saleable, and retain it in the hands of a privileged class, was what the country would not endure.

said, that the House ought to pause before they threw open to the great class of the people aright, which, from the numbers, power, and disposition of that class, they never afterwards could recal. He was one of those who considered that a species of property which had been enjoyed for ages, ought not to be lightly dealt with. He did not conceive that the proposed alteration would have the effect of making the gaols less full, or the people more moral, or more contented.

said, that the state of things under the game laws was so abominable, that any measure which would afford a chance of escaping from that state he was disposed to consider a benefit. If he were convinced, that legalizing the sale of game, without introducing the principle of property, would prove effectual, he would willingly agree to it; but he could not indulge that hope. He could not help saying, that what had fallen from the hon. member for Yorkshire, had gone a great way to reconcile him to the clause.

approved of the principle in the bill which gave the property in game to the lords of the manor.

was exceedingly anxious that the sale of game should be permitted, because he well knew it could not be prevented. He, however, only asked now, that the permissive rights which land-owners at present possessed of appointing game-keepers, &c, should be reserved to them.

thought the hon. baronet's proposition would defeat the general objects of lords of the manors as to game.

objected to the next clause, as authorizing, in very many cases, a violation of existing contracts between landlords and tenants, where a right of killing game had been reserved to the latter. This clause enacted, "that it should be lawful for the person entitled as owner in fee of any enclosed lands, the same not being in his own possession, but let to others, tenants or tenant, to pursue, kill and destroy game, over such lands, without asking permission of the owner thereof." He should propose to omit the latter part of it.

supported the amendment. If tenants were thus deprived of vested rights, some compensation ought to be given to them.

thought there might be some force in the objection taken, if it were assumed, that landlords were necessarily litigious. But he could not consent to such an amendment; for it was taking the right of shooting from the landlord, and giving it, in effect, to the tenant, solely. The landlord would be placed by it in a much worse situation than he stood at present. He would venture to say, that if this clause were passed, without the words objected to being retained in it, he should be kept off his own land for all purposes of sporting, for several years to come.

was satisfied of the monstrous injustice which the clause in its present state was calculated to produce. What security had tenants that landlords would behave in so gentlemanly a manner, or in a way so little litigious, as the hon. member for Yorkshire seemed to suppose? Inasmuch, indeed, as this bill would enable all tenants, whether qualified or unqualified, to sport over the land; in their occupation, so far the landlord would be placed in a worse situation by this bill than he was before; but that was no reason for retaining the clause.

supported the rights of the lords of manors, which the bill at present did not sufficiently protect.

thought there could be no good in holding out any inducement to tenants to quarrel with their landlords. Tenants might as well be at once permitted to sport over the lands they occupied, to the exclusion of the landlord, as landlords be left in the prejudiced situation which this proposition would leave them in.

suggested, that if a tenant were legally qualified to kill game, he ought to be allowed to possess the right, notwithstanding this bill, in any case where it was granted by his lease. The lord of the manor ought to enjoy a concurrent right. A clause, he thought, might be so worded, as to avoid the difficulty at present started.

instanced his own case, and argued, that if the clause passed, as it was now worded, he should be ousted of an important right, for which he had paid a considerable sum.

could not consent to any compromise like that proposed by the hon. member for Beaumaris.

was of opinion, that if the landlord possessed the right of shooting now, he ought not to be deprived of it. Nevertheless, he supported the amendment, because it was only just to preserve equally the right of the tenant.

said, that as the question was intricate, it ought to be left for decision on a future day.

maintained, that there was no intricacy at all in the point. He was of opinion, that to retain the words would be virtually to give the landlords a power of altering half the leases in the kingdom; for it was as much a matter of course, where there was no express stipulation in the lease to the contrary, for the landlord to concede to the tenant a right of shooting over the land, as of growing upon it crops of wheat, barley, or other corn, or of fishing in any waters that ran through it.

thought it was necessary to give landlords some protection, otherwise they would not be in a better, but in a worse situation. He was inclined to leave the parties as nearly as possible in the state in which they at that moment stood. He would not confer upon the landlord any new right, nor allow the tenant, upon whose farm the owner might at present come under the terms of the lease, to warn him off. He wished a declaratory clause upon the subject, to be introduced into the bill. In leases in general, the landlord reserved the right to sport; but old ladies, and infirm persons, did not always insert a clause for this purpose. As the law stood, the landlord enjoyed certain valuable privileges, and the House ought not, with a suicidal hand, to destroy them.

said, he had supported the bill in principle originally; but, if this clause were inserted without amendment, he would vote against the measure in every future stage.

expressed his readiness to postpone the further consideration of the clause until another day. He was satisfied that it ought to be introduced into the bill in its present shape, in order that justice might be done to all parties. He proposed that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.