moved for a return, "of the number of Country Banks issuing notes that have become bankrupts since January 1816, up to the present time; stating the place where the banks were established, the number of partners in each bank, the amount of debts proved against each, and the amount per cent of dividends paid or declared upon each, as far as the same can be complied with." The House would then have before it, a statement of the extent to which the public banking had suffered by the country system.

wished the account to extend to Scotland.

said, he had no objection.

thought the account objectionable, as an intrusion upon the affairs of individuals. If the principle wag once established, that any member might move for an inquiry into the private concerns of parties, it was difficult to see where the operation of that principle might stop. How could that House entertain cognizance of the debts which had been proved. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not accede to such an improper motion.

wished Scotland to be included, because he was persuaded that a return to the motion, as regarded Scotland, would be nil.

said, that when an intrusion upon the private affairs of individuals was spoken of, it ought to be recollected of the country bankers, that they had in fact been dealing in that which was the money of the country. Theirs was quite a different case from that of merchants or ordinary traders; and he was therefore disposed to support the motion. He had not until that morning read the correspondence between the Treasury and the Bank; but, in reading it he had been much struck with a paragraph which stated, that the country banks, all of them, without exception, had for some time fostered, supported, and encouraged, a rash spirit of speculation. Now, in the name and on behalf of very many country bankers who claim to be considered men of honour, prudence, and integrity, he called on the chancellor of the Exchequer, to state the grounds upon which he had made that sweeping accusation. At the same time, it would, perhaps, be convenient to the right hon. gentleman to prove to parliament the sound policy of directing public odium against the country banks at this particular crisis.

saw no objection whatever to the motion. He thought it quite reasonable that the House should be in possession of any facts relative to the number of country banks which had failed. Such a return could do no mischief to parties who might have failed and were in business again. With regard to the terms in which the country bankers were spoken of in the correspondence between the government and the bank, he could have no objection to give every explanation to those who might fancy themselves injured thereby. Most certainly, it never had been the in- tention of ministers to convey the slightest imputation against individuals. Their argument went merely to the general system of country banking. And it was difficult to think that any member could have listened to the account given a few nights since by the hon. member for Taunton, of the course which a country banker was compelled to pursue in order to carry on his business profitably, without seeing that the system was calculated to produce the effects adverted to in the correspondence. In truth, an allusion to the system of country banking generally, and not to individuals, was all that ministers had contemplated; and that was the only interpretation which they imagined could be put upon the words in question; but even if the charge had been made against individuals, he could not look at it in the same light with the hon. member for Mid-hurst. Every man who possessed, and traded with, considerable capital, was, more or less, an encourager of speculation; and to say so, was neither an impeachment of his honour or his integrity.

was happy to hear the explanation given by the right hon. gentleman; but, without that explanation, he certainly should not have understood the expressions, "rash speculations, aided, fostered, and abetted, by the country banks," as exactly placing the country bankers upon that advantageous ground which it seemed they really occupied in the right hon. gentleman's opinion. For himself, however, he denied the fact that it was by the issues of the country banks that the rash spirit of speculation, as it was called, which had existed in the country, and the enterprises to which that spirit had led, had been supported. Seventeen millions of paper could not have been issued by any country banks for purposes of speculation, and that speculation principally carried on in London. For, as fast as a country note made its appearance in London, it was instantly converted into a bank of England note, or into gold, or the banker was discredited. Those speculations, which, joined to the conduct of government, had done so much to disorder the country, never could have been carried on by country bank notes. To the motion he saw no objection. As far, however, as disclosure went, it would do the country bankers no harm, but good. It was well for ministers to talk of country paper! The right hon. gentleman had more accommodation paper in the market than all the country banks put together. No circumstance had more contributed to do mischief than the immense amount afloat of exchequer bills. Government, deal as it would with the system of the country banks, would do little good until the issue of exchequer-bills was limited. He could not place much confidence in any set of men who could speak on the 13th of January of the distresses of the country as being over.

said, that during the last year, the country bankers had been almost the only class of persons who had not speculated. They had been rather the victims of the speculations of others, than speculators themselves.

thought, that though it would be perfectly easy to obtain a return of the number of failures of country bankers, it would be extremely difficult to learn the amount of the dividend they had respectively paid. The object of the hon. gentleman appeared to be, to show the advantages of the Scotch system of banking, as compared with that obtaining in England; both with regard to its general security, and as not being obnoxious to the objections of encouraging undue adventure. But, if such were the hon. gentleman's view, Mr. Gurney said, he must entirely differ with him. There was nothing he should more deprecate than the introduction of the Scotch system into this country, as he was convinced, that its direct tendency would be to the increase of the number of bankruptcies, though not, perhaps, leading to the breakage of so many banks. The Scotch system was one which went, much more than that of England, towards facilitating speculations of every kind; but, it was the customer there who broke, and the banker who swept his securities. Much had been said, and said very idly, of the degree in which the paper of the country bankers had aided in the delusions and frauds which had been practised an the public; but, in fact, the country banker is, of all mankind, the most interested in preventing speculation. The speculator is his natural enemy. If he gains, the profit is not the banker's; and, if he becomes insolvent, the banker is sure to lose. At the same time, there is an evil in the existing system, for which it seems difficult to find an adequate remedy. The banker allows an interest to the customer; consequently, he must employ the money deposited with him; and, when the mass of the transactions of the country are such as they have been of late, it is impossible for him, with the utmost precaution, to avoid entirely the discount of bills, of which the basis may be partly commercial transactions, and partly mere speculation; whilst his circulation will necessarily be proportionably increased by the increased prices of all things, measured in a perpetually increasing medium; and, when any revulsion takes place, it is obvious that the banker must as necessarily pull in his advances, for his own security, with the greatest rapidity with which he can effect it, in order to meet his engagements; and thus greatly increase embarrassment, whenever embarrassment shall be general. The hon. member then entered into the detail of the successive depreciations of the currency, since 1797. He said, it was agreed on all hands, in the debates of that House in 1812, that the depreciation had reached 35 per cent. Now, he considered that this 35 per cent, or something like it, had hung upon them ever since. At one time, through the abundance of paper circulation, it had spent itself on the currency: at another, when that paper was called in, it had fallen on prices. Then we had commercial embarrassment, and agricultural distress, till the necessities of all men had brought the right hon. gentleman's bill of 1819, by a sort of tacit agreement, into abeyance and commodities paid for in paper, found the prices at which they could be produced under the existing burthens of the community. For his own part, he sincerely wished the circulation of the country out of the hands of private individuals. But, it was utterly impossible to do away with the paper currency of the country banks, without supplying some other medium, which should sustain prices in a manner to meet this depreciation, which had gone to 35 per cent in 1812; and this could, in his opinion, only be done by one of two measures—the one, the abandoning the law for making gold, at its present standard, the only legal tender; the other, issuing such amount of paper, either by government directly, or by the Bank, as should sustain the general sale value of commodities at something like their understood level.—Mr. Gurney said, that he felt some apology was due to the House, for having taken that occasion of express- ing his sentiments on the subject; but as, in the more regular debate on the right hon. gentleman's motion to-morrow, many gentlemen of much more weight would probably be desirous of giving their opinions at length, he might then be precluded from an opportunity of stating what was his decided conviction; namely, that unless some measures of the nature adverted to were entertained, they would bring on an almost universal bankruptcy, and a degree of pressure, to which the embarrassments of 1816, 1821, and 1822, could hardly bear a comparison, and under which, how the multiplied engagements of the country, public and private, could possibly be met, was more than he could comprehend.

said, that the system upon which the Scotch banks were conducted, was that of creating an artificial capital, which was lent out in aid of the manufactures and trade of the country. That this system had been productive of great advantages, was proved by this, that it had raised Scotland from being the poorest country in Europe, to the state in which it at present was. The banking system in England was upon a different footing, it had the effect of keeping up a system of trading and manufacture which ministers were using every effort in their power to oppose. When they found that the system now pursued by ministers actually sent twenty four millions a year out of the country without any return, it would be clearly seen that nothing but our banking system could have prevented the present distresses of the country from having come upon her long before. And if ministers persevered in their intended plan of withdrawing the one and two pound country bank notes from circulation, they would aggravate those distresses ten fold. It was to him astonishing that the House should continue to look with silence upon this conduct on the part of his majesty's government; first causing of a great evil, then suddenly changing their measures, and thereby aggravating the distress which their first error had caused. He begged of the House to recollect this argument with respect to our commercial system, that our foreign commerce, including shipping and all, did not amount to more than forty millions a-year, while our manufactures, agriculture, and internal trade and commerce, amounted to one hundred and thirty millions per annum. Such being the case, it became the duty of the landed and manufacturing interests, to check the progress of the evil. But when had there been any discussion upon the subject since the meeting of parliament? There had, indeed, been some motions for the production of papers and returns, but no hon. member had come forward to propose a remedy for the evil. On the contrary, every one seemed anxious to shut his eyes from the view of those miseries, the existence of which no one could deny.

wished to ask a question of the chancellor of the Exchequer, in order to solve a doubt suggested by the correspondence between the Bank and government, concerning branch banks. In the answer of the Treasury committee of the Bank to the communication from ministers, they said, "Finding also, that the proposal by the Bank of establishing branch banks is deemed by his majesty's ministers inadequate to the wants of the country, &c." What he wished to ask was, when the Bank made that proposal to establish branch banks, what was the nature of that proposition, and why it was not before the House?

said, that no proposition had, in fact, been made in the written communications of the Bank to establish branches of its own institution. Something of that kind might have passed in the course of the discussions, but certainly no direct proposition to establish branch banks of their own had been advanced in writing by the Bank.

said, that the Bank had said expressly, that the proposal which had been made by them was not one which ministers could adopt, because they considered it inadequate. Certainly, if such a proposition had been made by the Bank, it ought to be known to the House.

repeated his denial of any proposition having been made in writing by the Bank to establish branch banks; though, if they had made such a proposition, ministers would have deemed it inadequate to the prevention of a crisis like that through which the country had just passed.

—Then, in point of fact, the Bank did never make any such proposal ["No," across the table]. Then it ought not to have appeared in a written communication of their own that they did.

said, that the subject might hate been touched upon verbally and iu- cidentally, but no specific proposition had been made. The expressions in the answer of the Bank went too far. But, for years past, that plan had been repeatedly a subject of conversation.

thought, that the trading in money ought not to be allowed to individuals, it being a branch of the prerogative of the sovereign. As to bringing before the public, individuals who had been unfortunate, there could be no objection on that ground, as those individuals had already appeared in the Gazette. His object was merely to lay before the House certain facts. That the public had suffered much from the recent failures, by the issuers of paper, was beyond doubt; and those losses ought not to rest upon the poorer classes of the community. He was anxious that the House should see the amount of loss which had been sustained from actual failures.

said, he was anxious to explain an observation of his which had been misunderstood by the hon. member for Wareham. That hon. member seemed to be of opinion, that he had thrown the whole blame of the excess of issues on the country banks. He wondered how the hon. member could have so misunderstood him. What he did say, was, that it was not possible to charge the whole evil, or even its origin, on the country banks, or upon any persons issuing paper. The speculations which had brought on the present crisis were of a character necessarily incident to all commercial countries, where there existed a great share of capital and enterprise. In all such cases, individuals would be found ready to take advantage of every circumstance favourable to their own interests. He had further said, that the speculations of 1819, whatever their immediate effect, had been followed by increased confidence and speculation.

said, he was most ready to admit the right hon. gentleman's explanation. He felt it at the same time necessary to say, that the papers on the table went far to strengthen the impression he at first entertained of what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman.

presented a petition from certain Silk Throwsters of Somerset, against the importation of foreign Silks.

called the attention of the House to one or two facts connected with this subject. It was said, that 30 per cent was a protecting duty for our silks; but he knew that wrought silks could be introduced, both from India and from France, at such a rate as to compete with our manufacturers when putting the raw material into the loom. Would the House, then, allow ministers to persevere in a system which would destroy a trade that the country had been nursing for ages? To compete with the French was impossible. They had a particular kind of silk which they never allowed to go forth but in a manufactured state. Let that silk be brought into our market, and it would be bought up at whatever price by our fashionables. These silks, once introduced, would drive our produce out of the market. Was the English manufacturer, with a load of debt hanging like a millstone round his neck, to be compelled to a competition with the French manufacturer, whose debt sat so lightly upon him that it was not felt as a burthen? Were they to tolerate such a proceeding? Let them call upon ministers to put this part of their new measures at rest. How else were they to get out of the difficulties and distresses under which the country laboured, unless by giving every stimulus to industry, which was at present at a stand. The labouring classes were without employment, and the means of procuring food or raiment; and yet ministers persisted in subjecting the manufacturers to the competition of cheaper markets.

presented a petition from Taunton, against the introduction of French silks, which, he said, deserved the serious consideration of the House. The subject, he hoped, would undergo discussion at an early period, seeing that hundreds of thousands of people anticipated ruin and starvation from the importation of foreign silks. It was not now the time for him to go into that discussion; though it would be very desirable if the president of the Board of Trade could contrive to be in his place when petitions of this nature were sure to come on. He hoped to see the question set at rest. The conviction on his own mind was settled long ago. What he wished to see was, whether or no the House would support ministers in their desperate resolution. Great anxiety existed among the silk manufacturers, and great hopes were entertained by them, that the House would defend them against the ruin which awaited them from the measures pursued by government. He had no great confidence in that source of relief, when he recollected how his own objections to the measure had fared two years ago. But the public mind should be set at rest. The master silk-weavers could not find employment for their people until their own fate was known. Whether right or wrong, they all said, that if French silk goods were let in, there was no chance of selling a single yard of English silk. He could not approve of hearing them in a committee, because of the delay which would follow. Nor did he hope, if the committee were allowed, that they would be able to make out the case, that it was impossible for the English manufacture of silks to bear the competition of a free trade. The case which they had made out to him had left his mind without the shadow of a doubt. Still, the question ought to be set at rest by a bill. The conduct of government justified a suspicion, that they would not scruple to take liberties with the law. The late order to prevent the issuing of stamps from the Stamp-office, was a direct violation of the existing law. He was anxious to get rid of the one and two pound notes, but he wished to see them abolished gradually, and by legal means. He had to complain of a similar infraction with respect to the silk laws. A duty of 7s. 6d. a pound had been laid upon thrown silk. He had said at the time, that every penny of that protecting duty on thrown silk, must so far sacrifice the interest of the manufacturer. An order had lately gone down to state, that it was the intention of government to reduce that duty 2s. 6d., or from that to 3s., as they found that 5s. was a sufficient protection for the throwsters; so completely ignorant were ministers of that interest, concerning which they were so ready to advise enactments. As if the law and the parliament were as nothing compared with their own notions, they undertook to accept 5s. per lb. upon an article which was to have paid the state 7s. 6d. per lb. This was a strong case; and, like the other, might be justifiable by circumstances. But if so, it was the bounden duty of ministers, to have stated them to parliament, and sought protection from the offended law in a bill of indemnity. The whole trade was unhinged, and the operatives were in the greatest straits. What be wished was, to impress the minds of ministers with the necessity of speedily taking their case into consideration. The petitioners had requested him to remove an impression which had been made by the hon. baronet (sir T. Lethbridge), that they were satisfied with the corn laws. They had directed him to contradict that statement. Their impression, on the contrary, was, that the principle of free trade must be greatly injurious to the general interests, unless it were extended to corn.

wished to excuse himself for not being present sooner. His only apology was, that he had not been absent for his own convenience, but in discharge of the duties of his office, and from which he had repaired to the House. He knew that this apology was inadequate to the occasion; but it was the best he had to offer. As to the order of the Treasury to lower the duty on thrown silk, it was a mistake to state that it was done without authority from parliament. The board of trade having satisfied themselves, that 5s. was a sufficient protection, they had directed so much of the duty to be taken, and that bonds should be given for the excess of 2s. 6d. per pound, should parliament not concur with the government. The House would see at once, that the whole of the duty was secured to the public, should parliament think proper to exact it, and that ministers had by no means assumed a dispensing power over it. He would not now go into the discussion of the deranged state of the trade and currency of the country. When the subject was brought forward in the regular and formal manner, he should be quite prepared to meet the objections to the regulations in the silk trade, and all the other alterations in the commercial system which parliament had adopted. The hon. gentleman himself had given his sanction to much of what had been done; and there certainly was nothing more desirable, than that this matter should be fully discussed in that House.

implored ministers to take the subject of the silk trade again into consideration. He gave them credit for their intentions; but the consequences of their measures were just such as, two years ago, he had predicted. Open the ports of England, he had said, to foreign silk, and the home manufacturer must be ruined. In his neighbourhood, thousands were suffering extreme distress; and were chiefly supported by the warrant of the magistrate. This state of things could not last. What was to follow it? Clearly starvation. He called upon the landed and manufacturing interests to induce ministers to forego a plan which must ruin them all.

said, that the hon. member for Taunton had mistaken his expressions, both as to time and meaning. It was not on a petition which he had presented, but in the course of the observations which were made on the report of the Address that he had stated that which he believed to be perfectly correct; namely, that the great body of the manufacturers took a more chaste view of the corn question than before. He had never taken upon him to say, that the manufacturers would have no complaints about the price of corn, however high; but only that, in the present state of the price of provisions, they did not complain of the Corn laws, but of the destruction of their trade. And, indeed, in their present condition, it would not be surprising if they were to complain of the price of provisions, however low. Yet, to be candid, he could not but look upon this alteration of the silk trade as an outwork to a similar alteration in the Corn laws, which, if not directly touched, was so by a side-wind, tending at no distant period to an open trade in corn. From the distress resulting to the manufacturers from this first attempt, the House might be called upon to consider of a similar alteration in the corn trade. He thought that, if the intentions of government bore that way, the more manly course would have been to begin with the corn trade. For his own part, he must oppose any proposition like that of a free trade of corn. As long as the national debt remained, no such thing could be listened to. The country could not support that competition and its present burthens together. He would be as glad as any to see low prices, but high prices there must be. The prices must be kept up by an import duty, amounting to an absolute prohibition, so long as the interest of the national debt was to be paid.

said, that the hon. baronet was certainly right in considering this measure as the outwork of an attack on the Corn laws. If the principle of freedom was to be applied to other trades, it ought to be applied to the trade in corn. With respect to the case of the silk manufacturers, a great uncertainty prevailed in the public mind upon that subject. He intended shortly to move to have all the petitions referred to a committee. Much useful light had already been thrown on this subject, and much more might be expected. It was the opinion of persons who had the best continental intelligence, that unless there was a great improvement in machinery, and a great reduction in the price of corn, they could not proceed with this bill, without throwing out of employment the great mass of people engaged in the trade. Whether that trade could be built up again, was another question; but the present ruinous effect was clearly contemplated. The bill had, notwithstanding, one good effect. It had induced the silk manufacturers to institute a full inquiry into the state of their trade, and the result was a conviction on their part, that the foreign competition would prove ruinous to the home manufacturer.

said, he had never encouraged this particular measure respecting silk: on the contrary, he was almost the only person who had raised his voice against it from the outset. Still it was rather hard, he must admit, to throw the whole responsibility of the bill upon ministers, since it had passed through the House with almost unanimous approbation. He was old enough to know, that those measures were not always the best and wisest which received the readiest acquiescence of that House.

said, he never intended to intimate that his lion, friend had supported this particular measure. All he meant to state was, that the opening of the colonial trade, and the removal of the duty on the raw material, had his hon. friend's approbation.

said, he understood, that a gentleman had lately returned from the Continent, who had been abroad during the whole of last year, under instructions from his majesty's government to collect information on the state of the foreign corn trade. He was anxious to know if that gentleman had made any report upon the subject, and if so, whether and when it would be presented.

had no difficulty in stating, that the individual alluded to had been sent from this country with instructions from government, to obtain information respecting the corn trade of those countries in Europe from which England imported gram. He had returned, after making all the necessary inquiries, and a very few days ago had put into his hands, a report of great extent. It contained 150 folio pages, together with a voluminous appendix. As yet he had been unable to read the report. As far as he knew of it, however, he bad no reason to think that the gentleman had not obeyed his instructions; and if this should continue to be his opinion after a perusal of the report, he knew of nothing which ought to prevent its being laid before parliament.

said, that although the accounts for which he was about to move were generally granted without opposition, he hoped, under the particular circumstances of the times, that he should be allowed a brief explanation of his views as connected with them. The accounts referred first to the balances lodged by the government, for the public, in the Bank; and next, to the charges for the management of the public debt, and other services performed by the Bank for the public. It was, perhaps, in the recollection of those who now heard him, that when he had first called the attention of parliament to the affairs of the Bank, the production of these accounts was resisted, not only by that corporation, but by the then chancellor of the Exchequer. After, however, a two or three years perseverance in calling for them, the resistance gave way, and on every successive year that he had since called for them, they were yielded without a struggle. It was thought by many, that the publicity which had been given to the transactions between the government and the Bank had been productive of public good. And, when he considered the approaching period of the expiration of the charter—a charter which he hoped and trusted would expire—he thought that, as the question between the Bank and the public was about to terminate, he should be allowed to say a few words for perhaps the last time, on the state of their affairs. The first class of accounts which he now called for related to the deposits of public money lodged in the Bank for current use, in the same manner as any gentleman kept his cash account at his private banker's. He remembered that, at one time, the average amount of the public balance so placed for ten or twelve years amounted to no less a sum than eleven or twelve millions a year. Of late years this amount had, it was true, considerably decreased. In 1821, it was diminished to 3,900,000l. In 1822, to 4,200,000l. In 1823, to 5,200,000l. In 1824, to 7,200,000l. He was quite sure, that no practical man at all conversant with the value of these lodgments, would deny the advantage which they must confer upon the Bank; and he must repeat what he had often asserted, that the nature of the service performed by the Bank for the public, as compared with the profits accruing from the use of such large deposits, was so trifling, as hardly to admit of calculation in any proper settlement of these transactions. It was right to call the public attention to this circumstance; for when the period arrived of the expiration of the Bank charter, it would be for the government to consider what bargain it would renew for the transaction of the public business with the present Bank (for he thought it would still be preferable to deal with them); or whether a second bank on a large scale would agree to give the public a participation in the profits arising from the heavy balances in hand, and take such a sum as 10 or 20,000l. a year for the management of the national business. At all events, the public ought, whenever the bargain was again made, to receive a large participation in the profits derived from the use of so many millions of their own money. Let them consider how the public cash account stood at the Bank of England. The Bank had advanced 15,000,000l., the whole of its capital, to the public, at 3 per cent interest, and this large premium they were receiving for the year 1824, while they actually were holders of nearly seven millions and a half of the money of that same public. Surely there ought to be a balance of mutual profit struck, under circumstances like these. The next subject that he wished to refer to was the allowance made by the public to the Bank for the management of the public debt. The trouble of this management consisted in the daily transfer of Stock, and the payment of the annual dividends to the public. It was due to the Bank to say, that the whole of this business was invariably performed with promptitude, exactness, and diligence; that, in fact, nothing could be better done; and there was only one complaint to be made respecting it, which was, that the price for the work was much too high. When the charter should expire, he hoped this matter would also be taken into consideration; indeed, on an equitable revision of this part of the bargain, the public ought to save 250,000l. The hon. member then concluded by moving for the said accounts.

said, he had no objection, on the part of the Bank, to the production of these accounts; but he would not, on the present occasion, go into the merits of the public bargain with the Bank, or the terms which ought to accompany the contingent respecting their charter. He hoped that important subject would in due time be gravely considered; not as it regarded the Bank itself, but as it would best serve the government and the country. They would at least come to the discussion with the full knowledge of the eminent services performed by the Bank for the public, when that corporation had stood in the gap, and effected what, upon emergencies, legislative interposition would have failed to accomplish. What the consequences to the public would be, if there were not such an establishment in existence in its chartered form, he would leave others to anticipate. As to the allowances to the Bank, it would be time enough to discuss their amount when the charter was under consideration; but really when the hon. gentleman thought proper to estimate the services performed by the Bank, he should not keep back the immense risks and losses which they incurred, in transacting the public business. On a late occasion they had lost by the forgeries of a single person above 250,000l., and this, too, in the execution of the public business, and so contrived by the individual, that although the strictest inquiry was made into the conduct of the Bank clerks, in no single instance could negligence or impropriety be attributed to any one of them for it. There were other losses of the same character continually happening, which must be taken into the scale of estimating the advantages derived by the Bank from its connexion with the pecuniary business of the public. He regretted the allusions to the charter, and that the existence of it should be imputed as a matter of grave accusation to government. He hoped when the proper time for discussion arrived, that gentlemen would not be governed by passion in their consideration of it, but be influenced by the principles of reason and sound sense.

, that the time had come when all those exclusive charters were to be abolished, by which the community at large always suffered for the gain of a few. Full of faults as was the paper lately sent by the government to the Bank, he entirely concurred in that passage of it which put an end to the hope of a renewal of the Bank charter. As the word "lottery" was introduced in the accounts called for, he was anxious to know how it had happened that the pledge given by the government two or three years ago for the extinction of lotteries in that year had not been fulfilled? It seemed to him that these lotteries were to be carried on perpetually; two of them were still advertised. How had this happened?

replied, that on the subject of lotteries it was true, and he ought to take blame to himself that it was so, that when he had brought in his former bill, an adequate provision was not made for their speedier extinction. When he had moved the resolution in the year 1823, upon which the lottery bill was founded, he was not sufficiently aware of the mode in which these lotteries were practically conducted. It was never the custom, he had since ascertained, that they should be drawn in the same year, for the service of which they had been voted. The consequence was, that the lottery for one year spread over one or more future years, and hence arose the apparent inconsistency between the pledge he had given and the fact which the hon. member had stated, of the prolongation of these lotteries. There were now, however, only two of them remaining to be drawn, and these must be concluded within the present year, and he pledged himself that they should be the last.

condemned in the strongest terms the policy of government, in breaking down the old commercial system of the country, to make way for theoretical notions of a mischievous tendency. He alluded chiefly to the condition into which the silk trade had been thrown, and the manner in which government, whilst sweeping away other charters, were ready to set up a charter against that class of traders who deserved their encouragement.

gave notice that on Thursday next, he would move for an account of all the issues of gold coin at the Bank from July 1823 to the 1st of February 1826. In 1823, he believed the 1l. and 2l. notes had been entirely withdrawn from circulation, and he meant to show what portion of the amount had been supplied by specie, for the purpose of exposing the fallacy which prevailed respecting the real quantity of cash required for the circulation of the country. There was a great deal of gold coin, it should be always remembered, which remained in the hands of bankers, without being issued at all in the manner supposed. He should move for these returns, that the House might be in possession of all the information of which the subject was susceptible. On the present occasion, he begged to move for a return of Bank notes in circulation on the 1st and 15th of each month, for six months, to the 1st of February inclusive, and the same return of Bank post bills.

, while he had no objection to the production of these returns, because, under existing circumstances, he thought a case was made out to call for them, begged to enter his protest against such motions being considered as mere matters of course. Neither the Bank nor the government opposed the production of these returns; protesting, however, against their consent being taken as a matter of course.

thanked the right hon. gentleman for the manner in which lie had delivered the consent of the Bank; for certainly this information ought not always to be given as a matter of right. Indeed so impressed were the Bank proprietors of the injury to the public interests which might follow these constant disclosures of the state of the Bank affairs, that they had by large majorities refused to grant them in general courts. The directors were ready to give every necessary information; though he renewed their protest against its being called for as a matter of course.

condemned this mystery on the part of the Bank of England, and preferred publicity as by far the better course, both for the Bank and the country. They had the example of the Bank of France in favour of the public inspection of such accounts, and it ought to encourage similar publicity in this country.

said, that the Bank proprietors might refuse to call for the accounts, from a confidence in their directors, but it did not follow that parliament should participate in the same confidence. He did not mean to say whether parliament confided, or did not, in that body, for he would decide on each case as it arose. With reference to the stoppage of the stamping of country bank notes, it was, on the part of ministers, a glaring violation of the existing law, and ought not to have been done without notice. Did the government mean to continue the instructions already sent to the board, to prevent the further stamping. If they did, he would tell the right hon. gentleman that the proceeding would cast such a discredit on the country bank notes, as to throw the local circulation in every corner of the kingdom into the greatest confusion. The effect would necessarily be, that the panic, which was said to be subsiding, must become perpetuated. There was no analogy between the mode of effecting this matter, and the regulating the duty on thrown silk; for, in the latter, the thing was cautiously done, and proper security was received from the parties. But was any security here taken for the loss of revenue which the country would suffer from stopping the stamping of country bank notes

said, that government had been induced to send that order to the Stamp-office, that advantage might not be taken by the country bankers to get stamped an unusual quantity of notes; by which means the effect of the proposed measure would be forestalled. He did not intend to deny, that the issuing such an order might require an act of indemnity from parliament, but he trusted, when the necessity of the case was taken into consideration, that the House would not impute such a proceeding to any improper motive.

did not mean to say, that ministers were actuated by improper motives; but he believed that in this, as in many other instances, they had committed a great error in judgment, and fallen into heavy mistakes. Why not have mentioned their intention? The parties would then have, known their real situation? The ministers might rely upon it, that this harsh and abrupt measure would deteriorate the local currency, and keep alive the panic which they thought had subsided.

approved of the course adopted by government. If they had not stopped the stamping of country notes, the consequence would have been, that the country banks might have supplied themselves for a year to come, by which means the laudable intention of government would have been defeated. He granted that such a proceeding was illegal; but, in a case of so much importance, the duty of government was, to weigh what would be of the least inconvenience to the public; and, in his opinion, they had chosen the right course.

was surprised at the lightness with which his hon. friend appeared to treat the subject. He supposed his hon. friend was not aware that every country bank had taken out and paid for a license, which entitled them to get notes stamped up to next October, under the sanction of an act of parliament. He was glad to see the right hon. gentleman treat the subject more seriously.

disclaimed having recommended the measure; but did not apprehend the same consequences from it as his hon. friend.

beheld the measure with great alarm. From the information which he had received from the country, he could add his testimony to what had been stated by his hon. friend, of the effect which it was likely to have in deteriorating the country bank notes. He regretted that government had taken, upon its own authority, to effect this object in so strong and unconstitutional a manner, without the previous interposition of parliament. He had heard of notes being sent up to be stamped, and which were expected back to meet previously formed engagements. Let the House contemplate the inconvenience which must follow from such a state of things. He hoped ministers would re-consider the matter before it was too late, or else the agricultural distress of 1821 and 1822 would return upon the country with redoubled force.

was no advocate for the banking system, but must condemn the measures which were in contemplation. After encouraging extensive circulation, it ill became ministers so abruptly to suspend it.

thought the measure most salutary. In proposing it, government had not led, but followed, the public mind, which was unequivocally in favour of it. The injury done to the private bankers was not so extensive as was represented; For, without any enactment on the subject, that species of circulation would have ceased to exist before the expiration of a year. Perhaps the measure in question might have been rendered unnecessary by a resolution, declaring that all notes issued since the 4th of February, should be recalled from circulation. In taking it, however, ministers were fully justified.