Commons Chamber

rose to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice. He said, he would take the liberty of prefacing the appeal which he was about to make to the House, by reading that part of his Majesty's gracious Speech which referred to the particular subject that he was about to bring more immediately under their consideration. The right hon. gentleman then read the following passage:—

"My Lords and Gentlemen—The state of Ireland has been the object of his Majesty's continued solicitude.

"His Majesty laments that, in that part of the United Kingdom, an Association should still exist, which is dangerous to the public peace and inconsistent with the spirit of the Constitution; which keeps alive discords and ill-will amongst his Majesty's subjects; and which must, if permitted to continue, effectually obstruct every effort permanently to improve the condition of Ireland.

"His Majesty confidently relies on the wisdom and on the support of his parliament; and his Majesty feels assured that you will commit to him such powers as may enable his Majesty to maintain his just authority."

The right hon. gentleman then proceeded. It was his intention on the present occasion, to limit himself to that which appeared to him to be the exclusive object of that recommendation; namely, to justify the allegations contained in that Speech, and to demonstrate the immediate necessity for the preservation of the peace of Ireland, of increasing the powers at present intrusted to the executive government of that country. He had that morning commenced revising his painful recollection of the various acts and proceedings of the Roman Catholic Association. He had begun that unpleasant task under the impression that it might be necessary to refer to those proceedings in that House; but subsequent reflection satisfied him that he might be spared so very painful a duty. Those acts and proceedings were so fresh in the recollection of those whom he now addressed, that it was, he thought, unnecessary to refer to particular instances of violence and intemperance: he thought it also probable, that whatever might be the variance of opinions in that House, with respect to the remote causes which had given influence and power to the Catholic Association—whether or not they were correct who thought that while disabilities remained, it would be impossible to control the substantive power of this Association—or whether they were correct in their opinion, who believed that the mere exercise of summary authority was sufficient once and for ever to counteract the dangerous tendency of the Association,—he would say, whether the one proposition or the other were the true one, or whether the truth lay in a medium between them, that he thought he might reckon on the unanimous opinion of the House on this point; namely, that the existence of such a body was inconsistent with the exercise of regular government, and totally incompatible with the due administration of the law. He did not mean to enter into those causes which had given rise to the Association; he asked only for that admission which he had already heard amply made on the opposite side of the House—that it was not consistent with the exercise of the functions of the regular government, that the existence of the Catholic Association should be any longer allowed, and therefore he should be spared the pain of stating any particular circumstances which might have the effect of creating irritation or ill-feeling; He had taken a certain course, and he would not depart from it; and he hoped, notwithstanding all the difficulties by which that course was encircled, that in the end he should be the humble instrument of softening down the acrimony of religious feelings, and of introducing a more harmonious state of things. It was the intention of the government to suppress the Roman Catholic Association; and he would ask, could it be doubted that the existence of such a body was inconsistent with the spirit of the constitution? Could it be suffered that a society of this kind, whose objects were indefinite, and might be changed at pleasure, could be allowed to exercise its power? Could it be denied that it was inconsistent with the public tranquillity and dangerous to the public safety? He believed that an immediate assent would be given to these different propositions; and their truth he could maintain by reference to a regular correspondence, which had been kept up with the government from various parts of Ireland. Whatever might be the feelings of gentlemen on other points contained in the Speech from the Throne, he was sure the House would look with approbation to the recommendation of his majesty in this particular—that they would enable his majesty to maintain his just authority, and therefore that they would, with that view, acquiesce in a legislative enactment, by which the future meetings of the Catholic Association would be prohibited and prevented. He believed that those who looked forward to the settlement of the Catholic question, who cherished the hope of seeing a conciliatory arrangement of the Roman Catholic claims speedily carried into effect—he believed that they must feel, that the continued existence of the Roman Catholic Association, during the discussion which must take place on that great question, would in itself oppose an almost insuperable barrier to the satisfactory accomplishment of the object which they had so much at heart. Where the passions were heated and excited to the extent to which they unfortunately were in Ireland, the most devoted advocate of the Catholic claims must acknowledge, that the constant discussion of the measures, and intentions of government in the Association, would render it totally impossible for the legislature to arrive at any satisfactory adjustment of the question. He therefore would say to those who thought with him that it was necessary to put down the Association, that the time had come when that body ought to be suppressed, as dangerous and unconstitutional; and he asked of those who looked to the satisfactory settlement of the Catholic question as the only mode by which permanent tranquillity could be secured—he asked of them, on different grounds, to come to one common conclusion, for the benefit of that cause which they supported, for the general interest of the country, and for the ultimate advantage of religion itself; namely, that the Catholic Association should henceforth cease to exist.

His confidence in the intelligence of those persons, his firm reliance on their good sense—be the causes which gave rise to the Association what they might—relieved him from the necessity of dwelling on individual acts which had been done by the Catholic Association; but he thought that he was bound, as a vindication of the intended measures, to make some observations on the present state of society in Ireland, as constituting the justification of the demand for that additional authority, which the bill that he meant to propose would impart to the government. He should do this also with another view,—for the purpose of attempting to convince his hon. friends, who concurred in the same common view, as to the danger of granting concession to the Roman Catholics, of the necessity which existed for adopting a different course. He would lay before them some details of the present state of society in Ireland, in order that, having done so, he might lead them deliberately to consider, not merely whether additional powers were necessary for the executive government, but whether there was not just and sufficient grounds to break up the present state of things, with reference to the Roman Catholics, in Ireland. He would go into these details for the purpose of afterwards imploring them to consider dispassionately, whether there was a chance of permanent peace and tranquillity being maintained in Ireland, if the government remained divided as it had been—if the House of Lords and the House of Commons were still to come to different conclusions with respect to that great question, which all admitted to be intimately connected with the happiness of the sister island. He would demand of them, whether it was possible to secure tranquillity in Ireland, if they went on, from year to year, as they had hitherto done, with the Catholic question. The parties for and against it were nicely balanced. At one time the supporters of the question were just strong enough to control those who were opposed to it. At another the opponents of the Roman Catholics were successful. If they were to proceed in this way, a majority of three appearing in favour of concession in one year, and a majority of six against it in the next, it was impossible to hope for tranquillity in Ireland: a state of extreme excitation must be the necessary consequence. In this manner they had been proceeding for the last sixteen years, and the same results would be obtained, if they pursued a similar course for a century. While such a state of disunion prevailed, was there, he would ask, on either side, the most distant hope of tranquillity for Ireland? He would assert that there was not. Some one therefore, must make sacrifices. [Hear, hear.] He knew that, according to the ideas of some, they might go on, as they had formerly done, opposing those opinions which were favourable to the Claims of the Roman Catholics. Certainly they might; but he contended, that if they did so, they would not consult the true interests of the British empire; and above all, they would not take the best course for giving security to the Protestants, nor for protecting the privileges of our Protestant constitution. It was because he felt this, it was because, looking back to the past, and forward to the future—he was persuaded, if the two parties remained so nicely balanced, that a gigantic power would rise out of their dissensions superior to them both; it was because this appeared inevitable to him, that he had taken a different course from that which he had formerly pursued. His great object was, to maintain the Protestant interest inviolable—to consult the safety of the Protestant establishment—and, at the same time, to ensure the peace and tranquillity of Ireland. He had not abandoned his opinions; but he had changed his course; and he contended that he had a right to do so, when he considered the critical state of the country. There was at present, and there had long been, a nicely—balanced state of public opinion on this great question. That balance could not be maintained, beneficially for the empire; and it was impossible for them to go on any longer opposing and controlling each other, with different success, so far as respected this question. Those who watched with anxiety for the safety and security of the country, must see, that, by tranquillizing Ireland, they would ultimately promote the best interests of England. That which he recommended was not a measure forced on them by intimidation. They did not bow to any power: they judged and acted for themselves. They could not deny the fact, that, in carrying on the government of this country for the last five and twenty years, notwithstanding the strong opinion of his late majesty, with respect to the Catholic question, individuals friendly to that question were employed in the government. Hence division constantly arose. Mr. Pitt, whose opinions on this subject were well known, whose sentiments were an record, would not have retired from office, if it had been possible for him to have conducted this question, with adequate energy, to a successful conclusion. But, constituted as the administration was, that could not be effected; and, for the last twenty-five years, the government of the country had been confided to individuals, some of whom were in favour of, and others opposed to, the claims of the Roman Catholics. In times of great public danger, it was not difficult to induce men, though differing upon some points, to unite in one common course of action to avert a national calamity. Thus it was that Mr. Pitt, lord Melville, lord Castlereagh, and others who were friendly to the claims of the Catholics, were contented to act, at a period of peril, with men who felt differently on that subject; but still their disunion must have been attended with evil consequences. Now this very fact, that during the long period which he had mentioned, when the men who held the highest posts in the administration of the government entertained opinions favourable to the Roman Catholics, and yet could not effect their favourite object, convinced him, that for the future, they could not hope that an administration could possibly be formed, able to command the confidence of this country, and to place Ireland permanently in a state of peace, unless there was an union of feeling upon this point.

That was the position which he was anxious to support; and if that position were true, as he believed it to be, he would entreat the House, and his honourable friends, to listen to some details relative to the present situation of Ireland, which had reference not only to the present measure but to that which would he brought forward at a future time; and, having heard those details, he would beg of them to reflect, whether it was wise or prudent, that the country should be governed by divided councils—he would entreat of them to consider seriously, whether something ought not to be clone for the purpose of terminating that conflict of opinion which had so long divided the people of Ireland. He well knew the great unwillingness of individuals to hear details of this kind; but he believed, at the same time, that the deep anxiety which prevailed on this subject would overpower every feeling of that description, and would prevent the reference to those documents from being tedious to the House. He felt it the more necessary to call the attention of gentlemen to these statements, because in such details would be found the vindication of his character and conduct, for the step he had taken. The House would see in these statements, why be was inclined to think that there was more good to be derived in attempting a satisfactory adjustment of the Catholic question, than in leaving it in its present state of uncertainty. Gentlemen would perceive from a perusal of these documents, why he was of opinion, that there was more safety in that course for the empire, and more security for the Protestant interest and the Protestant establishment, than in suffering it to remain as it was, neglected or oppressed by a divided or a hostile government. He had extracted from the numerous and painful detail of unpleasant circumstances, which had pressed on the officers of the Irish government within the last six months to a greater degree than had ever before happened, sufficient, as he believed, to bear out all he had said. He had selected some specimens of the correspondence addressed to the government, which would show the critical state of Ireland. In doing this he could assure his honourable friends that he did not mean, in the slightest degree, to alarm their pride, as men determined to resist intimidation: he wished merely to present the facts to them, and he would suggest to them a calm consideration of those facts, as men anxious for the safety of the country, and desirous of promoting the general peace and tranquillity. He would present these details; first, with reference to the public peace of Ireland as it had been endangered during the last six months; secondly, with reference to the state of society in Ireland, as regarded the relations between man and man; and, thirdly, as respected the interests of those whom it was confessed on all sides we were especially bound to protect—the interests of the Protestant population of that country. It was very well for some persons to exclaim, "Let us persevere in resisting those claims;" but what effect was such continued resistance likely to produce? He asked gentlemen to consider that point coolly and deliberately; and he conjured them, by the interest which they must feel in preserving tranquillity in Ireland, not precipitately to defeat a measure which was calculated to have the effect of securing peace and concord.

Soon after the close of the last session of parliament, his conviction was decided—his mind was perfectly made up on the subject—that it was absolutely necessary that the whole condition of Ireland should be taken into consideration, with a view to the permanent settlement of the question that regarded the civil disabilities of the Catholics, and he confessed that he did not anticipate that this determination would be so confirmed by the events which had intervened since that period. Let gentlemen observe, that he was not going to state any thing with a view to create alarm. He was not going to say, that there was any circumstance in what he was about to state, that could have the effect of forcing or compelling government to take any particular course. This empire was at peace with the whole world; but it was because we were at peace, that we ought not to lose the opportunity of setting this question at rest. It was because we had not for the last three or four hundred years been in such a state of tranquillity—It was because for the three hundred years our relations of amity had not been knit so closely with all the powers of the world as they were at that moment.—It was because the Protestant spirit of Ireland had shewn a determination to resist and to sacrifice every thing in a struggle rather than their honour—It was because we were happily placed in such a situation as to be able to take any course which might appear to the House, fittest and best, that he now asked them to give the subject their most mature consideration, and implored them not to throw away the opportunity thus happily afforded them.

The first subject to which he should call the attention of the House was that which related to the preservation of the public peace in Ireland; and upon that subject he should lay before the House certain details which he had selected from the correspondence which had been submitted to his majesty's government during the last six months. Towards the close of the last summer, during the month of September, it was notorious that bands of peasants, to the number of eight or ten thousand paraded through various parts of the country in a sort of military array. Those assemblies consisted of various parties; their object was not directly to attack each other: they were assembled for purposes hardly to be defined; but still they presented an array such as no man could treat with contempt, or view without apprehension. It was better that they should know the whole truth; and he hoped the House would permit him to go through the correspondence to the extent which he might conceive necessary; not only to show that the measures he was about to propose were called for, but to give an answer to the question that had been so often put to him, as to what circumstances had induced him to arrive at a conclusion so different from that which he had heretofore formed? And here he would observe, that he had selected the letters which he was about to read to the House from the correspondence of persons of no side in politics, of no colour in party—from persons who could have had no possible motive for misleading the government—from persons who could not have desired to exaggerate their statements beyond the boundaries of truth. The state of Ireland for some time past was such as to oblige the government to employ persons who acted directly under the orders of the government, and who were to the government only responsible. They could, therefore, have had no possible object in mis-stating facts, or misleading the govern ment by which they were employed. The first letter he should read was one forwarded to the government by Major Carter—a gentleman whose name was universally respected in Ireland, and who was known to every individual in the House connected with that country to be as distinguished for the veracity of his statements, as for the urbanity of his manners and the energy of his conduct. This letter was as follows:—

"Cashel, 17th September, 1828.

"Sir; I have the honour to inform you, that, on Sunday, the 14th instant, there were three parades or assemblages of the peasantry, dressed and arrayed precisely as described in my former reports hereon; viz. at Temple-more, seventeen miles hence, between three and four thousand cavalry and infantry, having drums, fifes, and banners, and attended by about ten thousand people, the majority carrying green branches; at Killenaule, ten miles hence, fifteen hundred cavalry and infantry, accompanied by about six thousand attendants, with green boughs; and at Caber about the same number. No disturbance occurred at any of those meetings: they have been generally addressed by some influential person of their own class, who, after alluding in violent language to their political disabilities, and desiring them to continue united for the attainment of their object, then recommended them to relinquish old feuds, obey the laws, and thus render the interference of the police unnecessary. Although the usual appearance of those assemblages is ridiculous, yet they cannot be deemed contemptible, because they are in direct opposition to the admonitions of the priests, or interference of respectable farmers of their persuasion, who now find they cannot restrain or prohibit this display of a force mustered by parishes, and encouraging amongst them the worst of characters."

WILLIAM GREGORY, esq., &c. &c. &c.'

He did not mean to say, that there had been any violations of the law by the persons assembled on these occasions, but yet it was such a demonstration of force, that it became imperative upon the government to check and control it by the demonstration of a force superior to it; and he had no hesitation in saying, that had his Majesty's Proclamation upon the subject not been promptly obeyed, it would have been controlled, if necessary, by the whole energies of the government of the country. It would be asked, whether these demonstrations intimidated the government? To that he would answer, that they did not. It was because they provoked a correspondent demonstration on the part of the Protestants. The appre- hension was, not that the government would be stormed—not that the government was in danger—but that vengeance would be carried to a great height between two parties, natives of the same country, and differing only in respect to their religion. Government wished to prevent such meetings, either of Catholics or Protestants, and a proclamation, which must be known to every one, was published. Another gentleman, Major-general Thornton, had addressed the following letter to the Irish government:—

"Armagh, Sept. 30th, 1828, half-past "four, p. m.

"My Lord; with reference to my letter of yesterday, I beg to acquaint your lordship, for the information of the Lieutenant-general commanding, that in the course of last evening, the Sovereign of this City ascertained to a certainty that—had no intention of coming here this day, and in consequence sent off a communication to that effect to every neighbouring town or person supposed to have any leading influence among the Protestants, to prevent their proposed assembly here to-day, in that multitudinous crowd which was expected; but, notwithstanding all the precautions taken for that purpose, and the vast numbers prevented from coming here, I am informed by the Sovereign that about twenty thousand had marched in, which they did, in separate divisions, according to the directions from whence they came, with drums and fifes, some few flags, many with orange and other coloured ribands, and a large proportion of them with fire-arms and other weapons.

"The great body of them, however, have now left the town on their return home, and no doubt is entertained that the day will pass over without any serious outrage being committed.

"The two companies of the 56th Regiment intended for Newry, which were halted here this day, will accordingly proceed to their destination to-morrow. I have, &c.

(Signed) WILLIAM THORNTON,

Major-General."

The consequence of these movements was a determination on the part of his majesty's government, to suppress all such demonstrations, if it became necessary, by force; and he had no doubt that by force the government could easily have effected that object. An hon. friend near him said, he was perfectly sure that such meetings might have been put down by force. To be sure they could. But he would ask his hon. friend, if the application of force had been successful, "where should we have been then?" To be sure, the government could have vindicated its authority by force: it was certain to have succeeded; but who could reflect upon the consequences without shuddering? Instead of this, they issued a Proclamation which ran thus:—

"A PROCLAMATION by the Lord Lieutenant General and General Governor of Ireland.

"ANGLESEY.

"Whereas, in certain counties in this part of the United Kingdom, meetings of large numbers of his Majesty's subjects have been lately held, consisting of persons both on foot and on horseback, coming together from various and distant parts and places, acting in concert and under the command of leaders, and assuming the appearance of military array and discipline, or exhibiting other marks and symbols of illegal concert and union, to the great danger of the public peace, and to the well-founded terror and dread of his Majesty's peaceable and well-disposed subjects.

"And whereas we have received information that in other parts certain persons have been passing through the country, provoking and exciting the assemblage of large bodies of people, for no purpose known to the law, to the great terror of his Majesty's subjects, and the endangering of the public peace and safety.

"And whereas the meeting and assembling together in such numbers, and in such manner as aforesaid, and thereby occasioning such dread and terror, and endangering the public peace, is a manifest offence, and an open breach of the law, and such unlawful assemblies ought therefore to be suppressed and put down.

"And whereas many well-affected but unwary persons may be seduced by divers specious pretences given out for the holding of such assemblies, and in ignorance of the law to frequent the same.

"We, therefore, the Lord Lieutenant-general and General Governor of Ireland, being resolved to suppress and put down such illegal meetings, and to prevent the recurrence thereof, have thought fit to issue this Proclamation, solemnly and strictly warning all his Majesty's liege subjects from henceforth to discontinue the holding or attending any such meetings or assemblies as aforesaid; and do charge and earnestly exhort them, to the utmost of their power, to discountenance all meetings and assemblies of a similar nature, and thereby to prevent the dangers and mischief consequent on the same; and being determined and resolved strictly to enforce the law, and the penalties thereof, against persons offending in the premises, do charge and command all sheriffs, mayors, justices of the peace, and all other magistrates, officers, and others whom it may concern, to be aiding and assisting in the execution of the law, in preventing such meetings and assemblies from being held, and in the effectual dispersion and suppression of the same, and in the detection and prosecution of those who, after this notice, shall offend in the respects aforesaid.—Given at his Majesty's Castle of Dublin this 30th day of September, 1828, by his Excellency's command,

(Signed) F. L. GOWER."

Providentially, the advice given in that Proclamation was not neglected. And let any one consider the system which prevailed in so many different parts of Ireland; let him consider, that a mere spark might have kindled one of the most fearful conflagrations—a conflagration to be quenched only in blood; and then let that person say, whether he did not rejoice with him that the Proclamation was obeyed, and that it was not necessary to have recourse to force. Would any one tell him that it was fear—that it was cowardice—that it was a discreditable feeling, from which this Proclamation emanated? He trusted not: he trusted that no man could doubt, that the feeling which dictated this Proclamation, was the dread lest it should be necessary to have recourse to a power which must have been effectual. This was the dread which his majesty's government entertained, when they viewed the actual condition of Ireland; and though it had been called cowardice and fear, he looked upon it as a legitimate and an honourable apprehension, which the boldest and the bravest might entertain and not blush to avow. He would read to the House the terms which were used by a distinguished officer—one of the bravest among the brave—a man who had distinguished himself by his skill and valour on so many occasions that it would be doing him injustice to name any specific instance. The gentleman to whom he alluded was general Thornton, who, speaking of the events at Ballibay, and of the anxiety which he felt to prevent the collision of parties which was there likely to take place, in reference to the conduct of Mr. Lawless, wrote thus to the noble Secretary for Ireland:—

"Armagh, Sept. 28th, 1828.

"My Lord; it is but fair in me to confess that I purposely used such language, with the view of better securing the ardent co-operation of that gentleman, to prevent, on the part of the Roman Catholics, any breach of the peace at Monaghan, knowing as I did, how highly their feelings had been excited on the 23rd instant, by their having been disappointed in their intention of proceeding in procession through the town of Ballibay, and uncertain as I was of the degree to which their irritation had been increased by the casualties which unfortunately occurred to two of their persuasion on the night of that day.

"It therefore appeared to me to be my paramount duty to use any and every means in my power to prevent a collision between the two parties, from which a flame would have inevitably arisen, and extended itself to a limit, beyond the possibility of conjecture; as the Lieutenant-general is aware that there was no adequate military force at hand, which in such a case could have been interposed, as its total amount at the three posts of Armagh, Monaghan and Clones, including the Gaol-guards at the two first-mentioned places, only amounted to about one hundred rank and file. Nor was there another soldier to be obtained at Monaghan beyond that number nearer than from a distance of twenty-five miles. I have the honour to be, &c.

(Signed) WILLIAM THORNTON, Major-general."

Now, of the consequences that might have followed the collision, as far as the power of the country was concerned, general Thornton could have had no apprehension; but he had that honest, that legitimate apprehension, which led him to dread that inhabitants of the same country, that subjects of the same king, should be involved in all the horrors of civil commotion—a commotion in which the success of either part would have been an equal calamity. Like an honourable man he strove to avoid that which every well-wisher of his country would have regretted if it had happened.

Thus much, then, for the danger to which the tranquillity, the public peace of Ireland was exposed. Let the House now turn to the condition of private society in that country. This, he confessed, was the part of the subject that dwelt most heavily upon his mind. Dreadful as were civil commotions to those who engaged in them, they could excite no fear in him, no feeling in him, but that of commiseration for the unhappy persons who suffered by them. But when he looked at the state of society in Ireland, and at the condition of the Protestant inhabitants of that country, his mind was filled with the deepest apprehension. He would ask every gentleman to follow him in the statements which he was about to read, and to tell him whether such a condition of affairs could be allowed to remain.

"Nov. 10th, 1828.

"The constant travelling to which I am now subject has prevented me transmitting earlier, for your information, the usual report of outrages, &c., during the preceding month. The enclosed detail and summary of occurrences exhibit several instances of cattle houghed, three burnings, six cases of arms taken, six threatening notices, one dwelling levelled, fourteen houses attacked, five persons assaulted, two of cattle stolen, one barony only in the county being free from crime. Two cases of decided resistance to the ordinary process of the law, in civil matters of property, obliged the sheriff to call out the military, in conjunction with the police; the first affair at—, on the 30th ult., where I attended him with thirty police and sixty regular infantry. He also brought a military and police force, accompanied by a magistrate. Authentic information having been received of the determination of the peasantry to resist with arms the sheriff, who had been forced to relinquish a former attempt to execute an habere on those lands; and, on the 6th instant, the sheriff was called upon by writ of assistance to protect, with military, &c., a receiver from the Court of Chancery, who had been threatened and forced to fly from some neighbouring lands, when endeavouring to distrain for rent, &c., under a decree of court; forty military were brought to support the police on this duty, and in both these cases the sheriff fully succeeded, from the awe produced by the forces employed. The animosity excited against those who have joined Brunswick clubs still prevails. Suspicion of belonging to such a society is sufficient to produce insult to the higher, and want of employment to the lower, orders. Recommendations for exclusive dealing are privately and publicly disseminated, and thus invidious distinctions are fomented between Protestants and Roman Catholics.

"In the barony of—, on the 22nd ult., the labourers employed by the—were compelled by a body of five hundred men to leave his potatoe digging. The same body dictated similar laws to the workmen engaged by three different Protestant gentlemen in the same remote part of the county, and some difficulty in procuring potatoe diggers has been experienced by other Protestants. But I trust the discretion of the priests (who have published their disapprobation of such combinations, in the address circulated by them in—, on the 26th ult., a copy of which I have transmitted) will correct this monstrous evil.

"I am led to believe the division of parishes into hundreds, with officers called 'Pacificators' and 'Regulators,' is proceeding; but I conceive the vigilance of many magistrates is directed attentively to such proceedings and the general excited state of the country.

(Signed)—

"—,&c."

Now, he would not ask, what force could be applied here—what rigour of the law would remedy such a state of things? Was there not the clear indication of a diseased mind throughout the whole of these occurrences? He knew not what legal remedy could be effectual under such circumstances, or what hope could be rea- sonably entertained, if they were to remain in the relevant position they had occupied for so many years past. Again, as to the state of society in Ireland, he begged the attention of the House to the following letter:—

"Clogher, Dec. 23rd, 1828.

"Sir;—I have the honour to enclose you a copy of an examination sworn before the magistrates at Augher petty sessions on this day, which can be corroborated by the testimony of probably fifty other respectable persons.

"I have to acquaint you, that party feeling has increased considerably in the town and vicinity of Augher, in this district, and has assumed such a formidable appearance as to cause a dread of the most alarming consequence to the peaceable and well-disposed inhabitants of that neighbourhood.

"I am further to acquaint you, that on the day mentioned in the examinations, there was a fair held in Augher, on which occasion I assembled all the men of my district, for the purpose of keeping order in it, and succeeded in doing so, and by the direction of the magistrates (previously received), I cleared every person out of the public-houses, and had them closed up by five o'clock, when all was perfectly tranquil; and I can almost say that not an individual, except the inhabitants of the town, remained in it after that hour.

"I am to add, that the party which entered Augher, at eight o'clock, about five hundred men in number, came from the neighbourhood of Through, in or on the mountainous borders of the county of Monaghan, and were, I understand, all Roman Catholics; they cried out 'Through for ever! Augher is our own.' The inhabitants then made an effort from their houses to drive them out of the town, and I am informed wounded many of them, none of whom, or their friends, have as yet come forward to make any statement respecting the matter. Intelligence of the attack on Augher having reached some of the Protestant party in the neighbourhood, they, I am informed, went in towards morning for the purpose of supporting their friends in the town, but as the party who entered early in the night had retired, the matter ended. (Signed) —"

Here there was a statement of many persons being wounded, but there was no manifestation of a disposition to make any application for redress to the law. The conflicting parties took the means of redress into their own hands; they awaited the opportunity of retaliation: and was this, he again asked, a state of things which, with any propriety, could be permitted by government to go on? After having been obliged, day after day, for four months, to read over documents and reports, of which what he had now read to the House were but specimens, was it to be made matter of charge and blame against him, that rather than leave these things to go on, he had attempted a safe adjustment of the causes of the dissensions, from which this calamitous condition of affairs had sprung? In making this attempt to vindicate the authority of the law in Ireland, he was principally actuated by a desire to see the condition of the Protestants of Ireland altered and secured—to see Protestant interests and Protestant establishments no longer exposed to the dangers which menaced them. The protection of these objects were motives fully as strong with him as the reasonable gratification of the wishes and claims of others, in pursuing the course which a sense of duty on this occasion had pointed out to him. Let the House consider what was the present condition of the Protestants of Ireland—let them consider the threatening notices, in many instances, sent to them—the menaces of violence, and frequently the commission of violence upon them—the refusal, on the part of their Roman Catholic tenantry to work for them. They lived, not as we did, but in residences in remote places, and exposed to the greatest dangers. The authors of the attacks upon them he held in abhorrence: but, was he to stop there? Was he to be content to pity them, and leave them still unprotected? Let the House read the situation in which they are placed, from the following statement contained in a letter, addressed to major Warburton, of the police:—

"Nov. 6th, 1828.

"Sir;—I have to report that last night threatening notices were posted up on the house of—, and on other places on the Townlands (which are situated within a mile and a half of his post), desiring no person to attempt working for 'the accursed—, as otherwise they should be treated with the utmost severity.' The consequence is, the gentleman, who is extensive in farming, is left by all his workmen, who say they regret it, but would be afraid their houses would be consumed, or some other harm happen to their families, if they would, as they say, 'go against captain Rock.' The only cause I have heard assigned for this exclusive system being acted upon in this case is, that some days ago—attended a Brunswick-club meeting, and enrolled himself a member thereof. (Signed) —"

It would be unjust in him not to state that the gentleman referred to in this letter would not have attended this club, if it had not been for the threats which had been conveyed to him, and for the preceding provocation he met with. He thought himself bound to state this, lest the contents of the letter should produce an effect which, from peculiar circumstances, it ought not to produce. Thus a gentleman, in extensive business, who had committed no legal offence, no act for which he could be called in question, was deserted by all his workmen, upon whom an influence was exercised which they were afraid to resist. He thought it necessary that these facts, which were material to a correct understanding of the subject, should be brought before the House, and he hoped, therefore, that no apology would be thought necessary for his reading them. The following letter was also addressed to major Warburton:—

"1st Nov. 1828.

"Sir;—I have had the honour of receiving your letter, covering one from Mr.—. I called on him yesterday, and from the information I received, as well as from my personal observation, I regret to say Mr.—'s statement is too true. He has a number of Roman Catholic tenants, and although they have no lease, and knowing he can dispossess them whenever he pleases, they all have refused to work for him. He told me if they persevered he was determined to turn every one of them out, and to send for Protestant tenants. I reasoned with him on this subject, and told him I thought it would be a very imprudent proceeding at this time, when the minds of the people were in such a state of fermentation. He seemed to agree in opinion with me, and said, if he was obliged to have recourse to such harsh measures, it would be with much reluctance; but he saw no other alternative left. He should either do that, or leave the country. This was a remedy which had not unfrequently been recommended, and which had been resorted to on many occasions.

"In short, Sir, it would be almost impossible to give a full statement of the unfortunate situation of affairs in this neighbourhood. Until some measures are taken to reconcile those party feelings which at present exist to such an alarming degree, I would most earnestly and respectfully suggest the necessity of augmenting the police stations at—, and—, and—;that constant patrols would be kept up both by day and night for some time, until the violent party feeling shall subside.—It would be a most fortunate circumstance for both parties if a reconciliation could be effected, for so violent is the feeling existing at present, that a Protestant could not go a mile from his own dwelling without running the risk of personal violence, or perhaps loss of life; and on the other hand, if the Catholics were literally famishing, they would not work a day for a Protestant. I have, &c.

(Signed) —"

The following letter, inclosing the preceding one, was forwarded by Major Warburton to government:—

"November 1st, 1828.

"My Lord;—I have the honour to enclose a report from Mr.—, detailing the state of public feeling in the neighbourhood of—.I shall write immediately to him to try every possible means to reconcile the parties. I fear, however, it is hopeless; and that the excitement will rather increase as the winter advances; the people there very seldom have much agricultural labour during the winter, and are so far independent of their employers, and at liberty to show hostility.

"With respect to Mr.—'s suggestion to increase the police force, I really have not the power, without stripping other stations, or withdrawing them altogether; unless a strong force was sent, they would be ineffectual; and to send such, might only expose other districts to disturbance, by withdrawing the men from them. I request the honour of his excellency's instructions on this point. I have, &c.

(Signed) —"

"The Lord F. L. Gower, &c. &c."

He would read no more, but content himself with observing that this was a specimen of the correspondence which, for the last four months, had been poured into the office of the Home Department in Dublin. He had thought it necessary to call the attention of the House to these details, in order to prove, from sources which were indisputable, three things:—first, the dangers which threatened the public tranquillity in Ireland; secondly, the state of the intercourse between man and man; and thirdly, the position in which the Protestants were at present placed in Ireland. He was ready to confess, that the perusal of these communications, which were almost of daily recurrence, had made a deep impression on his mind. He did not entertain any apprehension that the government in Ireland would be endangered by civil commotions, nor, at the same time, was he quiet under the consciousness, that in the event of any such calamity the government was sure; for it was impossible for him not to see that the evils which had made this impression on him, sprang from a diseased mind; and seeing that, was it to be supposed that he could be so obdurate and insensible as not to wish that some remedy could be found for them? He would not exchange the feelings to which the perusal of these lamentable occurrences gave rise in his breast, for the reputation of the hardiest courage. But he had another object in going through these details. He had gone through them for the purpose of entreating his honourable friends to give to these facts their most serious consideration, and then to figure to themselves what consequences they could reasonably expect if such a condition of things were allowed to remain without a remedy. He knew very well it had been said by some, that the only two measures that were necessary were, the suppression of the Catholic Association, and the abolition of the 40s. freeholders. He knew it had been said, that if the government would only act boldly, and press on those measures, no other would be necessary; much less such a one as that now in contemplation. But he called upon honourable gentlemen who held this language to consider calmly whether, in the present state of Ireland, these two measures, unaccompanied by any other, could receive the sanction of that House. He called upon them to consider, if these were the only measures which government ought to propose. It had been said, that if government were to propose them, there was no doubt they would succeed. He was ready to believe that such a proposition would receive much individual support; but he called upon them to look upon the present state of Ireland, and tell him if he, as an honest man, could advise the proposition of measures which, if they were to fail in carrying, would increase animosity where it already existed, and give rise to it where it did not. For his own part, he must be brought to act upon much less honourable motives than had ever yet actuated him, before he so far lost sight of the interests of the Protestants of Ireland, and of the safety of the Protestant institutions of the country, as to reconcile it to his mind to bring forward propositions which he knew could not be carried, and which alone he did not believe capable of restoring tranquillity to Ireland if they were carried.

He had thought it necessary to make this appeal to his hon. friends, and to notice, as he did not concur in them, the views which some hon. gentlemen entertained of the policy which ought to be pursued by the government towards Ireland. He trusted that the House would think that the details he had entered into justified the government in asking for more enlarged powers than they had at present. Doubtless the government would be as blameable in asking for other powers, as they would be in exercising them in the absence of necessity; but, whatever opinion might be entertained upon what was called the Catholic question, he was sure there would be no difference upon the question of arming government with powers which, in all probability, would merely have the effect of removing the necessity of using them; but which at most, would merely add greater force, where greater force ought to exist in times which he would not anticipate. The only part of his task which it now remained for him to perform was, to state the nature of the measure which he was about to propose. He should propose such a measure as would suppress the Catholic Association, and interdict all meetings of a similar nature. The next consideration would be, by what provisions of law the intentions of the legislature should be expressed. They should be of such a nature as could not be evaded, and as would effectually prevent tricks and devices being resorted to, in order to keep within the letter of the law, while the spirit was infringed. If measures were worthy of receiving the deliberate sanction of the legislature, it was well worth while to take care that they should be obeyed. Measures passed by that House had been defeated; and the intention to defeat them had been signified, even before they were passed. In his opinion, it was much better that they should do nothing, and he would rather they did nothing, than that what they did should be evaded. By the act of 1825, it was intended to suppress the Catholic Association and other assemblies of a similar character. The provisions of that act, however, were so wide, that they would have interdicted almost any meeting, and it was therefore necessary that some meetings should be excepted from the operations of it. These exceptions consisted, for the most part, of meetings for the purposes of education, agriculture, commerce, religious worship, &c. It was perfectly notorious how many advantages had been taken of these exceptions—how many meetings for political purposes were assembled under the pretence of objects foreign from those the persons assembled had in view—how repeatedly the technical enactments of that measure had been complied with, while the spirit of it was violated. It was clear, then, that they must enact a law more complete and more binding than the act to which he had referred—that the exceptions, in the proposed measure, must be much less numerous than they were in the last. He was not insensible to the difficulties of making such an act as, in the present state of Ireland, could not be evaded, unless, indeed, they were to pass a law, which there would be no difficulty in framing, that should effectually and at once suppress illegal meetings; but he very much doubted the propriety of such a measure, for it must declare that every political meeting was illegal; and if such a law were passed, and every body were left to enforce the provisions of it, he confessed that, as Ireland now was, he could not say that they would not be improperly enforced—that they would not be enforced for purposes, to say the least of them, very unjustifiable. In his opinion, the more they departed, in legislating on a subject like this, from the general principles of their laws, the more they stood in danger of having their enactments evaded. A more dangerous precedent than the successful evasion of acts of the legislature could scarcely be conceived. He proposed to meet this danger by the most effectual means that occurred to him, while at the same time he opposed the strongest barrier to individual abuse. It was the intention of his majesty's ministers to commit the enforcement of the law to one person only. It was their intention to commit to him, who was fully cognizant of the state of affairs in Ireland, and who was also responsible for the tranquillity of that country, the new powers with which the House were now asked to invest the executive government. He proposed to give to the lord-lieutenant, and to him alone, the power of suppressing any association or meeting which he might think dangerous to the public peace, or inconsistent with the due administration of the law; together with power to interdict the assembly of any meeting of which previous notice shall have been given, and which he shall think likely to endanger the public peace, or to prove inconsistent with the due administration of the law. In case it should be necessary to enforce the provisions of the law by which these powers would be conferred, it was proposed that the lord-lieutenant should be farther empowered to select two magistrates, for the purpose of suppressing the meeting, and requiring the people immediately to disperse. It was proposed, moreover, to interdict any meeting or association which might be interdicted from assembling, or which might be suppressed, under this act, from receiving and placing at their control any monies, by the name of rent, or any other.

This was the general outline of the measure. He thought that moderate penalties would be sufficient for the infringement of this law; and he considered that it would be by no means necessary to propose any measures of a permanent nature. He was decidedly of opinion, that the measure ought to be limited. He was perfectly sure that parliament would not only continue these powers, but that they would consent to increase them, if such a case of necessity were made out. He was perfectly sure that there would not be the least hesitation, on the part of that House, to arm the government with such powers as they might require, if the public peace were endangered, after an adjustment of the other question had been made. That adjustment, he would repeat, would be founded upon a basis which it was hoped would satisfy every reasonable Protestant, and remove every just complaint on the part of the Catholics; and he could not bring himself to doubt, that after such an adjustment had been made, the Protestant mind would be so united, that the law would be effectually supported and upheld. But with respect to the duration of the law in contemplation. The late act was made to continue for two years, and to the end of the then next session of parliament. He proposed to make the present act of shorter duration—to limit it to one year and the end of the then next session of parliament; because he was satisfied, that there would be no objection to continue it, if there should be any necessity for its continuance.

He trusted he had proposed a measure, which would be deemed satisfactory by the House. He had endeavoured to propose a measure which should be as effectual as possible; at the same time, he had been anxious that the character of the measure should be such as to create no dangerous precedent. It was merely a temporary measure; and if the powers it conferred were of an extraordinary nature, it was because the state of Ireland required the application of an extraor- dinary measure. Thus, then, he had endeavoured to perform the duty that had devolved upon him; first, by demonstrating the necessity of the measure; and secondly, by justifying the government in asking the House to consent to it, by the appeal which he had made to authentic sources of information. He had endeavoured, moreover, to perform this duty in such a manner as might not obstruct, in any way, the success of a still greater and more important measure. He would now move, "That leave be given to bring in a bill for the Suppression of dangerous Associations or Assemblies in Ireland."

expressed his great satisfaction at the tone of moderation which characterised the speech of the right hon. gentleman. The language and manner of his speech must greatly contribute to the conciliation of every party. As the right hon. gentleman had stated, that the present measure was absolutely necessary for the pacification of Ireland, and as it was to be followed up by another important measure, he did not, under the circumstances stated by the right hon. gentleman, feel himself justified in withholding his assent from it. He could not give his warm support to that which was in itself a restrictive measure; yet his reluctance to withhold his assent from it was overcome by the circumstance stated by the right hon. gentleman. Another reason which weighed with him in not refusing his assent to this measure was, that it was not proposed to extend the powers of it to magistrates. The powers of it were to be intrusted to the lord-lieutenant, who was responsible to that House for the mode in which those powers were administered. He did not feel himself called upon to object to the motion for the following reasons: In the first place, he thought it a great merit in the proposed measure, that it was to be in force for so short a time. It was highly desirable, whenever such a proposition was adopted, that it should be adopted for as short a time as possible. Then, the very extraordinary nature of the proposed powers themselves rendered the granting of them the less dangerous; for no legislature could consent to their renewal, except under very peculiar circumstances. For all these reasons he reluctantly assented to the motion. After the statement which had been made by the right hon, gentleman, that the adoption of the present proposition was essential to the carrying of the great question of Catholic Emancipation, he was satisfied to consent to it.

said, that, after the candid manner in which the right hon. gentleman had made his statement to the House, he would trouble them with only a few words, for the purpose of explaining the reasons which induced him to support the motion. He begged the House to believe, that in becoming a Member of the Catholic Association, he had one object, and only one object, in view; namely, by uniting himself with the Catholic body to assist them in working out their relief from the disabilities under which they had so long, and, as he thought, so unjustly laboured. The communication made in the King's Speech, at the opening of the Session, convinced him that that object was not far from being attained. Having faith in his majesty's ministers, that they would use the power and influence which they possessed for the purpose of repealing those disabilities, he had a right to consider the emancipation of the Catholics as already achieved. On those grounds it was at once evident, that the power and the necessity of the Catholic Association were at an end. He might perhaps be permitted to regret that the Association had not been allowed to die of itself, which it assuredly would have done when the political disabilities of the Catholics had terminated. Without the repeal of those disabilities he was convinced that any measure which the legislature might adopt for the suppression of the Catholic Association would be of little avail. There was a power in their union against which all parliamentary enactments would prove but so much waste paper. It always, therefore, appeared to him that the emancipation of the Catholics and the dissolution of the Catholic Association ought to have been contemporaneous measures. However, on the distinct understanding, that the faith of government was pledged to use all their influence to procure the immediate repeal of the Catholic disabilities, he should not object to the present order of proceeding. The present was not a fit opportunity for extraneous remarks; but he begged leave to offer to government his sincere acknowledgments, and to the country at large his warm congratulations, on the wise, liberal, and enlightened line of policy, which it had pleased his majesty's ministers to adopt, with reference to the present question. He hoped that the details of the second measure would prove worthy of the grand principle which was involved in it, and that it would be clogged as little as possible with any unseemly clauses in the shape of securities; being convinced that the best and indeed the only security which the Protestants could enjoy was, to place their Catholic fellow-subjects in the same situation as themselves. If, however, the measure should be accompanied by only such provisions as, while they might tend to diminish the fears of the more timid portion of the Protestant community, would not trench on the liberties or privileges of the Catholics, those provisions should have his cordial support. But he would reserve any further observations until the Bill should be before the House.

after complimenting the right hon. Secretary of State on the clearness and ability of his statements, said, that if the proposed measure were one of restriction, substantively distinct from any other, not even the statements of the right hon. gentleman, nor the arguments by which he had accompanied them, would have induced him, or any other hon. member on his side of the House, to accede to the proposed motion. In the first place, therefore, he begged it to be distinctly understood, that if he or they acceded to this measure, it was not as a measure standing by itself, but as a measure forming a part of a great whole—as a measure of temporary coercion, which was to be accompanied by a measure of permanent conciliation. It was not to be disguised—nay, the right hon. gentleman himself avowed it—that the bill which was about to be brought in was for the suppression, not of associations generally, but of the Catholic Association in particular. With regard to that body, although he was far from approving the whole of their conduct—although he thought they had shown much folly, and had frequently injured their own cause, and retarded the attainment of their own ends—he, nevertheless, could not consent to stigmatise them with all the epithets which were applied to them in the Speech from the Throne, and in the Address from that House, which was an echo of the Speech. It was true that the existence of such an institution was inconsistent with the spirit of the constitution: But oppression and exclusion were also inconsistent with the spirit of the constitution; and it was not inconsistent with the spirit of the constitution, that those who were oppressed and excluded should endeavour to make their grievances known, or should endeavour to strengthen themselves by union, for the purpose of obtaining that justice, in their collective capacity, which was hopeless while they sought for it as individuals. It was true that the existence of such an institution was dangerous. It was dangerous that the people of a country should look up to any public body distinct from the government, opposed to the government, and monopolising their attachment and obedience. This was the danger which the right hon. gentleman said it was necessary parliament should consider of the best mode of terminating. Now, in his opinion, it was already terminated. He thanked God that he could conscientiously say, that he considered the power, and consequently the danger, of the Catholic Association to be now at an end. He had often felt it his painful duty to differ from the right hon. gentleman upon many questions, and upon none more decidedly than upon this vital question of affording relief to the Roman Catholics; but he should feel ashamed of himself if he hesitated to come forward and express his opinion, that the right hon. gentleman had done himself the highest credit by the course which he had pursued, in the difficult situation in which he found himself placed. No man who had listened to the various speeches which had been made by the right hon. gentleman, but must be quite sensible, that he felt deeply the sacrifices which a sense of duty compelled him to make. To that rigid sense of duty the right hon. gentleman had evidently sacrificed all private, all personal, considerations. He had sacrificed—and he must have well known at the time that he was doing so—the power and influence which he had long possessed over a large and respectable body of individuals. He had even sacrificed something of reputation. He had sacrificed all this; and yet, in his opinion, the right hon. gentleman had conducted himself with perfect consistency and honour. The right hon. gentleman had found himself placed between two difficulties, from which it was impossible for him to extricate himself. He had found himself under the necessity of abandoning the course which he had so long and so conscientiously pursued. He had only a choice of evils. He did choose, and at a great sacrifice to himself, and thereby proved himself superior to that feeling of pride, which would dignify a pertinacious adherence to an opinion once expressed, by the name of consistency, and showed that he was not afraid to be thought to have been bullied or intimidated. He might, if he had chosen to retire from office, have received the praise of his party, and been lauded to the skies as the victim and martyr of Protestantism. But by so doing, he might have done much to render more difficult the settlement of that question, which, for the good of the empire, was now about to be carried—which had convulsed the country from one end to the other—and without the settlement of which, it was in vain to look for the establishment of peace or prosperity in the land. He might have gained a temporary popularity, but he would have failed in his duty to his country;—he might have preserved his consistency, but it would have been at the price of the tranquillity, and the security of the empire. In congratulating the country on the settlement of this great question, it was impossible for any man on his side of the House to pause for a moment to advert to those by whom it was at length carried. It was impossible that those who had always thought with him on the subject could stop to regret that they had not themselves been able to accomplish the measure, which they had so long and so perseveringly advocated. Let it be their satisfactory consolation, that their persevering endeavours had led to the present happy result; that the cause of truth, the cause of justice, the cause of liberality, was finally triumphant; for the faction by whom it was still opposed were as insignificant in numbers, as they were undistinguished by talent—a faction who resisted every thing in the shape of improvement, or amelioration, in defiance of all changes in circumstances or time; a faction who, having formerly laid claim to exclusive loyalty, now indulged in the most vehement vituperation of his majesty's government, scarcely exceeded by the seditious language in which the printed organs of their political opinions vented their hireling effusions; effusions which would put to the blush the harangues of the most petulant agitators in Ireland, He considered the two great questions as intimately connected. But, although unless they were so, he could not agree to the measure at present proposed; although he was convinced that unless they were so, the measure at present proposed would be worse than nugatory—that it would be destructive to the peace of the empire; yet he could not conceal from himself or from the House, that it was impossible to expect that any measure whatever could at once put an end to all the distresses and difficulties, which a long course of bad government had entailed on Ireland. Nothing short of omnipotent power could by one word bring light out of darkness, or order out of chaos. The Almighty alone could give forth the splendid fiat, "Let there be light, and there was light;" "rebuke the winds and seas, and immediately there was a great calm." It was not to be supposed that the settlement of this great question, which, during so long a period, had continued to convulse the whole of Ireland, which had been the cause of agitation and disturbance, had interrupted all the social relations, broken down the political institutions, poisoned the fountain of justice at its very source, and made the constitution, as it were, a dead letter,—it was not to be supposed that the settlement of this question, and the repeal of the existing disabilities, would put an end at once to such a state of things. It could not be supposed that men accustomed to consider the law not as a protection, not as a wholesome restraint, but as a severe and arbitrary curb as fetters upon their rights, should at once settle into habits of tranquillity and obedience, or look at the law with the same feeling as, he was happy to say, it was regarded in this part of the empire. In the present state of Ireland, it was not only expedient, but absolutely necessary, that there should be a strong government,—that there should be a government capable, when all the causes of injustice, and all real grievances were removed, to make the people feel that there was a power, strengthened by justice, able to maintain the law. He did not hesitate to say, that, as an accompanying measure with conciliation, ministers could not have done less than ask for the powers they had now asked for. If the right hon. gentleman had asked for permanent power, he would have been the first to oppose the granting of it. But, as a measure, not permanent infringement on the constitu- tion, but as a temporary deviation therefrom, giving those powers necessary at the present moment, he assented to it, with the strict understanding that the measure of conciliation would follow close upon the heels of the measure of coercion.

assured the House, that, when he came down it was not with the slightest intention of uttering a single word on the present question. He had attended in his place merely for the purpose of giving a fair and candid hearing to the statement of the right hon. Secretary; nor should he have broken silence, had it not been for some of the observations which fell from the hon. gentleman who had just spoken. That the hon. gentleman and himself differed in opinion on the Catholic question was well known. As he, on the one hand, readily admitted that the opinions entertained by the hon. gentleman were entertained by him in perfect sincerity, fairness, and good feeling, so he expected, on the other hand, that the hon. gentleman would allow that he also was influenced in his opinions by similar sentiments. He was not conscious of having indulged in any of the vituperation attributed by the hon. gentleman to those who opposed the course at present pursued by his majesty's government; and he thought the charge an unfair one. With respect to the measure proposed by the right hon. Secretary, he was ready to give his concurrence thereto, but he was afraid that concurrence was not founded on the same grounds as those adduced by the right hon. Secretary, or the hon. gentleman who had last spoken. He certainly believed it to be essential to the safety of Ireland that the Catholic Association should no longer exist; but whether if the necessity of extinguishing it was now conceded, he would put it to the country and to the government whether the same necessity did not long ago exist? It was an association, the character of which was always dangerous to the tranquillity of the country. He had always thought that, when the Act of 1825 was found insufficient by the government, for the purposes for which it was intended, they ought to have come down to parliament and asked for an extension of their powers. He was sorry they had not done so. But he would ask, what new circumstances had transpired during the last six months, to induce government now to come forward to ask for fresh powers, and even to couple the suppression of the Association with measures of concession? He had listened with attention to the information which the organ of government had laid before that House, but he confessed he saw nothing in it to justify the measures now intended. There had been nothing disclosed that night for which precedents might not have been found, in any given number of months of the existence of the Association. Was there any thing new in their violence, any fresh feature in the aspect of society, any fresh disorder in Ireland during the last six months, which had not made its appearance during the unfortunate reign of captain Rock? As far as the House could judge, there was nothing in the incidents of the last six months, which were not of frequent and ancient occurrence, and which might not have justified ministers in coming to the House long ago.—With respect to the great question of Catholic Emancipation, all that he should now say upon it was, that nothing he had hitherto heard had changed his opinion respecting it. It was, however, impossible for him not shortly to advert to the situation in which he and others had been unfortunately placed by the singular course adopted by one on whose advice and support upon that question, they had been accustomed to rely. And here he begged to say, that if any thing which dropped from him, either on the present or any other occasion, should appear to involve any disrespectful remark on the right hon. Secretary of State, he trusted that it would not be so construed. He must, however, observe, that he was at a loss to account for the manner in which the right hon. gentleman last summer allowed himself to be cheered throughout England, as the champion of the Protestant cause, although at the very moment he knew that he had changed his mind upon the subject, and was about to take his present course. He knew it was the duty of all men, when they were convinced of their error to retract; but the right hon. gentleman had stated, that he still entertained the same opinion on the question of the Catholic claims, though the circumstances of the country had compelled him to adopt a different course with respect to it. The right hon. gentleman anticipated with much confidence the reunion of the Protestant mind after the proposed measure should be carried. He trusted and hoped that reunion would take place; but there was one circumstance which he should regret as long as he lived, and that was, that that reunion would not take place. under the power, authority, and auspices of the man under whom they had hitherto ranged themselves.

in answer to the statement of the hon. baronet, that he had allowed himself to be cheered through the country last summer as the champion of the Protestant cause, when he must be conscious of the course which it was his intention to pursue, declared upon his honour that, at the time to which the hon. baronet alluded, although he had made up his mind with respect to the course which he should pursue, he had every reason to cherish a sanguine hope that he should be allowed to take that course as a private individual, unfettered by office. A circumstance had, however, occurred, which left him no alternative on the subject; but the time had not yet come, at which he could fully explain that circumstance.

said, that he did not rise to oppose the motion then before the House, and he should, perhaps, have been content to have given a silent vote upon the present occasion, if he had not been induced to come forward in consequence of what had fallen from some hon. gentleman on the other side. No one was more aware than he was of the necessity of the measure now before the House.

He had repeatedly and urgently, both in that House and out of it, pressed upon the consideration of government and the legislature the necessity of suppressing this illegal and unconstitutional body. It would be recollected by some hon. members that twelve months ago he had introduced this vital question to their notice, and had called upon them to adopt the very measure which was now recommended by the government; and he had at that time, not only pointed out the existence, but demonstrated the certainty and extent of the evil which resulted from the proceedings of the Catholic Association. That Association, by its unconstitutional proceedings, and its inflammatory harangues, had excited and kept alive those animosities and distractions, the existence of which hon. members opposite so much lamented.—The Catholic Association had gone further than any body which had ever existed in Ireland, to disturb the peace of the country, and shake the authority of the throne. When he said, that he gave his support to the motion of the right hon. gentleman, he did not need to add, that he did so on grounds very different from those on which it had been assented to by the hon. gentleman and the noble lord opposite. They said, that they supported this measure because they considered it necessary to the success of the ulterior measures which were in contemplation. But he gave his support to the present measure in spite of the chance of success which the passing of the present measure would afford to those which were to succeed it. The right hon. Secretary had given to the House a detailed statement of the facts upon which he professed to found the measures in contemplation. He gave full credit to every one of the statements which had been made by his right hon. friend, and he fully concurred in the faithfulness of the picture which had been drawn of the state of society in Ireland, as derived from those facts which he had stated to the House.—But he thought that he was entitled to ask, from what source his right hon. friend had obtained his information? If society in Ireland was disorganized—if the worst passions of human nature were excited—if one part of the population was arrayed in hostility against the other—by whom had these consequences been produced? He would answer, by the Catholic Association. If the public safety had been endangered—if the authority of government had been defied—if the most important relations of civil life had been dissolved—to whom could they attribute such melancholy effects, but to the Catholic Association? If tenants had been compelled to enter into opposition with their landlords—if the civil organization of the country had been dissolved, and a military organization substituted in its room—to whom were we indebted for this monstrous condition of affairs but to the Catholic Association; was there any person in or out of that House who had attended to the proceedings of that Association, and who could doubt that the language which was continually uttered there was calculated to excite the passions of the people to the highest pitch of violence? Was there any man who could doubt that all those rebellious demonstrations which were calculated and intended to intimidate the government proceeded from the operations of the Catholic Association? He was quite willing to give entire credit to the statement which had been made by his right hon. friend, for the purpose of proving that, with a divided cabinet, it would not be possible to carry with success this preliminary measure, which all admitted to be one of absolute necessity. But what a practical illustration did not this admission afford of one branch of the evils which must result from the measures in contemplation? When Catholics should be introduced into the councils of the sovereign, and into the chambers of the legislature, they would naturally be always desirous of promoting the objects best calculated to advance their peculiar interests. If, then, the voices of senators and councillors were to have any weight, what perpetual sources of discord and disunion were provided by the proposed measures! These considerations he thought worthy of attention when they were called on to purchase a precarious security by a surrender of the constitution, to dissolve that principle which formed the essential bond of cohesion in the integrity of our constitution, and to re-construct the constitution itself upon new grounds. He could assure his right hon. friend that he made a very wrong estimate of the Protestant feeling of Ireland when he said that it was necessary for their safety and comfort that the measure of emancipation should be carried. He even thought that the right hon. gentleman himself was convinced that he had made a very false estimate of the present condition and disposition of the Protestants of Ireland; for he had, in the course of the last session, presented to that House a petition from the Protestants of Ireland of all ranks and conditions, including a great number who were not only well acquainted with the sentiments of their fellow Protestants, but also of their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, and who, therefore, were in full possession of all the information which could qualify them for coming to a sound conclusion upon the subject. But, numerous, influential, arid respectable, as were the individuals whose names were attached to that petition, the names which should very soon be forwarded from Ireland would be infinitely more so. He had but one observation to make upon the nature of the measures about to be brought forward. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman that it was extremely difficult to frame a measure which should so distinctly and specifically bind a certain class of offences, as to mute the success of any prosecution which should be instituted for a violation of the law. This difficulty had been felt in framing the Unlawful Societies' bill of 1825, and would, he thought, be found to exist in reference to the measure which was the subject of the present motion.—When, however, his right hon. friend said, that the administration of the proposed restrictive law, and the nature of the cases to which it was to be applied, were to be left entirely at the discretion of the lord-lieutenant, this was a matter which, in his mind, excited very serious reflections. He did not mean to say that, if the law was not sufficient for the suppression of this illegal assembly, the proper authorities ought not to be invested with the power of suppressing it; nor did he mean to say that, according to the proposed arrangement, the power of applying the law would not be deposited in the most proper hands. He hoped, however, that the measure to be adopted would not only be sufficient to suppress the present Association, but to prevent the revival of it, or of any similar body at any future period. He hoped, however, that, whilst the contemplated measure answered the description which he had given, it would not in any degree infringe on the liberty of his majesty's loyal subjects in Ireland, who had been always ready, on the first intimation, to bow to the laws of the country. In 1825, when the bill for the suppression of Secret Societies in Ireland was passed, there existed in that country a number of Orange societies of high respectability, and which had been long established: no sooner, however, was the act in question passed, than those bodies assembled and dissolved themselves; thus giving the most undoubted proof of their loyalty by anticipating the wishes of government.

said, he did not intend to follow the last speaker through his long, learned, and luminous speech. He must protest against an hon. member on the other side, who had declared, that all those who voted for the measure at present before the House, were bound to support the one which was expected to follow. He considered the present measure to be the first chapter of the acts of the Apostles, by which a final settlement was to be made of all matters connected with the Catholic question. His principle object in rising was, to ask the hon. member of the Catholic Association, whom he saw in his place, whether he was present in that Assembly on the last occasion on which it met previously to the "Great Agitator" taking his departure for this country? The hon. and learned member who spoke last had attributed the most extraordinary influence to the Association. According to him, the Association had succeeded in making pigs, poultry, and potatoes clamorous for the removal of disabilities. Never was there such an extraordinary power as this. Now, he wished to ask whether, on the occasion to which he alluded, the "Great Agitator" (he would mention no names) did not say, that unless unqualified emancipation were granted, the Association would continue to meet; and furthermore, that when he came into that House, which from an exceedingly long letter which had been published, it appeared he hoped to accomplish by getting rid of parliamentary law and relying on the common law, the first thing he would do would be to propose the dissolution of the hated Union? He was not aware that the hon. member of the Catholic Association over the way had employed any of his eloquence in soothing the ardent temper of the "Great Agitator." On another occasion it was reported that the "Great Agitator" said, it had taken him only six hours to get rid of the bill, the concocting of which occupied the ministry six weeks, in 1825. If his right hon. friend did not take care how he framed his new bill, perhaps this person might again slip his neck out of the collar, and set up another Catholic Association.

said, he was sorry it was not in his power to give the gallant admiral the information which he required. He was, however, happy to acquaint the gallant officer that the member for Clare had arrived in town, and would, he was sure, be happy to afford to the gallant admiral any information in his power, with respect to the proceedings of the Association.

expressed his concurrence in any act which would put an end to the ascendancy of a faction, which already revelled in the anticipated triumph of a civil war. If any thing could enhance the value of this gift, it would be the grace and dignity with which it was conferred. He was sure he spoke the language of the Catholics of Ireland, when he said, that they felt grateful to the sovereign for the boon which was offered them.

said, he did not feel himself called upon to answer what had been said respecting the proceedings of the Catholic Association, or what had been uttered by its members. He could only answer for himself; and he must say, that, unless the present measure were to be accompanied by unqualified emancipation, it would not be in his power to give it his assent. He thought he could prove to his hon. and gallant friend that he also was bound to give his assent to the measure which was to follow, because he had said, that he considered the present bill only as the first chapter; and it appeared to him that a first must be succeeded by a second. Unless it were to be so followed, he must say that he would not acquiesce in it, for unqualified emancipation was the only terms on which he could support the bill before the House. He fully agreed with the right hon. Secretary who had introduced the bill, that its anomalous character, and the extraordinary powers which it conferred on the lord lieutenant, made it less objectionable than if it had been more compatible with what was considered the established form of the constitution. He thought it much less likely to injure the constitution, or the cause of liberty, by a measure which was anomalous and temporary, than by adopting any proceeding of a permanent character. The principal reason which had induced him to rise was, that he might be able, in some degree, to vindicate the accused Association from the attacks which had been made upon it. He thought that what had been urged against the Association was unfounded and unjust. He should first allude to one attack which had been made by an hon. baronet, the member for Kent. The hon. baronet had seemed to think, that the Catholic Association had been guilty of every crime which it was possible for any men claiming or worthy of trust to commit. For his part, he thought the Irish, as well as the people of this country, greatly indebted to the Catholic Association. He would not deny that some individuals of the Association, who were smarting under unredressed wrongs, had occasionally been diverted into language not altogether consistent with perfect wisdom: but, on the other hand, he must say, that by embodying the public mind of the Catholic population of Ireland in a form not absolutely illegal, they had been of great benefit in preventing those outrages which must otherwise have broken out, and of which the country had for many years been in danger. It was not merely the Roman Catholics, it was not merely Ireland, but it was the empire at large that had been indebted, and deeply indebted, to the Catholic Association. Proud should he feel, if he could be useful in forwarding the determination of government; and if what had been called the second chapter was to be granted, he thought the government entitled to say, that the Catholic Association should cease to exist. But if the second chapter should not, by any unfortunate circumstance, be carried into effect, at the period when this bill should expire, it would be very difficult to persuade him to assent to any measure calculated to prevent the revival of such an Association. No man could deny that our Catholic fellow subjects had serious grievances to complain of; and it was infinitely better that a body of men, having such grievances, should have an organ, like the Association, for the expression of their wrongs, and for the devising of measures of redress, than that they should, under the pressure of their wrongs, be betrayed into acts of outrage and violence. He could not, therefore, concur with the expressions of the hon. member for Kent, nor in those which the hon. and learned member for Dublin had used, in disparagement of the Catholic Association. With reference to the hon. baronet, the member for Kent, he was not surprised at the great warmth he had manifested on the present occasion; for undoubtedly there were some expressions which fell from the hon. member for Preston which, although not applicable to the members of that House, might nevertheless excite uncomfortable feelings in the minds of those persons who thought themselves designated by them. He was convinced that they were not meant to allude to any of the members of that House. He hoped that the measures, in all their stages, would be discussed with that temper which would bring them to a successful termination. The hon. member for Kent had said, that he should have esteemed the right hon. Secretary more, if he had continued at the head of the party to which the hon. member belonged; but he would remind the hon. baronet of what the right hon. gentleman had said on a former night; namely, that there were occasions when sacrifices must be made by some party, and in such cases those who made the greatest sacri- fices were entitled to the greatest praise. If evidence were wanted, the proceedings of last night afforded strong proof of the fact that the right hon. gentleman had made the greatest sacrifices with regard to this question. So far from being deserving of attack for his conduct, the right hon. gentleman should be considered worthy of the applause and gratitude of his country. By sacrificing an apparent consistency, by maintaining which he would still have continued at the head of a great and powerful party in the country, he had raised himself in the estimation of all who were capable of estimating what conduct ought to be pursued by an honourable man on such trying occasions.

said, he had not hitherto obtruded himself upon the House, partly because the sentiments which he must have felt on this occasion had been much more eloquently expressed by others, and partly because he did not wish to obstruct the general current of feeling, which seemed to have set in favour of the measures about to be adopted by the government. With regard to the measure proposed that evening by the right hon. gentleman, he did not feel disposed to quarrel with it; for, considering all things, the proposition was made as moderate as could, under the circumstances, be expected. He must however say, that he perfectly agreed with those who thought that the grant of emancipation was the best and indeed the only way of dissolving the Association. When the great measure had been determined on, to talk of the other seemed only a piece of tautology. The hon. member for Dublin had called that Association unconstitutional, inflammatory, and subversive of civil liberty and social order. This language was natural enough in those who obstinately adhered to the illiberal opinions which were now almost universally exploded. But he believed that whatever mistakes and errors the Catholic Association might have fallen into, they had paved the way, not only for the successful progress of the Catholic question, but, he thanked God, to the successful termination of the whole dispute. The hon. member for Dublin had charged them with having been guilty of almost every species of crime, and of all the insubordination which had been so fearfully described in the extracts which had been read by the right hon. gentleman from the correspondence of those best qualified to form a judgment upon the subject. But if the hon. member had not been less anxious to ascertain the truth than to conciliate a party, he would have found that these alleged peace-breakers, had oftentimes been the preservers of the peace; and he hoped that they would be in too good a humour with the present posture of their affairs to take any offence at what the learned member said. However, he was now called upon to consent to a law for their suppression, and in this vote, under present circumstances, he felt himself prepared cheerfully to join; but he was not sorry to have the opportunity of expressing the feelings which accompanied him in giving that concurrence. He felt willing to concede to the right hon. the Secretary of State, that it might have been prudent, in achieving this great rite of national justice, to offer up some provisional sacrifice! But it was not customary to lead the victim to the altar amidst the hootings or the peltings of the crowd, but rather to invest him with sanctity of character: so he hoped that the legislature would not think it necessary, in the present case, to insult whilst they immolated, or to trample upon the victim after they had struck it to the earth. He hoped, however, that nothing he had said could lead any one to suppose that he wished to detract from the merits of those to whom they were indebted for this great national achievement. The author of a late esteemed work had said, in dedicating it to the duke of Wellington, that he now understood why the soldiers of the tenth legion were so much attached to the person and fortunes of Cæsar. To the British hero was, he trusted, reserved the greater glory of extending the attachment from the soldiers of a legion to the citizens of an empire. Having lately had an opportunity of visiting Ireland, he could the more feelingly appreciate the advantages which must accrue to those who were to be affected by this great measure. He therefore personally felt doubly thankful for this decision of ministers, for it had converted him from, a witness of the wrongs of Ireland to a prophet of her gratitude.

said, that without the slightest feeling of disrespect towards the right hon. Secretary, and still less from any desire to embarrass him in the difficult and delicate situation in which he was placed, he felt bound to declare that he had not been able to collect from the right hon. gentleman's speech any distinct grounds for the adoption of the important measure now proposed. The right hon. gentleman's speech consisted but of two arguments—and a disquisition of the evils of the present state of society in the sister kingdom. This was all which the right hon. gentleman's speech contained. But what did that establish?—not the necessity of the present measure, but of that ulterior measure to which it bad reference. He must beg to say, that in the same degree in which the right hon. gentleman's arguments established the necessity of the ulterior measure, it weakened the grounds of that now before the House. The observations of the hon. baronet, the member for Kent, resolved themselves into the question, that if the measure before the House was necessary at present, why was it not necessary three or four years ago? The fact was, that the Catholic Association was a body which owed its existence to the present state of the law; and any argument in support of its suppression, more strongly marked the necessity of that ulterior measure, the announcement of which had given such general satisfaction to the House and the country. Having said thus much upon the general question, he must add, that he was, upon principle, averse to that general system of legislation for Ireland, which had for its object merely the preservation of present tranquillity at the expence of the general welfare and prosperity of that country. He thought it rather injurious to couple the proposed measure with that great and important one about to be introduced, or rather to make this the preliminary step to the other. That other measure he looked upon as a safe, a wise and a just one; a measure calculated to secure the peace and tranquillity of the sister kingdom. But while he delivered these as his opinions, he begged to add that he intended to support the motion; and he would shortly state the grounds upon which he did so. The House would recollect, that there was this difference between the present and former state of the Catholic Question—that if emancipation were to be ultimately denied, then it would make little difference whether this bill were passed or not; it would, in fact, be but adding one drop to the cauldron already boiling over; whereas, if the other measure were to follow, the evil, if at all felt, would be only temporary. Looking, therefore, at the mischiefs of this measure on the one hand, and the great blessings of concession on the other, he was prepared to act in unison with the feeling of all who admitted that concession would be a blessing, and to bestow unlimited approbation on those by whom that salutary work had been commenced. Parliament, he thought, would best discharge its duty to the country by giving its full confidence to the monarch, whose British heart, and to the minister, whose wise understanding, had suggested this great national measure. He admitted that the government of the noble duke might see a good reason for the course they proposed to pursue. He had listened to the statement made that evening, and though he did not believe that any of the proceedings of the Association were secrets—for the whole of their proceedings lay on the surface, and could be known at a glance; still there might exist circumstances, and he knew there existed prejudices, which might render the putting clown the Association a step which would facilitate the greater measure; for (without pretending to know any moreon the subject of the alarms which had existed, than had been publicly stated) he would admit that the continued existence of that body might act as a friction wheel, and retard the progress of the question, for the successful progress of which he was anxious. He would, therefore, bestowing his full confidence on government, and thankful to them for what they proposed to do, not only not retard the measure before the House, but do all in his power, with heart and hand, to expedite it; because by so doing he felt he should accelerate the other.

said, he would ask the hon. member, who seemed to think that the putting down the Catholic Association in the first instance was not the wisest course, whether he did not think that Association dangerous to the public peace and inconsistent with the constitution; and if so, how he could for a moment contend that it ought not to be suppressed? He had heard from a noble lord an eulogium upon that body,—and he hoped it would prove its funeral oration; but if, as it now seemed to be admitted by all, the Association was illegal, he would ask his majesty's government, why it had been allowed to endure so long? He brought this as a direct charge against them. They had heard the letters read that evening, and no doubt they fully bore out the object intended, and proved the mischievous and dangerous tendency of that body. But those letters covered only a period of four months. Had not the Association been in existence for years? This very evening was, to a day, the fourth anniversary of the discussion in the House respecting the illegality of the Association. It was at that time contended, from the opposite side of the House, that it was a body which ought not to be allowed to exist, and the suppression of which was necessary to the public peace of Ireland. The bill for suppressing it was brought in by lord Liverpool's government, in 1825, and on that occasion they had heard the speech of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Goulburn), the then secretary for Ireland, in which was detailed the dangerous nature of that body, with as much horror of its illegality and dangerous tendency as the right hon. Secretary had done this evening. The bill was passed, but the Association was not put down. How were they to understand this? Were the government playing at fast and loose with them? Were they advocating the suppression of the Association in that House, and at the same time basely and scandalously conniving at and encouraging it out of doors? Was that the course they had pursued? Why not try to put it down if they had the power? and if they had not, why had they not come to parliament for such power as would be sufficient for that purpose? What were the members of government in Ireland, or their subordinate agents, doing? Was it possible that they did not see the danger, or that having the power, some of those agents, to forward their own political views, did not carry the law against the Association into effect. He brought it as a charge against them, that they had neglected their duty in this most important matter. After all that had been heard in the House on this subject—after the act had been passed, empowering government to put it down—what occurred? Its existence was renewed, and it went on daily increasing in daring and audacity, and no step was taken by the government to suppress it. He would ask, was not such conduct, on the part of the officers of government in Ireland an encouragement to the body which it was their duty to have put down? How could his right hon. friend opposite get out of this charge? The hon. gentleman, who, as a member of the Associa- tion, had endeavoured to defend it, had only acted consistently in supporting a body to which he belonged, and he believed, that if that Association had not been allowed to exist so long, there would not have been found at the present day so many members of that House in favour of the measures now proposed; but he again asked, why it had been allowed to exist for so long a time? Why had not such a measure as the one now before the House been brought in long before. As to the measure itself, he entirely concurred in it, and he fully approved of the manner in which the suppression was to be effeced; for, as a remedy, it would be more effectual, and would trench less on any constitutional privilege, than a more specific measure. It would effectually check the momentary danger. As to the time, he could not help expressing his regret, that what was now to be done had not been done long ago. He was sorry to have any reason to regret the acts of those to whom he had been accustomed to look up with respect for their consistency and devotion to constitutional principles, but he felt much concern in saying, that he could not speak in commendatory terms of the recent changes of sentiment which had been proclaimed. He felt that the character of public men was public property; and nothing tended to lower that character more than such sudden changes and conversions, especially when unaccompanied by any change of circumstances to account for them, or render them necessary.

said, he felt great pleasure at the manly and liberal spirit evinced by the noble duke at the head of the government, and by the right hon. gentleman opposite. In avowing his gratification at the new aspect of things, he was sure he expressed a sentiment which was shared with him by a large majority of the educated, enlightened, and the intellectual, portion of the community. It was impossible for him not to feel a wish that the great measure of Catholic Emancipation had been unfettered by any thing which might not only appear useless and unnecessary in itself, but called for by existing circumstances, tending to take from the boon a portion of its grace and dignity. But, on the other hand, as practical and general improvement ought to be the end of all political measures, and the aim of all public service, it must always be considered that, in the attain- ment of an object of importance, there must be some choice of evil and some sacrifice of individual advantage; especially where so great an end as the freedom of Ireland was at issue. He, for one, should never forgive himself, if, for the sake of obtaining all that he desired, he were to run counter to the measures of those, without whose co-operation the desired, end could not be attained, and thus forfeit altogether the attainment of a great good, accompanied though it were with the risk of a small evil. He considered that the good which was now promised would be permanent, while the price to be paid for it was small and temporary. It was a source of most lively satisfaction to him, that the true state of the case had at length forced itself upon the understandings of his majesty's government; that they at length saw the wisdom, the policy, and the expediency, of consulting the public voice, and of acknowledging the principles by which alone the true interests of the country were to be secured and promoted. He rejoiced that their minds had been enlightened on this subject, while there was yet time to save the country from the consequences which a perseverance in the former policy threatened. He hoped and trusted, therefore, that this measure would be allowed to pass without any opposition on the part of those friends with whom he had been in the habit of acting. For his own part, he felt so anxious for the success of the great question of Catholic Emancipation, and so satisfied in finding it in the hands of the right hon. Secretary and the noble duke at the head of his majesty's government, that he was anxious to give his most cordial support to this great work of peace, order, and freedom, so long as it was in his power to do so consistently with his general principles. But ministers required no aid at his hands. Their greatest strength would be found in the wisdom of their policy, and their strongest and surest defence in the affection, gratitude, and confidence of the country. He begged pardon for having detained the House with the expression of opinions which, perhaps, were not interesting to those who heard him; but having, all his life, opposed the measures of those who were now at the head of the government, he could not suffer the opportunity to pass of testifying his satisfaction, when they at length showed themselves disposed to concede this important measure of justice.

(Solicitor general for Ireland) said, that having been for some time connected with the Irish government; it would naturally be expected that he should say something in defence of the conduct of the law officers of the Crown in that country. If, however, he had wished to remain silent, the speech of the hon. member for Dorsetshire rendered it imperative upon him to say a few words, as well in his own defence as in that of his colleagues in office. Indeed, he felt it due to himself, to the hon. member, and to the House, to enter into some explanation of his conduct. The hon. member had asked, why it was, that the Catholic Association had not been put down years ago? Why the government did not make the attempt—or why it did not dismiss those subordinate officers of the Crown, who were unable, or unwilling, or who were so base—for so the hon. member had put it—as to encourage the Association and to neglect their duty of enforcing the law against it, in order to forward their own individual views. These were the questions which the hon. member had asked, and though the term with which one of them had been accompanied did not entitle it to the courtesy of an answer, yet he would give it, as due to the House and to the government. In the outset he took leave to say, that he had no difficulty whatever in justifying the consistency and propriety of his own conduct, with respect to the course adopted in Ireland. Whether he was right or wrong, his conduct continued the same now that it ever had been on this great question. Whether right or wrong, he had on all occasions, in or out of parliament, been opposed to the Association, and in favour of emancipation; and in any thing which he had ever said against the one, or in support of the other, he had not deserved the taunts which the hon. member for Dorset had so unsparingly, and he must add, so unfeelingly and wantonly cast against him. He held office before the present administration came into power, and in his place in that House he had stated, that it was impossible that things could remain as they then were in Ireland. He had said this so dispassionately, and so free from an bias of party; as to draw upon him the suspicion and distrust of both. He had then told the House that they must make up their minds to go back to the ancient system of coercion, or to proceed in the proposed course of conciliation; and he had implored every hon. member who heard him to consider the whole question calmly, coolly, and dispassionately. He thanked God that that advice had been taken. He thanked God that government had re-examined the subject with the deep interest which its importance demanded, and with such happy results; and if, after the eloquent appeal which he had heard in support of the view they had taken of it, he regretted what the hon. member for Dorset had said of the disgrace attaching to the characters of public men; his regret arose from a feeling of pity for the constitution of that man's mind, who could think that a change of system after due deliberation was a disgraceful dereliction of public principle. The hon. member should bear in mind, that they met there as a deliberative assembly; but to little purpose did they sit there night after night listening to those who had the advantage of a nearer view of the effects of this subject in Ireland than was ever enjoyed by the hon. member, if they were determined never to move from the same point, the same altitude, and the same position with respect to it. To little purpose could they claim the character of a deliberative assembly, if they commenced their deliberations with a fixed opinion and determination, that it should remain unchanged. This was the language which he had formerly addressed to the House, and eight months additional experience prompted him to repeat the same arguments, with more confidence, and an increased consciousness of their force. The events of every day and every hour strengthened his conviction, that things in Ireland were progressively, and rapidly becoming worse and worse. If, then, he told the House in 1828, that things could not remain as they were, with more confidence did he reiterate the warning now. The right hon. gentleman, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had been taunted and twitted, as if the impressions of his mind had been altered merely by what had occurred since the last meeting of the House; but he claimed for the right hon. gentleman the benefit of looking at what had happened both before and since; and, putting all together, he rejoiced that the right hon. gentleman had come to the conclusion, that things in Ire- land could no longer remain as they were. Other hon. members might pride themselves upon their consistency, and anticipate the gratification of returning to their constituents nothing altered in their views and principles, but the hon. member for Dorsetshire must give him leave to say, that those to whom the security of the constitution, and the safety of the lives and properties of all the people of this realm were intrusted, were bound to look at the question in all its bearings. He rejoiced that those who now directed the councils of his majesty had become convinced of the force of circumstances, which in themselves rendered an alteration of measures essential. But suppose that, in addition to the facts which had been already over and over again stated, he assured the House that there was now superadded all the bitterness of that feeling which tended to poison justice at its very source, and to corrupt it in all its branches, and which endangered the public peace every day and every hour—that, since he had last addressed the House, religious feeling had been called in to imbitter the strife, and had spread its remorseless asperity to an extent which was scarcely credible—that it had been called into action, on one side and on the other, to a degree which alarmed all who were sincerely anxious for the good of the country. But there were other considerations which ought to press themselves upon the attention of the hon. member for Dorset in reference to this subject. When the hon. member attacked the government with not having put down the Association since 1825, he argued as if there had been only one government since then. Did the hon. member consider how many governments had been formed within that period? how many members of those governments deeply sympathised with the grievances of the Catholics, and were so convinced of the justice of their cause as to believe that measures of coercion would not succeed in suppressing their complaints and their assemblies—that conciliation would render all coercive measures unnecessary, and that without it they would be worse than useless? He had voted against the Association in 1825; but it should be recollected that since then we had had a new parliament, and it was by no means certain that the present parliament would repose the same confidence in, or intrust similar powers to, a ministry, unless some hopes were held out, that the coercive measure was to be immediately followed by one of concession. He would admit that some members would adopt the former without embracing the latter course; but he would not now go into the question how far that feeling extended. He would come to what the hon. member had said of the subordinate law officers of the government in Ireland, of whom he had stated, that some of them had disgraced themselves by neglecting to enforce the law, in order to forward their own political views. Of his own conduct, he had before spoken. He would now say, that the officer of government, his right hon. and learned colleague, the Attorney-general of Ireland, on whom more particularly would have devolved the duty of enforcing the law against the Association, had that course been deemed advisable, was as cordial a supporter of the general politics embraced by the hon. member for Dorset as the hon. member's heart could wish. When he said this, he begged leave to guard himself against the chance of misconstruction, by adding that his right hon. and learned colleague was too manly and straight forward on all occasions to conceal his opinions upon public subjects, and at the same time too strict in the discharge of his public functions to allow himself to be influenced by any consideration whatever beyond his duty to the public. He had only referred to his known political opinions for the purpose of showing, that whatever neglect of duty the hon. member for Dorset might attribute to himself, his right hon. and learned colleague could not be considered as a co-conspirator with him. The hon. member should also remember, that for a considerable portion of the time to which he has referred, his right hon. friend, the present chancellor of the Exchequer was in office, and from his known opinions on the subject of the Catholic question, he was not a man likely to be influenced by such a partiality for the Association, as to neglect his public duties, and not prosecute it, if prosecution were necessary. He could state with the most perfect sincerity, that scarcely a day had elapsed since the time of his appointment to the office which he had the honour to fill, in which his attention had not been pointedly directed to this subject. It had placed him in an attitude of distrust and suspicion with men with whom he had long been connected by every bond of friendship and affection. He had watched their debates with the strictest vigilance, he had observed them with the closest anxiety; but he was bound to tell the hon. member for Dorsetshire, that after all his vigilance, and all his anxiety, it was the unanimous opinion of all his colleagues on the other side of the Channel, that it would have been an useless task to have undertaken a prosecution against any individual for his conduct in the Catholic Association, and that an abortive attempt at prosecution would have been worse than useless, inasmuch as it would have created irritation, without putting down the Association. He would not, upon the present occasion, enter into a detail of all the circumstances which, in his opinion, rendered it impolitic to attack the Catholic Association—he would confine himself to saying, that it was a matter of extreme difficulty to draw up a bill of indictment against seven millions of people. He did believe that, baffled and hampered as the legal advisers of the Crown were, the wisest plan which they could pursue was, to confess the real truth—that it was a matter of extreme difficulty to frame such an indictment.—He trusted that he had now said sufficient to exculpate himself from the charge of having acquiesced in the continuance of the Catholic Association. In his opinion, there could be nothing so base as for any individual to attempt to forward his own political views by a partial administration of the laws. He had, however, two duties to perform, distinct in themselves and in the time and place in which they could be properly performed. If he wished the law to be changed, it was not for him to alter it in the administration of his office. In that House he might urge the propriety of making that change; but in his office in Ireland, he had nothing to do but administer it. If he had done otherwise, he was sure the Protestant community would have had ground to complain, and they would have complained, but they had not done so: and he looked upon that circumstance as a strong proof that he had neither neglected nor overstepped his duty. Having told the hon. member for Dorset how he was situated in his office in Ireland; he implored the hon. gentleman to bear with him, while he pointed out some of the difficulties which surrounded the course which the government had to pursue in that country, and he would beg of him then calmly and dispassionately to delibe- rate upon the actual state of the question. The public sentiment in favour of the success of the Catholic claims had been spreading, not for one, two, or three years, but had been rapidly and progressively increasing, and the feeling of the people of this country had been ripening for its accomplishment. How was this feeling to be ascertained? He knew no other way of correctly judging of the sense of the country, than by the voices of the representatives of the people in that place. Without undervaluing the importance of popular accord, he utterly disclaimed any mode of collecting the sense of the people except from the votes of their representatives. If a minister had wished to carry a stronger measure against the Association, he believed he might say, from the state of the House, that it would have been an abortive attempt. The impression of the country was evinced by increasing majorities from time to time. Give him leave to suppose. that this question had been carried again, as it had repeatedly been carried before, by a majority in that House. Give him leave to suppose that that majority should go on, as he had no doubt that it would go on, increasing and to increase—give him leave to suppose also, that the wishes of such a majority should again be defeated, as it had before been defeated, by a majority of adverse votes in the other House of parliament—was there no difficulty, he would ask, in such a situation? But again—give him leave to suppose that the majorities of the two Houses of parliament should concur in favouring the repeal of the disabilities affecting their Catholic fellow-subjects, and that their views should meet with obstacles in another quarter, which it would be irregular for him to mention, except as a third branch of the legislature—was there no danger and difficulty, he would ask, in a situation, which must inevitably tend to produce discontent and dissatisfaction in the mind of the subject towards a quarter where no subject ought to feel discontent and dissatisfaction? He therefore contended, that the wisest course which ministers could pursue, was to take the management of such a question into their own hands, and to disembarrass the officers of government, as far as human prudence would permit, from the difficulties in which its unsettled state was certain to involve them. All persons who had voted with the hon. member for Dorsetshire had justified their votes by their apprehensions of prospective dangers. He justified his vote by the present dangers. The dangers which hon. members urged as a reason for not settling this question were doubtful, distant, uncertain and speculative; the dangers which led him to demand a settlement of it, were plain, and urgent, and undeniable. Was it not therefore the duty, the imperious duty, of a wise minister to accede to the declared decisions of parliament, especially when by so doing the empire obtained a prospect of seeing—its peace and prosperity secured and its power consolidated on the most impregnable foundations? Here, however, he would observe, that the realization of that prospect mainly depended upon the manner in which the present question was to be carried through parliament. Giving full credit to the former opponents of this measure for the most honourable and conscientious motives, and for a sincere desire to support the stability of the constitution and the welfare of the country, he would implore them to consider seriously how far they were likely to add to both by the conduct which they were then pursuing. We had been told of danger arising to the country: and certainly there might be great danger in appealing, as we saw some individuals now appealing, to the passions and prejudices of the vulgar. They were influential persons, and many of them deserved to be so, with the people of England; and if, when looking at public events, they should be inevitably led to the conclusion, that this question must now be carried let them lend their assistance to carry it in such a manner as will give it the appearance of an act of grace and favour, as will make it come with healing on its wings, and as will lull to rest the angry feelings and excited passions of a divided nation. As we had tried a variety of counsels in our old course of coercion without success, let them now join with us in trying a new course under the auspices of ministers, who had had the courage to take upon themselves all the odium and responsibility of advising it. Let them see whether such a course would not be productive of all the good effects, which its advisers attached to it. When he said "all the good effects," he did not mean to have it understood that all those effects would be visible immediately. He would beg leave to remind the House of what so humble an individual as himself had said in the last session of parliament, and what he would venture to repeat again—namely, that the carrying of this question would be doing every thing for Ireland: without it, we could do nothing for the amelioration of that country; with it we might do every thing. In saying that all its good effects would not be immediately visible it was only to guard against unnecessary expectations, and to prevent individuals who sowed in exaggerated hope from reaping in disappointment and despair.—With respect to the allusions which had been made to the quarter from which this proposition emanated, he would only remark, that for his own part he cared not from what quarter it came, so long as it had come. Still there was one observation which, in common justice, he felt himself bound to make. Nothing could be more honourable than the conduct of the gentlemen opposite, who, from the outset, had continued, through good report and through bad report, through obloquy and danger, to be the firm, steady, and uncompromising advocates of this important question. They had now cheerfully come forward to give their support to a government, which for the first time in our history, had determined to take it up as a government question, thereby giving it its only prospect of success. He also felt himself called upon to sympathize with his right hon. friend, the member for Liverpool, that the great and illustrious statesman, who had so often flung the brilliancy of his talents over this great cause, had not lived long enough to witness its triumph. He sincerely deplored the premature fate which had deprived him of an enjoyment which would have afforded him such exquisite gratification. He was not sorry, however, that the same individual, who had reaped the reward of Mr. Canning's exertions in sowing the seeds of the Spanish contest in South America, should also reap the harvest of his great eloquence on this more important and more benevolent question. It had been said with no less truth than beauty, that praises were not apt to vegetate on the tomb, but that if they did, they struck root downwards, and bore little fruit upwards. He did not expect that any praises which so insignificant an individual as himself might bestow on that illustrious statesman would bear fruit to his memory. Watered as it had been by the tears of all the noble spirits in both hemispheres, it little needed his eulogy; still, he wished to offer his sincere and humble testimony to the perseverance with which his lamented friend had struggled, from the commencement to the close of his political career, for the emancipation of his Catholic fellow-subjects. Such testimony was, he knew, unavailing to the dead, and might, perhaps, be painful to the living; but he considered the success of this great question as crowning the fame of Mr. Canning, and transmitting it with fresh honours to the admiration of posterity. May the result of our labours this evening justify all the anticipations which he entertained of them; and may we date from it the commencement of a new state of things, pregnant with peace and prosperity to the British empire!

said, that, after the able and eloquent speech of his hon. and learned friend, the Solicitor-general for Ireland, in every statement of which he agreed, and every feeling of which he admired, he could assure the House that he should trespass but shortly upon its indulgence. Indeed, it was not his intention, when he entered the House that evening, to offer himself at all to their notice; but the speech of the hon. member for Dorsetshire had compelled him to change his intention, and to break the silence he had determined to keep. His hon. and learned friend had given a more formal reply to the observations of the hon. member for Dorsetshire than, in his opinion, they deserved. His hon. and learned friend had successfully vindicated that part of the government with which he was more particularly connected, and which had been charged with the execution of the law, of the non-execution of which the honourable member for Dorsetshire so loudly complained. But, as he had been in the councils of his majesty during the alleged period of such misconduct on the part of the government, and as he had belonged to the cabinet which the hon. member had accused of conniving at the designs, and of nurturing the growth, of that dangerous Association, which had been in undisturbed existence, he said, for the last four years, he trusted that the House would allow him to say, that it was necessary for him also to vindicate his part of the government from the aspersions which had been cast so unjustly upon it. That vindication was most easy; and, strange to say, was afforded to him by the speech of the hon. member himself. The hon. member seemed to think, that the measure now suggested by his right hon. friend, was a very proper measure to put down that Association. He also agreed with that opinion; but, if the measure had been proposed by itself, he should have been bound to censure it as a total suspension of the constitution in Ireland; and he should not have been prepared, whilst the wrongs of the Catholics were unredressed, to suspend the constitution permanently in that country. And that was the short, but as he thought, complete answer he would give the hon. gentleman with respect to the censure which the hon. member had passed upon the ministry, of which he had been a member. With reference to the period to which the hon. member for Dorsetshire had alluded, he was called upon to declare, that the act of parliament which was passed four years ago had undergone long and serious deliberation, on the part of ministers. He declared further, that it would have been impossible, in the way of definition, provision, and enactment, to have gone further than that act did, without interfering improperly with the rights and privileges of the subject generally: and that, from the period in which that act was passed, down to the period in which he ceased to have a share in his majesty's councils, the government had been most anxious to give full efficacy, as far as was consistent with the liberty of the subject, to such provisions of it, as were intended to guard against the mischief of the Catholic Association. When he first saw the mode in which that act was evaded in Ireland, his mind was made up to this conclusion—that there was no mode of terminating the danger arising from that Association, without vesting in the government a considerable portion of arbitrary power; indeed such a portion as it was now proposed to vest, for a time, in the, government of Ireland. Now, he would ask the hon. member for Dorsetshire, whether he was prepared to place such power in the Irish government permanently? He was not at liberty to state to the House what passed in his majesty's councils during the period in which he had the honour of enjoying a seat at the council board, neither was it necessary that he should do se: he was at liberty, however, to state this,—that having come to the conclusion which he had just declared to the House, he could not help coming to another conclusion also; and that was, that, consistently with his public duty, he could not grant to the government that arbitrary power which was necessary to put down the Catholic Association, without putting an end, at the same time, to the cruel system of exclusion which called that Association into existence. Whether in office, or out of office, he never would have agreed to such a measure of coercion as the present, particularly if it was to be a permanent measure, unless it had been accompanied at the same time by an assurance, that the evil which the Association sought to remedy was going to be abated. He trusted that he had now vindicated the government from the harsh imputations which had been thrown by the hon. member for Dorsetshire upon the responsible advisers of his majesty for the last four years; and that he had also stated enough to show that he meant strenuously and sincerely to support the measure which had that evening been proposed by his right hon. friend. He should support it, because it appeared to him necessary to put down an Association which, in the language of his Majesty's Speech, was "dangerous to the public peace, and inconsistent with the spirit of the constitution." He supported it, because it was now more necessary than ever to put down that Association, inasmuch as there was a degree of fearful excitement existing between the two great religious parties in Ireland, which, if not repressed, might break out, at any moment, into actual collision and violence. He approved of it as a preliminary measure to the great work of emancipation, because he felt that, during the discussion of a question which came so directly home to the bosom of the community, that excitement might be still further increased, and attain a most alarming height, owing to the misrepresentations which might accidentally get abroad. He agreed with the noble lord, the member for Bedfordshire, that in practical politics government had often a choice only of two evils, and that consequently there must often be compromises to avoid collisions between extreme opinions. It was the duty of ministers to try the effect of such a compromise in the present case, provided they kept in view the object for which it was effected; and therefore he was prepared to give his support to the compromise which the present government was making between two contending factions, and to the mode in which they were making it. He confessed he saw in this proceeding, embracing the two measures, an anxious desire on the part of government to produce a spirit of concord, and of mutual conciliation. Having mentioned the words conciliation and concord, he begged to say that he for one joined with the hon. member for Kent in deprecating any imputations of unworthy motives, or any thing like acrimonious or violent language, on the part of any of the members of that House, whatever opinions they might formerly have held or might now entertain. It was not necessary for a gentleman whose character was so highly esteemed by the House as that of his hon. friend to vindicate himself from the taunts of the hon. member for Preston. He deprecated the use of such language upon all occasions. He trusted that the House, in discussing this question, would proceed with the same temper, moderation, and forbearance, which it had displayed on all former occasions when it was under discussion. As his hon. friend had alluded to publications out of doors, which were carried on in a very different spirit from that which he had ventured to recommend to the House, he trusted that if his hon. friend should take up any of the publications of the day, and should find a letter in them addressed to the Protestant People of England, by a person of no small influence, who, from his connexion with the county of Kent, could not but be in intercourse with his hon. friend,—he trusted, he said, that if his hon. friend should find a letter from a noble personage, designating the majority of both Houses of parliament as "degenerate senators"^* he trusted, he repeated, that such language addressed to the Protestant People of England, and appealing to their worst passions and prejudices, would only serve to draw from his hon. friend the same good-humoured admonition, which he had heard him administer that evening with so much good effect to the hon. member for Preston.

^* Mr. Huskisson here alluded to the following passage in the earl of Winchilsea's Address to the Protestants of Great Britain—"Though the great body of your degenerate Senators are prepared to sacrifice, at the shrine of treason and rebellion, that constitution for which our ancestors so nobly fought and died, yet I feel confident that our gracious sovereign, true to the sacred oath which he has taken upon the altars of our country to defend our Constitution and our Religion from that Church which is bent upon their destruction, will not turn a deaf ear to the prayers and supplications of his Royal Protestant subjects,"

said, he thought that the Roman Catholic Association possessed greater power than was generally imagined; as an instance of which he might mention, that some supposed that power to be so great as to fancy, that the duke of Wellington had been intimidated by it into a compliance with the concessions they demanded. He did not believe that himself, for he considered the duke was a man not to be intimidated into any thing. In his opinion the right hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department had been guilty of no inconsistency in his conduct. He had not renounced his opinion, but had only yielded to the pressure of the times. "Nil consciresibi, nulla pallescere culpa," might truly be said of the right hon. gentleman. He asked the impugners of the right hon. gentleman what they would be at? Would they exclude for ever and ever the Roman Catholics from all civil rights? Such a course was next to impossible in the present state of society. If the hon. member for Dorsetshire were prime minister in the room of the duke of Wellington [a laugh] he would not be able to carry any measure that could put down. the Association, without at the same time giving a boon to Ireland; or if any such measure were carried what would be the result? Nothing short of a civil war.—How much wiser was it to endeavour to bind in the bonds of conciliation the people of the whole empire; and he trusted that that conciliation would be productive of the happiest results.

said, he hoped the House would permit him to state, which he would do very shortly, the views which guided him in voting upon this occasion.—He confessed that it would have been more agreeable to him, if the great measure of Catholic emancipation had not been coupled with this measure to put down the Catholic Association. He could have wished that that measure, which ought to be, and, he was sure, would be, a measure of grace and favour, had not been coupled with any measure of coercion. He thought that it would have been more manly, more gene- rous, and more wise for Parliament not to have accompanied so glorious a measure with any proceeding calculated to produce an unpleasant feeling. He could have wished that the Association had been allowed to have died a natural death—a consequence that must inevitably have followed, if that cause on which its existence depended had been taken away. Its existence depended on a national grievance; and the moment that grievance was removed, it would wither on the stalk, and would not have required to be cut down by the hand of the legislature. His first objection to the present measure was, that it was unnecessary, considering the course which they were going hereafter to pursue; and his next objection was, that if they did not follow that course it was perfectly ineffectual, for there was no act of parliament, consistent with the spirit of the English constitution which could put down the Catholic Association, except an act of emancipation. Put down the Association! They might as well talk of putting down the winds of Heaven, or of chaining the ceaseless tides of the ocean. The Catholic Association had been spoken of as if it were a corporeal being capable of being grasped by the arm of the law. It was no such thing. The Catholic Association was the people of Ireland. Its spirit was caused by the grievance of the nation, and its seat was the bosom of seven millions of its population. It was therefore idle to talk of putting down the Association, except by removing the cause to which the Association owed its existence. But as he knew that the opinions of many persons were to be consulted on this question, he was willing if the granting of this bill was likely to make them converts to the cause of liberality, to make a temporary sacrifice of principle for so material an advantage. When they had it in their power to build a bridge of gold between the two countries, it was unwise to build only a bridge of iron: he would assist, however, in erecting that bridge, rather than go without a bridge at all. He could not help expressing the satisfaction which he felt, in common with the nation at large, at the determination which the government had at last taken to give peace to Ireland. The measure would open a career of happiness to Ireland, which for centuries she had been forbidden to taste, and to England a prospect of commercial prosperity and national strength, which had hitherto been unknown to her annals. The labours of the present session would form in history a sort of time-mark, which would be found to separate the shadows of the morning twilight from the full blaze of the risen sun: they would be recurred to not as a monument of the crime or ambition of men, nor of the misfortunes or convulsions of society, but as a monument of the calm deliberations of a watchful legislature, would make the authors of them pass down to future generations as objects of gratitude and veneration. His right hon. friend, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had been attacked, on account of the inconsistency which appeared between his past and his present conduct. As to the angry taunts which had been cast upon him by a party, not only stung by disappointment that this measure was granted, but also stung by disappointment that he would not lend himself to the furtherance of their purposes, he trusted that his right hon. friend would treat them with the disdain they merited. [Cries of "No no."] Gentlemen might say "no," but he said "yes." What he had said he had said upon deliberation. He said, that the party which taunted his right hon. friend were stung with disappointment, that he would not lend himself to the furtherance of their purposes. He thought that his right hon. friend had acted in a direct, manly, and honourable manner. When once he had come to a conviction, that the dangers of further resistance were greater than those contingent on the settlement of this question, he pursued a manly course in recommending to his sovereign the settlement, the favourable consideration, of this great question. His right hon. friend deserved great credit for having so done; and when at the close of his valuable life he should look back to the course he had pursued during its continuance, there was probably no one act in it that would give him so much heartfelt satisfaction as that for which he was now so violently attacked. It would be unbecoming in him to indulge in exultation over those who had formerly resisted the Catholic question, and who had now come forward in its support: but he hoped he might, without any invidious allusion, be permitted to say, that they who had long laboured in this great cause, who had uniformly supported it throughout its progress, and who had continued their steady advocacy in defiance of public obloquy and private aspersion—that the men who had encountered all these difficulties would now be allowed to receive their reward, in the consummation of opinions, the soundness and justice of which were no longer capable of being resisted. Whatever privations such men must have suffered, they had now the high satisfaction of feeling, that their time had not been lost—that the best spirits, the noblest faculties which Providence had intrusted to them, had not been exercised in vain.—While he did this justice to the great men who had spent their lives in the advocacy of this cause, he must say, that he was unable to understand the nature of the reproaches which had been so unsparingly cast upon those public men who had changed their opinions upon this subject. It was strange that this should be deemed a reproach, in a popular constitution and in a popular assembly. In the name of common sense, he begged to ask, for what purpose did the House of Commons sit?—For what purpose had the great men to whom he had alluded poured forth the treasures of their well-stored minds, and unlocked the fountains of their eloquence within those walls, except to induce their auditors to change their opinions, and to encounter what had by some been called the crime of inconsistency. At least it could not be said, that government had been hasty or inconsiderate in arriving at its present decision; they had not adopted it before a grave and pressing necessity existed; and he would venture to say without danger of contradiction by any man who was at all acquainted with the state of Ireland, that the measure could no longer be delayed; that, for the last six months, that country bad been on the verge of a civil war. Nothing had kept that unhappy country from the visitation of internal commotions, but the presence of a large regular army; and, perhaps, even that might not have been effectual, unless aided by the wise and temperate conduct of the noble person lately at the head of the Irish government. When the whole population was divided into two parties—when there was not a single neutral man in the nation—when all the links of society were broken asunder, and when a chance spark might have lighted the whole country in one blaze of conflagration, men might reasonably abandon their long-indulged opinions, convinced that the danger was greater and nearer than they had anticipated, and call upon parliament to grant peace to the empire, by making this great national settlement.

rose to reply. He said, that the almost unanimous acquiescence of the House in the propriety of the measure which it was his duty to propose to them on this night, would have relieved him from the necessity of saying one word in reply to the observations which had fallen from some hon. gentlemen opposite; and he should have remained altogether silent, had it not been for the strong, and indeed personal, appeal which had been made to him by the hon. member for Dorsetshire, whom he hoped he might still be allowed to call his hon. friend. The hon. member had pointedly asked him how this Catholic Association had acquired its present power and influence in Ireland? and had then proceeded, in taunts and reproaches, strong but unjust, to assail him for his conduct on the present occasion. "My answer," continued Mr. Peel, "to the question, why we did not suppress the Catholic Association, is, that our forbearance arose, in a great measure, from the peculiar state of disunion and division which had prevailed in the government upon this question, and which, in fact, had so placed us, that it would have been impossible to have effectually suppressed such an association, while the cabinet maintained a neutrality upon the Catholic claims, and refrained from a determination to take the subject into consideration. As long as the government remained neutral, my firm conviction is, that no act intended for the suppression of the Association would have passed, and that the attempt would have only aggravated the evil. But of all the reproaches that have been cast upon me by my hon. friend, the most severe is that contained in the question—why had I so long delayed the intimation of my opinion, that the very worst state in which this question could he left, was that so long acted upon, of neutrality on the part of the government? I had not delayed it. On the contrary, I had communicated it to my noble friend at the head of the government, and I have acted upon it, the very first moment when the subject could be introduced to the consideration of the legislature [hear]. When, however, the hon. gentleman, in addition to his other taunts, casts reproaches upon all the members of his majesty's councils, and imputes to them a concurrence in some species of conspiracy to augment the power of the Catholic Association, that they might afterwards use such a circumstance as a pretence for settling this question; he indulges in an accusation so absurd and extravagant in itself, that I really cannot give it a serious reply. That the government should have wilfully precipitated Ireland to the verge of civil commotion, to make out a good case for the adjustment of the Catholic question, is, I repeat, too extravagant a call for any reply. But when it is said, that there was perfidy in permitting this Association to exist in defiance of the law, I must vindicate the marquis of Wellesley from any disinclination to suppress it, when he was intrusted with the statute of 1825, if he was convinced of the expediency of taking such a course. There was no man more ready than that noble lord to vindicate the authority of the law; but he shrank from the particular task, when the chance of failure would, he knew, have aggravated all the evils with which he had to contend in his government. If I were to state, why we did not enforce the act of 1825, I should necessarily have to go into the whole detail of public events in Ireland during the last four years: and, after all, my answer would resolve itself into this—that the continued division and disunion in the king's councils was the real cause why the act was not carried into vigorous execution. When the act to suppress the Association was passed in 1825, how did the House follow it up? Why, by proceeding forthwith to the consideration of the Roman Catholic claims; and in that very session, and before the Association Suppression act left the House, a bill was introduced, which subsequently passed this House, to admit Roman Catholics to the full privileges of the constitution. Did not that tend to paraliyse the measure for the suppression of the Association [hear, hear!]? The latter bill, indeed, was lost in the Lords; but the excitement continued; and this House, as it were, issued a solemn declaration, that the act of 1825 was not an effectual remedy. When it consented to pass the law for the suppression of the Association, it recorded its opinion, by passing another measure for granting the claims, and thereby admitting that the act of 1825 was not an effectual remedy. These, I say, were the causes that prevented the effectual operation of that law. With regard to the reproaches of my hon. friend, I am not disposed to treat them with callousness or indifference; but I am supported in my course by an intimate conviction, that government are right in the step which they have recommended to parliament, and that, had they not taken it, under the existing circumstances of the country, they would have done any thing rather than what would have been conducive to the support of those establishments, for which hon. gentlemen opposite profess to have so deep a concern.

"I wish not to say one word more of the personal attacks which have been made upon me; but really the attack of my hon. friend (Mr. Bankes) was too pointed; it was more than I could well bare; and I must say, that it was certainly to be admired more for its boldness than for its justice. When, however, my hon. friend feels inclined to be so severe upon what he terms my inconsistency, and to find any defence of it impossible, I am disposed to ask him, whether he did not himself change his opinion in one session of parliament upon this very question, and whether he ought not now in his own just defence upon that occasion, to have found mine upon the present. I allude to the debate upon Mr. Canning's motion in the year 1812, which motion was couched in the following terms:—

'That this House will, early in the next session of parliament, take into its most serious consideration the state of the laws affecting his majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Great Britain and Ireland, with a view to such a final and conciliatory adjustment, as may be conducive to the peace and strength of the united kingdom, to the stability of the Protestant establishment, and to the general satisfaction and concord of all classes of his majesty's subjects.'

"When I ask my hon. friend, what were the reasons which could have induced him to consent to such a proposition, I find in his own vindication at that time the whole substance of mine at the present moment, and upon his words I rely, without adding a syllable in further explanation of them."—Mr. Peel then proceeded to read from "Hansard's Parliamentary Debates" for the year 1812, the following expressions used by the hon. member for Dorsetshire in supporting the above resolution of Mr. Canning.

hoped it would never be a point of honour with any government to persevere in measures after they were convinced of their impropriety [hear, hear]. Political expediency was not at all times the same; what at one time might be considered consistent with sound policy would at another be completely impolitic. Thus it was with respect to the Roman Catholics. What changes had not taken place in the question itself, as well as in the minds of the House, since it was last agitated! [renewed laughter.] These were, however, circumstances which ought not to render the question more difficult to be met, as the House was not called upon to argue upon principles which were applicable to other times and to other views."^*

"I quote these remarkable expressions, not by way of reproach, but as the vindication of an honourable mind, in taking an altered course under altered circumstances, and reconciling itself to the reproach of apparent inconsistency, rather than compromise the essential interests of the country"[Cheers].

said, he hoped the House would indulge him for a few moments, after the allusion which had just been made by the right hon. gentleman. He was perfectly aware of the circumstances under which he became a party to the resolution moved by Mr. Canning at the end of the session of 1812, and was then exceedingly desirous it should be settled satisfactorily. But the moment he had ascertained, that it was nothing short of accession to both Houses of Parliament would satisfy the Catholics, he determined to resist claims which, if acceded to, would put an end to the Protestant establishment in Ireland.—He had never complained of the change of any public man's opinion upon conviction. On the contrary, he had often praised such a correction of previous impressions. But his right hon. friend's change had not been marked by his usual candour: for what had he told them? Nothing, but that his opinions had undergone a total change, upon information known to himself, but not yet communicated to the House. His case was not, therefore, before them, although he required the opinions of others to be intrusted to him by anticipation.— He repeated, that in 1812 he was ready to concede political power to the Catholics, short, however, of their admission to both Houses of Parliament. Whoever took the trouble of reading that debate, would see that there was no discrepancy between his former and his present opinions,

^*Mr. Peel read the above extract from Vol. XXIII, p. 690, 691, of the First Series of this Work.

, in explanation, begged to say, that he did not make an attack upon his hon. friend. But when such unusual language had been applied to him in the debate, as base tergiversation, base connivance, had he not a right to quote the force of his hon. friend's just distinction in his own case, as a complete and satisfactory vindication of the course which he was now himself pursuing?

Leave was then given for bringing in the bill. It was immediately brought up by Mr. Peel and read a first time.

Hansard

Volume 20: debated on Tuesday 10 February 1829

House of Commons

King's Answer to the Address

Roman Catholic Claims

Court of Ciiancery.]

Association Suppression (ireland) Bill.]