presented a petition from the town of Northampton, against the Catholic Claims. The hon. member remarked, that on a former evening his hon. friend, the member for Suffolk, had expressed his determination to oppose, in every stage, the measure about to be introduced by ministers. Now, believing that his majesty's ministers would not have brought forward the proposition, had they not been firmly persuaded that it was called for by imperious necessity. It was not his intention to pledge himself as to the course he would pursue when the question was fairly before the House; but, provided satisfactory securities were obtained for the preservation of the Protestant church, he should not oppose the recommendation which had come from the Throne.

said, he wished to offer a few words, in reference to the measure to which the hon. member had alluded. He must confess, that he could not look with those unmingled feelings of delight and satisfaction with which some gentlemen did on the measure about to be proposed for the admission of Catholics to political power. He considered such a measure a dangerous invasion of the Pro- testant constitution of these realms; but when he saw all the members of his majesty's government, whose official situation enabled them to possess the best information as to the internal and external affairs of the country,—when, more particularly, he perceived that the members of that government, who hitherto opposed Catholic Emancipation, had not only withdrawn their opposition, but had become the advocates of the measure, he could not come to any other conclusion, but that, in a choice of evils, his majesty's government had chosen that which was pregnant with least danger to the state. Those two evils were—concession to the Catholics on the one hand, and a civil war in Ireland on the other. If the latter consequence should follow, there was no man who could look without horror on the scenes of bloodshed which must ensue; and, in his opinion, that minister would deserve impeachment, who could contemplate undismayed, even the chance of a hostile collision between the two contending parties into which Ireland was at present divided. It was, furthermore, obviously impossible that a cabinet could, under existing circumstances, be formed exclusively either of individuals opposed to, or in favour of, the Catholic claims. In this state of things three measures might be proposed to the House,—in the first place, unqualified emancipation, unaccompanied by securities; secondly, the adoption of a system of coercion, unaccompanied by concession; or, thirdly, concession, accompanied by securities, for the safety of the Protestant constitution. That is, they would be obliged either to give, or to take, or to give and take. He conceived that the third course was the one which should be adopted—he meant concession, accompanied by securities. Of this he was satisfied, that the Protestant institutions of the country would be better preserved, and the Protestant ascendancy more firmly secured by that, than by any other course. He would only add, that if the measure which was about to be introduced by ministers should be followed by all the good effects which they were told would follow alter concession to the Catholics, he regretted that it had not been introduced sooner.

said, he was determined to oppose to the utmost of his power the measure which ministers were about to introduce. That measure was not like a turnpike-bill which cut through their lands, but it would cut into their very fire-sides. It was true that his (Colonel Rochfort's) party had lost their leader, and might be compared to an orange without the peel [a laugh]; but that should only induce those who were still true to the cause to be more resolute.

said, he would be the last man in that House to support the measure which had been introduced on the evening before last, and which went to the very root of the constitution, unless he had come to the determination of supporting the other measure which ministers intended to bring forward; but he trusted that, whatever might be the opinions entertained as to the legality or illegality of the Association on all sides of the House, government would receive assistance and support in putting down that body. It had been said by some hon. members, that the Association sprang out of the grievances under which the Catholics laboured,—that on the removal of those grievances, it would cease to exist, and that it should be allowed to die a natural death. It appeared, however, to him, that if the government adopted such a course, they would be deceived in their anticipations. The Association had already proved itself too strong for the law; and though the measure now introduced for its suppression was of an unconstitutional nature, it was, in his opinion, the duty of the House to support ministers in their efforts to put that body down. It was upon these grounds, and these alone, that he supported the present measure for the suppression of the Association. He would take the liberty of suggesting to his majesty's ministers, that after the measure of concession was carried, in order to prevent the revival of those Associations in Ireland, an express enactment should, in the first instance, be passed, rendering illegal the collection of any money in the shape of Catholic rent. The power of taxation ought alone to belong to the government: when usurped by other bodies in the state, the monies collected might be employed against the government, and in their own defence the government would then be obliged to have recourse to strong measures, similar to that at present before the House. The next measure which he begged to suggest to his majesty's ministers was, that no simultaneous meetings should be allowed, similar to those which had taken place in Ireland. No one would for a moment contend, that meetings of that description could be assembled for any legitimate object. The third measure which he would suggest consisted in the putting down of those meetings which had been held in chapels. Such meetings not only desecrated the holy places in which they had been held, but were most unworthily convened there. He spoke in reference to the connexion of the Catholic clergy with these proceedings, not with any desire to give offence, as he trusted that the great measure which would shortly be introduced into that House would calm the passions, and allay the irritation which at present prevailed in Ireland; but it appeared to him that such meetings, in such places, added religious and fanatical fury to the other sentiments which pervaded the minds of those present, and that there could be no safety in any country in which such proceedings were allowed to take place. He was ready to afford his humble endeavours to carry into effect those great measures which appeared to him necessary to ensure the safety and tranquillity of Ireland. He would apply them equally to meetings of Catholics and meetings of Protestants,—to Catholic Associations and Brunswick clubs. When the Brunswick clubs were instituted in Ireland, their formation was necessary, as a counterpoise to the efforts of the Catholic Association, and as a protection for the Protestant church of Ireland; and had he lived in Ireland, he would have joined one of them; but he was always of opinion, that there was no occasion for such clubs in England, and that they would only serve to irritate and inflame the public mind in this country. He had always been opposed to Catholic Emancipation: he was still opposed to such a measure, standing by itself; and he certainly was surprised to hear it recommended in his Majesty's Speech to that House. But, seeing that it was now to be accompanied by other measures for the amelioration of the condition of the people of Ireland, and taking it as the lesser of two evils between which it was necessary to exercise a choice, he had determined to vote for the measure, as the only course which would ensure the safety of the state.

said, he had heard it asserted yesterday, that scarcely two petitions had been presented in favour of the Catholic claims. He, however, was happy to say, that it had become his duty to present about forty petitions, thirteen of them from one county, in behalf of that body. He hoped that the period had now arrived when it would be no longer necessary to present petitions such as these from a long-suffering people to the legislature. As an individual, who, for many years had felt deeply interested in the concession of the Catholic claims, he could not sufficiently express his gratitude to the government, for the contemplated measure of undoubted justice. A great deal had been said about putting down the Catholic Association, but nothing had been hinted as to the necessity of suppressing other associations. Now he considered, that if the Catholic Association were dangerous, the Brunswick clubs were equally so. It was a notorious fact, that, in Dublin, an Orange flag had been seen waving over the door of the Brunswick club-house. Such proceedings were calculated to create discord and ill-feeling.

said, the noble lord had expressed a hope, that the measure which affected the Catholic Association would be extended also to the suppression of other clubs. In the expression of that hope he also agreed. He hoped that the measure would not only go to the suppression of the Catholic Association, but to the suppression of every Association which had grown out of the establishment of that body. He trusted that it would have the effect of putting down all orders of liberators, and other combinations of that class. If other clubs had been established in Ireland, they had arisen out of the proceedings of the Catholic Association, which endeavoured to intimidate the loyal subjects of the realm, and to disseminate discontent in all quarters of the country. With respect to the display of an Orange flag at the door of a Brunswick club-house, he believed the noble lord, on further inquiry, would find that he had been deceived. It was quite notorious, that at the meetings of the Brunswick club in Dublin, no such thing was tolerated. So far from the Brunswick clubs of Ireland harbouring that sort of feeling which would lead to the display of such ensigns, the resolutions which they had passed negatived every idea of the kind. The formation of the Brunswick clubs in Ireland became a measure of imperious necessity, in consequence of the situation in which the Protestants were placed. For the object which the Brunswick clubs had in view, the principles by which they were governed, and the spirit by which they were actuated, he could point with confidence to their proceedings. The report of the Brunswick club of Ireland, agreed to at a general meeting on the 4th of June last, in Dublin, was generally known. In that document, the club had declared the feeling by which it was animated, and the principles by which it was governed. It was known that the greatest efforts were made by the Catholics of Ireland to stifle the expression of Protestant feeling; and the main object of the Brunswick institution was, to remove the impediments which were thrown in the way of the Protestants, to enable them to raise their voice, and to give them an opportunity of laying before the Throne, and before parliament, the emanations of that voice. Their object was truly constitutional, and the means by which they sought to effect it were equally so. They were not congregated for any seditious purposes, but for mutual safety. They did not assemble for purposes of aggression, but purely in self-defence. The hon. member had denominated them "the Confederation;" but he would say, that their only bond was unity of feeling and spirit, in support of the Protestant religion, and of the Protestant constitution, which they saw in danger, and which they conceived could not be preserved by any other means.

said, he rose, not. for the purpose of going into the subject of Catholic Emancipation, but of deprecating a line of discussion which had recently been adopted. He had not hitherto said one word on any of the petitions, and the House would easily imagine, that he had not abstained because he did not feel an interest in the great question to which they related; but he wished to reduce his mind to that state of calmness which would enable him to contemplate the subject with coolness and deliberation. He wished to view it without any feeling of recrimination—without finding fault—without referring to past proceedings. He would not, therefore, make any observations on the Brunswick clubs, farther than to say, that he trusted the hon. member would not infer, from his silence, that he regarded the statement which the hon. gentleman had made as being perfectly accurate. For his part, he did not want the cause he espoused to be supported by clubs or asso- ciations. It might be very justifiable, to form such bodies; but still it did not vary the nature of the question which they would hereafter have to discuss. He, however, would take upon himself to say, that the statement which had been this evening made as to the state of the Protestant feeling in Ireland by an hon. gentleman opposite, was utterly unsupported by facts. If English members were induced to vote on this question, under the idea that, fortynine-fiftieths of the Protestants of Ireland were arrayed against it, they would act under a strong delusion. On this point he would appeal, with confidence, to the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department, who knew that such was not the fact. The noble Secretary for Ireland (lord L. Gower) also knew that the statement was not accurate; and the declaration of the great body of the Protestant nobility and gentry of Ireland, completely refuted the assertion.

declared his conviction, that there were a hundred Protestants to one in Ireland against concession to the Catholics.

said, he would assert that the establishment of the Brunswick clubs, had been absolutely necessary in Ireland. When the Protestants were, as they had been, shamefully deserted by the government, and when they had listened to such language as that used by the leading orator of the Catholic Association, that "the boys of Tipperary, armed with cabbage-stalks, could drive the Protestants into the sea," it was time for them to look to themselves. Several Protestant gentlemen, not averse to the Catholic claims, had found themselves compelled to join the Brunswick clubs, for the protection of their property. He could not listen quietly to attacks upon an institution, which had acted constitutionally, justifiably, and solely in self-defence.

said, his hon. friend, the member for Dublin, had spoken in defence of the Brunswick clubs because they had been attacked by the noble member for Meath; and, if his hon. friend had not adopted that course, be should have felt himself bound to have stated his sentiments on the subject. In all that the hon. member had said he fully concurred; but he would extend such observations to the Orange societies as well as the Brunswick clubs. He was far from being ashamed to declare that he was a member of both. They were equally formed for the preservation of the British constitution—that constitution which, it would seem, his majesty's government were determined to dissolve. With that conviction, he would take every opportunity, as far as he could constitutionally, to oppose a government, whose measures, he conceived, were calculated to bring ruin on the country.

presented a petition from a parish in the county of Wexford, against concessions to the Roman Catholics. It appeared very strange to him to be called on to make an apology for being a Brunswicker, while a Prince of that family was on the Throne. He confessed himself to have become a Brunswicker on purely defensive principles. He entered into that society, because he saw Roman Catholic combinations around him; and the consequence of those combinations was, that every Protestant in his neighbourhood joined the Brunswick institution, on the great principle of self-preservation. He had seen a declaration disseminated for some time past, which ascribed all the animosity and all the unhappy differences that prevailed in Ireland, to Catholic disabilities. But if they traced the effect of those disabilities here, they would find that the skill, the wealth, the security, the prosperity of this country had grown out of them. That which was manna and food from heaven in England, became poison, it would appear, on the other side of the Channel. For his own part, he could not see how laws that were so wholesome on one side of the water, should be so very pernicious on the other, as to induce men, in order to get rid of them, to compromise their Protestant constitution. There was one way of considering the question, in which it presented a very extraordinary aspect. The whole population of the united kingdoms had been computed at twenty-one millions—of these sixteen millions were Protestants, yet they found that the remaining five millions, their interests, and opinions, were to be the leading objects of consideration. He was entirely at a loss to account for the reason why, when there was such an inferiority of numbers and of property in the latter, there should be such a singular position of circumstances:—When he looked at the wealth, education, and intelligence on the one side, and the absence of them on the other, he was utterly at a loss to account for the situation in which the House was placed. It was quite clear that those who in every respect constituted the minority had induced a minister of the Crown to say in that House, that his sentiments on the question of Catholic emancipation were unchanged, but that from the force of circumstances, he felt himself obliged to give way. Now he was a resident in Ireland; and, though he gave the right hon. gentleman full credit for the purest motives, yet he drew a very different inference from that which the right hon. gentleman had drawn, with respect to what was necessary for the preservation of the Protestant interest in Ireland. He would say, that the life of every Protestant in Ireland was in danger. He himself had been threatened—threatened from the altar by the priest; and he agreed, therefore, with the right hon. gentleman, that something must be done, but he denied that the measure in contemplation was the proper one. He could say, that the best way to secure himself and others was to give them additional arms [hear]. He thought so. And now a few words with respect to the Catholic Association. It was agreed on all hands, that the Catholic Association was a nuisance, and yet one hon. member, who had supported the Speech from the throne, had lauded that Association, and boasted that he himself was a member of it. Now, he would ask that hon. member, who had agreed that the Association was a nuisance, who had admitted that it was an incubus, and that it ought to be cut off, how he could reconcile it to himself to acknowledge that he was a member of it? He could only say that, in his opinion, the constitution was certainly departed from by the measures which the government declared it would be their intention of adopting. He did not wish to depart from the constitution, and though he disliked ex post facto laws, and though what he was about to say might seem a little unconstitutional, yet he would say, that if the measure for the suppression of the Catholic Association were not retrospective, it would not go far enough. There were large funds now at the disposal of that body, and if the measure were not retrospective, and those funds were not appropriated by the government, much mischief might still be done.

said, he begged leave to call the attention of the House to the petition which he held in his hand. The petition prayed for the removal of the civil disabilities under which the Roman Catholics laboured. The petitioners were the ministers of the Protestant Dissenters, known under the denominations of Presbyterians, Independents, and Baptists. These denominations of Protestant Dissenters had been settled in the metropolis ever since the Revolution; and they had been repeatedly allowed to address His Majesty on the throne. The Petitioners had last year petitioned against those parts of the Test and Corporation acts which related to the Sacramental Test, and from which they wished to be relieved. They obtained the relief they prayed for. The first act of the petitioners this year was, to return thanks to Parliament, for the favour they had obtained; but, in the next place, they conceived it to be an act of duty, to ask that for others which had been extended to themselves. They looked round, and seeing that there were still upon the Statute-book disabilities of the same nature with those from which they had been relieved, they resolved to petition for the removal of all disabilities on account of religious opinions. It would be only fair in him to state, that this resolution was not carried unanimously. There were eighty-three Protestant Dissenting ministers present, of whom about fifteen voted against the resolution. The petitioners were not, indeed, rich in revenues from the profession of their religion, but they were accustomed to the deep and earnest study of that religion, and they objected to the Church of England, because it approximated too nearly to the Church of Rome. No men, therefore, could be farther than the petitioners were from inclining towards the Roman Catholic faith; but, considering that every man had a right to the free exercise of his conscience in matters of religion, they thought it incumbent upon them to express their conscientious opinion, that religious tenets should be no bar to civil employment. A statement had been somewhere made, that these petitioners had last year declared, that they had no connection with the Roman Catholics, and that, therefore, it was a breach of faith in them to come forward now with petitions in their favour. This assertion was destitute of foundation. A proposition was made last year, that the Protestant Dissenters should join with the Catholics. He, among others, was consulted upon this proposition, and he was decidedly of opinion that they ought not to petition in conjunction. His reasons for this opinion were, that as there was a difference in the degree of their disabilities, and as their cases stood, in many respects, upon different grounds, it would be disrespectful to the House to club the two together. Reasons might be urged against the one which would not apply to the other; and he, therefore, thought that the interests of both would be rather retarded than forwarded by such a conjunction. But when the petitioners had asked and obtained the remission of those penalties under which they laboured, they thought it would be ungrateful as well as inconsistent in them, if they became partners in a monopoly of which they had before complained, and did not express the opinion contained in the petition.

presented a petition from St. Mary's, Dublin, in favour of the Catholic claims. He hoped that all observations respecting the Catholic Association and Brunswick Clubs would soon cease; that all would consider themselves as fellow-countrymen, and, laying aside hostile feelings, live together in concord and friendship.

of the Exchequer said, he held in his hand a petition which, whether in reference to the character or to the number of the persons whose signatures were attached to it, was deserving of serious attention. The petition was from the archbishop and clergy of the diocese of Dublin. In this body were comprised men distinguished for their learning, eminent for their talents, venerable for their piety, and renowned for their zealous performance of all the duties which attached to their sacred functions. He had long been personally acquainted with many of them, and could assure the House that, in addition to the high qualifications he had mentioned, they added another, which he was sure would be properly estimated there—that of coming to that House without any thing like hostile feelings to the persons against whose claims they petitioned. They were actuated solely by an earnest desire to protect those interests which had been committed to their charge, and which they believed would be endangered by further concessions to the Roman Catholics. Long as this question had been agitated in parliament, this was only the third occasion in which the petitioners had come forward; and on neither of those occasions had they used any terms of hostility against those to whom they were in the habit of tendering at once spiritual and temporal consolation. The petitioners stated, that though they had long forborne to present petitions to that House, yet that lately the attacks against the Protestant establishment in Ireland had been more direct; that those attacks had been publicly professed; that the establishment itself had been declared a curse to the country; and that they believed they should fail in their duty if they did not now come forward and pray of that House to protect, against the machinations of the Catholics, an establishment which, under divine Providence, had hitherto flourished so prosperously. He was sure that the Parliament would think that the petitioners were bound to ask for the protection of their privileges, and that the Parliament would also think that it was bound to grant that protection. On former occasions he had agreed in the view taken by the petitioners; namely, that the best and most effectual means to ensure this protection was by opposing the claims of the Roman Catholics; and if on the present occasion, he saw reasons for entertaining a different opinion, it was not because he had lost sight of the dangers upon which he had formerly insisted, but because he was prepared, with his right hon. friend, to encounter the lesser danger. Their situation presented them with a choice between two evils, and after a careful consideration, he had become convinced, that a disunited administration, a divided parliament, and an excited people, were likely to prove much more prejudicial to the interests of the Protestant Church, than the measure which he should have the honour to support that session. He would not now enter into the reasons of this his conviction; but he should take an opportunity, on a future occasion, of stating the grounds upon which he had been induced to change his opinions on this important question.

said, he was quite sure that it did not require the statement which the right hon. gentleman had made, in order to ensure the attention of the House to this petition. He could not help seeing, that a petition from such a grave and reverend body of persons was entitled to the greatest respect and attention; and the more so, because, during the long period this question had been under public consideration, this was only the third time they had petitioned the House. If this petition ema- nated from a deep and intense anxiety that government should do nothing in their measures that would tend to the subversion of the Protestant Church, the petitioners were not only right in what they had done, but their feelings were creditable and honourable to them. With the opinions which he was known to entertain on this question, and with those opinions which he was not so well known to entertain, give him leave to say, that there was no question on which he felt greater anxiety than on the safety of the Protestant Church establishment. Deeply should he regret, if, by any step to which he had in the remotest degree contributed, the Protestant religion should be in the least impaired. He seldom talked of religious feelings; he thought they were better expressed in private: but there were occasions on which men might and must speak out: and he believed, that if there was one man more rootedly attached than another to the Protestant religion, it was the individual who was now addressing them. From this he could not help passing back, and alluding to the petition which had just been presented by his noble friend. He meant the petition from the Protestant Dissenting Ministers. It was with the greatest delight that he had heard that petition read. It was impossible, as his noble friend had well observed, that any men could be more anxious than those petitioners, to guard against any encroachments on the part of the Roman Catholics. If they who professed the Anglican Church were cautious and zealous on this subject, much more so must those petitioners be. It appeared to him, that the petition which was about to be presented had not taken so wise and clear a view, as that which had been presented by his noble friend. But, to do the petitioners justice, they were in the midst of that religion, and this might be a reason for the mistake into which they had fallen. The circumstance, however, of their being in the midst of that religion, under the existing state of the laws, rather incapacitated than qualified them for judging of a political measure on the subject. His anxiety on this question arose from the fact, that the Protestant religion was deeply interested in it; and he thought it an insult to that religion, and to the foundations on which it stood, to say, that by granting political power to the Catholics it could be subverted. He could not say, give political power to the Catholics, for they had had it already. Who would say that the Catholic Association had not political power? Who could forget that it sometimes happened, that injuries conferred greater political power on men than concessions could ever bestow? Let forty or fifty Catholics, though he did not believe the number would ever be so great, find their way within the walls of that House, and let a dozen or a score of Catholics find their way to the other House—what would be the consequence? Danger? No—it would be drawing the very teeth of their grievances. He did not think that the Protestant religion was made to stand fair before the country, when it was said that it could not exist without exclusion. The Protestant religion stood on the Scriptures and on reason, and it could not be disturbed by the machinations of men. He wished to speak respectfully of the Catholic religion, professed, as he was sure it was, most sincerely, by men of great piety; but he must say, that in the mass, he did not think it was a religion calculated to flourish in a free and enlightened country. He believed that the bad parts of the Catholic religion arose out of the civil institutions of the countries in which it was professed. The Catholic religion in Ireland differed from the Catholic religion in France; the Catholic religion in France differed from the Catholic religion in Italy; and the Catholic religion in Italy differed from the Catholic religion in Spain. However, of this he was perfectly convinced; namely, that the Protestant religion stood upon a foundation so firm, that no political power with which the Catholics might be invested could ever prevail against it.

presented two petitions from Leitrim, in favour of the Catholic claims; and two petitions against the Subletting and Vestry Act. In the prayer of the first two petitions he concurred; but he could not accede to the prayer of the latter. He believed that the objections to laws enacted for Ireland frequently arose from the jealousy with which the people viewed the acts of a legislature in which they had no part. He thanked God that the time was at hand when Catholics would become a part of the legislature, and have an opportunity to amend, if amendment was necessary, the laws relating to Ireland. At all events, the promised measure would give the people confidence in those who legislated for them.

in presenting several petitions from Carnarvon, in favour of the Catholic Claims, expressed his concurrence in the prayer of them, and his confidence that ministers, who had now undertaken the settlement of this question, would accompany it with such securities as would tranquillize the minds of the Protestants, and at the same time afford satisfaction to those for whose relief the measure was intended.

said, he had, on a preceding evening, given notice of his intention to present a petition, in reference to the claims of the Roman Catholics, coming from the county which he had the honour to represent. He had announced that intention with the view of accommodating those gentlemen who were interested in it, and in the proceedings of the meeting at which it was carried. The petition in question was a petition from the freeholders of Kent, assembled at Penenden Heath, under the auspices of the high sheriff, for the purpose of taking the great question of the Catholic claims into consideration. He spoke in the presence of many gentlemen who were present at the meeting, when he said, that a meeting more numerous or more respectable had never on any public occasion met; and he thought he might say with equal truth, that the discussions which took place there were conducted with as much order and regularity as it was possible for discussions on a public question to be, which took place before a large assembly of people; and the result of those discussions was most unequivocal and indisputable. He was quite aware, on questions of this kind, which excited so much warm feeling, that it was not pleasing to any party to admit of the other party that they had entirely succeeded. He would, therefore, be satisfied, without entering into a discussion as to what was the precise majority in favour of the present petition, with slating, that the high sheriff, than whom no man could have acted with greater fairness, declared, that the question was carried by an immense majority. The meeting, at which this petition originated, was held on the great question of the Catholic claims, for reasons which appeared to those who were instrumental in calling it to be imperative. The agitated state of Ireland, and the course which events had taken in that country, were the reasons which induced the calling of this meeting, and its object was the consideration of the Catholic claims, Those who had been in strumental in convening the meeting, had viewed, for a long time past, the conduct of the Catholic Association in the same manner as his majesty's government then viewed it. They had witnessed with alarm the collection of rent, and, above all, that money was sent from foreign countries to foment discord and disaffection in this. They felt that, under these circumstances, they would be rendering a service to their country, if, in calling for the expression of the county of Kent, they elicited an opinion favourable to what they then conceived to be the plans and intentions of government. With that view the meeting was called, and the result was such as he had stated it. It was certainly true, that at the present moment he addressed the House with feelings different from those which he had anticipated. It was certainly true, and he would not pretend to conceal it, that he now addressed the House under circumstances and feelings of great and deep disappointment. It was a disappointment occasioned, not by the success of those who had persevered so long in advocating the claims of the Catholics, but by the conduct of those who, for reasons an account of which, satisfactory to himself, he had not heard, had acted in direct opposition to all their former principles. He would, indeed, candidly confess, that it was not so much on account of the question itself, as on account of the manner in which it was about to be carried, that he felt so deeply on the occasion; and he would add, that although he had always with perfect sincerity opposed, and would still continue with perfect sincerity to oppose, the principle of further concession to the Catholics, yet he could with equal truth declare, that if the measure about to be proposed by his majesty's government should be adopted by parliament, he cordially hoped that it might be productive of all the benefits which its proposers and supporters anticipated from it. If any thing which he had said since the meeting of parliament, or which he should now say upon the subject, might be supposed indirectly to cast any imputation or reflection upon the friends of the measure, he hoped, in these preliminary observations, to get rid of all topics of a personal nature; and he trusted that henceforward the undivided attention of the House would be bestowed upon the merits of the great question which was to come under their consideration. It had been asserted, in the course of the debates which had already taken place, that he and those who thought with him on the question, were influenced by certain purposes of their own; that they had ceased to support the right hon. Secretary of State for purposes of their own. This had been stated the other evening by a noble lord, the representative for the university of Cambridge; though he had no doubt that it had merely fallen from the noble lord in the warmth of debate, and that the noble lord had no intention of throwing out any serious imputation on those who differed from him in opinion. Nothing could be more clear than that it was impossible they could be so influenced: nothing could be more clear than that it was impossible they could be influenced by any purpose but one; namely, an anxious desire to discharge their duty conscientiously to their constituents and to the country.—There was another point, which he wished to treat with equal fairness. It had been said, that the change of circumstances justified, at present, a measure which was not before justifiable. Now, he must say, that he had listened with great attention to the right hon. Secretary of State, and to other hon. gentlemen, and he had not been able to discover why the measure which was now proposed by his majesty's government, would not have been equally proper at former periods; for instance, at the time when Mr. Canning was at the head of the administration. The sincerity and zeal of Mr. Canning, in advocating the Catholic cause, did him honour; although he had always opposed him on the question, as he should oppose the right hon. gentleman, until he obtained something like satisfactory information, if such could be afforded, as to the reasons which had induced the right hon. Secretary of State to change his determination upon the subject. He by no means meant to say any thing inconsistent with perfect respect for the right hon. gentleman. He by no means meant to impute to the right hon. gentleman, that he had been actuated by love of office, or by any unworthy motive. On the contrary, he was persuaded that he acted solely from a sense of what he conceived to be his public duty. But he repeated, that he had not yet heard any satisfactory explanation of the reasons of the right hon. gentleman's conduct. One argument had been urged by several right hon. gentlemen, which, he confessed, surprised him exceedingly. It had been said, that if those who were hostile to the mea sure about to be proposed, felt that they could not oppose it with success, they ought not to oppose it at all. This was singular doctrine in a British House of Commons. If it were once established, to what evils and absurdities would it not lead! He would illustrate his argument by a reference to the bill, the second reading of which the right hon. gentleman was that night to move. The principle of that bill was allowed on all hands to be such, that it could be justified only by the emergency. But, let it be supposed that any hon. members happened to be of opinion, that no such emergency existed, would they be justified in declining actively to oppose the measure, because it was probable that, notwithstanding their opposition, it would be acceded to? He was sure the answer would be in the negative. He was sure he should be told, that in such a supposed case perseverance in opposition would be a sacred duty. Well; that was exactly the situation in which he and the other hon. members who opposed further concessions to the Roman Catholics stood. Apprehensive that the constitution of the country was about to be invaded, they were determined, and justifiably determined, to endeavour to defend it to the last moment. In making this declaration, however, he trusted that it would not be supposed that they were prepared to conduct themselves in the spirit of faction. Although they felt that it would not become them silently to acquiesce in a measure which they reprobated, they also felt, that it would not become them to give to their opposition to that measure a character of violence and intemperance. Nor was their opposition to the Catholic claims founded on any grounds of religious intolerance. Let the House hear the petition which he was about to present, and they would find that every topic calculated to lead to irritation had been studiously avoided; and that the prayer of the petition was simply, that the Protestant constitution of the empire might be maintained and preserved. He had no desire to conceal from the House, that the debate at the meeting in Kent, turned on the question of granting political power to the Catholics, by which was understood granting them seats in parliament: he, and the other supporters of the petition, entertained no unfriendly feeling whatever towards their Catholic fellow-subjects. On the contrary, they were desirous that they should possess all the rights and privileges which were compatible with the security of the Protestant constitution. But they were apprehensive, that if the Catholics were put in possession of political power, they would use that power to the injury of the Protestant constitution. It was on that principle that the question had been argued on Penenden Heath; it was on that principle that it was his intention to discuss the measure about to be introduced by his majesty's government.—It had been stated, with reference to the petition, that, having been agreed to before the delivery of his Majesty's Speech, it could scarcely be considered as expressive of the sentiments which the petitioners might entertain, under the change of circumstances which that Speech had occasioned. In that as sertion there was much ingenuity; but he was quite satisfied, both from his own personal knowledge, and from communication with other individuals, that no alteration had taken place in the opinions of the petitioners since his Majesty's Speech had been delivered to parliament. He understood that a petition of a different nature, which was called a counter petition, was to be presented to that House. In the county of Kent, as well as in that House, a difference of opinion existed; but he maintained, that a large majority of the county were adverse to the adoption of the Roman Catholic claims. The meeting at Penenden-heath had been, he would admit, attended by a great many persons, eminent for their talents, rank, and general respectability, who were known to be warm and zealous advocates of Roman Catholic concession; but if those gentlemen were unable to induce the majority of that meeting to embrace their view of the subject—if they were unable to turn the popular tide in their favour, the fact could lead to no inference whatever, but that the sense of the majority of the freeholders of the county were opposed to the concession of what was called Catholic Emancipation. He would no longer detain the House, except by repeating his assurance, that if it should be his lot to take a part in the discussions which the measure about to be proposed by government would elicit, the sole motive by which he should be actuated would be an anxiety to maintain inviolate the Protestant constitution, convinced as he was, that on the maintenance of that constitution, the safety and happiness of the empire depended.

said, he had not intended to have troubled the House by making any observations in the present state of the discussion; but the hon. member for Kent had made some allusions of a personal nature, which were so temperate as to be entitled to an answer. There was nothing more delicate than to assume the voluntary defence of the conduct of a friend, and his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Peel) need be under no apprehension that he was going to undertake so superfluous a task as to attempt that defence of the right hon. gentleman which he had so admirably and successfully achieved himself. The hon. baronet had said, that no circumstances had lately occurred which could justify the course which his right hon. friend had thought it his duty to pursue upon the present occasion. He should not enter into any detail of the circumstances which had led to the measures which were now under the consideration of the House; but, without going into that part of the subject, he should observe, that the Catholic question was one which, beyond all others, was the most calculated to attract to itself all the unpledged talent of that House. It had been in particular distinguished by the advocacy of two most illustrious members, of whom one had been removed from amongst them by an event which they must all deplore, and the other by being transferred to a judicial situation—he meant the late Mr. Canning and lord Plunkett. When the subject of the Catholic claims was before the House two years ago, if any one had announced to them that before the next discussion of the question they should lose the services of those illustrious men, what would then have been the expectations of the friends of this measure? They would, doubtless, have thought, that it must be rejected by a large majority, when deprived of the support of those splendid talents, which had previously supported it against the weight and influence of a large portion of the government; but, when they saw that on the very first discussion which followed the removal of those two great men the principle of concession to the claims of the Roman Catholics had been adopted by a majority of that House, they must arrive at the conclusion, that a measure which had so succeeded, must have taken a strong hold upon the reason and sense of justice of the country. In meeting the monstrous proposition, that the right hon. gentleman was not at liberty to guide his conduct by the alterations which had taken place in the circumstances of the country, he should only say, that such a doctrine would go to deprive the right hon. gentleman altogether of his reason, and to leave him no better guide for his actions than mere instinct; for what was the distinction which a great philosopher had pointed out between instinct and reason? That the conclusions of reason were always indefinitely increasing, whereas instinct was incapable of generating any additional perceptions, and was always stationary and unimprovable. Was his right hon. friend to be prevented from using his reason; to be reduced to the condition of a being in the lower orders of creation; to be ranked with the beaver, the habits and feelings of which continued precisely the same for thousands of years? There was nothing in the course which his right hon. friend had adopted, that could justify the hon. baronet's remarks. He had said thus much, because although, if he had not entirely approved of his right hon. friend's propositions, his respect for him might nevertheless have induced him to have given his right hon. friend his support; yet, under such circumstances, he should not have given that support with the feelings of satisfaction, cordiality, and gratitude which he now entertained; convinced as he was, that his right hon. friend and the noble duke at the head of the government would prove themselves to be the regenerators of Ireland, and the saviours of the empire.

said, that as, in the absence of his hon. friend, the other member for Kent, he was about to present a petition of a nature very different from that which had been presented by the hon. baronet, he should think it more convenient to address now to the House those observations which he intended to make upon the subject, than to defer them until the presentation of that petition. In reference to the petition which was in the hands of the hon. baronet, he should most freely admit, that the signatures attached to it were those of persons of the highest respectability. For the clergy he entertained all the respect and reverence which was due to their characters; with the gentry who had affixed their signatures to the petition he was intimately acquainted, and entertained for most of them a sincere regard. The free-holders he considered as entitled to great weight and respect in the public consideration; but, whilst he admitted all this, and, further, confessed that the number of signatures attached to his petition was much inferior to that of the hon. baronet, still he could not admit that the petition which he presented did not speak the sense of the county upon this most important subject. He had not, for some time, seen the petition which had been agreed to at the meeting at Penenden-heath; but from the recollection which he entertained upon the subject, he believed that it was as mild, as gentle, and as inoffensive, as any document could be, and was such a document as he or any of the friends with whom he was in the habit of acting would feel no difficulty whatever in affixing their signatures to, if it were not for the animus by which the whole proceeding was known to have been instigated, and if they did not know that the whole had been set on foot and conducted on the principle of intolerance. Another circumstance which would account for the great superiority of numbers in the signatures to the petition of the hon. baronet was, that great exertions had been made to induce the freeholders to sign it. It was not to be wondered at that the humble freeholder, with his clergyman on one hand and the squire of the parish on the other, should affix his signature to a petition so general and so inoffensive, and which, as had been confessed by the hon. baronet himself, contained not one word on the subject of Catholic emancipation. Here the noble lord read an extract from the petition which he was about to present, and said, that that petition was of a decided character, and such as required that the persons who signed it should have brought their minds to a specific conclusion upon the point. Was it, then, to be wondered at, that this petition should have fewer signatures than the other, which was of so general and undecided a character? He admitted that the signatures to his petition were much inferior in number to those of the petition of the hon. baronet, but he considered that even the number which had been attached to the petition which he had to present, was greater than he could have expected, and, if two years ago, any person had told him that such a petition would, in the present time, receive such a number of signatures in such a place, he would suppose that the person communicating such an opinion was mad. The hon. baronet had said, that even if the King's Speech had been published before the meeting had taken place, the result would have been the same. He did not mean to deny that such an assertion was true of some part of the hon. baronet's constituents; but he happened to be well acquainted with another part of the county of Kent, where he was convinced that the case would be different. He should instance the neighbourhood of Chatham. In the dock-yard, about two hundred of the artisans and labourers were freeholders of the county, and they had all signed the petition agreed to at Penenden-heath. But, with all respect for the freeholders, he must be allowed to say, that he doubted much if they would now sign the petition, if the matter were to be done over again. The petition had been signed by them within the walls of the dock-yard, under the inspection of their officers, and, perhaps, under an impression that the first lord of the admiralty was decidedly hostile to the Roman Catholic claims, and an advocate of intolerance. While he admitted that there was a majority in favour of the hon. baronet's petition, he must say, that the majority was not, as the hon. baronet had called it, "immense." He was afraid it would be vain for him to state his opinion upon the relative numbers, as they differed so widely from those of the hon. baronet. Indeed, he thought it a fortunate circumstance that the yeomanry force of the country had been dispensed with, as the hon. baronet and himself had both commanded troops, and it appeared, from the very different conclusions to which they had come in estimating the numbers at that meeting, that one or other of them had a very unsoldier-like eye. But, whatever might be the numbers present, the dinner at Maidstone, from which the counter petition emanated, was better conducted, more orderly, and more like a deliberative assembly. At Penenden-heath the counter-petitioners had difficulties to encounter, which the Brunswickers were free from. There were intruders of all descriptions. Their line was constantly broken by persons from this part of the country and that; and though the hon. baronet had represented the meeting as an orderly one, he had never seen greater tumult and confusion in all his life. From the influence of the refreshments, which were liberally distributed in the waggons, and the intrusion of persons at all times noisy and unseasonable, it was impossible to preserve order. Of all the circumstances which occurred during the meeting, there was one which he particularly lamented; namely, that a noble friend of his (lord Radnor) should have been induced, at the close of the day, to pass an eulogium on an individual (Mr. Cobbett) who, he confessed, was the last person in the whole multitude who deserved it. Could any one doubt but that the individual in question had gone to the meeting from mischievous motives, and with the intention of dragging the freeholders into some of his views, as he had done the freeholders of other counties before? But, from what had occurred upon that occasion and since, it was to be hoped that that individual would never show his face at a county meeting in Kent again. It had been much the fashion to abuse the Brunswick clubs; but, little as the House might expect it, he was inclined to speak of those societies in a very different tone. He believed that the Catholic question was more indebted to the Brunswick clubs than to any other cause whatever for the high degree of advancement, or rather for the ultimate success, to which it had arrived. Those clubs had opened the eyes of the people, and since the meeting at Penenden-heath, the question had been deliberately canvassed throughout the country; and, as it was founded on reason, justice, and truth, the more closely it was considered, the more likely it was to succeed. He congratulated the right hon. Secretary, that when the good of his country was at stake, he had disregarded all private considerations and personal sacrifices, and fearlessly performed his duty, without regard to the inconveniences which it might produce to himself.

in a tone and manner indicative of strong feeling, observed, that of course he was bound to presume, that the hon. baronet, the member for Kent, was influenced, in the reproaches which he had thought proper to cast upon him, by public motives alone. He would, however, tell that hon. baronet, that he would not condescend to make any apology to him, for the conduct which he had thought it his duty to pursue. He would not condescend to explain to the hon. baronet the reasons which had induced him, as a responsible adviser of the Crown, to give to the Crown the advice which he had given. He knew of no relation in which he stood to any man. He knew of no relation in which he stood to any body of men—which called upon him to state why, when he was sent for by his sovereign to give, at a critical moment, that advice which he was bound on oath to give to the best of his ability and judgment—he should have refrained from doing his duty. He had contracted no relation with any man—he had contracted no relation with any party—which could either relieve him from the obligation of giving his majesty the best advice in his power, or which could justly subject him to the charge of having been guilty of inconsistency, or of a dereliction of principle in so doing. He repeated, therefore, that he would not condescend to look out for excuses for the line of conduct, which, under these circumstances, he had determined to pursue. As a member of that House, he felt himself as independent as the hon. baronet, and in every respect as consistent. But very different would have been his feelings, if he had not advised his king, as he had done, to the best of his abilities. He had taken his oath as a member of the privy council, and that oath not only compelled him to give the advice which he had given to his sovereign, but it would have rendered the withholding of that advice a dereliction of principle, and a strong violation of his duty. He had, and he trusted that he ever should have, firmness and strength of mind to forget in the councils of his king, what had been his past declarations and his past conduct, under circumstances which rendered neither applicable to the actual state of the country. He must also say, that he had firmness enough to pass by any insinuations which might be levelled against him for so doing. One observation of the hon. baronet had been, that he (Mr. Peel) might have taken his present course at a different period—when Mr. Canning was at the head of the government, He would tell the hon. baronet, that he had, for the full period of twenty years, resolutely and zealously opposed every compromise with the Catholics. He could tell him, that it was with the utmost reluctance that he had at length consented to break in upon the constitutional settlement of 1688; but he would also tell the hon. baronet, that he was too true and consistent a friend to the Protestant interests; he was too sincerely attached to the Protestant Establishment, to push his resistance to concessions, to that point which should endanger the very existence of the institutions which he was anxious to defend; and he thought that, so far from being inconsistent in his conduct in regard to this matter, he was the most consistent friend of the Protestant institutions of the country, seeing that for the purpose of maintaining them in security, he had submitted to undergo every species of personal imputation and reproach. Those were the grounds on which he had acted, and they were grounds on which he had a right to act. No man was worthy of being a minister of the Crown, who, when his advice was required upon a measure of great national importance, should say, "I am fettered by declarations I have made; I am not enabled to look at the present aspect of affairs; I must consult my friends and party, in order to see my way." He confessed that these considerations held out a powerful temptation; but no man was fit to have a place in the councils of his sovereign, who could not resist them. The hon. baronet seemed to be of opinion, that some sort of deception had been practised by the government, and that he and his friends had been taken by surprise. Now, how could government have proclaimed its intentions? Would the hon. baronet have bad it resort to the newspapers? Was it possible that government could tell the world what course it meant to pursue, parliament not being sitting? How many lessons had been read, with reference to this very question, upon premature discussion. What had happened at the time of the Union? He had always contended, that no pledge had been given at that period which could bind any one; but expectations, certainly, had been entertained which were disappointed. And why? Because Mr. Pitt pledged himself, before lie was perfectly certain that he should be able to fulfil that pledge. In 1806 and 1807, it was notorious that the same inconvenience resulted from premature declarations. He would say, that not only with respect to this question, but all others, the government which kept its own counsels was most likely to conduct the affairs of the country to advantage. He admitted to the hon. baronet, that it would have been infinitely better if he could have adopted the course which he was now pursuing in a private instead of a public station. He could only say, that every thing which it was possible for man to do, he had done, to enable him to take that station; but when the question was this—"What advice will you give? Will you advise the maintenance of the present state of things?"—"Certainly not." "Will you advise the formation of an exclusively Protestant Government, offering eternal and uncompromising resistance?" His answer was, "I cannot; because I know that such a government will fail, and in its failure will render every thing worse than at present." Then came the obvious reply, "If, then, you can take neither of these alternatives, but one course is left to be pursued—to attempt to make a safe settlement of the question, by a united government." "To do that imposes painful sacrifices." "Will you shrink from making those sacrifices, which you advise others to submit to?" He answered, without the hesitation of a moment, "Come what may, I will be the man to set the example of those sacrifices." [loud cheers].

disclaimed any thing personal towards the hon. baronet. Although he had differed with him in opinion, such differences had never prevented his doing justice to the hon. baronet's conduct in that House.

regretted very much that any thing which he bad said should have induced the right hon. Secretary to address the House with so much warmth, and be appealed to the House whether any thing that had fallen from him could justify the manner in which the right hon. gentleman had thought fit to answer him. He fully admitted the right of the right hon. gentleman to advise the Crown according to the best of his judgment, but to himself it belonged to arraign the conduct of any minister who should, in his opinion, have transgressed the line of his duty. He should, however, he hoped, always exercise this right in a manner respectful to the House, and to the individual who was charged before them. With regard to the statement of the noble lord that great exertions had been made to procure signatures to this petition he could say for himself, that he had used none; and if the noble lord could say as much, then the two petitions would appear to be the spontaneous effusion of the public mind in that county. But as the noble lord's petition had only one thousand seven hundred signatures, whilst his had five thousand, he was entitled to claim for the petition which he presented, the distinction of representing the sentiments of the great majority of the freeholders of Kent.

observed, that the remarks which had fallen from the hon. member for Kent did not warrant the warmth of temper exhibited by the right honourable Secretary. He must also take leave to observe, that to say that any member of that House had not a right to arraign a minister, with respect to any measure which he had thought it his duty to recommend to parliament, was a doctrine to which the people of England had not hitherto given their consent. It was a doctrine to which be as one of the representatives of a large county, would not consent to subscribe; and he hoped that, during the discussions which would take place on this question, he should exhibit every degree of temper, whilst, at the same time, he would not compromise his dignity as a member of parliament by surrendering his right to arraign the conduct of any government, or of any minister. He did not think that the hon. baronet meant to impute unworthy motives to the right hon. gentleman. Indeed, he had distinctly stated, that such was not his intention. For his own part, the right hon. gentleman was the last person on whom he would cast an imputation of that nature. However much he regretted, that the right hon. gentleman had been induced to recommend to parliament a measure, which would be most prejudicial to the country, and injurious to the Protestant interest, he nevertheless gave him credit for the utmost purity of motive.

said, he cordially concurred in every word that had fallen from the hon. gentleman. He admitted the right of any member to attack the conduct of a minister of the Crown; but he also claimed for himself the right to defend his own character, when it was assailed. The right was reciprocal. Once for all, he had now explained the course which he had taken upon this subject. He would now make no more reference to his own personal share in the question. He would not be betrayed into the manifestation of warmth, which he admitted was quite inconsistent with the deliberate consideration of the measures which were shortly to be submitted to the House. If he had already been betrayed into any warmth of temper, he had unfortunately been betrayed into a departure from the course which he had prescribed to himself, on proposing measures of such paramount importance. He would in future observe the recommendation of his majesty, to enter upon the consideration of those measures with the temper and the moderation which would best ensure a successful issue to the deliberations of parliament.

moved the second reading of this bill.

said, he understood, from the excellent address of the right hon. Secretary on a former evening, that none of the provisions of the bill were intended to be permanent: he found, however, on reading the first paragraph, that that part of the bill which enacted the Suppression of the Catholic Association was intended to be permanent. He wished for some information, with respect to this apparent contradiction. If his reading of the bill were correct, he should feel it necessary to oppose the measure; which however he should be reluctant to do, because he felt, in common with his hon. friends around him, a most earnest wish not to throw the least obstacle in the way of the great measure which ministers had in contemplation. When he was informed, that the late Lord-lieutenant of Ireland had declared, in his place in parliament, that though the Association had been "under his nose for six months,"—that was his expression—he saw no danger in it, he must declare, that having always protested against any thing like an infringement of the constitution, which this bill was, on all hands, allowed to be, he would have strenuously opposed the present measure, were it not to be followed by another of such vital importance. He differed from the general opinion, with respect to the character of the Catholic Association, and he also differed from the opinion expressed by some members, with respect to other popular Associations, by which it had been opposed. The hon. member for Dublin had told the House, that the members of the Brunswick clubs had been entirely actuated by the spirit of Christian charity. Now, he had often read descriptions of charity, and had seen that virtue personified in different ways; but the present was the first occasion in which he had ever heard that she made her appearance amongst mankind, with a bludgeon in one hand and a pitchfork in the other. The admissions made, on both sides of the question, were sufficient excuses for the Home Secretary, in his change of opinions. He felt such a conviction, that something must be done for Ireland, that he was inclined to overlook the many objections that might, be made to the present bill; for he believed that some such measure was necessary for the success of what was hereafter to be proposed. If the House waved all objections to the bill, let it be clearly understood that the ultimate proceeding was to be carried as a government measure, and that the noble duke at the head of the administration, as well as the right hon. gentleman opposite, staked their places and reputation, for the carrying of it. The House had a right to expect, that the noble duke would complete the work in the way in which he had begun it, and would not be turned aside by public opinion or private insinuation of any kind. It had been said, that popular feeling was decidedly adverse to Catholic emancipation. It was surprising such an assertion should be made, when the district in the immediate vicinity of that House, sent six members to parliament who were favourable to concession. After such a fact he could not understand why it should be said, the people of England were adverse to the Catholic claims. He was sure the ministers would be supported in the measure by the voice of the country. As to intimidating the king's ministers, such a thing was not unconstitutional; they ought to be afraid to do wrong. If they could not feel an apprehension of committing arbitrary measures, what was the use of the word responsibility? If the ministers had been intimidated it was by the experience, that they could not carry on the government safely, with the exclusion of a large portion of the people from the privileges of the constitution. The measure had been advocated by many of the illustrious dead, who had adorned that House; and when hon. members praised a late right hon. gentleman, Mr. Canning, let them not forget those men who, in other times and under greater difficulties, advocated the great question when there was no prospect of their labours being brought to a successful issue. Let them not forget the Grattans, the Foxes, and the Windhams. If ministers had not listened to the warnings given by those great men, they would be unworthy of their situations, and of the high reputation which they had now acquired. He was sure the ministers would find themselves supported, not only in that House, but in the other. He hoped it was understood that the measure of con- cession was a government measure. He trusted the ministers would assume the same manly attitude, and hold the same manly language that had been used that night by the right hon. Secretary so much to his honour.

stated, that the powers given in the bill to the Lord-lieutenant, would terminate with the bill; namely, after the space of a year, and the end of the then next session of parliament.

said, he should give his assent to the bill, on account of the necessity of the case. Nobody could approve of the Catholic Association. It had been levying taxes upon the Irish community: and for what purpose? He had no hesitation in saying, for the purpose of intimidating the legislature, into a repeal of the existing laws of the realm. He had the highest confidence in the noble duke at the head of the government, as well as in the right hon. Secretary; and should, therefore, wait until the details of the measure were brought forward. But this he must say, that he would watch with jealousy every measure proposed as a security for the Protestant establishment.

said, he rose to state briefly his assent to the motion, from a conviction that the condition of Ireland was such, that it was impossible a worse could exist. The remedy proposed—he meant that before the House—he thought was a good one. It was summary, but temporary; and, looking at the objects it had in view, he considered it founded in justice and wisdom, when coupled with the other measures which were intended. Yet though he approved of this bill, he should not be inconsistent when he said, that if it had been brought forward without an understanding that the measure of conciliation was to follow, he would not have given it his support; for though there were many objections to the existence of such a body as the Catholic Association, he would never have voted for its suppression, unless in conjunction with, or under the assurance of, a measure of concession; believing as he did that concession was essential to the peace and security of the country. In this view of the case, he gave great credit to ministers for the course which they proposed to pursue; for he was quite satisfied that any measure having for its object the peace and tranquillity of Ireland, must be wholly inoperative, unless it was to be accompanied, or immediately followed, by the great measure of concession to the Roman Catholics. He had little further to offer, on the part of the subject then before the House. There was, indeed, nothing in it to grapple with: there was no opposition; for every member who had spoken seemed to be of one opinion with respect to it. As to the measure to be brought forward, he did trust and hope that it would be brought forward in a manner which would give content and satisfaction; for unless it was one of that description, the very mooting of it would be productive of dangerous consequences. He trusted, therefore, that in that, and in the other House of parliament the measure would be carried through in a manner to give satisfaction to every reasonable Protestant and every reasonable Catholic. For himself, he would be perfectly satisfied, with a simple repeal of the penal statutes; but being convinced that there were prejudices in the minds of many, he thought they ought to be conciliated by every reasonable concession, so as not to trench on the general principle of the measure itself. With this feeling, he hoped the whole measure would be such as to give satisfaction to all parties—he meant all reasonable men; for he knew there were some to whom no modification of the principle of concession would be satisfactory.—As much had been said of the personal feelings of individuals on this occasion, he felt it due to his right hon. friend to state, that he rejoiced at the course which he had adopted. He conceived that that course was not a dereliction of any principles he had held, when he made the manly admission, that he was influenced by his preference of actual safety to contingent danger. His right hon. friend had not renounced the opinion that there was some danger; and in preferring the contingency of that danger to the risk of present security, and retaining office with that avowal, he conceived that he acted a most manly, honourable, and unselfish part—a part which must tend to raise his character and influence in the House and the country infinitely more than if he had slunk into one of the back benches, and suffered others to carry into execution that measure, which, although it corresponded with his views of the true interests of the country, he had not the integrity to avow. He had, with as much candour as courage, declared and acted upon an opinion consistent, as he thought, with the true interests of his sovereign and of the people, and for that opinion he was not responsible to any man. He regretted to hear some hon. gentlemen announce their determination to oppose the measure contemplated by the government at every stage. His own determination was quite of an opposite character. He would do all in his power to give effect to the measures which the government were about to introduce; for he felt that those measures would entitle them to his gratitude, as well as to that of every well-thinking man in the community. All who duly weighed the vast interest connected with this important question, must, he thought, come to the same conclusion; unless, indeed, they were prepared to adopt the terrible alternative, and declare at once that the question should never be settled.

assured the House, that he did not rise for the purpose of prolonging the discussion; but when he recollected the former opposition given to a measure similar to the present, the length of the debates, and the obstinacy of the resistance made to it, he could not content himself with giving a silent vote upon it. The reason why he voted for this bill now, having opposed it before, had no reference to the conduct of the Association, or to the individuals who composed it: on the contrary, he differed with many honourable members who had spoken against them. He said this, because he felt that every act of that body, every effort which they made, short of an actual infringement of the law, was perfectly justifiable, in stating their grievances, and seeking redress. It was the duty of that body to arouse the feelings of the people, from one end of the country to the other, and incite them to a determination to call for relief. This he deemed it the right of that body to do, and parliament, unless it meant to remove the grievance had no right to interfere. This brought him to what had been stated by the hon. member for Westminster, with reference to the proposed bill. That hon. member stated, that he would vote for it solely upon the ground that it was to be followed up by that more important one which was to be introduced and carried as a government measure: the hon. member had, at the same time, expressed some vague apprehension with respect to that measure. For himself, he entertained no such apprehensions; but if there were grounds for entertaining them, he should then say, that the bill before the House was mere waste-paper, and would be altogether inoperative. Unless the grievances of Ireland were redressed, it would be impossible to stifle the voice of complaint; no matter whether it came through the Catholic Association or through other channels. He must confess that he entertained a wish that the preamble of the bill had run differently; and he thought, too, that it would be well if hon. members would deliver their sentiments, without pointing out what the former conduct of the Association had been, as the hon. member for Beverley had done. His firm belief was, that the Catholic Association was now and for ever dissolved; he had reason to know that that step had been taken, advisedly taken; and further, that the Catholic hierarchy had advised the people to place confidence in the king's government and in the legislature, and give up altogether that Catholic Association, of which so much had been said.—The vote which they were called upon to give upon that occasion, was, he confessed, a vote of confidence, as they could not tell what the nature of the other bill would be; they had, however, a right to expect that it would be a measure that would satisfy the House and the country. He thanked the hon. member for Westminster for the manner in which he had alluded to the late Mr. Grattan; and he was sure that if that great and good man, who might be justly looked upon as the liberator of his country, had lived to witness the final completion of his own great work, it would give him, as well as those who admired his talents, infinite satisfaction and delight. He must own that he had, in the first instance, felt some difficulty on the subject of the penalties in this bill; but he was quite satisfied with the explanations given by the right hon. gentleman; for it would be absurd to suppose that it could be intended to put down permanently by a temporary measure. However, they were legislating for what so longer existed; and he trusted, that, in the further progress of this measure, every allusion which could tend to create irritation would be avoided. He was, in the abstract, not friendly to assemblies or clubs similar to that; and he was glad that all cause for their existence was about to be removed. On this subject he would beg leave to read to the House an authority, which would be considered as of much weight on matters where freedom of discussion was concerned. The extract which he begged leave to read was from the farewell address of president Washington in 1796. Speaking of party associations, that great man said, "All combinations and associations under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of the fundamental principles of government, and are of fatal tendency. They serve to organize faction, to give to it an artificial and extraordinary force—to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation, the will of a party—often a small but active and enterprising minority of the community—and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common councils and modified by mutual interests." Such were the opinions delivered by Washington, a republican, as to the effect of associations generally. He hoped that, under the provisions of this bill, all associations would be suppressed on both sides, and that both parties would be taught that the control of government, acting under proper responsibility, would afford them the best protection and security. He trusted that the lord lieutenant would exercise the power intrusted to him impartially towards all parties. In expressing this wish, he assured the House that he spoke not in distrust, but in confidence. He thought that that part of the bill might be read in this way; namely, that if in any part of Ireland, associations, no matter of what description, should be found to exist, calculated to endanger the public peace, then the power of the lord lieutenant should be called in and acted upon, for their suppression. It was not for him to point out any particular associations; but he hoped and trusted, that all associations would cease to exist in Ireland. He trusted that the communication which he had been authorized to make relative to the close of the Catholic Association would give satisfaction, as well to the friends of Catholic emancipation as to many honourable members who might, on other grounds, entertain apprehensions of its continued existence.

said, he was most anxious to state his opinion upon this question, because on a former occasion, when a bill was introduced to put down the Catholic Association, he had exerted himself to prevent its passing, and had ventured to state, that unless the cause which had enrolled so many millions of Irishmen in their own defence were removed, no legislative provision could be of any avail. He rejoiced that the Association had not been put down, as he believed it was the cause of the success of the great and important object which they were on the eve of achieving. He begged leave to protest against the doctrine of his hon. friend, who had expressed his condemnation of associations; and he protested against it on this ground, that he considered it the great and peculiar advantage of England above all other countries, that whenever any oppression took place, or was attempted, bodies of men, no matter whether they amounted to twenty or twenty thousand, had an opportunity of making their appeal and forcing upon the attention of the government of the country, those rights which were about to be attacked. He could not agree in thinking that this Association was either dangerous or unconstitutional; and he thought that those members of a government would be unfit for the posts which they filled, who should avow that it was the source of any danger. There was proof that no sooner was an intimation given that measures were about to be carried into effect for the relief of the country, than the Association ceased to exist. He thought that that very Catholic Association had done more to preserve the peace of Ireland than all the military force with which it was encumbered; far more than the forty thousand soldiers who were stationed in it. He would give the ministers every assistance in his power towards carrying the measure of relief which they proposed; although he thought they ought to have done it with a better grace, and not to have introduced the present bill, as a preliminary necessary on so important an occasion. He was quite satisfied that had the penal laws been removed there would have been no occasion for this measure and yet the government had made the measure so offensive to the Catholic Association, that, if they could take offence at any thing on the eve of so important an acquisition as they were about to receive; this was the very means to excite their discontent. He might safely say that the Catholic Association was not half so dangerous—or so violent in its denunciations—as the Brunswick clubs, which, notwithstanding, were never mentioned. He had not heard that any members of the Catholic Association had gone so far as to say, that they were prepared to extirpate their opponents, as had been said in some of the Brunswick clubs. He thought, therefore, that ministers ought to have acted so far with impartiality, as not to have mentioned the one, while they omitted the other. He protested against the principle upon which this bill was to be carried. It was, in effect, a suspension of the principles of the constitution. Notwithstanding this, he was so anxious for the success of the measure which was about to be brought forward, that, although he did not approve of this bill, yet, as a minor evil, he would not oppose it.—He could not help regretting that the right hon. Secretary of State, who had distinguished himself so much by his conduct on this occasion, had not endeavoured to make the boon a little more palatable. At the same time he felt that no praises which he could offer—no thanks which he could return—to the duke of Wellington, or to the right hon. Secretary, could recompense them for the benefits they conferred upon the country, by the course which they were about to adopt. He said this the more earnestly, because it bad not often fallen to his lot to approve of the conduct of any ministry. No measure which had been brought forward since he had had the honour of a seat in parliament appeared likely to be productive of so much benefit to the country as the present, and the individuals who brought it forward were pre-eminently entitled to his thanks individually, as he was sure they would receive those of the country in general.—Before he sat down, he would beg leave to say one word in answer to something which had fallen from the right hon. member for Louth, on a former evening. That right hon. member had said, in one sweeping clause, that the whole of Scotland was adverse to granting to the Catholics of Ireland their civil rights. He should be glad to know on what ground the right hon. gentleman advanced this assertion—on what authority he maligned the whole of his countrymen in one sweeping clause. He was satisfied that there was no ground for the assertion, and that, like many other of the right hon. gentleman's statements, it was altogether, as far as he knew, unfounded. He wished the right hon. gentleman to understand that, whether he formed his judgment from the representatives of the people of Scotland in that House, or from the petitions which had been presented from that country against the claims of the Catholics, he was altogether mistaken. With the exception of some insignificant, self-elected boroughs, there was no one occasion that he knew of for the last eight or ten years, when the people of Scotland degraded themselves in the manner stated by the right hon. gentleman. He believed they possessed more gratitude, and valued their rights more highly, than the right hon. gentleman was aware. They enjoyed their own religion, differing from that of the Church of England; and they were too liberal, as a body, to deny to another country; rights similar to those which they themselves possessed. On this ground, he thought that it was an attempt to terrify the ministers, by holding out to them the dread of popular feeling in this country and in Scotland. He had no doubt it would turn out, notwithstanding the call made from the other House, and the cry raised elsewhere of "Englishmen, stand to your guns, and be ready for action," that every hour would convince his majesty's government that they had taken the proper step. Every hour would satisfy them, that they had acted the part of an honourable and independent government, when being convinced that circumstances called for a change of sentiment, they manfully avowed that change, and openly called upon the legislature to support them; and it was highly to the credit of that House to have been ready at the call. He longed to see the small minority which would be against the united wishes of the country. The clergy, it was true, might oppose it, from an apprehension of its affecting their interests; but even amongst that body many changes to the liberal side of the question had recently taken place; and he had no doubt that a number of those who were now hostile to the claims of the Catholics, would soon join the ranks of their advocates, and show themselves anxious for an extension of civil rights. Had there not been, within the last eight and forty hours, a most unanswerable proof from Cambridge of the progress of liberal opinions.—It was a proof that it was only necessary for ministers to set the example, to make it be universally followed. He was aware that there existed a difference between the two Universities upon this point, and that Oxford had always been less liberal than Cambridge; but if ministers had come down to the House and said they meant to allow of no change in favour of the Catholics, he believed that even Cambridge would hardly have been found so liberal as to decline petitioning against them. Looking at this bill merely as a preliminary measure, he would not oppose it, but he hoped he should never again be called upon to sanction a similar measure.

denied that he had stated the people of Scotland to be opposed to the claims of the Roman Catholics; on the contrary, he had represented them as not unfavourable to those claims. But he did take a distinction, which he supposed the hon. member for Aberdeen was not able to understand;—namely, that the Scotch people, though not unfavourable to the claims of the Roman Catholics, would oppose the establishment of the Roman Catholic religion as the religion of the State. He now repeated this assertion. He maintained that the objection to the Roman Catholic religion was not a prejudice peculiar to the Protestant Church, but was at least as strongly entertained by all other Protestant Dissenters, save one body, and of that sect he was ready to make the hon. member a present.

said, that if the hon. member for Aberdeen had exercised his usual disposition to research, he would not have been surprised at the decision of the University of Cambridge; for he would have found, that this was not the first time it had refused to petition against further concessions to the Catholics; for that when a bill for the relief of that body was last before the House, it had come to a similar decision; and when a cry had been raised on the subject of concession, and it was urged in that House as a proof of the general feeling, that the Universities had petitioned against such concession, an hon. member had got up in his place, and indignantly repelled the statement, on the parr of the University of Cambridge.

said, that though he could not support this bill, he felt it to be his duty, under existing circumstances, to withdraw his opposition to it. He could not vote for it on any other ground than that it was to be followed up by a measure of emancipation for the Catholics. If it were not for that consideration, he would not have allowed it to go through a single stage without meeting it with the most strenuous opposition. He objected to the bill, because it was to put down the Catholic Association. He objected to it, because it made the suppression of that Association perpetual. He objected to it, because it armed the Lord-lieutenant with unconstitutional power, and because it armed the magistracy also with power which he dreaded more than that which it vested in the hands of so responsible a magistrate as the Lord-lieutenant. He had hoped that the bill would have been free from this latter objection; because, as he had stated upon a former occasion, he thought it much better to vest power of such a description in the hands of a high officer, who exercised it upon his responsibility to parliament, than to vest it in the hands of those who exercised it almost without any responsibility at all. He quite agreed with the doctrine, that in Ireland it was a matter much to be deplored, whenever it became necessary to vest in the acting magistrates, powers which were to be merely powers of discretion; and for this reason, that that country was torn in pieces by domestic factions. He, however, looked forward with confidence to the healing operation of the great measure which was to follow this bill, and which he considered as the price, and the costly price too, which was to be paid for it. But, for a time, yes, for a year, or a year and a half, during which it was to be in operation, he was afraid that the House must make up its mind to behold the consequences of the past misgovernment of Ireland still visible, in the continuance of the factious divisions which had so long distracted the people and the magistracy. He thought that a country, where one half of the community had been so long taught that the law was not their protector but their natural enemy, and where the other half had been so long accustomed to consider it as their exclusive private property, was not the country in which we ought to invest the local magistracy with any extraordinary powers, He therefore agreed, that the fit course was, to vest such powers, not in the ordinary local magistracy, but in the Lord-lieutenant for the time being, who was at the head of that magistracy, with full liberty to exercise them on his own responsibility, either in putting down the Catholic Association, or in refraining from putting down other Associations. As far, then, as the bill went, the Lord-lieutenant might issue his proclamation or warrant to two justices, authorising them to suppress any one assembly or meeting; and so far the principle of the bill was placed, for the purposes of its administration, in the best hands, and in those in which it could be most safely lodged. But, unfortunately the bill—and he said this not so much in the spirit of opposition to it, as in the hope that his suggestion might lead the House to avoid any departure from its principle—unfortunately the bill went much further. Two justices of the peace were selected by the Lord-lieutenant, and were intrusted with the execution of his warrant. They were bound to enforce it to the utmost of their power, and to prohibit all associations and assemblies which it denounced as illegal. So far all was well; but then the bill provided, that after the Lord-lieutenant had armed with power two magistrates whom he had selected,—and he did not blame the framers of the bill for giving the Lord-lieutenant authority to make such selection, for the Lord-lieutenant could not be every where, and his responsibility to parliament would force him to select trustworthy persons,—it should be lawful for the same two magistrates, or for any two justices of the peace who might happen to be present, to proceed to apprehend and bring before them all persons who should refuse to depart, after the first two magistrates had declared the assembly to be illegal. Nay, more, it was made lawful for any two magistrates, within whose jurisdiction such illegal assembly should be held, to issue their warrants against such offenders, to proceed against them summarily, to convict them, either on the view of one magistrate so present, or on the oath of one or more credible witness or witnesses, and to sentence them to an imprisonment of three calendar months for a first offence, and to an imprisonment of twelve calendar months for a second or any subsequent offence, without any right of appeal whatever. What signified, then, the responsibility of the Lord-lieutenant, if any two magistrates who happened to be present, no matter how factious or partial they might be, could bring before them, and convict, on the view of any one of them, any person, without appeal, whom they might choose to suppose had attended an illegal meeting, put down, not by themselves, but by the two magistrates selected by the Lord-lieutenant? Suppose, for instance, that a Catholic justice should be present when an Orange Association, or a Brunswick Club, was put down as illegal by the two magistrates selected by the Lord-lieutenant; and suppose that he should have a desire to harass and oppress any individual, who, for some reason or another, had become obnoxious to him—all he had to do was, to have that individual brought before himself and another magistrate; and then he could say, in spite of all the other individual's asseverations to the contrary, "I saw you attend at such a meeting; don't contradict me. I saw you there; I convict you on my own view; and you shall go to prison for three months, if it is your first offence, and for twelve months, if it is your second; and you shall have no appeal against my conviction." He had put the case as of a Catholic justice against an Orange associator; for the Catholic Association was at the moment at which he had the honour of addressing them, dissolved; and therefore the case of an Orange justice against a Catholic associator could not occur. But other cases of a similar description might occur; and he was bound to see that the constitution was not violated with respect to other associations. He had put the case, he repeated, of two Catholic justices, acting either on their own view or on the information of some other Catholic, prejudiced against the Brunswick or Orange clubs, led away by a zeal which he could not control, and swearing that he had seen the Brunswicker attending a meeting at which he had never been present. A conviction in such a case must pass against the Brunswicker; and when once passed, as it was without appeal, it could not be removed. Now this was a proceeding to which he should be loth to give his consent; and he said this the more readily, as he thought that it might be altered, without departing from the principle of the bill. He was now arguing on the idea that the measure was to be made effectual; for if it were passed at all, no doubt it ought to be made effectual. He lamented exceedingly that it must be passed: he denied that there was any necessity for passing it, before the measure which they had been assured should follow it. That measure should have been passed first, and then the present measure would have been rendered unnecessary. But, as his noble friend, the member for Bedfordshire, had observed on a former occasion, in practical politics we must sometimes bend to considerations of necessity and expediency:—we cannot pursue our own views as we could wish, and we must therefore be content with accomplishing them as far as we can. He must consider this first measure as the price of the greater measure which was to follow it; and, considering it as such, he would say, "if it be necessary to be passed, let it be passed in such a way as is least likely to increase the evils which the measure that is to follow it is intended to put down." He had now stated the grounds which had induced him to give his assent, though very reluctantly, to the present bill; and they were simply and exclusively these—that he had reason to suppose that it would be impossible to carry the other bill without first carrying this. In conclusion, he would merely observe, that he had no doubt not only that the Catholic Association was at that moment dissolved—not only that it would not be attempted to be revived—not only that they were employed in legislating against the mere shadow of a name—not only that the other great measure, which he trusted was to follow this as quickly as possible, and would be carried as securely, would have the effect of preventing the Catholics from desiring to renew the proceedings against which this bill was directed, and which the legislature had now been endeavouring for the last five-and-twenty years in vain to put down—but that it would also prove the commencement of a conciliatory system of government in Ireland, which, in a few years, would make it the astonishment of them all that they had so long remained in doubt and difficulty upon a question, which, after all, was found so easy to settle.

trusted that the House would allow him to say a few words in answer to the observations which the hon. and learned gentleman had made upon the supposed authority which this bill gave to the magistrates of Ireland in general. The object of the clause with which the hon. and learned gentleman found fault was, to render the bill effectual, as it was admitted it ought to be rendered, if it was passed at all, and not to place the liberty of the subject under the risk of abuse from any of the local magistracy. He apprehended that, under this bill, no magistrate would have power to interfere with any assembly until the Lord-lieutenant had pronounced it illegal. He apprehended further, that no magistrate, even after the Lord-lieutenant had pronounced it illegal, would have power to direct its dispersion, until he received express authority to that effect from his lordship. The only magistrates who had power to demand admission into any place where there was reason to believe that an unlawful association or assembly was held, were two magistrates selected by the Lord-lieutenant, and specially appointed by him to disperse it. Now, if it were possible to provide, that those two magistrates should have jurisdiction within every part of Ireland, or that they should be present in every part of Ireland, at one and the same time, that would be enough: but, suppose that the parties who refused to depart from the meeting which the two magistrates ordered to disperse should escape from the place in which it was held, how were they to deal with such offenders? It was easy to say, that only those two magistrates should take cognizance of the offence so committed; but those two magistrates might be engaged in other duties at a distance from the spot where such offenders were apprehended, and thus it would be necessary to keep them in custody until those magistrates were once more at leisure to examine them. The reason for granting to the magistrates a power of summary conviction was, to prevent delay in the operation of the bill, and to give it that energy and efficacy which was so material to its success.—The right hon. gentleman then proceeded to defend the power of summary conviction given to two magistrates. If the hon. and learned gentleman could provide any means of appeal from this summary conviction, without destroying the efficacy of the bill, he should be most happy to attend to his suggestions. He would call the attention of the hon. and learned gentleman to the vast difference which existed between the penalties of the pre- sent bill and those of the bill passed in 1819, for the suppression of these associations. By the bill which was passed at that time, the magistrates had power to suppress any assembly which was sworn on oath to be dangerous. If the parties attending such meetings, after hearing their order to disperse, refused to depart, their offence was declared felony, which rendered it impossible for them to be admitted to bail, and their punishment amounted to nothing less than transportation for seven years. It appeared to him that a less punishment would meet the object which he had in view, on the present occasion. He had therefore reduced the punishment from transportation for seven years, to imprisonment for three months; and, as no bail could be given for the felony under the old act, he did not see any objection to making the conviction summary under the present. He was sure the hon. and learned gentleman would, upon consideration, see that there were sound reasons why he should not confine the jurisdiction to the two magistrates whom the Lord-lieutenant might select to put down illegal meetings

called the attention of the right hon. gentleman to the words of the clause to which he objected. The clause stated, that if the persons assembled at one of these illegal meetings should not disperse within a quarter of an hour from the time of the notice given to that effect by the two magistrates selected by the Lord-lieutenant, "it should be lawful for the same magistrates, or for any two justices of the peace then present," to cause such persons so refusing to depart, to be apprehended; and such persons so apprehended might be proceeded against in a summary way for such offence, before any two justices of the peace before whom they might be brought, and were, when convicted thereof, to be imprisoned for three or twelve calendar months as the case might be. Now it was clear, from this clause, that any two magistrates might convict an individual for an offence against its provisions, and that, too, without appeal. He admitted that the considerations which he had just urged ought rather to be reserved for the discussion on the bill in the committee, than to be made on the second reading of it; but his anxiety to render it effectual must be taken as his excuse for mentioning the subject now.

The bill was then read a second time.