presented a Petition from the parish of St. Augustine, Bristol, against the Roman Catholic Claims, and praying for the suppression of the Catholic Association. The hon. member stated, that the petition was the result of a meeting convened in Bristol, at which the mayor of Bristol presided. There was seldom so much unanimity displayed at meetings. The majority in favour of the petition was that of a hundred to one, which tended to show that there was a strong feeling in the country that the constitution should remain unaltered.

rose, to present a petition from the Chancellor, Masters, and Scholars of the University of Oxford, against the Catholic claims. The petition, the right hon. gentleman said, expressed opinions decidedly adverse to the further concession of political power to the Roman Catholics. He felt himself bound to state, that the opinions expressed in this petition were couched in still stronger terms than those used upon any former occasion. He felt himself bound also to state, that the petition had not been agreed to without clue notice having been given of the intention to bring it forward; that it was agreed to by a more numerous assembly than had ever before been convened for such a purpose in the university; and that, though not carried unanimously, it was carried by a larger majority than upon any former occasion. The numbers for the petition were 164; against it 48. He felt it his duty to present this petition, in the absence of his hon. colleague, who was prevented from attending by a domestic calamity; and under these circumstances, he felt it incumbent on him to state the circumstances under which the petition had been agreed to, and the relative numbers in favour of and againt its adoption.

said, that, anxious as he was for the interests of the country, and for the welfare of that establishment with which those interests were so intimately connected, he felt it necessary to state his sentiments on the momentous question to which the petition related. He deemed it to be his duty to deliver them now; for he must say, that the surprise and disappointment which he experienced at the opening of the session, were so great, as almost to deprive him of the power of giving utterance to his feelings. He, and those who thought as he did, were astonished at the great change which had taken place in the opinions of his majesty's councils. They were not prepared for such a proceeding; and he confessed, that he especially felt regret at the alteration which had been effected in the opinions of the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department, because he had hitherto considered him as the great supporter of the Protestant interest. Indeed, from the correspondence which had passed between his right hon. friend and himself, he should have thought that no such change could possibly have taken place. In saying this, he could assure his right hon. friend, that he was actuated by no unkind or invidious feeling. He admitted, most broadly, that his right hon. friend had an undoubted right to change his opinions. He imputed no blame to his right hon. friend, but at the same time, he could not avoid lamenting so important a defection from that cause which his right hon. friend had so long and so ably advocated. He did so the more especially, because the change that had taken place had, as it were, paralyzed the efforts of numbers who were disposed to rely entirely on the efforts of the great man at the head of the administration, seconded by those of his right hon. friend. He had listened with the utmost attention to the explanatory speech made by his right hon. friend at the opening of the session, and also to the speech delivered by his right hon. friend, when he introduced the bill for suppressing the Catholic Association—a speech of which he highly approved, because it contained a picture of that lamentable state of things in Ireland, which had led the right hon. Secretary to change his ideas on this important subject. Still, however, there did not appear to him to have been any reasons adduced sufficient to account for this alteration of opinion. He had heard nothing upon that occasion, or scarcely any thing, but what had already appeared in the publications of the day; and he must say, that there was no effervescence of feeling in Ireland—no system of intimidation or of insurrection—that might not have been put down by other means than that of granting concessions. He felt the most firm conviction, that the noble duke at the head of the ministry, could have suppressed any insurrectionary demonstration in Ireland, without having recourse to any such measure as that now contemplated. The protestant spirit had been roused in that country, and it would, in case of danger, have rallied round and preserved the constitution. On these grounds, he would say, that he had not heard any sufficient reason for the adoption of a measure, fraught with such extreme peril. If the dangers described by the right hon. Secretary, had even been ten times greater than they really were, he could not conceive that the ministers of the Crown had any right, in endeavouring to avert them, to infringe upon the vital principle of the constitution. That vital principle was, that the government should be wholly, essentially, and exclusively Protestant. If that principle was once broken in upon, the constitution was at an end. On one point he entirely agreed with the right hon. Secretary. He agreed with him, that the system adopted of late years—that of the administration adhering to a neutrality on this subject—was absurd, and ought not to be continued. It was the most dangerous thing for the state of the sister island that could possibly happen; because it must tend to keep alive acrimonious feelings amongst both parties, whereas, by pursuing decisive measures, those feelings would be removed. For himself, he thought that a Protestant king ought to be surrounded by a Protestant parliament, and assisted by a purely Protestant administration, and he had no doubt, that in this great, powerful, and enlightened empire, such an administration might be found to conduct its affairs with safety and success. It was said, however, that notwithstanding the objection that was generally expressed to the granting of concessions, measures might be devised to prevent the apprehended danger. Now, be must beg leave to say, that, with respect to securities on so serious a subject as this was, he felt very great doubt and difficulty. It appeared to him, that those who promoted this measure, would first produce the danger, and then seek the securities; they would let the enemy into the garrison, and then trust to his forbearance,—they would let the wolf get into the fold, and, that done, he would soon get rid of his muzzle, and make use of those weapons with which he was provided, to effect their destruction. The whole scheme of securities appeared to him to be completely illusory. The only real security which Protestants could have, was the total exclusion of the Roman Catholics. It was said to be essentially necessary, that this question should be settled. Now, he had always conceived, that it was finally settled before the Revolution took place; and that the proceeding was then confirmed, as a settlement, by the Revolution. It was allowed, on all hands, that popery had neither changed nor could change; that it remained immutable. If this were so, then he could see no reason for any change in our Protestant constitution. Were not Catholics excluded from this and the other House of parliament, by oaths administered for the purpose of protecting the Protestant Church? Then, assuredly, if they introduced a Roman Catholic to either House of parliament, they admitted a conscientious opponent of that Church, who would do his utmost to undermine it. This was a danger against which they ought to guard watchfully; for it was quite impossible, when Roman Catholics were once introduced, that they should pot endeavour to subvert the established Church. And who would be the persons most likely to get into parliament? Why, those very individuals who were more especially attached to the tenets of the Catholic Church, and who were, therefore, the more dangerous. Why, then, should they create a positive evil, against which there could be no effectual safeguard?—They had been told, that it was necessary to bring this question to a satisfactory conclusion. On that subject he perfectly agreed; but he must say, that it was impossible to point out any security that could be satisfactory. He denied that any such could be found; and, if the boon were granted with any species of securities, the Roman Catholics would not be satisfied. Why, then, did they entertain this question at all? It was said that this measure would remove the dissension and ill-will which now prevailed in Ireland; but, was it likely that it could be carried, without producing animosities among the Protestants, both there and in this country? And thus, perhaps, the business would end in that very civil war, which these efforts were intended to prevent. They could not, he maintained, grant concession without incurring danger, against which no precaution could avail. He was perfectly satisfied that the Catholic claims could not be granted, without weakening the settlement of the House of Brunswick to the throne of these realms,—they could not be granted, without departing from that line of policy which had raised Great Britain to her present high rank amongst the nations of the earth,—they could not be granted, without danger to that Church, which had long shone as the glory of the Reformation,—they could not be granted, without contemning that Providence, which had so long and so signally preserved our constitution. He, however, hoped, that those dreadful evils would be averted by the efforts of the people; and he was sure that all true Protestants, in every part of the country, would, to a man, resist those claims. He belonged to a united band of true Protestants, who were determined to use all proper and constitutional modes to prevent the introduction of the Roman Catholics into either House of parliament, or to high offices in the state, on any conditions whatever.

said, he should not have risen to offer one word of observation on the speech of the hon. member, if he had abstained from using a particular expression, which he certainly had heard with great surprise. He had been pleased to announce to the House, that it was the intention of all true Protestants, to oppose this measure of concession. Now the hon. member would allow him to say, that no gentlemen who opposed that measure had any right to arrogate to themselves the exclusive character of true Protestants. The right hon. Secretary, who had done himself so much honour by stating his intention to propose a measure on this subject to the House, and those who were determined to support that measure, assumed to themselves, and justly, as much true Protestantism as the hon. member could boast of. He had always considered true Protestantism to be based upon liberty of conscience: he had always considered true Protestantism to have been established on general information, and the truth and spirit of the gospel,—which resisted persecution, and rested itself on the purity of its doctrine. To that he looked for the security of the Protestant Church and constitution. He had always considered the best security of that Church to consist in entire liberty of opinion. Whether he was right in his view of the subject, or the hon. member was right in his, he would never hear the title "true Protestant" ascribed exclusively to those who opposed the Catholic claims, without protesting against the right they had to arrogate to themselves any such distinction.

said, he certainly did not mean to arrogate the character of "true Protestants" exclusively to himself and those who thought as he did.

was of opinion, that those gentlemen who inveighed, at such great length, against the Catholic claims, would do much better if they would point out what they had to offer as a substitute for that concession which appeared to them so very alarming. He could wish the hon. gentleman, who had just explained, to say whether he would advise his majesty's government to meet the present state of Ireland with absolute coercion? Whether he would advise his majesty's government to decide this great domestic question by the sword? He thought that, if such were his advice, the noble duke at the head of the government would reject it. That noble duke knew well the temper of the people of this country—he knew well how to appreciate the gratitude which they felt towards him for the protection which his sword had afforded to his country; but he knew equally well, that by the sword alone Great Britain would never consent to be governed.

said, he should not have thought it necessary to trouble the House, if it had not been for one expression which had occurred in the speech of the hon. member for Gloucester,—an expression which, he confessed, he had not before heard in that House, though he found that it had been most sagaciously used elsewhere. The hon. member had said, that the proposed measure would impair the title of the House of Brunswick to the throne. Amongst certain publications which had fallen into his hands, and which he had read with great concern, he found precisely the same offensive allusion. One of the morning papers had recently contained the following passage:—"It was only the childless possessor of a throne, who could seek thus to impair the title of his family to the succession." Now, what was that title? How was it created? By the choice of a free people; for it was the undeniable right of the parliament of this country to limit the succession to the throne. It was upon that principle that the House of Brunswick was called in, not only for the preservation of our religion, but for the maintenance of our liberties, and be thought it was most desirable as the House of Brunswick came in on such a principle, that it should, be well understood. The hon. gentleman had expressed his wonder, that no grounds, satisfactory to him, had been stated by the right hon. Secretary of State, for altering, not his opinion, but his line of conduct. Now, in his view of the case, it was a matter of wonder that that alteration had not long ago taken place in the mind of his right hon. friend. He lamented deeply that it had not because he believed, that the degree of gratitude with which this boon would then have been received, would have been greater; and because he feared a longer time must now elapse before the agitated waves, which had beer chafed into a storm by the constant rejection of this question, subsided into a calm. They must wait for some time, until there were no remains of those conflicting opinions, which had agitated the country so long, before they could hope for permanent tranquillity. But a person like his right hon. friend, who looked on this measure as a choice of evils, would undoubtedly adopt every necessary step to secure that tranquillity as speedily as possible. It was impossible to conceive what the increased danger, attendant on the settlement of this question, would be—it was impossible to conceive when the fulfilment of those prophecies of mischief, which they had so often heard, would take place; but, on the other hand, no man who attended to the subject could deny, that the existing and palpable evils which his right hon. friend had described, had increased rapidly within the last two years, and must continue to increase, if concession was withheld. The hon. gentleman had expressed it as his opinion, that the institution of Brunswick clubs had been useful. Now, if there were one thing more than another which pleased him in the measure lately introduced, it was because it gave the power of putting down all those associations, whether Brunswick or Catholic. The hon. gentleman might look on the Brunswick clubs as formed for the purest and most necessary objects; but could he be blind to the fact, that if they were allowed to subsist, coun- ter-efforts would be made on the other side? He hoped that the putting down of the Catholic Association would be followed by the suppression of other combinations; because, if this were not done, the inevitable consequence must be, that there would be a constant conflict of parties. He felt, that his right hon. friend had done himself the highest possible honour, by the course he had taken. He knew it might be said to his right hon, friend, "why did you not retire from office, and pursue the course you have done as an individual member of parliament?" He would say, that if his right hon. friend, after fair consideration—after balancing between the choice of evils—evils which he saw, and evils which were contingent—the evils of concession, and the evils of refusal—if, after that mature consideration, his right hon. friend thought, as a minister, that it was for the interests of the country which he was bound to watch over, that a measure of concession should be conceded, then it was his duty to propose it, whatever might be the sacrifice. But, what would have been the case if his right hon. friend had retired from office, and had said, "I will support this measure as an independent member of parliament with my individual vote, but I do not think it consistent with my former conduct to act as a minister?" Why, every one of those gentlemen who now complained, would then accuse his right hon. friend with having acted a mean, juggling, shallow, artificial part. Would it not be said, that "he retired from office merely to escape the odium of bringing forward the obnoxious measure; but, relying on the reputation he has established, he knows that he may return to office whenever this measure is completed?" For his own part, he thought that such conduct would have been most cowardly, and have merited severe censure and general indignation. His right hon. friend had adopted a different course; and, for one, he had his (Mr. Wynn's) most hearty and cordial concurrence.

said, he could assure his hon. friend the member for Gloucester, that whatever opinion he might express, it could never shake the perfect esteem which he felt for his character, or his decided conviction, that his hon. friend would never take any course, on any public question, without the most deliberate consideration and the most honest conviction. He rose chiefly to complain, but with perfect good humour, that his hon. friend had alluded to a correspondence which had taken place between them. He would tell his hon. friend that he would rather have the correspondence in question read though private, than alluded to. When his hon. friend had written to him upon the subject of the intentions of government, his respect for his hon. friend, had prevented him from adopting the course which, as a member of the government, he might have adopted; namely, abstaining from any reply; but every one knew how difficult it was, on such an occasion, to frame any reply which would be satisfactory. His hon. friend had also observed, that he saw nothing in the state of Ireland which might not have been put down by the strong hand of the noble duke at the head of the government. He fully concurred with his hon. friend in that opinion; but he would repeat what he had said before when the people had been put down by force, where should we then be? In the year 1798, the rebellion was effectually suppressed by the employment of a strong military force, and he had not the slightest doubt that the same success would attend an exertion of the same kind at the present moment. What he wished, however, to impress upon his hon. friend and upon the House, as the conviction of his mind, was, that after the most complete success, the question would remain precisely as it was but with all animosities which before existed, doubly infuriated, and with all the relations of society, and all the connections between man and man, poisoned to an infinitely greater extent, than they were before that collision took place. Could his hon. friend, too, who expressed so much regard for the Protestant Church, contemplate the situation in which that Church would be placed by such a contest, or could he feel any satisfaction that its liberties had been preserved by that force only? the point to which they must turn their minds was, how to allay irritation; not how to exasperate it. When gentlemen argued that this question ought to be brought to the issue of a civil contest, they should not only look to the immediate issue of that contest, but should also consider what were the evils that would arise on the moment, and the long succession of miseries that would inevitably follow.

said, he would take that opportunity of asking his majesty's ministers what were their intentions with respect to the Finance Committee. It would be in the recollection of the House, that a great portion of the time of that committee had been occupied in providing materials which were necessary to enable them to form a correct opinion upon the subjects into which they were appointed to inquire, little, therefore, had as yet been effected by that committee; and he was anxious to learn whether it was the intention of government to revive it this session. He was also anxious to know if ministers were prepared with any system by which the public accounts might be simplified. It was, perhaps, not generally known to the House, that the Finance Committee had appointed a commission to make themselves masters of the form and manner in which the public accounts, not only of this, but of other countries, were kept, in order that they might submit some intelligible plan of keeping those accounts, which should supersede the mysterious and perplexed system now acted upon. It was a reproach to this country, that, while the public accounts of other countries were clear and distinct, ours were perfectly unintelligible. The public accounts of France and America, were intelligible to any man who understood the first four rules of arithmetic.

assured the hon. member that there was no indisposition on the part of ministers to revive the Finance Committee. Considering, however, the duties which now devolved upon the government, he had, after communicating with several members of the committee, come to the determination to defer, for some time, the revival of the committee. If the hon. member thought that any facilities would be afforded by the materials to which he had alluded being laid upon the table, he had no objection to the production of them. With respect to the commission, to which the hon. member had referred, they had, ever since their appointment, been assiduously employed upon the task committed to them, and it was only within the last few days that their report had come to his hands. It was extremely voluminous, and he had not yet been able to peruse it. He would, however, at the earliest opportunity, examine it, and state his opinion upon it.

said, it would doubtless be in the recollection of the House, what his individual opinion had been with respect to the Finance Committee. He had always thought that little good would be done, unless the subjects which were to occupy the attention of this one committee were divided among a number of committees. His anticipations had been fully realized. Certainly, the Finance Committee had not been deficient in labour and diligence, but the documents and evidence which had come before them were so voluminous, that though it was thought extravagant in him at the beginning of the session to propose that so many committees should be appointed, he was convinced that, at the end of the session, not one of the committee had any doubt that his proposal was a good one.

The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, the chancellor of the Exchequer moved, "That 28,046,800l. be granted to His Majesty to pay off and discharge Exchequer Bills, and that the same be issued and applied towards paying off and discharging Exchequer Bills charged on the Aids or Supplies of the years 1828 and 1829, now remaining unpaid or unprovided for."

said, that though this was dealing in very large sums, he did not object to the vote. Upon it, however, turned a question of great importance. The unfunded debt had occupied a large portion of the time of the Finance Committee, and he therefore thought that the government ought now to tell them how far they meant to continue the unfunded debt, which had been declared to be considerably larger than it ought to be. The dangers of such a debt were now well understood; and though there was no panic at present, yet, if such an event were to happen, serious consequences would arise from having such a large unfunded debt. He knew he should be told that this information would be more properly given when the general state of the finances was laid before the House, and that it would be inconvenient to give it now; but he had always contended, that before the public money was voted, ministers ought to tell what they meant to do With it.

said, that the hon. member had anticipated his objection to complying with his request. Every body must see that a premature disclosure of the intentions of government was calculated to produce great inconvenience. It would have no other effect than to excite speculation, and to involve the money market in perplexity. Without, therefore, the least intention of concealment, he must refuse to satisfy the hon. member.

thought, that the declaration of the intentions of government would come more opportunely now, and be more likely to prevent the speculations which the right hon. gentleman apprehended, than at any other period. It was his opinion, an opinion in which the House concurred last session, that the unfunded debt should be diminished as soon as possible. In the revenue of last year there had been a surplus; and there was ground for anticipating, with due attention to economy, a surplus in the revenue of the present year. In the event of this surplus exceeding the estimated expenditure, he thought it might be well applied to the diminution of this debt.

The resolution was agreed to.

said, that unavailing as might be any praise that he could bestow upon the right hon. Secretary, and lightly as he might value it, he could assure him that his conduct on the present occasion met with his warmest approbation. It was as creditable to the right hon. gentleman, as his opposition to the measure of relief to the Catholics had hitherto been straight-forward and honourable. When the hon. member for Dorsetshire and others said, there was nothing in the present state of Ireland which justified the change that had taken place in the sentiments of the right hon. gentleman, he would remark that those gentlemen knew little of the state of Ireland; for, whatever excitement prevailed in that country before was trifling, compared to the excitement and party spirit that at present raged, from one end to the other of the country. It was too late now to talk of the infringement of the constitution. When the first infringement was made by the Union it should have been accompanied with the concession about to be granted. Without such a measure, the Union could never be completed, nor Ireland tranquillised. With regard to the bill before the House, he approached it with hesitation. He had given his cordial support to the act of 1825, because he thought it necessary, and that it would lead to the measure to which this bill was to lead. He should be much better satisfied if the present bill and the measure for the relief of the Catholics had been introduced simultaneously. Having voted for the act of 1825, and having been disappointed in the consequences which he expected from that act, he thought it but justice to say, that, in his opinion, had it not been for the Association, the Catholic question would never have been thus far advanced. Every body who knew him would believe that he did not say this, in order to procure the good opinion of the Association. He confessed he felt a deep interest in the question: he would rather see a Catholic occupying his place in that house than be there himself. He hoped that government had calculated well on the success of the measure that was to follow the present one; for if they carried the measure of coercion without the measure of concession, all the excitement which had hitherto taken place would be trifling to what would hereafter arise. He, therefore, confidently hoped that both measures would pass. He had the fullest confidence in the noble duke at the head of the government, and in the right hon. gentleman, that they would carry both measures successfully, and satisfactorily to the whole country.

The House then resolved itself into a committee on the bill, which was read paragraph by paragraph. A short conversation took place on the first clause, to which a verbal amendment was proposed by Mr. Moore, in the passage in which the future meeting of the members of the Catholic Association is prohibited, but which he eventually withdrew. On the second clause,

asked, whether, when the lord lieutenant had issued his proclamation or order against any particular society, the magistrates to whom the order was addressed might not put it in their pocket, and avail themselves of it at any period they might think proper?

replied, that if the society in question dissolved their meeting, and afterwards re-assembled in another place, the magistrates would have the power of preventing such an evasion of the law.

wished that the terms of the proclamation had been defined in the bill. It now rested with the lord lieutenant to use what terms he chose; and if they were too general, they might put the magistrates intrusted with its execution in a situation of great difficulty.

said, it ought to be considered that, in all probability, the power which this bill went to confer would seldom be exercised; he trusted never. Unless the meetings were of a nature calculated to create alarm, or to endanger the public safety, the lord lieutenant would not be warranted in putting the act in force. The meetings must be continual, and must be menacing to the tranquillity of the state, Of course the lord lieutenant would specify the meeting against which his proclamation was directed; but he did not think they could assist him prospectively.

objected to too much definition, specification, and particularity, lest the law might be evaded. The potentiality of this act consisted in its generalities.

said, that the explanation which had been given by the right hon Secretary, as to the nature and probable operation of the second clause, had relieved his mind from much anxiety. He hoped that he understood the right hon. gentleman correctly in supposing he had intimated that it would be a part of the instructions to the lord lieutenant not to direct the operation of this act against any meeting, which should have no connection with party, but should be fairly and bonâ fide assembled for purposes connected with trade, commerce, elections, or the internal policy of the country. The declaration which the right hon. gentleman had made upon the subject would do a great deal of good. But there was a description of meetings that took place occasionally in Ireland, which sometimes threatened to produce great mischief, and which he thought would not be reached by this bill. This bill would not authorise any interference with the processions which frequently took place in Ireland on the 17th of March, on the 1st of July, the 12th of August, and the 4th of November. These processions were not, perhaps, illegal, but there were some circumstances about them, such as the exhibition of naked swords and of party colours, which seemed to him calculated to lead to a breach of the peace; and he should therefore suggest the introduction into the clause of the word "procession" after the word "assembly."

said, that the manner in which the hon. gentleman had proposed his amendment was sufficient to show that he brought it forward in perfect candour. He had, however, a strong objection to extending the sphere of the lord lieutenant's discretion further than the necessity of the case required; and he did not think that it would be proper to include within the operation of the bill other societies which had not been originally contemplated as its proper objects. Besides, as the law stood at present, it was quite sufficient to put down any processions which tended to endanger the public peace. In the course of the last summer processions of this kind took place to a considerable extent, and the lord lieutenant did not hesitate to issue his proclamation for their suppression, and the proclamation produced the necessary effect. As the law, therefore, was sufficient as it stood, he thought it would be better to make no additional enactment on the subject. His experience in amending the criminal law had taught him that the best mode of proceeding in such cases was to use the fewest and plainest words which could express the meaning, and when once the signification was clear, any further attempt to make it plainer only created obscurity. In framing the last law to put down this Association, it had been thought proper to make some exceptions in favour of meetings for charitable purposes, for the purpose of petitioning, and for one or two other purposes. The consequence of this was, that the Association, under some one of these forms, had been able to evade the provisions of the law. The object of the present measure was, to prevent the possibility of such evasion in the present instance, by enabling the lord lieutenant to meet the Association in whatever form it might appear. The power which the lord lieutenant possessed, although discretionary, was exercised under a heavy responsibility. He begged to state, that he intended to adopt the suggestion made yesterday evening by the hon. and learned member for Winchelsea; namely, that the powers should be confined to the two magistrates to whom the order of the lord lieutenant should issue, and that it should extend to other magistrates, only in the event of the offending parties evading the law by flight.

The clause was agreed to, as were also the other clauses, after a short conversation.