rose, pursuant to notice, to present a petition signed by 8,500 inhabitants of Norwich against further concessions to the Catholics. He assured the House, that the petition was worthy of its attention, as well from the respectability as the number of the persons whose signatures were affixed to it.

said, he was at a loss to know what claim the petition just presented had to the distinction of a preliminary notification. If the petitioners had stated any thing of importance in their petition, it might have been a reason why this distinction should be bestowed upon it. If they had proposed any well-digested plan, instead of the measure proposed by his majesty's government, it might then have been entitled to the significant notice given by the hon. member; but it now appeared that it contained no such suggestion, but was drawn up in the ordinary tone and language of desperate delusion. It was only one instance more how confident men could be in their own opinion—so confident as to reject the opinions of the best and greatest men,—so confident as to reject the opinions of those persons by whom they had been used to swear, until the reason of those persons taught them to retract and to abandon their errors,—so confident as to wish to overthrow the duke of Wellington, and to destroy his government,—to pull down one duke and to put up another;—so confident as to shut their ears to the loud calls for a measure, which justice and policy alike required. Of that measure he must be allowed to say one word. His opinion was, that it was the best, the purest, the most beneficent mea sure since the Revolution. It was a measure of justice, of policy, of charity. It was not an English measure, nor a Scotch measure, nor an Irish measure—it was a British measure. It was not a Protestant measure, nor a Popish measure,—it was a Christian measure. It was a measure calculated to raise Ireland from that horrid abyss of misery and wretchedness into which she had so long been sunk, to add strength and stability to the empire, and to surround the reign of his majesty with additional lustre. What reign would now present a more glorious page in the history of the world? The morning of its days had shone upon the utter defeat of the greatest foreign be that had ever threatened this country, and its evening would be marked by the destruction of the most formidable of domestic enemies—the demon of religious discord. And how had his majesty been able to confer these benefits on the people? By adding sound intellect to patriotic feeling—by having in his service a man like the noble duke, who had a head to conceive, and a hand to execute; and a man like the right hon. Secretary of State, who was open to conviction—who had the manliness to avow his conviction, and to perform his duty, in spite of the cruel kindness of his friends, who wished him to stumble on in their darkness, rather than walk erect in his own light. To these illustrious persons he would say, "Macte nova virtute"—Go straightforward. Turn neither to the right nor to the left for any man; but above all things take no counsel from the camp of the enemy. Be proof against intimidation, however nonsensical—against passion, however Protestant—against prejudice, however obstinate. As the duke of Wellington had well said, the less they troubled their heads about securities the better. The measure might be trusted upon its own recognizances. There could be little apprehension that it would injure the Protestant establishments, coming as it did from those who by long experience had proved themselves to be the greatest friends to those establishments.

said, he thought the hon. gentleman who presented the petition, as well as his fellow citizens of Norwich, who had signed it, had some reason to complain of the hon. member for Shaftesbury, who found fault with the language of the petition before he had heard it read. From rather a longer acquaintance with the city of Norwich than that of the hon. member opposite, he might state, that there were two parties there constantly and violently opposed to each other, under the guidance of the leaders of certain clubs, generally, as usual in such cases, persons more abounding in zeal than in discretion. This petition was carried about from house to house, and the representation made was, of course, that the Protestant establishments of these realms were in the most imminent danger. Here, however, he must again controvert the position of the hon. member for Shaftesbury, who accused the citizens of Norwich of an arrogant attempt to shake the administration of the duke of Wellington, as he thought, from local and personal knowledge, he might venture to assure the hon member, that, if his grace the duke of Wellington had condescended to honour the citizens of Norwich with his confidence and had signified his pleasure to them, through the right hon. Secretary, the brother of the hon. member, one half of the procurers of signatures might have been persuaded to an equal activity in getting up a petition in the contrary sense. But the truth was, that the people of Norwich, and, he believed, of this whole country, were really, essentially, zealously Protestant; and the natural and necessary inference was, that there could not exist a shadow of a danger, in conceding to a small body of English Catholics their civil rights, or of completing the Union with Ireland, by receiving a limited number of representatives from that country of another religion; and those persons who apprehended, or stated themselves to apprehend, any great peril must have a strange misgiving, either of the strength or the excellence of the institution they profess to support.

said, that at a time when the constitution was attacked on all sides—when those who had been considered its supporters were labouring to sap its foundation—it was the duty of every individual in the House, but more particularly for those members who were connected with Ireland, fearlessly to come forward and state what were their opinions on this subject at this awful crisis, and the motives which actuate them in giving their votes. The right hon. Secretary for the Home Department, thought proper, some nights ago, to lay before the House communications which had been made to his majesty's Government, respecting the state of Ireland. Now he asked that right hon. gentleman, in common candour, whether he could not have brought forward much more alarming statements at any time, during the last ten years? That right hon. gentleman had told them that, ever since the last decision of that House, with respect to the Catholic claims, he had determined never more to be in a minority on that subject. The new light had burst upon the right hon. gentleman in the propitious month of July, and the miracle of his conversion was consummated in August. This might be all very well; but he grieved that such was the case, for the Protestant cause had thereby lost one of its most able advocates. And yet the communications which the right hon. gentleman had read originated in the month of September, and could therefore have no part in a conversion which commenced in July and was consummated in August. The right hon. gentleman had stated, that he had no further information to give, and that it would be inconvenient to answer any more questions; but he would tell the right hon. gentleman, that his majesty's ministers would find it much more inconvenient to stifle the indignant voice of the Protestants of Ireland. He regretted that circumstances had prevented his attendance during the early stages of the bill for suppressing associations in Ireland; but he would now say, that that measure bore all the marks of that dangerous delusion which had beset the government. Though apparently intended to put down the Catholic Association, it was in fact levelled against institutions of the most loyal character. That the Catholic Association ought to be suppressed, no one who had seen the inflammatory speeches of its members could doubt. There could be no doubt that to suppress it, all risks ought to be run. But was this a time to remove the safeguards of our glorious constitution, when it was admitted that danger existed, and when the arch-agitator of Ireland had hurled the gauntlet of defiance at the very door of that House? What was the cause of the disturbances and outrages in Ireland?' Might they not, in a great measure, be attributed to a superabundant population, who were trying to get possession of the land? He believed that there would, some time ago, have been much less danger in admitting a few Catholics to seats in that House, than in allowing the elective franchise to remain as it was in the hands of an ignorant, priest-ridden population. If the present state of affairs in Ireland was to be attributed to any one individual more than to another, it was to the right hon. Secretary of State. It might have been prevented: the Catholic Association might have been crushed. How had the Catholic Convention been crushed by a former attorney-general? By the common law; and by the common law, too, the Association might have been crushed, if it had not been, in a manner, legalised by what was called the Algerine Act. And here let him make an observation respecting the inflammatory, the rebellious, the treasonable language by which the priests had profaned the very altar. The priests had endeavoured to raise a mutiny among the soldiers, and to seduce the military from their ranks. This had taken place in Naas, and no notice had been taken of it. Under such circumstances, nothing could be more impolitic than to remove the disabilities which it had been thought necessary to impose upon the Catholics. Let the elective franchise be properly regulated, and the influence of the priests broken; and then, and not till then, let them see whether that which was now recommended could be effected.—He could not help adverting to the conduct which had been pursued by the government. He regretted the change which had taken place in the right hon. Secretary, who until now had been the distinguished and triumphant upholder of the constitution. He did that right hon. gentleman the justice to think, that he was actuated by an imperious sense of duty, and that he had most unwillingly embarked in his present course; but the country loudly, deeply, and bitterly complained of the deception and delusion which had been practised on it. To begin with the hon. member for Derry (Mr. G. Dawson). His speech at Derry, considering the circumstances, was uncalled for and unnecessary. It had been made at a festive board, where the hon. member was surrounded by constituents not his own, and where, though present as a mere individual, he had risen to wound the feelings of his Protestant hearers. Well might they exclaim "Et to Brute!" Then the right hon. Secretary had made a triumphant progress through the country, during which a generous and confiding people had paid that homage which they thought due to him as the champion of the Protestant cause. The right hon. gentleman received that homage, though at the very moment he knew that he had abandoned all claim to the title of the Protestant champion. He wished to speak of, as he had always felt towards, the right hon. gentleman. He believed that he had acted in all sincerity, and had been induced, perhaps, to take this course by an excess of charity—that blessed characteristic of our religion. If so, the right hon. gentleman was in the situation of those who, having studied religion most deeply, ended by becoming atheists. He now came to the part which the noble duke had taken in the present transactions. In July last, he understood the noble duke to have declared that his opinions remained unchanged respecting the Catholic question; and, moreover he understood the noble duke to have said, that if he were obliged to live in Ireland, he would become a member of a Brunswick Club. In the letter of the duke of Wellington to the Catholic Archbishop, shortly before the meeting of parliament, he recommended that the question should be buried in oblivion, and that the intermediate time should be devoted to the considering of the settlement of it. It was manifest, therefore, that at the time of writing that letter, there was no intention of proposing the measure. He thought that these circumstances proved that delusion had been practised on this question. There was one other topic to which he wished to advert; namely, the removal of the late Lord-lieutenant of Ireland. That noble marquis had won golden opinions from all sorts of men in that country; and, as government had resolved upon proposing this measure, he was at a loss to account for the recal of the noble marquis. He trusted, however, in justice to that noble person, that full information would be given to the House, explanatory of the circumstances.

said, that his hon. friend, the member for Newton, had so accurately stated what had occurred at Norwich, that it was scarcely necessary for him to offer a single word. He did not doubt the respectability of the signatures to the petition, but he begged leave to say, that he had been many years acquainted with the city of Norwich, and his opinion respecting the necessity of granting emanci- pation was well known there; yet he had never felt any hesitation to meet the citizens of Norwich at the pol-booth, and he had never met with any thing more than a slight attempt at opposition, which he himself had been able completely to put down; and, if there should be any necessity to go to the poll to-morrow, he had no sort of fear as to the result. He would inform the House of the reason why no petition of an opposite nature to the one now under consideration had been presented A body of persons calling themselves the friends of civil and religious liberty declared to him, that if there were any occasion, under the circumstances of the case, to petition parliament in favour of the Catholics, a petition to such effect would be prepared; but seeing that the question had been taken up by his majesty's ministers, and as they believed in all sincerity, they thought it would be superfluous to petition. He wished to say one word with respect to the general question. The noble lord, and a variety of other gentlemen chose to call themselves exclusively the Protestants. Now he begged leave to say, that he believed himself to be quite as good and as zealous a Protestant as any of them. He was quite as adverse from, and as opposed to—and he believed a great deal more—the theological opinions of the Roman Catholics, than any of those gentlemen. He would not, therefore, suffer any gentlemen to assume to themselves the exclusive name of the Protestants, because they would confine the Roman Catholics within limits in which, he thought, no sect of religionists ought to be confined. He wished for the preservation of the Protestant religion, only as long as it could maintain itself by its own strength and by argument, and not by those securities, as they were called, which were no less contemptible than unjust.

expressed his disappointment on hearing the petition read, after the notice which had been given respecting it. He had seen, the other night, the noble lord who represented the county of Buckingham present petitions from almost every parish in that county, without any notice given on the subject; but, as a notice respecting this petition from Norwich had been given, he had expected to hear the petitioners state that they were well acquainted with the state of Ireland, and with all the circumstances of that country which bore on the tranquillity, peace, and prosperity of this; and not merely that the good people of Norwich were sincerely attached to the Protestant religion, and entertained a great abhorrence of the Roman Catholic faith. He did not think that such a petition required any notice.

apologized to the House, if he had been guilty of any impropriety in giving notice of his intention to present the petition. He had done so merely that his hon. colleague, and other gentlemen who were connected with Norwich, might have an opportunity of saying what they might think proper on the subject.

rose to repel the attack made by the noble lord on the right hon. Secretary, for having deluded the people, with respect to the sentiments he entertained on the Catholic question. The right hon. gentleman did not do any thing to delude any one; and if there was any person deluded, he was deluded solely by his own folly. That right hon. gentleman remained silent when bigotry endeavoured to provoke him to declare his sentiments. From that silence he (Mr. Leycester) had drawn the inference, not that his sentiments were the same on the Catholic question, but that they were changed; and he had stated that such was the inference he drew, in a speech which he delivered at a Whig club in Cheshire in October.

presented several petitions from Devonshire, in favour of Catholic emancipation. The noble lord hoped he might be allowed to express his gratification at the prospect which now opened, of the prayer of these petitioners being carried into effect, by a final and satisfactory settlement of the Roman Catholic claims; and, in expressing his joy at this prospect, he could not refrain from paying the tribute of his gratitude and applause to the government; and to no member of it more than to the right hon. Secretary. Convinced as that right hon. gentleman now was of the necessity of the measure, he had done himself the greatest possible honour, by the manly in which he had come forward and avowed his opinion. While he was on his legs he might, perhaps, be allowed to say a few words in reference to a bill which had passed that House. Disapproving as he did in toto of the provisions of that bill, he had yet abstained from taking any part in the discussions respecting it, because he was unwilling to offer any opposition to the measure, which he was told formed a necessary preliminary step to the great measure of conciliation. Now, however, as that bill had passed, and had become inoperative, as far as the Catholic Association was concerned, by the dissolution of that body, he trusted he might be allowed to express his opinion on the subject. They had heard much of the violent and seditious language used in that association. He had taken no part in the discussions of that body, and he certainly did not mean to defend every thing that had occurred there: but he believed that more violent, more intimidating, and more seditious language than had ever been uttered in the Catholic Association had been expressed at some of the meetings of the loyal Brunswick clubs. He trusted that, as by the provisions of that bill large powers were given to government, they would be employed in putting down all dangerous associations: and he hoped that, as one association against which that bill was directed, was put down, those to whom the carrying of its provisions into effect were intrusted would put down all associations which should be found dangerous to the public peace. He should not do justice to the motives which led him to join the Catholic Association, if he did not express his opinion, that the influence established by the Association had mainly contributed to preserve peace and tranquillity in Ireland. He believed, on his conscience, that while the Association stirred up all the energies of the Catholic population to support their common cause, it at the same time taught them not to look to brute force for relief, but to that source through which it could alone prove a benefit to themselves, and a blessing to the empire at large.

presented a petition from Bristol, in favour of Catholic emancipation. He believed there was another petition of an opposite nature from the same city which was more numerously signed. The petition, however, which he had the honour of presenting, was signed by one thousand seven hundred persons; and lie would take upon himself to say, that there were many persons among the petitioners of the highest respectability. The petition had only been allowed to remain two days in Bristol Had it continued longer there, it would have been signed by three or four times the number.

said, that, though opposed to the opinions expressed in the petition, he thought it his duty to bear witness to the respectability of the signatures. He was bound at the same time to say, that the majority of the people of Bristol were opposed to further concessions to the Catholics. His own opinion had always agreed with theirs on that subject; and he saw no reason to alter it from any circumstances which had arisen since the question was last discussed.

concurred with his hon. colleague, that there was in Bristol a decided majority against the Catholic claims. The petition which was now lying for signature in that city had already twenty-five thousand names affixed to it.

said, he was commissioned to present a petition of an opposite nature from an individual of the name of John Joseph Stockdale. The petition was respectfully worded, and he thought it his duty to present it to the House. The petitioner stated, that he had been more than any other person instrumental in circulating books, tracts, and other pamphlets against the claims of the Roman Catholics to political power, and that in so doing he bad expended large sums of money in support of Protestant ascendancy. He further stated his belief, that there existed a conspiracy in the cabinet and in the parliament, having for its object the introduction of Popery and misrule into this kingdom. He advised that all traitors should be dismissed from the king's councils, and feared that if his advice were not acted on, the most lamentable consequences would ensue; and that, amongst the rest, the allegiance which the people of England at present owed to his majesty would be cancelled. The learned gentleman observed, that the petitioner made no allusion to the House of Savoy, which was supposed to be next in succession in the event of the reigning family abdicating, nor did he pray for the dissolution of parliament, but in every other respect his sentiments perfectly accorded with the doctrines which had been promulgated elsewhere. However offensive the language of the petition might be to the feelings of individuals, there was nothing to prevent its being received by the House.

said, that it was now two years since he had had occasion to call the attention of the House to the defective state of the Law respecting debtor and creditor. In the course of the last three sessions, he had selected from the papers on the table of the House, details which shewed the extent and magnitude of the evil of which he had complained. He had stated the inferences to be drawn from these details, and he had expressed a hope, that ere this, his majesty's government would have seen the propriety of something being done to put a stop to a grievance of a very serious nature. The evil was extensively felt, both immediately and in its collateral and distant effects. Whilst this country boasted advantages superior to all others—whilst it specially boasted the superior protection afforded to the person of the subject—the fact was, that with respect to debt, there was no country in which personal liberty could be so easily destroyed, and upon such trifling grounds, as in England. Whether strictly by law or not, it was undoubtedly the fact, that a practice had grown up by which an individual, on the plea of debt, could confine another, whether that debt might prove on investigation, to be correct or not. By the present practice, any individual was allowed, on oath, to charge another with debt, and to arrest him, upon an affidavit which could not be taken or admitted in a court of justice, for in such a court the plaintiff would not be allowed to make affidavit in his own cause, or to give oath whether the debt was due or not. He did not intend to state all the hardships growing out of such a practice; but he must say, that it had been his expectation, and he believed the expectation of the public, that the Commission of Law Inquiry would have taken the whole matter under its consideration. At least, he felt convinced, that it was quite impossible that the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department could be aware of the great extent and serious nature of the evils under the existing system, and not feel desirous of putting an end to them. There were now lying on the table of the House, returns on the subject for four successive years. The object of the motion he was about to submit to the House was, to bring upon the table a continuation of those returns, in the same form as those of which the House was already in possession. When the whole of the papers should be on the table, they would establish whether there had been an increase or a decrease of the evil, and would justify further measures in relation to the subject. A strange notion unaccountably prevailed in this country, that to imprison the person was the best mode of obtaining the payment of a debt, and in every respect better than having recourse to the effects and property of the individual. But the chief evil of the practice existing in England was, that the families of debtors were destroyed. Persons who were not criminal, but only unfortunate, were subject to arrest, and were exposed to the contamination and degradation which were the necessary consequences of confinement in the gaols of this country. In many respects, it was shameful, to allow the gaols to continue in their present state. He had not pressed upon the House any arrangement for the abolition of arrest for debt upon judgment, or after due inquiry by courts of law; but he had pressed on the House, and he did expect that the right hon. Secretary would also have pressed upon it, the rational and fair proposition of abolishing the power of arrest under Mesne Process. In Mesne Process the allegation might be from spite, and under a consciousness that the imputed debtor did not, honestly, owe a single shilling. The result of the returns on the table was a conviction, that the present state of things could not long continue. In the five principal prisons of the metropolis—the King's Bench, the Fleet, Whitecross-street, the Marshalsea, and the prison in Horsemonger-lane—there were committed, in 1827, not less than five thousand, nine hundred, and fifty-nine prisoners for debt; and on the 1st of January, 1828, there were one thousand, five hundred, and fifteen persons within the walls of those prisons. Those who knew the want of accommodation in the prisons might judge of this fertile source of demoralization. Four thousand, one hundred and seventy persons were in confinement upon Mesne Process. One thousand, seven hundred and ninety-nine were committed upon judgments. The liberty of that number of individuals had been sacrificed without that care and attention, which in all other cases, the constitutional liberty of Englishmen had a right to expect. In Scotland, France, Holland, America, and even in our colonies, the Canadas, nothing of the sort could take place. In no country but England did this practice exist. It was a great reflection on the right hon. gentleman, that he had not taken into consideration these evils. He saw no reason why, in a matter so simple, he should not have directed the attention of the law officers to the subject. He begged particularly to press on the right hon. gentleman, that if he would agree to increase the sum, he would immediately lessen the evil. Of the number he had mentioned, four thousand, one hundred and fifty, were for debts under 50l. If, instead of 20l, the sum was raised to 50l, individuals would be less willing to arrest. He had consulted the most respectable attorneys, and there was not one of them who had not given it as his opinion, that arrest on Mesne Process ought to be abolished. He thought it right, also, to notice the extent of imprisonment, that had taken place under the Court of Requests during the last five years. The number was considerable, but by no means so large as he had expected it to be. Still the House would bear in mind, that these unhappy persons were confined for debts averaging only sixteen or seventeen shillings. Thus, men were confined one day for every shilling they owed, while the country was, in most cases, put to the expense of supporting them while in prison, and their parishes burthened with the maintenance of their families. It appeared also by the returns, that there were not less than one hundred and sixty-four persons in England who had the power of committing to gaol upon allegation of debt. In Ireland, the evil, if any thing, was more severely felt. By the returns, it appeared, that of six hundred and sixty individuals, three hundred and fifty were confined for debts under 20l.; one hundred and twenty-nine under 50l.; and the remainder for debts above 50l. In Ireland, the expense of the gaols was very considerable, and the five prisons of Dublin were a serious charge to the government. He believed, that three out of every four arrests proceeded more out of spite or revenge than from any hope of payment of the debt. It appeared, also, that in the year 1827, there had been twenty-three thousand five hundred and fifteen writs, issued from the Secondary'soffice of London and Westminster, of which eleven thousand, three hundred and seventeen had been executed. In addition to these, one thousand, four hundred and eighty-nine had been issued by the Lord Mayor's Court in the city; the total number would thence appear to exceed twenty-five thousand and four. The expenses of these arrests, including the attorney, the sheriff's officers, the lock-up house, and incidents, could not be estimated under 59,000l.; and much of this fell on the poorest class of people. When a person was driven to the Insolvent Act, to get clear of such debts, the expense was about 15l.; with the loss of time and character, and the ruin of the family of the debtor, without any benefit to the creditor. The Society for the Relief of persons imprisoned for Small Debts, had, in the last year, discharged forty-three thousand, three hundred and ninety-nine debtors, involving the actual comforts and welfare of one hundred and forty-seven thousand, six hundred persons. The House would be surprised when he stated, the small sums at which they were relieved, that a law could exist tolerating incarceration. Including all the expenses of the Society, the average sum to relieve these forty-three thousand, three hundred and ninety-nine debtors, was only 2l. 14s. 8½1d. He had been informed, that some societies had come to the resolution of not arresting for debt, the expenses being so great. This was a sad state of the law, and he trusted, the right hon. gentleman would permit a bill to be brought in to remedy the evil. In the mean time, he would move for a "return of the number of prisoners confined for debt in the five gaols of the metropolis, in the year 1828, distinguishing those in custody on Mesne Process, from those on judgments entered up, and for costs of suits," &c.

said, he had not the slightest objection to the production of the returns. He acknowledged the subject to be important, and deserving of serious consideration; but he could not admit that there was any ground of reflection on the government. It was often very difficult to foresee all the consequences of a wide and extensive alteration of a law which had existed for ages. The Solicitor-general had last year introduced a bill, depriving a creditor of the power of apprehending a debtor for any sum less than 20l. The law was formerly confined to sums under 10l. The proper course would be, to watch the progress of that measure; and if it was ascertained that no practical inconvenience resulted from it, the hon. member would then have a much better ground for proposing the extension of its principle, than any arguments derived from theory and inference made àpriori. He was certainly inclined to think, that the best mode of coming to a satisfactory conclusion on the subject, would be by directing the attention of a commission to it. He begged to remind the hon. member, that the consequences which were predicted from legislating on these matters did not always follow. Nothing at first appeared more equitable than the practice of the Insolvent Court, where the debtor undertook to give up all his present property, and to abandon his future gains, until his debts were liquidated. The hon. member must, however, be aware, that even in the working of the Insolvent Debtors' Act, great frauds were committed, and that the sums actually recovered hardly, on an average, exceeded a farthing in the pound. This operated to the great destruction of that fair confidence and credit between man and man, which ought to exist in the transactions of life. The legislature ought to be cautious in interfering in such subjects. In saying this he was not giving any opposition whatever to the motion; and he would further say, that if no inconvenience should result from the recent alteration of the Law of Arrest, the principle might be further extended.

contended, that a law enacting and enforcing, in all cases, a cessio bonorum would be much more beneficial for debtor and creditor than the present system of imprisonment, which, in most cases, ruined the debtor, and gave the creditor' no advantage.

was of opinion, that the whole of the law relating to imprisonment for debt, was deserving of serious consideration. With respect to the Insolvent Debtors' Court, it was high time to revise the whole system, when it appeared that the proceedings in those Courts did not realize one farthing in the pound for the creditor.

expressed a hope, that such a revision might take place, and that means might be devised for allowing debtors to surrender their property without the ruin and disgrace of being obliged to remain in a prison for a certain time as at present; but if arrest on Mesne Process were abolished, he hoped some summary process would be devised for recovering small sums, otherwise the remedy would be a protection to the debtor, at the expense of the honest creditor.

The motion was then agreed to.