moved a New Writ for the University of Oxford, in the room of the right hon. Robert Peel, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.

said, he most highly approved of the step taken by the right hon. Secretary, in thus vacating his seat. Having departed from the principles on which he was elected as a fit person to represent the University of Oxford, the right hon. gentleman very properly gave his constituents an opportunity either of confirming their former choice, or of retracting their approbation, and rejecting him. What the conduct of that body would be, it was impossible for him to say; but this he would say, that the right hon. gentleman, in thus giving his constituents an opportunity of exercising their judgment, had set a laudable example to other members of the House, whose minds had been changed by the new lights which had broken in upon them with respect to the Catholic question, and that example, he hoped, they would follow. He was well aware that any thing which he could say on the subject would make but little impression; but he was of opinion, that when the day came, and in all human probability it was not so far distant as hon. members might suppose, when they would be called on to account for the manner in which they had discharged their trust, that day would be found to be a day of retribution for political apostacy, and those who had retrograded from their principles would be visited with the disapprobation, if not with the honest anger, of those by whom they had been sent to parliament. He hoped that differences of political opinion would not sever the ties of private and social feeling; but he could not help feeling that those who deserted their principles must be, in some degree, lessened in their political estimation; and if they possessed the feelings which they ought to have, they must be lessened in their own. He believed that this change arose from a competition between place and consistency; but for his own part, he would as soon put place in competition with consistency, as he would put glass in competition with marble. He feared, however, that those who had ulterior considerations in view, would be very far from following the example of the right hon. gentleman.

said, it was something extraordinary, on a motion for a new writ, to offer any observations; at the same time, he had no doubt that the gallant general was justified in taking that opportunity of making such remarks as suggested themselves to him; and he also begged leave, as well as the gallant general, to say a few words. He, and he believed every one else, could not but approve of the conduct of the right hon. gentleman, in giving his constituents an opportunity of reconsidering his conduct with respect to this great question. Since he had the honour of a seat in that House, he had thought it indispensable, for the welfare of the country, that the tie between the representative and his constituents should be as close as possible; and therefore he had constantly advocated the great principle of parliamentary reform. Now, he trusted that the gallant general would endeavour to carry into effect the principle which he had that evening laid down, when any gentleman brought forward the question of parliamentary reform, and that he would give that question his support. The gallant officer had argued on the principle, that the closest tie should subsist between the representative and his constituents; and therefore those who advocated parliamentary reform ought not only to claim his vote, but the votes of others who now, for the first time, seemed to conceive that that House did not fully represent the people in parliament. They said, in fact, not only that that House did not represent the people, but that it never could; and the members who composed it were described as—degenerate senators," and were told that a penal law ought to be put in force to dissolve the House. If the gallant general meant to be consistent, if he wished really to support the principle on which the right hon. gentleman had vacated his seat, he was bound to assist in carrying into effect any sound, moderate, rational plan of reform. Rather strong words had been used by the gallant officer, in speaking of those whose opinions were altered on the Catholic question. When the gallant general spoke of political apostacy, he thought the right hon. gentleman and others who, in this great crisis of danger, had seen the necessity of altering their course, hardly deserved to be so attacked. In his opinion, the time would come when the events which would be produced by the success of this great measure would show the gallant officer, that his fears for the welfare of his country were unfounded; and he believed that the more the people of this country became acquainted with the effects of the proposed alteration in the law, the more they would be satisfied with the conduct of those who came forward, at the risk of private and personal character, at the sacrifice of private friendship, in spite of opposition and of entreaty, manfully to do their duty towards their king and country. The right hon. gentleman who had given rise to this conversation had, a few nights since, in justifying the course which he had taken, quoted what was said by an ancient poet, in describing the conduct of an able general—"Non ponebat enim rumores ante salutem;" and, as the right hon. gentleman was not present, he would add the succeeding line—"Ergo postque, magisque viri sic gloria crescet." Such, he believed, would be the case. He was quite certain that the fears entertained by some good lovers of their country would prove unfounded; and that the time would come when the country would laud and admire the conduct of those men who had manfully placed themselves in the gap, and performed their duty towards their constituents and their country.

said, that although the attention of the House was now engaged by the consideration of a topic of engrossing interest, he felt it to be his imperious duty to address a few observations on the financial situation and prospects of the country. His attention to this subject was particularly excited upon the present occasion; as from the announcement that had been already made by ministers, there was no prospect of the Finance Committee being renewed; at least, not of its being revived in sufficient time to have any material and beneficial effect upon the Estimates of the present year. He would recal the attention of the House to the circumstances under which the Finance Committee had been proposed originally by Mr. Canning, who held out a promise of the fullest and fairest opportunity of investigation being made into all the branches of the public expenditure, with a view of ascertaining what revenue was really available to the several departments of the expenditure of the country. In the subsequent session of parliament, the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department had come down to the House with a message from the Crown, recommending the fullest and most satisfactory inquiry into all the branches of the revenue and expenditure of the country. The hon. member proceeded to read a passage from the speech of the right hon. gentleman, to shew that it was the desire of ministers that the most ample and complete investigation should take place into the finances of the country; and certainly the appointment of the members of the committee was calculated to carry the declared objects of the government into effect. Now, with respect to Finance Committees, there had been five; but none of the preceding ones had terminated in so unsatisfactory a manner, and with less advantageous results to the country, than the committee appointed last year. The fate of the other committees was different from that of the last year. They were permitted to proceed finally to their report, But with respect to the com mittee appointed last year, they were stopped almost in the beginning of their proceedings. True, they had sat frequently during the last session; true, they had collected a deal of evidence upon several branches of the revenue; but they had not proceeded to that final completion of their labours which would render their inquiries beneficial to the country. If the government intended to give effect to those inquiries, why was the committee not reappointed? If ministers saw the necessity of this investigation being prosecuted with effect, why not continue it? As to the labours of the committee, he could safely say, that the utmost anxiety had been manifested by them in the prosecution of the work intrusted to their charge. There was a constant attendance of from eighteen to twenty members, and although there was great delay, in the early stages, in procuring the necessary information from the various public establishments, towards the close of the session their proceedings were more speedy. As far as they had gone, they had brought together a variety of valuable reports, none of which he believed, had given dissatisfaction. He would particularly advert to the fourth report, on which his right hon. friend, the Master of the Mint (Mr. Herries), had bestowed great attention. The first report of the committee was certainly drawn up hastily. The subject of the sale of annuities had excited considerable anxiety throughout the country, and to meet that anxiety, an early report was presented to the House. On the Ordnance, the committee had had the great advantage of the knowledge and assiduity of the present Secretary at War, who then held a high situation at the Board of Ordnance, and who applied himself, as did the noble duke who was then at the head of that department of the public service, to retrenchment. With these favourable circumstances the committee had entered very closely into the examination of that branch of the subject referred to them; and had done a great deal. Still, however, the second part of the Ordnance question had been postponed; and the committee had made no report on that important consideration—the custody of the public money, with a view of dealing with it in such a manner as should afford the best security against fraud and abuse. In the report which they made, the committee had distinctly shown that there was matter enough, connected with the subject which he had last mentioned, to occupy them for another year. Having laboured as the committee had laboured, and having still before them so much to investigate, it appeared most extraordinary that they should not be renewed. Nothing had happened since last year to alter the expediency of such a committee. If it was desirable that such a committee should sit in 1828, and if that committee had collected matter on which to ground subsequent inquiry, why should it be terminated, until it had brought its labours to that issue from which the country might have derived benefit? Now, not even the evidence collected by the committee could be advantageously laid before the House; for it would be merely a dry statement of facts, unaccompanied by any commentary to elucidate them. It was evident from what they had accomplished, that the committee had been guided in their proceedings by a very proper view of the subject of the national revenue and expenditure. Still, however, a minute inquiry into the subject was indispensable. In their fourth report, the committee had dealt with that great subject of delusion, the Sinking-fund, and had declared their opinion that it should be put an end to. Although the delusion had been exposed from the year 1822, yet it had been kept up, and the country had been induced to believe that it really possessed a Sinking-fund. It was now, however, generally acknowledged, that from its very commencement the Sinking-fund had been a gross delusion. Another subject of importance to which the committee had turned their attention was the unfunded debt; but on this, as on other points, they had far from completed their labours. The Army had been totally omitted in their report; because, although the committee had obtained a great deal of evidence on the subject, they had not pursued the examination of it sufficiently to enable them to arrive at any definite conclusion. The investigation of the Navy also had not been followed up; because the committee did not possess sufficient matter for that purpose. But enough had come out, from the evidence before them, to show that a very large sum might be saved in that department of the public service. It had been shown, that we had abundance of ships built, and that no additional building was at present necessary. It had also been shown, that all the stores were in the best condition, and that we might, without the slightest fear of inefficiency, leave our Navy for some time in its present state. These strong facts alone ought to induce government and the House to form the committee again, in order that they might follow up their investigations on so material a point to the end. The committee had not been able last year to make any report with respect to the amount at which the establishments of the country ought to stand, because they were not in possession of the information which government had on the subject of our relations with foreign countries. The committee did not know at that time whether we were at peace or not. But this year it had been distinctly asserted by members of his majesty's government, that for twenty years our foreign relations had never been in so satisfactory a state. Of course, therefore, if the committee was renewed, they would found their estimates with reference to that fact. If estimates were to be formed, with reference to a permanent peace establishment, what ought to be their amount? Undoubtedly, that of the lowest within the last twenty years. That lowest amount was in 1822; yet the House would hardly credit the difference between the numerical force of our establishments in 1822 and their numerical force at present. If, however, there never was a period at which our external relations promised such profound tranquillity, surely our establishments ought to be reduced to what they were in 1822. In 1822, the numerical strength of our Army was seventy-one thousand seven hundred and seventy-nine men; in 1828, it was ninety thousand five hundred and ninetee; being an increase of eighteen thousand seven hundred and forty men. In 1822, the numerical strength of our Navy was twenty thousand one hundred and twenty men; in 1828 it was thirty thousand; being an increase of almost one-third. It was in evidence before the committee, that in the event of our not being engaged in war, three thousand or four thousand men might be reduced, by withdrawing our force from the Mediterranean alone. In the Ordnance, also, there was a considerable difference between the numerical strength of 1822 and the numerical strength of 1828. On the whole, the difference in the numerical strength of all descriptions of force, in 1822 and 1828, amounted to no less than twenty-nine thousand men. All hope of effectually diminishing the taxation of the country would be lost, if the committee were not renewed. Individual propositions to that effect would have little weight, compared with the recommendations of a committee. He was quite at a loss to conceive why this most useful mode of inquiring into the financial state of the country should be suddenly put an end to. On those grounds it was that he had felt it his duty, before the Speaker left the Chair, to protest against the proceeding. He was sure government would never make the retrenchments which it was practicable to make, unless those retrenchments were pointed out by the report of a committee. Let the House consider how many subjects the committee had postponed. For instance, there was the Navy pay-office, in which forty or fifty clerks were at present employed, when nine or ten would do the whole business of the office; an office, indeed, which might advantageously be abolished, or amalgamated with some other. To the subjects which he had already mentioned as those which the committee had laid aside, must be added the staff, the volunteer establishment, plurality of offices; general considerations as to the mode of issuing the public money, and to the channels through which it passed before it reached the public creditor; the dock-yards, the coast and water-guard, and other subjects to which the committee would no doubt have directed their inquiries, had they been aware of their approaching dissolution. With all these circumstances before him, he could not but think the public would be exceedingly benefited by the revival of that committee, and that no substantial reduction of taxation could be otherwise expected.

expressed his surprise at the silence of the right hon. gentleman opposite; and, although he admitted that his majesty's ministers could not be better employed at the present moment than on the important subject which engaged their attention, he was nevertheless of opinion, that the Finance Committee ought to be revived, with the view of endeavouring to put the finances of the country into the best state of which they were susceptible. Indeed, he had always understood that it was to be revived; and was perfectly satisfied that many things had not been done by the committee which would otherwise have been done, had it not hen under stood generally, that the committee would be revived. In particular, he was certain, that if they had had any idea that their labours were to be so soon terminated, they would, at least, have reported on those two great branches of the public expenditure, the Army and Navy. To show the diligence which the committee had used to collect materials for that purpose, the hon. baronet read lists of the individuals examined by them, comprehending many of the most distinguished officers in both services. Such progress had been made by the committee in their examinations, that a little additional time would have enabled them to make a full report on the Army and Navy. There were various other matters on which they had also made considerable progress. Whether they would have eventually effected any considerable reduction was more than he could say; but he was sure that they would have endeavoured to do so, and that they felt that, in the civil departments of the services especially, much reduction might be advantageously effected. It had been said, that the committee had not done any good, and that there was no prospect of their doing any. In support of this opinion, the fact that when the committee proposed any reduction it was opposed, had been alleged. But he maintained, that the very inquiries of such a committee, composed of the most competent persons in the House, must have a beneficial effect on the various public departments. It was well known that there was a constant tendency in the various public departments, to increase their expenditure. The inquiries of a Committee of Finance would aid in checking that tendency. The late committee had strengthened the hands of the Treasury, and had given to that department a more effectual control over the others. By the interference of the committee, the Treasury had, indeed, recovered its legitimate authority. He very well knew that, if the noble duke now at the head of the government thought proper to introduce economy into the Army and Navy, it was perfectly competent for him to do so, without the intervention of any Committee of Finance. But there were other branches of the public service into which, with all the noble duke's authority, and with all the spirit with which he carried through whatever he undertook, he could not so safely proceed, without the knowledge derived from the previous investigations of a com mittee. There was a subject, for instance, to which his hon. friend had alluded—namely our colonial system—which was so complicated in its nature, arising not only from the number of our colonies, but from the variety of their interests, and their hostility to any thing like reform, that nothing short of a full and extensive examination, by a committee of that House, of all the circumstances attending the system, would be sufficient to form the basis of a measure of amelioration. If the House would take the trouble of tracing all the expenses to which the country was subjected by the colonial system as it now stood—expenses resulting from the army, the navy, the ordnance, the civil officers, &c.—they would feel that such was the case; although it was certain that there was not a single colony in which a large sum might not be saved. By a minute inquiry, the country might be relieved from a large part of the charge now incurred in the colonies. In his opinion, therefore, the committee ought to be revived. The committee had accumulated voluminous returns, with respect to the population and establishments of each colony such returns as had never before been collected. The ground-work had been laid for a system, from which the colonial governments might derive great advantages; a system which would materially reduce our expenditure as connected with the colonies, and place the colonies themselves in a more flourishing condition. This was a subject well worthy of the attention of parliament.—There was another subject, in the investigation of which the committee had made some progress; and it was a subject which required serious attention. He meant smuggling. Among other facts it appeared, that no less than 700,000l. a year was paid out of the Treasury for the suppression of smuggling. When this enormous expense, and all the evils that resulted from smuggling, were considered, the expediency of endeavouring to suppress it, by lowering some of the duties, seemed to him to be evident; and, in his opinion, that could be accomplished without any great loss to the revenue. Why not reduce the duties on tobacco and brandy? From the former three millions, from the latter a million and a half were derived. If a million were taken off, and raised by other means, a most injurious practice would be put down, and an enormous expenditure got rid of. With respect to the audit of accounts, the committee were not in any great difficulty, as they had the benefit of the best and highest precedents. The better mode would be, to follow the course of the government of France, and introduce a different system of public accounts. He would not undertake to say that the French system was the best that could be devised; indeed, he had heard that the Dutch system was better; but he would assert that, in comparison with our system that of France was most perfect.—The committee had collected a statement of Expenditure and Revenue up to the present year, and he wished to see it followed up by a report, shewing the revenue, and from what sources it was collected. He wished a committee of the House would inquire into the nature of the taxes composing the revenue which, in the gross amounted to fifty-eight millions. Having expected that this would be made the subject of examination by a committee, he had bestowed some time in making himself acquainted with the various complicated details connected with the question; and he had no hesitation in saying, that the industry of the country had been materially injured by the system of taxation now in operation. It would be a question worthy of that House to examine and decide by what means the revenue actually wanted could be obtained from the people with the least possible injury to the progress of industry, and the accumulation of capital, and with the least possible vexation to those who had to furnish it. It would, on examination, be found, that on some of the materials of manufactures, either in their raw state, or in the early stages of preparation, no less than six millions were annually lost to the consumer. In some instances the tax on the raw article was greater than the cost of manufacture. He would not enter into details, but he must repeat, that such a system was most injurious to the progress of national wealth. It was only by the progress of accumulating capital and wealth that this country had been able to surmount her difficulties. If obstructions were opposed to those sources of improvement, we must remain stationary; whilst, if the obstructions to the accumulation of wealth were removed, we should be enabled to struggle against any difficulties. He did not propose that any sudden reduction should be made in the branch of taxation to which he had alluded. He was only desirous, that if, upon inquiry, it should appear to be attended with the prejudicial consequences which he had attributed to it, it should be made the subject of gradual reduction. Those members of the House who had belonged to the Committee of Finance must be aware, that, independently of the great items of expense, the Army and the Navy, considerable sums might be saved under other heads. The revision of the colonial system would, he thought, be attended with a large reduction of taxation in this country. There could be no kind of difficulty in discovering new taxes which would produce a sufficient revenue without pressing on industry. These, he thought, were all sound reasons for the re-appointment of the Committee of Finance. The subjects could be much better investigated by such a committee than by ministers, whose attention was taken up in their several departments. He, however, begged it to be clearly understood, that he had no objection to the postponement of the committee, until the government had got rid of the present important measure in which it was engaged; but he hoped that ministers would not come to a final decision as to the refusal of a committee altogether, until they had fully considered the circumstances which he and other gentlemen were able to lay before them.

said, that though he concurred in much that had fallen from the hon. baronet, he did not consider it necessary, on the present occasion, to enter into any discussion, with respect to the various topics which he had referred to. To enter into any detail with respect to those topics at a time when the House were expecting other important business to be brought under their consideration, would be neither fair nor convenient. It appeared from the speech of the hon. member for Abingdon, that what he had stated on a former evening had been misunderstood. He was therefore anxious to repeat what he had said, when he was asked whether it was the intention of government to move for the revival of the Finance Committee. The hon. member for Abingdon supposed that he had given to that proposition a distinct denial. He had done no such thing. He had stated that, there was no indisposition on the part of the government to enter upon those inquiries which had last session been confided to the Finance Committee, but that at the present moment the attention of government was so much occupied, that they could not do otherwise than postpone the consideration of the question to a later period of the session. He had also stated, that there existed amongst those who had been members of the Finance Committee, a difference of opinion as to the course which it would be proper to pursue. Some were of opinion that the committee should be reappointed; others thought that the inquiries could be better conducted on the responsibility of government, and without the intervention of a committee; and one member suggested, that all the information Which had been collected by the committee Should be laid before the House, and become matter of general discussion. He did not now mean to deliver an opinion with respect to any of those courses. He thought it better to wait until the existing pressure of business was removed from government, and then to consider what course would be most conducive to the public interest, and most consonant with the wishes of the House.

said, he could not but recollect the course adopted last session, in appointing a committee to consider in what way might be reduced the heavy pressure of the different establishments of the country upon the various branches of industry and commerce. The committee had been appointed, not to inquire into the revenue, but into the reduction of taxation. The whole of last session was lost without any effort to reduce the taxes. The cry was, that the subject was before the committee, and nothing could be done until the committee had made its report. The committee were overwhelmed with papers, and had been unable to come to any decision on more than one or two subjects. As soon as all the materials were collected, ministers broke up the committee, fifteen days before the House was prorogued. He had never risen with less disposition to oppose government than on the present occasion. Seeing the important benefit ministers were about to confer on the country by the measure with which they were occupied, he felt bound to afford them all the assistance in his power. He rose, therefore, not with any intention of throwing difficulties in their way, but to point out how they might adopt a course different from what they were now pur suing. The House, in the first place ought to know how far the intentions o government corresponded with the declaration of his Majesty's Speech. That speech had recommended economy to be enforced in every department of the state If the recommendation was to be follower up, ministers were called upon to stab their intentions, before the House voted away a single pound, much less before they voted away six millions, which they were now called upon to vote, besides the 2,000,000l. which would be consequen upon the vote of that evening. Minister ought to show in what departments they had practised economy, and the House could then judge how far they had adhered to the recommendation of his Majesty's Speech. So far as he could judge from the estimates on the table, the reductions which had been effected were a mere trifle, and not such as to authorise a minister it taking credit for economy. Of what use was an increasing revenue to this country. If, whilst the revenue went on increasing, ministers never reduced a single farthing. Reductions were only made when the revenue fell short. The moment it increased not a word of economy was heard. There was now an increase of revenue of 2,000,000l.; but what did this signify, if the House had to vote 89,000 men for the Army, 8,000 for the Ordnance, and 30,000 for the Navy? Would any man say that these were requisite for a peace establishment? The measures now in progress would allow ministers to withdraw 15,000 or 20,000 men from Ireland. Previous to 1793, there were never more than 8,000 or 9,000 men kept in Ireland. If the existing distress and discontent were removed, he knew of no circumstances that would require us to maintain more than 12,000 men in that country, instead of 30,000. The estimates for 1821 and the three following years, were less than those for the present year. What confidence, then, could be placed in the economical professions of ministers? He was satisfied that the whole of the taxes upon many of the articles of the first necessity might be removed. From three to four millions of taxes might be reduced this year, and the country would be the better for it in the next. The House ought to compel ministers to reduce the establishments by 20,000 men. He was convinced that capital was increasing, and would increase notwithstanding taxation was so un equally applied. Although he had been opposed to the constitution of the Committee of Finance, now that that committee had collected such a mass of useful matter, and was prepared to lay it before the House, it was too much for ministers to say that the country should lose the benefit of its labours. The head of the army was unable to carry the reductions in his department so far, as if he had been strengthened by the report of the committee.

asked, whether he was to understand the right hon. gentleman to say that the revival of the Finance Committee was postponed, or merely the consideration of the propriety of the revival?

said, he had stated, that at present the appointment of the Finance Committee would be inconvenient, both to the House and the government. He had also stated, that various suggestions had been made, as to the manner in which economical arrangements might be effected, but he thought it better to postpone to a later period of the session the adoption of one of those suggestions.

said, he was anxious that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, in order to afford the right hon. gentleman (sir H. Hardinge) an opportunity of explaining the intentions of government. It must be obvious, that the estimates could not sufficiently explain the intentions of government, because some prospective measures of economy might have been determined on, which the House could only be made acquainted with from the speech of the right hon. gentleman. With respect to the Finance Committee, it had been originally appointed under the pressure of severe distress. Fortunately, the circumstances of the country were now altered, and we had a real surplus revenue amounting to about 3,500,000l. It was not to be understood, that a Finance Committee was to be reappointed as a matter of course; though it was well known that many Finance Committees sat during several sessions. If government were seriously employed on the work of reduction, no doubt they had a large mass of materials to go upon: and if they did betake themselves in earnest to the work, he could not object to the committee not being reappointed; as, it that case, many members would be relieved from a very tedious and irksome duty. At the present time, knowing how much government was occupied with a most momentous question, and how little attention it could give to the business of a committee—for if the committee were to be reappointed, government must of course go into it—he was disposed to make every allowance for the delay; but, when he said this, he should add, that he still expected that some reduction should be in preparation. If he saw a disposition to that effect manifested in the arrangements for the different services, he would be satisfied; though he nevertheless concurred with those who thought it a serious thing that a committee, after having collected such a mass of materials, should not be reappointed. He would not now enter into the detail into which the hon. member for Aberdeen had gone—because he did not believe the present moment was the proper one for their discussion. He could not concur with him in his suggestion as to the application of what he expected of a surplus revenue. We were subject to those fluctuations, by which in one year there was a considerable improvement, and in another a great deficiency; and under such circumstances it would not be politic to make such an application of a surplus for one year, particularly with such a revenue as we had, and above all with such a mass of debt. When the hon. member talked of reducing so large a portion of our force as twenty thousand men, he could not concur with him. It was very easy to make such sweeping propositions; but those by whom they were made were bound to point out the particular colony or place in which they might be effected, without injury to the public service. That in time of internal tranquillity and external peace some reduction of our force might be made, he was not prepared to deny; but except in Ireland, where the effect of the intended measures would no doubt be productive of much good, he was not prepared to propose any reduction of our force, except perhaps a regiment or two of cavalry. Any reduction beyond that would not, he considered, be at the present period advisable. As to what had been said of the number of clerks employed in some of the public departments, and the assertion that had been made, that the work of thirty-five clerks could he done by eight, he would only say, that if such were the fact, the mode of doing business in those offices deserved consideration. He had no doubt that the great number of clerks in some of the departments tended to encumber the business, make it less intelligible, and to facilitate frauds. If the heads of departments were to look seriously into this point—not with the view of such extravagant reforms, as he had heard recommended, but with the intention of seeing what could be clone to simplify the mode of keeping the accounts—it would have the effect of making them more acquainted with the details of business in those departments, and less dependent for information on their subordinate clerks, than they were at present. He had little doubt that such defalcations as had been seen in the office of Pay-master of the Navy, and also at Greenwich Hospital, would be found to have arisen from the present practice of encumbering offices with useless checks and forms, which removed the more direct and immediate control of the head of the office, or at least rendered it less effectual than it would otherwise be found.

observed, that if government, with the materials for working which they possessed in the information obtained by the Finance Committee, intended to enter upon the business of reduction themselves, they could do it more effectually than any Finance Committee. When he went into the committee last year, he did so with a greater certainty of obtaining information, than of having it made available, for the purposes of effectual reduction. All the information they got had come from the government offices. They had got all the information they asked, and more than was necessary for the object they had in view. If government should not reappoint the committee, they would be expected by the House and the country to make the greatest possible reductions; and they had the materials in their hands. If the committee should be reappointed, they ought not to examine the estimates of last years. These should be left to the responsibility of the ministers of the Crown. The House ought to be informed whether they might expect this or not; and, if it was not intended to reappoint the committee, they should be told so at once. He would admit the vast importance of the question with which they were then engaged, and that, no doubt, was a fair reason for the delay in the appointment of the committee; but it would not be an excuse for not having an immediate answer, yes or no, to the question ofreappointment.

The House having resolved itself into the committee,

rose to move the Army Estimates. He began by saving that in presenting the estimates to the committee, he would confine himself principally to noticing the difference in the items between the past and the present year, and to giving such explanations of each item of charge as would make them intelligible to hon. members. He would say a word as to the whole force to be kept for the year. That amounted to eighty-nine thousand, seven hundred and twenty-three men, exclusive of the forces on service in India. If that force had been calculated, according to the view taken of it by the hon. member for Aberdeen, with reference to the state of Great Britain, or in anticipation of the settlement of the question with respect to Ireland, hon. members would no doubt expect that considerable diminution might now be made, particularly as the tranquillity at home was confirmed by assurances from the throne, that no interruption was likely to take place in the state of our foreign relations. But hon. members would recollect, that the force kept up, for some years past, had not so much a reference to our state at home, as to the relief of garrisons abroad; and that it was in the amount of those garrisons that a reduction could be expected, if any at all could be made. On this part he would state, that there was a diminution this year of our force by one thousand two hundred men, by the reduction of staff-corps, by four companies from the African Corps, and this was exclusive of the reduction of five thousand men, by taking fifty from each of the regiments. The reduction of expense of this last would be 100,000l. this year. It was 80,000l. in the last, making a difference of 20,000l. The advantage of this gradual mode of diminishing the amount of force, by small reductions from each regiment, was this,—that it saved, in a great degree, the expense which would be attendant in the disbanding of a large number at once; for that must necessarily include a number of young lives, which would thus come upon the pension list. As to the Staff-corps, it was found that we could do without those twelve companies. They were reduced in this way:—seven companies were allowed to volunteer into the corps of Sappers and Miners, and five companies were taken into the Ordnance. This gradual reduction would also create a great saving in the way of pension. The next item of reduction was that of four companies of four hundred men from the African Corps. This created a saving of 9,000l. There was also a diminution of about 900l. in the staff of the waggon-train by the reduction of a major, and a paymaster, and some minor reductions. In the corps in the East Indies there was a reduction of five thousand eight hundred, making a diminution of expense of 128,000l.; but then it should be considered, that this sum would not be wholly saved to the public, because a provision must be made for many of those who were returning home. The whole diminution of force of 1829, as compared with 1827, would be twelve thousand men, and as compared with last year, more than eight thousand. There would be a diminution of expense amounting to 73,000l. On the miscellaneous charges and contingencies,—such as oil and emery money, marching money, target allowances, &c., there would be a saving on the reductions of 6,888l. The next charge in the estimates was the Staff in Great Britain and abroad. This amounted to 117,136l., on which a diminution of expense had been made of 19,763l. Much of this reduction originated with the Commander-in-chief himself, by a reduction of a large portion of the medical staff; which measure had been much assisted by the co-operation of the Director-general of the Medical Department. In the charge for Public Departments, which now amounted to 105,928l., there was a reduction of 4,029l. this year. And here it was but doing justice to the noble lord (Palmerston) who had preceded him in office, to state, that the greater part of this sum was the result of arrangements made by him before he quitted office; and he might add, with reference to what had fallen from the hon. member for Callington (Mr. Baring) on the subject of the reduction of clerks, that there had been, in the last year of the war, one hundred and seventy clerks in the office of the Secretary of War, and of that number ninety-one had been reduced.—Yet with that reduced number there existed the greatest despatch in the arrangement of the accounts; so that. there was no arrear. This could not have been ef fected without the most active exertions on the part of his noble friend; and, in any thing which he could now do in the way of reduction or regulation, he should be only gleaning the field which his noble friend had reaped.—In the charge for medicines, amounting to 16,560l., there would be a diminution of 1,200l. In the expense of the volunteer corps there would be a diminution of 5,217l. In the charge for the military college there would be a diminution of nearly 3,000l.; and next year it would amount to about 4,000l. It was this year 10,029l; and there was a prospect of its being brought to 8,000l. in the course of a short time. The diminution had been made by the reduction of one major, one captain, one assistant-surgeon, five professors, and some minor reductions; but the whole of the diminution would not appear in the present estimates, for some of the salaries were to be paid up to March. There was also the retirement of a Lieutenant-governor, who had held the appointment twenty-seven years, and was always active in the discharge of his duties. He was succeeded by another officer, who only received his military pay, with the addition of a guinea per day, for the extra duty of his new station. In the charge of Army Pay of General Officers, which this year amounted to 136,000l., there had been a reduction of 10,000l. In that of full pay for retired officers, now amounting to 109,000l., there was a reduction of 3,000l. Thus, on nearly every item, there was some reduction. A considerable one was effected by reductions of the medical staff, and a great part by the extinction of junior members of the half-pay. The House would recollect, that in 1825 and 1826, eight hundred officers had been allowed to sell on half-pay, and it was objected at the time, that that measure would add to the encumbrance of the pension fund, by throwing so many junior lives upon it; but if it would add somewhat to the weight in that respect, it should be recollected that there were, in the case of the younger lives, fewer wives or widows likely to become a burden to the country. It should also be considered, that those who sold out were obliged to sell at the lowest price, while those who purchased were compelled to pay the highest. By this means a sum of 80,000l. had been saved to government. Instead of vesting that sum in the general fund, he had recommended that it should be ap plied to the extinction of seventy lieutenantcies and seventy ensigncies; thus purchasing, as it were, for that sum, annuities to the amount of 9,000l. a year. The advantage of this mode of applying the money above that of investing the money must be obvious. Besides the benefit thus derived from this mode of applying the money, of cancelling one hundred and forty commissions, they got rid of the obloquy of having so many persons in the army who did not do duty.—The next item of charge was the pensions, and this was one of the most important of all. The total amount of pensions this year was 1,394,903l., from which sum large deductions were to be made,—for casualties in the present year, poundage on out-pensioners, and balance in hands, thus leaving to be provided for this year 1,278,403l. In the page of the estimates in which this charge was made, he had inserted a memorandum explaining that four thousand one hundred and three men had been carried from the pension-list to the militia account, to which they more properly belonged; but the diminution thus occasioned would be a real, not a mysterious one. It would be seen, from last year's list, that the number of pensioners had increased, and that the casualties were not so numerous. He thought, on looking at the whole system, that it required revision. He did not mean that, in any revision, any thing should be done to break faith with the soldier, or to destroy the engagements made in the year 1806: but, on the other hand, though he would not break faith with them, he thought we ought to do that which the commissioners had no discretion to do; namely, to apportion the reward according to the merit of the individual. In looking over the arrangements made on the subject of pensions in 1806, he thought they were founded wholly on erroneous principles. The Finance Committee of 1817, in adverting to this subject, stated their opinion, that the charge of pensions had then reached their greatest height. At that time there were sixty-four thousand pensioners on the list: at present there were eighty-two thousand; making a difference in the charge of 384,000l. a year. The plan which he should propose would give to the soldier a reward and a retiring pension, in proportion to his period of service. At the present time, the price of a soldier's discharge was 30l. for cavalry, and 20l. for infantry. What he intended to propose was this,—that in case of a service of seven years, the price paid for a discharge should be the same as at present, and that for a service extending a few years beyond that period, the price should be within 4l. or 5l. the same. At the end of fifteen years the soldier should be entitled to a free discharge; at the end of sixteen years he should be entitled to a free discharge not bearing a pension, and to a gratuity amounting to half a year's pay: at the end of seventeen years he should be entitled to a free discharge and to a gratuity amounting to a year's pay; at the end of eighteen years he should be entitled to a free discharge, and a gratuity of two years' pay. By this plan he would be enabled, at the end of a given time, to obtain his discharge, with a gratuity, whenever he thought proper to demand it; and if he were stationed in a country where land was to be settled, he should be entitled moreover to a grant of land, and to all the advantages reserved for military settlers. Now it was clear that, if four thousand men could be induced to get their discharge by this plan, it would be greatly for the advantage of the service; for we should substitute for men who had been twelve or fifteen years in the army, and who were thirty-five years of age and upwards, four thousand recruits in the prime of life, who had no claims whatever on the pension list. He contended that, by anticipating the discharge of the soldier in this manner, we should gain two advantages—we should give to the men what they would consider an indulgence, and we should relieve the pension list of pensions which, in the course of ten years, would amount to 300,000l. annually. He proposed that, in all these cases, the option should be given to the soldier, liable, however, to the regulation of the commander of the corps in which he served: and he further proposed, for the protection of the soldier from any momentary disgust or caprice, which might induce him to wish for his discharge, that no soldier should receive his discharge without giving a week's previous notice. By this plan he anticipated that a large diminution would soon be effected in the amount of the pension list, that the recruiting for the army would be greatly facilitated, and that desertions would he checked: and he further anticipated, that, independently of the financial relief which it would afford, it was calculated to produce a great improve ment in the character of the army.—He did not think it necessary to enter further into the details of this arrangement at present: only he must say, that, connected with this system of free discharges, a system of conditional pensions must be adopted, and that for slight injuries small gratuities must be paid. By the arrangement which was made in 1806, it was provided, that a soldier, for the loss of a finger or a toe, should be pensioned for life; and when the pension was once granted, the commissioners had no further control over it. Now it appeared to him, that by giving a soldier who had received such an injury his discharge at once, or the option of serving in a veteran battalion, great relief would be obtained to the service.—The next item in the estimates was the charge for the Military Asylum, which this year amounted to 24,155l. 13s. 8d.—There was a diminution of 3,700l. in this item, as compared with the estimate of last year; and the proposition which he should have to submit to their consideration was to limit the number of children to one thousand instead of one thousand three hundred, the number supported there at present. The charge for widows' pensions this year was 143,411l., and in this item there was an increase of 328l. over the charge of last year. The charge of allowances on the compassionate list, and of pensions to wounded officers, amounted to 189,087l. In this item there had been a diminution of 6,400l. for the allowances to the children of deceased officers. He might here mention, that the indulgence to them from his majesty's royal bounty was limited to 40,000l. and that he anticipated in another year a further diminution of 4,000l. on this head of expenditure. In the superannuation allowances there was this year an increase of 863l., but the committee must be aware, that it was quite impossible for the government to make any reductions in the public offices without increasing, for a time at least, the amount of superannuated allowances.—He had now gone through the whole of the estimates of the army services for the year, and had shown that the decrease was general on every estimate except two.—The right hon. gentleman then made a recapitulation of his statements, and concluded by moving, "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding eighty-nine thousand seven hundred and twenty-three men. (exclusive of the men belonging to the regiments employed in the territorial possessions of the East India Company), commissioned and non-commissioned officers included, be maintained for the service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 25th Dec. 1828 to 25th Dec. 1829."

said, that, after the long discussion which had taken place before the Speaker left the chair, he did not intend to trespass at any length on the attention of the House. After what had passed, he thought it would be impossible for the government to withstand the re-appointment of the Finance Committee. A clearer and more able statement than that now made, he had never heard from the Secretary at War. Many of the alterations suggested by the right hon. gentleman were satisfactory; but the estimates were any thing but satisfactory. From the peculiar situation in which the ministry were placed, he could not take the course he would otherwise have pursued. The year before last, the estimates were passed over, because it was intended to appoint a Finance Committee; last year they were passed over because the Finance Committee was appointed; and now they were to be passed over, because a great measure was in progress for the tranquillization of Ireland. There was one statement of the right hon. Secretary which gave him great alarm. It was stated, that there could be no great reduction of the land forces, for that the numerical force must be kept up, in order to supply the colonial garrisons. Now, this was a melancholy state of affairs; for it was preposterous to keep up so large a force for such a purpose. He had repeatedly stated a mode that would get rid of that necessity; and that was, by putting corps raised in the colonies into the garrisons there. He did not mean colonial corps exclusively, but such a number of them as would materially reduce the regular troops now required for this service. Reliefs of this kind, in justice to the soldiery, and for the advantage of the country, ought to be done away with. He hoped that thirty-seven thousand men, now stated as the troops required for Ireland, was only a temporary calculation; for it would be disgraceful that our Indian possessions, in which the inhabitants differed from us in every respect, nineteen thousand seven hundred men should be sufficient; while in Ireland, which was an integral part of the kingdom, so much greater a number was required.—He trusted the Finance Committee would be re-appointed, and that we should follow the example of the United States, in observing an economical system with regard to every branch of the public service.

stated, that the large force which it was necessary to keep up in the colonies, was a sufficient reason why the state of those colonies should be investigated. The noble lord, who was lately at the head of the war department, on his examination before the Finance Committee, had stated, that by the system of reliefs, and the companies necessary to be kept up dépôts, a force of nearly eighty thousand men were necessarily kept up for our colonial possessions. This was an enormous expense to be incurred for the sake of those colonies. There were three ways of diminishing the expenditure incurred by the present system of garrisoning them. The first was, by diminishing the number of our colonial possessions; the second, by diminishing the force in particular garrisons; and the third, by substituting some other force for that which now garrisoned them. Ceylon, and another of our colonies, it was said, might be got rid of, or the management transferred, so as to produce a saving of six thousand five hundred men in our land force. Then, in some of the colonies, the garrisons might be diminished. He contended, for instance, that six thousand troops were more than enough for North America. It had been admitted, too, that our troops in the colonies merely acted as a police to preserve tranquillity; and that being the case, he had no doubt that some other force might be substituted. There was no reason why there should not be an armed police in the colonies like that in Ireland. Before he sat down, he begged to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether it was intended to reduce the number of troops now employed in them?

observed that, notwithstanding the sneer with which the hon. member for Callington had said, that he would not deal in proposals for reducing twenty thousand or twenty-five thousand men, he was prepared to shew to the committee that in the years 1822, 1823, 1824, and 1825, the whole military force of the country did not exceed sixty-nine thousand men. In those years, we had not more than twenty thousand men employed in the navy, and five thousand in the artillery; and now we had eighty-nine thousand infantry, and more than thirty thousand men employed in the navy. He had never heard any complaint made against the manner in which the public service had been performed in those years; and therefore he thought that, as the country was in a state of such profound peace, we might safely venture to reduce the number of men for the year from eighty-nine thousand to sixty-nine thousand. His gallant friend had objected to the number of troops employed in our colonies, and very justly. He would say that, if the public wished to be relieved from taxation, it must force the government to act differently towards the colonies. If we were to have foreign possessions, and were to keep them as military garrisons, instead of allowing them to incorporate with the rest of the empire, we must incur great expense. If the colonists were placed in the situation, in which they ought to be placed as British subjects, we might get rid of three millions of odious taxes, which pressed hard upon the middling classes of society. Why should we have six thousand men in the Canadas?

intimated, that we had not three thousand men there.

said, that the amount of our force in North America was six thousand men, and the Canadas were in North America. The rest of our possessions in that quarter were islands, and, except from seals and whales, he knew not what invaders they had to fear. There must be some other reasons than those which had yet been mentioned, for keeping up so large a force in our colonies. He thought the real reason was to be found in their internal state, in which the governors were generally found at variance with the people. Our colonies were treated as conquered countries, instead of as friendly states. That was the only reason why thirty-three thousand men were not sufficient for the colonies. That number, according to the statement of the late Secretary at War, was kept up to nearly seventy-five thousand men, by the necessity for reliefs. The House would see that this question was one of immense importance: since, if eight millions was the whole amount required for the army, by the reduction of above a third of the number of men, we might be able to effect a reduction of nearly three millions, and might thus get rid of the taxes on candles and soap, which pressed so heavily on the middling classes. He therefore declared, that next to Ireland, he thought the state of the colonies was the most important subject that could be brought before the House. If the government was of a more paternal nature, the force now employed would not be necessary. The present system of governing the colonies, was destructive of our finances, and attended with heavy burthens on the British people. Besides if the force was withdrawn from the colonies, there would be fewer complaints against the governors; for, when governors had an overwhelming force at their disposal, they were seldom inclined to listen to reason. He would avail himself of that opportunity of doing an act of justice towards the gallant officer who now filled the situation of Secretary for the Colonies. When that gallant officer was first appointed he had deprecated his appointment, because he was anxious to see the colonies governed by the principles of civil polity, and not ruled by the iron rod of military government. He was happy to say, that since the gallant officer had been Colonial Secretary, the system of governing the colonies had been greatly improved. He anticipated what had not taken place [a laugh]. He had reason to believe, that the orders which the gallant officer had transmitted both to Canada and to the Cape of Good Hope, were much wiser and much better than those of his right hon. predecessor, from whom he had expected much better things. He was convinced that, if the colonies were properly administered, fifteen thousand men would be found sufficient for their defence. He could not conceive why the gallant officer should boast of the reduction of troops to be made in India. Those troops cost the country nothing; for the expense of them was defrayed by the East India Company. Though we had reduced our force by five thousand men, the charges of recruiting were for this year, the same as for the last. This was a little unaccountable at first sight; but the gallant officer would, perhaps, explain it.

said, that the hon. member for Aberdeen was not satisfied, in his opening speech, with having attacked the colonies, but he had followed up his attack in his second speech. He persevered, after all he must have heard, in saying that the colonies were a great burthen to the country, when the fact was, that so far from being a burthen, they added mate rially to the wealth and strength of the country. This, indeed, was so evident a proposition, that it only required the hon. member to open a leaf in his book of common arithmetic, and calculate the account fairly in the whole of its application, to satisfy himself of that fact. He said, that the country had to pay 3,000,000l. of direct taxes annually for the support of the colonies; but in making this statement, he kept out of view the great, though indirect assistance received from the colonies, in their consumption of British manufactures, and support of the redundant population which so frequently emigrated from hence. To take up the subject, therefore, upon narrow grounds, was to create an unfair view of it. Indeed, he was satisfied that, whenever the inquiry was fully gone into, his assertion would be borne out by the fact, that the colonies were not only not a burthen to the country, but interwoven with its best interests.

said, he should be wanting in respect to the House, as well as to the individuals who had already discussed this subject, were he not to make a few remarks on what had fallen from them, in the course of this debate. He concurred entirely in opinion with the hon. member who had spoken last, that the colonial system was inseparably connected with some of the best interests of the country, with its trade and manufactures, and that any plan of economy at all founded on their relinquishment, would materially diminish the means of the state. Besides this abandonment of the colonies, other projects had been urged for the reduction of the military expenditure. It had been said, in the Finance Committee, that the force in the West Indies might be reduced to a police force for mere defence. Now to this he would reply, that the rendering them a police force, in addition to their other military duties, would be any thing rather than economy, from the wear and tear to which the men would be necessarily exposed. He certainly admitted, that the nature of a slave population required the maintenance of a military force, beyond the necessity for a defence from an external enemy. With respect to the latter, however, they must always bear in mind, that new and great states were growing up in their neighbourhood, which required to be watched with reference to contingent operations; independently of the presence of a slave population, which he should indeed rejoice to see improved and ameliorated, although he knew that such an improvement must be gradual, and that any hasty attempt, in the way which some hon. gentlemen imagined, would prove injurious rather than beneficial. Hints had been given of the employment of a police like that in Ireland; but he thought such a system not likely to be operative in the colonies. There was another suggestion; namely, that of garrisoning these possessions with colonial troops, provided on the spot; against such a course he must protest, as detrimental to the interests they were bound to preserve. It was said, that there ought not to be any increase of force, with reference to the safety of the Canadian frontier. Now, he willingly supposed that the United States had not any hostile intentions towards Canada, but he still thought, considering the great and rising power which America presented, it would be highly unwise to diminish the force upheld in the neighbouring frontier. At the same time, he quite agreed in opinion with those who thought, that the best security of the colonies was in the cultivation of their own internal resources, and that nothing was more calculated to augment the means of security of Canada than an extension of her effective population. Some allusion had been made to the discussions which had taken place between the local authorities in Canada and their principals. He readily admitted, that at such discussions, differences had occurred; but he was equally sure they had arisen, not so much from the faults of individuals, as from the working of an injudicious system, which had been long in operation. The quarrel with the late governor had arisen from bickerings of old date, and was at length thrust by circumstances into public notice. He hoped, however, that time, aided by a better system, would work a remedy for these evils, and he believed also, that it would have been impolitic to have conceded all that had been called for by the inhabitants.

rose principally in consequence of the allusion which had been made to his evidence before the Finance Committee. In that evidence, he had gone upon the principle, that the troops in the Colonies were to be relieved every ten years; so that every year, men to the amount of one-tenth of the whole force in the Colonies must be sent out to relieve others, who might be said to have served their time. Taking into account the dépôts and the veteran battalions, he thought he had satisfied the Finance Committee, that the force in the Colonies, and for their relief, was not too large. It was necessary to remember that England was a great country, that she had important foreign relations, and that she was engaged in treaties which she was bound to execute. Sudden emergencies, like that which had occurred two years ago, when five thousand men were sent to Portugal, might arise, when a standing force might be required to preserve the good faith, dignity, and character of the empire.

remarked, that the standing army at present, according to the statement of the gallant officer, was more numerous by fourteen thousand men than in the year 1822; yet he had talked as if the troops employed were twelve thousand less than in that year. The reductions that had taken place in India afforded no relief to the finances of this country, in as-much as the troops there were paid by the East India Company. He gave his hearty concurrence in the plan of the gallant officer, for the reduction of pensions. He thought the mode recommended would he most effectual, and he gave him all credit for the adoption of it, more especially as it originated with the gallant officer himself.

expressed himself dissatisfied at the imperfect information which had been obtained, upon parts of the military expenditure in the Finance Committee. He agreed as to the necessity of maintaining an efficient colonial force, and that to weaken it might hereafter invite aggression. The cavalry regiments had, however, no connexion with the foreign relief. They had been attempted to be justified upon their present scale, because of some assistance they had afforded to the coast guard for the prevention of smuggling. When, however, evidence on that point was called for in the Finance Committee, it was found entirely to have failed. Why, then, at the present period not reduce these cavalry corps?

said, he could not help looking at the extravagant scale on which the military expenditure of this country was conducted. If Russia, with her six hundred thousand troops, paid as England did, her standing army would entail upon her a debt of 40,000,0001. annually, and not leave a rouble in the imperial treasury. Neither Russia nor France had, however, great as their armies were, entailed upon the people such an expenditure as England had done. This was most extraordinary, seeing that the people of Great Britain could boast of a free constitution, and a representative government. He was afraid, however, upon close inquiry, that Englishmen would not be found to have the share in their legislature which was theoretically supposed, and that their representatives were too prone to look to their own personal interests, and to consider little the effect of their measures, provided they could obtain good things for themselves. He looked for no material reduction in the public expenditure, until the people had a more direct share than was assigned to them at present in the choice of their representatives.

The resolution was agreed to; as were also several other resolutions, after a short conversation.