said, he rose to present several Petitions from various parishes and districts in the county of Cornwall, praying that no further Concessions might be granted to the Roman Catholics. They were numerously and respectably signed. All the principal individuals resident in the parishes and districts from whence they came had put their names to the petitions, and he believed he might safely say that they spoke the feeling of the people, among whom they had been circulated, on the great question which was about to be brought forward. Although this question had been much discussed, in many parts of the kingdom, he did not think that it had any where met with that serious and sober consideration, which had been bestowed upon it in Cornwall. The labours of Wesley and others had made the people of Cornwall not only a religious but a thinking people. They had been told by their religious instructors, that in order to become free citizens of a free state, in which laws like those of England were to be appreciated and upheld, they must be so educated as to be able to reflect; and that to entertain opinions merely from prejudice, or from ignorance, was incompatible with freedom in a state. He was aware that, from the religious feeling which prevailed so strongly in Cornwall, there was little ground to believe that the people would consider this question solely as a political question; but then they did not take up the reasons of common arguers, or talk about the days of bloody queen Mary. They were actuated by a just desire that the constitution should be preserved in the same state in which it had been settled at the Revolution in 1688; they wished, too, that the blessings of civil and religious liberty should be extended to all, and that no sect of Christians should be prevented from worshipping God, in whatever way their consciences might direct; but the majority of the inhabitants of the country were, at the same time, convinced that it would be extremely unsafe, both to civil and religious liberty, to confer political power on a body of persons who acknowledged a power on earth superior to the king—a power, between heaven and earth, greater than that of the government of the country in which they lived, as appointed by the constitution of that country. the petitioners amounted in number to between 8,000, and 9,000, and they represented a considerable portion of the wealth and intelligence of the county. Of the clergy of Cornwall, he might safely say, that few of them had entered upon this subject otherwise than as one which involved the civil liberty of the country, as well as the rights and safety of the church. For his own part, he perfectly concurred with the petitioners. It was not his wish to detain the House then: he was aware that this was a subject of extreme delicacy, and he was the last man who would be inclined to agitate the country, or tempt the people to think of failing in their allegiance to the king. He deprecated all language tending to such ends. He hoped the question would be calmly and temperately discussed, and that the people of England would consider the decision of parliament as supreme. He wished to advert to a doctrine which had been held upon this point. It had been said by Mr. Locke and other casuists, that, "if the government should break in upon what was called the fundamental constitution of the country, there existed in the people an inherent right to impugn the conduct of the parliament, and that the duty of obedience would not, in such a case, be binding upon the people." Now, he conceived that no more dangerous doctrine than this could be maintained in any civilized country, and that it must not only tend to produce perpetually risings and insurrections, but at length to convert the whole country into one scene of bloodshed and desolation. The arguments which had been used to show that a compliance by his majesty with the claims of the Roman Catholics would weaken his title to the throne was equally destitute of foundation. The constitution of 1688 was not the work of a king, lords, and commons, for there was no king at the time that the declaration of Rights was agreed to. The throne was vacant; the reigning king had fled; his son was declared incapable of succeeding; and the people of this country appointed another to be their sovereign in his place. He therefore deprecated the language which had been used upon this subject; but, although he would not admit that his majesty's title to the throne could be at all weakened by giving his assent to a bill for the admission of Catholics to political power, he earnestly recommended the parliament to pause before they made any change in the constitution of 1688.—Whilst he was upon this subject he would refer to a doctrine which had not been broached in the House, but which was so unconstitutional that no man who possessed any correct notions of liberty could sit silent without giving an answer to it. It was said that the constitution of 1688 was not the primitive and principal constitution of the country, but that the constitution consisted in the subjects all obeying the king and assisting each other. But he would ask, was this the doctrine which the country had a right to expect from the descendants of those men who had expelled one family from the throne, and practically asserted, that the doctrine of divine right and passive obedience was a monstrous violation of the principles of national liberty and commonsense? He would now pass to another point. He felt obliged to declare, that what he had seen within a very short period had shaken his confidence in the integrity of public men. He should not make any allusion to individuals; but when he saw several persons all at once—and, as had been well observed by a right hon. gentleman—miraculously change their opinions upon the subject, and go over to the profession of doctrines which were opposed to all their previous principles, and that without any ostensible reasons for doing so, he felt it impossible to reconcile such conduct with any idea of consistency. With regard to the question itself, its position had been very peculiar. With the Whigs it had been made a party question; with the government it had not been made a party question: so that the persons who were opposed to the concession of political power to the Roman Catholics had never stood upon equal ground with their opponents. If it should be said, that it was impossible to carry on the administration of the country without conceding the Catholic claims, he should give a direct negative to such a proposition; for, after all, it was not very difficult to carry on a government of which the principle was—"Sicvolo—sicjubeo—statproratione voluntas." He thought that certainly some one great man was necessary to guide the government, but that it was not at all necessary to have commanding spirits in all the inferior departments of administration. He had a great respect for the duke of Wellington, as the greatest commander of modern times; but he could not in such a case place implicit confidence in him. He should not now say any thing of securities. He stood upon the general principle, and he could not consent that, in order to avoid the contingency of what was falsely called a civil war, but what would be in fact a rebellion, they should sacrifice the bulwarks of the constitution which had been established in 1688.—There was one view of this question to which he wished most particularly to advert. He firmly believed that there was a great conspiracy in existence—a conspiracy formed by certain despotic individuals—not in England, For he did not think there were to be found in England persons capable of joining in such schemes—but by certain despots abroad. He was convinced that a great conspiracy was now on foot and in progress in Europe. This conspiracy was planned at the Congress of Vienna; it was pursued at Laybach; afterwards recognized at Verona; and, finally, in the very capital of France. The connexion of the Jesuits with the late minister of France was quite notorious; and since that time they had been actively engaged in prosecuting the plans which were then interrupted. The head of this conspiracy was the conclave at Rome, and the servants who were to carry the plan into effect were the Jesuits. The object was, that the Jesuits, assisted by the monarchs of Europe, should restore the Roman Catholic religion, not to its former purity, but to its pristine supremacy. When they knew that such a conspiracy was on foot, that the Jesuits were the prime movers of it, and that the Jesuits had been connected with the late ministry in France,—than which a more time-serving ministry never existed—would it be said, that they were to look at the question of Catholic emancipation in the narrow view in which it was usually presented to them? He was sorry to trespass so long upon the House, but, seeing that the question had been hitherto discussed without any reference to the great politico-religious corporation of Rome, he should like to hear what was to be said on that subject by the gentlemen who were now the advocates of concession, and why, at the present moment, Jesuits were engaged, in England, in the education of the youth, who, if the proposed measure should he enacted, would become members of both Houses of parliament. If no other member should introduce a specific motion upon the subject, he certainly should. He was a friend to civil and religious liberty; but he believed that the measure of emancipation was the commencement of changes of which no one could see the end, and which would produce the most important changes in the constitution of parliament, and place the men who voted in favour of the measure in such a situation as would hereafter deprive them of the power of voting at all.

said, he thought it would be expected that he should make some observations on what had fallen from his hon. colleague, with respect to the sentiments entertained by his constituents in Cornwall. He could not agree with his hon. colleague, that the prevalence of their opinions against the Catholic claims was so strong as his hon. colleague had represented them to be. On the contrary, it was his firm conviction, that the intelligence and property of the county were directly in favour of those claims. What proof had been brought to disturb this conviction? Why, a few petitions got up at district meetings, and others brought about by the clergy, and other active individuals who were opposed to the Catholic claims. They had been told that nine thousand signatures were attached to these, petitions. Be it so; and what was the fair inference, when they were told that the population of the county amounted to two hundred and fifty thousand? If the feeling had been so strong as his hon. colleague had represented it, why had there been no county meeting called? He thought that, in the absence of such a meeting, and in the small proportion which the petitioners bore to the whole population of the county there was abundant proof that the majority of the county were willing to leave the question to be settled as parliament should think fit. Instead of a county meeting, the promoters of the petitions adroitly fixed upon four simultaneous meetings and they gave very little notice to their opponents. On the 7th of January, meetings were held at Launceston, Bodmin, Helstone, and Penzance. In one place, gentlemen who resided in the same hundred, though in different districts of the hundred, were not allowed to take any part in the proceedings. In another place there were three hundred persons present, and the petition was carried only by a majority of five to four. At Helstone, the meeting was under the patronage of his hon. colleague. It was held in the Dissenters' chapel, and he knew that there were two magistrates there unfavourable to the petition, though, perhaps, out of delicacy to his hon. colleague, they did not attend. At Penzance, only one day's notice of the meeting was given, and the mayor positively refused to put the petition to the vote, because he knew there was a majority against it. At Launceston, the meeting was exclusive: those only were summoned who were known to be opposed to the Catholic claims, and many of his friends who went to it were told that it was not a meeting called far the purpose of discussion. At Truro the meeting was under the direction of a noble lord who possessed great influence in the neighbourhood, and the day fixed upon for the meeting was that of the opening of the sessions at Bodmin, at which all the magistrates and professional men of Truro were obliged to attend, so that little opposition to the petition could be expected. Another meeting was advertised for the following Tuesday, at which there were present one farmer, two clergymen, the vicar, and his curate. After waiting for some time, and no one else coming, the two clergymen signed the petition, and went away. Another meeting was held at another place, at which there were present only four persons. Now what could he thought of the unanimity of the people of Cornwall, on this subject? There was doubtless unanimity between the two clergymen, but there was nothing of the sort generally. So much for the public meetings in Cornwall, at which petitions against the Catholics had been voted. He had now a few words to say upon the mode in which signatures to those petitions had been obtained. At Bodmin, while the sessions were holding, the bell-man was sent round the town to call the people to sign the anti-Catholic petition; and he had no doubt that every person of the county, who happened to be then in the town, and who was opposed to the Catholic claims, signed the Bodmin petition. Another mode was the diffusion of inflammatory pamphlets, one of which, the most infamous and disgraceful lie had ever seen, he then held in his hand. It was called "Look about you;" and at the head of it was a picture representing the Catholics of Ireland burning a number of Protestants. At Truro, the table at which the petitions were signed was covered with these pamphlets. Pictures professing to represent scenes in queen Mary's days—the burning and torturing of Protestants by the Catholics—were also put into the hands of the people. These pictures were furnished, he understood, by the Religious Tract Society in Pater-noster-row, and by them sent into the country. These pictures, together with lord Winchilsea's letter were distributed about at Launceston. There was one circumstance connected with the mode of procuring signatures to these petitions, which he had under the hand of a magistrate, and which was so remarkable, that he would read it;—"To give you an idea how eagerly signatures have been caught at, I will mention a circumstance which came within my own knowledge. Two men were brought before me for turnip-stealing, which they had been doing on a large scale, and were convicted on the clearest evidence. The case was heard in the attorney's office who acts as the clerk to the magistrates of this division, by whom the anti-Catholic petition was prepared; and these two men were solicited, and actually signed the petition immediately after theircouviction." In addition to these modes of procuring signatures, the clergymen went about from house to house, coaxing, threatening, and frightening the people to sign, and, in the neighbourhood of Penzance, this daty was put upon the churchwardens, who were sent round to the different parishes to procure signatures. He thought he had mentioned enough to prove to the House that the signatures to these petitions were not likely to have been very properly obtained; but, taking them as they were, let it be recollected that, for six weeks, these meetings had been called in various parts of the county, and that, in all that time, signatures to the amount only of nine thousand had been obtained out of a population of two hundred and fifty thousand. His opinion was, that if the people of Cornwall were not excited by fanatical preachers, or by inflammatory books and pictures, they would be very well satisfied to leave the settlement of this question to parliament. It was very seldom that lie troubled the House; but he had felt himself called upon to make this statement, in justice to his constituents. He could not sit down without expressing his sincere thanks to his majesty's government, and more particularly to the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department, for the course which they had adoped in regard to the Catholic question. He was sure that the settlement of that question was the only thing that would quiet Ireland; and he doubted not that the right hon. gentleman would fulfil his pledge of accompanying the proposed measure with such securities as would calm the apprehensions of the Protestants, while, at the same time, they would not disappoint the hopes of every reasonable Catholic.

was of opinion, that in Cornwall, as in every other county, whatever might be the numerical majority, there was a decided majority of the talent and information of the population in favour of the Catholic claims. The hon. baronet, and ether persons, had made every effort to raise the No Popery cry in Cornwall, but had been completely baffled. He gave him perfect credit for sincerity, but he was convinced that the hon. baronet was mistaken in his facts. So far was the Catholic cause from having retrograded in this country, that for several years it had been steadily advancing. On one point he was quite ready to make a compromise with the hon. baronet. If the hon baronet would assist him in letting the higher orders of the Catholics into parliament, he would assist the hon. baronet in abolishing the forty-shilling freeholders in Ireland.

observed, that no gentleman could have witnessed the talent and ability displayed by the hon. baronet, the member for Cornwall, without feeling that he had gone far in his own person to prove the truth of one observation which he had made; namely, that there were persons who entertained opinions adverse to concession to the Roman Catholics fully competent to fill any situation which the service of the Crown might demand. But, while he was willing to pay this tribute of admiration to the hon. baronet's talents, he rose now for the purpose of addressing himself to the last topic of his speech. The hon. baronet seemed to consider this all-engrossing question, which, for the last three or four years, had drawn off public attention from almost every other question, as not to be measured with reference to the interests of Ireland, or the interests of England, but that its connexion with those interests formed the smallest part of the great consideration. The hon. baronet seemed to look at this question as one of general policy. He viewed it as a European question. He seemed to think that this attempt to restore to the Catholics those rights of which they had been deprived for a considerable time, was nothing more or less than part of an extensive conspiracy, of which the centre existed at Rome. The hon. baronet stated, that ever since the congress of Vienna this formidable conspiracy had been in full and active operation. It was perfectly true, that, in the view taken by the hon. baronet, the congress of Vienna might be said to be the seat and great focus of this conspiracy. Now, one part of the proceedings of that congress, which he admired most, was that in which it was laid down as a principle of European policy, that there ought to be no distinction among any of the subjects of the powers of Europe on account of religious opinions. That principle was laid down by the act of the congress, and had been carried into effect in all parts of the continent. It had been applied all over Germany; and for some years past had been acted upon in that territory which recognized the authority of the same sovereign, who, in the beneficence of his wisdom, had recommended the Catholic claims to his parliament. The hon. baronet had said that this conspiracy originated at the congress of Vienna, and was followed up at the congresses of Laybach and Verona, and at all the succeeding meetings of the great powers of Europe. if the hon. member had confined himself to the statement, that there might be powerful ministers and servants of some of the great sovereigns of Europe who were not friendly to the civil liberties of mankind, if he bad confined himself to say, that there were among those ministers some who viewed with jealousy and apprehension the progress of information, and the advancement of knowledge, and the consummation of any thing which led to the improvement of the institutions of other countries, he might have agreed with that statement. But when the hon. baronet stated, that these men were the parties who were engaged in a conspiracy to restore to the Catholics of Ireland those privileges of which they had been so long deprived, he must beg leave entirely to dissent from the hon. baronet. As far as his knowledge and observation went, he could state most unequivocally, that that party in France, which the hon. baronet represented as friendly to the Jesuits, whom he considered to have lately sustained a defeat in that country, that that party which he represented as inimical to the liberties of France, as desirous of subverting the charter and re-establishing absolute power, as hostile to the right of representation and to the liberties of the people, which, fortunately for the peace of Europe and the happiness of this country, prevailed in France, he could state, that that party in France viewed with regret and concern the attempt now making by parliament to pacify the distracted state of Ireland, by granting concessions to the Roman Catholics. He stated this opinion advisedly, for he knew it to be consistent with truth. He was satisfied that there was no person in France friendly to the institutions of that country, and anxious to see the authority of the Pope of Rome over that Catholic country kept within its true limits, who was not delighted to see the course in which the parliament of England was about to proceed. The party, of which he had first spoken, he could assure the hon. baronet, viewed with disapprobation the course which government was now taking with respect to the Catholic claims; and the reason was, because that party was unfriendly to civil and religious liberty, and considered the effort now making to restore to this country all the blessings of civil and religious liberty, by giving to all classes of his majesty's subjects equal participation in the benefits of the constitution, as fatal to their own views, hopes, and expectations, that they might one day be able to restore that system of intolerance and oppression which formerly reigned over France. This was the reason for the alarm which that party in France felt at the course which things were taking in this country; and he was sure that if the hon. baronet would take the trouble to inquire more particularly into the opinions of public men and persons of the greatest weight on the continent, he would find that, in proportion as, they were friendly to free institutions, they were anxious to see this country adopt the course she was now pursuing; and in proportion as they were adverse to those institutions they were anxious, not from any dislike to our adopting that course which we might think best, but from a general wish to prevent the progress of liberty, to put down any attempt to grant political rights to the people. He thought it right to state this, as he knew it to be true from what passed while he was on the continent, in the course of last year; and it was his entire conviction, that there was no feeling entertained at the general centre of conspiracy, Rome, but that, having once possessed great power, the Papal authority was now only anxious to maintain itself in its present station; and that no feeling existed in other countries, but an anxiety for their own improvement, and a desire not to be under the dominion of the Pope of Rome. From what the hon. baronet had said respecting the Jesuits, he did not dissent: he should, on the contrary, be glad to see all such institutions as those to which the hon. baronet had alluded put down.

, in answer to the question, why, if the feeling of the county of Cornwall was so strong in hostility to Catholic concession, there had not been a county meeting? observed that there had been a county meeting. It had been attended by thirteen magistrates, all who were in the neighbourhood. There were two magistrates present at the meeting, who were very favourable to parliamentary reform, and who talked of Magna Charta having been obtained by our Catholic ancestors, and of other matters which had just as much to do with the Catholic question as the Institutes of Justinian. With regard to what had fallen from the right hon. member for Liverpool, it gave him infinite satisfaction to hear that right hon. gentleman say, that if any measure were brought forward to do away with monastic institutions in this country, he would be one of the first to support such a measure. Such a step, if it did not remove all his hostility to further concession to the Catholics, would remove a great part of the objections to it which existed in his mind. As to what had fallen from another hon. member, who supposed that he and those who thought with him on the subject fan cied that the modern Catholics were precisely what the Catholics were in the days of Mary, all he could say was, that they were not so besotted as to imagine that such men as the duke of Norfolk, or any other enlightened Catholics, held such opinions. He readily acknowledged that the rights which were taken away from the Catholic peers should be restored to them; and he should be happy to see every Catholic peer occupying his seat in the other House of parliament. But in the House of Commons there were no such rights of sitting. Many other persons besides Catholics were unqualified to sit in that House. No Clergyman could sit in that House, nor any one who was not qualified by possessing a certain income. If it were the natural right of every one to sit in the House of Commons, the lowest and the poorest would be entitled to seats. There was a right, however, with respect to the House of Peers; and he wished his majesty's ministers had commenced the concessions to the Catholics, by proposing a measure for the admission of Catholic peers to their seats in parliament. He would, however, rather see a measure introduced by the supporters of the Catholic claims; because he was sorry to see the government have any thing to do with the matter. The supporters of the Catholic claims should bring forward such a measure. [They have.] Then they should bring it forward again; and if they did, the country would not be taken by surprise as it now was. Every man had an undoubted right to express his opinion. It had been very much the fashion of some gentlemen, to call all those who did not agree with them ignorant and illiberal. There was nothing more indicative of a bad cause than-the adoption of such language. Gentlemen ought to recollect, that a question of policy might be viewed in different ways by different persons. Those persons who cast such reflections on their opponents ought to consider that they themselves may not the highest of all intelligent beings. He did not mean to disparage their intellect; but they ought to allow to other persons the free exercise of their opinions. With respect to what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman concerning the late ministry of France, of which M. Villèle was the head, he was rather surprised to hear that administration had been opposed to the Catholic claims. He only knew that its organs were not opposed to those claims.

said, he did not assert what he had asserted on any official grounds; but of this he was sure, that if the hon. baronet were to go to Paris, and mingle with society in that capital, he would find that the friends of the Jesuits, and the enemies of Catholic emancipation, were the same persons.

presented a petition against concession to the Roman Catholics from the county palatine of Chester. The hon. gentleman said, that the petition was not to be considered as speaking the sentiments of the county at large.

, connected as he was with the county of Chester, begged to be allowed to say a few words on the subject. He fully concurred in his hon. friend's character of the petition which had been agreed to at Knutsford, and which had just been presented. He could corroborate his statement, that the petition was not to be considered as expressing the sentiments of the gentlemen, freeholders, and other inhabitants of the county of Chester. It might have many signatures; and he had nothing to say against the respectability of many of those by whom it had been signed; but he had good reason to believe, that some of the individuals, whose names were attached to the petition, were of very tender age. When, however, he recollected the efforts that were made to give the meeting at Knutsford an overwhelming character, such as to rival the meeting of the county of Kent—when he recollected the individuals who condescended to go round and endeavour to prevail upon persons to attend the meeting, by stating that the question was not merely whether the Catholics should be admitted, to civil rights, but whether the Protestant Church should be allowed to be endangered, he was surprised that a much larger party was not found to support the petition. He was sure he might say, in the name of the great body of the people of Cheshire, that they were ready to acquiesce in any measure which his majesty's ministers might bring forward to give tranquillity to Ireland and strength to the empire; provided they could show that the concessions which they proposed to make were compatible with the security of the Protestant Establishment. So much in their name. In his own, not believing that there was any danger, he thought it idle to talk of securities. Even if any danger really existed, the best way to obviate it was to do justice. He trusted he should soon see the day, when all civil disabilities on account of religion should be removed. He believed that the people of England were too well instructed to be any longer made the dupes of ignorance, bigotry, and faction.

complained of the manner in which the petition had been got up, and of the arts resorted to in order to obtain signatures. He knew that the petition had been signed by boys under twelve years. He could not say how many men of straw, or men in buckram, or men from ale-houses, had signed this petition; but there were only seven hundred signatures, instead of thirty-thousand, which had been anticipated. The petitioners presented themselves to the House in a garb in which he found it impossible to recognize them: they styled themselves "the friends of civil and religious liberty." Now, he had the honour to know many of them, and he could declare, as he hoped for emancipation this session, that he had never heard a sentiment in favour of civil and religious liberty proceed from one of them. He objected to the words of the petition, where it stated, that the Catholics never distinguished between their religious and civil allegiance. He might prove the contrary by numerous instances, and particularly that of the Catholic lord Howard, who had destroyed the Catholic Armada in his service to a Protestant princess, and who had been excommunicated for so doing. He might instance another great officer, who, in serving the prince of Orange, had always declared, that his religion belonged to himself, but his sword belonged to his prince.

presented a petition from the freeholders and other inhabitants of the county of Devon, to which twenty-six thousand names were attached, praying that no further concessions might be granted to the Roman Catholics, The hon. member stated, that his own opinions on the question had undergone no change.

said, that having been desired by a numerous and respectable body of his constituents to attend in his place in the House, and join his colleague in the presentation of the petition, he felt it right to testify to the numbers of the meeting, at which the petition was resolved on, and to the respectability, he believed, of many among the persons who Composed that meeting. He was happy to bear testimony to the fact, that the petition, though he was sorry to say adverse to the great principle which he thought ought to regulate the policy of the country on this important question, was couched in temperate language. The petition was numerously signed, and the meeting had been numerously attended; indeed, he believed, that not one more numerous, or more respectable, had ever been assembled in the Castle-yard at Exeter. The petition was decided on by a majority, though not an overwhelming one, nor, in the fair use of the term, an exceedingly great majority. He should presently have to call the attention of the House to a petition of an opposite nature, which expressed the opinions of another large portion of his constituents.

said, he felt unable to add a word to, the character and respectability of the meeting from which the petition emanated beyond the terms used by the hon. baronet. He would only say, that the parties with whom the meeting originated had required the hon. baronet to attend the meeting, and to be at the presentation of their petition, for the purpose of ascertaining his sentiments on the question. In every word that had been said descriptive of the numbers, respectability, and good order, of the immense body of freeholders and other inhabitants of the county who attended on that day—upwards of sixteen thousand—it gave him great satisfaction to be able most fully to concur. One word, however, respecting one individual who had been present, a clergyman, who was said to have taken an active part in the proceedings of that day. He had not the advantage of knowing the respectable individual in question; but, from all that he had learned, and he had made numerous inquiries on the subject, there was not in society one who deserved less the character of a factious man. The very respectable and reverend gentleman in question, had a large property in Ireland, and was as zealous a clergyman as lived, and, he might add, as good a scholar, and as perfect a gentleman, as any in that House.

said, that much misre presentation had gone abroad respecting the state of public opinion in the county of Devon. It had been asserted, that the inhabitants of that county were opposed to Catholic emancipation in the proportion of ninety-nine in every hundred. He believed that, if the population of the county were divided into classes, in a manner the most favourable to the opponents of the question, the majority against it would be found not greater than nine to one. The clergy had been exceedingly active in procuring signatures to the petition before the House, and among other means to which they had resorted for this purpose, they had employed an expression attributed to the late king, but which had never been used by him. The people had likewise been told, that by signing the petition, they would support the government against the radicals. With respect to the obtaining of signatures, the promoters of the petition had certainly adopted the principle of universal suffrage; for they had pressed all classes into their service, and had even induced boys to attach their names to it. Notwithstanding all these efforts, only twenty-six thousand persons out of a male population of two hundred thousand had signed the petition, by themselves and their proxies. In point of property, he believed the preponderance was in favour of the Catholic claims in Devonshire. A few words with respect to the meeting. He could not subscribe to what had been asserted of its orderly conduct. Large bodies of persons were brought from the remote parts of the county, who conducted themselves in a most disorderly way. One of the representatives of the county (sir T. Acland) had been put down by clamour whenever he attempted to speak. In that respect, the meeting could not be said to express the feelings of the freeholders of Devonshire; for he would not libel them so far as to suppose that, after having twice returned the hon. baronet since he had voted for emancipation, they would have refused him an opportunity of vindicating the manly and consistent course of conduct which he had pursued with respect to that question.

said, he admired the manly candour of the noble lord, in the statement he had made; but the noble lord must admit, that there did appear, on the part of a considerable number at the meeting, to be a disposition to prolong the business in to the darkness of the evening, when nothing could be decided; and he believed it was a feeling that such was the intention, that induced the high-sheriff—who, though favourable to the principle of concession, had acted throughout the whole of the proceedings with the strictest impartiality—to put the question before the hon. Baronet had had an opportunity of being heard. It was a similar feeling on the part of many at the meeting, which prevented their giving an attentive hearing to the hon. baronet; for he could not suppose that there were any present who did not esteem and respect his character. He would admit, that on the side of the meeting favourable to concession, there was a most respectable display of the aristocracy. On the other side, there were lord Rolle, and a highly respectable body of the resident freeholders of the county; but of the nobility on the other side, there were many who were not residents, or, if so, who resided only for a short time in the county. That there had been much activity in forwarding the petition for signatures through the county, he was not prepared to deny; but there had been equal activity displayed in support of the petition on the other side. But surely that fact could not be urged against the respectability of the petition; for he believed, that a petition more respectably signed had never been presented to the House, than that now before it.

said, that while it gave him pain to be obliged to differ from so large a portion of his constituents, he had great pride and satisfaction in presenting, to the House a petition which, considering the circumstances which called it into action, was one of the most important which had been presented to the House for a long time. He admitted, that the county which he had the honour to represent, had for a long time been decidedly hostile to the principle of concession to the Roman Catholics, but he had the satisfaction of witnessing the gradual removal of that hostility. He had seen much of the prejudice which existed on this subject yield to fair and open discussion, and they were about to reap the fruits of that discussion: and now that this happy result was on the eve of being accomplished, it was a satisfaction, that a petition from so large and respectable a portion of the freeholders of Devonshire had been agreed to, in support of what they must all hail with so much pleasure. The petition which he now held in his hand, was from the undersigned freeholders and lease holders of the county of Devon, praying that the House would accede to the principle of concession to the Roman Catholics. He would particularly call the attention of the House to the passage in which the petitioners stated, that there never could be a settlement of the question short of emancipation, as long as it was the interest of millions to agitate it, and while a majority of that House supported their prayer. While the principle of concession was advocated by the most eminent men in the state, it was impossible that they should not continue to agitate it; and, indeed, they would be unworthy of the privileges they aspired to, if they refrained from agitating the question, in the settlement of which those rights were involved. The petitioners prayed, that the House, having a due regard to the Protestant constitution, as by law established, would settle the question in the only way in which it could be settled;—namely, by relieving the Catholics from the degraded situation in which they were now placed. The petition came from a large body of freeholders, of a county remarkable hitherto for its opposition to concession to the Catholics, and, with one exception, the only county in which the opponents of concession had ventured to discuss that question in open county meeting. It was signed by two thousand two hundred freeholders and leaseholders, and so careful were the promoters of it to ascertain the real sense of the freeholders, that no one was allowed to sign it, who did not add his address and occupation; and, with the exception of one piece of parchment, on which about a dozen names were signed, this rule was followed throughout. Public notice was given by advertisement of this intention, and a hand-bill to the same effect was sent with every copy of the petition sent for signature through the county. Opportunities were thus afforded to the opposite party to see that the parties signing were what they represented themselves to be. The result of these precautions were, that the petition was signed, as he had stated, by two thousand two hundred freeholders and leaseholders of the county—many of them men of large fortune, all of them of some substance. There were among the signatures those of fifty of the acting magistrates of the county; and of those magistrates who had been called to preside at the Quarter Sessions, three out of four were in favour of concession. The petition was also signed by the high-sheriff of the county, by the venerable Lord-lieutenant, and by a majority of the aristocracy of the county. He was aware, that the clergy of Devon were decidedly hostile to the claims of the Catholics; but, nevertheless, the petition contained the signature of twenty of that body, at the head of whom was that of the venerable Chancellor of the diocese, a man at once the ornament of his profession, and of the society in which he moved. In giving this enumeration, he trusted he had shewn that this was no common petition. He would add his conviction, that within twelve short months from the present time, there would be found a considerable majority of the whole county, cordially approving, not of concession to be given, but of concession already granted.

presented a petition from Halifax, in Yorkshire, signed by ten thousand, five hundred persons, against any further concession to the Catholics. The signatures contained the names of many gentlemen of respectability and high character; and the residence and occupation of each person were affixed to each name.

said, he had received instructions to support the prayer of this petition; and from his knowledge of the manner in which it was got up, it might be put on a par with that which had just been presented from Devon. As he was on his legs, he would advert to what had fallen from his hon. colleague, as to the disposition of the inhabitants of the town which he had the honour to represent. His hon. colleague had stated, that the sentiments of the majority of the town of Hull, were in favour of concession; and he had founded that assertion on the fact, that there were fifteen thousand persons in the town who had not signed. Now, he was at issue with his hon. colleague on this subject. He would contend, that his hon. colleague had not fairly represented the sentiments of his constituents on this question, and an opportunity would soon be given for putting the fact beyond doubt. He did not mean to say, that his hon. colleague stated what he did not believe to be true, but he would prove that he was wholly erroneous in his statement. A second petition was now getting up in Hull, which would show that the majority were decidedly hostile to Catholic emancipation.

Ordered to lie on the table.

rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the law respecting the Employment and Relief of able-bodied persons from the poor-rate. He began by observing, that the present moment was not the proper occasion for discussing the intended bill in its details, yet he trusted the House would give him their indulgence while he delivered a few observations which would convey some information to many hon. members, who might not have given the subject their particular attention. The question was one which involved the comfort and happiness of a large portion of the poorer classes of this country; but it also involved an important pecuniary consideration to the rest of the community. It had been stated by Mr. Beaufoy, in 1780, that before fifty years from that time the sums paid for poor-rates would exceed nine millions, and the prophecy was now nearly fulfilled; for at the present moment the amount exceeded eight millions a year. But the mere amount paid to the poor, or the sums spent in litigating questions arising from the present state of the law between parishes, though deserving of consideration, was not the most important feature of inquiry, compared with the misery which the abuse of the poor-laws was calculated to bring on large classes of the community. A short time previous to the commencement of the present century; namely, in 1795, the number of paupers in England and Wales was as one in twelve. In the first year of the century, they were as one in nine, and now they were as one in seven. The number of persons receiving parochial relief at present in the country, was more than two millions. No man could look at this state of things and not say, that the evil was of a magnitude which required calm consideration, as to the remedy. The very fact of receiving parochial relief created a want of self-respect, which had a direct tendency to the increase of crime. Ther were various causes which had contributed to the increase of pauperism in the country: but without wandering over so wide a field, he would come at once to what he considered the chief cause. It seemed to be agreed on all hands, that the main cause was the abuse of the poor-laws. This law was so short, that he was sure he should be allowed to state it in substance. It was the forty third of Elizabeth, and was divided into two parts, each very simple in itself. The first set forth, that the overseers of the parish should set to work those who had no means of maintaining themselves, and the children of those who could not maintain them; and the second part enacted, that they should afford relief to the aged, the lame, the blind, the impotent, and such others, being poor and unable to help themselves. To a departure from the principle of this act, we owed much, if not nearly the whole, of the evils which had grown up into the poor laws as they were now administered. He would, come to the first extensive departure from that principle. In the year 1795, there was no great fluctuation of prices: but soon after, the fluctuation in the price of corn became so great, as to raise it to double in a very short time. Such sudden rises and falls of corn by fits and starts, which, owing to the Corn-bill passed last year, could never again occur in this country, were productive of the most serious injury to the poorer classes;—to such an extent, indeed, as that few of them were able to meet the demands of their families, even for bare subsistence. The magistrates of that day—with good and humane intentions no considering doubt, but without considering the consequences to which their acts would lead—found in one clause of the act, a word of ambiguous meaning, which they thought would let in the kind of relief which they felt it necessary to bestow. This was the clause which said, that relief should he afforded to the "aged, the lame, the blind, the impotent," &c. The word "impotent," they construed to extend to children; and on this they conceived that they were justified in ordering a money allowance to children. From this allowance to children, they went to an allowance for rent to the poor, and then to an increase of wages from the poor-rates. To these were soon after added, a bread scale of Wages and that scale soon became the minimum of Wages to be paid. This was, in its effects, equally injurious with the others, and led to the evils which were now so severely felt throughout the country. That they had led to such evils, he would not assert merely on the authority of many most able and experienced men, who had delivered their opinions on the subject—he would rather prove his assertion by the repeated opinions of committees of that House. The hon. member then read several extracts from the reports of different committees of the House of Commons, for the purpose of proving, that the main cause of the increase of crime, among the lower classes of the population, was the low rate of Labourers' Wages, and the want of sufficient employment; and that this was aggravated by the abuses of the poor-laws, which led at once to a depression of Wages, and to an increase in the number of paupers. He called the attention of the House to the operation of those laws; stating, that it was not so much to the amount of the relief which they afforded to the poor that he objected, as to the form in which they afforded it. If the relief were given in the form of employment, in which money was paid in proportion to the work performed, it would not be objectionable; for the relief then would be distasteful to the eye and to the feeling, and when the necessity for it was over, the party receiving it would return with pleasure to any employment by which he could obtain an independent livelihood. But when the relief afforded to the pauper was founded upon a rate paid for each of his children, it tended to destroy all that forethought and providence, by which men were enabled to meet and conquer pecuniary difficulty. The consequence of this system was, that in many parishes, single men were in a much worse situation than married men—a circumstance which led them to make improvident marriages, in order to entitle them to ask for a greater allowance, as a matter of right. The number of paupers was in this manner perpetually kept up, and it was thus rendered impossible for an industrious man to work himself above the level of that want to which circumstances had degraded him. The hon. member proved, from the evidence of a Mr. Martin, that the result of acting upon this system, had been most injurious in the parish in which that gentleman resided, and stated that such was the case, not in one parish only, but of numberless parishes, in many counties of England. He believed, that in eighteen counties this system prevailed, and he was sorry to say, that it was not stationary, but was invading new districts, destroying the independence of those which were well off, and increasing the misery of those which were sufficiently miserable before. It extended, he might say, through every county which lay south of a line drawn from Bath to Cambridge, and neutralized the efforts and paralysed the exertions of all those benevolent persons who wished to ameliorate the condition of their poorer countrymen. As a proof of the injurious results of the present system, he would mention a fact which had been communicated to him by an hon. gentleman who was a member of that House. That hon. gentleman had told him, that on one occasion twelve poachers were apprehended, eleven of whom turned out to be paupers. They were working at 2s. 6d. a week, and the twelfth paid them 3s. 6d. a night to engage with him in his nocturnal depredations. Was it wonderful that these paupers had joined him? or rather, would it not have been wonderful if they had refused to join him, placed as they were in a situation from which their own industry could not relieve them? The hon. member, after pointing out the evils of our present system of poor-laws, proceeded to describe the remedy which he proposed to apply to them. The proposition of the committee, which had sat last session upon this subject, and which he now brought forward as its chairman, was to restore the law to the state in which it was at the time when the present abuses were introduced into it as a temporary remedy for temporary evils, but which had acquired their character as abuses by being made a permanent system. He proposed to do away with money allowances to able-bodied men, so long as they were in the employment of third persons; a rule which would draw a line between the industrious and the idle part of the community. There must be, however, some exceptions to this rule; as, for instance, during the temporary illness of the labourer; or where the party was a widow; or where, being a wife, she was deserted by her husband; or where, from old age or other infirmity, the party was able to earn some money, but not sufficient to support himself; or where the party had suffered loss from fire or flood. This was no change in the law, but the restoration of the law to the state in which it was in 1795, when the evil arose out of the high price of provisions. It could not be urged against this system, that it was impracticable, because facts proved that it was very practicable. It was already in practice in the north of England, where the peasantry were acknowledged to be more elevated in tone, and more virtuous in morals, than in any other portion of the kingdom. He asked the House to pass this bill, not because it would increase their rents, or diminish the poor-rates, but because it would be for the great benefit of a large and numerous class of the community. He hoped that they would consider the measure which he now moved for leave to bring in, with calmness and deliberation; and, in order to prepare them for the discussion of it, he would venture to refer gentlemen to the report of last session. In that report they would find reference made to all the preceding reports; and they would thus be prepared, at some future period, to do something for those unfortunate persons who, as long as these abuses continued, could not hope to extricate themselves from the misery in which they were involved. The hon. member concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill, "to declare and amend the Law relative to the Employment and Payment of Able-bodied Persons from the Poor Rate, and for the better rating Tenements under a certain value."

said, he was willing to acknowledge how much the country was indebted to his hon. friend for the attention which he had paid to this question for many years back. He agreed with his hon. friend, that great advantages would be derived from raising the price of labour, but he confessed he saw great difficulties in the way of raising the character of the English peasantry to what it was in the year 1795, unless steps were also taken to improve the condition of the people of Ireland. Before his hon. friend could expect to succeed in his views, there were two very important measures to be adopted. The first was to improve the condition of all classes of the peasantry throughout England, Ireland, and Scotland. If they did not raise the condition of Irishmen in particular, but left inducements for them to leave their own country, and come over to compete with Englishmen in labour, working at least as hard, and able to live on one half, they could not raise the condition of the English. At present it was not to be expected, nor, indeed, was it to be wished, that they should remain at home to starve. He hailed the steps which his majesty's ministers were about to take, as the sure means of promoting this desirable object. The country would become tranquil, capital would flow in, and permanent employment would be afforded to the people at home. These advantages might nut appear to those who were so clamorous against the proposed measures; but he conscientiously believed they would go very far to raise the condition even of the people of England. There was, however, another step to be taken which was also of great importance. The monopoly in the corn trade must be done away with. That monopoly tended, as much as any thing else, to degrade the people, and to render assistance from the Poor-laws necessary.

suggested, that some measure for the enforcement of the principle of the bill ought to accompany it, seeing that it was the interest of the large farmer that the wages of the labourer should be paid out of the Poor-rates.

Leave was given to bring in the bill.

said, that in the absence of all opposition to the motion, of which he had given notice, he felt it unnecessary to detain the House with more than a few words in explanation of its object. The motion arose out of the labours of the Finance Committee. During the recess his attention had been drawn to the extensive reports which had been placed by that committee upon the table of the House, respecting the Crown Lands, and he would venture to say, that no subject required greater investigation, or would compensate inquiry more largely, than the particular subject to which he was alluding. The object of his motion was to put the House in possession of the value of this property, and especially of the value of such portions of it as were let out on leases, which would expire in the course of the next seven Years; also to obtain information as to the applications which had been made for the renewal of such leases; and also to obtain a statement of the present production of the 500,000l. which had been expended in the purchase and erection of houses and other property connected with the Crown Lands. He was of opinion that no property was of so improving a nature as that particular description of property. He thought that, if the property of which the leases would expire in the next seven years, should be re-let at its full value, many hundred thousands of pounds would find their way into the hands of the chancellor of the Exchequer, in the shape of revenue. The result of the returns for which he was going to move, would fully establish that position. He must, however, mention one taking of Crown Lands, to show that a mi nute investigation into the property of those lands was required by circumstances. Though he had frequently had occasion to complain of the great expense and delay which attended the transfer of real property in this country, there was a felicitous expedition in the transfer in question, which he could not sufficiently admire. He alluded to the expeditious sale of an estate connected with the Crown Lands in the county of Essex. He could state it as a positive fact, that at the sale of some Crown Lands recently in the county of Essex, near Romford, one of the valuable incidents of this property was described as being the vested right in the purchaser to appoint two out of three of the local magistrates, who had the administration of the civil and criminal law in a wide and populous district. Now, one of these magistrates was certainly a very respectable man; but whether he ought to have such a power intrusted to him was a different thing, for he was a brewer, and the owner of fifty out of seventy public-houses which were situated in the district. He thought it high time to have these matters inquired into, for which purpose he should move for the requisite returns to enable him hereafter to bring the matter under the revision of that House. He concluded by moving for a series of returns, showing the nature and plan of Sale of Crown Lands, and the manner in which this portion of the Crown Revenue was allotted and disposed of.

was anxious to know whether his hon. friend intended to include in his returns, the business of those light-houses, which were at the disposal of the Treasury, independent of the Woods and Forests, and the Trinity-house. Three years ago a committee had sat on the subject of these light-houses, which imposed so heavy a tax upon the shipping interest, and had reported their sense of this onerous tax. The result was, that the Trinity house had reduced their charges one half, and a promise was given by Mr. Huskisson, in his place in parliament, that on the expiration of certain leases of light-houses, which had been granted to individuals, they should not be renewed. Now, in defiance of this promise, the lease of Winterton light-house to lord Braybrooke had been some months ago renewed. It was most extraordinary that the Treasury should have forfeited their pledge in that respect. How, in the present state of the shipping interest, they could think of hampering it with wanton charges for gross jobs, was to him surprising. If these returns were not included in the motion, he should give notice of a specific motion respecting these private light-houses, for the 2nd of March.

expressed his surprise, that before the hon. gentleman had characterized these transactions as gross jobs, he had not called for some specific information, or made those inquiries which must have satisfied him that he was totally misinformed upon the subject. Now, the fact was, that in the case of lord Braybrooke no extra charge was laid on the shipping for the Winterton lights, but they were placed exactly on the same reduced scale as the Trinity-house charges. The facts were strictly these:—lord Braybrooke had, at the expense of several thousand pounds, erected light-houses upon a certain part of his own estate, which were let on lease for a term of years. Upon the expiration of that term, the government had to negotiate for the purchase of the land in question, or to renew the lease, upon such terms as were thought advisable. Upon the best consideration which they could give the subject, they preferred a renewal of the lease rather than to pay down a large sum of money; but they had stipulated when the renewed term expired, that the light-houses and land should become absolutely vested in the Crown, and in the mean time that the charges should be as moderate as those of the Trinity-house.

The motion was agreed to.