presented a petition from the directors of the poor in the parishes of the Holy Trinity and St. Michael's in Coventry, against the reduction of duty on foreign manufactured Silk goods. The hon. member observed, that there existed great distress amongst the persons engaged in that trade in Coventry and several other parts of the country. He regretted that he was not in his place when the hon. member for Cheshire had addressed the House on this subject, as he could have borne testimony to the great extent of the distress in which persons in that trade were at present involved. He rose for the purpose of saying, that if some other member did not move for the appointment of a committee on this subject, he himself would undertake the task. It was not a want of zeal for the interests of his constituents which prevented him from having done so before now; but he felt that until one great question which occupied so much the mind of the public was disposed of, any other question, however important, would not meet that deliberate consideration which its merits might demand; though it could not be denied that a subject which involved the subsistence of nearly half a million of men, a large portion of them in the metropolis, deserved the most serious consideration. Another reason why he had not introduced a motion for a committee was, that he did not wish to do it in the absence of the President of the Board of Trade, who had not yet taken his seat in that House.

said, that great distress existed in the Silk Trade. Though he was not prepared to say it arose wholly from the late measures, he had no doubt it was greatly aggravated by them. After mature deliberation, his opinion was in favour of a committee of inquiry.

Ordered to lie on the table.

presented a petition from Kingston-upon-Thames, against any further concessions to the Roman Catholics. It was most numerously and respectably signed, and he could assure the House that it was the spontaneous expression of the feeling of the petitioners. There was a counter-petition to be presented from the same place, of equal respectability, but he must say that it did not bear so large a portion of signatures; and he thought that the difference of numbers was a matter of vast importance as to the question at issue; namely, whether the Parliament should or should not alter the fundamental constitution of the country, against the sense of a decided majority of the people.

as he was commissioned to present the counter-petition which had been alluded to, begged leave to ask his hon. colleague one question. He agreed that the petition presented by his hon. colleague was more numerously, but he denied that it was more respectably signed, than the one in his possession. The question he would ask the hon. member was, whether he was aware that the petition he had presented had been signed by several of those juvenile statesmen who had been alluded to last night? If that were the case, he certainly should not on that account object to the petition. He had every wish to throw the doors of that House wide open, that the opinions of all classes of his Majesty's subjects might be heard. It appeared, however, that some of the fair sex, as well as the charity boys, had attached their names to the petition. These facts proved, that the schoolmaster was abroad with a vengeance.

said, that his hon. colleague was the last person from whom he should have expected to have heard a complaint of the schoolmaster being abroad. On looking into the petition, he certainly discovered the names of several females; but they were female householders, and he would ask the House whether a female householder, feeling an interest in the religious institutions of the country, had not a right to petition parliament to uphold those constitutions. Subtracting, however, the female names from the petition, there was still a majority in favour of his petition in the proportion of four to one. It was not in his power to discover by their names, as in the case of the females, whether any charity children had or had not signed the petition: but he wished to state, in justification of these poor children, that the town from which the petition came owed all its charities to the bounty of Queen Elizabeth. It might, therefore, be some excuse for these boys, if any had signed the petition, that they were brought up under the bounty of that great patroness of the reformed religion.

said, that when he saw it was the determination of ministers to stifle the expression of the public voice, and to throw ridicule on petitions against granting further power to the Roman Catholics,—when he found that improper motives were attributed to those who presented those petitions, he looked with constitutional jealousy on men who pursued such a line of conduct. After what a minister of the Crown had stated last night, that the lower orders ought not to petition, the tocsin of alarm ought to be sounded. He repelled with indignation, the charge brought against himself and those hon. gentlemen who entertained the same opinions with him as to the Catholic claims, that their conduct was base, factious, and infamous; and if such an accusation were made, he should look to a high commentator on the British constitution for his justification. That commentator had stated, that the only manner in which the people could be made to serve in the government, with benefit to themselves, was, not by interfering, but by influencing; the power of the people was not when they struck, but when they kept in awe.

said, he was disposed to regard the right of the people to petition with the greatest reverence, but he thought the adopting of arts and misrepresentations to get up petitions, was a violation of that right. He had no objection to boys or females signing petitions; but, as he walked along the streets of the city, he had seen placards inviting the people to sign petitions against the Roman Catholics, and he had seen old women of the worst description, sign them without being asked one question. If public opinion was to be collected, it should be where men could show themselves, and where objections could be publicly stated, and explanations given. But these hole and corner people, with their placards, such as were to be seen in the streets of London, appeared to him so grossly to violate the legitimate right of petitioning, that he almost doubted whether such petitions ought to be received.

rose to answer the statement made by a noble lord, that he had last night asserted, that no value could be placed upon petitions from the lower orders. He had never said any such thing. He was answering an hon. member who was of opinion, that the number of the signatures to a petition greatly enhanced its value. That he had denied; but he had never asserted, that the people at large were not fully entitled to express their sentiments to parliament.

believed that the practice of tampering with men to sign petitions was not entirely on one side. He understood that a petition had been got up in favour of the Catholic claims in the vestry-room of one of the parishes in the hon. alderman's ward, and that men had been offered a pot of beer each to sign it.

said, it was unknown to him that a petition had been set on foot in any parish of his ward; and he did not believe that there was, for the people there always acted openly.

thought, that the petitions should be examined, not to see whether boys signed them, but how they were got up. He understood that the basest means had been adopted to influence the people to sign anti-Catholic petitions in the city he represented. Exciting placards had been exhibited, one of which ran as follows:—"The King,—our true Protestant King,—had declared within the last forty-eight hours, that he still entertains the same opinion on the Catholic question as he did in 1827, and if his faithful people rally round the throne, the slightest inroad will not be made upon the constitution." All this was known to be false by the respectable part of the people, but it might be taken for true by the ignorant; who were thus taught to believe that their monarch was base enough to turn round on his ministers and to overthrow that great measure, which he had advised parliament to deliberate upon. The using the name of the sovereign in this way, was base indeed. He believed there was a great change of opinion throughout the country, on the subject of the Catholic question. He had always voted for Catholic emancipation, and by so doing had offended his constituents; but he understood, that they were now disposed to place full confidence in his majesty's ministers, and he should have no fear of the result if he had to canvass the city to-morrow.

stated, that the people of the county he represented, (Glamorgan-shire), were disposed to rest satisfied until they saw what the measure was which ministers proposed to bring forward; but within a few days some emissaries had been sent over from the opposite shore, who had published the most violent placards, calling upon the people to sign a petition against the Catholics. He thought it highly disgraceful to those who sent over these emissaries.

said, he would take the present opportunity to ask a question of some importance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. gentleman was aware that there was an order of the House for a call on Thursday next. The noble lord who moved for that call, had stated that he would not press it, until the day on which ministers should bring for, ward the measure they had in contemplation with respect to the Roman Catholics. Now, before the House adjourned, it would be convenient to know whether that call was likely to take effect on Thursday, or whether it would be deferred to a later period.

stated, that it was the intention of some one member of his majesty's government, on behalf of that government, to make on Thursday next an explanation to the House of the nature of the measure which his majesty's government had in contemplation, with respect to the removal of the disabilities affecting the Roman Catholics.

presented a petition from Sheffield, in favour of Catholic emancipation. He said, that the meeting at which the petition was resolved on had been regularly convened by the authorities of the place. It was attended by between six thousand and eight thousand persons, and the petition was signed by upwards of seven thousand. This was a proof, that when the question was fairly stated to great bodies of the people, they did not feel that indisposition to it which was generally supposed.

said, that the petition had not been carried about for signatures. The feeling in favour of the Catholics was not confined to Sheffield. He had had the honour to preside over a meeting held at Leeds, at which sixteen thousand persons were present; and on that occasion, a petition, praying for the removal of all civil disabilities imposed on account of religious opinions, was carried by a decided majority, notwithstanding the efforts of the Leeds Brunswick club.

said, he believed that in Sheffield and other large towns in the north, opinions were nicely balanced, with regard to the question of emancipation, but throughout the county the numerical majority and popular clamour were certainly opposed to it.

presented a petition from Kingston-on-Thames, in favour of emancipation. He said, that the persons who had signed it, though not so numerous, were quite as respectable as those who had signed the petition presented by his hon. colleague. In his opinion, there would be no peace for the empire if emancipation was not carried. He thought that the safety of the Protestant institutions depended on conciliation, not on coercion; on admission, not on exclusion. Justice had not been done to the two statesmen who had placed the question on its present footing. He trusted that the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department would be returned for Oxford by a triumphant majority. Between the emperor Napoleon and the duke of Wellington there was this difference;—the former used all his power to forge chains for mankind; the latter employed his power in releasing his fellow-countrymen from the chains which had been imposed on them in darker ages.

presented a petition from Hull in favour of emancipation. He expressed his surprise that his hon. colleague should, on a former night, have contradicted the statement he had made, that the majority of the inhabitants were favourably inclined to emancipation. He repeated that such was the fact. The most undue means had been resorted to, in order to get up petitions against the Catholics in Hull. He had received a letter from a friend which stated, that persons were posted at shop-doors, like barkers at mock auctions, to solicit signatures. One of these men had asked some sailors to sign the petition, and when they hesitated he said, "My lads, do you want the Catholics to take your wages and cut your throats?" The sailors still hesitated; when he said, "If you do not sign, your wages will be taken away, and your throats cut." The celebrated Letter of a noble lord was placarded on the walls of the town. In another placard it was stated, that the consequence of emancipation would be the having of a Popish king and a Popish parliament. A copy of the declaration of the mutineers at the Nore, in 1798, was like wise placarded. What that had to do with the Catholic question he could not conceive. He believed, that if such extraordinary influences as those to which he had adverted were not called into action, there would be but few petitions against the Catholic claims.

said, he would contend, that the majority of his constituents were adverse to concession to the Roman Catholics; and, as a proof of it, referred to the fact, that at the last election, he had been placed five hundred a head on the second day's poll, solely with reference to his opinions, as contrasted with those of his hon. colleague, on this very question. It was a conviction of the sentiments of the people in this respect, which prevented his hon. colleague from being chaired on that occasion in the town where he resided. With respect to the letter which his hon. colleague had read, little weight ought to be attached to an anonymous communication; but if any parties had impressed upon the minds of the people of that town the danger of having a Popish king, was not that danger made out by what they had recently witnessed? They had seen a Popish parliament and a Popish treasury, and the money of the Irish people collected to supply that treasury. They were, then, he contended, justified in pointing out other dangers, which they might apprehend.

said, that he wished to take that opportunity of asking whether it was the intention of the Admiralty to introduce any measure for abolishing the system of the Impressment of Seamen? He was one of those who were fully aware of the delicacy of the question; but the present system appeared to him so inconsistent with personal freedom, and so re-pugnant to the spirit of the people, that nothing short of a conviction of its absolute necessity could make him for a moment concur in its continuance. It was not only as it affected the persons of the sailors themselves, but as it affected the interests of the commercial classes of this country, that it was of great and vital importance. He had always thought, that if no plan could be adopted to do away with the whole system, it was worth while to consider if it could not be altered and amended. As a mercantile man he could state, that the system was most injurious to the commercial interests. It not only compelled ship-owners to pay sailors a most enormous rate of wages—more especially in trading to the colonies, or to places abroad, where our squadrons were stationed—but it obliged them to pay large sums under the name of "run money," in consequence of having their seamen liable to be impressed at any part of the voyage. He objected to the system altogether, but most especially to that part of it which vested the power in the hands of inferior officers, without putting them under the control of any superior commander on the station where they happened to be. That power was often most injuriously exercised where there was but one vessel on the station; and he, therefore, thought that if the government could not get rid of the evil altogether, it was worthy of their consideration, whether they could not alter the present mode of administering the power, and place it in the hands of high and responsible officers; and not allow any petty officer to impress seamen from merchant vessels either at sea or in port. He requested the right hon. gentleman to state, what were the intentions of government upon this subject.

said, that the hon. member could not expect that, in a Committee of Supply, he was prepared to go into the question of the impressment of seamen. He would however state, for the hon. members information, that certainly the Admiralty had no intention of bringing forward any plan for the abolition of impressment altogether. The hon. member was aware that, during peace, that mode of manning the royal navy was never resorted to but in extreme cases, and that in war it was only employed when necessity required it. He would add, however, that regulations had been already made and were in progress, which would contribute so much to the comfort of the seamen, that there was little chance of its being resorted to even in time of war, as there was every probability that a sufficient supply of men could in future be obtained without it. At the same time, so much depended on the government being able, in cases of emergency, to put forth the whole naval strength of the country, that it would not be wise to give up the power which they possessed, of compelling the services of commercial seamen.

said, that although he concurred with the hon. member, he thought that the moment for going into the Navy Estimates was not the proper one for its discussion. The subject was one of such great importance as to deserve to be considered separately; and if the hon. member would fix a day, he should be happy to support his view of it.

said, that in submitting the Navy Estimates for the present year, it afforded him great satisfaction to be able to state, that there was a considerable reduction in the amount of expense, as compared with the last year. He could assure the committee, that the Admiralty had devoted its utmost attention to all the departments, connected with the navy, with the view to reduction wherever it was practicable. The result was, that a very considerable reduction had been made in many of the Civil Departments, and measures were in progress which would enable them to announce a still greater reduction in the ensuing year; but hon. members must be aware, that where many of those establishments had existed so long, and were so intimately connected with the management of the naval business, it was necessary to proceed with caution, lest, by ill-judged reduction, they might create a greater evil than that which they sought to remove. For himself and his hon. colleagues he would say, that they had bestowed the most diligent attention on every department in its most minute details; nor would their attention be remitted, until they should have brought each to the lowest scale of reduction, consistent with the maintenance of a naval force, sufficient for the exigences of the country. Notwithstanding that the force to be kept up during the present year was the same in numerical amount in several of the civil branches, there had been reductions which would diminish the expense this year upwards of 100,000l., as compared with the last.—It would now be his duty to go through the various estimates, and to call the attention of the committee to the items which had been altered, and the consequent increase of some and diminution of others, and to explain the reasons why those reductions now made had been effected, and what were those that were in progress. In the first place, the amount of force to be kept up was, as he had already stated, the same this year as the last. The circumstance which required a considerable naval force in the east of Europe, and which had last year rendered an increase of our naval force necessary, were still the same. In that quarter and in other stations abroad, it was necessary to the maintenance of the honour of the British flag, and to protect our commercial interests. The force employed for this purpose was as low as it could be for such an object, and not greater than that of other powers on similar service. It was necessary for him to explain the apparent increase which had been made in the rate of seamen's wages, which were in the estimates at 3s. per man per month higher than the last year. It would be in the recollection of those hon. members who had sat in the Finance Committee, that when the Comptroller of the Navy was examined before the committee, he stated that the amount for wages was lower than in 1827. The deficiency in wages in other years was made up in the account of stores—so much of "slops" being allowed to each, and charged against their wages. It occurred to him that it would simplify the accounts to have the whole amount of wages put under one head. Thus the amount appearing under the head of "stores" was considerably reduced, and a corresponding amount was added to the charge for wages; though there was, in fact, no real addition to the wages, the object of the change being to put each account in its most simple form. The amount of this apparent increase of 3s. per man per month for wages was 59,000l.; but the amount of the charge for stores was reduced in the same proportion. The next item was the charge for victualling the navy. That had increased, in consequence of the increased price of flour, and had created a necessity for adding 1s. per month per man. This, with the addition of the 3s. per head on the rate of wages, made this branch 78,000l. greater than it was in the last year, still by reductions in other branches, there would be a reduction on the whole of 117,000l. as compared with the last year. With respect to the public offices in London, there was no diminution, but some increase of expense. This would be seen in the vote for contingencies. There were many nautical surveys in progress in different parts of the world, and the engraving and publication of Charts, which had thus become necessary for the information of the public, had necessarily created a considerable expense. The committee were aware, that, by an act passed last year, the Board of Longitude was abolished. The expense of this Board consisted of the charge of 100l. a-year each for five commissioners. There was also 100l. a-year to the Astronomer Royal; there were likewise three gentlemen of eminent scientific acquirements who were engaged at 100l. a-year each. When the Board of Longitude was put down, the Admiralty thought it would be proper to retain the services of those gentlemen at their former salaries—to act as a council, whose advice might be resorted to on questions of science connected with the public service; and when he named the gentlemen whose services were thus engaged, the committee would admit that none stood higher in scientific attainments. The act limited the choice to members of the Council of the Royal Society, as that would afford the best chance of giving men fully qualified for the service required. The names of the gentlemen selected were Dr. Young, captain Sabine, and that eminent chemist Mr. Faraday. When the late President of the Royal Society was residing in this country he was in daily communication with the Admiralty on scientific matters. That advantage would be continued by the appointments of which he had just spoken. One of the gentlemen now employed, was engaged in making experiments in the manufacture of glass used in telescopes. Under these circumstances it was not supposed that the committee would object to so small a sum to retain the valuable services of these gentlemen. In the estimates of late years, the sum of 1,000l. had been voted to enable the Admiralty to give rewards to those who had made any useful discoveries, and to pay the expenses that might be required in making the experiments. These were usually superintended by the Board of Longitude, or the Council of the Royal Society; but in future that charge would chiefly devolve on the three gentlemen he had named.—The next subject to which he would advert was the Navy Pay-office. In consequence of recent defalcations which had occurred in that office, the serious attention of the Admiralty had been bestowed on it, with the view of placing it on such a footing as to prevent the facility of any defalcations in future; but the committee were aware that the duties of the office of paymaster of the navy were regulated by act of parliament, and any alterations which might be necessary for that purpose must be by legislative enactment, and a measure for that purpose would be submitted to the House in a short time. Some regulations would also he introduced, with respect to the civil establishment at Greenwich Hospital which would undergo a minute inquiry, with a view to prevent frauds similar to that which had been recently committed there; but this must also be done by legislative enactment. It was in contemplation to make some change with respect to the payment of pensions; which would be transferred to the office of the Treasurer of the Navy. In the Navy Pay-office it was proposed to make some reductions. There were at present in that office, besides the comptroller of the navy, with a salary of 2 000l. a year, two surveyors, and five commissioners, with 1,000l. a year each. It was intended to reduce the number of the whole to six. An alteration was also proposed with respect to the clerks, with a view to prevent the increase of superannuation allowances. To effect this it was intended to fill up vacancies as they occurred, from the list of supernumeraries, who would be perfectly satisfied with the increased pay, without being entitled to superannuations. By this means a gradual and effective reduction of charge would be created. The reduction of the number of the commissioners of the navy would require the authority of an act of parliament to give it effect: for, in consequence of the reduction, it would be necessary to bring in a bill similar to that brought in some years ago, when the number of the lords of the Admiralty was reduced, to enable the signature of two of the commissioners to have the same force which the signature of three of them had at present.—In the Victualling-office it was proposed to reduce one commissioner. It was impossible to carry the reduction further in this department, owing to the miscellaneous nature of the duties which it had to perform. It had to superintend the furnishing, not only of all provisions, but of all the medical stores used in the navy. It was therefore necessary to provide for the occasional absence, not only of the medical, but of the professional commissioners, who had to superintend these distinct departments. The board, as at present constituted, consisted of a chairman, deputy-chairman, and five commissioners, and their salaries had been reduced to 5,000l. The committee of finance had said, that a further reduction might be made in this department. It was easy to say so, but he must remind the committee, that in all reductions which related to such important branches of the public service, it was requisite to act with caution, lest, by making an inconsiderate reduction, a greater expenditure should ultimately be incurred by the public. He trusted, however, that before the navy estimates were submitted for consideration next year, he should be able to make such a reduction in this branch of them as would meet the cordial approbation of the committee.—The charge for wages to artificers and labourers employed in the yards at home was reduced this year, when compared with the charge of last, by 10,0001. The sum voted for this estimate last year was 490,000l.; the sum proposed to be voted this year was 480,000l. He had already stated, in accounting for the apparent increase in the charge for the wages of men afloat, that it was occasioned by the transfer to the head of wages of a part of the expenditure, which was before included under the head of stores. Though there was an apparent saving this year under the head of stores, to the amount of 90,000l., it was not to be forgotten, that 60,000l. of it was occasioned by its being transferred to the head of wages.—The next item was, the charge for pilotage, which was larger than it was last year. For the last six years, the sum voted had regularly been less than the expense incurred. The vote had generally been for 40,000l.; but the charge had always exceeded that sum. With the intention of making the vote approximate to the actual expenditure, it was now proposed to take 60,000l. upon this item.—On the remaining parts of the estimates he had only to remark, that there was very little difference in them from those of last year. There was a small increase in the medical estimate, arising from the increased price of provisions. There was, however, a reduction in the expense incurred for the Royal Naval College at Portsmouth. It was proposed last year, that the students should be called upon to pay a larger sum for their education, in order to meet the expenses of the college; and in consequence of that proposition, the sum demanded from each student had been increased. Previously to last sessions, seventy sons of naval officers were educated at the college. Of these, a part were educated gratuitously, whilst the remainder paid 70l. each. The number of students was now increased to eighty. Of this number, forty were to be the sons of officers, and the sum which they were to pay was to be proportional to the rank which their fathers held in the service. The remaining forty were to be the sons of civilians, and the sum which they were to pay was to be increased from 70l. to 1261. The Admiralty did not call upon such students as were in the college before the 1st of January last year to pay this sum; but they calculated that next year, when all the students would have to pay the sum fixed by the new regulation, the expenses of the college would not be greater than the sum now mentioned in the estimates.—Whilst he was upon this subject, there was one point to which he would call the attention of the committee. In order to afford improvement to naval officers in the scientific branches of their profession, the lords of the Admiralty had come to a determination, that the professor at the Royal Naval College should deliver lectures upon them, in the naval school of architecture, to all such officers as should think proper to attend them. No additional charge would be incurred by the public for this improvement. The naval officers who should think proper to avail themselves of it, would live at their own expense at Portsmouth during the time of the lectures, and would not be en titled to any remuneration for it from the public purse.—There was little alteration in the second branch of the estimates, which related to the half-pay, and to the superannuations granted to officers in the military line of the naval service, and to their widows and relatives. The vote to the widows of officers was this year increased; and he was sorry to say was likely to go on increasing. The restrictions which deprived widows of their pensions on their re-marriage had been taken off some years ago, in consequence of suggestions made and supported by that House, an alteration which had led to great increase in this vote, and especially in that part of it which depended on the pensions granted to the widows of the lower officers in the navy. It might be worth considering hereafter, whether the old restrictions ought not to be continued: at the same time he must state, that as the removal of them was forced upon the government, in spite of their remonstrances, it did not become the government spontaneously to renew them. The increase, he ought to state, was from 124,835l. to 129,393l. The third branch of the estimates, which related to the works of the Yards, was 80,000l. less this year than it was last. But before he entered into a detail of its different items, he would just remark, that it was the intention of government to place the widows fund under a different management from that under which it was placed at present. Great part of the 110,000l. which was to be voted for the widows' charity was only voted to make good the deficiency in the funds of the charity voted by the public, for the relief of the widows of commissioned and warrant officers in the royal navy. The deficiency which he had mentioned, was generally made good by placing a fictitious number of men on a ship's books, and by applying the pay of that fictitious number to make good any pensions which might accrue during the year to the widows of any officers who died on board of it. Besides this, there was a sum paid over by the navy agents, from the pay of each naval officer, to say nothing of a small sum of three-pence in the pound taken from the pay of the sailor to make good the same deficiency. Now, this was an awkward way of doing it; and he thought that a sum of money should be voted directly for that object, in order to check the growing expense, to which it subjected the country.—With respect to the works in the Yards, he had only to observe, that there had been a general diminution in the expense of every item in that branch of the expenditure. There was, however, one new charge in this third part of the estimates: he alluded to the charge of building an engine-house at Portsmouth. This house was required to repair the accidents which were often occurring in the boilers and engines of steam-boats. Great advantage would accrue to the public from the erection of it. At present, if any accident happened to the boilers, there were no means of repairing it, except by sending the steam-boat into the river, a circumstance which prevented its being so readily restored to the service as it might be, were the accident repaired on the spot, and which might at some time be extremely detrimental to the public service. To prevent such an occurrence, it was intended to build an engine-house at Portsmouth, for the purpose of repairing any accidental injury which might befal his majesty's steam-boats. The estimate for this engine-house was 7,600l. Though the sum wanted to complete the works at Sheerness was 156,000l., it was not intended to take any sum on that account this year. The works there were now out of danger; the docks, basins, and seawalls were sufficiently advanced to be safe against all attacks of waves and weather; and if an emergency should arise, the storehouses for the service of the yard might be run up in a very short time. It was not intended to run up at present the storehouses for the ordnance; and the money already voted for those works was quite sufficient to keep them in repair. The charge for the purchase of provisions for troops and garrisons on foreign stations was this year 275,000l., which was greater than it was last year, owing to the increased price of provisions. He trusted, however, that there would be a reduction in this item next year, as also in the expenses of the Transport Board, which had been considerably reduced already. He had now gone through the whole of the Navy Estimates, and he was happy to say that the charge of this year was less than the charge for last year by 117,000l. He would now move, "That thirty thousand men be employed for the Sea Service for thirteen lunar months from the 1st of January, 1829, including nine thousand Marines."

said, he could not find that satisfaction which many gentlemen appeared to experience, at hearing the magnificent promises in which the hon. member had indulged, respecting the reductions which the Lords of the Admiralty intended to make in the Navy Estimates in future. If he could credit those promises, it would be well; but he had now had some experience in parliament, and he saw that whilst every year ministers promised the country reduction after reduction, the country gained nothing but increase after increase of its expenses. He had therefore come to this conclusion, that promises he would avoid, and reduction he would prefer. He was not unreasonable in this respect, seeing, as he had, that the country had on every occasion been disappointed in the expectations which those promises had excited. Every year, when the estimates were brought forward, he had said that reductions ought to be made in them, and that greater reductions could be made in the navy estimates than in any others. That, too, was the result at which the Finance Committee had arrived after long and laborious inquiries, in which they were materially assisted by the officers connected with the naval departments, who gave their evidence with a plainness and an impartiality to which he would take that opportunity of doing justice. Every member of the Finance Committee would recollect that the impression made upon them by the evidence which they took was, that very great reduction could be made in this department of the public expenditure. He had complained of the members of the Finance Committee, and he thought they would now admit that he complained with justice—for thinking it unnecessary to make a report last session, recommending reductions in those estimates and for supposing that the presenting the evidence which they had taken, respecting their expediency, would have as great an effect upon ministers as the recommendations of their report. Reductions ought to have been made in the Pay-office, and in the Navy-office, but especially in the Dock-yards. He had heard it said, that the duke of Wellington intended to clear this board and that of its supernumeraries, and that he would get rid of all but the working bees from all the public offices. Judge, then, Of his surprise, at finding that there was to be no greater reduction in the navy estimates this year than one of 117,000l.; and that, too, as the hon. baronet had stated fairly enough, was made up of 40,000l. saved in stores, and of 80,000l. for works, which it was not intended to finish. He did not see any reason for spinning out the erection of public works for years, as was done with the Breakwater at Plymouth; the best plan was to go to the expense at once, which would prove a great saving to the public. With regard to the amount of our force, he would only observe that we had last year thirty thousand two hundred and fifty four men employed in the navy, and that it appeared from the evidence of sir G. Cockburn, that we ought not to have more than twenty thousand or twenty one thousand men, unless we were in a state of warfare. The vote now proposed would, if carried, compel the House to keep up the naval establishments for this year at an expense of 5,800,000l. He thought that a force of thirty thousand men was at present unnecessary, and that the navy was placed in a very awkward situation, owing to its having two thousand seven hundred men of the number voted for it employed in preventing smuggling, and seven hundred more employed in the packet service. He would reduce three thousand two hundred men on this score, and would find a force in another quarter to collect the revenue, and to navigate the packets for the Post-office. We had now nine hundred royal marines; but of this number five thousand eight hundred and thirty three were always employed on shore. If we could reduce the army to that amount, he should not object to keeping up such a force of marines. He would get rid of the number of marines who were so employed on shore, and he could thus reduce nine thousand men without at all crippling the effective force of the navy. We had also two thousand men acting as a sort of police at Lisbon. He did not know what occasion we had for them in Portugal, and he should like to learn, for we had been playing fast and loose with that country for some time past. If we were to place any reliance on the declarations of his Majesty's Speech, we were in a state of profound peace; and we could therefore dispense with a force of ten thousand men less than that which was now proposed, and could return to the number which we kept up in 1823; at which time his majesty promised us a still greater decrease. With respect to the other parts of our naval establishment, a greater reduction ought also to be made. He entreated the government to stop the manufacture of ships, because there might be a glut of ships as well as of any other article. A large portion of our ships had gone to decay during the peace, and yet we were proceeding to build more. He would not build ships for which we had no present want. He would suppose the tonnage of our navy ought to be 300,000 tons; and he did not think that it ought to be more. We could build that amount of tonnage at 30l. a ton, or for nine millions. Now, since the peace, we had expended more than twice that sum in building ships; to say nothing of what we had expended in repairs. The country had therefore been put to an expense as enormous as it was unnecessary. If we had built less ships, we should have had less to repair, and a fewer number to fall into decay. The wages paid to artificers and labourers in his majesty's yards at home amounted this year to 480,000l. The charge for timber, stores, and other materials for the building and repair of ships was 759,000l., exclusive of 120,000l. received for old naval stores: making in all a sum of 1,359,000l. actual expense incurred in 1828 for the manufacture of ships. Such an expenditure was altogether useless. We might save a million in this estimate without diminishing our navy too much. The cost of the yards at home this Near was 145,000l., that of the yards abroad 52,000l., and this added to the sum before mentioned formed an aggregate of 1,557,000l. Instead of an expenditure of this amount 230,000l. was the average cost of building and repairing our ships previous to the French war of 1793. He maintained that the expense of shipbuilding, &c. might have been reduced to that amount during the last eight or nine years, and a sufficient navy still kept up. As he had before said, a saving of more than a million might thus have been effected. The civil establishments connected with the navy, now cost upwards of 180,000l.; before the French war the expense seldom reached 60,000l. Here also there was ample room for reduction. The Navy Pay-office would admit of reduction. The business of it could be performed by eight or nine clerks, and a considerable saving might be effected in this way. He was convinced that the Navy-office might be dispensed with altogether: that and the Army Pay-office could be consolidated. The head of the department had stated before the Finance Committee, that of fifty two clerks employed in it, ten might be dispensed with. Had this been done? If not, where was the disposition to economy for which government claimed credit? The dock yards were on a scale which the state of the country did not warrant. It was admitted, that we did not want the number of men employed at present in them. Why then, retain such a number of men? Why keep up so many yards at an expense of 145,000l., when formerly the cost of this branch did not exceed 25,000l. It might be reduced by one half. According to the evidence of Mr. J. Barrow, before the Finance Committee, and it must be admitted he was a most competent and intelligent witness, the expense of superintendence in the king's yards was greatly above that of private establishments. Whilst 550,000l. was the whole amount paid for labour, a sum of 155,000l. was paid to clerks and superintendents, being nearly in the proportion of one to four. The victualling establishment was much too expensive. We had now arrived at a time when so heavy an expenditure as that of this department, amounting to 64,000l., should not be maintained. It ought to be converted into a store branch. There was not one article provided by the Victualling-board, which could not be provided by contract as good, and cheaper than at present. Government should cease to be the manufacturer of any one article that could be procured in the country in the ordinary manner. He thought it very hard that the navy should be mixed up with other branches of the public service, and all under the colour of naval expenditure. He would have every article placed under the proper account. We might thus reduce and weed the navy estimates, so as to diminish them by a million and a half or two millions sterling. He begged pardon for having troubled the House at so much length; but when he heard credit taken for reductions which had not been effected, and when expectations were held out that were not realized, he could not resist the disposition he felt to state the plain facts of the case, and deliver his candid opinion upon them. In doing so, he did not wish to say anything through or needless jealousy. He had no desire to bring groundless charges against his majesty's government. What he had said was dictated by a desire to save the public money.

said, he was quite at a loss to conjecture when the navy estimates would be low enough to obtain any approbation from the hon. member. The gross amount of the estimates this year was 5,878,000l. But deductions were to be made from this sum on account of superannuations, Greenwich Hospital, transports, &c. to the amount of 2,160,000,l. leaving a balance of only 3,718,000l. to defray all the expenses incidental to the navy. This included the cost of building and repairing ships, of pay, provisions, victualling, &c. The hon. member objected to the increased expense of the civil departments of the navy, as compared with the cost of those branches of the public service previous to 1793. But the hon. member should have taken into account the immense increase of business in those departments. With respect to the expense of superintendence, he was at a loss to imagine where Mr. Barrow had discovered the circumstances on which he founded his conclusions. He was acquainted with a respectable firm of ship-builders, in which salaries of 881l. per annum were paid to three foremen who superintended 140 working men. This was exclusive of the exertions of the two partners, who were themselves practical ship-builders. In the king's yards there were seven master shipwrights, besides masters, attendant storekeepers, timber and store receivers, timber converters, &c., receiving in wages 37,380l annually. The conclusion to which he had come was, that the superintendents in private yards were to the workmen in the proportion of one to twenty-four, while in the king's yards they were only as one to thirty-six. Mr. Barrow included the pay of clerks in his estimate of the cost of superintendence in his majesty's yards. Now he (sir B. Martin) omitted that item of expense altogether in his calculation, and for this reason, that the clerks in the dock-yards had to do with ships abroad as well as with naval expenses at home, and were necessary to the transactions constantly taking place in an establishment where there were thirty thousand seamen. As a reason for the increased amount payable on account of wages now, as compared with the sum paid for the same purpose in 1792, we should consider that the price of provisions had doubled since that period. This alone afforded a satisfactory reason why a larger sum than formerly should now be paid in wages and for stores.

said, it mattered not whether or not, as had been stated by the hon. and gallant member, the expenses of the navy (strictly speaking) were 3,800,000l., and the remaining 2,000,000l. was for other purposes. The question for the House to consider was—were these expenses necessary? could any part, and if so what portion, of them be diminished? Let the House look at the evidence taken before the Finance Committee in 1828, as regarded our naval establishments. It was so clear that no one could misunderstand it; and it was equally candid. From that evidence he had formed his opinion; which, founded as it was on the best authority, did not admit of a doubt. It appeared to him, that a great reduction ought to take place in the amount of men attached to the navy. In the present peaceful and settled state of things, why should we keep up a force of thirty thousand seamen, when twenty thousand were amply sufficient? If we were really in a tranquil state,—if we enjoyed not merely peace but a likelihood of its continuance,—we ought not to have such a number of seamen. If, as sir G. Cockburn said, when giving his evidence before the Finance Committee, twenty thousand seamen were sufficient in time of peace, and if, as the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department assured the House, we were in a state of profound peace, then we had ten thousand men too many in our navy.—It appeared to him, that a large reduction should be made in the public offices connected with the navy. The expense of the Navy Pay office ought to be diminished. A consolidation would be desirable in several departments. It was stated, that we had as many ships as could be required, and that the men in the yards were reduced to five days' work in the week. A reduction, and of a more decided nature than this, should have taken place long ago. Ships were built unnecessarily, and kept up at a large cost. He gave the gallant admiral full credit for a sincere desire to reduce our naval establishment, but was sure that the reductions had not kept pace with the gallant officer's wishes. He was aware it was often a difficult thing to effect reductions; but when pledges were made they ought to be fulfilled. It was difficult for persons in authority to make up their minds to get rid of men, although they might be superfluous. However, they ought to be discharged, and not kept up at a large expense to the country. He deprecated the practice of retaining shipwrights whom we might or might not happen to want years hence. Government could always command a supply of workmen from private yards, whenever their services should be required. Under such circumstances it was unnecessary to continue giving partial employment to men whom we did not require at the present moment, for the sake of securing their future services. More yards were also kept up than were at all necessary. There should be a considerable reduction in the number. He was now speaking according to the evidence of the best-informed persons. Ships we had in abundance; and when the large ships at present on the stocks were finished, there should be a reduction in stores and other things. We should also reduce the number of men employed in the yards. He anticipated that next year there would be large and extensive reductions in the naval department. With respect to the proportion existing in the king's yards, between the persons engaged in superintendence and those employed in the labouring department, he could not suppose the gallant admiral to be correct. Mr. Barrow, who gave evidence upon that point, was no inadequate authority; and the result of his testimony was, that we had a super-abundance of overseers and directors in our yards, not only as compared with private yards, but in comparison with other nations. The irresistible conclusion from this gentleman's evidence was, that the cost of superintendence in his majesty's yards was much larger than it ought to be, and that a great saving might be made, in that as well as in other branches of the public service. If the Finance Committee had sat this year and reported with regard to the navy, he had no doubt it would have recommended a larger reduction in it, than in any other department.

said, that as his evidence had been alluded to, and as several members of the Finance Committee were present, he felt desirous of making an observation or two with respect to what he had stated last year, when examined before the committee. It was with great reluctance, and under a feeling of considerable difficulty, that he had given any opinion as to what would be a proper naval establishment for this country to maintain in time of peace. It was only on condition that he should be allowed to consider the state of peace as being without any chance of interruption, and that there were no piracies to be suppressed, in short, nothing to endanger the public tranquillity or to call for naval exertion, it was only upon these provisos, that, in obedience to what appeared to be the express wish of the committee, he had stated what might be sufficient to keep up the appearance of an effective force in foreign stations. The establishment in the West Indies had been reduced, and the admiral removed off that station, when immediately a complaint was made by the merchants, that the trade of this country was endangered by daring pirates in those seas, which rendered it necessary that the force should be re-established. It was said that there was no necessity for us as a nation to keep the peace of the sea; yet all must feel it was highly beneficial to British trade to do so, and that we must thereby be gainers in the end. By the reduction of the British force off Lisbon, it was intended and expected we should have been able to meet in part the wishes of the advocates of further retrenchment; but that was found inexpedient, because the force off Lisbon was found requisite in the Mediterranean Sea, where two powerful fleets, those of France and Russia, continued to cruise. That the protection of our trade there required an adequate force, no man would deny. All who felt the advantages of peace should recollect, that though we were now at peace with the whole of Europe, the best way to ensure its continuance was to be prepared for war. It was therefore advisable to keep the number of our ships up, lest at the breaking out of a war the enemy should have the start of us. Notwithstanding his deference for the recommendation of the Finance Committee, he would assure their chairman, that we had not a single ship now more than we wanted. In fact, if war broke out, there were not enough either of frigates or of smaller vessels of war. He agreed with the committee, that the number of superintendents, both in the dock-yards and the department in London, was too great. These situations had been narrowly inspected; and though it could not be done in a moment, he pledged himself that a reduction was in contemplation and should be effected. He must again observe that the marines were not too many. They were a most desirable force, And very difficult to raise on a sudden. Besides, they were at present employed on shore, on garrison duty, and so far rendered regular troops of the line unnecessary, to that amount of force. The principal port for fitting out in future was to be Sheerness, to which place the commissioner was to be removed from Chatham; which port, with that of Woolwich, was to be confined to building vessels of war.

said, he could not, after even what had been said, conceive that there existed a necessity for so great a naval force as that now proposed to be kept up; more especially in the present pacific aspect of our foreign relations.

thought, that a great deal of the expense of the Victualling Office might be got rid of, by permitting the stores to be supplied by contract.

wished to call the attention of the Committee to the business which was actually transacted by the Navy Board, and to the excellent mode of getting through that business. The Navy Board might at present be said to be divided into three departments; the manufacturing, which applied to the building of the ships; the commercial, which applied to the providing stores; and the general accounts. With respect to the estimates, he had at first been somewhat disappointed that there had been no greater reduction; but the right hon. baronet had so fully shewn that, under the present circumstances, it was impossible to make any change, that he did not know that any thing further could at present be said on the subject.

said, that with respect to the amount of the actual force of the navy, the explanations which the Finance Committee had received, and those which had just been given by the right hon. baronet were so satisfactory, that his desire was to see the same extent of force, under the present circumstances, kept up. At the same time, he felt that the naval, like the military and every other establishment, must depend on the means of the country; otherwise it would constitute its weakness instead of its strength. The Finance Committee, it would be remembered, had been appointed under circumstances of financial embarrassment, and therefore it was obliged, either to recommend a reduction in the expenditure, or the imposition of new taxes; but still, looking at the strong European powers which surrounded England, it did appear to him that it would be inviting aggression, if this country did not shew that she was prepared for art enemy. It was also to be remembered, that, since the year 1793, an entirely new naval power, that of America, had sprung up, and that it was a power which, though small in number, was, in his opinion, more to be watched than any other power in the world. To ensure peace and its concomitant blessings it was necessary to make, even during peace, some sacrifices of a pecuniary nature; so as to be able to shew to other countries that we were prepared in case of aggression for active warfare. He felt, however, that there was still considerable room for improvement in the naval departments. He believed government sincere in its assurances, that it was desirous of carrying into effect the recommendation of the Finance Committee; and he was happy to think that it had fallen into such competent hands. The great evil of the system, and the cause of such extravagant estimates being produced of late years, was to be found in the heavy yearly charge of the dead-weight of this service; which, combined with that of the army, amounted to between five and six millions a year. If the part absorbed by the dead-weight from the navy estimates were abstracted altogether, he believed every calculator would be of opinion, that the charge was extremely moderate for the yearly maintenance of so great a naval force as we had on foot. He looked forward confidently to the intended revision of the expenditure of the public money for such an improvement in the keeping of them as would provide a check against defalcations like that lately brought to light at Greenwich.

said, he could not let that opportunity pass over without remarking upon the unfair application that hon. members made of the phrase "dead-weight." That phrase was used to bring the system of half-pay into disfavour with the public. This was as unjust as it was impolitic; for the public service, in the first place, required efficient officers: to provide efficient officers it was necessary to have a system of promotion; which promotion necessarily created a demand for young officers. In the next place, it was not just to object to the half-pay of old officers, because the service required a succession of young ones. Surely those who had spent their lives in the service of their country were entitled, in the evening of their days, to an honourable allowance or pay for those services. Honourable members, however, seemed to think otherwise, as if old officers were not to be thought of when their services were no longer available or required. It reminded him of the saying—

"When sailors are wanting, we'll give them bread and beer;

But now the French are beaten, there's nothing more to fear."

He trusted that such would never be the system pursued in this country; for not only gratitude for past services, but a necessary provision for future services, required the present system of half-pay and promotion of naval officers.

said, he did not object to the half-pay of old officers who had seen service, but of young ones who could have had no opportunity of earning a permanent reward from the country. As to the term "dead-weight," it originated with ministers, and was held up by the present lord Goderich, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, as a nostrum against all the abuses of the half-pay system.

The several resolutions, after some further conversation, were agreed to; and the House resumed.