rose to present a Petition from nearly three hundred junior members of the University of Oxford, who were Bachelors of Art and Under-graduates. The Petition prayed that no further concessions might be granted to the Roman Catholics. He felt much gratification in being able to communicate to the House the independent feeling which animated this distinguished body of men, and he trusted their prayer would be attended to. The petitioners stated, that they were impressed with a sense of the great danger to which the constitution, as established in 1688, would be exposed, by any alteration of those laws which excluded persons professing the doctrine of the Church of Rome from the possession of political power.

wished to ask the noble marquis how many individuals there were belonging to the body of bachelors of art and under-graduates, of which the three hundred who signed the present petition were part?

was not prepared to answer the question.

believed that the number of bachelors of art and under-graduates at Oxford amounted to about three thousand, and that the majority were strongly in favour of Catholic emancipation.

believed, that his learned friend had not over-rated the number of the bachelors of art and under-graduates; but when he stated, that that body were notoriously the friends of Catholic emancipation, he must beg leave to doubt the statement. Where was the proof of it? Of their hostility to it there was proof on the table; namely, the petition just presented by the noble marquis; and that was much better than the bare assertion of the learned gentleman.

presented a similar petition from Sheffield and the vicinity. The hon. member stated, that the petition was signed by upwards of thirty thousand persons, of whom very few were under the age of twenty-one. It was unnecessary for him to state that his sentiments were entirely in concurrence with the prayer of the petition.

said, that by the last census, the number of inhabitants in Sheffield was taken at fifty thousand.

reminded the hon. member, that he had stated the petition proceeded from Sheffield and its neighbourhood.

said, that the petition had been got up by a committee composed of Methodist preachers and clergymen of the Established Church. A public meeting had been held in Sheffield, at which a petition was carried in favour of emancipation. That petition had obtained about seven thousand signatures. The petition now presented had been hawked about for signatures; and had been signed by woman, children, prisoners in the gaol, and vagrant mendicants.

begged leave to say, that the petition was agreed to at a public meeting, although he would allow it was not held in the open air, but in the town-hall., His hon. colleague had stated, that the prisoners in gaol had signed the petition. The fact was this—the debtors in the gaol expressed a desire to sign the petition. It was sent to them for that purpose, and they signed it; but on consideration their names were withdrawn. He must say, that there had of late been manifested on the part of some honourable members opposite, a most extraordinary disposition to cry clown petitions, to undervalue their importance, and to show that they did not represent the feelings of the people of England. He would never consent to hear any petition which he believed to represent the conscientious and unbiassed opinions of the people of England on any subject to be cried down; which he conceived to be the object of his hon. colleague's speech.

said, he was not disposed to cry down any petitions, least of all one which proceeded from so respectable a body as those who had signed that now before the House. He merely rose to put the hon. member right with respect to one or two circumstances which, in his great zeal, appeared to have escaped his recollection. The petition was certainly most respectably signed; but it originated in a different manner from the one which he had presented from the same town last week. The meeting at which the present petition originated certainly was not a public one. His knowledge of the fact was derived from a person who went to the meeting for the purpose of opposing the proceedings, but was told that no one who did not intend to support the petition would be allowed to take part in the meeting. That appeared to constitute the difference between a public and a private meeting.

presented a similar petition from the city of Exeter. The hon. member stated that, though he felt it his duty to present these petitions, he should come to the consideration of the great question to which they referred with a disposition to give effect to the recommendation of his majesty.

presented a similar petition from Tamworth. The hon. member said, that in the latter part of the prayer of the petition he cordially concurred; but he must express his conviction that the effect of the measures about to be introduced by his majesty's government would be, not to destroy, but to preserve the Protestant constitution. Many respectable inhabitants of Tamworth had abstained from signing the petition; and he had received letters from some of his constituents, stating that they were disposed to place implicit confidence in parliament, and would not believe that government would propose any measure which would endanger the constitution.

presented several petitions against any further concessions to the Roman Catholics, which the House, he said, would find well worthy of its attention, emanating as they did from most respectable bodies of his constituents. One of these petitions set forth, that at this crisis it was the duty of every Englishman to lift up his voice in defence of our dearest privileges. Another stated, that the petitioners yielded to none in real Christian charity and toleration, but declared their conviction, that the Catholics were already in possession of the uninterrupted exercise of their religion, and of all the other privileges that they could by possibility desire. Another petition viewed with fear and trembling every attempt to introduce members of the church of Rome (a church so intolerant to all others) into our Protestant constitution. Another hoped that that House would firmly persevere in resisting the claims of the Catholics, as the only means of securing the throne to the Protestant monarch, and their religion to the petitioners. Another stated that the petitioners had been thrown into the greatest state of alarm by the report that the Roman Catholics were about to be admitted into the legislature and the government of the country. All these petitions came from persons of real John Bull feeling; and, as an agriculturist, he would say, that their desire was to have the real British breed, and no cross one from the Popish.

presented similar petitions from Brixham, Clifton, Dartmouth, and other districts of the county of Devon. All these petitions, with the exception of that from Brixham, had been got up before the commencement of the present session, that from Brixham had grown out of the change which had taken place in the sentiments of his majesty's government. The stone on which king William stepped when he landed in this country was still preserved at Brixham. It was not extraordinary, therefore, that the inhabitants of that town should feel that they had an hereditary interest in the constitution secured by the glorious revolution.

bore testimony to the respectability of the petitioners, and fully concurring in the sentiments expressed by them, felt it his duty to give to their petition his warmest support.

presented similar petitions from Brookborough, and from Belnalach, in the county of Fermanagh. He expected, in a few days, to lay before the House one of great magnitude, containing the unanimous voice of the Protestant inhabitants of that county. He could assure the House, that the Protestants of the north of Ireland would not tamely submit to what, if the proposed measure passed, would be Popish ascendancy. Their forefathers suffered severely in the year 1641; and during the Popish reign of James the Second, they fought, and were particularly instrumental in establishing that constitution which placed the house of Brunswick on the throne of these realms. They were again willing to fight, and he had no doubt would be again victorious; notwithstanding the disparity of numbers and the encouragement that had been given to Popery in Ireland. There was one right hon. member of his majesty's government whom they particularly looked up to for protection and support; but their confidence in him was destroyed. They were in despair;—he might say desperate.

presented a similar petition from the city of Gloucester and its environs; the petition was numerously and respectably signed. It would be found impossible to suppress the spirit and enthusiasm in which that petition had originated, and which so universally prevailed. So anxious were the inhabitants to sign it, that, in the course of two days, one thousand three hundred signatures were attached to it, and the number was now upwards of two thousand five hundred.

said, he rose to present a petition from a place which, though second to none in commercial and manufacturing importance, had nevertheless no representatives in that House. The petition was from the inhabitants of Manchester, Salford, and their vicinity. It was signed by twenty-two thousand of the inhabitants, including the magistrates, the warden, and fifty clergymen; and the signatures were so easily obtained, that people crowded to sign. When an opportunity was taken of sending the petition for signatures to the different streets, they found the people ready to sign, almost without being solicited [a laugh]. Gentlemen need not quibble upon the word "almost," for it was not to be supposed that persons would sign until they were told what was the nature of the petition. He would state with confidence that this petition, of all those which had ever been presented to that House, was one of the most regular, with respect to the way it was got up and signed, and might serve as a pattern to all petitions from large towns in future; for it contained not only the names of the parties, but their professions, and the name of the street, and the number of the house in which they resided. He had closely examined the names contained in five of the hundred and thirteen sheets of signatures, and he did not see one which he could suppose to be that of a female [a laugh]. At the same time he must add, that he saw no objection to the signatures of females to such petitions; for they were as much interested in this important subject as the other sex. The petition contained the unequivocal opinions of four-fifths of the population of Manchester and its neighbourhood; and whatever might be said of the probability of getting a counter-petition, he would assert that it would be impossible to get up such a petition with one-third of the number of signatures appended to that which he now presented. The petitioners stated, that on several recent occasions the power of the Catholic priests in Ireland over their deluded congregations had been exercised in a manner highly prejudicial to the constitutional interests of the country; and they added, that if power were given to the Roman Catholics, it could not be exercised with safety to the state. They also complained of the great mischiefs created by the Catholic Association, and they prayed that it might be so put down, as that it could never again raise its head to the injury of the country. They also prayed that no further political power might be granted to the Catholics. He had been informed, that, in another place, it had been stated, that the signatures to this petition had been swelled by those of boys from charity-schools and other places, but he had no hesitation in saying that such a statement was without foundation.

said, he had no wish to detract from the merit of any petition respectfully drawn up, from whatever quarter it might come, and certainly none to lessen the just weight of that before the House; but when the gallant general claimed for it an authority to which it was not entitled, he felt it necessary to say a few words, and give to the House such information as he possessed with respect to it. Though the petition was signed by twenty-two thousand persons, he could state that it did not represent the opinions of the educated portion of the inhabitants of Manchester, nor of the majority of the manufacturing population. This petition, which it was said all were so anxious to sign, was the elaborate production of more than a quarter of a year. A requisition was signed for it on the 22nd of November last, to which were affixed the names of five hundred and six laymen and forty-four of the clergy. It pointed out what it described would be the injurious effects of admitting the Catholics to further political power, and it called on those who entertained similar views to meet on a certain day to deliver their sentiments on that subject. This requisition was met by a counter-declaration, signed by four hundred and thirty-one of the most respectable inhabitants of Manchester, whether considered with reference to property, intelligence, or influence; and though he admitted that amongst the five hundred and six individuals and the forty-four clergy there were some highly respectable names, yet there were others, and a large portion too, whom he had never heard of before, and who, he believed, were equally unknown to those who were much better acquainted with Manchester than he was. This, however, he could state with confidence,—that the signatures to the requisition bore no comparison, in point of property, intelligence, or influence, to those appended to the counter-declaration; and he was certain that the petitioners themselves were of the same opinion, for the four hundred and thirty-one names appended to that declaration represented property to the amount of four millions of money. The gentlemen who signed that declaration having ascertained that the great majority of the property and influence of the town, and a very large portion, if not the majority, even of the working classes, were in favour of the view they took of the question, wished to take no step in the way of petitioning, but were satisfied to leave the whole to the wisdom of parliament; and in this they were justified by what took place at the public meeting in 1825, when they beat their opponents, five to one, on this very question. That the feeling in favour of concession had increased since then, there could be no doubt; for many who were at that time adverse to it were now its advocates, and many others who had also been opposed to it were at present neutral. The meeting called for by the requisition took place on the 24th November, and great pains were taken to prevent the attendance of any but those who were of the same opinion as the requisitionists. For this purpose police-officers were stationed at the doors; but notwithstanding all the pains taken, the meeting did not consist of more than five hundred or six hundred, and the thing went off in the most vapid and spiritless manner. The only thing which gave it animation for a time, was the attempt of a gentleman to vindicate the Catholics from some aspersions which had been cast upon them. When this gentleman rose, the chairman of the meeting—and here he might state, that none of the local authorities would preside, as not approving of the meeting, but the chairman—asked him, whether he intended to vote for the motion then before them, and on being answered that he did not, he declared that he would not hear him. Another gentleman rose and said, that if there were any persons present who did not approve of the object of the meeting, they ought to have the good manners to be silent. To this it was replied, that it was a mere farce to have a public meeting where all must be of one opinion, and where those who might express a different opinion were prevented from attending by the intervention of police-officers. The gallant general had laid some stress on the petition being signed by the magistracy of Manchester. But the magistracy of that town were constituted differently from that of other places, and care was taken to exclude those who were not of one political opinion. This was by no means creditable, and created a suspicion that the opinions of those who were appointed might lead, in many cases, to defeat the ends of justice. But to come back to the petition: he could state that it was sent about from house to house for signatures. The churchwardens of Manchester were in communication with those of other places for the purpose of getting all the signatures they could. Evidence had been given to him, that it was taken to vestries for the purpose of getting signatures, and in one instance it was proposed to send it to a school where there were two hundred children, in order that they might sign it; but some man of sense who heard the proposition objected, and it was not sent. On another occasion it was proposed, that the paupers of a workhouse should be permitted to sign it; but this also was opposed by some intelligent person present, and was given up. When he mentioned this circumstance, he thought it was not unfair to infer, that other instances had occurred where the same good sense did not prevail, and that parties were asked to swell the number of signatures who ought not to have been allowed to sign. It was also stated to him, that the petition had been hawked about to public-houses, and that persons in a state of intoxication were permitted to sign it. It was also taken to the neighbourhood of Methodist chapels, and other public places, and all who came from the chapels were asked to sign. In like manner copies were sent to some of the toll-bars, and the carters as they passed were requested to sign, and persons were ready to sign for such of them as could not write. These circumstances would show the value of a large portion of the signatures, and how far the petition had a claim to be called that of the inhabitants of Manchester and its neighbourhood. He did not know how far the word "neighbourhood" was meant to extend; but there were thirty townships in the parish of Manchester, with an adult population of two hundred and fifty thousand. The gallant general had stated, that the petition contained the sentiments of four-fifths of the population; but how he could make out that the signatures to this petition were four fifths of that population, he was at a loss to know. He believed, too, that they had not confined themselves, in their search after signatures, to the district within which those two hundred and fifty thousand persons were to be found; for in casting his eye over the petition, he found the name of an individual who described himself as an inhabitant of Middleton. Now Middleton was six or seven miles distant from Manchester. You might as well go to Barnet to beat up for signatures to a petition professing to be the petition of the city of London, as go to Middleton for signatures to a petition professing to be the petition of the town of Manchester. Let the House now consider how far this petition conveyed the sense of the educated, the intelligent, and the wealthy part of the inhabitants of the town of Manchester. There were two places in the town in which the respectable inhabitants were accustomed to assemble. One of them was called the Portico, a news-room and library, to which there were four thousand subscribers. This petition was sent there; and during the period of its laying there, it received twelve or twenty-four signatures, he did not know exactly which. It was also sent to the Exchange, a place which the respectable merchants of Manchester were in the habits of frequenting. It was left there for several days. It received about five or six signatures a-day; but was soon removed when it was found that no more signatures could be got from the one thousand five hundred subscribers who belonged to that room. He would say, upon this evidence, that the petition was not the petition of the educated and intelligent portion of the inhabitants of Manchester. Let him compare this petition with the petition which had come from Manchester in the year 1825. That petition lay for signature thirteen days, and received in that time twenty-eight thousand signatures. This petition lay for signature thirteen weeks, and received in that time only twenty-two thousand signatures. This was a proof of what the feelings of the people were in Manchester and its vicinity. Let him look at the manner in which the two petitions had been signed by the members of the liberal professions. The petition which emanated from the requisition which had been signed by the five hundred and six lay persons, was signed by three physicians. The other petition was signed by seven. He could have wished that the same spirit of liberality had been visible in the clergy; but they had acted a very different part. He thought that the House ought to lament the part which had been taken by the clergy on this occasion. What must be thought of the church, if they, its ministers, with all its ample endowments in their possession, confessed that they could not defend it effectually from encroachment, unless the professors of the Roman Catholic religion were excluded from seats of parliament? The clergy of the three dissenting congregations in Manchester had expressed in their petition their confidence in the wisdom of parliament and of the government, and requested the House to carry into effect the measures proposed to it for the advancement of religious liberty. Such a petition did them the highest honour. Perhaps the House would permit him to mention a circumstance which struck him as equally curious and interesting. The same attempts which were now making to excite a popular clamour against the measure, had been made more than a century ago, when the Union with Scotland was proposed; and it might be amusing to the House to know that one of the most active agents in raising that clamour was the then earl of Nottingham. It would seem as if a dread of the consequences of innovation had descended, by inheritance, from the earl of Nottingham of that day to the earl of Nottingham of this. The earl of Nottingham of that day was afraid that destruction would arise to the constitution from the Union with Scotland, just as the earl of Nottingham of this day was afraid of destruction arising to it from the proposed measures of concession to the Roman Catholics. He would read the words used by the earl of Nottingham, of 1706, on the subject of the Union with Scotland, that great measure, on the policy of which there was at present no diversity of opinion; and he had no doubt that when this question was carried, as he hoped and trusted it would be, it would receive the same unanimous approbation from posterity. Nay, more, he believed that the same applause would be given by posterity to those statesmen who were now anxious to settle the Catholic question, as was given at present to those who brought about the Union with Scotland. The words of the then earl of Nottingham were as follows:—"If this Union do pass, as I have no reason to doubt but it will most certainly, I may with as much reason, and as justly, affirm, that I have outlived all the laws and the very constitution of England; and I conclude with a prayer to God, to avert the dire effects which may probably ensue from such an incorporating Union."^* Notwithstanding these dreadful predictions, the constitution of England still existed; and he had no doubt it would continue to exist, after the measure of emancipation was carried, and that it would even derive additional strength from so desirable a consummation.

^*See Parliamentary History of England, vol. vi. P. 569.

presented a similar petition from Leicester. On former occasions, he said, he had always felt it his duty to oppose these concessions, and he felt it to be equally his duty to oppose them now. Though hitherto he had supported the government, he found it quite impossible to support it under the present instance. Whenever the measure of concession was brought forward, he should feel himself bound to give it his most strenuous opposition.

presented a similar petition from Maldon, in the hundred of Dengie, in the county of Essex.

said, that though this petition came from the hundred of Dengie, which contained a population of six thousand souls, it could not boast of more than one hundred and fifty signatures. Some years ago, the inhabitants of that district were remarkable for the zeal with which they upheld the cause of what was called Protestant ascendancy. He had therefore stated the number of signatures attached to this petition, in order to show that a great alteration had recently taken place in the opinions of the population in that part of the country upon this all-important question. He was quite sure, from this and other signs of the times, that the more this question was considered by the people, the more would the feeling of liberality be extended. As he had stated that the number of signatures to this petition was but few, he felt it right to add, that it was not owing to any lack of zeal. After it had lain for some time at the town-hall for signature, it had been carried round the town by the bellman, who had told the different individuals whom he asked to sign it, that they could not refuse, if they wished to keep the pope out of England. He mentioned this to show the mode in which signatures had been obtained, and the weight which ought to be attached to them. Some of the persons who had signed this petition were persons of great respectability: others, who could not write, had put their marks to it. He did not object to this practice; for he thought that every person ought to have an opportunity of expressing his opinions.

presented a petition from Alton, in the county of Southampton, in favour of further concessions to the Roman Catholics. The petitioners were short and decisive in their prayer, and did not trouble their heads about security; being of opi- nion, that there was no need of security where there was no danger, and that the act of concession would be the best security that could be devised for the Protestant establishment in Church and State.

said, that he had a petition to present against further concessions to the Roman Catholics. It came from the clergy of London, who had been incorporated under the style and title of the "President and Fellows of Sion College." He had frequently had the honour of being made the medium of communicating the sentiments of this learned and reverend body, to the House; and he had received peculiar satisfaction from having been made so, in consequence of the mild and temperate manner in which they always offered their opinions to parliament. He was one of those who thought it was the peculiar duty of the clergy of the church of England to come forward and to express their opinions, as to the effects of the measure about to be proposed, and that it was the duty of the House to pay serious attention to their opinions when expressed. They stated, that when they reflected upon the blessings which the country had enjoyed under a constitution essentially Protestant, they could not contemplate without alarm the proposed abrogation of the laws which prevented Roman Catholics from sitting in parliament. The hon. member then read the petition at length to the House. On concluding it, he said, that during the ten years he had had the honour of a seat in that House, he felt it to be his duty, whenever the subject of concessions to the Catholics had been before the House, to give it his steady opposition. He had done so from the most disinterested and conscientious feeling's; but he was now free to confess, that the subject was brought before that House under circumstances very different from any which had hitherto been witnessed. We found Ireland in a state of agitation from one end of it to the other, and we were recommended, in the Speech from the throne, to take its situation into our consideration. The measure of concession, too, came before them recommended by an unanimous government; and it would ill become him, or indeed any other representative of the people, to refuse, under such circumstances, to apply himself calmly and temperately to the consideration of the evils which afflicted that country. He should, therefore, not join in denouncing a measure not yet known to the House, and of the enactments of which every body was ignorant. On the contrary, he would express his readiness to believe that the measure was recommended from a feeling of its necessity by the government. He had hitherto had confidence in his majesty's ministers, and he would not withdraw that confidence from them until he had better reason for doing so than the proposed measure seemed to afford.

said, it was with much pleasure he had to present a petition from the dean and guild, councillors and brethren of the corporation of the royal burgh of Arbroath, in favour of the Catholic claims. He was anxious to make a few remarks on this petition, as, in the early part of the session, an hon. gentleman had represented the opinion of the people of Scotland as very different from what it really was. Now, he knew, on good authority, that a great change had taken place in their opinions, and that by far the majority of the people of Scotland were in favour of the removal of all civil disabilities on account of religious opinions.

said, he would take that opportunity of calling the attention of the chancellor of the Exchequer to a tax, or rather the repeal of a drawback, which was imposed on Ireland during the last session. He meant the repeal of the drawback on Window Glass exported from England to Ireland. He found no fault with this tax, so far as the higher orders were concerned; nor for those who made use of the better description of glass: but the effects of the tax had been injurious to the lower orders, to an extent little anticipated by those who introduced the measure. He was aware of the miserable description of hovels in which the Irish had dwelt heretofore, frequently four mud walls, with a hole made through the wall to admit light. In the general improvement, however, an improvement was gradually taking place in this respect. The labourer was attaining a better description of dress, and the luxury of a single window. To this improvement the right hon. gentleman had effectually put a stop. The tax had put it out of the power of the lower classes to purchase glass, the price of which had been raised to double what it had been. He implored the right hon. gentleman to give some relief to the lower classes in this respect; especially as it might be dons without any material injury to the revenue. As one method, he should suggest, that an allowance should be made to the manufacturer on the sale of the lowest description of glass, in sizes of less than one square foot. He would not take up the time of the House by urging the effect which cleanliness must have on the moral character of the people; but he trusted the right hon. gentleman would afford this small relief to the miserable peasant of Ireland.

said, he had no reason to suppose that the prices had risen so much, and that he could afford no hope of a reduction, owing to the frauds which had been committed in former instances. He could not see how this duty, which was only 3l. 13s. on the hundred weight of glass, could operate as such a grievance.

said, that the price of common glass had risen from between 2l. and 3l. to 6l. or 7l.

said, that in introducing the Ordnance Estimates, he should not trespass long upon the committee, as he knew his right hon. friend near him would supply any deficiency on his part, and give such explanations as might be called for in the course of the discussion. It was his duty, however, as there would appear in this year's Estimates, a large increase under the head of Ordnance, to explain how this increase arose; which he hoped he should be able to do satisfactorily, without committing the framers of those estimates in any departure from those principles of economy which the government had sanctioned and enforced in the different public departments. The increase on the votes for the Ordnance services in the present year amounted to 125,897l. The sum last year was 1,597,196l., and the vote called for this year would be 1,723,003l. Before he entered into a comparison between these votes, he would just remark that he meant to leave out of the account a sum of 6,115l. for the estimate of the pay and allowances of the five companies of the royal staff corps transferred to the Ordnance from the army Estimates, for six months, commencing from the 25th of June, 1829. It had formed no part of the former charge, and could not fairly enter into the comparison between this year and the last. He should, therefore, leave it entirely out of the question, and consider the vote for this year 125,897l. more than it was last year. The Board of Ordnance had been able to make credits to the extent of 49,150l. less this year than the last. These credits arose from the rent of building land in Kent, and the sale of stores. Large quantities of stores used to be kept, and from time to time considerable sales of these had been made, the produce of which had gone in diminution of the sum to be asked from parliament. Deducting this sum from the actual increase apparent on the Estimates, there would remain an increase of expenditure this year to the amount of 76,747l. In stating this increase to the committee, he begged to remind those honourable members who had given their attention to the Estimates of this department, and who belonged to the Finance Committee, or who had read the report with regard to it, that, in that document, they would find the evidence of his right hon. friend, the Secretary at War, who, speaking on the subject of the works, stated, that "to diminish the expenditure by 75,000l. or 100,000l. this department had been reduced, in 1827, as low as it could possibly be;" and his right hon. friend afterwards explained, that "there must be a surplus, because military orders were peremptory;" adding, that, "according to the evidence before the committee, this reduction would be no saving." His hon. friend, sir George Clerk, also stated, that he was perfectly aware of the fact that, "when the proposition was made, the Inspector-general protested that it was impracticable, unless it was perfectly understood that it was intended only as an experiment for one year." The consequence of this was an increase, under the head of works and fortifications, to the amount of 69,000l.; to which, adding the increase of 14,000l. for the purchase of stores, the general increase was accounted for. By turning to the same evidence, honourable members would see, on the same authority, that it was impossible for the business of the department to go on with so small a vote for stores as had hitherto sufficed; and for the same reason, namely, because formerly the board was able to deduct sums for the sale of stores, and come to this House and ask for much smaller votes on account of that surplus. The stock would, for the future, be adjusted to the real demand every year. As there was an increase of 69,000l. for works, 14,000l. more for stores, and in other items 83,000l. and as the excess of expenditure altogether was only 125,897l., it was obvious, that there must be altogether on the other heads of the estimates, a diminution to the amount of 30,000l. It was satisfactory to state, that this diminution was chiefly in the establishment of the Ordnance: it was especially in the Civil Establishment, in the Departments at Woolwich, in the Medical Establishment, and in the Royal Military Academy, that reductions had taken place. He ought to remark, that for that very reason, the considering the reduction in the charge for the artillery, which had been forced on the Ordnance Establishment in 1828, it would be unfair to take that year in comparison with the present year. The only fair mode would be, to compare these estimates with an average of the three years prior to 1828, and then it would be, proved that there was a diminution of 20,000l. The average expense of the artillery during those three years was 914,214l., and the expense for the year 1829 would be 893,900l., which was a diminution, as he had before stated, of 20,000l. On dividing the Estimates of that year into the two heads of effective and non-effective, it would appear that on the effective there was a decrease of 74,000l.; instead of which there was, on the other hand, an increase on the non effective head, of about 76,000l. He would only observe, that the decrease was on the effective, and not on the non-effective, which was beyond the control of the Ordnance Department; for when once the superannuation was fixed, it remained during the life of the party: and these charges frequently resulted from the very reductions made in the establishments, with the view of decreasing the public expenditure. He did not doubt that many honourable members would be somewhat perplexed in examining these estimates, as the changes in the mode of compiling them had been considerable, with the view of bringing under the distinct heads all the proper expenses of each. Several sums that used to be voted in what were called the Supplementary Estimates, were now included in the items to which they properly belonged. A great number of clerks' salaries had been voted formerly under the head of Barracks, Military Stores, and the Superannuation Establishments. The whole charge of the Civil Establishment would now be borne under that head. In comparing the nominal items for the Pall-Mall office this year with the nominal items of last year, the present estimates would appear much greater than they recently were. On the whole the expense of the Civil Establishment last year was 483,531l., and the vote now proposed would be 500,600l.; but it should be remembered, that under this head the charges for the clerks were borne, which in 1828 was supplied from a different source. If to 483,500l. were added this increase of 24,000l. the vote for that year would amount to 507,500l.; from which deducting the present vote of 500,610l., the result would show, that on the Civil Establishment, there was an actual diminution of nearly 7,000l. In the other votes for the Departments at Woolwich, the Medical Establishment and the Professors of the Royal Military Academy, there was a small reduction; in the Military Corps there was the same establishment as last year, and consequently the same charge.—He had only now to invite the attention of the Committee to the Extraordinaries, which included two items, one 79,445l. for the military of store branch, and 14,167l. for furniture and stores for barracks and hospitals. Into the other items he would not enter in detail, as they were small in amount, and of a fluctuating nature; he meant such as the different heads of contingent and miscellaneous charges. There was one item of 18,400l. for the purchase of land at Sheerness, to keep off the erection of buildings which might interfere with the works. The same observation held good with regard to the ordinary and extraordinary service of Ireland; for if the vote to be proposed for this year was merely compared with that of last year, there would seem an excess in the present vote. The charge of last year was only 124,108l, and for this year 128,979l.; but the apparent increase was owing to the transfer of charges to this department. Under the head of barracks there was an increase of 13,873l.; but then 5,400l. of this money was for building new barracks. In Ireland, too, there was an increase of 9,666l. in the barracks, and under the head of stores and rent, 11,000l. less was received this year than the last. As to military stores, too, there was a diminution of 5,622l. He did not think it necessary to trouble the committee any further at present. He had thus cursorily gone over the several heads of the Estimates, aware of his inability to make the statement as lucid as it could have been made by his right hon. friend, who would, he trusted, supply any deficiency he had committed. He would move, "that 70,224l. be granted, for defraying the salaries to the Master-general, the Lieutenant-general, and the rest of the principal officers and clerks belonging to the office of Ordnance at the Tower and Pall Mall, for the year 1829."

confessed he was rather disposed to wave the discussion of these Estimates, as a long time had been spent by the Finance Committee in examining them; and he owned that, by the evidence, very little progress was made to warrant any reduction whatever. The gallant officer, the Secretary at War, had given a decisive opinion on the subject of almost every reduction; and he willingly conceded that the gallant officer had done so with perfect propriety. The difference between these Estimates and those of last year it was undoubtedly very difficult to understand, though on the whole he believed the aggregate increase was not so great as it appeared. He approved of a consolidation of the public accounts: it was desirable that they should be rendered clear and distinct, and each head brought under one view. He was not able, for want of the necessary returns, to make out where additions had been made; but he observed, in some instances, that there was a much greater number of persons included in those items. The clerks of the Surveyor-general, last year, were twenty-nine in number; this year they were increased to forty-seven: the clerks of the Ordnance from twenty-three were increased to thirty-three, and in the storekeeper's department they were raised from seventeen to thirty-two. He had no means, at present, of knowing whether this increase was correct. He regretted extremely to observe, from the expressions used by the hon. gentleman that his majesty's ministers seemed to consider themselves to have reduced to the lowest ebb the department of Ordnance. He said so with great concern, for he readily admitted that in many details, as it was actually constituted, it was far superior to many other departments. But he differed very much from his majesty's government as to the mode in which the business was carried on, and he believed that one-half, if not two-thirds, of the expense of the civil department might be saved. The artillery were now separated from the Commander-in-chief, who knew the officers only, by chance in foreign service; and this would remain so, while there was an intermediate in the person of the Master-general, who stopped all communication. He submitted to the gallant officer (sir H. Hardinge), whether it would not be attended with a great reduction and great benefit to that branch of our military service, if, instead of a separate department, consisting of the Master-general, Lieutenant-general, and other chief officers of the Board of Ordnance, who had duties incompatible with a due attention to the artillery, that corps were placed with a commandant, directly under the Commander-in-chief. The same course he would recommend with regard to the engineers; and thus the whole military branch of the Ordnance might be detached from that department, which would remain charged only with its proper duty of keeping the stores. In India the artillery were so placed, with a commandant of their own under the Commander-in-chief. The divesting of the military branch from the Ordnance would render unnecessary the offices of Master-general and Surveyor-general; and the charge of the department would thus be greatly reduced. The more he thought upon this subject, the more satisfied he was, that this alteration would effect a great saving, as well as improvement in the system. Until the government brought themselves to make this change, he was unprepared to say that any great reduction could be expected in these estimates. He did not deny the merit of the heads of this department, in cutting down from an enormous war-scale of expenditure to one of peace; but he still thought one-half might yet be saved, by placing this branch of the service upon a different footing, Well as the service was at present performed, compared with what it had been, yet the establishments were large and unnecessary. In one department there were twenty-six porters and messengers for the Ordnance-office. What necessity could there be for such a number of messengers, unless to run about from Pall-mall to the Tower? The clerks and officers should be brought from the Tower to Pall-mall, and the establishments consolidated, with a view to prevent unnecessary expense and delay in the transaction of the public business. When such a consolidation should have taken place, at least one-third of the clerks at present employed might be dispensed with. If reductions could be brought out in no other way, he hoped that the revenue would fall short, so as to render retrenchment unavoidable. He wished to see our establishments reduced, not merely because it was more satisfactory to have a small establishment than a large one, but because we should be enabled, by means of such retrenchments, to grant relief to the public in the amount of taxation at present imposed on it. When parliament met last year, nothing was talked of but retrenchment and finance committees to lessen the public expense; but there was now no talk of reductions; and the fact was, so long as the revenue continued productive, we should have nothing like those effectual reductions in the public establishments which could alone afford relief to the country. There was a large portion of this vote of 70,000l. that might be dispensed with. The expense of this department in 1796 was only 18,700l.; now it amounted to 70,554l. He entered his protest against the expense of the Pall-mall department, and thought we might well dispense with that board, which, in fact, was nothing but a store-branch, the whole business of which might be done for one-fourth or one-fifth of the cost at present incurred in supporting it.

observed, that the hon. member for Aberdeen recommended reductions to be made in departments which were precisely those from which the public got something for their money. A consolidation of various departments was recommended by the hon. member. What had been done in this way did not consist in a consolidation, but a transfer of different heads of public business to one department to which they all properly belonged. Not a single clerk was added in consequence of this. The hon. gentleman admitted, when discussing the navy estimates, that savings effected by cutting up necessary branches of expenditure were, in fact, no savings, but decided losses. He could assure the hon. gentleman that such would be the case here. A transfer of the Ordnance department to the Horse-guards must render it less effective than at present. The head of the Horse-guards was sufficiently hard-worked, and had already plenty to do. It was therefore impossible to add the Ordnance to the Horse-guards with advantage to either department.

wished to ask a question with respect to a branch of our colonial expenditure included in the present estimate: he alluded to Canada and the expense of certain works—a canal and fortifications—to be performed there. In the estimates, there was a vote of 67,398l. for Canada; and 4,581l. was set down for Nova Scotia. Although these were large sums, they were but small compared with the amount with the expenditure with which we were ultimately threatened. He now asked, whether the great works in question had been undertaken, and if they were carried to any considerable extent; or whether the votes to which he had alluded were for minor undertakings?

replied, that the works recommended last year had been undertaken and were in progress. The items adverted to were for the continuation of the works commenced last year. The gross sum which parliament was called on to vote on account of these works amounted to 330,000l. for Canada: but of course that expenditure did not take place this year. The votes for works at Halifax and Kingston were the principal which were included in the present estimate. For these purposes about 15,000l. was to be expended at Halifax, and 20,000l. at Kingston. This was 5,000l. more than was taken last year. These works, which were to be continued on the scale of 30,000l. a year, would be finished next year, when that branch of expense would cease. The Ridaut canal was not contained in this estimate. Estimates to a large amount for works in Canada were laid before the Finance Committee; but at the same time it was stated, that there was no intention of carrying the whole into execution. The works were divided into three classes; the first embracing what was urgent; the second including works that were desirable, but not of so urgent a nature; and the third referring to undertakings kept back till a more dis tant period, and made contingent on the spread of civilization, and the exigences of the country. A sum of 900,000l. would have been required to complete the whole of the undertakings contemplated, exclusive of 600,000l. for the Ridaut canal. For 1,500,000l. we should be able to place our colonies in such a state of defence as might be considered complete; but no more than 330,000l. would be asked from the House. The Ridaut canal would most undoubtedly answer every object which government had in view when it was first contemplated; and according to the latest reports of the surveyors, there was no season of the year, except when the waters were frozen, in which it would not afford a perfect water communication, With respect to Kingston and Halifax, it was of the utmost importance, that the undertakings now in progress should be completed.

thought the Ridaut canal not an useless waste, but an extravagant application of the public money. It was an improvement certainly, but one which, though we might make it, there was little doubt would fall into the hands of others.

was not satisfied in what manner the twenty-six messengers were employed in the Ordnance. He believed in one department, over which the gallant officer presided, messengers were employed specially to go from the first floor to the second. In the present instance, 2,415l. was paid to these twenty-six porters and messengers.

observed, that there was a warehouse connected with the Ordnance in Tooley-street; another branch of the department was at the Tower; and a third in Pall-mall. The messengers had to perform no trifling duties, in consequence of this division of the establishment. A considerable saving of postage and other small items was effected by employing these messengers. For instance, one messenger carried letters between Woolwich and Pall-mall at a saving of an expense of 200l. a year; and this was not the only advantage, for a saving of time was also effected; it being possible to obtain answers to the communications on the day they were sent, which could not otherwise be effected. Similar savings were effected by means of the messengers employed between Tooley-street, the Tower, and Pall-mall.

asked, why the communi cation between Pall-mall and Woolwich was not carried on by the military? He should also be glad to know why the Tower department might not be consolidated with Pall-mall? The Finance Committee recommended that the clerks of the Ordnance at the Tower should be removed to Pall-mall, and that in future the former place should only be considered as a dépôt of arms. Why had not the recommendation been carried into effect?

said, it was absolutely necessary that some clerks should remain at the Tower; and this being the case, no material saving could be effected by removing a few of them to Pall-mall.

After a desultory conversation, the several resolutions were agreed to, and the House resumed.