, adverting to the, order of the day for the second reading of the Suitors in Chancery Bill suggested that as it was not probable it could be brought on that evening, it should be postponed to some convenient day.

said, it was his intention to postpone, the measure until, next session. He was the less anxious to press it now, as it formed only a part of a general system which would be introduced with respect to that court: but it was the tension pf government to introduce the measure at the earliest period next session.

expressed his entire concurrence in the postponement of the bill till next session; as he agreed in thinking that there would not be sufficient time to give the full consideration it required.

admitted there was not time to carry the bill through at present; but he earnestly hoped that ministers would give the subject them earliest attention next session, for the state, of the Court of Chancery at present was tenfold worse than its was, when he first introduced the subject to the House. It amounted to a complete denial of justice to the parties.

He said, it was his intention to move, that the duty on British plantation sugar should be reduced from 27s. per cwt. to 20s.; that on East-India sugar from 37s. to 25s.; and that on all other foreign sugar to 28s. The committee were aware, that when the subject was discussed in that House in 1827, his right hon. friend (Mr. Huskisson) had intimated his intention of considering the subject with a view to some reduction. Last year he had endeavored to redeem his promise by bringing the subject before the House; and he was followed by the chancellor of the Exchequer, who, though he had not made any distinct pledge, had left an impression on the mind of all who heard him, that it was his intention to make some reduction of duties in the present session. The subject was, he knew, connected with a variety of ulterior arrangements, involved in the popular representation of other states; but these, and all other extrinsic circumstances, he put out of view on the present occasion. Indeed, from them he intentionally abstained; not because they were without their bearings on the general question, but simply because there would be another time for more regularly introducing such topples and that the proposition, to which he meant to confine himself, was ripe for present decision upon its own intrinsic merits. Without saying, therefore, that the East and West Indies were not deeply involved in the result of this question of duties, he would confine himself to, the single, ground that the reduction of these duties was of great importance to the people of this country. He knew that a question like this, comprehending amount of revenue, would be viewed with caution, and judged according to the consumption of the article which the people were though to be in a condition to bear. In his view, the increased consumption which would follow a reduction of the duties, would far exceed the effect of the reduced rate of duty, and greatly countervail its amount. The present rate of duties upon foreign sugar varied from 27s. to 30s. per cwt., and in some cases from 32s. to 84s. Now, in the mode of affixing and regulating these duties, parliament had adopted the worst parts of the colonial system. It was the object of that system to give the West-India colonists a certain monopoly in the article of sugar, while the result of the arrangements for effectuating it was, to give them the odium of such a monopoly, without any of the means of guarding or preserving, it. The advance of the price of sugar in the home market was of. course intended to stimulate the produce of the colonist—that produce necessarily increased but the moment the article found its way into the foreign market, then thee home price became regulated not alone by the quantity introduced into this country from the colonies, but by the state of those foreign markets. The question of bounties was, he knew, a very intricate one; but if closely investigated, with a view to the calculation of the prices paid for sugar in foreign markets, it would be found that, by some mode of transfer, or arrangement, in the machinery of these transactions, their effect was, to advanced the price sugar upon the consumer at home.—He would not here allude to the argument which had of late been heard, that cheapness of price did not necessarily enhance consumption; but enough for his purpose was it to say, that while in all other articles, the relaxation of duties had been attended by an increased consumption, in sugars, where such changes had not in the same degree taken place, there was no such result, and the consumption, of sugar in this country, during the last twenty years, had in no, degree kept pace with the growth, of the population. In 1802 the consumption was 2,473,000 cwt. in twenty years after it had only increased to 3,234,000 cwt. How evident then it was, that the article was weighed down by some pressure which did not admit the enlargement of its consumption with the obvious increase of the population. The census in 1801 gave to the United Kingdom a population of 15,200,000; that of 1827 gave 24,000,000—the average consumption of sugar at the extremes of each of these periods only vacillated from about 2,500,000 cwt. to 3,250,000 cwt.; While had it gone on as, under a good system, it would and ought, the consumption should have amounted to 4,194,000 cwt. In 1824, the consumption of coffee was 8,455,000 lbs.; in 1827, the consumption had increased to 17,000,000 lbs. The effect of the reduction of duty on a great number of articles had been to crease the consumption of those articles in so great a degree, that the revenue had not only not been injured, but benefited. In 1825, also, the reduction off the wine duties took place, and there again his principle was demonstrate in the augmented consumption of the article. The duties upon French wines produced in 1820, 65,000l; in 1826, 119;000l. and in 1827, 119;500l. In Portugal wines, the increase bore exactly the same proportion to the demand with a reduced duty; for in 1823, they produced 433,000l.; in 1824, 490,000l.; but in 1826, the year after the duty was lowered, they produced 637,000l.; and in 1827, 723,000l. The Spanish and Rhenish, wines showed a similar result. The former, in 1823 produced a duty of 202,000l.; in 1824, 235,000l. in 1825, 390,000l.; in 1826, 345,000l.; and in 1827, 410,000l. On what ground was then, that the sugar market would not, pari passu, produce the same result? He would deny that the consumption of sugar had attained its full degree in this country. It did not hitherto amount to a consumption of 22lb.per year for each individual Great Britain, or of 3lb for each person in Ireland. Was that what it would be, if the supply were placed more within the reach of the bulk of the community? He was satisfied that sugar was of all other things that which would always adjust itself to the extension or contraction of the price in the market, as it did in the two last years, where a little aid was derived from the one season, by the fruit being good, and causing a greater demand for sugar in its process of preservation. The state of the sugar market was ably alluded to in Mr. Irving's letter which would be found in the fourth report of the Finance committee, where he stated sugar to be one of the exceptions to the general improvement of that year's revenue.—Upon these sugar duties it had been said, that if any reduction could be effected, it must be very small, and one not likely to benefit the great bulk of the people. It had even been said, that a reduction of three farthings in the pound on the sugar duties would afford no practical relief. Let them not scoff at this small amount; for to the working man, who was, with his family, dependent upon small weekly earnings; the smallest reduction of price made an important difference. There was, there fore, as far as consumption was concerned, no pretence for saying that a reduction of duty would not, by diminishing the price of the article, range in the market new class of consumers. He admitted the present critical stated of the revenue, and that it ought to be cautiously touched. He knew it had been said, that this tax was collected at a small expense, and at little or no risk from smuggling; all this he readily admitted; nevertheless, it was incumbent on parliament to look at the reason and justice of any portion of the revenue drawn from the country, and he hoped the revenue of Great Britain would never be in so hopeless a state as not to admit of such alteration as a change of circumstances suggested, and a sense of propriety dictated. The right hon. gentleman here entered into a statement to prove that an increase of revenue must result from his proposition, if carried into effect. The West Indians, he thought, were placed in an invidious situation by the present laws; as they had the name of possessing a monopoly which they did not really enjoy; while they were compelled, by the policy of the country to devote much of their capital to the production of this particular article. He begged here to observe, that in considering this subject, he had felt himself bound to make a discrepancy between the duties on East and West India sugars. Not because of any reason of policy for that distinction, for he believed it could not be permanently maintained: he only, therefore, proposed it now, in deference to existing laws and international principles, which had been heretofore considered tenable, and also because he thought it right, in proposing any change, to proceed cautiously. He ridiculed the idea that the West Indians need be afraid of having their markets overwhelmed by East-India sugar, and, quoted the relative amount of their exportations to banish such an apprehension. If there were any grounds of fear upon, that subject they ought to have been before now realized; for the markets of Europe were, in that respect, open to the sugar of the East. It was said, that we should encourage slave cultivation, if we promoted the produce of the islands; but he would show that by indirect means, we were encouraging slave cultivation. Our exports to Brazil last year were to the amount of 3,820,000l., and the imports from thence were 1,380,000l.; the difference being two millions. Now, he wished to know what became of those two millions of money. It was paid for in the produce of Brazil, and carried in our vessels to foreign markets. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving as an amendment, that the duty British-Plantation Sugar be reduced to 20s. that on East-India Sugar to 25s. and that on Foreign Sugar to 28s., with an ascending scale for those of higher value.

said, it was extremely painful to him to have to oppose propositions for the reduction of duties made from various parts of the House, and particularly so, when he knew that such reductions would be attended with great benefit to great bodies of the people.—The House had decided, that a surplus revenue ought to be appropriated to the reduction of the debt; and it was his duty to support the pledge of parliament. In relieving the burdens of the people, the House ought not to forego the greater advantage of sustaining public credit, and of supporting the future energies of the country. He would maintain that cheapness did not necessity imply an mortared consumption. The proposed reduction would only occasion diminution of price to the consumer of three-far-things in the pound of Sugar. It would fall into the pockets of the producer and not into that of the consumer. He denied that any reduction of price in sugar would occasion an increased consumption; for the article was so generally in use, that it could not be much more so. The reduction in the duties upon wine and coffee formed no analogy. Those articles were consumed chiefly by the higher orders, and a reduction of duty increased their use amongst inferior classes. No such argument, however, could be used with respect to sugar; for it was in general use already. In l815, the price of sugar Was 91s. 10d. per cwt. At present the price was 58s. 8d.; and this immense reduction had not occasioned any increased consumption. He calculated that the proposed reduction would increase the consumption by only 500,000 cwt. perineum, which would be no sensible relief to the grower, whilst it would occasion a serious diminution of the revenue.

maintained, that the West-India interest had been long over-taxed and ought to be relieved. The taxation between the West and East India interest was disproportioned. The government had said, that it would relieve the West-India interest from its weight of taxation, when the pressure of the war was over; but since the termination of hostilities, other interests had been relieved from taxes, whilst the West-India proprietors had not received any corresponding relief. Sugar would become a necessary of life, if the high rate of duties did not enhance its price. He denied that an equality of taxation should apply to the West-India and East-India interests. In the West Indies there was a complete monopoly of trade in favor of the English manufacturer, whilst in the East Indies, trade was, with respect to them, perfectly free. The English agriculturists and manufacturers wanted a monopoly of the West-India trade; whilst they wished to enjoy all the benefit of a free; trade to the East Indies. The trade of the continent to the West Indies, by means of high duties, was stopped, and that to north America was entirely prohibited; and whilst the West Indies were thus barred of supply they were crippled in the sale of produce in the home market. America could supply the West Indies with India and China goods cheaper than they could be supplied from Europe; yet that benefit was denied to the West-India planters. He complained that sugars were not allowed to be used in the distilleries, the British grower having a monopoly of that market. It was not fair to call upon one party to give up its monopoly, unless the other gave up its corresponding advantage. He agreed that a reduction of the West-India sugar duty ought to take place, but ho did not approve of the scale proposed. If the people of this country were to have foreign sugars on the principle of free trade, they could not have them introduced in this manner with equality and justice, without, allowing the colonists to have a free trade with all the world for the different commodities they required. When that was the case he would for one readily abandon the West-Indian monopoly; but until that was done he did not think the proposed alteration should be made.

acquiesced in the principle laid down by his right hon. friend, as to the great advantages to be anticipated in most cases of reduction of duty, even as a measure calculated to increase the financial resources of the country. In point of fact, the reduction of duty was often attended by its augmentation as a total. If the reduction now proposed were agreed to, he had little hesitation in predicting that, in a shot period, this deficiency of 500,000l. would be made good by an increased consumption of the article; which would not be confined to Eng- land, but would take place in Ireland. An allusion had been made to the manufacturers of the country, which he would repel; by assuring the House that they would be most willing to forego all the advantages they were entitled to Under the present monopoly of trade to the West Indies, in exchange for a free trade.

said, he had listened to the proposed reduction of duty on West-India sugars with an attention which he always paid to subjects connected with the welfare of our colonies. Hon members erred in supposing that the West India trade had no claims to something like exclusive protection, or that it had received more than sufficient. The West-India planters were compelled to pay a high price for the chief articles of negro sustenance, namely; herrings and salted beef and therefore required a protecting price for their sugar. The mother country prohibited those articles being imported from all foreign states, so that the colonists were compelled to take them at a much higher cost than other countries would supply them at if permitted. The greater part of the West-Indian planters were bound to the merchants of England by pecuniary engagements, which would make it difficult for the former, in the event of any sudden change of system, to get rid of his connection with English commercial houses. Free trade was a very fine thing upon paper; but it was far different when brought, into practical operation, with a due consideration of all the important interests involved in it. With respect to the lowering of the duty on sugar from the east, he should have thought this too early a day for the proposition, putting all considerations of justice out of the question. The whole subject might more conveniently be discussed when the East-India Company's charter came before them. There was one very important consideration connected with our trade to the West Indies, which was not Sufficiently considered: he alluded to the marine commerce of the West Indies, which, in the event of a war, manned out fleet with sailors accustomed to the climate, and thus kept the enemy from our own doors. This was a consideration of a higher description than any connected with mere fiscal regulations. With respect to the admissions of foreign sugars at a duty of 28s., he was of opinion that it would greatly tend to encourage the slave trade. That part of the proposition which went to reduce the duty on West-India sugars, he assented to; but from the other parts he must dissent.

contended, in support of the motion, that the increased trade which it would give rise to with Brazil and the East Indies would more than counterbalance any diminution in the revenue.

was also friendly to the motion. The present enormous duty of 27s. on every 48s. or 50s. worth of sugar operated as a tax upon the larger portion of the consumers of that article, rendering it the duty of the government to lessen so oppressive a burthen upon the poorer classes.

agreed with the chancellor of the Exchequer, that the sugar question should not be viewed solely in relation to the West-India planters but as it bore upon the various interests of the country. It should be looked at with reference to the East-India trade, to the commerce and navigation of the country, and to the interest of the public at large. He was satisfied, that if the House adopted the proposition of his right hon. friend, they would consult the advancement of all those interests, without injury to any one of them. The question did not bear upon one trade or interest only: it was, and should alone be considered as, a general question. It was as a question of general interest, that he (Mr. H.) had treated it two years ago, when it was proposed to reduce the duty on East-India sugar, and when he promised to take an early opportunity of bringing the whole question before the House. His right hon. friend, the chancellor of the Exchequer, fully agreed with him as to the principle, that all the interests involved in the question should be brought under consideration together, with a view to their being newly adjusted; but added, that there was one thing which urged the postponement of such a consideration; namely, the interests of the revenue. His right hon. friend seemed to apprehend, that the proposed reduction would lessen the revenue by 500,000l. annually; arguing, that because the revenue, derived from the sugar duties, amounted now to five millions it should always be five millions. Now, he contended, that the increased consumption consequent upon that redaction, and the increased life which would be given to the commercial and shipping interests by the opening of new channels of trade, would benefit the public at large, far more than it could possibly injure the revenue.—The next point he begged leave to touch upon was the observation of an hon. member, that he believed the balance which his right hon. friend stated to have been made up of foreign sugar inadmissible into the British market, was paid in bullion. He begged the hon. gentleman to recollect, that he had that very day presented a petition, in which it was stated, that out of seventy thousand tons—a balance of foreign sugar obliged to be taken by the petitioners—only five thousand tons found their way into this country, owing to the present law. Now, if this law were amended, sixty-five thousand tons more would, in one instance alone, have been warehoused, and afterwards refined—thus giving employment to those who had none, and affording a profitable out-lay of British capital. In fact, this country might be made the entrepôt of the sugar of the world, and might give large employment to its unemployed capital and operatives, in refining that sugar for the markets of Europe. Then, with respect to the benefit which a reduced price, consequent upon a reduced duty of sugar, would confer upon the working classes, a simple statement would place the subject before the committee in a clear and striking light. In consequence of the present enormous duty on sugar, the working man with a large family, to whom pence was a serious consideration was denied the use of that Commodity. He believed that two-thirds of the poorer consumers of coffee drank that beverage without sugar. If, then, the price of sugar were reduced, it would become an article of his consumption like many other articles which he now used from their cheap price, and which he formerly was unable to purchase. This was the principle that regulated the amount of consumption. When spirits had become cheaper than beer, the former was consumed; so of cotton and other commodities, now, from their low prices, in general use as the clothing of the working classes. Indeed, he was told that the woollen artisans of Leeds were clothed in cotton; the latter being so much cheaper. The hon. member for Rochester was in error, as to the prohibition of foreign vessels from the. West Indies, Foreigners were allowed to trade with our colonies in every article except fish and salt meat, and these were prohibited from a desire to encourage the production of the mother country. Then, as to the non-protection of the West-India trade, of which an hon. member complained: he could only say, that if the East-India sugar were admitted at a bounty of 10s. instead of the proposed duty of 25s., that body might have some reason to complain; but not until then. The West-India interest need not fear any injurious rivalry. As it was, all Europe and America were free to trade in East-India sugar, and yet they took very little of that article; thus proving how groundless were the apprehensions of the West-India merchants, that admitting East-India sugar into the British market, on something like equal terms with their own, would injure their interests. Even when the West-India sugar was open to foreigners, their trade in it was trifling; for the article came to the best market, the British, because it was and must be the best. By the treaty of capitulation, Demerara was free to send her sugar to the Dutch, and yet little or none of it ever went to Holland. We gave the West-India colonists the best return for their commodities; that is, we afforded them the most profitable market for the employment of their capital. And these very advantages, with the pecuniary engagements arising out of them, preventing but few West-India planters from being wholly dependent on the British merchant, would in themselves prevent, at least for a time, those changes in the West-India trade, which some hon. members apprehended. As He was satisfied that the general subject could not be put off for more than one or two sessions, and that in it were involved the public interest, the cornered, and the navigation of the country, he would entreat the chancellor of the Exchequer not to postpone the consideration of so important a question to an indefinite period. There were two points which he begged leave to notice. It had been stated by some hon. members as a kind of hardship to the colonists, that they were compelled to consume British manufactures; but those hon. members seemed to forget that for the very same reason all the world was compelled to consume British manufactures; namely, because they were the cheapest and best. Again, hon. members complained, that the landed interest possessed a monopoly in the making of spirits, from which sugar was prohibited: but barley had been proved to be the best and cheapest material for the distillation of spirits; therefore it was no unjust monopoly in favor of the landed interest to give it a preference over sugar; which, moreover, was never had recourse to for the purposes of distillation, but in seasons of scarcity of corn.

said, he would not have intruded himself on the House, if its attention had not been so pointedly called by the member for Bristol to the Mauritius; and if he did not deem it his duty to take every opportunity to repel the calumnies which were so industriously circulated against that colony. He had stated, in three successive sessions, that not a vestige of that abominable traffic, the slave trade, existed at the Mauritius. He now repeated that assertion, that it had entirely ceased since March, 1821. He never denied, that instances of slave-trading had existed for some time after the Conquest: but every means within the power of the local government had been used to prevent it, that those means had been successful and that the trade had been finally extinguished during his administration. With respect to the fact of the cessation of the slave trade, if the hon. member did not place confidence in his assertion, he might refer to the evidence of his successor, sir Lowry Cole, to the present governor, sir C. Colville, and to the opinions of the commissioners. He deeply regretted, for the sake of civilization, the untimely death of that enlightened monarch, Ramadan; but he felt satisfied, that if the same measures of policy were adopted which he introduced and established, the slave trade in Madagascar would never be revived. Those measures were directed by him more against the foreign than any British slave-trade, by stopping it at its source—the only means legally in our power as regarded foreigners; for he felt much more security as regarded the Mauritius, from the growing moral feeling of the inhabitants as to the iniquity of that traffic and of its incompatibility with their real interests, than from any external repressive means. He was perfectly ready, if the hon. gentleman wished for another committee, the last having completely broken down; but he would submit to the justice of the House, whether it was fair to keep a charge affecting the character of an officer of government, in a high public trust, suspended over his head for three years, by repeated adjourn meats. It was an injustice for which there, could hardly be any adequate remuneration. He confidently looked up to the good opinion of that House, and of his king, and country, as the best reward of his services.

said, that the propositions before the committee were; first, to make a different proportion of duty between East and West India, sugars; secondly, a general reduction of the duty on sugar. In regard to, the first, he had no objection to an entire equalization of the duties on East and West India sugars. He never did object to this; and if a proper equalization could be established, he thought it was the duty of the House to carry it into effect. It would be no injury to the West-India, interest; for, they could not shut out East-India sugar, from the market of the continent. One difficulty was, that the sugar brought from the East Indies was partly refined, or clayed; and therefore, if that state of its manufacture was not taken into consideration, there would be a partial adjudication of the duty With respect, to, the reduction off the whole duty, he was afraid, in the present state of the revenue, to hazard the experiment. He doubted whether, the increase of consumption assumed from a reduction of the duty was not too great; and if so, we were running too great a risk. If the circumstances of the country were rode prosperous, he should have had no objection to incur that risk. On the whole, he thought that the chancellor of the Exchequer had exercised a sound discretion in not making the experiment.

with, reference to what had fallen from the hon. baronet who had expressed such extreme regret that no inquiry had been made into the subject of the slave-trade at the Mauritius, thought it his duty to explain the circumstances which had prevented it. The only, reason why he had not followed up the investigation was, that he had been told by his medical attendant, that if he did he should risk, the destruction of life. His conviction as to the prevalence, of the slave-trade, during the government of the hon. baronet, remained unshaken. He had applied to the colonial department and had offered to government the whole of the information which, at his disposal in regard, to this matter; and still believed that there would be investigation into that traffic, He did not say that it, now prevailed; but he did, say that it had prevailed to an enormous extent, during the government of the hon. bayonet.

said, he had never denied that the slave trade had existed during his administration in the Mauritius; but it had ceased after March 1821, two years and a half before he left the island. He doubly regretted the indisposition of the hon. gentleman; because it had kept a charge of the gravest, nature hanging over his head for three years, and it was impossible to know when the persecution would terminate.

admitted, that the hon. member for Weymouth had offered to government, when he was in office, the proofs which he had in his .possession; but he had not thought it right to take up a charge which was dropped by the individual who originally instituted it. At the same time he was quite sensible of the hardship of the case upon the hon. baronet who was still under an imputation from; which he was not able to relieve himself, affecting, his character, and perhaps even his life.

The committee divided on Mr. Grant's motion; Ayes 60; Nose 98: Majority 38.

said, he wished to make some observations upon this important bill; and in doing so, it was his intention to make a serious charge against an individual well known, to the public. This bill, though professing merely to con solidity and amend the laws relating to the Woods, and, Forests seriously affected the interests of the public. The parts of the bill which he opposed were; first, that which gave the Treasury the power of applying the money of the land revenue to the repairs of Buckingham-palace; secondly, that which allowed, the commissioners to dispose of the Crown estates. Under the; exiting regulations of the Woods and Forests, there; had been great grants and malversations. The transactions to which he alluded took place before the noble lord was at that board. The original estimate for completing Buckingham-house was 252 000l. It was at that time State that it was only in- tended to afford a comfortable residence for the king when he came to town, such as might be required for an opulent nobleman. It was not intended that any large sum should be laid out. Now, however, the estimate was 496,000l. He would refer first to the item of sculpture and the marble arch. The sculpture alone amounted to 34,450l. Mr. Nash, the individual he referred to, had not told the commissioners, that besides this charge there was another of 16,000l. for building it: so that the whole expense of the arch was 50,000l. Mr. Nash had taken credit to himself for saving, in the marble alone 9,000l., and he told the commissioners, that some respectable Houses which imported marble, had stated that they could not have imported it under 26,000l. The House would hardly believe that, in a few days after the report of the commissioners having found its way into a newspaper, one of the Houses referred to by Mr. Nash, Messrs. Grellier and Co. addressed a letter to the newspaper, expressing their astonishment that Mr. Nash should have made use of their name, and declaring that they had given no opinion, and had never even been consulted about the matter.—Another item was the commission of five per cent; and he should like to know why a government architect was allowed to charge a commission of five per cent. It was good policy to make the interest of the public functionary go hand in hand with the interest of the public; but here commission was granted upon the expenditure; and therefore the greater the expenditure the greater the profits of the functionary. The estimate was 496,000l.; but this was nothing like the sum they would be called upon to pay. Neither furniture, nor iron-railings, nor two fountains that were to be made, entered into the estimate. If they were not called upon to pay more than 600,000l. they might think themselves well off. Then there was a gate at Constitution-hill, which cost 34,982l. which was a very beautiful gate. But to what did it lead; To nothing; for, as Mr. Nash was not employed upon it, that gentleman had dug his reservoir directly behind it, and the gate therefore was useless.—He had now a more serious charge to make against Mr. Nash, and nothing but a sense of public duty could induce him to prefer it Let him be allowed to observe, in the first instance, that he should not know Mr. Nash if he met him in the street. The charge that he had to make against Mr. Nash was one of gross and direct fraud on the public. When the government had it in contemplation to effect those improvements which had since been completed in Suffolk-street and Pall-Mall East, proposals for ground were sent in signed in the name of "Edwards." Now, these proposals were in the hand writing of Mr. Nash, and so clumsily was the business managed, that even the name was misspelt. These proposals were acceded to, and Edwards had a lease granted to him at the price at which Mr. Nash, who, for the Woods and Forests, had valued the land. Shortly afterwards the commissioners were told that Mr. Edwards had not capital enough to raise the buildings according to the plan agreed upon. Mr. Nash said, that he would take the leases. He did so; and carrying them into the market, sold them at a considerable profit. Not only was this true, but it appeared also that several plots of land had been sold to the Regent's Canal Company on Mr. Nash's valuation. The company would, of course, have been most ungrateful persons if they had not made some return to Mr. Nash. The company did make him a return, and on the nomination of the company, Mr. Nash was the purchaser of five acres of land, in the neighborhood of the Regent's park, at the price of 362l. per acre. Now, the land which was purchased, at no very great distance, for the London University, cost 4,500l. per acre and he roust say, that it did appear strange to him, when Gown lends sold for 360l. per acre, other lands should sell for 4,500l. He did not wish to take up the time of the House with enumerating other instances; but he must observe, that if these charges were made against a man who was innocent, they were most shameful; but, if they were true, the sharpest vengeance of the law ought to be inflicted on the minion who had so poured poison into the ear of his sovereign. He had merely mentioned these charges and these facts to show that the Treasury ought not to have the power of granting sums indefinite for the expense of public building, and that the Woods and Forests ought not to be allowed to alienate Crown lands, without bringing them into the market, and courting competition. He would add nothing further, except, that he thought the case demanded the serious investigation of the House, both in justice to the government and to the individual. In technical matters he might have fallen into some inaccuracies; but in the facts he was sure he was correct, for his informant had the means of good information on the subject. He gave notice, that he should move for a select committee to inquire into the expenses incurred, and to be incurred, in building Buckingham-palace, and into the manner in which Crown-leases were granted.

said, it was not his intention to enter into the details over which the hon. member had gone, but he could not help observing, that, by the Act of 1825 the Commissioners of Woods and Forests were empowered to apply their funds for the purpose of building and;repairing royal palaces. There certainly was a limit to this expenditure; which might, be seen by the estimate on the table. If the proposed estimate should fall short of the real charge, then ministers would have to come to parliament to supply the deficiency; upon this ground it was, that he trusted the House would consent to go into the committee. The hon. member had attacked the character of Mr. Nash, and had carried his charges over a number of years. Now, it was impossible that he could defend the character and conduct of Mr. Nash so far back as 1816; but there was appoint upon which he felt that he could do that gentleman ample justice; inasmuch as it came pander his own observation. It had reached. him, that a person named Edwards, had applied for a portion of the ground upon which Suffolk-street was to be built; Mr. Nash had himself, valued the land; but it became known to the commissioners that Edwards was privately, connected with Mr. Nash. Another, person, named Shaw, was called in to value the property; and upon that valuation it was that Mr. Nash took it from Edwards. If there was any blame in this transaction it certainly ought not to attach to Mr. Nash but to another quarter. He trusted that after this explanation the House would not refuse going into the committee.

said, his informant had assured him that the individual who gave the second valuation gave it on the formation he received from Mr. Nash. The best proof of that fact was, that the individual was not paid for his valuation.

bore testimony to the fact that Mr. Shaw made the valuation, and had no hesitation in saying that the information which the hon. member had received on this point was false. Whatever faults Mr. Nash might possess, he was quite sure that if there was one man less likely than another to lend himself to a fraudulent transaction, Mr. Nash was that man.

said, that a plan of the buildings to be erected in Pall-mall East and Suffolk-street was drawn up, and it was open to any body to make proposals for the ground, and to have a lease granted, on giving security to erect buildings according to the plan. No proposals were made for a long time, and at length Mr. Edwards sent in his. It was not then known that Mr. Edwards was in any way related to Mr. Nash. He, however, and his colleagues, were informed by a gentleman—than whom there was not a more active and intelligent public servant—of this fact, and that gentleman suggested that another estimate ought to be made. The result was, that Mr. Show was directed to make a new estimate; and when the hon. member stated, that Mr. Shaw valued the land on Mr. Nash's information, he could only say, that though he did not see Mr. Shaw measure the land, yet he knew Mr. Shaw made more than one written report, which differed from in some parts, and agreed in others, with the report of Mr. Nash. Wherever Mr. Shaw's valuation was;higher than that of Mr. Nash, they took the valuation of Mr. Shaw; and whenever Mr. Shaw's valuation was lower than Mr. Nash's, they took Mr. Nash's. For his own part, he was anxious that every transaction which took place while he was in the department should be thoroughly sifted. He believed that no man was more free from the imputation of malversation or fraud than Mr. Nash.

said, it was a remarkable fact, that for the last forty years, whenever a charge had been brought against any person in that House, there had always been found divers gentlemen, rising in divers places, and giving that person the highest possible character. It was clear, however, that, with the exception of the two heads of Woods and Forests, ail were agreed that this said Nash was a most suspicious character. The two gentlemen who had so highly lauded him were conected with his taking certain allotments of ground. It was a very remarkable fact, that they were obliged to call in a regular valuer of property; and if they had not called in this middleman, government would have been outwitted. He had risen to give a square view of the case, with regard to what the chancellor of the Exchequer had declared. His right hon. friend said, "beyond a certain point, we shall not go: After that, the House shall have its way—and I shall call for nothing more." But he feared that his right hon. friend would, notwithstanding, come down to the House again, and tell, not a plain, but a varnished, round-about tale, and ask for a further supply. But he would tell his right hon. friend, that if he paid Mr. Nash a per cent age on all he executed, the best thing he could do would be to bottle up that per cartage, and then tell Nash, that whenever he went beyond his estimate, he should pay the difference out of his commission. If that were done, they might hope for some limit to the expenditure, The only way to check the erection of colonnades, balustrades, arcades, and all those other ades, to which that gentleman was so much attached, was to inform him, that any excess of expenditure over the estimates should be paid out of his commission, and not to give him a single sixpence except on those terms.

said, that of Mr. Nash he knew nothing, but he was satisfied that the charges against him could not rest where they were, and that his character demanded that they should be strictly investigated. The chancellor of the Exchequer had that evening declared, that much as he desired to reduce the sugar duties, the revenue would suffer so deeply, that it was impossible to make any reduction. Now, was this consistent with the idle expenditure of more than half a million on Buckingham-house, at a time when troops were collecting, from every part of the kingdom, to keep down a starving people? This, however, was not all: for if they did not consider what they were about they might commit themselves by the vote of that night to the expenditure of perhaps half a million more. The estimated expense of what had been done was 496,169l. But from; whet they knew, of Mr. Nash's estimates, it was much more likely that it would be ,696,000l. How, indeed, could they expect a result different from that which had taken place in the case of Windsor-castle? There, although the expenditure was, under the control commissioners, it had far exceeded the estimate; and if expenditure so well guarded was increased in that instance, what must it be in the case of Buckingham-house, where it was intrusted, to the discretion of a single architect, without any check or control?

said that Nadir and Mr. Edwards courted the fullest inquiry; He hoped the colonel would adopt some mode by which that inquiry might be entered into. So far as he understood charges, a conspiracy between Mr. Nash, and Mr. Edwards to de fraud the public was alleged. He hoped the hon. colonel would not shelter himself under his privilege and haying made an accusation let it rest. He stood there as the friend of those two individuals; and if the charges, alleged against them were proved to be true, his friendship for them must cause.

said, he felt it his duty as one of the Windsor commissioners, in consequence of the allusion which had been made to Windsor-castle, to make a few observations. That the expense, of repairing that edifice must be great, any one who knew the state of the building could easily conceive. Whether it Was wise or not, in the first instance to restore that national edifice; was another the question. But when those who were employed for the purpose, set about endeavoring to make it a fit residence for the sovereign, it was discovered that there was hardly, a sound wall in the building. Much praise was due to sir Jeffry Wyatville, to whose, good taste the country eves chiefly indebted for the very handsome manner in which the restoration of that splendid pile had been effected. He could assure hon. Members, that Windsor-castle was rather a monument for the people of England look at and to admire, than a gorgeous building for the use of the monarch for in point of splendor, it was not more magnificent than the seats of many noble men And here he must say, in justification of the that he never knew a supply of money to be grudged by them when they saw that there was something good to, show for it. With respect to Buckingham-palace he agreed that charges against individuals should be made with great caution in that. House. But there were admitted circumstances, in the course of these transactions which could not fail to strike gentlemen as disclosing arrange- ments of a very improper nature. Whether the circumstances to which he alluded constituted fraud was another thing. But it appeared to him to be very extraordinary that the person who was the adviser of the sovereign, of the minister, and of the Board of Works, should at the same time be allowed to be a jobber. It was understood that Mr. Nash possessed houses that were on the site of Carlton-house. That, of itself, was a strange circumstance. Mr. Nash's compensation from the public was sufficiently abundant; and, to prevent every possible idea of double-dealing, it should be made a strict rule, that he should have nothing to do with such speculations. From what he had heard of Mr. Nash, he should be inclined to think that he was incapable of dishonesty; but he must say that, as a manager of the public money, and as an exhibitor of taste, he was sorry the public ever had any thing to do with him. And he wondered, from the manner in which he gave his, evidence before committee of that House, that his hon. friend below him, who was always so anxious to support the dignity of the House, did take more notice of the transaction. He saw, in, the estimate, an item of 34,000l. for sculpture for Buckingham-palace. Now, he should, be glad to know who had advised Mr. Nash with respect to this sculpture.

said, that with regard to the expense at Windsor Castle, though much disappointment bad been treated by its excess above the estimate, yet the grandeur of the building, and the recollections which were associated with that noble pile, had so great an influence on his mind, that even if he had known at the time the full extent of expenditure, he, for one, would not have objected to it. He believed however that was impossible to estimate the expense accurately. The whole building was, in fact, not to be repaired but to be restored. With respect to Buckingham-palace, the case was totally different, and the House was, induced to vote money under false pretenses. He understood the architect had said, that Buckingham-house might be made a commodious residence for the, sovereign at a small expense; and there fore that most objectionable spot was selected, for a palace. He was sure, if, the House had imagined that the new palace, without a single article of furniture would have cost nearly half a million of money, they would not have sanctioned such an estimate, nor have consented to place the residence of the sovereign at Pimlico, in the neighborhood of shabby houses, breweries, factories, and steam-engines; with all the filth, and smoke, and dirt, which belonged to that part of the town. That proceeding had raised the price of all these dirty contemptible places at least five hundred per cent. The first estimate was.250,000l. and now it had grown up to within a few thousands of half a million. In the estimate there appeared a very extraordinary item of 34,000l. for sculpture, to ornament a beautiful marble arch. Such an ornament had far better be away from the front of the palace. The stone with which the palace was built, and the fine marble of which the arch was composed, formed no very pleasing contrast. When the Palace was first erected, every body cried out against the construction of the wings like barns. Mr. Nash admitted to the committee that they did not answer his expectation, and that he thought the building as ugly as the committee did. The estimate was 25,000l. for each of the wings; but, being so extremely ugly, they, were pulled down. The feelings of Mr. Nash as an architect might have been somewhat depressed; but it was some consolation to him, that for what he built up, for what he had pulled down, and for what he, built up again, he, received a commission of five per cent If the recommendation of the committee had been adopted, that the architect should receive his commission only on the first estimate, and not on the expense of the correction of the blunders that were committed, much, delay and much of the public money would have been saved. The question then was, what they should do? whether, after expending half a million, they were to stop short, and leave the building unfinished, or go on voting sum after sum, without limit, and thus adding to the prodigal expenditure which they had already witnessed? He believed the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant fairly. He told them he would introduce a limit beyond the expenditure henceforth should not proceed; but then he added, that if that limit should, be exceeded, he would—what?—stop short?— not, but that he would come to parliament again and state the necessity for a further grant; so that in fact we should be just in the same state that we were at present. He would in the committee propose a limit, and as he objected to the expenditure of 34,000l. on sculpture, he would move that this 34,000l be annulled from the grant.

wished to know whether the sum of 496,000l. in the estimate included the sum of 250,000l. got from the fund for the French claims? [Some hon. member observed that it did.] He could not but think that the mode in which the money was applied was most extravagant. It was voted originally with undue confidence in ministers, for which the House ought to take shame; and that confidence had been badly met by those in whom it was reposed. He thought the Treasury were much to blame in not exercising a more effectual control over the expenditure.

said, that he, for one, could not take to himself any of the blame which the noble lord said ought to fall on those who did not object to this grant in the first instance; for he had refused to give his confidence to ministers on the subject. The chancellor of the Exchequer of the time had declared that the expense should not exceed the 250,000l., which he characterized as a God-send. For his own part, he did not blame Mr. Nash, but the Lords of the Treasury. They were the culpable parties, and were responsible for the extravagant expense which had been incurred.

thought Mr. Nash had been hardly dealt with. Before the committee on the subject, Mr. Nash had explained the situation in which he stood with reference to the Board of Works, and had stated that he had no control over those who executed his plans. With regard to the palace, it was in such a state at present that it would not be possible to form an estimate of the money that would be required to complete it. Had any one of his majesty's ministers ever seen the palace? He himself had seen it, and did not think that it could be completed for the estimate now framed. Not a room was plastered. Many of the doors had received only one coat of paint. The ceiling were but half finished; and none of the gilding had been executed. Then there was the furniture. All these things convinced him that the expenditure would be greater than was at present anticipated.

The House went into the committee.

said, that his object was, to limit the expense to be incurred for Buckingham-palace to the sum now proposed. It should be recollected, that he did not come there as if for the first time to ask for indefinite authority to proceed. He found the act before him; and he wished to limit the future payments under that act to the amount now deficient. The responsibility as to the site of the palace did not fall on him and his colleagues alone. It was the adoption of the House; and the House had also sanctioned the situation. It was true that the sum of 250,000l. was first mentioned; but many important items were excepted from that estimate. The arch had also been a part of the original plan. In short, the chief parts of the work, as it now existed, were planned and adopted; and all that he and his colleagues had to do was to consider whether the work was to be carried on to its completion. The right hon. gentleman contended, that to leave the arch unfinished, now that one side of it was completed, would occasion a greater deformity in the whole building than any which the hon. member for Dorset had noticed. He had seen the model of the arch, and he thought it was one which would do no discredit to the nation, He, as well as the first lord of the Treasury, had recently inspected the palace; and though no part of it was finished, he could not allow that it was so very far from completion as hon. members supposed. He would move, that after the word "thereto," the following words be inserted—"And that the sums so applied, under this act, for such alterations and improvements, shall not exceed 150,000l. over and above the sums already appropriated to such purposes previous to the passing of this act."

said, he wished to reduce this sum by 34,450l., the sum proposed to be expended upon the sculpture on the arch. He should accordingly move, as an amendment, that the sum to be expended shall not exceed 115,550l.

After a short conversation, the committee divided: For the motion 91. For Mr. Banker's Amendment 61. Majority 30. The House having resumed, colonel Davies gave notice, that he would tomorrow move for a Select Committee to inquire into the conduct of Mr. Nash, so far as regards the granting of certain leases of Crown Lands.